#staff | Logs for 2014-03-15
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[00:00:29] <audioguy> Good, that gives me some hope. ;-)
[00:01:34] <audioguy> Have you read my notes about this problem with adding the capacity to disallow anyomne not logged in access?
[00:02:29] <FatPhil> I've not dived into the docs yet, I ought to. I noticed there have been a lot of notes taken so far
[00:03:45] <audioguy> There is an area where I tried to gather together everything I could find that was docs of some kind. Much of it is old, much of it is out of date, but reading it - including thigs like the install doc - does help a bit.
[00:04:02] <audioguy> Its still a bit of a mess, just agathering so far.
[00:05:02] <audioguy> What is NOT yet included there is that there are man pages for some of the modules, 'man modulename' in a shell on slashcott will get those.
[00:06:01] <audioguy> The things basically hooks into Apache module system in just about every way possible, handling different phases that Apache goes through itself.
[00:06:55] <audioguy> Are you working on something specific at the moment in slash code?
[00:07:27] <FatPhil> I am not, nope
[00:07:42] <FatPhil> only cloned it yesterday ;-)
[00:08:17] <audioguy> Would you like to work with me on this? At the least, I need someone to look at me 'code guesses' to see if they actually make perl sense. ;-)
[00:08:56] <audioguy> Ah, just yesterday, understand. Days of confusion to follow ;-)
[00:10:50] <audioguy> One perl question I have:
[00:10:51] <FatPhil> Sure, I can always act as at least a teddy-bear, preferably add a second pair of eyes, and certainly try to unravel perlisms.
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[00:13:20] <audioguy> The slash code is in three places. lib64/, share/perl/ and the local slash install. My guess is that the per5 is where the official libs are kept, and the stuff in local/share/perl is application specifc, including children of lib modules?
[00:13:38] <audioguy> Something like that?
[00:14:26] <FatPhil> there's very little logic in where perl modules are placed. see @INC for proof that nobody's decided where stuff belongs
[00:14:52] <audioguy> Ah, well at least I am not alone in my confusion then ;-)
[00:15:16] <audioguy> That SORT OF seems to be the case with slash code. But not always.
[00:15:43] <FatPhil> I'm not entirely sure whether the locations of stuff on the server is standard slashcode, or something one of us set up.
[00:15:58] <FatPhil> Having an apache binary under /srv/ us *just plain wrong*, for example
[00:16:21] <audioguy> Stuff on the server is quite different between slashcott and the main site. Don't know whjy.
[00:16:22] <FatPhil> if there are apache binaries there, god knows what else has been placed there
[00:17:33] <audioguy> You have access to slashcott?
[00:17:38] <FatPhil> I do not.
[00:18:31] <audioguy> You should have. IT is, in my opinion, much more the defaul slash setup, and has the advantage of having the db there too, which is essential to understaning the code.
[00:19:32] <audioguy> pauef72 has been mostly working with css and templates, and the code repository, I have been looking at the code AS INSTALLED, which is a different view. And an important one.
[00:20:10] <audioguy> Routines are called in the main libraries, so you need to be able to look at those in addition to just the slash code.
[00:20:56] <audioguy> We need to get you access, ask mechanicjay. Who unfortunately is afk right now.
[00:21:36] <audioguy> Ples of course we can break slashcott safely. ;-)
[00:23:47] <audioguy> OK, basically, I have what I was hoping for, someone to keep me from going wildly astray on syntax.
[00:24:04] <audioguy> Besides access, anything you need from me or us?
[00:25:16] <FatPhil> not at the moment
[00:25:50] <FatPhil> it's a scary codebase
[00:26:11] <audioguy> Ok, then carry on getting confused by slash code. ;-)
[00:26:50] <audioguy> It would probably be even more scary to me if I actually understood enough of it to BE properly scared ;-)
[00:27:51] <audioguy> We all have a lot to learn.
[00:29:01] <audioguy> people in editing etc want nice enhancements. I just wan to decipher this ancient heiroglyphic language
[00:29:41] <FatPhil> FOrtunately it's not particularly "guru" code. I don't see any syntax that I don't use myself, and I like to avoid the ugliest constructs.
[00:30:28] <audioguy> What does 'm/SOMETHING mean in perl?
[00:32:11] <FatPhil> regular expression matching
[00:32:38] <FatPhil> $var =~ m/things/; is the same as $var =~ /things/;
[00:33:00] <audioguy> I thought it was something to do with regular expressions, but the linenoise doesn't seem QUITE like normal ones, I guess this is 'perl regular expressions'
[00:33:22] <audioguy> Ah, good.
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[00:34:07] <FatPhil> if things might contain '/' characters, you can use any other character to bound the regexp.
[00:35:03] <audioguy> To me, per is like somebody chopped up clib into tiny littel pieces, then randomly change a few things. ;-)
[00:35:07] <FatPhil> Common is m|x/y|, m@x/y@, and a few others. s/// likewise can have the delimiter changed.
[00:35:13] <xlefay> audioguy++ ;-)
[00:35:13] <Bender> karma - audioguy: 6
[00:35:16] <audioguy> Ah, very flexible.And confusing.
[00:35:21] <FatPhil> makes grepping hard
[00:36:13] <audioguy> The comments in the code are a riot, by the way. 'Why is this commented out?' 'I dunno' etc.
[00:36:33] <audioguy> Woth reading the code for its unintentional humor
[00:36:37] <audioguy> worth
[00:37:45] <audioguy> xlefay: and I agree on something. End of the known universe, scheduled tonight. ;-)
[00:38:05] <xlefay> oh I'm fairly sure you and I agree on a lot of things, we just don't discuss those =)
[00:38:24] <audioguy> ;-) Yeah, that's it.
[00:38:48] <FatPhil> No consistency at all in the syntax used:
[00:38:50] <FatPhil> git grep -p '=~\s*m' | sed -e 's/.*=~//' -e 's/^\(...\).*/\1/' | sort | uniq -c | sort
[00:39:10] <xlefay> Only reason I discuss it is because one of us might be able to convince the other one, in which case, one of us is better of in the end ;-)
[00:39:37] <FatPhil> m{, m/, m(, m|, m[, m!, m<, m:, m#, /
[00:39:48] <audioguy> But, but, I thought I was ALWAYS right?
[00:40:07] <xlefay> audioguy: then you have a lot to learn, youngling. ;-)
[00:40:23] <audioguy> Oh, brother.
[00:40:40] <FatPhil> That level of inconsistency tells me it was written by crackmonkeys
[00:40:56] <xlefay> FatPhil: isn't that most of the code available on the Internets?
[00:41:58] <audioguy> FatPhil: You cannot possibly be a real perl programmer, they never admit stuff like that. At least not on Slashdot, they never did. Then again, here we are on Soylent, new world.
[00:42:04] <FatPhil> Yes, 90% of code is shit, just like everything else
[00:42:29] <audioguy> Keep it up and I may have to admit that there is a SLIGHT possibility the C could have some minor flaw.
[00:42:49] <FatPhil> Don't start me on 'char'...
[00:42:55] <audioguy> That is the real truth.
[00:43:35] <FatPhil> My real day job is usually as a C programmer. perl is just one of those things that I use to help my job get done
[00:43:39] <audioguy> no need to start on char: I have personally met 'int'
[00:44:01] <audioguy> Thak god, you had me worried for a moment there.
[00:44:06] <FatPhil> at least you know what signedness it is
[00:44:44] <audioguy> Perl doesn't?
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[00:45:29] <FatPhil> int's signedness is signed. char's signedness is a mystery
[00:45:50] <audioguy> No matter, its really an int, sort of.
[00:46:00] <audioguy> AT least someof the time.
[00:46:05] <audioguy> maybe
[00:46:08] <FatPhil> it is in the family of integer types, yes
[00:46:22] <FatPhil> However, you can't safely pass a char to isascii() for example.
[00:46:50] <audioguy> And get a compiler warning, sometimes. Other times, not...
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[00:47:39] <FatPhil> this is invalid similarly: if(isascii(getchar()))
[00:48:06] <audioguy> I like C though, it is as least POSSIBLE to do sane things in a sane way with it.
[00:48:33] <audioguy> That doesn't actually make any sense.
[00:49:52] <FatPhil> OK, what is this referring to: "certain pages are hard coded in the base Slash Apache module (with an apologetic note from the programmer)."
[00:52:55] <audioguy> Slash can deliver pages either as the result of a script or static .shtml pahes created by slashd. For some, you have a choice for tothers, the coice is made for you, and that is hard coded. It is not possible to change whether authors.pl is used, instead of authors.shtml, because in the apache module it is always forced to the shtml page.
[00:53:40] <audioguy> This is some kiond of hack to deal with some other redirection, where anything of the form /xxx/ is redirected. See the modeul and read it all to fully understand.
[00:54:23] <audioguy> Other pages have switched in the db, or in the setup.
[00:54:30] <audioguy> switches.
[00:55:12] <audioguy> I still have not 100% certainly determined where the /my/ redirection is performed.
[00:55:40] <audioguy> Bu I think it is due to that , if it is treated as a 'page'
[00:56:01] <audioguy> IT is pretty confusing how they define things.
[00:57:18] <audioguy> If you look at CssWork, you can see me trying to figute out where four different redirections are done, all different.
[00:58:15] <FatPhil> something to do with /my/ seems to be handled in sub userdir_handler {
[00:58:50] <audioguy> Except the userdir handles /~user/ stuff
[00:59:11] <audioguy> which is different thamn /user/ stuff. I think. ;-)
[00:59:45] <audioguy> Yo can guess better than I .
[00:59:48] <audioguy> You
[01:02:55] <FatPhil> now I want to punch them in the face:
[01:02:57] <FatPhil> if (($saveuri =~ m[^/(?:%7[eE]|~)] && $uri =~ m[^/~ (?: /(.*) | /? ) $]x)
[01:03:35] <FatPhil> using m[] for a regexp that contains a [] class - fucknuts
[01:05:15] <audioguy> ;-)
[01:05:25] <FatPhil> To be honest, I can't work out what they're trying to do there. The comment and the code seem to disagree.
[01:05:42] <audioguy> Wlecome to 'Hotel California'
[01:06:57] <FatPhil> Not a lovely place
[01:07:15] <audioguy> You can check out, but you can never leave
[01:07:27] <FatPhil> Damn, I've forgotten a lot about mod_perl 1.3
[01:07:41] <FatPhil> Haven't touched it for about 5 years
[01:08:26] <audioguy> I feel so much better. There is a possibility I am not a lousy programmer who can't figure out what code means. ;-)
[01:09:02] <audioguy> It is really kind of insane.
[01:10:28] <audioguy> The comment and the code disagree - you will see that alot. Comments are, at besy, mildly advisory. At worst, downright wrong.
[01:12:22] <FatPhil> # XXX I'll remove these soon -cbrown
[01:12:43] <audioguy> 'dated 2003'
[01:20:02] <FatPhil> well, that hypnotic mess of line noise is beginning to send me to sleep
[01:21:21] <audioguy> Feel free to sleep in our well appointed luxury lounge, here at
[01:21:32] <audioguy> Hotel California
[01:21:50] <audioguy> [music plays]
[01:28:09] <paulej72_afk> I am glad I am not alone in not being able to follow that perl code.
[01:29:48] <audioguy> Notice how we have completely cleared all the -sane- people out of this room. ;-)
[01:30:28] <FatPhil> And I think my socket handling code finally works: http://fatphil.org
[01:30:30] <audioguy> We need to get FatPhil access
[01:30:49] <FatPhil> excess is my middle name
[01:30:53] <FatPhil> oh, you said accesss
[01:30:56] <xlefay> awesome ;]
[01:32:00] <xlefay> essentially, FatPhil I can then just poll the api for whatever I need instead of copying the db & quest files and crap via a cron ;-)
[01:33:13] <FatPhil> yes. tell me what you want. but K.I.S.S.
[01:33:24] <paulej72_afk> !quote 19
[01:33:24] <Bender> Quote 19 - <paulej72> Hey I read NCommander's emails, they are good bedtime reading, puts me right to sleep :)
[01:33:31] <paulej72_afk> !quote 23
[01:33:31] <Bender> Quote 23 - <NCommander> paulej72, For the record, I would just like you to know for now and all time, fuck you, and fuck the horse you road in on
[01:33:44] <FatPhil> what was quote 23 all about
[01:34:29] <FatPhil> n.d. 7 yr old rum mixed with ginger cordial
[01:34:32] <paulej72_afk> I was quoting NCommander repetedly and he was baiting me with a really god one
[01:34:43] <xlefay> FatPhil: yeah, like /quest [ still have to generate the image, but this is how I'm organizing it when it's out of the db ... ignore the "time" it should be stage: http://nerdrpg.xlefay.nl ]
[01:34:51] <paulej72_afk> FatPhil can I have one too
[01:34:54] <FatPhil> ah, life is good, and slashcode is in a different desktop
[01:35:00] <xlefay> You mind if I just shoot you an e-mail tomorrow about it? Might be easier.
[01:35:25] <FatPhil> xlefay: shoot away
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[01:35:51] <xlefay> Awesome, thank you! I appreciate it a lot man, this is going to save so much crap ;-)
[01:35:57] <FatPhil> new bottle of ginger, won't run out - don't get too keen on the rum though
[01:36:05] <FatPhil> Less crap = good
[01:36:39] <xlefay> FatPhil: whenever I find a job and got some money to spare, I'd love to send some your way for you to buy one of those bottles ;-)
[01:37:10] <FatPhil> I will admit now, though, that I don't understand how this latest patch works.
[01:37:25] <xlefay> heh that's all good ;-)
[01:37:34] <xlefay> I can define the port though and all, right?
[01:37:35] <paulej72_afk> did someone kill bender?
[01:37:44] <xlefay> Bender:
[01:37:46] <xlefay> he's here.
[01:38:11] <xlefay> !woop
[01:38:11] <Bender> woop woop woop (\/) (;,,;) (\/)
[01:38:12] <paulej72_afk> he is not in soylent
[01:39:00] <paulej72_afk> or maybe he is not set correctly
[01:39:06] <xlefay> he was muted ;]
[01:39:38] <FatPhil> xlefay: flood coming - here's what I used in apache:
[01:39:42] <FatPhil> <Proxy *>
[01:39:42] <FatPhil> Order Allow,Deny
[01:39:42] <FatPhil> Allow from all
[01:39:42] <FatPhil> </Proxy>
[01:39:42] <FatPhil> ProxyPass /irpg/nerd/ http://localhost:1337
[01:39:45] <FatPhil> ProxyPassReverse /irpg/nerd/ http://localhost:1337
[01:39:55] <FatPhil> config file has this added:
[01:39:56] <FatPhil> httpport 1337
[01:40:00] <xlefay> I'll use it with nginx ;-)
[01:40:18] <xlefay> So what does it do so far?
[01:40:26] <xlefay> just /players "to be implemented"?
[01:40:57] <FatPhil> I'm *very* sloppy about parsing the query - all I look for is "GET /(recognisableword) ", and fuck the rest of the input
[01:41:27] <xlefay> aah ok ;)
[01:41:45] <xlefay> Well in this case, there's no reason for my to put it out for the public to use. Can I force it to bind to an IP ?
[01:41:54] <xlefay> as in, one IP only?
[01:42:18] <FatPhil> I'll pull the top-3 code into a helper function if need be, adn then get players to use that.
[01:42:33] <FatPhil> at the moment localhost is hard-coded, which is a bit lame
[01:42:40] <xlefay> That's good though ;)
[01:43:03] <FatPhil> However, taht's the easiest way to work around the port-80 issue. Apache does the port 80, and then knows where to send/get the real data
[01:43:24] <FatPhil> unless you want to setcap the script, which I don't
[01:43:25] <xlefay> So you can pass a var into the function (e.g. '3') for the top3 and for /players/ get every player? ;)
[01:43:54] <xlefay> nah, I've got both apache & nginx running, nginx for the IP on which SN stuff runs and Apache on my other IP, don't want to mess around with my apache configs (cPanel and all)
[01:44:03] <FatPhil> xlefay: I don't know how it will work - I'll just try to make it not seem braindead
[01:44:19] <xlefay> although nerdpg.xlefay.nl does run behind my apache. ;)
[01:44:31] <xlefay> Alright. Thank you! :)
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[03:00:24] <NCommander> FatPhil, audioguy so I've done some work, and while the mod_perl is fugly, its actually NOT as bad as I first thought
[03:00:29] * NCommander is looking at how hard it is to seperate slash from apache
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[03:36:13] <FatPhil> I've done mod_perl 2 more recently than mod_perl 1
[03:39:02] <matt_> hi NCommander, got your staff email. are you already offline, or will you be around for a little while?
[04:08:55] <mattie_p> matt_ you just reminded me I need to shoot you something. It'll probably be tomorrow as I'm finish up homework tonight and then turning in early (I hope)
[04:09:20] <matt_> anything specific?
[04:09:38] <mattie_p> stuff, and things, things and stuff
[04:09:50] * matt_ has finally finished reading all of the irc logs, articles, comments, nuclear letters, etc. from last week
[04:10:02] * matt_ feels his brain melting
[04:10:07] <mattie_p> my gosh, man, you are a trooper if you can do that
[04:10:43] <mattie_p> had some thoughts on business, incorporation, and such, and wanted your feedback
[04:10:50] <mattie_p> but I never wrote it.
[04:10:55] <mattie_p> Look for it tomorrow
[04:11:15] <matt_> actually, I was going to ask NC if he wanted to have a quick discussion about it here...
[04:11:23] <matt_> ...but it looks like I missed him.
[04:11:43] <mattie_p> yeah, he was in Singapore last I heard
[04:11:54] <mattie_p> email might be the best way to go for the next couple of days.
[04:12:32] <mattie_p> I'll try to shoot a quick note out in about 10 hours or so (after sleep) so that we can get the dialogue started
[04:13:26] <matt_> i had some thoughts too (old thoughts made somewhat obsolete by learning more about the way things are organized)
[04:13:44] <matt_> I'll see if I can send you an email first :-)
[04:14:07] <mattie_p> sounds like a plan, then
[04:14:23] <matt_> ok. enjoy your homework.
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[04:48:48] <FortuneTeller> drcool, blimpie, sub sammiches
[04:52:26] <drcoolbp> hellow there
[04:52:38] <drcoolbp> whos talking at me through the bot now...
[04:57:07] <mattie_p> like anyone can possibly know that
[04:57:13] <drcoolbp> it was you!
[04:57:40] <drcoolbp> what's going on mattie_p?
[04:57:49] <mattie_p> not much drcoolbp
[04:57:59] <drcoolbp> I gutted the wiki a bit today...
[04:58:03] <mattie_p> just wrapped up my homework for tonight, got a little more to do tomorrow
[04:58:09] <mattie_p> yeah, I noticed
[04:58:14] <drcoolbp> is it okay?
[04:58:18] <mattie_p> I joined #wiki today and it was blowing up
[04:58:21] <mattie_p> with alerts
[04:58:33] <mattie_p> I didn't get a chance to look it all over
[04:58:35] <drcoolbp> yeah sorry about that...
[04:58:44] <mattie_p> I'll probably just get some emails or comments or something
[04:58:53] <mattie_p> saying it was censorship :)
[04:59:16] <xlefay> Of course it was, haven't you noticed we're in China.
[05:00:10] <mattie_p> you know, its funny. Even on /. his comments started at +1 and got modded down to 0. Mine started at 2 and went to 4
[05:01:47] <drcoolbp> was that him posting as AC too? A commenter accused him of that
[05:02:10] <mattie_p> not to my knowledge.
[05:02:41] <mattie_p> as I pointed out a while ago, certain admins can indirectly see which ACs are posting from the same IP address (at least, the apparent IP)
[05:02:58] <mattie_p> most of the ACs were unassociated with any previous account
[05:03:09] <mattie_p> not that it matters anyway, it was all FUD
[05:03:12] <drcoolbp> yeah
[05:03:21] <drcoolbp> hey so do we need the most people in dev?
[05:03:39] <mattie_p> maybe?
[05:03:55] <mattie_p> dev and editors are going to be our biggest teams, I think
[05:04:26] <mattie_p> I heard back from applesmasher by the way. He's cool with what is going on, and will join a team in a little bit
[05:04:34] <mattie_p> once each team lets everyone know what they need
[05:05:10] <FortuneTeller> no it wasnt/is not mattie
[05:06:19] <drcoolbp> ?
[05:06:25] <drcoolbp> .op
[05:06:25] -!- mode/#staff [+o drcoolbp] by FortuneTeller
[05:06:31] <drcoolbp> I'm missing something...
[05:07:41] <FortuneTeller> you're missing bacon
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[05:09:07] <mattie_p> drcoolbp you up for a while?
[05:09:18] <drcoolbp> maybe another hour
[05:09:19] * what-if-i hands drcoolbp some bacon
[05:09:27] <drcoolbp> mmm
[05:09:29] <drcoolbp> nom nom
[05:17:07] <mattie_p> drcoolbp you in command?
[05:17:17] <drcoolbp> sure
[05:17:20] <mattie_p> ok
[05:17:21] <mattie_p> .deop
[05:17:21] -!- mode/#staff [-o mattie_p] by what-if-i
[05:18:13] <drcoolbp> anyone know how to use the url shortener?
[05:19:07] <mattie_p> it only works for soylent sites
[05:19:22] <drcoolbp> yes, I want to shorten a wiki url
[05:19:29] <mattie_p> ok, so go to http://sylnt.us
[05:19:45] <mattie_p> put the page you want shortened in the URL block
[05:20:00] <mattie_p> if you want a custom url then plug that in next, otherwise you get what you get
[05:20:01] <drcoolbp> oh I see, cool
[05:20:18] <mattie_p> yeah, its pretty simple once you use it once or twice
[05:20:36] <mattie_p> back in a few
[05:21:31] <drcoolbp> k
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[05:31:15] -!- mode/#staff [+v MrBluze] by what-if-i
[05:44:51] <drcoolbp> well I guess you can only shorten a url once...
[05:45:12] <drcoolbp> I tried to do a custom one, but it stripped a letter out...
[05:45:22] <xlefay> yep too much letters then
[05:46:30] <MrBluze> so are we really supposed to change our nicks so each staffie doesnt have a repeat first letter?
[05:46:46] <xlefay> don't think so
[05:47:04] <MrBluze> ok, just wondered - cause it's an odd request
[05:47:17] <xlefay> yea
[05:48:35] <drcoolbp> yeah I was confused people wouldn't understand who I am but it hasn't been a problem yet..
[05:48:50] <xlefay> So who's drcoolbp?
[05:48:52] <drcoolbp> He said it jokingly but I don't mind it now..
[05:48:55] <drcoolbp> lol
[05:49:27] <drcoolbp> xlefay: can we kick out that custom URL so I can try another?
[05:49:39] <xlefay> just make a new one
[05:49:44] <drcoolbp> it won't let me
[05:49:54] <drcoolbp> already exists in database
[05:50:28] <xlefay> oh...
[05:50:30] <xlefay> ask Landon
[05:52:21] <drcoolbp> okay thanks
[06:17:47] <drcoolbp> I gotta get off to bed
[06:17:54] <xlefay> have fun
[06:17:56] <drcoolbp> I need to get up in 4 hours
[06:17:59] <drcoolbp> thanks!
[06:18:26] <xlefay> gl!
[06:19:04] <drcoolbp> = )
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[06:34:22] <mattie_p> !quote 1
[06:34:22] <Bender> Quote 1 - <paulej72> I can't wait to get the full version
[06:34:24] <mattie_p> !quote 2
[06:34:24] <Bender> Quote 2 - <NCommander> mattie_p: because I've been riding you like a cheap slut and think you could use some downtime?
[06:34:29] <mattie_p> keeper
[06:34:32] <mattie_p> !quote 3
[06:34:32] <Bender> Quote 3 - <cosurgi> wow. I think I just learned how to use quotes.
[06:34:34] <xlefay> definitely
[06:34:36] <mattie_p> !quote 4
[06:34:36] <Bender> Quote 4 - <cosurgi> !grab cosurgi
[06:34:37] <xlefay> !quote NCommander
[06:34:37] <Bender> Quote 0 - <NCommander> mattie_p, I dunno, are you going to mail me an explosive device if I have you edit ANOTHER 3k novel?
[06:34:41] <Bender> Also in quotes: 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 35
[06:34:45] <xlefay> jezus christ
[06:34:49] <xlefay> I ain't sitting through all that
[06:34:52] <mattie_p> roflomg
[06:34:56] <mattie_p> !quote 5
[06:34:56] <Bender> Quote 5 - <NCommander> Cats go physco when you light them on fire
[06:35:03] <xlefay> NO SHIT LOL
[06:35:03] <mattie_p> wtf????
[06:35:10] <mattie_p> !quote 6
[06:35:10] <Bender> Quote 6 - <stderr> mattie_p: OMFSM! I'm so tired I misread that as "mattie_p pees in NCommander's direction :)"...
[06:35:23] <mattie_p> !quote 7
[06:35:23] <Bender> Quote 7 - <NCommander> I SHALL SMOOTHER THEM WITH PAPERWORK
[06:35:28] <xlefay> SMOOTHER LOL
[06:35:32] <mattie_p> there's your smoother one
[06:35:35] <mattie_p> !quote 8
[06:35:35] <Bender> Quote 8 - <NCommander> shit
[06:35:41] <mattie_p> keeper right there
[06:35:51] <mattie_p> I need to write these down
[06:35:55] <mattie_p> !quote 9
[06:35:55] <Bender> Quote 9 - <NCommander> !grab NCommander
[06:36:02] <mattie_p> !quote 10
[06:36:03] <Bender> Quote 10 - <NCommander> You know, I noticed most of my quotes have to do with mattie_p. I smell the start of a wonderful bromance.
[06:36:07] <mattie_p> !quote 11
[06:36:07] <Bender> Quote 11 - <stderr> NCommander: No, you shall only do me once... But do me right... Not: <NCommander> !todo stderr -> stderr_dk
[06:36:16] <mattie_p> !quote 12
[06:36:16] <Bender> Quote 12 - <NCommander> mattie_p, true
[06:36:19] <mattie_p> !quote 13
[06:36:19] <Bender> Quote 13 - <NCommander> Right, next on the TODO list: personalities for the staff
[06:36:31] <mattie_p> lol omg
[06:36:34] <xlefay> rofl
[06:36:48] <mattie_p> !quote 14
[06:36:48] <Bender> Quote 14 - <paulej72> !grab paulej72
[06:36:58] <mattie_p> obviously we've all tried that one
[06:37:01] <mattie_p> !quote 15
[06:37:01] <Bender> Quote 15 - <NCommander> xlefay, somehow, this is your fault. I dunno why it is, but it is ...
[06:37:05] <xlefay> is not!
[06:37:27] <mattie_p> !quote 8
[06:37:27] <Bender> Quote 8 - <NCommander> shit
[06:37:36] <xlefay> !quote 16
[06:37:36] <Bender> Quote 16 - <xlefay> I'm getting used to getting the blame, I'll distribute it fairly.
[06:37:43] <xlefay> heh
[06:37:46] <xlefay> oh damnit
[06:37:48] <mattie_p> hahah
[06:37:54] <mattie_p> !quote 17
[06:37:54] <Bender> Quote 17 - <NCommander> You know, I can threaten the editoral staff with !quote 1
[06:38:00] <xlefay> LOOOL
[06:38:15] <mattie_p> !quote 18
[06:38:15] <Bender> Quote 18 - <NCommander> xlefay, meh, honestly, I hope no one reads my emails so I can pretend that we have agreement and push through whatever it is I want with no discussion what's so ever.
[06:38:23] <mattie_p> !quote 19
[06:38:24] <Bender> Quote 19 - <paulej72> Hey I read NCommander's emails, they are good bedtime reading, puts me right to sleep :)
[06:38:25] <xlefay> no-one does..
[06:38:39] <xlefay> or rather, no-one gets to finish them!
[06:38:50] FoobarBazbot|afk is now known as FoobarBazbot
[06:38:53] <mattie_p> I try to... and then... shit happens
[06:38:56] <mattie_p> !quote 20
[06:38:56] <Bender> Quote 20 - <drcoolbp|afk> nice to see some official discussion in here finally
[06:39:00] <mattie_p> !quote 21
[06:39:00] <Bender> Quote 21 - <NCommander> I thought we were talking about intellectual masturbation
[06:39:07] <mattie_p> !quote 22
[06:39:07] <Bender> Quote 22 - <NCommander> I need to be less quoatable
[06:39:10] <mattie_p> !quote 23
[06:39:10] <Bender> Quote 23 - <NCommander> paulej72, For the record, I would just like you to know for now and all time, fuck you, and fuck the horse you road in on
[06:39:17] <xlefay> ^ didn't get that one
[06:39:35] <mattie_p> the horse you rode in in part? or all of it
[06:39:38] <mattie_p> ?
[06:39:46] <xlefay> ALL OF IT LOL
[06:39:48] <xlefay> !quote 24
[06:39:48] <Bender> Quote 24 - <drcoolbp> well I'm eating, if for 5 minutes you all could be less funny I'd really appreciate it
[06:39:55] <xlefay> LOL
[06:39:58] <xlefay> !quote 25
[06:39:58] <Bender> Quote 25 - <NCommander> drcoolbp, I'll write a 20k email saying why we must not be funny, how we must not be funny, and why funniness is bad, then FatPhil will destroy it all in a single paragraph
[06:40:09] <xlefay> !quote 26
[06:40:09] <Bender> Quote 26 - <xlefay> Please, let's not.
[06:40:13] <xlefay> hey
[06:40:18] <xlefay> !quote 27
[06:40:18] <Bender> Quote 27 - <NCommander> I'm feeling a bit castrated here
[06:40:25] <xlefay> don't get that one either rofl
[06:40:26] <xlefay> !quote 28
[06:40:26] <Bender> Quote 28 - <NCommander> xlefay, someone hasn't been inducted to the world of my little pony :-P
[06:40:39] <xlefay> Seriously... it's not as bad as I thought after Googling it.
[06:40:40] <mattie_p> I think we need to start having quote conversations
[06:40:43] <xlefay> !quote 29
[06:40:43] <Bender> Quote 29 - <NCommander> mattie_p, argh, you had to introduce facts into this!
[06:40:46] <xlefay> yes yes, we do
[06:40:48] <xlefay> !quote 30
[06:40:48] <Bender> Quote 30 - <NCommander> mattie_p, well, that's why its a secret test of character. If it was a public test of character, it wouldn't be super useful :-P
[06:40:49] <mattie_p> all we do is through quotes at each other
[06:40:52] <xlefay> !quote 31
[06:40:52] <Bender> Quote 31 - <NCommander> I realize mattie_p might have been a nice looking private, but that was a long time ago.
[06:40:56] <xlefay> LOL
[06:41:01] <xlefay> !quote 32
[06:41:01] <Bender> Quote 32 - <xlefay> not to mention the amount of paperwork, did they hire NCommander for that?
[06:41:04] <xlefay> heh...
[06:41:12] <xlefay> what is this for unfairity
[06:41:14] <xlefay> !quote 33
[06:41:15] <Bender> Quote 33 - <NCommander> mattie_p, you know, if you were in the military, I'm honestly shocked your bitch about my emails. I'm no where as verbose as the Army Field Guide to Zipping Up Your Shorts (TRM-001-Revsion7)
[06:41:18] <xlefay> !quote 34
[06:41:18] <Bender> Quote 34 - <xlefay> there's a guide for that?
[06:41:24] <xlefay> .... seriously, guys?!
[06:41:26] <xlefay> !quote 35
[06:41:26] <Bender> Quote 35 - <NCommander> Uh oh
[06:41:28] <xlefay> !quote 36
[06:41:28] <Bender> Quote 36 - <LaminatorX> Does it know perl?
[06:41:29] <xlefay> !quote 37
[06:41:29] <Bender> Can't find quote 37
[06:41:32] <xlefay> oh go
[06:41:33] <xlefay> god
[06:41:38] <xlefay> we've seen them all now
[06:41:39] <mattie_p> where is my pubic face one?
[06:41:46] <mattie_p> is that in #soylent?
[06:41:53] <xlefay> you mean #31?
[06:42:04] <mattie_p> no, it was better
[06:42:09] <xlefay> no clue
[06:42:42] <matt_> it wasn't captured ;)
[06:42:47] <xlefay> * NCommander uses nail polish remover to erase mattie_p's pubic face
[06:42:49] <xlefay> ?
[06:43:00] <matt_> the pubic face one...
[06:43:16] <mattie_p> yes, that one
[06:43:20] <mattie_p> it is quote 14
[06:43:25] <mattie_p> but actions aren't grabbed
[06:43:28] <mattie_p> just speaking
[06:43:30] <mattie_p> nograb
[06:43:49] <mattie_p> it was supposed to be 14
[06:44:04] <xlefay> so grab me:
[06:44:06] <xlefay> * NCommander uses nail polish remover to erase mattie_p's pubic face
[06:44:17] <mattie_p> !grab xlefay
[06:44:17] <Bender> Added quote 37
[06:44:28] <xlefay> I'll edit it in the file later when I regain SSH allowance
[06:44:33] <mattie_p> cool
[06:44:39] <mattie_p> that's the one I wanted anyway
[06:44:43] <mattie_p> no grabsies
[06:44:51] <xlefay> (e.g. when I wake up, and not being intoxicated)
[06:44:56] <xlefay> !grab mattie_p
[06:44:56] <Bender> Added quote 38
[06:45:00] <xlefay> that was a grabsies!
[06:45:25] <mattie_p> yeah, but now everyone will wonder what they missed unless they check the logs
[06:45:28] <mattie_p> nope
[06:45:50] <mattie_p> hrm. let me check something
[06:45:53] <mattie_p> !quote shit
[06:45:53] <Bender> Quote 8 - <NCommander> shit
[06:45:58] <mattie_p> excellent
[06:46:07] <mattie_p> !quote pubic
[06:46:07] <Bender> Quote 37 - <xlefay> * NCommander uses nail polish remover to erase mattie_p's pubic face
[06:46:25] <mattie_p> !ride
[06:46:34] <mattie_p> !quote ride
[06:46:34] <Bender> No quotes found with the text 'ride'
[06:46:42] <mattie_p> the fuck there isn't
[06:46:47] <mattie_p> !quote 1
[06:46:47] <Bender> Quote 1 - <paulej72> I can't wait to get the full version
[06:46:49] <mattie_p> !quote 2
[06:46:49] <Bender> Quote 2 - <NCommander> mattie_p: because I've been riding you like a cheap slut and think you could use some downtime?
[06:46:53] <xlefay> !quote slut
[06:46:53] <Bender> Quote 2 - <NCommander> mattie_p: because I've been riding you like a cheap slut and think you could use some downtime?
[06:46:55] <xlefay> ;')
[06:47:22] <mattie_p> I'm going to have to start a db of my own ... even if you won't
[06:47:49] <xlefay> Oh I'll transfer these quotes to a real db that's for sure
[06:48:06] <xlefay> but the bot itself doesn't use it and _untill_ that darned thing gets to github updated and all... I won't modify it
[06:48:23] <mattie_p> fair enough
[06:48:24] <xlefay> I'll just set up a cron job to fetch the files, parse 'm and throw 'm into a db.
[06:54:47] <mattie_p> matt_ I saw your email, I'll hit you up tomorrow, looks like you beat me to it
[06:55:17] <matt_> sounds good. many possible ways to move forward. (just need to choose one :)
[06:56:02] <mattie_p> I agre
[06:56:06] <mattie_p> *agree
[07:20:44] <mattie_p> who is on duty right now? need to turn over command
[07:21:38] <mattie_p> .op
[07:21:38] -!- mode/#staff [+o mattie_p] by what-if-i
[07:22:03] mattie_p changed topic of #staff to: need a commander. Next staff member .op and assume control
[07:38:37] <mattie_p> .deop
[07:38:37] -!- mode/#staff [-o mattie_p] by what-if-i
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[08:47:21] <MrBluze> hello?
[08:48:32] <MrBluze> if no staff member responds, i assume command
[08:48:36] <MrBluze> 30 seconds :)
[08:48:57] <MrBluze> .op
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[11:35:22] <FatPhil> "morning" all
[11:36:23] <MrBluze_Cmd> hi FatPhil
[13:33:17] MrBluze_Cmd is now known as MrBluze|zzz
[13:34:42] <MrBluze|zzz> FatPhil: can u be in charge now
[14:30:29] <FatPhil> I can now.
[14:33:12] <mattie_p> good. I will be afk most of the day, on email only
[14:50:35] <FatPhil> .op
[14:50:35] -!- mode/#staff [+o FatPhil] by what-if-i
[14:51:58] <FatPhil> I can do 4hrs, but I have a beer-tasting session this evening
[15:03:53] <mattie_p> ahh, excellent
[15:03:56] <mattie_p> enjoy that
[15:04:22] <mattie_p> have a 6-hour workshop today so I'll be on email only
[15:07:20] FatPhil changed topic of #staff to: Commander Sat 13:30-17:30 UTC = FatPhil
[15:07:52] <FatPhil> Hopefully some Americans should be awake/active by then
[15:16:34] <mattie_p> I'd imagine so. I'm up and about and I live in Denver. We'll get some in here soon
[15:16:44] <mattie_p> If not, then just abandon ship when you need to
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[16:01:41] <FatPhil> xlefay: don't pull - bugs in latest stuff I pushed there
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[16:07:33] <janrinok> hi guys
[16:11:08] <FatPhil> arvo
[16:15:34] <janrinok> hi FatPhil, how are you?
[16:19:05] <FatPhil> fine. working on IdleRPG, as always ;-)
[16:19:48] <janrinok> going well?
[16:20:27] <FatPhil> one feature, one bugfix, and plenty more to add
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[16:21:11] <janrinok> lol
[16:21:35] <janrinok> Will it ever be finished, or are you always thinking of more things to add?
[16:21:39] <FatPhil> The bot now serves HTTP! http://fatphil.org
[16:22:00] <FatPhil> Next feature to add is for it to serve Gopher!
[16:22:13] <janrinok> I get a 503 on that link.
[16:22:26] <FatPhil> And more http responses
[16:22:49] <FatPhil> ooops, yes, sorry, on the main branch for the bugfix, need to rebase onto feature branch...
[16:31:26] <FatPhil> There also seems to be an issue with apache not bothering to retry after it's got a 503.
[16:32:31] <janrinok> got it now though thx
[16:35:49] <FatPhil> be warned - the links don't work. If you get a 404, then that's good!
[16:37:16] <janrinok> 502 - proxy error
[16:37:34] <janrinok> good enough
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[17:30:28] <NCommander> NET ACCESS
[17:30:28] <NCommander> YAY
[17:53:41] <xlefay> NCommander: btw, we've determined nginx is used for SSL @ SN, I wonder if there's a reason that Apache isn't doing that (perhaps because it's old and safety concerns?)
[17:54:13] <NCommander> xlefay, are we actually connecting port 443 to anything
[17:54:16] <NCommander> We got bugs telling us we don't support SSL ...
[17:54:27] <xlefay> Yeah.. SSL works, but not if you try to sign in
[17:54:46] <NCommander> xlefay, .... that smells half baked
[17:54:49] <xlefay> e.g. you are logged in, connect to https, you get signed out - try to sign in, get forwarded to http:// and not signed in (prolly to do with the cookie)
[17:54:59] <NCommander> Yeah
[17:55:00] <xlefay> http://web-sniffer.net ;-)
[17:55:02] <NCommander> More slash shit tobreak
[17:55:20] * NCommander looks forward to when we can officially ticket the Gopher support box
[17:55:37] <xlefay> I'm going to eat some and then back job hunting -_-"
[17:56:06] <xlefay> bbl
[17:57:05] <FatPhil> job, job, what is job?
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[18:04:50] <audioguy> Half baked stuff need to be turned off.
[18:05:53] <audioguy> There is debugging code enabled in the init script for varnish that is specifically labeled 'DEBUG CODE DON'T ENABLE IN PRODUCTION' It's a 60 second job to comment it out.
[18:20:23] <FatPhil> you shouldn't really be bouncing between http and https
[18:24:50] <xlefay> Well it seems to me that the https works fine.. it's just Slash that doesn't play nice, the only real question I have at this point, why isn't Apache handling SSL?
[18:25:25] <FatPhil> OK, I can commander a bit longer - my beer-tasting's been cancelled :-(
[18:29:48] <xlefay> audioguy: '* Broken https configuration' that isn't true, SSL works fine itself. Read my previous message.
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[18:45:30] <xlefay> http://soylentnews.org <--- awesome.
[18:54:14] <xlefay> !quote paulej72
[18:54:14] <Bender> Quote 1 - <paulej72> I can't wait to get the full version
[18:54:18] <Bender> Also in quotes: 14, 19, 23
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[18:55:55] <paulej72> !quote 23
[18:55:55] <Bender> Quote 23 - <NCommander> paulej72, For the record, I would just like you to know for now and all time, fuck you, and fuck the horse you road in on
[18:56:10] <xlefay> !quote 13
[18:56:10] <Bender> Quote 13 - <NCommander> Right, next on the TODO list: personalities for the staff
[18:56:11] <xlefay> ftw.
[18:58:22] <FatPhil> xlefay: http://fatphil.org
[18:58:30] <xlefay> LOL
[18:58:42] <xlefay> I know that one
[18:58:43] <paulej72> !quote 19
[18:58:43] <Bender> Quote 19 - <paulej72> Hey I read NCommander's emails, they are good bedtime reading, puts me right to sleep :)
[18:58:53] <paulej72> !quote 23
[18:58:53] <Bender> Quote 23 - <NCommander> paulej72, For the record, I would just like you to know for now and all time, fuck you, and fuck the horse you road in on
[19:00:48] <audioguy> xlefay - I did see your comment earlier. If https is dependent upon nginx and does not allow logins, it is a broken setup. Slash and apache already have a means of doing this built in. Apparently it is not working. It needs to be fixed, instead of usiing hacks like using nginx as a workaround. 'Broken' to me means 'not working as intended'.
[19:01:49] <xlefay> My primary guess is that for whatever reason it was chosen not to use Apache because either the SSL is outdated or w/e or because Apache is more heavyweight than nginx; also, as I understand it, Varnish doesn't do SSL.
[19:02:39] * FatPhil is now doing food prep, should take off me captain's hat
[19:02:43] <FatPhil> .deop
[19:02:43] -!- mode/#staff [-o FatPhil] by what-if-i
[19:02:54] <paulej72> It may have something to do with apache 1.3 particulars and how it may interact with varnish.
[19:02:55] <audioguy> All of which constitute a 'hack' not a fix.
[19:03:02] <xlefay> Thus nginx makes sense to a certain degree, in which case (unless any of the above is false, still doubting the Apache + SSL outdated crap) - nginx makes sense since it hits varnish internally and not apache directly. In which case, nginx & SSL aren't broken, it's just Slash
[19:03:49] <paulej72> FatPhil: who is your replacement?
[19:04:03] <xlefay> .op
[19:04:03] -!- mode/#staff [+o xlefay] by what-if-i
[19:04:14] <xlefay> I'll do it for a lil bit, got nothing better to do then job searching anyway
[19:04:22] <audioguy> Then slash needs to be fixed. IT is our main application, our business depends upon it.
[19:04:43] <paulej72> ok xlefay I can take a spell when you tire of it
[19:04:57] <paulej72> I'll be here all day
[19:05:20] <xlefay> I think the main reason for nginx is, that we want to hit cache as much as possible, so nginx ssl <-> varnish <-> apache makes sense to a degree (since varnish as I understand it, doesn't support SSL) ... in which case, SSL isn't broken.. unless I'm missing something here?
[19:05:25] <FatPhil> I'll be hanging around still, but in the kitchen on and off
[19:05:32] <xlefay> paulej72: that's fine, just let me know if you already want to take it, it's all the same to me
[19:05:41] <FatPhil> we might head out for a movie later, so can't resume role
[19:05:48] <xlefay> ok
[19:06:02] <paulej72> OK. I'll let you know xlefay
[19:07:55] <xlefay> audioguy: if we can establish that nginx is indeed the proper thing to use, we can scrap that off the list before anyone else fiddles with it
[19:08:35] <audioguy> Ok, consider this for a moment:
[19:09:01] <audioguy> Right now the main server is loaded enough it is using a little swap.
[19:09:28] <audioguy> Running tow complete webservers on that machine may well be contributing to that.
[19:09:41] <audioguy> But here is the more imortant point:
[19:10:58] <audioguy> If you cannot use https to log in, it is pretty much useless. If it is not useful to protect passwords, all it is doing is protectin the content from being seen. Content that is already perfectly piblic.
[19:12:05] <audioguy> So what we are actually offereing here isn nothing useful. All we can do is ay 'we have https'. But it is not USEFUL as https, it is providing no real function, other than allowing use to say 'We have https'.
[19:12:18] <audioguy> The illusion of security without the substance.
[19:12:30] <audioguy> It would be better to just turn it off.
[19:13:54] <xlefay> Before assuming the webservers are responsible, there are only two and nginx is set up in such a way it doesn't use a lot (since it simply hits varnish, which may on occasion be unneeded since people signed in could just hit apache directly, bypassing varnish = saving resources);
[19:14:17] <xlefay> Also, yeah https is pretty useless at this point but it is vital for many users. Isn't it just a cookie that's messing up?
[19:15:33] <audioguy> I don't know waht is messing it up, I had nothing to do with settimng that up or testing it.
[19:17:23] <xlefay> I think we should look into that then, if it's a silly cookie we could potentially fix that easily, in which case that's all fixed. As for swap, there can be many reasons for that. My first guess would be varnish storing things for a long time that aren't used often.
[19:17:24] <audioguy> 'Only two' webservers?More than one on the same machine is extremely rare. Webservers run a a master and child setup to preserve memory and processor time, so yes, running two is using some serious reseources.
[19:18:37] <xlefay> nginx barely uses any and it's not that uncommon anymore, nowadays a set up as nginx <-> apache is not that odd
[19:19:55] <audioguy> Tell me where you see this in a major production environment, on a single production machine?
[19:20:25] <xlefay> both really. I believe multiple hosting control panels also have the option build in nowadays
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[19:21:07] * xlefay notes he also runs two webservers at the moment... but that's to separate my own crap from SN stuff
[19:21:10] <audioguy> You are taliking about cloud shit, where they try to have eveything possible available for people to use.
[19:21:36] <audioguy> This is a production machine. Not a test machine.
[19:21:51] <xlefay> I'm not talking about test machines.. I'm talking about actual production machines
[19:22:15] <xlefay> Anyway it doesn't matter, we're obviously not going to see eye to eye on this. I don't care if it's right or now, all I care about is things working.
[19:22:29] <xlefay> _and_ nginx in this case actually makes sense.
[19:22:38] <audioguy> Point me to one where both are running at the same time on a production machine, running a serious application. RUNNING, not 'available'.
[19:23:28] <audioguy> I simply don't believe you can back up this. ;-)
[19:23:32] <xlefay> Sigh. You really expect me to point you somewhere for what? So I can prove you wrong and me right? And after I do that, you'll still argue against it. There's no point whatsoever to even bother.
[19:23:34] janrinok|afk is now known as janrinok
[19:24:07] <xlefay> Let me point you at the hundreds of tutorials people made: https://www.google.nl
[19:24:15] <xlefay> Go look at a few, that should prove my point enough
[19:24:24] <audioguy> You say something is common, I say it is not. You can easily prove me wrong by telling me where you see this. If you do, I will say you are right.
[19:26:48] <audioguy> I repeat: actual production environment. Lots of things can be done for test purposes, etc.
[19:28:22] <paulej72> we ran a multiple department web server back in the day where each department had its own apache and mysql intance running so one could not fuck up the other. This was in the days before VM were popular.
[19:28:22] <xlefay> You do realize it's practically impossible to prove since nginx generally hides apache entirely, right?
[19:28:52] <xlefay> .. hence the tutorials to establish it's more widespread than you believe
[19:29:19] <FatPhil> What is the problem to which having 2 different webservers is the solution?
[19:30:13] <xlefay> FatPhil: nginx [ssl] <-> varnish [cache] <-> apache
[19:30:38] <xlefay> I guess the solution zford was trying to make it to prevent hitting apache from nginx directly, to save _resources_ instead of wasting them
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[19:30:46] <FatPhil> I use reverse proxy in apache for lots of things (including irpg, now), but noly to hide things that are not webservers.
[19:32:29] <xlefay> varnish <-> apache | nginx <-> apache <- doesn't save resources as | nginx <-> varnish <-> apache | also apache running SSL directly, would also forgo the caching of varnish and again be a waste of resources
[19:32:36] <audioguy> I looked at the google search, they are using nginx as a proxy in front of apache. But why would I want to do that in a reak production environment, ON THE SAME MACHINE, when I was already running a proxy (varnish) in this case.
[19:33:07] <audioguy> Norammly I would not even have a cache or proy on the same machine in a production environment.
[19:33:23] <audioguy> normally, proxy, etc ;-)
[19:33:25] <xlefay> In this case.... because Varnish doesn't support SSL (unless I'm mistaken) _and_ using https directly via apache would be a waste of resources for static pages.
[19:33:51] <xlefay> .... that's the best guess as to why nginx <-> varnish <-> apache... how hard is this to understand?
[19:36:02] <audioguy> I am pointing ot simplt that while it is -possible- to use varnish, apache, and nginx on the same machine, there are simpler less resource intensive ways to do this.
[19:36:56] <xlefay> Which way are you proposing?
[19:37:53] <xlefay> Don't we have a private network between our VMs @ linode?
[19:38:01] <audioguy> If varnish will not allow https to work, use something that will.
[19:39:20] <paulej72> xlefay: yes there is a private network, but it is open to all linodes, so it should be encrypted between boxes
[19:39:44] <audioguy> I suspect all this is complicated by the cloud stuff as well.
[19:40:01] <audioguy> Yeah, exactly - paulej72 has it.
[19:40:27] <audioguy> That sharedness would interfere with https.
[19:40:32] <FatPhil> At least if each layer does only one trivial thing, then diagnosing what's going wrong might be simpler.
[19:40:50] <FatPhil> In some way, it's the unix way.
[19:40:53] <xlefay> btw, I'm getting the info that ssl isn't supported from: https://www.varnish-cache.org
[19:41:05] <audioguy> Exactly. Don't keep piling hack upon hack.
[19:41:37] <FatPhil> depends if they're "hacks", or "useful layers"
[19:41:39] <audioguy> I believe people do this with squid, I have used squid but not https with it.
[19:41:41] <xlefay> paulej72: so there's no actual virtual private network between the nodes themselves.. that's just silly.
[19:42:05] <xlefay> I've only used squid as a cache proxy locally, when I set it up for my school back in the day
[19:42:38] <xlefay> err, paulej72: to be more specific, as in "our own nodes" .. I suppose VPN magic could do the trick but.. that's not really need in this situation
[19:42:51] <audioguy> And for me, the other way around, as a reverse proxy to help distribute loads.
[19:43:06] <paulej72> xlefay: I have no details on the actual boxes, but I think you are correct. since mysql is the only thing on the other box it was easier just to encrypt that traffic
[19:45:25] <xlefay> Squid would be an option but... again, would it be as effective as varnish?
[19:45:38] <xlefay> s/again,//
[19:45:50] <audioguy> At any rate, the simple fact for me is that the current setup is not working as intended, and not actually doing anything useful. Whatever solution is found, should be thoroughly tested on a NON production box first. Not on our main setup.
[19:46:19] <paulej72> fyi https://www.varnish-cache.org
[19:46:21] <audioguy> I don't know, I found it pretty darned effective in the past.
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[19:46:57] <audioguy> Usually competing programs tend to stay pretty close to neck and neck.
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[19:47:39] <xlefay> paulej72: I read that yea
[19:47:46] <paulej72> does anyone know if slash is dependent on varnish in some way
[19:48:14] <xlefay> paulej72: it is not. We're just using it because otherwise the load would be too much.
[19:48:43] <audioguy> As I was told, we are effectively using it that way on slashcott. I see nothing in the code to indicate any dependency on varnish.
[19:49:05] <audioguy> The setup docs do not list it as a requirement.
[19:49:09] <paulej72> I would be happy to change to something else even just to git rid of the guru mediation errors
[19:49:11] <xlefay> As for nginx, it works and I'm fairly sure it's proven itself by now. This issue in itself is not nginx's fault. It lays with Slash somewhere which means it doesn't matter what we switch to unless that's fixed it won't work.
[19:49:48] <xlefay> (i do agree we need something better, e.g. squid if that's performent enough)
[19:50:07] <xlefay> .. but I'd rather see a quick fix (as would many others I assume) to get ssl logins and crap working in the first place.
[19:50:12] <audioguy> Look at no point did I say anything putting down nginx. Two fo ANY server si the problem.
[19:50:36] <xlefay> No, but it is the proper course of action in the long run
[19:50:37] <audioguy> Slash is stuck with apache, deeply dependent.
[19:50:59] <xlefay> ^ because of that
[19:51:14] <xlefay> Although.. I'd prefer to see Slash losing that dependency I fear we won't have such luck.
[19:51:42] <audioguy> The problem with quick fixes is that they tend to stay forever. A quick glance though slash code provides ample evidence of that. ;-)
[19:52:25] <xlefay> Btw, do we want to use Apache 2.2 or 2.4 (once we get the apache 1/mod_perl shit fixed)? I've heard that 2.4 is pretty much the highest performing apache version so far but I haven't tested it that myself.
[19:52:59] <xlefay> audioguy: I agree, that is a problem but in this case we would be fixing something in Slash that needs to be fixed - and nginx would be the "workaround" correct?
[19:53:15] <xlefay> although... I'm starting to wonder if it's actually slash in the first place..
[19:53:34] <paulej72> xlefay: as far as I am aware modperl is not available on apache 2.4
[19:53:35] <xlefay> e.g. nginx ssl requests non-ssl to varnish... that might be the problem, and that may cause the non SSL stuff?
[19:53:46] <xlefay> paulej72: ah k, that's unfortunate
[19:54:45] <xlefay> audioguy: <form action="//soylentnews.org/my/login" -snip-> <-- that means it depends on the protocol .. so it must be the cookie, do you know where that code is at Slashcode?
[19:55:14] <paulej72> also 2.4 changed all of the config file language. So it is a no trivial conversion between 2.2. and 2.4 in both just the files but the knowledge the admins need to pick up
[19:55:27] <audioguy> paulej72 is more likely to know that one than me, I am sure it is easily found though
[19:55:32] <xlefay> 2.4 is pretty neat though
[19:55:50] <xlefay> paulej72: do you know where the sign in code?
[19:55:53] <xlefay> .. is
[19:56:19] <audioguy> It is in login.pl, in a templatee loaded by that file.
[19:56:25] <audioguy> er, code.
[19:56:36] <xlefay> k, got it
[19:56:46] <paulej72> the main code is in plugins/Lognin. I would need to check where the actual cookie is generated
[19:57:43] <xlefay> 'bakeUserCookie' but that's simply an uid and something else...
[19:57:49] <audioguy> The problem with ssl is that ity is specifically written to work machine to machine, proxies completely screw that up.
[19:57:52] <xlefay> that still doesn't say how it's actually set.. wow this is a frikkin' mess
[19:58:11] <xlefay> audioguy: correct, proxies shouldn't normally not even get in between afaik
[19:59:32] <audioguy> If this were my decision, we would have real machines on a secure internal network and logins would be handled on a separate https computer. The requirements are so low for logins a bloody 'SheevaPlug' could do it.
[20:00:56] <xlefay> Personally, I'd just have two beast of machines at separate locations, have VM's on that, hot failover, etc... That seems the most economical and savest way
[20:01:56] <xlefay> That would mean we could spin up dev servers whenever we need it, create snapshots, return to a certain point, etc..
[20:02:35] <xlefay> also the ssh proxy I read earlier about seems like a single point of failure? e.g. that machine goes down you can't access the others without something called "lish"?
[20:03:34] <audioguy> Yeah, that is a boneheaded idea designed to allow NCommader to login from dicey hotels, ;-)
[20:04:17] <xlefay> He should probably look into mosh then ;')
[20:04:30] <FatPhil> mosh good
[20:04:44] <xlefay> fuck man... you guys really weren't shitting when you said this was terrible code
[20:04:53] <audioguy> Right now, any half decent cracker could get in, in seconds. He just needs to make friends with the right people ;-)
[20:05:11] <audioguy> Welcom To Hotel California
[20:05:11] <xlefay> Does anyone of you have bleach? My eyes would be most thankful.
[20:05:48] <xlefay> I'm trying to figure out where the cookies are properly set... but there's a few files and nowhere does it mean a cookie domain or whatnot.
[20:05:50] <paulej72> xlefay: i ran out
[20:06:08] <audioguy> I have gone through three distinct phases with this code:
[20:06:14] <audioguy> 1. thisis a nightmare
[20:06:15] <xlefay> LOL paulej72
[20:06:22] <xlefay> Wait we even have an API?
[20:06:32] <xlefay> http://soylentnews.org guess that doesn't work so well..
[20:06:37] <audioguy> 2. dig deeper, well, maybe not so bad, really modular, could bve fixed up
[20:06:58] <audioguy> 3. Dig even deeper JESUS CHRIST what were they thinking.
[20:07:25] <audioguy> Maybe will change again as I dig deeper. ;-)
[20:07:55] <janrinok> Listening to you guys - I am ever so pleased to be a humble ed. ;-)
[20:08:17] <xlefay> God what were they thinking
[20:08:29] <audioguy> Eds: the only people here who actually seems to have thier shit together, at the moment. ;-)
[20:08:40] <janrinok> its an illusion...
[20:08:43] <paulej72> no it is what were they smoking and can I have some
[20:09:14] <audioguy> Well, I don't go into your irc. Don't want to watch the sausage being made.
[20:09:31] <xlefay> https://github.com what's that?
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[20:14:08] <xlefay> Anyone can shed some light on what 'bless $var, $var;' means?
[20:14:52] <stderr> man perlmod can... Or one of the 1000 other perl man pages. :-)
[20:15:14] <paulej72> xlefay: thanks just below you highlighted code is the my menu redirects. ALL of them.
[20:15:32] <FatPhil> marks the class of the variable
[20:16:08] <xlefay> stderr: I know.. | paulej72: ;) | FatPhil : ok, thx
[20:17:21] <FatPhil> bless $var, $class;
[20:17:32] <audioguy> paulej72: it may not be the ONLY place.
[20:18:00] <FatPhil> Note, there's *nothing* special about '$self', it's just what people like to call the object once it's been passed to one of its methods.
[20:18:09] <paulej72> audioguy: as always that is my fear and it looks like you are correct
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[20:21:19] <audioguy> But that is the best so far. In apache, this is the handler for the userdir phase of apache. I think there is a least one other in apache, but I may just be remembering this one.
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[20:21:48] <xlefay> When you try to sign in via SSL, it actually works .. but you get redirected to non-ssl and your cookie gets broken.. this could very well be a "safety" feature of sorts, no?
[20:22:47] <xlefay> If you use the wrong username/password it simply keeps you on SSL and gives you an error.
[20:26:23] <audioguy> Actually what you justy described is partially how the slash code deliberately works. It allows only admin and logged in users to use ssl.
[20:26:52] <xlefay> https://github.com
[20:27:52] <audioguy> paulej72: there are I believe, now at least four different places where redirects are done. And oneof them redirects anything in /xxx/ form, so SOMEWHERE it is decided that my is different, perhaps just by order of the modules execution.
[20:29:08] <xlefay> hmm... could this be even simpler than we think? e.g. https (nginx <-> ... what IP does nginx give to varnish? ... varnish <-> apache)
[20:30:52] <audioguy> In theory, I THINK the way this is supposed to work, it that varnish is able to pass through https to go directly to the apache server, for admins, and loggedn in users, if they use https. In THEORY, nothing else should be required.
[20:30:55] <xlefay> audioguy: could you check nginx's vhost config to see if it passes X-Forwarded-For and if Varnish even cares for that?
[20:31:42] <audioguy> But giving ALL users https access would make varnish completely useless. It would just be routing, no cacheing.
[20:32:01] <xlefay> yeah, think that's why nginx was used to pass through varnish
[20:32:36] <audioguy> But ANY cache is useless in that case.
[20:34:01] <xlefay> If nginx does send x-forwarded-for and varnish doesn't pick that up and forwards that (and instead forwards the [local] ip from nginx) it may get things messed up in slashcode (e.g. does it use the DB for storing session id's and associate that with IPs?)
[20:34:16] <xlefay> Without caching I'm fairly sure the server would crumble under the load :-/
[20:34:28] <xlefay> that's probably why this "workaround" was created in the first place
[20:37:49] <paulej72> i was testing on slashcott and i can't get it to stay on the https pages
[20:37:52] <audioguy> Slash actually has the ability to run multiple instances of itself, on multiple machines, which could be used for load balancing and probably solve the https problem. Istead of putting hacks on top of stuff we do not yet fully understand, I would like to take the time to do it right.
[20:38:45] <audioguy> I am pretty sure it would crumble too. ;-)
[20:39:13] <audioguy> Are you logged in as admin?
[20:39:53] <xlefay> I'm not asking for a hack, I'm looking at possible causes also outside of slashcode itself with the current production set up... but knowing the nginx config & the varnish configs would make that a whole lot easier.
[20:40:17] <audioguy> One thing - i was halfway through making rediredects on pages when ran into problems on slashcott - you ma be running into those, and they are not https redirects.
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[20:44:46] <xlefay> I'm guessing slashcode doesn't have unit tests either
[20:45:05] <audioguy> Man that xlefay, what a joker. ;-)
[20:45:37] <xlefay> How so?
[20:45:44] <FatPhil> xlefay - regarding the https: -> http: switch, and the cookie almost certainly not then working, I presume that's because the cookie's marked as a secure cookie, so it wouldn't get sent in the clear?
[20:45:56] <xlefay> https://github.com seems like a real extensive and intensive test
[20:46:10] <xlefay> FatPhil: https://github.com
[20:46:18] <FatPhil> (however, I know bugger all about https)
[20:47:41] <xlefay> I'd say your right but I've only dived into slashcode for an hour or so..
[20:49:05] <xlefay> but FatPhil that cookie gets set, everything works but it gets squatted after you get redirected to http.. so I'm guessing something in the login code triggers a function that squats the process because nginx doesn't give an x-forwarded-for to varnish or varnish doesn't pass nginx's header through to apache.. but without those configs that's just another theory
[20:49:41] <FatPhil> and this is where having too many links in the chain counts as a negative
[20:50:18] <xlefay> I wonder if slashd logs that kinda thing
[20:50:31] <xlefay> "suspicious logins" or whatever.
[20:51:09] <audioguy> The logs are FULL of errors. I wold like to fix these, fix the foundation, before we worry about the color of the paint.
[20:51:30] <xlefay> I am however lost on the part "what a joker" is that another American saying or is that just to denote some type of stupidity on my part?
[20:51:32] <audioguy> Code errors, unitialized variables, all sorts of things.
[20:51:54] <xlefay> Bah, one wonders how something like this could have survived for so long.
[20:53:11] <audioguy> No, it just means that if there ARE any tests, they are likely dated 2003 and seriously out of date. And that the code base is spewing out so many errors constantly that we hardsly need to run a test suite to find them....Not a slam on you at all.
[20:53:40] <xlefay> aah thank you for clearing that up. American sayings/slangs are rather unclear most of the time, to me anyway
[20:53:41] <audioguy> I wonder is that it is somehow running AT ALL right now.
[20:53:47] <audioguy> My wonder
[20:54:01] <xlefay> If it is, it's a wonder itself ;-)
[20:54:51] <xlefay> From the few tests I've seen, they simply load the module or echo it's being skipped... which isn't very awesome.
[20:54:51] <audioguy> Where are you xlefay?
[20:55:06] <audioguy> Country
[20:55:11] <xlefay> I guess the code is so tied into each part, it's difficult to make proper unit tests
[20:55:44] <xlefay> The Netherlands
[20:56:19] <audioguy> Oh, well English is not even your native language then.
[20:56:43] <audioguy> The home of my forebears, the Netherlands.
[20:57:07] <xlefay> No, it isn't although I generally understand it quite well I've noticed that people here tend to use sayings and other things I generally don't know about, quite the learning experience. :)
[20:57:08] <FatPhil> Not sure I follow this logic in xlefay's last link: ""slashdot.org" is an invalid domain". If the cookie says "Domain=slashdot.org", then that will be treated as .slashdot.org. At least according to this from 2009: http://stackoverflow.com
[20:57:08] <audioguy> Should hve stayed there ;-)
[20:57:51] <xlefay> FatPhil: aah you missing the JS.. I was highlighting two lines that specifically mark the cookie as secure.
[20:58:10] <audioguy> The cookie spec is actually a mess, and that is one of the problem areas.
[20:58:17] <xlefay> FatPhil: $cookiehash{-secure} = 1 if $constants->{cookiesecure} && Slash::Apache::ConnectionIsSSL();
[20:59:49] <xlefay> if I understand something that was on IRC before, it's like: 'if cookiesecure && connectionisssl(): cookiehash_secure = true' that's what the code represents, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems somewhat backwards how it's written in perl.
[21:01:28] * xlefay notes he's definitely going to read a book about Perl... just gotta find a good one, suggestions anyone?
[21:03:15] <xlefay> audioguy: I'd say most of the code is a problem area. It seems extremely disorganized and filled with disinformation not to mention the countless of "what the hell is this supposed to do" parts
[21:03:55] <audioguy> We have aslot of work to do. I jusy wnt to fix the bleeding, first.
[21:03:58] <xlefay> I am intrigued though.. it does mean the code that we all hate so much powers something we all like so much ;]
[21:04:24] <audioguy> yes, crazy, isn't it?
[21:04:32] -!- mode/#staff [+v Cyprus] by xlefay
[21:04:36] <xlefay> yea it is
[21:04:37] * Cyprus blinks
[21:05:25] <xlefay> I'm curious what that soap api is supposed to do
[21:05:40] <audioguy> CMDR Taco said in an interview he was upset because people insulted his code. ;-)
[21:06:25] <xlefay> I'd be terrified some psycho would come after me if I had written that code
[21:06:34] <audioguy> It has somenting to do with rss, or oe of the other things like that, maybe even ads. I can't remember.
[21:06:36] <xlefay> hell, I wouldn't be surprised if someone would turn into a psycho after reading it
[21:07:02] <xlefay> soap.pl does 505 error @ sn
[21:07:12] <audioguy> I am pretty sure it is not any any kind of active use right now.
[21:07:42] <audioguy> Approximately have the admin interface has errors, including 404s
[21:07:45] <audioguy> half
[21:08:13] <xlefay> Wow....
[21:08:43] <audioguy> A lot of stuff having to do with the d2 interface, and ad network stuff, I think.
[21:09:07] <audioguy> Some interfaces to some services, I don't know what exactly they are.
[21:10:35] <xlefay> So if I understand this right, each Perl package/module is supposed to be decoupled. It does seem like the crap in slashcode is tight coupled
[21:11:28] <audioguy> It is like a spiderweb. there is often no one place you can go to find a certain functio, it is spread between modules, in ways that rarely make much sense to me.
[21:12:32] <xlefay> also the duplication of code is just bad
[21:12:41] <xlefay> exactly
[21:12:48] <audioguy> And there are tnigs like many functions that are exported, so you see getblah() and cannot tell what module the function is in without looking through lots and lots of them.
[21:13:27] MrBluze|zzz is now known as MrBluze
[21:13:31] <MrBluze> thought:
[21:13:44] <MrBluze> how possible is it to reprogram functions, relying just on what is in the db?
[21:15:00] <xlefay> Well you don't want to rewrite functions unless they return the exact same thing. As for new functions... well not sure if that's even needed
[21:15:32] <audioguy> Well, anything is possible in code. It is not practical to rewrite the whole codebase though.
[21:15:38] <MrBluze> well it's to rewrite
[21:15:56] <MrBluze> not all, but if some key functions are unweildy because of being spread out
[21:16:01] <audioguy> This is more about the system design than the design of individual functions.
[21:16:14] <MrBluze> yeah that i did notice when i looked at the code
[21:16:32] <xlefay> The code is definitely disorganized, even a non-perl monkey can see that
[21:16:32] <audioguy> That is alwasy the hardest thing to fix.
[21:17:19] <FatPhil> xlefay: in theory modules are decoupled, in practice there will be global variables violating that, and horrible inter-dependencies between modules
[21:17:41] <FatPhil> has someone created a use/require dependency tree for the codebase yet?
[21:17:44] <xlefay> I'm surprised they have a PSQL db layer... I wonder if Slash would even fully work using PSQL.
[21:17:49] <MrBluze> globals remove the requirement to think and plan
[21:18:12] <audioguy> No FatPhil, feel free ;-)
[21:18:18] <xlefay> FatPhil: pretty much one of the common problems with many languages
[21:18:50] <FatPhil> As soon as I turn strict warnings on in irpg - there will be 2 solid days of just fxing slippiness
[21:18:58] <FatPhil> abd that's only 2.5KLOC
[21:19:21] <FatPhil> fixing sloppiness, that is
[21:19:37] <xlefay> yea
[21:25:03] <FatPhil> The first 2 lines of code I write when writing perl code are "use strict qw(vars refs subs);" and "use warnings;". Always. No exceptions. Ever.
[21:25:29] <audioguy> what does qw( mean?
[21:25:42] <FatPhil> "word quoting" - makes a list from a set of words
[21:25:50] <Cyprus> its a quick way to arrayify a list of objects
[21:26:06] <audioguy> Ok, good, thought it was something like that.
[21:26:25] <audioguy> Most of this code does have strict at top.
[21:26:25] <FatPhil> qw(a b c) === ("a", "b", "c")
[21:26:58] <audioguy> Splitting an array into pieces.
[21:27:32] <FatPhil> creating an array, when you were too lazy to use all the punctiation
[21:28:12] <Cyprus> ^^
[21:28:15] <audioguy> All over the place in this code, meaing is fairly clear from context though
[21:28:23] <audioguy> meaning
[21:30:13] <stderr> FatPhil: I usually start with #!/usr/bin/perl
[21:31:00] <audioguy> HA! stderr. 'genius' ;-)
[21:31:23] <stderr> I used to use use strict; and use warnings;, but for a while I have used use common::sense; instead.
[21:31:56] <FatPhil> stderr: pah! comments aren't code any more than blank lines are!
[21:32:01] <audioguy> No wonder my perl code never works. ;-)
[21:32:30] <audioguy> They are when you are paid per line. ;-)
[21:32:38] <FatPhil> stderr: your comment implies that you never write any modules, as modules won't have that header
[21:33:28] <stderr> No, it doesn't... I said "I __usually__ ...".
[21:34:12] <MrBluze> if the world was run by programmers...
[21:34:35] <xlefay> MrBluze: there be more "religious" wars?
[21:34:42] <stderr> For a module, I wouldn't start with use strict/warnings/common::sense anyway. I would start with package...
[21:35:03] <MrBluze> u'd find 'turn left for Sydney #although there are more traffic lights this way' on road signs
[21:35:31] <stderr> xlefay: Those wars would be fought on the bitfields...
[21:35:38] <xlefay> !grab stderr
[21:35:38] <Bender> Added quote 39
[21:36:46] <stderr> Time to go to the store before they close... BRB...
[21:37:15] <xlefay> "return $life;" ?
[21:37:32] <MrBluze> gosub( life );
[21:37:45] <xlefay> goto life;
[21:37:52] <MrBluze> u have to return, so it's gosub
[21:38:12] <xlefay> I expected to have been stoned by now :P
[21:38:14] <MrBluze> jmp life ... ... ...
[21:38:25] <MrBluze> 0xLife
[21:38:46] <MrBluze> mov 0xShopping, 0xBasket
[21:39:09] <stderr> MrBluze: You're not making any sense...
[21:39:28] <xlefay> if (isCalling($life)) { break; break damnit! } something like that MrBluze? :)
[21:39:53] <MrBluze> well yeah but
[21:40:05] <xlefay> You're such a geek, MrBluze.
[21:40:22] <xlefay> oh MrBluze btw
[21:40:29] <xlefay> pm?
[21:40:32] <MrBluze> sure
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[22:25:45] <mechanicjay> audioguy: are you around?
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[22:32:47] <audioguy> yes, sorry...
[22:33:28] <audioguy> mechanicjay: Was actually reading Sotlent. ;-)
[22:33:43] <audioguy> Soylent.
[22:34:45] <mechanicjay> np, just wanted to thank you for getting the System Administration framwork up on the wiki, I've been doing a braindump of everything I know with regards to the different servers.
[22:35:40] <audioguy> Just got started onit, not very complete yet. But AWESOME that someone who is in a better position to do that is actually doing that! YEAH!
[22:36:32] <mechanicjay> I'd be doing a bit more, but I lost my ssh access to the www server, so it's hard to go look at stuff to document it.
[22:37:42] <mechanicjay> I think access should be the highest priority thing were working on thight now.
[22:39:24] <audioguy> I have access to tht server if it is the one running the main site slash (not db)
[22:39:38] <audioguy> I should be able to set you up.
[22:40:11] <mechanicjay> my account had been setup to use my public key.. not sure what happened
[22:40:19] <audioguy> I see your name in home, what is the problem?
[22:40:29] <audioguy> hand on...
[22:40:35] <audioguy> er hang
[22:41:11] <mechanicjay> idk , key isn't working, password doesnt work either
[22:41:36] <audioguy> I see you key in your ssh folder, let me look elsewhere....
[22:42:09] <mechanicjay> am I even in /etc/passwd?
[22:42:46] <audioguy> not in passwd file
[22:43:37] <audioguy> go to priv please....
[22:48:01] <audioguy> are you here?
[22:48:35] <what-if-i> yes?
[22:48:51] <mechanicjay> audioguy: sorry, I'm back
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