#editorial | Logs for 2014-04-24

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[14:55:26] <Woods> Hey wow, we had 0 stories in the queue for an hour and a half.
[15:05:41] <Woods> Nice job getting that article out there, Woods.
[15:05:46] <Woods> Thanks, me!
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[16:21:26] <janrinok> greetings editorial types - and anyone else who is also here....
[16:23:11] <Woods> Hello.
[16:23:26] <janrinok> hi Woods sup?
[16:23:39] <Woods> Not much, just trying to fill up the queue.
[16:24:15] <janrinok> I haven't got that far - how many subs have we?
[16:24:39] <Woods> Like, 25.
[16:24:53] <janrinok> ah, not too bad if most of them are decent
[16:25:30] <Woods> The posting queue was empty when I logged in this morning. It had not had a post for an hour and a half though, so it was not a problem.
[16:26:26] <janrinok> That happens from time to time. You can only put so many hours a day into it. LamX and I did about 10 days with just the 2 of us and we were both exhausted by the end.
[16:26:42] <Woods> How do I tell the difference between a "Slashvertisement" and a new technology that is available for purchase?
[16:26:47] <Woods> Yikes.
[16:28:07] <janrinok> if the submitter is linked to the technology (check his contact email!) then it is probably a slashvertisement. Likewise, if it points to his own blog, or he 'sells' it like it is the best thing since the invention of beer.
[16:28:12] <Woods> VTOL Comes to DIY Aerobot Kits, and Computerphone running CyanogenMod both look cool, but both look like people would accuse us of just advertising.
[16:28:57] <Woods> K
[16:29:08] <janrinok> leave them for the time being and I'll have a look later. I've no more idea than you have really, but if we both think it iffy - then we just ignore it until LamX appears.
[16:29:41] <Woods> Sounds good.
[16:29:43] <janrinok> I'm just adding more memory to my main machine so I'm not on the site yet
[16:31:00] <Bytram> hi gang!
[16:31:34] <Bytram> noticed a couple minor things in the Spacetime story; fixing now.
[16:32:12] <Woods> What did I miss?
[16:33:22] <janrinok> Bytram: hi
[16:33:38] <Bytram> nothing much, really.
[16:35:44] <Bytram> "10-33cm" --> "10^-33"; added commas around a subordinate clause...
[16:35:50] <janrinok> VTOL _is_ a slashvertisement in my view.
[16:35:57] <Bytram> "is no longer continuous as held by classical physics but discrete in nature." --> "is no longer continuous, as held by classical physics, but discrete in nature."
[16:36:25] <Bytram> "(a integral part" --> "(an integral part"
[16:36:26] <Bytram> so, all minor stuff.
[16:36:32] <janrinok> Woods: see, we have our own grammar nazi. And he's good at it too
[16:36:43] <xlefay> :o
[16:36:49] <Woods> Dang it.
[16:36:51] <janrinok> xlefay: hi
[16:36:58] <Bytram> The user interface is, umm, "limited" when trying to edit stories, and I brought a fresh pair of eyes.
[16:37:00] <xlefay> janrinok, hi, how's you? :)
[16:37:11] <Bytram> I find it hard to see that stuff after about the 3rd edit, myself!
[16:37:18] <xlefay> "fresh" pair you say, where can I buy those?
[16:37:29] <Bytram> butcher?
[16:37:42] <Woods> Bytram: Make sure you check the MSN/AIM article as well, I fear it may not make sense. I had to chop a snippet out for it to work.
[16:37:47] <Bytram> j/k
[16:37:55] <xlefay> I suppose that would work haha
[16:38:00] <janrinok> I'm fine. just stuffing memory into my main box.
[16:38:13] <xlefay> janrinok, ah, nice, how much memory are we talking?
[16:38:17] <Bytram> Woods: will do. Thanks a bunch for your stepping up the past couple days to keep stories in the queue!!!!!!
[16:38:47] <Bytram> Woods: looking at in now.
[16:38:48] <Woods> No problem. I should have stacked a few more before I left work yesterday, I am still having a tough time adjusting for the tz difference.
[16:38:49] <janrinok> only another 4GB to make 8 total
[16:39:35] <Woods> (midnight at UTC 0 is when I leave work-ish, so it messes me up, thinking it is midnight here.... I have no grasp of time zones.)
[16:39:37] <xlefay> ah nice, I want to buy some more memory for my laptop at some point (read; when I'm no longer broke), bring it up to 8 as well. Currently, I'm off loading stuff to my desktop (which acts as the HTPC downstairs, with 16GB of mem) which isn't ideal.
[16:40:46] <janrinok> I would say that the Cyanogen story is genuine - but perhaps edit it to say that 'there is not much more information that is available in the advertising from OnePlus, but kaszz writes:'
[16:41:05] <janrinok> ignore sp and typos errors
[16:41:51] <Woods> mmhmm. Given that the link on "OnePlus" is to a wiki page, heh..
[16:42:46] <xlefay> janrinok, got anything exotic in the machine (hardware wise, ssd for instance)?
[16:43:07] <janrinok> Yes he's simply pointing out who the company are - I had never heard of them - and it will give some existing phones a run for their money if sold at the right price. Someone will still criticise you though....
[16:43:32] <xlefay> no doubt.. but this is an ex-slashdot crowd, so no real surprise there ;-)
[16:44:25] <janrinok> xlefay: no, just a bog-standard quad core desktop which I try to use for all of my programming, but seems to spend more time editing stories nowadays!
[16:45:43] <xlefay> janrinok, haha I see.
[16:46:32] <janrinok> maybe one day we will have lots of editors, around the clock, global coverage, and I can get to do some programming again....
[16:48:04] <xlefay> janrinok, perhaps, you should allocate your time to program an alice-type bot, into editing.
[16:49:01] <janrinok> I haven't even got time to think of what project would be good to do!
[16:49:33] <xlefay> Create editors.
[16:49:40] <xlefay> Write bots, that are editors*
[16:49:51] <xlefay> Nothing could possibly go wrong!
[16:50:05] <janrinok> I'm too busy editing, wiki-ing, emailing etc
[16:50:50] <Bytram> Woods: I updated a couple3 stylish things for MSN/AIM story, but I'm still left with a "Well, yeah?" kind of attitude when I read it. Feels like it needs some kind of "hook"?
[16:50:53] <Bytram> brb afk
[16:51:03] * Bytram had too much coffeee
[16:51:08] <janrinok> lol
[16:51:10] <xlefay> ha
[16:51:17] <xlefay> we're all so busy man
[16:53:07] <Woods> Bytram: I know right? The story is great, but in order to get to the hook, you have to read the whole thing so you have context. And I do not really want to quote the whole story, because then what is the point of the summary that does not summarize?
[16:53:09] <janrinok> lol - everytime we get a new editor another disappears somewhere else. It seems that the group is not getting any bigger!
[16:53:45] <xlefay> janrinok, if you would just stop helping them disappear, the group might actually grow!
[16:54:05] <janrinok> that's a fair point - would digging them up help, do you think?
[16:54:45] <xlefay> I'm afraid it's a tat to late for that, they are too far gone I'm sure.
[16:55:14] <Bytram> I'm back.
[16:55:19] <janrinok> true, they are beginning to smell and next door's dog keeps digging in my 'special' patch
[16:55:39] <janrinok> Bytram: coffee does that!
[16:55:50] <Bytram> Woods: I have an idea... let me play with it some more
[16:56:24] <Bytram> janrinok: how long can the "dept" string be?
[16:56:40] <xlefay> Hmm, that's a tough one, perhaps, give the dog incentive to start digging and let the neighbors take the blame? Surely, that must solve all your problems.
[16:56:46] <janrinok> dont know
[16:57:01] <xlefay> Then, others will dig them bodies up FOR you!
[16:57:09] <janrinok> remember the spade has your name on it.....
[16:57:32] <xlefay> Oh shit, that's right.. maybe, remove that spade first?
[16:57:37] <janrinok> ...and I left that in their garden. Sorry about that.
[16:57:49] <xlefay> I'm sure you are..
[16:57:57] <janrinok> Hever you seen the size of their dog?!
[16:58:03] <janrinok> have*
[16:58:14] <Bytram> "MSN-Messenger-aimed-at-AIM-met-a-meta-message"
[16:58:17] <xlefay> No, but I would assume, it's quite large.
[16:58:26] <xlefay> Bytram, that's terrible!
[16:58:30] <janrinok> ginormous
[16:58:35] <Bytram> xlefay: glad you liked it!
[16:58:57] <xlefay> janrinok, I'm trying very hard not to make a bad joke now..
[16:59:17] <janrinok> Bytram: I'm still ploughing through the source article to find out what the interest is.....
[16:59:53] <xlefay> Ugh I gotta get back to work :P
[17:00:00] <xlefay> You guys are far too distracting.
[17:00:09] <janrinok> xlefay: carry on - your jokes are often bad, I'm getting used to it!
[17:00:16] <Bytram> I read it, it's more of a cat n mouse type thing.
[17:00:27] <Bytram> I've got 5 minutes or so til it's go-live.
[17:00:29] <xlefay> janrinok, aww :'(
[17:00:32] <Bytram> think i can swing it.
[17:00:44] * xlefay walks off without putting the sunglasses on :'(
[17:00:50] <janrinok> Bytram: delay it!
[17:01:06] <Bytram> how?
[17:01:13] <janrinok> there is no set time for any release. We are gods in that department
[17:02:15] <Bytram> janrinok: I understand that, but how do I change the time it gets released?
[17:02:23] <janrinok> Bytram: I've read it - and I would feel as though I'd just lost 10 minutes of my life....
[17:02:45] <janrinok> Bytram: go into edit mode and simply change the date time - do you want me to do it?
[17:02:59] <Bytram> yeah, I think you're right. I'll save muy changes and you can do that. hold on.
[17:03:37] <Bytram> janrinok: go for it
[17:04:09] <janrinok> Woods: it was a good summary, but the subject was very dry
[17:04:18] <janrinok> Bytram: I added 1 hour
[17:04:31] <Bytram> janrinok: thanks!
[17:04:46] <janrinok> we will retime the others once we know what we are doing with this one.
[17:05:22] <Bytram> Woods: Agreed. You did a great job, but it was like trying to get a silk purse from a sow's ear...
[17:05:31] <Bytram> linked story was too "dry".
[17:05:56] <Bytram> if it were more cat-and-mouse-like, I think we could have run with it.
[17:06:42] <Bytram> e.g.: We were so excited when mgmt approved our interop trick. High-fives all-around! And then the problems started...
[17:07:38] <Bytram> we got reports of it not working. Huh? Them bastards! They changed the protocol on us! Quick what did they do? How can wefix it with all these millions of users bitching at us left and right?
[17:07:56] <Bytram> If it were more like THAT, then I would be more willing to run with it.
[17:08:09] <Bytram> A valiant effort on your part though!
[17:09:23] <Bytram> I'm gonna take a look at the OpenSSL getting funding story
[17:11:23] <janrinok> Woods: you there?
[17:12:50] <janrinok> ping Woods
[17:23:15] <Woods> Real work is getting busy
[17:23:33] <Woods> I have a few minutes, then I have to get busy again, what is up Janrinok?
[17:24:25] <janrinok> OK - I've brought your other story forward, I think we should hold the MSN/AOL story, but read above. It was a good summary but not an easy topic to cover.
[17:25:01] <janrinok> You certainly jumped in the deep end there - congrats at giving it a go!
[17:25:25] <janrinok> sry that should be MSN
[17:25:34] <Woods> Woo, thanks. I read the article previously, and it was definitely interesting. We should definitely post it at some point.
[17:25:34] <janrinok> that should be MSN/AIM!
[17:26:03] <janrinok> Yes, agreed, but I will need a lot of work to induce people to read through it.
[17:26:45] <Woods> I will let you handle it then. :)
[17:26:55] <Woods> I believe in yooooouuuuuu
[17:27:07] <janrinok> gee thx
[17:27:42] <janrinok> that should have read 'it will need a lot of work' - but I seem to have cocked-that up and assumed the task!
[17:27:42] <Woods> lol
[17:28:32] <Woods> Well I can handle it, I am sure... But just not right now, I have two big things going on at my real job, and a third is about to come in to the helpdesk. So I will probably be useless for the rest of the day.
[17:28:52] <janrinok> np - work comes first. take care.
[17:29:09] <janrinok> ps I'm useless all the time...
[17:29:16] <Woods> lol, nawww
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[17:29:58] <weeds> Hello
[17:30:13] <janrinok> hi weeds
[17:32:08] <weeds> How are you today?
[17:32:20] <janrinok> I'm good, and you?
[17:32:58] <weeds> Pretty good - Blue Jackets won, work is temporarily under control...
[17:33:25] <janrinok> ? Blue Jackets I assume is a sports team?
[17:33:26] <weeds> Lots of static on the voting - makes me laugh
[17:33:44] <weeds> Indeed, Columbus hockey team.
[17:33:56] <janrinok> excuse an ignorant Brit
[17:34:44] <weeds> I'm pretty sure not everyone lives in the US (or gives a hoot about the NHL) :)
[17:35:35] <Bytram> weeds: Hi! Good to see you!
[17:35:39] <janrinok> Oh, I'm absolutely sure that not everyone lives in the US. I've looked out of my window and there isn't an American to be seen....
[17:35:46] <Bytram> janrinok: And a belated hello to you, too!
[17:36:02] * Bytram waves at janrinok ... can you see me now?
[17:36:12] <janrinok> Bytram: likewise - a bit of an introduction by fire up above...
[17:36:15] <weeds> janrinok: You can tell just by looking?
[17:36:57] <janrinok> Yeah, they all wear loud check trousers and you can hear them miles away. That's only the tourist kind of course, the rest seem pretty normal.
[17:37:11] <Bytram> I think the OpenSSL story is in pretty good shape; just needs a proofread and a dept. Any takers?
[17:37:17] <janrinok> yep
[17:37:55] * Bytram offers some earplugs to janrinok =)
[17:38:25] <weeds> So... about that chat wars story??
[17:38:52] <Bytram> weeds: yes?
[17:38:56] <weeds> Bytram: Hello
[17:39:07] <Bytram> weeds: Hi!!!!
[17:39:12] <weeds> It was there and then gone?
[17:39:37] <Bytram> yup, we pushed the release date/time back a bit.
[17:39:46] <janrinok> its still there on the list but not being released yet - it requires a bit of work yet
[17:39:52] <Bytram> ^^^^
[17:40:25] <weeds> Oh, I never saw that before, it was on the front [age and then you puled it back?
[17:40:30] <weeds> p
[17:40:50] <Bytram> weeds: NYSINYD
[17:41:36] <janrinok> Bytram: good and I've marked it for release.
[17:41:45] <Bytram> janrinok: thanks!
[17:41:55] <janrinok> so what does NYSINYD mean?
[17:42:08] <weeds> Bytram: yes, yes it was
[17:42:14] <Bytram> janrinok: here's the fun part; and I hope they don't fix it before the release. =) Take a look at their FAQ: http://www.linuxfoundation.org
[17:42:24] <weeds> Now You See It Now You Don't
[17:42:37] <Bytram> especially at item #10 "Why didn�t you think about doing this before the lack of funding for OpenSSL resulted in Heartbleed?"
[17:42:51] <Bytram> there is no item 10 in the reply. OOoops!
[17:45:13] <janrinok> I'm not seeing any numbered list on that story or in the links - I suspect that I'm being a bit stupid again.
[17:46:18] <Bytram> janrinok: my bad. I looked at the source HTML. but, the link at the top "Why didn�t you think about doing this before the lack of funding for OpenSSL resulted in Heartbleed?"
[17:46:29] <Bytram> has no target, IOW it is left unanswered.
[17:46:33] <Bytram> :/
[17:46:40] <janrinok> ok got it lol
[17:48:08] <Bytram> maybe they, who advocate checking source, should pay someone to check *their* source?
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[18:06:59] <Bytram|away> that's strange. My connection dropped. I reconnected. Now I see I am still here from before. :/
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[18:07:24] <Bytram> ahhh, that's better!
[18:07:46] <xlefay> IRC works on the principle of Ping-Pong, the server sends your client a PING every few minutes, if you don't reply after a while, it'll disconnect you. So essentially, your nick was just a ghost in the machine for a little bit
[18:08:09] <xlefay> (it has to reply with a pong, and yes, those are the technical names used ;-))
[18:09:04] <Bytram> xlefay: thanks for the explanation!
[18:09:17] <xlefay> that also explains the ping time out message hehe
[18:09:21] * Bytram fondly remembers playing "Gnip Gnop" as a child.
[18:09:40] <mrcoolbp> brb
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[18:09:43] <Bytram> wasn't until recently that I realized that "Gnip Gnop" is "Ping Pong" spelled backwards.
[18:09:49] <xlefay> ha
[18:09:59] <xlefay> I didn't see it either :P
[18:10:21] <Bytram> xlefay: "it"? the reverse spelling?
[18:10:27] <xlefay> yea
[18:10:42] <xlefay> not sure if that's technically reverse spelling
[18:11:21] <Bytram> I think it was a gift from one my aunts/uncles... I'm sure my parents would not have bought it for us given all the noise it made while playing!
[18:11:29] <xlefay> It's more like a "once you realize it.. you feel silly for not realizing it sooner."
[18:11:40] <xlefay> cool
[18:12:25] <Bytram> xlefay: I of course just had to see if it was reversed or not...
[18:12:46] <xlefay> haha :P
[18:12:47] <Bytram> "echo Ping Pong|rev" gave me "gnoP gniP"
[18:12:59] <Bytram> kinda looks even better, that way!
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[18:45:38] <Bytram> Hi! I'd appreciate a proofread of: "http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=14/04/24/1634220"
[18:47:17] <Woods> The link is broken, Bytram.
[18:47:42] <Bytram> Woods: huh? let me try again... :/
[18:48:52] <Bytram> Woods: it's number 2 on the "Story List" at http://soylentnews.org
[18:49:10] <Bytram> "Unconvering Hidden Processing Power"
[18:49:32] <Woods> Ah. I should not proofread that, since I was the one who submitted it. :P
[18:50:19] <Bytram> Let me guess, you wood knot sea a knee miss takes?
[18:50:45] <Woods> Are you trying to make a super-obvious hint? :\
[18:51:22] <Bytram> eye cud knot dew sew!
[18:51:39] <Woods> I hate that he uses "inefficiencies" three times, but since it was in the original article, I figured it should stay.
[18:52:35] <Bytram> that's kinda what's bothering me, too. Maybe it needs more of a synopsis, instead of just an intro and quotation?
[19:00:05] * xlefay reads
[19:01:33] <xlefay> I hadn't even noticed it tbh
[19:01:54] <Bytram> xlefay: I appreciate the second look!
[19:09:27] <xlefay> You know, I was just thinking... while reading the feedback for the name vote, if we don't do a re-poll, and the SN name get chosen, there's a small chance we'll revote, right?
[19:10:07] <Bytram> xlefay: not quite following you?
[19:10:16] <xlefay> !uid
[19:10:16] <deadbeef> The current maximum UID is 4229, owned by Moonfog
[19:10:56] <xlefay> the namevote feedback article, you missed it?
[19:11:14] <mrcool|afk> xlefay: I'd say it's all or nothing: either we stand behing this or we re-do it
[19:11:34] * mrcool|afk hops into the shower
[19:12:02] <Bytram> i saw it; am wondering what leads you to think we'd need to revote?
[19:12:08] <xlefay> I hope we'll re-do it.
[19:12:34] <xlefay> Bytram, have you seen the general replies? Perhaps, we won't need to re-do it, but at least, extend the time, allow people to "sign up" while it's in progress
[19:13:10] <Bytram> I read yesterday afternoon, but not since.
[19:13:29] <xlefay> (if, indeed, a web form is presented.. I'm not sure, I read earlier, that NC wanted to wash his hands from the name vote :/ now I honestly am losing fate in the entire thing, I have no clue who's picking it up now - if any)
[19:13:46] <xlefay> Well, there's about 2 pages and > ~95% of people that aren't happy
[19:14:18] <xlefay> I hope, someone very involved in the voting thing, will write something up on the mailing list, something concise about the plans.
[19:14:37] * mrcool|afk runs back
[19:14:42] <mrcool|afk> xlefay
[19:14:50] <mrcool|afk> we ask for criticisms
[19:14:56] <mrcool|afk> so yeah people are going to offer those
[19:15:20] <mrcool|afk> there are a few people that think we should re-do it (but note that only a few people actually said that specifically
[19:15:32] <mrcool|afk> there were a bunch that said it was fine (more)
[19:15:47] <mrcool|afk> many said "don't redo it" in fact
[19:16:07] <xlefay> Most of what I'm reading, isn't good. The only reason some suggest not re-doing it is related to the fact they don't want the name to chance anyway
[19:16:43] <xlefay> but my real question now is, who's going to interpret the results? Who's going to take action based on those results? And what are the possible actions that may or may not be taken?
[19:17:16] <mrcool|afk> You can ask NC that, it was his idea. Audioguy and I did not have time to review (I was at work the whole day)
[19:17:26] <xlefay> If someone could make a small, concise write up on the list about that, it'd be useful for the rest of us.
[19:17:46] <xlefay> .. and NC said something along the lines (not to me though, I just read that excerpt in the backlog) that he was washing his hands of it..
[19:18:03] <mrcool|afk> yeah
[19:18:06] <mrcool|afk> I saw that too
[19:18:14] mrcool|afk is now known as mrcoolbp
[19:18:37] <xlefay> Well.. this is starting to piss me off (not anyone personally though); but the going forth and such, it just feels like we're not accomplishing anything :~/
[19:18:42] <xlefay> It's frustrating.
[19:19:19] <mrcoolbp> I was hoping the "Asking for feedback" story could wait till after
[19:19:26] <mrcoolbp> but NC wanted to know what the users thought
[19:19:34] <mrcoolbp> My take-away is this:
[19:19:55] <mrcoolbp> Yes people had criticisms (stuff we were well aware of already) but we literally asked for them
[19:20:21] <mrcoolbp> so you're going to see the majority of people saying what appear to be complaints (but were actually just answering the article)
[19:20:40] <mrcoolbp> then you saw people you actually said "please re-do it" but I only rememver a few
[19:20:48] <xlefay> mrcoolbp, I never used the word complaints. I said, specifically, that they were unhappy.
[19:21:16] <mrcoolbp> there are some that are unhappy yes, but there will ALWAYS be some that are unhappy no matter what we do
[19:21:18] <xlefay> There are a few that call for a re-do and a few that call to stick with it.. I'm not happy about this entire affair, like many others (you, bluze)
[19:22:13] <Bytram> well, I did take a look early on at merging an improved voting system into slash. Was beyond my abilibites.
[19:22:27] <mrcoolbp> If a re-do is called, I'm not going to be angry at all, I just personally think it will do more harm then good, force us to come up with a near-perfect solution, delay things longer, etc.
[19:22:31] <Bytram> If I'd had permission to to something outside of slash, I might have had a better chance.
[19:22:33] <Bytram> otoh,
[19:22:54] <mrcoolbp> and people will still complain I'm sure
[19:23:01] <Bytram> many of these problems are coming forth only because we actually did something.
[19:23:30] <xlefay> Bytram, well, that's why we have the dev vm, so people can try stuff out
[19:23:48] <Bytram> in my experience, people often cannot tell you what they want, but they'll recognize what they don't like.
[19:24:03] <mrcoolbp> heh
[19:24:12] <mrcoolbp> spoken like a QA guy bytram
[19:24:20] <Bytram> moi?
[19:24:30] <Bytram> Shirley you jest!
[19:24:37] <mrcoolbp> Don't call me Shirley!
[19:24:43] <Bytram> LOL!
[19:24:48] <Bytram> Roger.
[19:24:57] <xlefay> mrcoolbp, I semi-agree.. but, say, 75% of the people who signed up for the vote actually vote, than there'll be a small percentage, say, 25% that'll reverse vote, that's approx 4-5% of actual "proper" votes and 2-4% misvotes, out of >4000 people
[19:25:28] <mrcoolbp> which they can re-send and fix
[19:25:34] <xlefay> That's what scares the shit out of me, having ~8% of the community vote (and still have many misvotes)
[19:25:52] <mrcoolbp> it's a fair point sir
[19:26:04] <xlefay> If I had cared to vote (I won't); and I'd have been wrong, I wouldn't have cared to re-send it.
[19:26:29] <Bytram> to my eye, the real question is "How many of the people who *wanted* to vote, were unable to?" IOW...
[19:26:29] <xlefay> Then there's also the yahoo stuff and other e-mail providers, there are tons of ways around, but you're asking a lot of people to answer a poll.
[19:26:44] <xlefay> Bytram, that's another concern
[19:27:15] <xlefay> I honestly don't see how this vote can be called legitimate, it was well intended and a lot of effort went into that, it's just not working out as far as I can tell.
[19:27:24] <xlefay> s/that/it/
[19:27:56] <mrcoolbp> I'll say one more thing, We would need answers to the following to consider this option xlefay: if we decide to re-do it, how will we make that decision? (you asked that already) and when will we do it? (hopefully BEFORE this runs out) and *How* will we redo it? (No freaking clue)
[19:28:45] <Bytram> xlefay: so what would it take? Force logout all users and then have an interstitial login page that you had to proactively answer whether or not you wanted to vote?
[19:28:53] <mrcoolbp> okay I'm really hopping in the shower now. We should involve NC and AG (and rest of staff) in this discussion btw...
[19:28:55] <xlefay> Now I heard a compromise would be made, if the results on the call for feedback were mostly negative (which they are), but, NC washed his hands clean of it, you don't have the time, neither does AG apparently.. effectively, locking us in, unless I or someone else steps up; and doing so, would only step on others their toes, or worse, delay the vote even more.
[19:29:25] <xlefay> Bytram, biggest problems with the current system: e-mail
[19:29:29] <xlefay> problem*
[19:29:49] <Bytram> it does add a level of complexity and disconnect
[19:30:01] <Woods> If we can take a step back for a minute... What does the current vote look like? If it is overwhelmingly for SoylentNews, then maybe we can just forget about the whole thing and move on with that?
[19:30:06] <xlefay> not only that, spam filters block our mails (how can they not with the amount of domains in that)
[19:30:25] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: I disagree slightly: the majority of feedback was people pointing out how it could be better, I'll have to re-read it
[19:30:41] <Bytram> same here.
[19:30:43] <xlefay> mrcoolbp, which in itself, is negative regarding the current way the voting goes, is it not?
[19:31:06] <mrcoolbp> Woods: he's calling into question the legitimacy of those votes themselves, which has some founding
[19:31:09] <Bytram> gtg, back in a bit.
[19:31:37] <xlefay> Bytram, ok
[19:32:13] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: depends on your interpretation, can we solve any of those solutions in a legitimate time-frame without more complaints of people saying we are futher solidifying SN as the name and calling our actions into question further?
[19:32:20] <xlefay> Woods, we can't do that.. firstly, a lot of people voted wrongly, they thought that #1 is their first choice.. apparently, it's not (they can re-vote, but I'm sure only a few will); secondly it was promised; 3) a lot of people don't like the current name
[19:32:34] <mrcoolbp> we've already been accused of doing this on purpose (delaying things)
[19:32:59] <Woods> Well dang it.
[19:33:03] <xlefay> mrcoolbp, with the current standing of things (roadblocks amongst others?), no, we can't. but if you ask me, we can't accept the results either
[19:33:23] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: I can't argue with that at all (and won't)
[19:33:37] <mrcoolbp> my point is that if we re-do it, we better have a rock-solid system
[19:33:39] <mrcoolbp> and we don't
[19:33:55] <Woods> We should just make Xlefay create a poll for it, and slap that sucker on the main page for a day.
[19:34:08] <mrcoolbp> that's not a bad idea at all woods
[19:34:13] <mrcoolbp> I've been considering similar
[19:34:38] <xlefay> mrcoolbp, what bothers me the most, is that when someone else mentioned this time and again it was ignored. In any case, if I ever have to bring up such a discussion, I won't talk to certain people but instead talk to you or someone else.
[19:34:43] <Woods> Even if we have to use some third party poll site... I think Google may have something of the sort? That would be way better than any e-mail mess, imho.
[19:34:45] <xlefay> Because, at least.. now we're making _some_ progress.
[19:35:04] <xlefay> Woods, honestly? creating a poll is simple. Making it right, doing the ballots correctly and all? That's a bit harder.
[19:35:31] <xlefay> & properly integrating with SN is _hard_ unless we would re-use the current "tick to vote" and send e-mails with unique links
[19:35:50] * xlefay is actually considering giving this a shot... and "walk the walk"
[19:36:15] <Woods> I guess confirming identity is a pretty big deal, do not want people casting multiple votes.
[19:36:21] <mrcoolbp> I think he mean't a poll "Should we re-do the Vote" on main site
[19:36:26] <xlefay> mrcoolbp, no
[19:37:14] <Woods> What are the limitations of the in-built polling system on SN?
[19:37:16] <xlefay> I meant, building a small, quick voting system that could be used instead, in case we do need to re-vote.. but honestly, testing would need at least, > 1 weeks (if you do it properly) and with at least, 100 people testing
[19:37:29] <xlefay> so essentially, it's already pointless to even try :/
[19:37:52] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: there's a lot of people on both sides of the "Should we re-do it?" so I recommend the first step is a mail to the mailing list outlining important points you mention
[19:38:08] <mrcoolbp> it's only been talked about in IRC that we should even consider re-doing
[19:38:10] <xlefay> mrcoolbp, I would already have done that if I thought it would make a difference.
[19:38:26] <mrcoolbp> still it is proper procedure
[19:38:27] <xlefay> Honestly, it's one person after another that ignores this matter or considers leaving..
[19:38:44] <xlefay> I _don't_ want to be the reason for anyone leaving.
[19:39:53] <mrcoolbp> no one does, but it must go to the list, or NC must decide himself (not ideal)
[19:39:56] <xlefay> To be more accurate, I don't want anyone to leave.
[19:39:57] <mrcoolbp> that's the procedure
[19:40:07] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: too late?
[19:40:51] <mrcoolbp> honestly I really don't care what we do, I'm just pointing out implications of our actions
[19:40:52] <xlefay> mrcoolbp, I dislike the fact that NC can decide it on his own (not because I don't trust him or anything, but because it's not the procedure we wanted to take; iirc, a team leader can only override if there isn't consensus... as far as I can tell.. NC is a team leader)
[19:41:21] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: knowing that would require some kind of codified structure
[19:41:41] <xlefay> agreed
[19:41:50] <mrcoolbp> aw damning
[19:41:52] <xlefay> Essentially, the way I see it
[19:41:57] <xlefay> NC is the chair, and the staff's the board
[19:42:06] <xlefay> go shower man
[19:42:12] <mrcoolbp> okay, BRB
[19:42:19] <xlefay> I'll give mailing the list some thought.
[19:42:27] <xlefay> Woods, everyone can vote
[19:42:33] <mrcoolbp> draft something up, I'll post it if you want
[19:42:33] <xlefay> and everyone can vote more than once
[19:42:41] <xlefay> AC's can vote, multiple times, etc..
[19:42:43] <mrcoolbp> we need concensus of some kind...
[19:42:47] <Woods> Ah
[19:42:57] mrcoolbp is now known as mrcool|shower
[19:42:58] <xlefay> I don't think we'll find that on this matter.. :/
[19:43:29] janrinok|afk is now known as janrinok
[19:45:00] <weeds> xlefay: Did you say redo the vote and everyone can vote including AC and any number of times?
[19:45:22] <xlefay> no, the vote inside slash itself allows for that
[19:45:27] <xlefay> "18<22Woods18> What are the limitations of the in-built polling system on SN?"
[19:45:28] <Woods> Weeds: He is talking about the poll on the right side of the page.
[19:45:44] <xlefay> oh, Woods & weeds
[19:45:52] * xlefay goes to look at names more now.. lol
[19:45:53] <Woods> :D
[19:46:51] <Woods> Xlefay: I cannot speak as to wether we should/should not redo the poll, but I have thought of a good way to redo it that requires very little work on anyones part. I just have to find specifically what I need for the job.
[19:47:35] <xlefay> Woods, re-doing it, in itself is easy. Honestly, it is. The longest stretch on it, however, is testing
[19:47:59] <xlefay> I for one, refuse to let any code in the wild without a proper testing phase.
[19:48:06] <Bytram> Woods: I would suggest reading over the wiki page that AGuy wrote which lists some of the parameters which affect how it is implemented. e.g. wrt privacy, etc.
[19:48:16] <Bytram> xlefay++
[19:48:17] <deadbeef> karma - xlefay: 1
[19:48:33] <xlefay> Bytram, the biggest problem is.. he over-engineered it imo.
[19:49:13] <xlefay> and no-one not even I pointed that out (I suspect, many people were just to lazy to actually read the things he wrote.. they aren't exactly, light reading - so that's our fault)
[19:49:21] <Woods> I think the bigger problem is that whoever picked SN initially (Apparently) did not do a good enough job.
[19:49:38] <xlefay> The name change was always promised, from the moment SN was picked.
[19:49:48] <xlefay> It wasn't even a community vote.. honestly, the name sucks, it does.
[19:49:52] <Woods> Hindsight, perhaps a poor idea.
[19:49:56] <janrinok> hi guys - I'm back but the conversation looks heavy. Has there been another coup?
[19:49:57] <Woods> No way, SN is awesome.
[19:50:30] <Woods> And the tagline works so perfectly with what we are.
[19:50:30] <xlefay> I disagree and I can't wait till we have the fugly logo gone (the one on the wiki for instance, is much prettier)
[19:50:47] <Woods> Oh no, the logo is hideous, I agree there.
[19:50:55] <xlefay> Saw the one on the wiki?
[19:50:56] <xlefay> It's pretty
[19:51:16] <xlefay> http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[19:51:34] <Woods> lol, honestly I had not noticed the difference.
[19:51:37] <Bytram> xlefay: I can attest that I read it over too quickly and failed to note the distinction between "vote" and "phase", among other things.
[19:51:39] <xlefay> Now if only.. someone had suggested we use the logo on the wiki, say, a hundred times or so..
[19:51:44] <xlefay> Oh wait, I did.
[19:51:53] <xlefay> Woods, really, it's easily spotted
[19:52:15] <Woods> Sure, if you are looking for it.
[19:52:21] <xlefay> http://soylentnews.org vs. http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[19:52:45] <xlefay> The colors is what makes the difference and the fact that news is italic
[19:52:51] <xlefay> Bytram, indeed.
[19:53:23] <xlefay> Bytram, these situations is what QA for instance, is looking to resolve.
[19:53:28] <xlefay> s/resolve/prevent/
[19:53:35] <janrinok> I guess that I'm the only one happy with Soylent News then.....
[19:54:00] <xlefay> For instance, I wouldn't have let this system as is go through the door, it's exactly the opposite of a friendly user interface.
[19:54:07] <Woods> Janrinok: I like it tooooo
[19:54:41] <xlefay> Give people the choice between a web form and e-mail, fine.. but the system as-is makes it just too difficult opposed to already set conventions (click and submit)
[19:54:47] <janrinok> thx - but that doesn't say much for your judgement if you agree with me ;-)
[19:54:49] <Bytram> xlefay: agreed, but there's the challenge of getting buy-in; especially when there's negative feedback... like in being able to just push out a change.
[19:55:12] <xlefay> 'buy-in'?
[19:55:28] <xlefay> janrinok, or, it says a lot ;)
[19:55:42] <xlefay> It all depends on your point of view buddy
[19:55:52] <janrinok> thx guys
[19:55:55] <Bytram> wouldn't be able to do that anymore. Automated tests by the hundreds(I exagerate slightly) could fail just by changing a couple "minor" things in the css
[19:56:02] <Woods> I gotta get back to work, give me a holler if you need me.
[19:56:18] <Bytram> Woods: k, good luck!
[19:56:35] <xlefay> Bytram, true, but that's what we would have to prevent.
[19:57:09] <xlefay> Essentially, for new developments. QA will evaluate said new development, test it, trawl through the code, etc.. and say "OK" or "NOK <reason[s]>"
[19:57:38] <Bytram> people are generally happy with an idea until it makes them change how they do things.
[19:57:46] <xlefay> You can't catch everything, but with a proper process and tests, you can catch a lot more than without a process of any kind
[19:58:29] <Bytram> xlefay: true. I would submit we would want some body of tests that encapsulate current functionality so we know when a change breaks something unexpectedly.
[19:58:34] <xlefay> Agreed; that's why you follow precedences and such.
[19:59:01] <Bytram> so, we need to know what parts are relatively stable and which ones are built on quicksand.
[20:00:00] <xlefay> e.g. for voting on something, it's not a great idea if you deviate from others, there are hundreds of thousands (probably more) voting systems via the webz, doing something differently, like e-mail, it's just not going to work unfortunately
[20:00:00] * Bytram shudders at the thought of making a test base to validate all the user-preference choices and interactions.
[20:00:32] <xlefay> QA would have noticed that from an user perspective, for instance (following guidelines, we have yet to set..)
[20:00:36] <Bytram> don't re-invent the wheel.
[20:00:48] <xlefay> yeah, that's a terrible though
[20:01:45] <Bytram> hold on a bit; need to post a comment.
[20:01:46] <xlefay> I'm really sorry that I didn't take a closer interest (in the voting stuff, once it was deciding on the e-mail system I just stopped following the flow) earlier on, if I had, I might have been able to make a difference before hand.
[20:02:02] <xlefay> eh, that ( started a bit too soon!
[20:02:03] <xlefay> oke
[20:02:49] mrcool|shower is now known as mrcoolbp
[20:03:03] * mrcoolbp promises hisself he's leaving for work in 20 minutes
[20:03:17] <xlefay> had a nice shower mrcoolbp ? :)
[20:03:31] <mrcoolbp> answer to that is in staff
[20:03:53] <janrinok> hi mrcoolbp
[20:03:56] <xlefay> To the shower? I didn't mean that in a kinky way at all!
[20:04:26] <mrcoolbp> ho
[20:04:27] <mrcoolbp> hi
[20:04:33] <janrinok> you good?
[20:05:06] <xlefay> mrcoolbp, I wasn't saying you weren't good at the role though. I think you've did an excellent job in making the best of the situation
[20:05:23] <xlefay> you did an excellent job*
[20:05:43] <xlefay> That clear, sir? ;)
[20:05:51] <mrcoolbp> yeha
[20:05:59] <mrcoolbp> I've been considering this for a while
[20:06:13] <mrcoolbp> my point is I need more help, I don't want to be "at the top" of this one anymore
[20:06:14] <xlefay> Good, so how was your shower (for a second there, I was afraid you were going to get all kinky and all)
[20:06:26] <mrcoolbp> it was fine
[20:06:31] <mrcoolbp> thanks = )
[20:07:04] <xlefay> The entire voting thing is a mess, I don't even know if I want to be involved in it at all.. but I really just want to get rid of the SN name or keep it, knowing full well, it was a honest, proper vote, that's all
[20:07:43] <mrcoolbp> I know
[20:08:15] <janrinok> I don't see why it is considered a mess. Not everyone will agree with the name whatever we choose. If intelligent people can't read instructions then I'm sorry for them - but don't blame email for that!
[20:08:19] <xlefay> That's why, I keep trying and trying to get some serious answers here and there, see what we can do.. but it just seems everyone wants to wash their hands of it and any attempt to take a crack at it, seems self-defeating as in, you risk pissing people off.. well, we certainly found ourselves in a great situation.
[20:08:46] <Bytram> xlefay: pm
[20:09:19] <mrcoolbp> I'm not washing my hands, it's just the whole thing is too much for me, I need help, I don't want to be at the helm of this, it's gotten too big for me
[20:09:59] <xlefay> janrinok, we're not blaming e-mail for it. There are a ton of concerns regarding e-mail; another one I hadn't mentioned but heard, was privacy. Then there's anti-spam measures and a whole boatload of more concerns.. e-mail is just not right for this, for a ton of reasons, you can't argue with that.
[20:10:03] <xlefay> Bytram, sure
[20:10:17] <janrinok> mrcoolbp: don't worry it - just continue as we planned. As I just said - if people can't read instructions perhaps they shouldn't be reading TFAs and TFSs.
[20:10:23] <xlefay> mrcoolbp, I know, and I understand. :)
[20:10:32] <mrcoolbp> janrinok: there's more
[20:10:39] <mrcoolbp> yahoo = can't vote
[20:10:58] <janrinok> because?
[20:11:00] <mrcoolbp> I just don't have any opinion any more
[20:11:00] <xlefay> janrinok, yep.. cause a ton of people can't send the vote - unless they make a new e-mail account elsewhere. Not to mention, what I already have.
[20:11:09] <xlefay> janrinok, because it's considered spam
[20:11:52] <janrinok> Wow - that's probably why I haven't used yahoo for years. but your point is well made.
[20:12:19] <mrcoolbp> yeah it should be a lesson to ymail users = )
[20:12:25] <janrinok> I take it those people are complaining to Yahoo rather than us?
[20:12:40] <mrcoolbp> you'd thinks so....
[20:12:45] <xlefay> No. We're sending >90 domains, to multiple people using Yahoo, any sensible anti-spam mechanism will be triggered.
[20:12:54] <janrinok> Your email provider is not your censor for _outgoing_ mail
[20:13:19] <xlefay> janrinok, if you send spam, or anything that looks like it, their mail servers will essentially get blocked eventually. They're protecting their users.
[20:13:40] <janrinok> Sry xlefay, is the problem that they don't get the email or they can't send the reply?
[20:13:55] <mrcoolbp> latter
[20:14:14] <janrinok> Well Yahoo should _stop_ CENSORING_ outgoing mail.
[20:14:21] <xlefay> They receive the e-mail in their spam box, although, at this rate, I'm fairly sure Boron will get blacklisted.
[20:14:47] <xlefay> janrinok, I disagree. What they're doing may be considered censoring, it's ultimately, intended to protect both themselves and their users.
[20:15:02] <xlefay> If all of Yahoo would get blacklisted, because people could send spam, millions would be affected.
[20:15:47] <janrinok> To protect them from sending emails - I understand what you are saying but they would be getting a very sharp response from me if I were in that position.
[20:16:41] <janrinok> I send block encrypted mail - nothing readable at all - if someone stop letting me send that I would leave them like a shot.
[20:16:50] <xlefay> Yes, to protect their business, because if the majority of anti-spam lists were to list Yahoo, not only their business customers will have a hard time e-mailing but also regular people. Essentially, cutting millions of people and thousands (if not more) companies from sending legitimate e-mail.
[20:17:13] <xlefay> That doesn't sound like a good idea to me and I wouldn't be surprised, if Gmail, hotmail and such are preventing people from sending either
[20:17:37] <xlefay> And if Yahoo becomes a spam sending haven... people will block them, regardless of legitimate mail
[20:17:53] <janrinok> I thought Yahoo already was....
[20:18:17] <xlefay> Apparently not, considering they're trying to block outgoing spam ;-)
[20:18:33] <janrinok> Don't switch to HTML - it will go straight into my bin...
[20:18:36] <xlefay> And yes, strictly speaking, the voting e-mail does appear to be spam, to any sensible anti-spam mechanism
[20:21:56] <xlefay> janrinok, sorry, I didn't mean to come off so strong.
[20:22:20] <xlefay> I just see and agree with Yahoo's perspective, they're protecting themselves and their clients/users, which is always a good thing in my book
[20:22:52] <janrinok> xlefay: could we set up a temporary mail server ourselves using squirrelmail, give every member an account, and then delete the whole thing at the end. No problems with email addresses, no stupid spam filters etc?
[20:23:19] <xlefay> I'm just talking with Bytram. I'm going to make a web form, that'll take advantage of AG's system.
[20:23:42] <xlefay> Essentially, people can enter their voting ID, then select their options, and the web system will send the e-mail to AG's system for them.
[20:23:54] <janrinok> if by web form, you mean HTML, then I will not be voting.
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[20:24:33] <xlefay> You can still vote via e-mail if you prefer. And those, who don't want to use e-mail, can use my form.
[20:24:35] <janrinok> My email server is set up to spit HTML out into the bit bin.
[20:25:38] <janrinok> I even put my squirrelmail for soylent on a separate machine.
[20:25:52] <xlefay> janrinok, I don't think you understand
[20:26:02] <janrinok> probably not.....)
[20:26:10] <xlefay> I will make a vote, for the webz that people can enter, that system will then, e-mail AG's system on behalf of the user
[20:26:32] <janrinok> AG?
[20:26:47] <xlefay> So essentially, people browse to the voting site, they enter their vote ID, select their options, and press "submit" then AudioGuy's voting system will receive that mail on behalf of the user
[20:27:04] <janrinok> got you - couldn't think who AG was. ooo[s
[20:27:24] <xlefay> Anyway, to me, that sounds like the middle road, partially anyway
[20:28:03] <janrinok> whatever, you guys are the experts at that sort of thing.
[20:28:11] <xlefay> People would still, unfortunately need to obtain a vote ID (if they havent), so hopefully, we'll be able to set another "subscription" phase, people will be able to either vote directly via e-mail, or input their voting ID in the thing I'm making ;-)
[20:28:52] <janrinok> ..so it all starts again? We do fuck things up in spades don't we?
[20:29:07] <xlefay> No, it doesn't start all over again.
[20:29:28] <mrcoolbp> okay I'm off to work, see you soon guys
[20:29:30] <janrinok> well what about those who haven't been able to vote so far for their top 10 names?
[20:29:34] <Bytram> janrinok: I'd don't seee this as a re-start. Just another avenue to submit a vote during *this* phase.
[20:29:34] <xlefay> The vote will continue, but people who didn't (have the chance to) sign up, can sign up and still vote, and the regular vote will just go on
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[20:29:38] <janrinok> mrcoolbp: have a safe one!
[20:29:42] mrcoolbp is now known as mrcoolbp|work
[20:29:45] <mrcoolbp|work> = )
[20:29:49] <xlefay> mrcoolbp|work, take care man
[20:29:53] <Bytram> mrcoolbp: thanks for all your work; have a great day!!!!!!!!
[20:30:28] <xlefay> At least.. I'm hoping those, who didn't sign up yet, can then still sign up, preferably.. I would do this differently
[20:31:18] <xlefay> I'd suggest, we add a new field, in the DB, "votingID", and we'd have a messed on the site, perhaps, in the nagger, saying the voting ID and link, this will allow people that can't receive/send it via e-mail, to still vote; and those that don't want to vote via e-mail, to still vote
[20:31:24] <janrinok> OK - I'll wait and see what develops. I'm sorry it's happened, its left more work for you and some others feeling unhappy. Me? I don't care. Call it what you want, although I'm happy with SN.
[20:31:39] <xlefay> Essentially.. the vote will continue as is, but, more people will have a chance
[20:31:54] <janrinok> good luck with it
[20:32:03] <chromas> Is there a table of vote ids vs user ids you can access? Put a link on sn that generates a vote id automatically and puts it into the form
[20:32:05] <janrinok> If I can help, let me know
[20:32:41] <xlefay> chromas, unfortunately there isn't.. so, I'm hoping, we can create a field in the DB, add the existing vote ID's, and generate new ones for _everyone_; people that don't want to vote can ignore it, but everyone will still have the chance
[20:33:10] <xlefay> We just don't e-mail people that didn't check the "willing to vote" but they'll have the chance anyway, if they want (via the link then)
[20:33:28] <xlefay> for _everyone_ meaning, those who don't have one already.
[20:33:46] <Bytram> xlefay: the voteid would need to support multiple votes; so would probably need a foreign key into another table.
[20:34:16] <xlefay> Bytram, this is a temporary solution, even if it was permanent, for now, I'd just have a single field; and expand on it later
[20:34:25] <xlefay> it was to become permanent*
[20:34:42] <Bytram> see what happens when you asked for QA? =)
[20:34:51] <xlefay> Bytram, I know.. this entire thing isn't ideal
[20:35:10] <xlefay> heck, it goes against my core principals regarding testing (there will be some, but hardly enough) :~/
[20:35:21] <xlefay> I'm going to feel miserable writing this *sighs*
[20:36:19] <Bytram> I share your view; yet, I think using a webform to interface into the e-mail system is quite insightful.
[20:36:32] <xlefay> It's the best possible solution..
[20:36:44] <xlefay> but it isn't a fact until both NC & AG work with me to do it
[20:37:36] <xlefay> I'm not touching MySQL, unless absolutely required; and I won't touch prod, so I'll ask NC to add the field; and the voting IDs will have to come from AG..
[20:38:14] <xlefay> So.. even though this idea is great, I doubt it'll even happen :/
[20:38:30] <Bytram> .voice
[20:38:42] <xlefay> You're not an editor ;-)
[20:38:43] <xlefay> Are you?
[20:38:57] <Bytram> look at today's main page. =)
[20:39:06] <janrinok> go killer!
[20:39:08] -!- mode/#editorial [+v Bytram] by SkyNet
[20:39:09] <xlefay> try .voice now
[20:39:16] <Bytram> .voice
[20:39:16] -!- mode/#editorial [+v Bytram] by SkyNet
[20:39:24] <Bytram> tnx!
[20:39:36] <xlefay> np
[20:40:06] <janrinok> http://soylentnews.org Bytram If you are not on it - you should be !
[20:40:36] <xlefay> let me fix that ;-)
[20:40:57] <xlefay> ehm.. Bytram which username are you using now?
[20:41:30] <Bytram> xlefay: which one... where?
[20:41:39] <Bytram> I'm an editor as "martyb"
[20:41:39] <janrinok> Arthur.T.Knackerbracket
[20:41:56] <Bytram> John Jacob Jinkelheimer Schmidt
[20:42:08] <janrinok> the Third
[20:42:08] <xlefay> Good, cause that's the only one with a sec level (actually.. based on that I should have known *facepalm*)
[20:42:12] <Bytram> =)
[20:42:28] <xlefay> Ready for me to break production?
[20:42:30] <janrinok> xlefay: is in sharp form today...!
[20:43:00] <xlefay> Bytram, are you, ready?
[20:43:11] <janrinok> xlefay: don't let the voting get you down - with friends like us around, there will always be something worse - us!
[20:45:08] <janrinok> good build up - bit of an anticlimax so far...
[20:46:11] <janrinok> Yeah!!!!
[20:46:18] <xlefay> Bytram, it's broken. Sorry about that.
[20:46:24] <janrinok> martyb 4 !!
[20:46:45] <janrinok> Well I can see it!
[20:46:52] <xlefay> If anyone asks, why, the site is giving out err^H^Hsaying your name on the authors page.. ;-)
[20:48:04] <janrinok> Bytram: I think it only recalculates once a day or whenever someone in sys prods it
[20:48:25] <xlefay> Yeah, I just prodded it, it doesn't like being poked though
[20:48:44] <janrinok> It seems to be OK, is there something wrong at your end?
[20:49:19] <xlefay> no, it's all good, I think
[20:49:24] <xlefay> but slash just doesn't like being poked
[20:49:45] <janrinok> I knew a young lady like that once....
[20:49:58] <janrinok> ..but that was probably just me.
[20:50:22] <xlefay> LOL
[20:50:26] <janrinok> That's it - I'll be banned now!
[20:59:54] <Bytram> xlefay: ouch. please stop poking me like that. =)
[21:00:37] <xlefay> oh, I was talking about slash lol!
[21:00:55] <janrinok> Can an ed second look at my stories please?
[21:01:11] <xlefay> I see how you excluded me there janrinok...
[21:01:26] * xlefay goes to check the "is author" checkbox and bypasses janrinok's exclusion
[21:01:26] <janrinok> I'm not sure you can sign off, can you?
[21:01:33] <xlefay> I'm fairly sure I can
[21:01:38] <xlefay> I'm a super admin!
[21:02:00] <xlefay> (really, I am, the highest level in slash)
[21:02:17] <janrinok> When as long as you are happy that the stories comply fully with both the editorial style guidlines and the legal requirements then I would be pleased to accept your generous offer.
[21:02:25] <xlefay> LOL
[21:02:31] <xlefay> .. on second note ;-)
[21:02:36] <janrinok> LOL back
[21:02:46] <xlefay> anyway, I'm still gonna read it anyway
[21:03:04] <xlefay> redundant statement is redundant
[21:03:10] <janrinok> Oh, anyone can read them - we even publish them on the interwebz thingy
[21:03:52] <xlefay> yep, but I enjoy reading things before to go public
[21:04:01] <janrinok> ...even super-admins. If you want some crayons to colour them in let me know ;-)
[21:04:04] <xlefay> so I can do some research first, etc.. and of course "FIRST COMMENT!!"
[21:04:22] * xlefay notes he still hasn't had a first comment anywhere, afaik
[21:07:16] <xlefay> ugh.. I can't even find it
[21:07:31] <xlefay> ok.. nvm that
[21:09:18] <janrinok> Bytram: can you have a look at the MSN/AIM story summary and see if you think it is any better than it was?
[21:09:23] <xlefay> he's off to dinner
[21:10:16] <janrinok> It will wait - it doesn't go for a few hours yet
[21:10:41] <xlefay> Did the surgery go well?
[21:11:32] <xlefay> .. wrong server, but oh well.. did the computer surgery go well, janrinok ? ;)
[21:14:48] <Bytram> janrinok: k
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[21:17:47] <n1> well that doesnt look good.
[21:18:06] <janrinok> yes, its working now - hi n1
[21:18:19] <n1> hi janrinok
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[21:19:56] <janrinok> n1 we were both working on the same story but you got yours posted before me, regarding the syphon. My dept was 'it-is-proven-that-the-earth-sucks'.
[21:20:23] <janrinok> could you also check the next one of mine to go out please?
[21:21:12] <n1> i tried to keep an eye as i saw you were editing, didnt catch we were on the same though!
[21:21:19] <n1> and i sure can
[21:21:21] <Bytram> janrinok: I have no problem with the story summary; it's just that the linked story is, well, pretty much "meh".
[21:21:35] <janrinok> no, and I missed your name too. We both dropped a little one there lol
[21:22:25] <n1> i changed it to your dept
[21:22:28] <janrinok> Bytram: yep, but it is the only source that we have and someone will like it - I know someone else won't but we never make them all happy.
[21:22:40] <Bytram> janrinok: maybe if there were a connection to something people have experience with? Have you ever had to make something work with somebody else's system, while they were trying to block you?
[21:22:50] <janrinok> n1 thx - I wasn't suggesting that but thx anyway.
[21:23:06] <n1> yours was better, i'm not really in the right frame of mind for that right now
[21:23:14] <Bytram> share their war stories, so to speak.
[21:23:24] <n1> trying to catch up a bit, work picked up out of nowhere
[21:23:36] <n1> also, hey Bytram :)
[21:23:43] <Bytram> n1: hiya!
[21:23:47] <janrinok> Well we can't change the source - it not allowed, but I can remember the days when it took place, although I didn't realise what was going on in the background
[21:24:08] <Bytram> janrinok: I'm going to update the story. back in a bit.
[21:24:42] <janrinok> I've got a story going out in about 10 minutes - can someone please double check it?
[21:25:17] <n1> im looking now
[21:25:22] <janrinok> thx
[21:26:33] <n1> seems good to me
[21:26:47] <janrinok> thx n1.
[21:27:04] <n1> im looking at the other one now
[21:27:07] <janrinok> we need to keep an eye on checking each other's stories.
[21:27:14] <n1> what story were you and Bytram talking about
[21:27:31] <Bytram> i'm on the MSN/AIM one
[21:27:45] <n1> ah ok
[21:27:56] <janrinok> MSN/AIM due out at about 23:50. Its a dry source but interesting if you can stick with it long enough
[21:29:03] <janrinok> n1: Woods picked a really difficult story and did a good job at trying to pull it together, but it is taking 3 of us so far to try to make it work.
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[21:31:55] <nick> connection here sucks
[21:32:12] <Bytram> janrinok: n1: I updated the MSN/AIM story. what do you think?
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[21:34:29] <janrinok> it works - let it go
[21:35:46] <janrinok> Bytram: ^^^^
[21:36:03] <Bytram> k
[21:37:56] <nick> seems ok to me, i'll be interested to see what reaction it gets
[21:38:26] <janrinok> oh, the usual whingers and those who say 'the other site is better' etc
[21:39:39] <Bytram> I made a minor fix to the title of the siphon story "Physicists" --> "Physicist's"
[21:40:11] <janrinok> good spot
[21:40:29] <janrinok> 2 grammar nazi spots in one day - brilliant
[21:40:48] <nick> lol7
[21:40:52] <Bytram> am about to release MSN/AIM story... what time do u want?
[21:41:00] <janrinok> as it is
[21:41:13] <Bytram> janrinok: you got it! on my way
[21:41:43] <nick> on my way out, just checking in to make sure things are good
[21:41:58] <janrinok> i think so = have a good one
[21:42:00] <nick> i'll try and get a few more up when i get back later
[21:42:25] <nick> you too, take care :)
[21:42:31] <Bytram> nick: cya!
[21:42:33] <janrinok> cu
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[21:46:36] <Bytram> janrinok: I looked at the queue and it seems like stories are scheduled pretty close together; maybe we should space them out a bit more?
[21:47:41] <janrinok> while we have more than 20 we are ok as we are. Once the 'Nagger' appears then we go to about 90 minutes and around 12-14 we space them even more.
[21:48:40] <janrinok> Ideally, if we had enough subs, we release them almost as fast as a single person can edit them - which is taken to be 20-30 minutes.
[21:49:49] <janrinok> The latter has only been tried once for about 3 hours. It worked but the downside is people come to expect it all the time!
[21:56:11] <Bytram> janrinok: ahh. ok. wasn't aware of that; I thought the idea was about 90 minutes apart was the "norm." Thanks for the clarification!
[21:57:29] <janrinok> when (IF) thing every settle down then we will tweak the figures but at the moment that is how we interpret them. You can use a bit of flex. Urgent stories go out immediately - don't bother rescheduling later stories.
[21:57:40] <janrinok> s/every/ever/
[21:58:11] <Bytram> works for me. thanks again!
[21:58:37] <janrinok> its been the 'norm' because of the lack of submissions!
[21:59:04] * Woods takes the hint.
[21:59:24] <janrinok> I every member submitted one story every 3 months we would have enough stories to work at the max rate all the time.
[21:59:33] <janrinok> s/I/If/
[22:00:16] <janrinok> Woods: we got you story out - bloody good effort on your part though. Read the logs about 1650-1710 ish
[22:01:21] <Bytram> janrinok: My IRC client shows that I have a differnet time zone than you; how *long ago* probably works better.
[22:01:57] <Woods> I have a UTC army-style clock on my desktop, so it works... Unfortunately, I have t ouse... MATH
[22:02:07] <janrinok> when we were first discussing the problem - which was 4 hours ago'ish
[22:02:41] <Woods> Nope, I lost power between now and then. I trust you guys did a good job with it.
[22:02:51] <Woods> I am not worried.
[22:05:16] <janrinok> Woods: Basically, it was a very good effort with a difficult story. I wouldn't have been surprised it you had quietly put it back in the sub list. It took 3 of us to turn it into something that might work - and that is not bad reflection on you.
[22:08:00] <janrinok> from now on I'm leaving all the tricky ones for you, Woods
[22:08:09] <Woods> Deal.
[22:08:33] <Woods> As long as I get a pay raise for each one... I am thinking... Double?
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[22:08:45] <janrinok> Triple what you are getting now
[22:08:45] <Bytram> Woods: found a link for you: http://logs.sylnt.us
[22:08:53] <Woods> Oh, triple!
[22:09:34] <Woods> oohh, a link.
[22:09:41] <Bytram> Woods: are you talking about a physical clock or some program running on your system?
[22:09:50] <Woods> Program
[22:10:15] <Bytram> are you running windows, by chance? I could use such a thing.
[22:10:21] <Woods> I use rainmeter to display all sorts of stuff, so I just added in a clock, and reconfigued it to display UTC.
[22:10:51] <Woods> Windows indeed. Rainmeter is basically an extra UI layer that sits on your desktop.
[22:11:07] <Bytram> hmmm.
[22:11:08] <Woods> http://rainmeter.net
[22:11:17] <Bytram> on my way.
[22:11:39] <janrinok> Ooops way past my bedtime - and _I_ need my beauty sleep. cu guys tomorrow.
[22:12:39] <Woods> Bye
[22:13:20] <janrinok> bye Woods
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[22:14:53] <Woods> Bytram: http://imgur.com
[22:15:09] <Woods> That is my desktop tricked out with a theme named Omnimo.
[22:19:53] <Bytram> Woods: I'm pressed for memory (and screen real-estate). How is it on resources?
[22:20:29] <Bytram> I'
[22:20:36] <Woods> With all that stuff running, it takes about 30K.
[22:20:57] <Woods> But since you said you really just want the clock, I bet you could siginificantly cut it.
[22:21:30] <Bytram> Great! I've been using Uptimer4 for ages and, from a quick look, this may be a suitable replacement, too.
[22:21:59] <Woods> And, based on the name, incredibly more versatile.
[22:22:51] <Woods> You would not need the Omnimo theme to get the clock.
[22:23:07] <Woods> There may even be one already created somewhere in a repository, I am sure.
[22:23:58] <Bytram> Actually, I've yet tosee a more information-dense display that uptimer4. Unfortunately, it's no longer maintained. See: http://www.spywareinfo.com
[22:24:58] <Woods> I think your URL got jacked.
[22:25:21] <Bytram> could be; that's where I originally got it from.
[22:25:42] <Bytram> blergh.
[22:25:47] <Woods> It sounds familiar though.
[22:31:25] <Bytram> I haveit customized to show: battery power; CPU usage graph; Uptime; Free RAM (fraction and graph); Free Pagefile (fraction and graph); Free Disk Space; Internet Up/Down speed and graphs; current IP address; Netstat items; volume control; and status of ockable keys (Num, Caps, Scroll, Insert) and it all fits in a space of 196w x 252h pixels.
[22:31:47] <Bytram> s/ockable/lockable/
[22:32:15] <Woods> All of that is doable, though you may have to take a frame someone built and tweak it yourself.
[22:32:38] <Woods> Typically, people who make Rainmeter skins, do so because they want something to look stylish.
[22:38:23] <Bytram> So, just take some existing stuff and add to it. Sounds doable. I just finished douwnloading it.
[22:39:14] <Woods> If you need help at all, let me know. I have been tweaking Rainmeter stuff for a while. There are also a ton of sites that show how to do whatever you need.
[22:40:34] <Woods> Ah, the rainmeter site itself has its own "docs" section, with references to meters and all that jazz.
[22:46:02] <Bytram> Woods: thanks. just saw the link.
[22:46:07] * Bytram needs more time in my day
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