#staff | Logs for 2014-08-21

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[00:00:28] <Bytram> I still think that items which have some kind of "time-stamp" associated with them will boost sales. Limited edition -- don't miss out!
[00:00:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> nix the 50% idea. i'm staff and know ahead of time that it's really a donation and $20 for a coffee mug is already a little hurty.
[00:00:41] <mrcoolbp> Bytram: we can expand on it later
[00:00:43] <prospectacle> audioguy, you could have a few minor features that accompany a gold-start subscription, e.g. longer comment history on your user page, or two extra tags available in your journal. Then it's not just a donation.
[00:00:44] -!- Ethanol-fueled [Ethanol-fueled!~62b0c2de@cp88-216-234-862.sd.sd.cox.net] has parted #staff
[00:00:55] <Bytram> e.g. coffee mug: coffee++ \n [2014]
[00:01:15] -!- mj has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[00:01:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, we can change the logo to match a theme every year end
[00:02:08] <Bytram> nod nod; details are not so important as is the concept. Like getting a 2-digit uid...
[00:02:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> or every SN birthday. whichever.
[00:02:17] <Bytram> exactly!
[00:02:54] <NCommander> Ugh
[00:02:56] <NCommander> sorry
[00:02:56] * Bytram notes that an hour has elapsed
[00:02:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> mrcoolbp, good, bad, dumb idea?
[00:03:06] <NCommander> My laptop decided that was a perfectly good time to panic
[00:03:12] <NCommander> What did I miss? I saw mrcoolbp's summary
[00:03:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> i said the 50% was a bad idea and by suggested making swag limited edition by date acquired.
[00:04:10] <NCommander> Ulitmately, with both this and subscriptions
[00:04:17] <NCommander> Its hard to know how much (if any) revenue it will take
[00:04:22] -!- NCommander has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[00:04:43] <Bytram> see the PM; I copy/pasted it ther.
[00:05:14] -!- NCommander [NCommander!~mcasadeva@2600:3c00::gkjo:ggkm:vshr:juyz] has joined #staff
[00:05:21] <mrcoolbp> TheMightyBuzzard: we can make anything easily
[00:05:21] <Bytram> matt_: question as to running the meeting? what is quorum?
[00:05:37] -!- rand has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[00:05:38] -!- NCommander has quit [Changing host]
[00:05:38] -!- NCommander [NCommander!~mcasadeva@Soylent/Staff/Sysop/mcasadevall] has joined #staff
[00:05:38] -!- mode/#staff [+v NCommander] by juggler
[00:05:42] <NCommander> .op
[00:05:42] -!- mode/#staff [+o NCommander] by juggler
[00:05:48] <NCommander> Ugh
[00:05:51] <Bytram> do *all* three board members need to be present for descions to hold weight?
[00:05:51] <matt_> Bytram, so for a board meeting, a quorum constitutes a majority of the directors then in office.
[00:06:06] <Bytram> so, two out of three is sufficient?
[00:06:29] <matt_> Bytram, however, since we have not yet amended the bylaws to allow board meetings on irc, we've been taking advantage of the "action without a meeting" provision of our bylaws.
[00:06:37] <matt_> Bytram, which requires unanimity.
[00:06:39] <LaminatorX> Do the bylaws have any rules for Staff meetings as distinct from Board meetings?
[00:06:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> matt_, slackers.
[00:06:52] <matt_> LaminatorX, the bylaws do not mention staff.
[00:06:55] <Bytram> LaminatorX: not to my recall; entirely separate area.
[00:07:01] <mrcoolbp> ^^^
[00:07:18] <matt_> LaminatorX, SoylentNews PBC Bylaws: http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[00:07:34] <LaminatorX> Thanks.
[00:07:37] -!- NC|WebChat [NC|WebChat!~a6935821@ndnflnvjrd4nn578-fcm.mycingular.net] has joined #staff
[00:07:44] <NC|WebChat> Something is seriously wrong on my end
[00:07:53] <mrcoolbp> okay, so looks like most are relatively happy with the Store/Prices, though they call for more items. Is that about right?
[00:07:55] <NC|WebChat> mrcoolbp: please take over, I don't know how stable my connection will be on my end
[00:08:01] * NC|WebChat is troubleshooting
[00:08:11] <mrcoolbp> matt_ can you chair?
[00:08:23] <matt_> mrcoolbp, i second the "more items" idea.
[00:08:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> mrcoolbp, sounds right. we can discuss the timed versioning nearer an anniversary.
[00:08:27] <matt_> mrcoolbp, sure!
[00:08:33] <Bytram> for the record, 'NC|webchat" is, presumably the same person as 'NCommander'
[00:08:38] <mrcoolbp> matt_ thanks
[00:08:48] * NC|WebChat will kill his proxy in a moment and NickServ ID
[00:08:54] -!- NCommander has quit [Client Quit]
[00:09:02] NC|WebChat is now known as NCommander
[00:09:04] <mrcoolbp> matt_ so I'm good with moving on to the next issue if you are
[00:09:06] <juggs> NC /ghost is your friend
[00:09:09] <prospectacle> What if it's not a gold star, but instead you can choose your own icon from a list. Then you're selling a feature.
[00:09:14] -!- NCommander has quit [Changing host]
[00:09:14] -!- NCommander [NCommander!~a6935821@Soylent/Staff/Sysop/mcasadevall] has joined #staff
[00:09:14] -!- mode/#staff [+v NCommander] by juggler
[00:09:15] <mrcoolbp> unless NCommander has anythign to add on the swag
[00:09:26] <mrcoolbp> prospectacle: I like that idea
[00:09:34] <NCommander> I don't, aside from the fact that we have no certainities on success
[00:09:40] <mrcoolbp> sure
[00:09:46] <Bytram> prospectacle: interesting concept, but I think we could get lost in lots of implementation details.
[00:09:50] <mrcoolbp> * NCommander (~a6935821@ndnflnvjrd4nn578-fcm.mycingular.net) Quit (Changing host)
[00:09:56] <mrcoolbp> ooops
[00:10:01] <matt_> mrcoolbp, i suspect that shortly after the full launch of the swag store, you will get quite a bit of feedback from the community :)
[00:10:08] <mrcoolbp> .voice prospectacle
[00:10:08] -!- mode/#staff [+v prospectacle] by juggler
[00:10:08] <mrcoolbp> <prospectacle> What if it's not a gold star, but instead you can choose your own icon from a list. Then you're selling a feature.
[00:10:25] <mrcoolbp> matt_ yes, I was hoping to avoid pitchforks
[00:10:33] * mrcoolbp dawns pitchfork armor +8874
[00:10:41] <Bytram> is it generally agreed that we're generally in favor of offering *some kind* of site-based 'thing' in exchange for a subscription?
[00:10:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> mrcoolbp, we're not +m right now. i heard him fine.
[00:10:52] <Bytram> details to be determined later.
[00:10:53] <mrcoolbp> oh, I see
[00:11:20] <NCommander> Bytram: possibly
[00:11:22] <NCommander> We're getting ratholed
[00:11:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> personally i like the idea but shurg.
[00:11:24] <mrcoolbp> Bytram: I think so, NCommander wanted an ACK from a CPA thing, but it's probably okay
[00:11:42] <NCommander> Right now, until we manage to get what we have going, its all just speculation
[00:11:49] <Bytram> I'd favor a CPA ack, too.
[00:11:49] <audioguy> We have many people who have offered to jusy donate in the past. It seems to me those should be taken care of first. Whether gold star or postcard. After that, we can try oout things like special privileges or graphics.
[00:11:59] <NCommander> audioguy: indeed
[00:12:09] <Bytram> audioguy++
[00:12:09] <Bender> karma - audioguy: 10
[00:12:12] <NCommander> RIght now, as I said, lets launch what we have, then come back next time and know where we need to expand
[00:12:17] <NCommander> I think we can move on, no?
[00:12:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> do eet
[00:12:26] <matt_> Aye!
[00:12:28] <mrcoolbp> Aye
[00:12:30] <Bytram> s, what was decided?
[00:12:35] <Bytram> s/s/so/
[00:12:42] <paulej72> all of that is setup on one leve of subscriptions. if you want that chenged to multi level subs it is going to require a lot of work
[00:12:48] <mrcoolbp> .topic "What mechanism should we use to transfer important assets (accounts, domains, database, other rights, etc.) to the corporation? Here is a discussion of possible mechanisms"
[00:12:48] juggler changed topic of #staff to: "What mechanism should we use to transfer important assets (accounts, domains, database, other rights, etc.) to the corporation? Here is a discussion of possible mechanisms"
[00:12:54] <mrcoolbp> http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[00:13:09] <Bytram> afk brb
[00:13:13] <audioguy> So the question is, what are we going to tell the next person who wants to donate? Buy a gold star on our site?
[00:13:15] * NCommander hears sharks in the water
[00:13:34] <mrcoolbp> audioguy: we're not quite there yet
[00:13:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> audioguy, that or an unobtanium keychain
[00:13:36] <NCommander> audioguy: I'd love to accept donations if possible. Too many unknown knowns
[00:13:39] <mrcoolbp> that will require some backend work
[00:13:45] <mrcoolbp> as per paulej72 above
[00:13:57] <mrcoolbp> we can't just Accept Donations currently
[00:14:07] <mrcoolbp> we need to be liscensed in all states
[00:14:27] <mrcoolbp> or registered or whatever
[00:15:01] <NCommander> folks
[00:15:06] <NCommander> We're already running over
[00:15:06] <mrcoolbp> yessir?
[00:15:11] <mrcoolbp> ah
[00:15:13] <juggs> register an office in pisspotamia and takedonations via that organ
[00:15:20] <audioguy> So let them donate on a page in (where we incorporated)
[00:15:42] <mrcoolbp> I have about 30 min before I gotta run off
[00:15:48] <NCommander> audioguy: its a more complicated isue than that; ping me after the meeting and we'll go into detail
[00:15:50] <audioguy> table this then
[00:15:56] <mrcoolbp> yes
[00:15:59] <audioguy> ok
[00:16:02] * NCommander is not trying to block discussions, but tick-tock :-/
[00:16:13] <NCommander> Ok, the all powerful blocker on stuff
[00:16:17] <mrcoolbp> .topic "What mechanism should we use to transfer important assets (accounts, domains, database, other rights, etc.) to the corporation?"
[00:16:17] juggler changed topic of #staff to: "What mechanism should we use to transfer important assets (accounts, domains, database, other rights, etc.) to the corporation?"
[00:16:25] <matt_> <@mrcoolbp> http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[00:16:28] <NCommander> matt_: do you care to sum up the situation
[00:16:44] <matt_> sure:
[00:17:30] <matt_> basically, i think that the key concept is that we need to transfer some important assets to the corporation, as detailed on the above wiki page.
[00:17:41] <matt_> normally, this is done in connection with the issuance of stock, however,
[00:17:56] <matt_> at last Wednesday's meeting, we decided to explore alternatives
[00:17:57] <Bytram> back
[00:18:34] <NCommander> Do we have any reasonable alternatives?
[00:18:51] * NCommander notes that the big hangup with stock was an issue of voiting power, not to rehash that entire discussion
[00:19:14] <matt_> well, in my opinion, no great ones. issuing bonds will place the corp. in debt, and would likely require registration and filing with the SEC...
[00:19:16] * Bytram agrees
[00:19:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, corporate bonds would eliminate that and could even be sold for $currencyOfChoice
[00:19:36] <LaminatorX> SEC--
[00:19:36] <Bender> karma - sec: -1
[00:19:41] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard: matt_ looked into it :-/
[00:19:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[00:19:47] <matt_> writing a license (like a payment plan or "lease to own") would be quite complex.
[00:20:09] <mrcoolbp> i.e. we'd need an expert to do that ?"
[00:20:19] <audioguy> Whjy can't an ordinary promissory note be used? These are operating expenses, mostly. We are late paying out phone bill and someone paid it for us...
[00:20:20] <NCommander> Which would probably be the "sanest" approach from where I am sitting
[00:20:38] -!- rand [rand!~rand@cea-547.64-463-42.nts-online.net] has joined #staff
[00:20:42] <NCommander> matt_: is audioguy's point an option?
[00:20:47] <matt_> mrcoolbp, we could do it, but it misses a critical issue, in my opinion:
[00:21:01] <matt_> audioguy, if we default on the note, what happens?
[00:21:12] <matt_> audioguy, normally, this would be bankruptcy.
[00:21:22] * NCommander notes if we default on the note, the assets are pretty worthless anyway
[00:21:28] <NCommander> .... shoot me for that pun
[00:21:37] <audioguy> What the rerms written in the note says. But no sec approval required
[00:21:53] <matt_> mrcoolbp, in my view it is important to establish the capital structure of the corp.
[00:22:06] <matt_> which means, having stockholders, for the following reason:
[00:22:07] <audioguy> For gods sake $2000 or so is penuts to most businesses.
[00:22:17] <NCommander> audioguy: I'm aware of that
[00:22:21] <matt_> without stockholders, there is no way to hold the board accountable for its actions.
[00:22:27] <mrcoolbp> Definition of 'Capital Structure'
[00:22:27] <mrcoolbp> A mix of a company's long-term debt, specific short-term debt, common equity and preferred equity. The capital structure is how a firm finances its overall operations and growth by using different sources of funds.
[00:22:27] <mrcoolbp> Debt comes in the form of bond issues or long-term notes payable, while equity is classified as common stock, preferred stock or retained earnings. Short-term debt such as working capital requirements is also considered to be part of the capital structure.
[00:22:43] <matt_> for example, SoylentNews PBC was set up for a specific public benefit purpose:
[00:22:45] <NCommander> matt_: and no different that a non-member non-for-profit
[00:22:52] <matt_> "The specific public benefit purpose of the Corporation is to engage in and promote free and open journalism through the production, publication, and community-sourced analysis and discussion of news and original and third-party-sourced works of fact and opinion. "
[00:23:01] <matt_> ^ that is in our certificate of incorporation.
[00:23:16] <matt_> without stockholders, there is no one who can require the board to adhere to that purpose.
[00:23:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> 'sa fair point
[00:23:27] <matt_> also, keep in mind the following:
[00:23:50] <matt_> there is a big difference betweeen SoylentNews (the site/community) and SoylentNews PBC (a Delaware public benefit corporation):
[00:23:51] <NCommander> Part of this is why I want to get directly involvement from the community on the board, via elections and such
[00:24:05] <matt_> SoylentNews (the site/community) can't be owned, because... ...it's people!
[00:24:07] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: that's still possible
[00:24:19] <matt_> but SN PBC needs stockholders to hold the board accountable.
[00:24:26] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: I agree with you about disliking the condensing of powers but ^^
[00:24:33] <NCommander> matt_: what holds the board of a NFP accountable?
[00:24:35] <matt_> remember that the PBC exists simply to manage the site's assets/business.
[00:24:39] <LaminatorX> Perhaps board elections as a subscriber privilege?
[00:24:51] <mrcoolbp> yeah, nice.
[00:24:53] <NCommander> LaminatorX: that's dangerous terroritatory
[00:25:02] <mrcoolbp> oh, good point NCommander
[00:25:17] <mrcoolbp> $ Shall not give thee more voice
[00:25:17] <prospectacle> LaminatorX, then you can anonymously buy lots of subscriptions and (quasi)control the board
[00:25:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> s'why i suggested balancing the stock issued to NC/matt_ with an equal issuance to staff. got a check and balance right there.
[00:25:19] <LaminatorX> Less so than voting be shares of stock perhaps.
[00:25:29] <Bytram> NCommander++ someone with $bignum could impose *their* view on the board and hence, the site.
[00:25:29] <Bender> karma - ncommander: 19
[00:25:53] <audioguy> I do not think just two people omn the board is appropriate. It is simply too few.
[00:25:58] <mrcoolbp> TheMightyBuzzard: there's issue with that too
[00:25:59] <NCommander> audioguy: three
[00:26:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> mrcoolbp, suck
[00:26:07] * NCommander notes expanded the board is on my TODO
[00:26:23] <matt_> LaminatorX, the shareholders are like the supreme court. if there isnt one, then the board isn't accountable to the founding principles.
[00:26:27] <mrcoolbp> I think we should move towards 5 memebers
[00:26:35] <NCommander> mrcoolbp: *nod*
[00:26:39] <NCommander> mrcoolbp: agreed, but offtopic
[00:26:43] <mrcoolbp> yes
[00:26:46] <audioguy> But ther proposal would have rediuced that from what I understand. Three is too few too, I suggest 5 as a minimum.
[00:26:54] <LaminatorX> How does the gaming subs scenario compare risk wise to buying up shares?
[00:26:59] <matt_> if all decisions are made by elected officials, minority viewpoints are easily quashed.
[00:27:03] <mrcoolbp> Audioguy: That is not technically correct
[00:27:13] <LaminatorX> Is our PBC close-held?
[00:27:21] <NCommander> LaminatorX: we have issued no stock as of date
[00:27:25] <mrcoolbp> audioguy: i.e. the board still exists, I still ahave 33%
[00:27:28] <NCommander> The board has the option to do so per the bylaws
[00:27:29] <mrcoolbp> voting power
[00:27:32] <audioguy> mrcoolbp: I though I remembered you saying that
[00:27:36] <mrcoolbp> well, kinda
[00:27:41] <Bytram> as I see it, there's two different 'concepts' at play here. (1) how to keep the board in check (capital stock). (2) How to reimburse original investnts (capital stock). Is that correct?
[00:27:50] <mrcoolbp> they can now override me if they have the stock
[00:27:53] <NCommander> Bytram: more or less
[00:28:02] <mrcoolbp> yes
[00:28:03] <audioguy> Stock is poer.
[00:28:04] <matt_> LaminatorX, our PBC isn't held at all (because there are no stockholders :)
[00:28:09] <audioguy> power
[00:28:14] <NCommander> I feel 1. should be handled by community involvement of oard members, SOME NFPs do this via member elections
[00:28:27] <NCommander> (most NFPs are board-only and succceed themselves, including ones like the EFF)
[00:29:08] <Bytram> so, the 'capital stock' is a *means* to an end for item (2); but is a *requirement* for item (1)?
[00:29:12] <NCommander> 2. I have no issue with reimbursement, but any powers granted to the debt holder should terminate at the end of that debt.
[00:29:25] <matt_> Bytram, that's a fair assessment.
[00:29:32] <Bytram> matt_: thanks!
[00:29:42] <NCommander> Bytram: the problem is the board has no grounds to force a buyback of stock. It many be a long time before we have sufficent assets to pay off everything in full
[00:29:49] <LaminatorX> Public and community broadcasters typically have their boards via paying membership holders. Credit unions also.
[00:29:52] <NCommander> Bytram: what happens if I go mad?
[00:30:10] <Bytram> I'll buy you a beer to cheer you up?
[00:30:11] <mrcoolbp> LaminatorX: we'd like to more closely imitate NFPs though
[00:30:19] <juggs> NCommander, I come after you with a flamethrower.
[00:30:27] <audioguy> That is why we need five board members, as that is a distinct possibility :-)
[00:30:30] <Bytram> NCommander: but you *do* raise a valid point; well taken.
[00:30:31] <NCommander> We went with B-incorporation because it was least amount of questions/cost
[00:30:36] <LaminatorX> s/via/elected via
[00:30:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> audioguy, number of board members does nothing vs stockholders
[00:30:49] <NCommander> Folks, I don't object to talking about expanded the board
[00:30:54] <NCommander> But lets please keep this on topic
[00:30:55] <audioguy> Both are issues.
[00:31:03] <Bytram> okay, let's assume we increase the size of the board... what positions do we now have? and what would we add?
[00:31:11] <Bytram> oops. nvm
[00:31:11] <mrcoolbp> matt_ ^
[00:31:15] <mrcoolbp> oh.
[00:31:17] <NCommander> Stock != size of the board
[00:31:24] <mrcoolbp> ^^
[00:31:27] <matt_> ^^^
[00:31:32] <NCommander> Stockholders can elect board members, and they can set the size of the board should they choose
[00:31:47] <matt_> but they should only do so if *absolutely* necessary.
[00:31:53] <mrcoolbp> AND override the board, but ^^^^^^
[00:31:53] <audioguy> I would like to see the board expanded first, then a possible tranfer of asets to the corp through stock that recodnizes others than just NC and Matt's contributions.
[00:31:54] <paulej72> I have a question if we issue stock and we need more captital to keep going what then?
[00:31:55] <matt_> the stockholders are the final check.
[00:32:23] <NCommander> If the company defaults, then stock holders are in line to get stuff after creditors, debitor, preferred stock holders (not relevent here) get their share
[00:32:27] <mrcoolbp> paulej72: matt and NCommander said they may be able to contribute more money depending
[00:32:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, seems we're either going to have to trust the shareholders, you and matt_, or we have to trust the board members, you and matt_ and mrcoolbp
[00:32:31] <mrcoolbp> I beleive
[00:32:36] <matt_> paulej72, we would have all options that we currently have, including issuing more stock.
[00:32:52] <mrcoolbp> TheMightyBuzzard: the difference is I can be voted out. They would not be able to be
[00:33:07] * mrcoolbp wants to stay on the island
[00:33:10] <mrcoolbp> = )
[00:33:13] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard: we can change the board to expand it, which is something that obvious should be done soonish, and move to involve the community as soon as possible
[00:33:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> honestly that does not lend confidence to me. the more cooks the worse things end up.
[00:33:51] <prospectacle> re: the transfer of assets: Is it worth waiting a week after swag+subscriptions go live and see if you have enough money to just buy the assets?
[00:34:11] <NCommander> prospectacle: there's a legal hiccup that this decision is best made before $$$ comes in
[00:34:16] <mrcoolbp> ^^^
[00:34:19] <NCommander> Its not impossible to issue stock afterwords but ...
[00:34:26] <matt_> prospectacle, the "valuation" of the stock would increase...
[00:34:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, IOU from the company to the proposed shareholders to be revisited after a month or two of store/subs?
[00:34:51] <prospectacle> ah
[00:34:57] <audioguy> Stock may be exchanged for value contributed other than money.
[00:35:24] <matt_> audioguy, exactly, and this is the mechanism that was proposed to ensure an exact 50/50 split between me and NC, to maintain that balance.
[00:35:26] <mrcoolbp> TheMightyBuzzard: That would be the "promisory note" option (discussion above)
[00:35:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[00:35:45] <NCommander> My hangup is the board can't force a buyback of stock
[00:35:47] <NCommander> Who watches the watchmen
[00:35:49] <Bytram> proposal: less "ongoing expenses", I propose that any excess income from swag, subscriptions, etc. be used to repay current stockholders... would that advance the situation?
[00:35:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> use it but only as a short-term stopgap so that this discussion may not be necessary.
[00:35:58] <NCommander> The only thing the board can do is issue MORE stock, which to me is putting gas on a fire
[00:36:03] <audioguy> The question in my mind is whay matt_ feels he is intitled to 50% of the stock.
[00:36:10] <matt_> Bytram, frankly, i would rather see income from swag, etc. go towards the site first.
[00:36:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> audioguy, easy there big guy
[00:36:18] <NCommander> audioguy: in terms of money in, matt_ actually has more than I do
[00:36:29] <mrcoolbp> ^^
[00:36:37] <audioguy> I do not know these details.
[00:36:40] <matt_> audioguy :) it is simply a mechanism to prevent a single person from being a majority shareholder.
[00:36:40] * NCommander was able to refund a LOT of B's large expenses which reduced my debts
[00:36:56] <Bytram> matt_: I'm open to a rephrasing, just wanted to put something out there that would get us along the way.
[00:37:19] <prospectacle> If you want to act like an NFP instead of a FP, then stock should not be proprotion to the assets someone invested. Assets should be paid for (perhaps with an promissory note) and stock should be considered separately by separate rules
[00:37:31] <audioguy> I would like to see a specific accounting.
[00:37:34] <NCommander> prospectacle: non-for-profits can't issue stock, period
[00:37:41] <matt_> Bytram, you bring up an important point, though. issuing stock would avoid putting the corp. into debt, so any money raised from swag, etc. could go to original content, paying editors, etc., etc.
[00:37:41] <NCommander> audioguy: I posted it a few weeks ago in GNUcash
[00:38:00] <mrcoolbp> audioguy: I've reviewed it as well
[00:38:05] <audioguy> Ok.
[00:38:05] <prospectacle> NCommander, true, but to the extent that they represent control, a comparison can be made
[00:38:06] <Bytram> question: just how much does SoylentNews PBC owe the 'original investors', at this pont?
[00:38:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> seriously though. is there issue with issuance of prommisory notes to be revisited in 2-3 months just so we can get this off the ground?
[00:38:09] <NCommander> matt_: but ulitmately, that stock could come do at any point when the stockholders sell
[00:38:20] * NCommander is for the promisory note
[00:38:29] <NCommander> If we default, well, we're kinda fucked all around anyway
[00:38:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> if you default you issue another
[00:38:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> don't specify the means of payment
[00:39:04] * NCommander is mulling
[00:39:22] * Bytram sips mulled cider
[00:39:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> could be stock, bonds, another promisory note, beer.
[00:39:26] <NCommander> matt_: could we simply issue stock to the board itself, and hold it in reserve until we can figure this out once and for all?
[00:39:27] <matt_> TheMightyBuzzard, i think it would basically amount to a donation, if the proissory note isn't really expected to be repaid
[00:39:28] <juggs> nah, just issue some more promisary notes - seems to work for the bankers :)
[00:39:44] <mrcoolbp> guys, I have to go very soon
[00:39:47] * NCommander suspects that will create more trouble
[00:39:52] <matt_> NCommander, how would that relate to the transfer of assets?
[00:39:52] <NCommander> mrcoolbp: :-/
[00:40:12] <NCommander> matt_: more that if we decide that stock is the right option, the board can just transfer is own assets then trying to generate stock at a later date
[00:40:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> matt_, it should be repaid just unclear as to exactly when. so we hopscotch along every 3 months as necessary and as you two are willing to say okay.
[00:40:31] * NCommander is still object to issuing stock at all, but is trying to be part of the solution
[00:41:24] <Bytram> NCommander: stock looks to be a 'necessary evil', according to what matt_ wrote, to keep the board 'in check'?
[00:41:30] <matt_> NCommander, i think the bigger issue is having a mechanism to hold the board accountable to the public benefit purpose of the corp.
[00:41:30] <audioguy> I still think stock should be issued more broadly, for more than just monetary contributions.
[00:41:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's debt, yes, but if you two are untrustworthy right now we're kinda screwed anyway
[00:41:44] * NCommander agrees w/ audioguy's point
[00:42:07] <NCommander> matt_: but there are other mechanisms available to that end
[00:42:16] <matt_> such as?
[00:42:19] <audioguy> I amm just not comfortable with the same tow people having all the stock and a majority on the board.
[00:42:19] <NCommander> ones that don't leave us with a potential permament watchdog
[00:42:27] <Bytram> audioguy++ some folks have contributed no *cash*, but in sweat equity at going rates, something worth a lot of $$
[00:42:27] <Bender> karma - audioguy: 11
[00:42:42] <prospectacle> Can stock be made non-transferrable (i.e. "we can buy it back but you can't sell it to your friend")?
[00:42:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, that was a given
[00:43:00] <prospectacle> good
[00:43:00] <matt_> prospectacle, according to our bylaws, the board must approve any transfer of stock.
[00:43:04] <mrcoolbp> that is already the case
[00:43:06] <NCommander> matt_: define a set of electors for the board, perhaps from subscription members, who can call for a vote of no-confidence
[00:43:09] <Bytram> prospectacle: According to the bylaws, the PBC has right of first refusal. IIRC.
[00:43:12] <mrcoolbp> well what matt_ said
[00:43:21] <audioguy> paulej72 never seems to sleep, at his rate his contributions would probably be in 10s of thousands by now.
[00:43:31] <Bytram> zactly
[00:43:37] <matt_> NCommander, even if it adopted such a rule, the board could change it at will.
[00:43:38] <Bytram> then there's the editors
[00:43:52] <NCommander> matt_: and the board can issue more stock at will
[00:44:02] <matt_> please note that stock != money.
[00:44:10] <matt_> as in, you can't buy food with it :)
[00:44:15] <NCommander> We're talking about oversight here
[00:44:41] <audioguy> it is power.
[00:45:01] <matt_> NCommander, the point being that if the board adopts a rule to restrict its activities, it can always rescind that rule if there are no stockholders.
[00:45:03] <Bytram> yeah, we kind of slid over here from the discussion on how to repay the original $$ investments.
[00:45:17] * NCommander fires a cannon to get back on topic
[00:45:21] <matt_> Bytram, the two are pretty linked, though.
[00:45:24] -!- LaminatorX has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[00:45:24] <prospectacle> Can/should you have a hard limit of # stock-per-person, to minimise the risk of domination?
[00:45:27] <Bytram> yup
[00:45:54] <NCommander> matt_: the flip side of that coin though is you have board-only NFPs which don't (and can't) have stock holders.
[00:45:56] <Bytram> (ugh. yup was directed at matt_ )
[00:46:16] <mrcoolbp> matt_ NCommander: I'll need to leave in a few minutes, I'm guessing we're not near a vote on this
[00:46:19] <matt_> NCommander, and they can't take advantage of capital markets.
[00:46:20] <mrcoolbp> I'm happy if y'all continue discussion, but I'm going to ask that no more votes be held
[00:46:33] <NCommander> mrcoolbp: fair enough
[00:46:50] <matt_> mrcoolbp, ok.
[00:46:52] <NCommander> matt_: are we planning to do that?
[00:47:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> board gents, you lot need to decide something soonest. not deciding alone can sink the site.
[00:47:05] <Bytram> mrcoolbp++ thank-you for your contributions here, in the swag store, and everything!
[00:47:06] <Bender> karma - mrcoolbp: 9
[00:47:14] * NCommander would prefer to opreate as an NFP until the point we have assets to actually incorporate one as an umbrella
[00:47:36] <matt_> basically, that's what issuing stock would mean. in other words, if we were a nonprofit, we wouldn't have the option of issuing stock to avoid debt.
[00:48:09] <NCommander> And in that nonprofit world, what would be the correct way to handle this situation?
[00:48:14] <juggs> All I am seeing here is circular discussions. I move to table this discussion with an action on ~someone~ to come up with a better topic than "What mechanism should we use to transfer important assets (accounts, domains, database, other rights, etc.) to the corporation?". i.e. Present the realistic options and discuss those. Otherwise this discussion will go on forever with no tangible outcome.
[00:48:15] * NCommander is asking
[00:48:30] <NCommander> juggs: welcome to the last two rounds of this -_-;
[00:48:41] <matt_> juggs, so, that was the purpose of the wiki page :/
[00:48:49] <matt_> which didn't generate much discussion...
[00:48:55] <matt_> http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[00:48:57] <NCommander> matt_: I thought you were still editing it
[00:49:08] <matt_> it's been complete for a few days now.
[00:49:13] <NCommander> ... oops
[00:49:16] <NCommander> My bad
[00:49:18] <audioguy> I suugest that at least each board member come uop with a specific proposal, in detail on how to solve this, along with amy staff that wants to submit one.
[00:49:33] * NCommander agrees w/ audioguy and will do that
[00:49:38] <NCommander> I thikn matt_'s position is pretyt well known :-)
[00:50:01] <mrcoolbp> I'm for the promisory note thing with an ammendum to look into some means of oversight (though he already considers the board oversight)
[00:50:06] <audioguy> matt_: already listed some options, though somewhat vaguely. I am talking specific that can actually voted on.
[00:50:09] <NCommander> We did vote at the last meeting if we couldn't resolve it, it would go to the community to decide
[00:50:26] <mrcoolbp> ^^^^^^^^^^
[00:50:37] <audioguy> This hard shit :-)
[00:50:41] <matt_> on last monday ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[00:50:50] <NCommander> Ok
[00:50:59] <NCommander> I'll take an action item to write up a realistic alternative
[00:51:13] <NCommander> mrcoolbp: you're welcome to join in with your own, else not
[00:51:14] * juggs applies short circuit to this item
[00:51:18] <Bytram> unless I missed something, is a promissory note still a viable way to handle the issue of repayment to the 'founders' for their investments? (perhaps as some precentage of net income from subscripions and swag)
[00:51:21] <matt_> audioguy, i circulated detailed docs to NC and mrcoolbp several weeks ago.
[00:51:45] <NCommander> On Friday, we'll do a brief meeting on this topic alone to see if we can unstick ourselves
[00:51:49] <NCommander> If not, it goes to the community
[00:51:54] <Bytram> that would get one aspect behind us, and then we could discuss governing concerns
[00:51:55] <NCommander> Objections?
[00:52:07] <matt_> NCommander, i suggest that the proposal be focused on only the following item: accountability of the board.
[00:52:12] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: can't do friday, I can do tomorrow
[00:52:14] <matt_> we can deal with any reimbursement later.
[00:52:15] <NCommander> Seconded
[00:52:22] <NCommander> matt_: ok, that's perfectly fine by me
[00:52:24] <Bytram> I work late on friday (and saturday)
[00:52:38] <NCommander> matt_: on the terms of repayment only, would you be ok with a promisary note?
[00:52:49] <NCommander> or more specifically
[00:52:53] <NCommander> Would it be a viable option
[00:53:07] * mrcoolbp get's ready to leave
[00:53:10] <NCommander> mrcoolbp: ok, lets bring this up tomorrow ~approx same time
[00:53:17] <NCommander> See if we can unstick this without causing community drama
[00:53:18] <mrcoolbp> sure!
[00:53:21] <matt_> NCommander, frankly, depending on what the community wants to do about the accountability issue, i might prefer to just donate.
[00:53:22] <NCommander> Else we bring it to the community
[00:53:30] <NCommander> matt_: I'll do the same
[00:53:53] <NCommander> Well, whatever happens, we do it together
[00:53:58] <matt_> ok. now, who's ready for a staff meeting? =)
[00:54:03] <NCommander> Hold on
[00:54:05] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: do we need to vote to solidify that action item?
[00:54:13] <mrcoolbp> of NOt going to the community yet
[00:54:17] <juggs> Right - so whois taking what actions from that item?
[00:54:26] <Bytram> ^^^
[00:54:29] <NCommander> Vote to enact NCommander's discussed plan above?
[00:54:39] <NCommander> Action: NCommander to come up with proposals for oversight
[00:54:56] <NCommander> Action: NCommander to come up w/ proposals for reimbursement
[00:55:11] <juggs> By tomorrow apparently
[00:55:18] <NCommander> Action: The board reconvienes tomorrow ~approximately same time to discuss and vote on this issue
[00:55:22] <NCommander> juggs: you haven't seen me write
[00:55:28] <mrcoolbp> ROFL
[00:55:28] <juggs> yes I have
[00:55:38] <mrcoolbp> it's a sight to behold in person though
[00:55:39] -!- LaminatorX [LaminatorX!~470ab0b6@23-00-716-777.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #staff
[00:55:40] <NCommander> juggs: you haven't see the SPEED at which I write
[00:55:53] <NCommander> I'll put it on chillax, and on staff mailing lists
[00:55:59] <NCommander> Ok, let's get a vote on this
[00:56:00] <NCommander> Aye
[00:56:03] <matt_> Aye!
[00:56:04] <juggs> And it is copious. Which means others will not have time to absorb your output in time
[00:56:15] <NCommander> I'll set a word limit
[00:56:15] <NCommander> :-P
[00:56:20] <NCommander> Action carries
[00:56:24] <NCommander> Vote to end board meeting:
[00:56:29] <matt_> Aye!
[00:56:32] <juggs> NAH!
[00:56:32] * NCommander notes we didn't get to communication of board times
[00:56:35] <NCommander> Aye
[00:56:39] <matt_> oops.
[00:56:48] <juggs> ISSUE 6
[00:56:51] <Bytram> one last thing if I may?
[00:56:55] <NCommander> Bytram: go for it
[00:57:04] <NCommander> matt_: I think this can be handled as a staff meeting thing, and the board just photocopies it :-)
[00:57:09] * NCommander notes the issue is the same on boath
[00:57:12] <Bytram> in the future set *separate* dates for board meetings from the staff meetings? please!?
[00:57:18] <NCommander> Bytram: Alright
[00:57:21] <Bytram> thanks!
[00:57:25] * NCommander officially closes the board meeting
[00:57:31] * NCommander officially opens the staff meeting :-)
[00:57:32] <matt_> Bytram, agreed!
[00:57:35] <mrcoolbp> okiay thanh I gotta run off
[00:57:39] <NCommander> mrcoolbp: cya
[00:57:41] * TheMightyBuzzard waves
[00:57:41] <Bytram> mrcoolbp++ thanks!!!!!!!!
[00:57:41] <Bender> karma - mrcoolbp: 10
[00:57:47] * mrcoolbp waves to everyone
[00:57:48] <NCommander> mrcoolbp++ you're awesome
[00:57:48] <Bender> karma - mrcoolbp: 11
[00:57:52] <mrcoolbp> yay!
[00:58:14] <NCommander> Ok, so staff meeting time
[00:58:24] <juggs> We have an agenda?
[00:58:24] <NCommander> I recommend we just go person to person and let folks bring up what they need to
[00:58:25] <Bytram> NCommander: suggestion == how about a five minute recess? (i.e. "bio" break or smoke break or whatever)
[00:58:32] <NCommander> Bytram: you know, that's fair
[00:58:33] <paulej72> lol
[00:58:44] <audioguy> like that
[00:58:46] <NCommander> So, restatrt in five minutes?
[00:58:48] <paulej72> pee in a can :)
[00:58:51] <Bytram> suggeest we reconvene at 5 past the hour?
[00:59:08] <juggs> 2nd
[00:59:09] <audioguy> ^
[00:59:12] <LaminatorX> Works for me.
[00:59:19] <Bytram> k, cay. back in 5 or so.
[00:59:24] <Bytram> s/cay/cya/
[01:02:48] <matt_> and... minutes posted: http://wiki.soylentnews.org :-)
[01:03:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> all 120 or so of them
[01:03:29] -!- LaminatorX has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[01:03:32] <NCommander> holy crap
[01:03:34] <Bytram> matt_++ thank you!
[01:03:34] <Bender> karma - matt_: 3
[01:03:36] <NCommander> We were at it for two horus?
[01:03:37] <NCommander> O_O;
[01:03:43] <FunPika> Yep
[01:03:43] -!- rand has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
[01:03:53] <NCommander> I guess time flies when you're discussing business?
[01:04:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> a good argument scoffs at the temporal
[01:04:47] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard: indeed
[01:05:33] <paulej72> did you get a pizza NCommander
[01:06:02] * TheMightyBuzzard skipped food, drank coke and smoked cigarettes instead
[01:06:13] * juggs motions 1st point of agenda for staff meeting 1. Staff meetings should not tag on board meetings. No-one likes to be summoned to a meeting 2 hours early.
[01:07:15] <NCommander> paulej72: no ;.;
[01:07:20] * NCommander needs food at some point
[01:07:24] <NCommander> I think we're ready to go
[01:07:36] <NCommander> juggs: the point been made
[01:07:40] <NCommander> And will be honored
[01:08:17] <Bytram> juggs: already agreed. see: http://logs.sylnt.us
[01:08:28] -!- LaminatorX [LaminatorX!~470ab0b6@23-00-716-777.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #staff
[01:08:33] <juggs> who's chairing, who's minuting, what's on the agenda?
[01:08:58] * NCommander will chair
[01:09:02] <NCommander> volunteers for minuting?
[01:09:05] * LaminatorX will be back once he puts his kids to bed.
[01:09:09] <Bytram> I'd be happy to chair, but I don;tknow what's on the agenda
[01:09:15] <Bytram> :/
[01:09:26] <juggs> I don't think we have an agenda
[01:09:56] <Bytram> if I have an agenda to work from, I'll chair and minute.
[01:10:13] <NCommander> I don't think we have an agenda, I was planning to just go to everyone and ask what they wanted to discuss
[01:10:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, just minute.
[01:10:40] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: okay.
[01:10:47] <NCommander> So, lets go right down the list
[01:10:54] <NCommander> audioguy: floor is yours, anything to bring up?
[01:10:58] <audioguy> Agenda item: further discusssion of the pressing issue of stock, with emphasis on looking for specific solutions to contribute to the board
[01:11:13] * TheMightyBuzzard kicks audioguy
[01:11:25] <audioguy> Or has everyone had enough?
[01:11:29] <Bytram> $buritto audioguy
[01:11:59] * NCommander whacks audioguy
[01:12:04] * matt_ is ready for more =)
[01:12:05] <NCommander> Its a fair point though
[01:12:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> audioguy, is a meeting about it tomorrow. might as well save it until then.
[01:12:24] <audioguy> OK, I guess never mind that :-)
[01:12:24] * NCommander loves long discussions, was great in debate class <g>
[01:12:45] <paulej72> NCommander: you a master debater
[01:13:01] <NCommander> paulej72: also known as being stubborn
[01:13:05] <juggs> Agenda item: Team leads who are long time absent from position. It should be up to team leads to bring matters to staff meetings, that is not possible with absent team leads.
[01:13:22] <NCommander> juggs: will bring that up after going through everyone
[01:13:26] <audioguy> All I really have is some stuff related to possible virtual server changes, which are probably best left to a dev meeting, in the imnterest not not boring others to death
[01:13:27] <NCommander> audioguy: if nothing else, I'm moving on
[01:13:32] <NCommander> Ok
[01:13:35] <paulej72> I am the team leader for most of the groups
[01:13:39] <NCommander> Azrael: anything to bring up?
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[01:13:55] <juggs> paulej72, yep that makes sense.
[01:14:29] <audioguy> One possibbility - the situation with abuse of unicode.
[01:14:46] <audioguy> (cross teams )
[01:15:27] <Bytram> audioguy: good point; i've seen several (as in maybe a dozen or two) such posts... which were downmodded to oblivion =)
[01:15:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> audioguy, i think pj mostly handled that already. no more vertical overflow.
[01:15:54] * NCommander mulls
[01:15:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> it now takes up no more space than the same # of lines of ascii text would
[01:15:58] <NCommander> Maybe we shold go by team
[01:16:01] <NCommander> It will be more effective
[01:16:09] <NCommander> But lets bring up the UTF-8 stuff while we're here
[01:16:22] <Bytram> audioguy: fwiw, I tried to go 'outside' the comment box with &rtl; and &ltm; and variants and could not do so on dev.soylentnews.org
[01:16:32] <audioguy> So the plan is justy let them be modded down? I am a little woried about spammers posting ads in foeigjn languages and linking to them in emails, that sort of thing
[01:16:33] <NCommander> There's bene an uptick in downmods since the update landed
[01:16:36] * Bytram hasn't tried it on production
[01:17:08] <NCommander> audioguy: I'm open to ideas to preventing more abuse on this front. I don't want to loose the feature, especially since its long been a sticking point at the other site
[01:17:16] <audioguy> I assume javascript is already not permitted.
[01:17:40] <NCommander> audioguy: the javascript rule is that it has to fallback sanely
[01:17:43] <Bytram> audioguy: I tried it a few times, could not get it past the filters... TheMightyBuzzard -- what say you?
[01:17:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> audioguy, permitted... well you can put some in but it will just show as source.
[01:17:46] <paulej72> slash has a white list of tags
[01:18:08] <paulej72> <script> will get removed
[01:18:21] <Bytram> audioguy: are you talking about javascript in URLs?
[01:18:31] <audioguy> I don't want to lose it either, just trying to fimd out if we need to deal with this new world better. Also wondering: what if people enage in exteneded conversations in a foeign language, is this an 'English' site
[01:18:44] <audioguy> or in the text
[01:18:53] <Bytram> audioguy: e.g.: <a href="jaascript: blah blah blah">stuf<a/>
[01:19:14] <audioguy> What if jihadis start postimng stuff in rabic that is extremely imflammatory, etc.
[01:19:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, links are stripped of script tags
[01:19:20] <Bytram> well, you get the idea; I could not get that kind of stuff past the filters.
[01:19:22] <NCommander> audioguy: well, at some point, I want to see user-created nexuses/ ala subreddits
[01:19:27] <NCommander> Which should allow non-English
[01:20:03] <Bytram> audioguy: "The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way. "
[01:20:17] <Bytram> appears following *ever* story...
[01:20:18] <audioguy> Some of these characters can also be used to create misleading links htt alook ok but actually go somewhere else - are links forced to 7 bit?
[01:20:32] <NCommander> audioguy: moot point, we now have unicode URLs
[01:20:33] <Bytram> as for the stories themselves, i think the Ediors can handle that. =)
[01:20:35] <paulej72> audioguy: that one we have to fix
[01:20:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> audioguy, idn links are currently broken. nothing but ascii gets through.
[01:20:51] <Bytram> audioguy: ^^^
[01:21:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> so once we fix it that can become an issue but not yet
[01:21:04] <Bytram> idn == International Domain Names
[01:21:09] <audioguy> I think that is GOOD, ascii only. (for links)
[01:21:26] <NCommander> audioguy: except that its perfectly valid now to have non-ascii URLs -_-;
[01:21:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> s'actually not. i'd like the code to support IDNs
[01:21:34] <Bytram> atm, yes, but will be a problem down the line. Whole rat's nets of issues to watch for.
[01:21:34] <paulej72> I think we will have an indicator that a link contains urf
[01:21:39] * NCommander would love to see the ability to load the UI in other languages
[01:21:52] <audioguy> Few in use yet though.
[01:21:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> paulej72, not yet but it was proposed.
[01:22:15] <paulej72> TheMightyBuzzard: “will have”
[01:22:26] <Bytram> at this point, I just want to take a moment to publicly thank TheMightyBuzzard for all his hard work blugeoning slashcode into handling UTF-8 characters.
[01:22:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> stupid eyeballs, betraying me again
[01:22:41] <NCommander> audioguy: point taken
[01:23:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, all part of my master plan to hurry up meta-moderation
[01:23:08] <audioguy> HELL YES! Good going, of mighty bird!
[01:23:09] <Bytram> lOL!
[01:23:12] <NCommander> Right now, lets just keep an eye on it. The new CSS fixes shold prevent the worst of the abuse, and if it gets even worse, then we take more drastic steps
[01:23:13] <NCommander> k?
[01:23:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> sounds good
[01:23:26] <paulej72> NCommander: that would be really hard to do, but not impossible. You would need to pull out all of the text in the templates an put them into lookup templates
[01:23:41] <NCommander> paulej72: nah, just plug gettext into template tool
[01:23:49] <NCommander> Pretty sure thats already supported
[01:23:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> you admin types always have the banhammer if necessary
[01:23:51] * Bytram is reminded of the page-widening trolls of the other site... we'll deal with 'em as they come up; can't plan for *everyuthing*
[01:24:01] <NCommander> paulej72: its a future thing now
[01:24:12] <NCommander> My immediate priority is porting this hot mess to Apache 2
[01:24:20] <NCommander> Which is the last of the major shit to get me to sleep at nice
[01:24:21] <NCommander> *night
[01:24:35] <juggs> *nite
[01:24:50] <paulej72> *day
[01:24:55] <NCommander> .............
[01:24:59] <Bytram> NCommander: the benefit being... we can to a realse that is supported? (.e.g security fixes)
[01:24:59] <NCommander> you guys suck
[01:25:09] <NCommander> Bytram: bingo
[01:25:13] <NCommander> And more recent perl
[01:25:23] <NCommander> We're still stuck on 5.10, which I know caused pain in unicode world
[01:25:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> perl++
[01:25:31] <Bender> karma - perl: 1
[01:25:57] -!- LaminatorX [LaminatorX!~470ab0b6@23-00-716-777.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #staff
[01:25:57] <Bytram> elephant in the living room here: how are we going to regression test everything?
[01:26:24] <Bytram> or, do we let the community do the alpha testing when we roll it out?
[01:26:28] <NCommander> Bytram: usual matter, upgrade on a weekend and collect the bits as users step on landmines
[01:26:29] <audioguy> users, like evderyone else does. :-)
[01:26:31] <paulej72> on prod, let the users find the bugs
[01:27:03] <Bytram> ugh.
[01:27:08] <audioguy> I see great agreement on this. :-)
[01:27:15] <Bytram> LOL, but ugn. *UGH*!!!!!!!
[01:27:25] <NCommander> That's why we have a community, right?
[01:27:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, you're our resident bug hunter. you can break anything.
[01:27:47] <NCommander> Ok, so I think we've covered UTF-8, Apache2
[01:27:49] <Bytram> You have *no* idea; them bugs *swarm* me, I tells ya!
[01:28:01] <NCommander> I had some editoral stuff to bring up, but without a LaminatorX ...
[01:28:11] <prospectacle> what about test.soylentnews.org for enthusiastic breakers-of-things to break things in the soon-to-be-released, and report what they broke via submitting an article
[01:28:18] * LaminatorX has returned.
[01:28:25] <paulej72> yeah ugh, but I have tried to have people find bugs on dev, but no love. Even when testing on staff, there was till bugs that we did not find until deploy on prod
[01:28:27] <NCommander> prospectacle: that causes bad juju
[01:28:36] * NCommander remembers improved threading
[01:28:38] <NCommander> >.<;
[01:28:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, dev is generally usable for that. your account on live will likely let you log in there.
[01:28:53] <prospectacle> ok thanks
[01:28:58] <NCommander> at some point, we need to refresh dev's database
[01:29:04] <paulej72> unless it is newer than April
[01:29:06] <NCommander> Ok, so UTF-8, Apache2
[01:29:10] <NCommander> Anything else on the dev side?
[01:29:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep, i got a few
[01:29:19] <Bytram> prospectacle: heads up, though... it's hard to tell what has been merged into it at any given time.
[01:29:53] <prospectacle> Does the general public know about dev? I mean some weird people might like trying to find bugs.
[01:29:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> 14.10: any objections to it being mostly a minor and quick bug/issue release?
[01:30:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> clear off a hell of a lot of small ones and leave the biggies for 14.12?
[01:30:23] <paulej72> none here, and I have lots of bug fixes
[01:30:33] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard: I'd like to land the Apache2 upgrade if finished in 14.10
[01:30:36] <LaminatorX> An occasional dev shutout on site news wouldn't be a bad thing.
[01:30:41] <NCommander> prospectacle: its been brought up a few times
[01:30:41] <paulej72> or 14.!3
[01:30:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, i'd like to land m2 in there too but i see it running long like unicode did.
[01:31:26] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard: land it, but ship disabled
[01:31:28] <NCommander> Not a big issue
[01:31:31] <Bytram> NCommander: and I brought up some ideas on basic moderation with TheMightyBuzzard this AM, which might compound the situion
[01:31:44] <paulej72> NCommander: tackel Apache 2 if you want the rest or use will do the minor bug fixes
[01:31:48] <NCommander> Bytram: we need to compare notes, as I had thoughts for moderation that I've yet to get implemented
[01:31:54] <NCommander> but apache2 is a big sticker
[01:31:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> okay, item 2: that^^
[01:31:58] <Bytram> NCommander: works for me.
[01:32:14] * NCommander nods
[01:32:18] <NCommander> Anything else on dev?
[01:32:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> moderation changes in prep for m2. those would also fit well in with a light release.
[01:32:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> one more
[01:32:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> ddns for subscribers. pitched it to audioguy the other day and he was generally in favor.
[01:33:06] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: ddns?
[01:33:19] <NCommander> dyanmic dns?
[01:33:25] <Bytram> .topic Staff meeting in progress.
[01:33:25] juggler changed topic of #staff to: Staff meeting in progress.
[01:33:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> dynamic dns. like get a hostname of bytramlikescheese.ddns.soylentnews.org that's always yours.
[01:33:36] <paulej72> is there an open source ddns cleint
[01:33:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> several
[01:33:53] <LaminatorX> As in, my host.soylentnews.org?
[01:34:01] <audioguy> This is easy to do just with bind config files.
[01:34:04] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard++ interesting. *always* mine? You mean so long as I continue my subscription? =)
[01:34:04] <Bender> karma - themightybuzzard: 1
[01:34:15] <paulej72> I would use another domin for that stuff.
[01:34:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> LaminatorX, probably need to make it whatever.ddns.soylentnews.org to avoid confusion
[01:34:26] <audioguy> agreed ^^
[01:34:34] <audioguy> another domain.
[01:34:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> or our shortening domain
[01:34:44] * NCommander isn't 100% sure this is useful, but ok :-)
[01:34:46] <paulej72> no not the .us one
[01:34:48] <LaminatorX> Sylnt.us then
[01:34:56] <LaminatorX> Or not
[01:35:04] <paulej72> too many restrictions on that domain
[01:35:07] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: I like the idea of "whatever.ddns.soylentnews.org" as it will provide us free 'advertising' for the main site
[01:35:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, it's not especially. think of it as another gold star.
[01:35:19] <audioguy> We have a lot of domains already voted as 'winners'
[01:35:33] <NCommander> indeed
[01:35:41] <paulej72> Bytram: that could lead us to being blocked by different spam lists
[01:35:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> fair point
[01:35:52] <NCommander> Let's try and get togheter a need/want/wish list for the next two releases
[01:35:59] <NCommander> Put it on the wiki/brainstorm/etc.
[01:35:59] <audioguy> Subscribers only.
[01:36:05] <Bytram> paulej72: yeah, you're right. darn!
[01:36:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> s'it for me.
[01:36:38] <NCommander> k
[01:36:40] <audioguy> Aother is to allow people to use us as slave, those are always needed and trivial to do.
[01:36:42] <NCommander> I think that covers dev
[01:36:57] <paulej72> I have sysop stuff
[01:37:39] <audioguy> go
[01:37:45] <NCommander> Lets go to sysop
[01:37:45] <NCommander> paulej72:
[01:37:51] <paulej72> We need to get our documentation up to date. I have spent too much time trying to fix things recently and I had no idea where the shit was
[01:38:12] <audioguy> Ok: here is what I have in the works:
[01:38:24] <paulej72> I know I am guilty of not documenting, so I am trying to fix this up.
[01:38:33] * NCommander is semi-guilty on this
[01:38:43] <NCommander> BIggest thing I need to document is the backup mechanism
[01:38:57] <audioguy> I am just finishing up some dns stuff and have a backlog of notes. I want to finish the twiki install next, and move suitable stuff over to it. I think that will help
[01:39:19] <paulej72> audioguy: whcih system did you install twiki on
[01:39:35] <audioguy> Thsi will give us a place to put slightly mnore sensitive stuff than the public wiki
[01:39:56] <audioguy> It isn't yet, really, I want ot pom staff ,achjine boron.
[01:40:01] <audioguy> want it on
[01:40:13] <audioguy> (this is limited to staff)
[01:40:15] <paulej72> ok
[01:40:51] <paulej72> I think we should go ahead with the plan to move stuff off of bery and move ti to boron and carbon as appropriate.
[01:41:07] <audioguy> I will send a note to either stafflist or admin list with more details when the time comes
[01:41:25] <paulej72> nitrogen could be moved to as well, but I was think of using that as a backup irc server.
[01:42:00] <NCommander> I'll be happy retiring bery
[01:42:07] <audioguy> re that move - I have been wanting to chamge main mail comfig for a while, this is a golden opportunity to just move that to the existing mail server on boron. This is all low usage staff mail
[01:42:09] <NCommander> That machine has long been the odd man out
[01:42:30] <NCommander> audioguy: do wait a bit before doing that
[01:42:40] * NCommander is going to upgrade boron to 14.04 this week
[01:42:44] <Bytram> paulej72: is there some kimd of report which gives system 'stats' on each of our servers? CPU Usage, RAM Usage, Swap, etc.? Would be nice to get a daily report.
[01:42:48] <audioguy> I don't do such things without a preannounce and clear plan.
[01:42:55] <NCommander> audioguy: cool :-)
[01:43:05] <NCommander> Bytram: there was icinga
[01:43:09] <NCommander> We should probably resurrect that
[01:43:10] <audioguy> unlike SOME around here. :-)
[01:43:22] <paulej72> NCommander: when I mentioned to xlefay about setting up a backup irc on nitrogen he mention that we should move that server to the London DC.
[01:44:03] <paulej72> icina is still there, I just cant figure out how to set it up.
[01:44:15] <Bytram> NCommander: not just *was*, still is: https://sentinel.soylentnews.org
[01:44:50] <NCommander> oh, it got fixed
[01:44:50] <paulej72> lright now it give an error on carbon, because I switch the default webserver to nginx.
[01:44:53] <NCommander> sentinel poofed for awhile
[01:45:12] <Bytram> NCommander: yup, but it was un-poofed.
[01:45:24] <paulej72> plus the new severs are not bein monitored
[01:45:34] <NCommander> ugh
[01:45:48] <NCommander> FIxing that last bit would be relatively easy
[01:46:53] <audioguy> Do we NEED icinga? Has it EVER solved a problem or found one for us that was not already knoen?
[01:47:02] <audioguy> known
[01:47:10] <Bytram> From what I can tell, icinga is more about watching/checking for things running or not; does not give system 'loads'.
[01:47:18] <NCommander> adding loads won't be hard
[01:47:25] <NCommander> YOu can report anything via shell scripts and such
[01:47:26] <juggs> mrtg
[01:47:33] <NCommander> If someone wants to go through and setup nagios or mrtg though
[01:47:35] <NCommander> be my guest
[01:47:45] <audioguy> When something stops running we get pretty fast feedback from users.
[01:47:58] <paulej72> igcina was xlefay’s baby
[01:48:14] <juggs> NCommander, why are you not recommending Landscape?
[01:48:19] <juggs> ;)
[01:48:36] <audioguy> Landscape was running too
[01:48:41] <Bytram> okay, I forgot... what was it we were discussing?
[01:48:44] <audioguy> how many do we need?
[01:48:52] <juggs> quite
[01:49:21] <paulej72> consoldating servers and monitoring
[01:49:23] <NCommander> juggs: because I'm going to be leaving my employeer soon, and unliekly to get it for free :-P
[01:49:42] <juggs> rsyslog, snmp trap it - it doesn't matter. Make a fucking decision how you are going to monitor load and do it.
[01:49:57] <juggs> And set alerts
[01:50:07] <NCommander> Right, so moving onto consoldating stuff
[01:50:11] <audioguy> How about real sysadmins actually checking logs
[01:50:17] <NCommander> or not
[01:50:21] <Bytram> ummm, what was decided on documenting the systems?
[01:50:35] * NCommander coughs
[01:50:40] <NCommander> Sorry, I got distracted
[01:50:44] * Bytram offers another lozenge
[01:50:44] <NCommander> On the documentation front
[01:50:46] <paulej72> NCommander: needs to bust out his fast keyboard
[01:51:02] <NCommander> I have: document backup systems (NCommander), document other stuff (paul)
[01:51:09] <NCommander> probably need to be more specific on identifying doc gaps
[01:51:12] <Bytram> got it. thank
[01:51:41] <Bytram> paulej72: whenever you find an area lacking docs, can you just add it to some central place, like on the wiki?
[01:51:48] <audioguy> backup system a good start
[01:52:05] <paulej72> we should copy key config files for all of our services and put them in twiki
[01:52:25] <audioguy> Yes, I will start doig that once I have it set up.
[01:52:35] <Bytram> not the documention itself, but at least start a list of areas which are lacking.
[01:52:42] <Bytram> great!
[01:52:44] <paulej72> Bytram: that would almost be as much work as fixing the docs
[01:53:05] <audioguy> I believe some documentaion belogs in the connfig files, so it is handy when needed.
[01:53:14] <audioguy> config files
[01:53:59] <NCommander> What is needed is a list of where we got coverage gaps
[01:54:00] <Bytram> I don't much care *where*, but if there were one place where you could note when you stumble on an area that is deficient, it can (eventually) get tackled
[01:54:13] <paulej72> Plus we need to make sure all of our system have the same settings where possible and proper fallbacks. Lithium was not setup with both ldap and kerberos servers
[01:54:29] <Bytram> NCommander: exactly. Rather than a massive search, just build up a list over time as we stumble over the gaps.
[01:54:39] <audioguy> The main wiki for now, until I get twiki fully up. (few days, finishing some stuff on dns)
[01:55:46] <NCommander> anyone volunteering to take that list?
[01:55:48] * NCommander sees himself somewhat swamped for the rest of the week
[01:55:52] <NCommander> *take to compiling
[01:56:35] <paulej72> I have been working through the sysamin wiki pages so I can put down what is missing.
[01:56:38] <audioguy> I am doing this as I move through various things, but we all see different views of the system as we work on different things.
[01:56:53] <audioguy> MAke a page for 'missing docs' there
[01:56:54] <Bytram> NCommander: I'd say just grow it organically. Just note it when you find it... maybe toss in a sentinel string "HERE NEED BE DOCUMENTATION" and move on.
[01:56:55] <NCommander> Alright
[01:57:05] <NCommander> ONe last note
[01:57:14] <NCommander> Any object if I upgrade boron to 14.04?
[01:57:15] -!- LaminatorX_ [LaminatorX_!~470ab0b6@23-00-716-777.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #staff
[01:57:21] * NCommander is likely going to do it tongiht
[01:57:50] <Bytram> what's on it ? and what depends on what it is running? and what does boron depend on, too?
[01:57:51] <paulej72> yes, I want the backup docs wirten first.
[01:58:05] <audioguy> is the other dns machine fully finctional? We need at least one functional dns for the li domain to work.
[01:58:15] -!- LaminatorX has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[01:58:34] <audioguy> we all log in on boron. Just don't mess that one up. :-)
[01:58:35] LaminatorX_ is now known as LamnatorX
[01:58:37] <NCommander> audioguy: helium is fully operational again
[01:58:43] <NCommander> so LDAP/DNS is fine
[01:58:48] <NCommander> paulej72: ask and you shall receive
[01:59:00] <audioguy> main concern is logioms then, I think
[01:59:01] <paulej72> SystemAdministration/Backups
[01:59:04] <audioguy> logins
[01:59:29] <NCommander> audioguy: you can get in via linode console worst case scenario, and I can setup a different box as a login one if needed
[01:59:48] <audioguy> I don't have access to linode console.
[02:00:10] <paulej72> javascript adversion
[02:00:19] -!- FunPika has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[02:00:24] <audioguy> no problem is done quickly at any rate.
[02:00:24] <NCommander> paulej72: you can get into it via SSH
[02:00:33] <NCommander> ANyway
[02:00:39] <NCommander> anything else on sysops?
[02:00:40] <audioguy> I was wondering about that
[02:00:44] <paulej72> NCommander: that is thee thing, the password files may not be accessble to log in as root
[02:01:02] <NCommander> THat's why I keep a local backup of it
[02:01:18] <paulej72> we should have them emailed to the sysop staff.
[02:01:32] <NCommander> probably safer just to put it on t-wiki
[02:01:36] <Bytram> email == postcard
[02:01:42] <audioguy> yes, not emailed!
[02:02:00] <audioguy> put them in boron root where we can grab over secure ssh
[02:02:04] <paulej72> not if we loose twiki and ssh on boron at the same time
[02:02:23] <NCommander> audioguy: they're on helium in roots home folder which all sysops can get
[02:02:24] <audioguy> We shouldnot put passwords on twiki.
[02:02:25] <paulej72> if twiki is on boron that is a possibility
[02:02:50] <paulej72> NCommander: that is if boron is not being upgraded at the time
[02:03:09] <audioguy> Then we all need to just grab a copy from helium now.
[02:03:16] <paulej72> yes
[02:03:40] <NCommander> paulej72: I'm not upgrading it this instant
[02:03:45] <NCommander> If I do it tonight, it will be around midnight AKDT
[02:04:00] <audioguy> you know we are in staff, not a non public place right now. :-)
[02:04:13] <audioguy> just thought I wouod point that out. :-)
[02:04:21] <paulej72> yes I know, but in this case with boron down our only access to the other servers is via lish.
[02:04:29] * NCommander notes that nothing here is private; we've got most of the configuration on the wiki already
[02:04:48] <NCommander> paulej72: boron shoul donly be down during the reboot
[02:04:48] <paulej72> Should we set up as sceconday ssh entrance on carbon?
[02:04:57] <NCommander> I'll set that up
[02:04:57] <audioguy> yes, but eay to forget, in the heat of things - it has happened before.
[02:05:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, you know you just doomed it, yes?
[02:05:09] <NCommander> I"ll tempt enable public login on carbon during the upgrade
[02:05:18] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard: yup :-)
[02:05:36] <paulej72> hydrogen was susposed to be down only a few minutes
[02:07:12] <NCommander> paulej72: technically speaking, its still up, just varnish is stopped :-P
[02:07:30] <paulej72> NCommander: the other issue that we need to look into is reducing gluster memeory usage
[02:07:44] <paulej72> I meant helium :)
[02:07:46] <NCommander> that too
[02:08:03] <NCommander> paulej72: helium was up, it just had some booting issues yours truly caused originally
[02:08:52] <paulej72> do we have db riplication working yet?
[02:09:10] <NCommander> yeah
[02:09:20] <NCommander> But I don't hae it setup a second reader on slash yet
[02:09:28] * NCommander is getting to the point he has to go
[02:09:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> paulej72, move all of the logs out of the glustered area
[02:09:35] <NCommander> Let's try and wrap this up quickly
[02:09:51] <paulej72> I have nothing else pressing
[02:10:15] * NCommander nods
[02:10:17] <NCommander> Editoral team?
[02:10:24] * TheMightyBuzzard is consulting over IM
[02:10:33] * NCommander had something to bring up, but its not urgent, and can take it to email
[02:10:38] -!- mechanicjay [mechanicjay!~jhowe@Soylent/Staff/Sysop/mechanicjay] has joined #staff
[02:10:38] -!- mode/#staff [+v mechanicjay] by juggler
[02:10:42] <audioguy> they are probably all asleep by now :-)
[02:10:45] <LamnatorX> One moment, let me switch to a proper keyboard.
[02:10:48] -!- LamnatorX has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[02:11:30] -!- LaminatorX [LaminatorX!~470ab0b6@Soylent/Staff/Editor/LaminatorX] has joined #staff
[02:11:30] -!- mode/#staff [+v LaminatorX] by juggler
[02:11:42] <LaminatorX> Alright, ready.
[02:11:45] * NCommander didn't intend this to be a four hour long slosh
[02:11:47] <NCommander> Seriously sorry guys
[02:12:51] <NCommander> LaminatorX: your floor
[02:13:06] <LaminatorX> I'm happy with where we are staffwise. While each batch of new Editors suffers 50% attrition, we've got enough keepers now to handle two of us on leave simultaneously without straining the rest unduly.
[02:13:10] -!- Ethanol-fueled [Ethanol-fueled!~62b0c2de@cp88-216-234-862.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #staff
[02:13:14] <paulej72> NCommander: just a quick fyi on the ipv4 backend links between boron and hydrogen/fluorine the spped is about half of the hydrogen to fluorine link
[02:13:58] <paulej72> LaminatorX: is there any that need their perms removed yet?
[02:14:43] <NCommander> paulej72: ugh
[02:14:56] <NCommander> LaminatorX: that's good to hear
[02:15:01] * NCommander fuck it, brins up his point
[02:15:04] <LaminatorX> We could probably do that for some of the early ones who've been idle for months. Let's wait a smidge longer though, I think 6 months idle is a nice round number, and we're not quite there yet.
[02:15:15] <NCommander> eh, no
[02:15:20] * NCommander is going to rathole us for 30 minutes
[02:15:32] <NCommander> LaminatorX: I removed girlwhoisplugged out awhile ago
[02:15:41] <NCommander> Not sure who else might need permission removal
[02:16:34] <LaminatorX> Dopefish and Cactus haven't posted in months as well. I don't have a problem with GWWPO being removed, though would've like to have been consulted.
[02:17:11] <paulej72> I thought he raged-quit or something
[02:17:19] <NCommander> LaminatorX: I did that quite a long time ago, I was just menthoning it now
[02:17:53] <paulej72> cant remember the specifics
[02:17:57] <LaminatorX> Gotcha. No ragequits from Editors, it seems. We seem to die with a whimper.
[02:18:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> wait till you see a sysadmin ragequit. can be a thing of horror and awe.
[02:19:03] <Ethanol-fueled> WHy was GirlWhoWasPluggedOut removed?
[02:19:09] <audioguy> unlikely with present crew.
[02:19:12] <LaminatorX> GungnirSniper rounds out the missing list.
[02:19:14] <paulej72> that is why you need to pet your sysadmins from time to time
[02:19:20] <Ethanol-fueled> Not that I care, I'm just kinda chuckling and curious.
[02:19:47] <NCommander> Ethanol-fueled: disappeared
[02:19:48] <paulej72> Ethanol-fueled: MIA for too long
[02:19:52] <LaminatorX> Zizban hadn't posted in a few weeks, but may just be in a back-to-school mode.
[02:19:56] <Ethanol-fueled> Flaked out, eh? Bummer.
[02:20:21] <audioguy> privileges are easily restored
[02:20:27] <Ethanol-fueled> School is a bitch, and the only reason why I'm not offering to help more (under a less-offensive alias, of course). Sorry guys.
[02:20:28] <paulej72> Zizban did say he would be irregular for a while
[02:20:51] <LaminatorX> I' not kidding about 50% attrition, this is less fun than it seems from the outside.
[02:20:52] * NCommander hates to do this, but I kinda need to bug out
[02:20:54] <Bytram> NCommander: I'm assuming that this is separate and distinct from the list of editors that appears at the bottom of a page and which shows what each editor was last working on?
[02:20:58] <NCommander> Can someone else take over for me?
[02:21:12] <NCommander> Bytram: that list is anyone whoe ver held admin privs, the stats table for them isn't cleared out
[02:21:14] <LaminatorX> It is that list, but that list is also historical.
[02:21:30] <LaminatorX> you'll note Barrabas is still on that list.
[02:21:37] <paulej72> I need to fix that. It bugs me
[02:21:47] * NCommander notes I think aside from IRC, this is the last thing to cover so I cna probably stick for 10 more mintues
[02:21:47] <Bytram> yup, and several others... hence my mentioning it.
[02:21:50] <juggs> Is this still the staff meeting? are we going alphabetically or by section? I dozed off I think
[02:21:53] <NCommander> paulej72: its a table somewhere in the DB
[02:21:56] <NCommander> juggs: staff meeting
[02:22:03] <NCommander> We need a better way to having this in the future
[02:22:05] <juggs> fuck me
[02:22:12] <paulej72> I nominate Bytram as our new meeting chair
[02:22:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> seconded
[02:22:43] <audioguy> unless there are other issues in editorial maybe we should just end?
[02:22:45] <Bytram> I'd be willing, but my schedule is a bit, varied.
[02:22:58] <paulej72> all those opposed
[02:23:00] <Bytram> umm, QA/test?
[02:23:04] <LaminatorX> We are quite grateful for working UTF-8.
[02:23:21] <LaminatorX> I have nothing pressing. Status report is: good.
[02:23:22] <paulej72> Bytram: just for the rest of this meeting
[02:23:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> awe, i was feelin a perfectly good coup
[02:23:53] <Bytram> ok, I *had* volunteered at the outset, IIRC =)
[02:24:23] <juggs> Did irc get a look in... or was that covered by paulej72 ?
[02:24:43] <paulej72> No we have not discussed that
[02:25:01] <Bytram> and at some point I'd like to bring up "QA and Test"
[02:25:21] <LaminatorX> Any other questions for Editorial, or shal I yield?
[02:25:39] <paulej72> none
[02:26:12] <Bytram> LaminatorX: do you have any issues/suggestions with the story submission/edin process?
[02:26:20] <Bytram> s/edin/edit/
[02:27:26] <LaminatorX> If I were to make a wishlist, a larger edit-box with larger type would be nice.
[02:27:44] <paulej72> LaminatorX: can do.
[02:28:08] <audioguy> We need an 'old guy' skin that has larger type. :-)
[02:28:14] <Bytram> LaminatorX: I noticed there is a 'drag' handle at the lower right-hand corner of the edit box.
[02:28:19] <paulej72> can do as well
[02:28:35] <Bytram> and a couple of "Ctrl-+" increases the font size (at least with FireFox)
[02:28:43] <paulej72> Bytram: that is only on some borwosers
[02:28:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> we need a oldschool skin too where blockquotes are prepended by a > and unstyled
[02:28:52] <audioguy> yeah, I do that
[02:29:04] <paulej72> TheMightyBuzzard: that is the vt100 theme
[02:29:05] <audioguy> works on opera too
[02:29:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> paulej72, yep yep
[02:29:27] <LaminatorX> The type on the page overall is fine, the edit box is just smaller. It never occurred to me to enlarge the whole page.
[02:29:44] <Bytram> hth
[02:30:27] <LaminatorX> As far as flaggin spam submissions for admins to block, it would be nice to move them into a different queue like the way the Hold function works.
[02:30:27] <paulej72> LaminatorX: I had that on my peronal todo list to fix at some point. Going to make a lot of boxes in the admin section larger and easir to edit in.
[02:30:48] <audioguy> bump the font size in css on the form, I often do that.
[02:31:16] <juggs> NCommander, I see no meeting, it is out of control. /me motions to exclude NCommander from the chair in future.
[02:31:38] * NCommander is barely here at the moment
[02:31:47] <NCommander> juggs: I passed chair off awhile ago
[02:31:56] <juggs> uch
[02:32:04] <LaminatorX> I'm happy to have an interface discussion with devs outside of the global staff meeting.
[02:32:04] <audioguy> Blame Bytram :-)
[02:32:27] * Bytram accepts blame
[02:32:55] <Bytram> Is that it for Editorial?
[02:32:55] <audioguy> We should just end.
[02:33:08] <Bytram> QA/Test
[02:33:12] <audioguy> 3 hours 32 minutes
[02:33:21] <LaminatorX> Editorial has nothing else to bring-up. (Feel free to email me with your kettle-of-fish, NCommander.)
[02:33:48] <Bytram> Testing of UTF-8 was a challenge...
[02:34:19] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: kept finding areas in the code which were not amenable to allowing UTF-8 chars through correctly, so it was a moving target.
[02:34:39] <Bytram> He did a *great* job of keeping me in the loop, so to speak.
[02:34:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> easy with one dev n one qa
[02:35:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> gets complicated from there
[02:35:08] <Bytram> I've hit at in a number of nefarious ways, but don't know how much of the code actually got covered.
[02:35:26] <Bytram> so, far, though. it *seems* to be holding up well.
[02:35:58] * Bytram should really write up a doc covering unicode, UTF-8, IDN, RFCs, etc.
[02:36:02] <paulej72> not enough as we found bugs after deploy, but utf8 is a very large test sruface
[02:36:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> fat woman vs midget big, yep
[02:36:48] <paulej72> fat woman vs a filed mouse
[02:37:08] <Bytram> if I had a specification which listed exactly what was to be changed from a user's perspective, as well as what was going to/from the DB, then I could have provided better coverage... still given from what we started with, I'd say we got a bunch of nasties out of the way before deploy.
[02:37:48] <Bytram> Am mentioning this primarily to put a stae in the ground for futre reference.
[02:37:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> prolly a good idea.
[02:38:00] <paulej72> Bytram: part of the issue here is we are still learing where all of the code is located in slash
[02:38:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> true dat
[02:38:13] <Bytram> *exactly*
[02:38:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> and then promptly forgetting half of what we learned.
[02:38:38] <LaminatorX> Is there documentation of the overall archetechture going on as part of the effort?
[02:38:40] <Bytram> now that we have some 'institutional' knowledge, it would be good to record it (maybe as some kind of post-mortem).
[02:38:55] <paulej72> we don’t know what the whole scope od a chenge is until we aply it and see where it breaks
[02:39:19] <Bytram> paulej72++ bingo
[02:39:19] <Bender> karma - paulej72: 10
[02:39:40] * TheMightyBuzzard makes notes
[02:39:59] <Bytram> but, as we find new edges and corners while developing, it woud be helpful if someone could make a note so the rest of us don't have to skin our knuckles, too.
[02:40:15] <paulej72> I am trying to put that knowledge inot the git commits
[02:40:16] <Bytram> one other thing
[02:40:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> damned fine idea.
[02:40:44] <Bytram> the site experienced some, instability, for a few days...
[02:41:03] <Bytram> paulej72++ you did a phenomenal job getting things back up and running.
[02:41:03] <Bender> karma - paulej72: 11
[02:41:13] <paulej72> many out of band deploys right now
[02:41:24] * Bytram has no idea how but suspects a secret stash of dilithium crystals
[02:41:51] <Bytram> that's my report.
[02:42:04] <paulej72> nah I just stopped th server that was running shitty.
[02:42:10] -!- NCommander has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[02:42:14] <Bytram> and, if nobody else has anything, I make a motion to adjourn
[02:42:38] <LaminatorX> 2nded
[02:42:42] <paulej72> Bad thing is I have not been able to figure out why it is acting shitty.
[02:42:45] <paulej72> Does juggs have IRC stuff
[02:43:08] <paulej72> or did sleep get to him first
[02:43:17] <Bytram> actually, that just reminded me.
[02:43:22] <matt_> [22:36] * juggs fades out of existence for now
[02:43:27] <matt_> ^from #soylent
[02:43:38] <Bytram> the LOGIN msg of the day lsits a bunch of folks running IRC. are they still all active?
[02:43:59] <Bytram> here it comes...
[02:44:00] <Bytram> * - ==============================================================
[02:44:01] <Bytram> * - # The IRC staff: #
[02:44:01] <Bytram> * - # #
[02:44:01] <Bytram> * - # * xlefay - Team leader #
[02:44:01] <Bytram> * - # * Landon - Member #
[02:44:04] <Bytram> * - # * MrBluze - Member #
[02:44:06] <Bytram> * - # * Kobach - Member #
[02:44:08] <Bytram> * - # * FunPika - Member #
[02:44:08] <paulej72> no, but I had other thing on my todo lit to fix that
[02:44:10] <Bytram> * - # #
[02:44:12] <Bytram> * - ==============================================================
[02:44:14] <Bytram> * - # If you require any assistance, please /join #help #
[02:44:16] <Bytram> * - ==============================================================
[02:44:24] <Bytram> paulej72: great! thanks a bunch!
[02:44:43] <LaminatorX> I believe MrBluze departed after the name vote.
[02:44:54] <Bytram> nod nod
[02:45:19] * Bytram needs to be going
[02:45:35] <Ethanol-fueled> MrBluze left as well, eh?
[02:45:45] <Bytram> Does IRC have a report?
[02:45:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> kobach split too, no?
[02:46:06] <paulej72> yes
[02:46:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> basically down to landon and... well really just landon on that list.
[02:46:45] <LaminatorX> FunPika was here earlier.
[02:46:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya? sweet
[02:46:58] <Ethanol-fueled> xlefay is lurking.
[02:47:12] <Bytram> I may be mistaken, but I think xlefay is in more of an 'inactive' state than a 'quit' state.
[02:47:36] <paulej72> but he could show up at any time and be more active.
[02:47:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> bout my understanding too
[02:48:38] <mechanicjay> I miss my buddy xlefay
[02:48:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> should probably reorganize that list to reflect the current situation though. even if nobody ever reads the motd.
[02:49:00] <Bytram> a quick check suggests his last msg on IRC was about 9 days ago... " Just can't be as active on IRC as I used to be, got actual stuff to do nowadays :("
[02:49:29] <Bytram> not certain, but that's the best I can tell on short notice using crutchy's ~last command on #Soylent
[02:49:34] <paulej72> I think the only thing that Juggs wanted to bring up is staff abuing their IRC privs by kicking people and oping bots that should not be
[02:49:39] <LaminatorX> I imagine that will be most of us at one point or another.
[02:49:47] <Ethanol-fueled> Bytram, what set kobach off?
[02:50:02] <Bytram> no idea at all.
[02:50:24] <Bytram> I may have confused him with MrBluze
[02:50:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> i only ever .kick the real bastards. only that TheMightyBuzzard guy so far.
[02:50:45] <Bytram> Ok, if there's nothing else in re: IRC... do I hear a motion to adjourn?
[02:51:01] <LaminatorX> Said motion is cuttently on the table.
[02:51:10] <paulej72> kobach got upset when we called him out on abusing his irc privs
[02:51:10] <Bytram> vote
[02:51:11] <LaminatorX> s/tt/rr
[02:51:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> move it out the way then to make room for the pizza
[02:51:18] <audioguy> yeah
[02:51:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> aye
[02:51:33] <Bytram> aye
[02:51:38] <LaminatorX> eye
[02:51:45] <matt_> i
[02:51:55] <paulej72> I
[02:52:22] <Bytram> from the chair's perspective, the motion is carried and I hereby call this staff meeting adjourned.
[02:52:27] * Bytram raps imaginary gavel
[02:52:39] <LaminatorX> ~moo
[02:52:42] <matt_> Bytram, do you wish to record the minutes on the wiki?
[02:52:50] <LaminatorX> !moo
[02:53:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> 👁
[02:53:53] <Bytram> I'm willing to do so, but you did the board meeting one so quickly, I suspect you have a tool of some sort to do it. my efforts would be manually crafted. Would you be so kind? If not, I'll get them in the am.
[02:54:32] <paulej72> copy paste from logs.sylnt.us
[02:54:40] <mechanicjay> is #staff logged? As I had stuff come up tonight unexpectedly and missed the first 3 hours
[02:54:42] <matt_> Bytram, actually, I just did it manually, so i will leave it to you.
[02:54:46] <matt_> mechanicjay, it is.
[02:55:05] <matt_> http://logs.sylnt.us
[02:55:33] <paulej72> http://logs.sylnt.us
[02:55:53] <paulej72> starts at 23:00
[02:56:03] <mechanicjay> ty matt_, paulej72 -- gonna get to reading....
[02:56:37] -!- Ethanol-fueled [Ethanol-fueled!~62b0c2de@cp88-216-234-862.sd.sd.cox.net] has parted #staff
[02:57:15] * Bytram is too knackered at this point to attempt... would *not* look good. will do in am.
[02:57:33] <paulej72> it will keep
[02:58:33] <Bytram> paulej72: thanks, and thanks for everything!
[02:58:43] <paulej72> same to you.
[02:58:54] Bytram is now known as Bytram|away
[02:59:04] * Bytram|away prepares to step away form the keyboard
[02:59:12] <Bytram|away> g'night all! thank-you!!!!
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[03:04:32] <matt_> .topic everyone that doesn't have a voice or operator status in this channel: your messages will be forwarded to the channel ops (if there are none, feel free to PM an active user in the channel). | This channel is logged: http://logs.sylnt.us
[03:04:32] juggler changed topic of #staff to: everyone that doesn't have a voice or operator status in this channel: your messages will be forwarded to the channel ops (if there are none, feel free to PM an active user in the channel). | This channel is logged: http://logs.sylnt.us
[03:07:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> matt_, need to set +m for that to be true
[03:07:47] <matt_> oops. :) how do i do that (and should i do that?)
[03:08:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> /mode #staff +m i think
[03:08:25] -!- mode/#staff [+m #staff] by matt_
[03:08:39] <matt_> seemed to work, i think.
[03:08:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> probably get turned off but at least it's consistent with the topic
[03:09:15] <matt_> that was the topic when i got here, so i figured it would be ok ;)
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[03:41:56] <mechanicjay> okay, that was epic
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[04:23:17] <mrcoolbp> mechanicjay: "that was epic" lol
[04:23:22] <mrcoolbp> in a good way?
[07:00:08] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, ok, I'm starting to write up stock stuff
[07:00:20] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, http://wiki.soylentnews.org - how's this sound for a start?
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[13:53:46] <Bytram> Staff meeting log has been posted to the Wiki...
[13:53:50] <Bytram> http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[13:54:06] <Bytram> updated ^^^ to point to: http://wiki.soylentnews.org
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[13:56:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> good deal.
[13:58:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> hrm... need more coffee
[14:08:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++
[14:53:21] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: I'm fixing typos and wording on that page now
[14:54:25] <mrcoolbp> coffee++, oh wait, I should get that first
[14:55:46] <Bytram> mrcoolbp: umm, what page?
[14:56:25] <mrcoolbp> <+NCommander> mrcoolbp, http://wiki.soylentnews.org - how's this sound for a start?
[14:56:47] <mrcoolbp> Bytram:
[14:56:53] <mrcoolbp> this needs rewording "the more stock you own, the larger percentage of the company you own, as well a louder influence with specific actions stockholders can take."
[14:57:12] <mrcoolbp> (refresh that page, I just fixed a typp
[14:57:25] <Bytram> nod nod
[14:59:24] <paulej72> just made a sight edit
[15:31:11] Bytram is now known as Bytram|afk
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[18:09:32] <mechanicjay> Is anyone deploying something? or are the 503's legit?
[18:10:44] <audioguy> where are you seeimng these?
[18:10:58] <mechanicjay> every where!
[18:11:05] <mechanicjay> linode shows both port 80 nodes down
[18:11:20] <mechanicjay> checking flourine
[18:11:58] <audioguy> I just added mysql and php5-fmp to the startup sequence on carbon, all processes look normal on carbon.
[18:12:43] <mechanicjay> holy load averager
[18:12:51] <mechanicjay> +36 on flourine
[18:12:55] <audioguy> I Have done nothing else today.
[18:13:12] <mechanicjay> glusterfs is chewing up 2+ cores
[18:13:19] <audioguy> crap
[18:13:25] <mechanicjay> it's all in waittime
[18:13:38] <audioguy> same as before.
[18:13:39] <mechanicjay> NCommander documented how to beat gluster into submission -- going to try it
[18:13:47] <audioguy> go for it
[18:15:34] <mechanicjay> fuck, I don't remember where the local apache is
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[18:16:06] <audioguy> in /srv I think
[18:16:07] <mechanicjay> nm found it
[18:16:12] <mechanicjay> yeah, that's whats hung
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[23:05:43] <Bytram> anyone here for the staff meeting?
[23:05:48] <Bytram> NCommander: ^^
[23:05:53] <Bytram> mrcoolbp: ^^
[23:05:53] <Bytram> matt_: ^^
[23:05:54] <matt_> i'm here.
[23:05:59] <Bytram> matt_: i!
[23:06:02] <mrcoolbp> I'm here
[23:06:04] * NCommander is here
[23:06:04] <Bytram> matt_: hi!
[23:06:08] <mrcoolbp> yay
[23:06:12] * NCommander just demolished a pizza nd is feeling fat
[23:06:17] <Bytram> hi everyone!
[23:06:36] <Bytram> looks like we have quorum? All present and accounted for.
[23:06:37] <mrcoolbp> matt_ saw your email a few minutes ago
[23:06:46] <matt_> mrcoolbp, kewl!
[23:07:01] * Bytram checks email
[23:07:17] <mrcoolbp> For those that didn't, it suggested apointing a special memeber of the board that could veto the board's decision on behalf of the community
[23:07:22] <mrcoolbp> however
[23:07:37] <mrcoolbp> while that's a really cool idea and I think we should look into it
[23:07:54] <mrcoolbp> it doesn't solve the issue of "permanent" control by stockholders
[23:08:06] <mrcoolbp> that being said, I'd really like to get this thing settled ASAP
[23:08:40] <matt_> mrcoolbp, it's true, the idea there was to have an elected community advocate, and unelected stockholders...
[23:08:46] <Bytram> mrcoolbp: thanks for the summary!
[23:08:49] <mrcoolbp> no prob
[23:09:11] <matt_> Bytram, to expand on mrcoolbp's summary:
[23:09:16] <Bytram> so, would someone like to pose the agenda for tonight's meeting?
[23:09:26] <Bytram> matt_: oops, go ahead
[23:10:02] <Bytram> .op
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[23:10:03] Bytram changed topic of #staff to: Board meeting currently in progress
[23:10:09] <matt_> I suggested that we could do the following 3 things at the same time to address the board-accountability issue brought up yesterday:
[23:10:20] <matt_> 1. increase the size of the board from 3 members to 5 members.
[23:10:35] <matt_> 2. appoint a "Community Advocate" who could veto board actions on behalf of the community.
[23:10:57] <matt_> 3. issue stock to NC and myself, as previously proposed, to serve as a check on the the board and community advocate.
[23:11:45] <matt_> basically, that's it in a nutshell.
[23:12:12] <Bytram> matt_: thanks for that.
[23:12:19] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: honestly, the more we discuss it, the closer I'm leaning to approving the issuance of stock
[23:12:22] <Bytram> questions/discussion?
[23:12:37] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: would you enumerate you concerns with it specifically for us one more time?
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[23:13:09] <mrcoolbp> .voice bryan
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[23:13:11] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, indeed
[23:13:15] <mrcoolbp> thanks
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[23:14:59] * mrcoolbp hopes NCommander didn't silently DC again
[23:15:07] <NCommander> My main concern is we're getting a de facto permanent overseer for the board, who has nothing to control or restrain them; since the board can not force a buyback, it is possible that any overseer is there indefinitely. Right now, we might be fine, but there is the possibility that I could go mad and then the future board is stuck w/ me forever
[23:15:57] <mrcoolbp> sounds about right
[23:15:59] <mrcoolbp> okay
[23:16:01] <NCommander> This is further compounded by the fact that both matt_ and myself are on the board as of right now, destablizing the board
[23:16:10] <NCommander> Since in effect we weild more power than the rest
[23:16:15] <mrcoolbp> I think that is a concern
[23:16:24] <matt_> thus the idea of simultaneously increasing the size of the board...
[23:16:26] <mrcoolbp> but I'm honestly less worried about the previous point
[23:16:44] <NCommander> In addition, we're only taking in account fiscial contributions to the site, and not "effort"
[23:16:51] <Bytram> ^^^
[23:17:18] <Bytram> in reading your summary, I wonder if the solution may be hidden within "since the board can not force a buyback"
[23:17:48] <Bytram> is there some opportunity it modifiying the bylaws to address that, and, if so, do we want to?
[23:17:58] <matt_> Bytram, if the board can eliminate its overseers, it has no oversight...
[23:18:14] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: I think we still plan to try to pay the staff something for their time, but as you two have actually put hundreds-thousands of dollars in, the situation is a little different
[23:18:29] <Bytram> matt_: good point.
[23:19:01] <NCommander> The problem is sometimes the watchdog is wrong though
[23:19:25] <mrcoolbp> NCommander is it better without one?
[23:19:30] <Bytram> matt_: so, does that mean it is not a problem that the board cannot force a buyback of shares
[23:19:41] <matt_> NCommander, also why both watchdogs have to agree :)
[23:19:44] <Bytram> iow, can we strike that as a concern and narrow our focus?
[23:19:45] <mrcoolbp> Bytram ^ matter of opinion
[23:19:53] <NCommander> As a note, the board can negate watchdogs merely by issuing additional stock
[23:19:53] <juggs> is it legally possible to get to a state where there effectively are no share / stockholders? i.e. the corp buys back all shares and all board members are simply that
[23:19:54] <mrcoolbp> and a point of contention
[23:20:05] <NCommander> juggs, that's legally what we are now
[23:20:15] <juggs> true
[23:20:24] <mrcoolbp> juggs: and that is still a possibilty if they actually agree to sell the stock back to us
[23:20:29] <mrcoolbp> "if" though
[23:20:35] <NCommander> I have to think in worse case scenarios
[23:20:41] <NCommander> That might not be until years from now
[23:20:42] <matt_> juggs, yes, but i think that's a bad situation, as there is then no one to make the board adhere to our purpose of engaging in and promoting free and open journalism...
[23:21:15] <matt_> juggs, basically, the board could turn SN into something completely different.
[23:21:15] <mrcoolbp> except the relatively benevolant board memebers
[23:21:23] <juggs> don't the byelaws or articles of incorporation or w/e provide a way to enforce the mission?
[23:21:32] <mrcoolbp> matt: couldn't the stockholders also do that?
[23:21:35] <Bytram> NCommander: agreed. though things are fine with the current "occupants"... we need to prepare for less benevolent "participants".
[23:21:42] <matt_> juggs, both can be amended/replaced by the board if there are no stockholders :)
[23:21:54] <juggs> ugh
[23:22:01] <NCommander> Ulitamtely, I keep going back to the not-for-profit model
[23:22:14] <NCommander> Where its a self-appointing board in 9 of 10 organizaitons
[23:22:18] <mrcoolbp> are there cases of NFPs having stockholders?
[23:22:26] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, no, by definition there can't be
[23:22:35] <matt_> mrcoolbp, both stockholders would have to agree, and presumably get others to go along with them unless they planned on running everything themselves.
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[23:22:54] <NCommander> At best, a NFP might have members which elect the board, but the vast majority don't do that
[23:23:00] <NCommander> I.e., wikimedia foundation, the EFF
[23:23:04] * mrcoolbp is torn between agreeing with both matt_ and NCommander at the same time
[23:23:05] <NCommander> Just to name two off the top of my head
[23:23:38] <Bytram> NCommander: thought experiment..
[23:23:44] * NCommander notes that having aparent NFP in the future will be our "permament" oversight
[23:23:47] <Bytram> atm there are just two stockholders.
[23:24:03] <mrcoolbp> (will be but yes)
[23:24:09] <mrcoolbp> it's proposed
[23:24:24] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, maybe we need to take it from proposed, and set a realistic timetable to formation
[23:24:26] <Bytram> if we had, say, 10 (or 20), it would be harder for any one individual to 'run the whole show'
[23:24:47] <matt_> #define 'run the whole show'
[23:25:06] <Bytram> ummm
[23:25:06] <NCommander> In my "perfect" world, the B corp would issue shares to the NFP, who's board acts as the SAN check for the B-corp board
[23:25:22] <Bytram> matt_: meta term to define the problem we are trying to avoid?
[23:25:39] <NCommander> But, even in that case, you're in exactly the same situation, since what forces the NFP board to do the right thing
[23:25:47] <matt_> the issue is that without stockholders, we basically lose the benefit of being a B corp. we are effectively a normal for-profit right now, as there is nothing making the board adhere to the public benefit purpose...
[23:26:22] * NCommander mulls
[23:26:41] <Bytram> off-the-wall thought...
[23:26:43] <NCommander> The problem can be defined in a single sentence
[23:26:48] <NCommander> "Who watches the watchmen?"
[23:26:55] <Bytram> issue a share to each subscriber?
[23:27:15] * NCommander *really* dislikes the idea of money == power
[23:27:35] <matt_> Bytram, i doubt that the US securities and exchange commission would like that :)
[23:27:40] <Bytram> same here, but trying to think ouside the box
[23:27:56] <juggs> NCommander, then who watches the watchmen? Who watches the watchmen's watchers etc...
[23:28:09] <NCommander> matt_, the B corp was something of a stopgap because NFP incorporation was going to be difficult. YOu're right, without share holders, there is nothing keeping us in line
[23:28:17] <Bytram> the general idea I'm trying to express is to provide a means to *dilute* the power of any one person on the board.
[23:28:17] <NCommander> But if we go EVIL, the community is going to bug out
[23:28:35] <Bytram> there'
[23:28:42] <mrcoolbp> and your stock will be worthless NCommander
[23:28:49] <matt_> mrcoolbp, exactly :)
[23:28:53] <Bytram> there's that; there's a built-in negative feedback loop!
[23:28:54] <NCommander> Worse than worthless, I would have TP more valuable :-P
[23:29:10] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: you're incentivised to do the right thing
[23:29:13] <NCommander> though for me, its not a matter of worse
[23:29:15] <NCommander> er
[23:29:16] <NCommander> WORTH
[23:29:19] <Bytram> mrcoolbp++
[23:29:26] <juggs> TP?
[23:29:26] <NCommander> >.>;
[23:29:29] <NCommander> juggs, toliet paper
[23:29:32] <juggs> k
[23:29:33] <NCommander> Its a futurama reference
[23:30:53] <Bytram> mrcoolbp: so, although *technically* NCommander or matt_ could go mad and run rough-shod over the community's wishes, it's in their best interests to do what is right for community.
[23:31:15] <Bytram> else, the community will ork the code, and start their *own* site... just like we did.
[23:31:21] <Bytram> s/ork/fork/
[23:31:24] <mrcoolbp> I think NCommander's argument that makes the most sense is something like: If members of the board takes crazy pills, we can elect new memebers, but if the stockholders do, there's no recourse
[23:31:26] <matt_> Bytram, that, and also, we would both have to go mad at the same time, since neither would have >50% :)
[23:31:56] <mrcoolbp> IMO that is a huge if, and one I'm willing to live with, having met both of you two
[23:32:00] <juggs> Bytram, provided they are solely financially motivated. In going mad they could just decide to torch the place on the way out the door.
[23:32:11] <NCommander> ^- what juggs said
[23:32:13] <NCommander> I remember Jon
[23:32:21] <Bytram> mrcoolbp: so we are most of the way there, we just need to find a way to keep >50% of the stockholders from going crazy at the same time?
[23:32:32] <mrcoolbp> that would be ideal, yes.
[23:32:43] * NCommander is chewing on his lip
[23:32:52] <NCommander> I'm NOT happy with the situation
[23:32:53] <NCommander> But
[23:33:07] <NCommander> I'm debating ACKing it, with the condition that the board focuses on incorporiating a parent NFP ASAP
[23:33:20] <paulej72> If we had 4 stock holders it would be harder to have more than 1/2 go carazy at the same time
[23:33:24] <Bytram> atm NCommander has 50% and matt_ has 50% right
[23:33:34] <mrcoolbp> no
[23:33:42] <mrcoolbp> that is also a "proposed" action
[23:33:47] <Bytram> what if we issued more stock so as to dilute their ownership so that *together* they owned < 50%
[23:34:07] <matt_> Bytram, then the stockholders would be unable to hold the board accountable.
[23:34:07] <NCommander> Bytram, this is the add gas to a fire argument I've brought up
[23:34:35] <NCommander> Oh, as a side note
[23:34:36] <mrcoolbp> paulej72: I like that idea, but it would give the organization more debt in a sense to buy back
[23:34:40] <NCommander> I'm competely for expanding the board
[23:34:40] <Bytram> matt_: I disagree. I think.
[23:34:42] <NCommander> Not sure if I voiced that
[23:34:59] <mrcoolbp> I am too
[23:35:13] <mrcoolbp> I have two nominations actually
[23:35:21] <NCommander> So, one thing we need to be SLIGHTLY careful of
[23:35:28] <matt_> NCommander, me too, although i strongly feel that we should have a solution to this issue either first or at the same time as expanding the board...
[23:35:29] <mrcoolbp> but I'm not sure what "positions they would be"
[23:35:33] <NCommander> If memory serves, the COI allows us to issue 100,000 shares totally
[23:35:37] <NCommander> matt_, indeed
[23:35:38] <Bytram> if the stockholders think the board is doing 'the right thing' there's no problem; and ifthe stockholders think there's a problem, it'll take some work, but enough of them can get tgether and force the board to 'do the right thing'. right?
[23:35:49] <NCommander> We need to make sure at least 51% remains unallocated for NFP buyout :-P
[23:35:52] <audioguy> I have two core problems with the proposal - too few board mebers and stock based solely on financial contributions. And I might add, if stock has been based upon money contributions, offers by others on staff has been con sistently refused, so there was no option for others to participate in this way.
[23:35:52] <matt_> NCommander, it's 1,000,000, actually.
[23:36:07] <NCommander> matt_, so 500,001 shares need to not be allocated :-)
[23:36:19] <Bytram> audioguy++
[23:36:21] <matt_> NCommander, keep in mind that the NFP could also buy shares from current stockholders, but yes, it's a good idea too.
[23:36:36] <NCommander> audioguy makes a fair point
[23:36:50] <NCommander> I turned down the hat in an effort to keep things self-contained
[23:37:01] * NCommander actually forgot about that >.>;
[23:37:06] <mrcoolbp> true
[23:37:11] * Bytram recalls many offers of monetary support
[23:37:21] <NCommander> I do too
[23:37:32] <NCommander> Mostly a matter of not complicating ownership issues >.>;
[23:37:43] <Bytram> with a consistent responsetat money could *not* be accepted as a NF until the legal docs were in order.
[23:37:45] <NCommander> (that may have backfired in hindsight)
[23:38:05] <Bytram> NCommander: but a valiant and noble effort, nonetheless =)
[23:38:14] <NCommander> I wish I had a time machine
[23:38:24] <NCommander> Though if I had a time machine, becoming the richest person on earth would be trivial
[23:38:29] * mrcoolbp runs around in circles chasing this conversation
[23:38:32] <audioguy> So open it up when the stock is issued.
[23:39:05] * NCommander mulls
[23:39:11] <Bytram> hmmm
[23:39:15] <NCommander> At least in the short term I don't think anyone gong mad
[23:39:20] <Bytram> it'll come up at some point...
[23:39:26] <NCommander> What Bytram said
[23:39:32] <NCommander> There's another aspect to take in account
[23:39:39] <NCommander> What happens if the stockholders force a board change
[23:39:48] <Bytram> what about the folks who came, did a boat load of work, and have stepped away or whatever reason... and then want to come back and get 'part of the pie'
[23:40:06] <matt_> NCommanders, then the board changes. if the board was trying to beta the community, this is a good thing!
[23:40:07] <NCommander> The only recourse stockholders have to vote someone out
[23:40:21] <Bytram> based on time and effort.
[23:40:21] <mrcoolbp> Bytram: they are S.O.L. for job abandonment?
[23:40:24] <NCommander> matt_, right, but unless its something clear cut, the SS Dramatrain is going to leave
[23:40:44] <matt_> NCommander, which is why it is very important that the stockholders be very soothing individuals :)
[23:40:53] * NCommander looks around
[23:40:54] <Bytram> mrcoolbp: I'm not advocating for them, just noting that it most likely *will* come up, and we need to be prepared.
[23:41:01] <NCommander> YOu got more potential stockholders to propose?
[23:41:02] * NCommander ducks
[23:42:01] <NCommander> Bytram, that's an argument against, aka, the pandora's box argument
[23:42:51] <Bytram> NCommander: not *against* per se, just something to be mindful of so we aren't caught blind-sided and can be prepared ahead of time. that's all.
[23:43:56] <Bytram> I think, though a bit rough, is summed up quite well by mrcoolbp: "they are S.O.L. for job abandonment?"
[23:44:18] <mrcoolbp> audioguy: I'm afraid if we start issuing stock to other memebers of staff, it's all or nothing, and it has to be equal amounts
[23:44:24] <mrcoolbp> that would be very complicated
[23:44:30] <mrcoolbp> (though I totally see your point)
[23:44:58] <audioguy> I don't see why a few shares is much noire complicated than two
[23:45:04] <NCommander> I think we're all agreed some form of oversight here
[23:45:10] * Bytram has *not* been keeping track of the amount of time he put into the site; suspects most others are in the same boat.
[23:45:23] <NCommander> But part of me wonders if we're putting the cart before the horse
[23:45:40] <NCommander> Ulitmately, none of us are getting paid right now, there isn't a financal incentive right now to be evil
[23:46:06] <NCommander> If as a more-sooner objective we bootstrap the NFP and use THAT for oversight
[23:46:21] <NCommander> I can't help but see that as the correct and fair solution
[23:46:25] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: that will require funding though.
[23:46:35] <mrcoolbp> that's why we skipped it in the first place
[23:46:43] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, right, but now we have a way to raise money
[23:46:52] <mrcoolbp> but this is what is holding us back from making money
[23:46:55] <Bytram> NCommander: I'm missing something here. that sounds to me a lot like: kick the can down the road.
[23:48:01] <NCommander> Bytram, that's essentially what Im saying at this point
[23:48:02] <juggs> NCommander, matt_ - what would be the ballpark costs / effort to stand the NFP up?
[23:48:19] <NCommander> juggs, it was basically determined we'd need a lawyer not to step on landmines
[23:48:29] <matt_> juggs, ^^
[23:48:34] <NCommander> Now, as a B-corp owned by a NFP though, it does sidestep a lot of the painw e had
[23:48:50] <juggs> I'll take that to mean pricey then.
[23:48:56] <mrcoolbp> aye
[23:49:20] <matt_> it costs a lot of money to non-profit.
[23:49:28] <mrcoolbp> heh
[23:49:30] <Bytram> juggs: and hence the problem... we need some money to get a lawyer to help s set up the rules so that we can get some money. =)
[23:49:47] <Bytram> hmmm
[23:50:17] <Bytram> juggs: and hence the problem... we need some money to get a lawyer to help us set up the NFP correctly so that we can get some money to pay for the lawyer. =)
[23:50:33] * mrcoolbp throws an egg at the chicken
[23:50:35] <Bytram> and, oh by the way, now have a NFP in place.
[23:50:43] <Bytram> is that about right?
[23:50:51] <mrcoolbp> more or less
[23:50:55] * Bytram ignores the governing issue atm
[23:51:18] <juggs> isn't the entire topic of this meeting Bytram ?
[23:51:20] <Bytram> mrcoolbp: you missed. it's on the other side of the road.
[23:51:58] <mrcoolbp> juggs: kinda, we are evaluating methods for transfer of Tangible and intangible property to the B-Corp
[23:52:16] <mrcoolbp> some of those introduce "interesting" governance issues
[23:52:25] <Bytram> mrcoolbp: exactly.
[23:52:42] <juggs> we need a lawyer :D xD
[23:52:55] <matt_> mrcoolbp, i would say we're evaluating methods for governance/accountability, and some of those have interesting features of eliminating debt :)
[23:53:04] <mrcoolbp> sure.
[23:53:22] <Bytram> matt_++ nice summation!
[23:54:10] <mrcoolbp> Well, from my perspective, one things for sure, we are a unique organization
[23:54:11] <Bytram> so, if [enough of] the board goes mad, the users revolt, fork the code, and go play elsewhere leaving the board with nothing.
[23:54:26] <Bytram> if the board stays sane, then not a problem.
[23:54:28] <NCommander> Bytram, you still spliter the community when you do that
[23:54:33] <juggs> mrcoolbp, I doubt we are unique
[23:54:33] <Bytram> true.
[23:54:42] <NCommander> Ulitamtely, I'd like to put the board ejection switch in the hands of the community
[23:55:07] <Bytram> NCommander: hmmmm
[23:55:20] <Bytram> we've been talking with a US-flavored view of governance...
[23:55:49] <juggs> NCommander, does the issuance of stock nix that option?
[23:55:55] <Bytram> what about the concept of a more 'parliamentary' form of govt... vote of no-confidence. can that help in any way?
[23:56:15] <NCommander> We could create a true community oversight position on the board
[23:56:18] <NCommander> BUT
[23:56:23] <NCommander> The board cna change its own bylaws
[23:56:33] <mrcoolbp> juggs: kinda
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[23:57:03] <matt_> NCommander, exactly, unless there is a mechanism to overrule them in such extreme cases.
[23:57:04] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: not if the community oversight person vetoes that
[23:57:14] <Bytram> then we just take *your* ball and go home... that's how we got here in the first place!
[23:57:17] <audioguy> Does anyone disagree we need more board members?
[23:57:20] <matt_> mrcoolbp, but the board could just fire the community oversight person :)
[23:57:29] <mrcoolbp> oh = (
[23:57:56] <mrcoolbp> audioguy: I don't think anyone disagrees with that. I'd like to move towards 5 memebers
[23:57:57] <Bytram> audioguy: we only have 3 board members atm, right? what if we had, say, 7 or 9 board members.
[23:58:08] <matt_> audioguy, so, the only issue there is that we seem to have a little difficulty getting three people to agree...
[23:58:20] <mrcoolbp> Bytram, 9 seems like a lot, I'd rather give up my seat then have that many
[23:58:22] <Bytram> as the numbers go up, though, it makes it much harder to agree
[23:58:31] <Bytram> I'd prefer to keep it down to 5-7.
[23:58:36] <matt_> audioguy, it seems to me that it would be good to get the basic structures of governance set up, and then immediately expand the board.
[23:58:48] <audioguy> 5-7 works.
[23:59:00] <matt_> yeah, 5-7 seems rational.
[23:59:29] <audioguy> Proposed, curent board adds 1, community elects 2
[23:59:31] <Bytram> so, can we just work with the assumption (for the time being) that when the time comes, we'll expand the board to 5-7 members?
[23:59:40] <Bytram> I so motion.
[23:59:51] <NCommander> Bytram, I believe that's the flightplan
[23:59:58] <NCommander> I think we're expanding to five, and then playing it by ear