#staff | Logs for 2014-08-20

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[14:24:13] <mechanicjay> NCommander paulej72 audioguy Is there a reason that hydrogen is down?
[14:26:27] <paulej72> yes
[14:27:11] <mechanicjay> ok, just wondering, Blackmoore said he got a 503, so I popped on to check the status of the front-ends and saw that everything was down on Hydrogen.
[14:27:15] <paulej72> it is having a hissy fit and serving up pages too slowly to be in service
[14:27:46] <paulej72> I reloaded to deploy a fix just a bit ago
[14:28:42] <mechanicjay> ah, okay, that could explain it.
[14:33:17] <mechanicjay> paulej72 said he reloaded stuff for a fix a little while ago, you might have hit at just the wrong time.
[14:45:57] <mrcoolbp> LaminatorX: I just saw your note about the meeting announcement, not sure what happened but it was apparently only thrown up on the main "site news" box on main page
[14:55:19] <juggs> mrcoolbp, was an announcement meant to be sent out to the staff mailing list?
[14:55:38] <mrcoolbp> it really should
[14:55:54] <mrcoolbp> kinda late now....maybe I should anyway...
[14:55:57] <mrcoolbp> ig
[14:56:01] <mrcoolbp> ug
[14:56:09] <paulej72> jug
[14:56:10] * juggs nods
[14:56:20] <juggs> reminds me I need to change my email addy on that list
[14:56:24] <juggs> hugs!
[14:56:33] <LaminatorX> Same deak with the board meetings a month or so back. Things like that should really go out to the staff email list.
[14:56:41] <paulej72> jugg@dev.null.org
[15:02:05] <mrcoolbp> LaminatorX: yes, I'm not sure what happened, we were in the middle of scheduling a board meeting, it got changed to a Staff+Board meeting, announced to main page, all while I was away on business
[15:02:40] <mrcoolbp> LaminatorX: http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[15:04:42] <LaminatorX> Good.
[15:05:13] * mrcoolbp is wondering if we should push out an announcement to staff list now (however late it will be)
[15:06:07] <n1> mrcoolbp, i don't think that would be a bad idea.
[15:06:21] <mrcoolbp> okay...I'll do it.
[15:08:16] <n1> I intend to observe the meeting but wont be able to participate (sad faces all round i'm sure), as this evening i have a staff meeting of my own to attend. I hope to have my tablet on irc to follow it though.
[15:11:22] <mrcoolbp> sent
[15:15:22] <cosurgi> how long until the meeting?
[15:15:40] <cosurgi> I hope it's not after my timezone midnight
[15:15:50] <n1> 11UTC i believe
[15:15:56] <n1> 2300
[15:16:06] <LaminatorX> We're having dinner at my brother's house tonight. Nothing on the agenda seems Editorial-specific, but I'll still try to pop in and out as best I can.
[15:16:32] <cosurgi> damn, it's 1 am in my timezone :(
[15:16:36] <cosurgi> http://www.wolframalpha.com
[15:16:58] <cosurgi> I'll try to attend, but cannot promise
[15:17:21] <n1> LaminatorX, i'll be disappointed no one suggests we should be hanged.
[15:18:30] <mrcoolbp> cosurgi: if you'd like something brought up, we are happy to do so for you
[15:19:26] <cosurgi> mrcoolbp: definitely bitpay.com , gocoin.com
[15:20:16] <cosurgi> mrcoolbp: they provide very easy api to plug into the webpage. And upon registration you just provide the bank account number where you want USD to flow
[15:21:03] <mrcoolbp> cosurgi: I'm trying to remember (just woke up a few min ago) but I thought there was a reason we were holding off on that for now
[15:21:31] <LaminatorX> I believe there's a script that appends that to the minutes, n1. It saves time that way.
[15:21:35] <mrcoolbp> probably integrating that into slashcode being a headache (the paypall code was partially written already and that took 2 weeks)
[15:21:37] <cosurgi> mrcoolbp: AFAIK NCommander was overloaded to think about that, but he didn't reject it for any other reason.
[15:21:58] <mrcoolbp> yeah, NCommander could reallly better answer that one
[15:22:02] <mrcoolbp> I can bring it up if you like
[15:22:10] <n1> heh, and on that note. I'm out until the meeting. Laters folks
[15:22:12] <cosurgi> mrcoolbp: yes, please do that.
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[15:22:54] <cosurgi> I'll still try to attend the meeting, but can't promise.
[15:23:09] <mrcoolbp> cosurgi: yes, and understood
[15:27:37] <mrcoolbp> BRB
[15:49:54] <mrcoolbp> .op
[15:49:54] -!- mode/#staff [+o mrcoolbp] by juggler
[15:49:56] <mrcoolbp> .topicappend Tonight: Wednesday, August 20th, at 7PM EDT (11PM UTC) staff/board meeting in #staff
[15:49:56] juggler changed topic of #staff to: http://cosurgi.info | Tonight: Wednesday, August 20th, at 7PM EDT (11PM UTC) staff/board meeting in #staff
[15:51:05] <mrcoolbp> .topic Tonight: Wednesday, August 20th, at 7PM EDT (11PM UTC) staff/board meeting in this channel | user graph: http://cosurgi.info
[15:51:05] juggler changed topic of #staff to: Tonight: Wednesday, August 20th, at 7PM EDT (11PM UTC) staff/board meeting in this channel | user graph: http://cosurgi.info
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[16:14:42] <mechanicjay> FYI, I will be a little late to the meeting tonight
[16:15:43] <mrcoolbp> cool, if you'd like anything raised at the meeting, you could reply to the announcement I sent a little while ago AND/OR let me know
[16:16:36] <mrcoolbp> pretty sure I raised an issue for you at the first meeting
[16:21:14] <mechanicjay> You did. I think I'm okay this time, I should only be max, 30 minutes late
[16:22:21] <mrcoolbp> cool cool
[16:22:28] <mrcoolbp> I'll keep a seat warm for you
[16:23:06] <juggs> do we have an agenda published as yet?
[16:41:52] <mrcoolbp> I think the main item we'd like to discuss is the stock proposal, and that has not really been released publicly
[16:42:22] <mrcoolbp> I'd like to wait for either Matt, or Micheal before we do that specifically, but it's a good point juggs
[16:42:39] <mrcoolbp> I'd like the agenda's to be posted at the same time the announcement is made really
[16:42:40] <juggs> ahh I remember that from the last meeting. Has any progress been made since then?
[16:42:46] <mrcoolbp> kind of.
[16:43:00] <juggs> I shall wait to hear ten :)
[16:43:03] <juggs> then*
[16:45:18] <mrcoolbp> juggs: The point of contention is bassically: issuing stock to the financial contributers would get SN out of debt which is really important, but it would effectively distill most of the corporation's decision-making power to (mostly) two people
[16:46:03] * mrcoolbp notes the structure of that sentence underlines the complexities of the matter
[16:46:18] <mrcoolbp> BRB need food
[16:46:31] <paulej72> no no food for you mrcoolbp
[16:48:27] * mrcoolbp beats paulej72 with his unobtanium pitchfork
[16:48:47] <juggs> most excellent - are those available in the store now?
[16:49:37] <mrcoolbp> paulej72: this page needs some love: http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[16:49:52] <mrcoolbp> paulej72: I added that link to the Category: ....Servers
[16:50:06] <mrcoolbp> but the list directly below it is very out-dated
[16:50:36] <mrcoolbp> (the link is basically a quick hack to make it easy to see a "list" of our servers)
[16:50:55] <mrcoolbp> juggs: the're unobtainable
[16:52:05] <paulej72> mrcoolbp: I have been working on it slowly. soylent-www got an update Monday night
[16:52:30] <mrcoolbp> sure.
[16:53:11] <mrcoolbp> Basically I just keep hearing element names and can't remember which server does what, then I go to check the wiki for a list of those with explanations and coming up empty
[16:53:16] <paulej72> I think I want to list each group as a bunch and then the indiviual servers. under it.
[16:53:55] <mrcoolbp> sounds sane
[16:54:38] <mrcoolbp> would be nice to have:
[16:54:39] <mrcoolbp> -$ServerName : $Description
[16:54:40] <mrcoolbp> -$ServerName : $Description
[16:54:41] <mrcoolbp> etc.
[16:55:19] <mrcoolbp> okay, food for real. Highlight me and I keel youuuu
[16:55:24] <paulej72> we have that, but it is hidden right now. someone forgot to make a master page
[16:55:34] <paulej72> mrcoolbp:
[16:55:41] <paulej72> hehehe
[16:56:07] <mrcoolbp> yoouuu dirty rat!
[16:56:26] <paulej72> lol
[16:56:52] <paulej72> it a goal
[17:07:35] <mrcoolbp> paulej72: "it a goal" ? I thnk yu ar missng somthing in thre
[17:08:07] <paulej72> lol ref giving a goal symbol
[17:09:10] <mrcoolbp> even that ^ seems like an incomplete statement sir.
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[22:29:09] <blackmoore|afk> I'll hop in from home later but i expect I'll have missed the meat of the meeting
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[22:56:51] <mrcoolbp> matt_ & NCommander: we ready to go?
[22:57:55] <NCommander> Indeed
[22:58:01] <matt_> mrcoolbp, so i am a little confused by: "The next general staff and board meeting for the site will be on Wednesday..."
[22:58:04] <matt_> the site doesn't have a board, the corp. doesn't have a staff, and i don't know what a "general staff and board meeting" is...
[22:58:09] <matt_> otherwise, makes perfect sense! :P
[22:58:46] * mrcoolbp sighs
[22:59:07] <mrcoolbp> ------------------====Staff & Board Meeting Starts NOW====-----------------------
[23:00:03] <mrcoolbp> matt_ would you like to take the floor?
[23:00:26] * juggs asks who is chairing and who is minuting
[23:00:39] * NCommander can chair
[23:00:47] <mrcoolbp> second
[23:00:51] <matt_> mrcoolbp, umm. would you like to go over the issues from the wiki?
[23:00:53] <matt_> third
[23:01:12] <mrcoolbp> matt_ I'd like to focus on the stock proposal
[23:01:21] <matt_> mrcoolbp, ok.
[23:01:27] <mrcoolbp> if we have time we can visit other topics for which I'm prepared to speak on
[23:01:37] <matt_> so, let me say one thing about that:
[23:01:42] <NCommander> Can someone bring up the link to the wiki?
[23:01:46] <mrcoolbp> sure
[23:01:47] <mrcoolbp> sec
[23:01:47] * NCommander is having searching issues
[23:02:22] <mrcoolbp> http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[23:02:26] <mrcoolbp> http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[23:02:39] <mrcoolbp> lets focus on this one first though ^
[23:02:48] <matt_> For the record, if we can't come up with a better option by next Monday, I will offer to donate the assets that I got from B. to the corp., free of charge.
[23:03:10] <NCommander> matt_, regardless of what happens, I do want to make sure you're at least compinisating for time and effort
[23:03:25] <NCommander> We have a bad tendency to rathole on the stock issue, so I'm going to put it last, if that's ok
[23:03:38] <matt_> nevertheless, we are being held up on two important fronts: wildcard certs and fundraising.
[23:03:47] <mrcoolbp> NCommander sure, your the chair = )
[23:03:54] <NCommander> Let's go right down the list
[23:04:06] <mrcoolbp> Issue 1: Add support for crypto-currency via bitpay.com or gocoin.com for Subscription payment method
[23:04:06] <NCommander> !topic Add support for crypto-currency via bitpay.com or gocoin.com for Subscription payment method
[23:04:15] <NCommander> .... forgot we don't have a meeting bot
[23:04:18] <mrcoolbp> = (
[23:04:50] <NCommander> So, if we're not directly handling bitcoin, we should theorically be exempt from capital gains stuff
[23:04:51] <NCommander> BUT
[23:04:55] <NCommander> Its not 100% clear
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[23:05:10] <NCommander> I did throw this question back to my accountant, and I got a resulting "I dunno"
[23:05:14] <Bytram> .op
[23:05:14] -!- mode/#staff [+o Bytram] by juggler
[23:05:18] <mrcoolbp> .op matt_
[23:05:18] -!- mode/#staff [+o matt_] by juggler
[23:05:32] Bytram changed topic of #staff to: Add support for crypto-currency via bitpay.com or gocoin.com for Subscription payment method
[23:05:44] <audioguy> Suggest we table this til a later date as it may be complex and does nto seem likely to greatly help us immediately
[23:05:52] <mrcoolbp> second
[23:05:56] <NCommander> Item tabled
[23:05:58] <NCommander> Moving on
[23:05:58] <mrcoolbp> we need to get an expert on that one
[23:06:13] NCommander changed topic of #staff to: Currently our hosting costs are high for the amount of traffic we have, is there any way we can reduce that with minimal drawbacks? I realize this has been discussed before, and that our current setup allows us some room for growth, but as I understand additional nodes could be spun up as needed
[23:06:21] <NCommander> So, I talked with paulej72 on this one
[23:06:30] <Bytram> point of order... the motion was seconded, but properly needs a vote to table it.
[23:06:34] <NCommander> Oops
[23:06:43] <NCommander> Vote to table the cryptocoin discussion?
[23:06:45] <NCommander> Aye
[23:06:46] <mrcoolbp> Aye!
[23:06:50] <audioguy> aye
[23:06:59] <matt_> Aye!
[23:07:04] * NCommander notes technically we're in the board meeting half of this
[23:07:08] <NCommander> Motion tabled
[23:07:11] <juggs> wait - who gets to vote lol
[23:07:15] * Bytram asks: is this a board meeting or staff meeting
[23:07:20] <mrcoolbp> both = )
[23:07:23] <Bytram> i.e. who can vote?
[23:07:27] <matt_> also, keep in mind that that means we will clear the item from the wiki.
[23:07:27] <NCommander> This is board meeting ATM, then we cascidate into staff meeting
[23:07:38] <audioguy> This is astff mtg, are there not other staff here who should be voting?
[23:07:44] <audioguy> staff mtg
[23:07:55] * matt_ is confused about that as well...
[23:08:05] <Bytram> so: as this is currently the Board Meeting, matt_ mrcoolbp and NCommander are the only ones who can vote.
[23:08:11] <mrcoolbp> correct
[23:08:18] <NCommander> My intent was to run a normal board meeting, then have a staff meeting directly following
[23:08:24] <mrcoolbp> ^^^
[23:08:25] <NCommander> Board == business stuff + legal stuff
[23:08:28] <audioguy> Oh, then sorry, I thought this was staff mtg
[23:08:29] <NCommander> staff == internal matters
[23:08:43] <Bytram> k
[23:08:43] <NCommander> audioguy, your input is welcome, and you're welcome to parcipate
[23:08:49] <NCommander> Just voting is limited during board meetings
[23:08:49] <mrcoolbp> audioguy: that will follow
[23:09:01] <audioguy> OK.
[23:09:13] <NCommander> So
[23:09:16] <juggs> Aye!
[23:09:18] <NCommander> Repeating the topic
[23:09:24] <NCommander> Currently our hosting costs are high for the amount of traffic we have, is there any way we can reduce that with minimal drawbacks? I realize this has been discussed before, and that our current setup allows us some room for growth, but as I understand additional nodes could be spun up as needed
[23:09:29] <NCommander> I discussed this with paul at some length
[23:10:07] <NCommander> We've got our own self-rolled backup service to oxygen which is pretty much on par with what Linode is offering and cheaper to boot, so after I get it documented, and others are happy they otherstand it, we can nix the Linode backups
[23:10:14] <NCommander> Which will save about $40 USD per month
[23:10:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> yay moneys
[23:10:30] <paulej72> but
[23:10:40] <NCommander> paulej72, but?
[23:10:48] <paulej72> we need to upgrade boron to a 4G
[23:11:07] <mrcoolbp> ....which would cost more I'm guessing
[23:11:12] <NCommander> ANother $20 USD
[23:11:18] <Bytram> paulej72: 4G? as in 4 GB of RAM?
[23:11:21] <NCommander> YEah
[23:11:32] <NCommander> Linode 4096
[23:11:35] <mrcoolbp> savings of $20/month total
[23:11:48] <NCommander> Well, there's other hanging fruit we can kill
[23:11:51] <paulej72> doubles the cpus and doubles the network bandwidth
[23:11:58] <FunPika> Any nodes that have more than what they need that could be downgraded?
[23:12:03] <NCommander> paulej72, the internal should be the same no matter what. bandwidth is for external
[23:12:12] <NCommander> FunPika, the only thing that isn't "cheapest" is the production nodes
[23:12:44] <NCommander> In terms of killing nodes
[23:12:53] <mrcoolbp> which is actually 4 nodes right?
[23:13:06] <mrcoolbp> 2 front, 2 back?
[23:13:08] <NCommander> We have 9 total, plus offsite backup machine which is oxgeyn
[23:13:13] <paulej72> NCommander; I need to confim the network as I wan not seeing that, but I may have not have been using the interal addresses
[23:13:15] <NCommander> 2 front, 2 back, 1 slashd + misc (boron)
[23:13:40] <NCommander> RIght now, hydrogen is out of service
[23:14:04] <NCommander> DUe to slashcode limitations, we can't do hotfailback, so we're not getting too much out of 2 back, but I intend to fix this with the next major site upgrade
[23:14:09] <Bytram> though average performance is interesting, how are these holding up under peak load?
[23:14:20] <mrcoolbp> ^^^
[23:14:28] <NCommander> MySQL 5.6 added support for fulltext searching to InnoDB, so I think we can go and dump MyISAM across the board
[23:14:42] <Bytram> dump ==> remove?
[23:14:47] <NCommander> Yeah
[23:14:50] <Bytram> nod nod
[23:15:01] <NCommander> That would give us hot failback, and allow for easier node servicing and upgrading
[23:15:01] <paulej72> the forntends and boron are mostly ram limited at the momemt. they swap a lot.
[23:15:10] <NCommander> paulej72, fluorine is swapping?
[23:15:11] <NCommander> Ugh
[23:15:12] <NCommander> -_-;
[23:15:27] <NCommander> If we have to upgrade those again, we might be better off looking for dedicated servers
[23:15:52] <paulej72> Gluster is ram hog
[23:15:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> and ways to trim additional disk writes to gluster directories
[23:15:56] <Bytram> NCommander: or, see if there's something we can reduce/remove to lessen the memory pressure.
[23:16:09] <paulej72> Not sure if that can be tuned to use less
[23:16:13] <audioguy> I am wondering about how many virtual servers == 1 hardware server, and if we might be better off doing this ourslves.
[23:16:31] <NCommander> audioguy, Linode was a "best choice at the time"
[23:16:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> rss is low hanging fruit there, we should be able to get rid of an every 10m slashd task that writes to the htdocs folder
[23:16:39] <NCommander> If we can get signficant saving/something going elsewhere
[23:16:42] <paulej72> vertual servers allow use easy redundancy
[23:16:44] <NCommander> I suggest we explore it
[23:17:00] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, that runs on boron though
[23:17:02] <audioguy> But at the time we did not have so many machines
[23:17:12] <NCommander> Well, there are some machines we can get rid of
[23:17:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, still hits gluster
[23:17:23] <mrcoolbp> okay, so who will explore Alternate Hosting?
[23:17:28] <mrcoolbp> need a volunteer
[23:17:33] * TheMightyBuzzard puts that aside for now
[23:17:42] * NCommander looks at audioguy
[23:18:19] <NCommander> ...
[23:18:20] * juggs mentions Digital Ocean at this juncture.
[23:18:30] <audioguy> Thinking... :-) I can do it, but I don't usually use anything but may own hardware, so someone else might know the field better.
[23:18:32] * Bytram suggests we make an "Ask Soylentnews" story about it.
[23:18:43] <mrcoolbp> not a bad idea
[23:18:44] <NCommander> Vote "Throw it to the community?"
[23:18:49] <mrcoolbp> sure
[23:18:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, meta, i like it.
[23:18:50] <audioguy> Good idea
[23:18:51] <NCommander> Aye
[23:18:52] <matt_> Aye!
[23:18:53] <mrcoolbp> Aye
[23:18:58] <mrcoolbp> passes
[23:19:01] <NCommander> Ok, I guess I'll take the action item to write it up
[23:19:05] <mrcoolbp> thanks
[23:19:11] <NCommander> In other terms on this front
[23:19:18] <NCommander> We have some things we can downsize to reduce the number of nodes
[23:19:31] <juggs> Also would it be worth setting up some mrtg / nagios type monitoring to keep track of the resources on the various servers over time?
[23:19:42] <NCommander> We can probably loose two for another $40 dollars of savings, (merging nitrogen and carbon into beryllium)
[23:19:43] <paulej72> move beryllium stuff to nitrogen and kill bery
[23:19:58] <NCommander> juggs, we have icingia setup for awhile, but I tihnk it broke, and xlefay had vanished into the void
[23:20:08] <paulej72> do not keep bery it is the devil
[23:20:13] <NCommander> Ok
[23:20:21] <NCommander> Maybe retire Bery, and keep carbon :-P
[23:20:22] <paulej72> it is the odd man out being centos
[23:20:26] <audioguy> :-)
[23:20:34] <mrcoolbp> so, prospective $60/mo savings, that's something
[23:20:40] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, probably more
[23:20:43] <NCommander> if we're careful
[23:20:43] <mrcoolbp> great
[23:20:47] <NCommander> lithium is too valuable to axe
[23:21:02] <NCommander> Beyond that, I don't see much in the low hanging fruits department
[23:21:15] <mrcoolbp> sounds good. Thanks NCommander
[23:21:31] <audioguy> the lists should be on staff.
[23:21:35] <audioguy> boron
[23:21:58] <NCommander> audioguy, there's a list of stuff and nodes on the wiki, I just don't see what else we could cut without impacting crap
[23:22:15] <paulej72> move mail to boron, other stuff to carbon
[23:22:17] <audioguy> I am not disagreeing
[23:22:42] <NCommander> I think the specifics are out of scope here, this is "lets save some money :-)"
[23:22:56] <NCommander> Let's leave further discussion to the mailing list and/or staff meeting
[23:23:06] <NCommander> Moving onto the next item down the line
[23:23:07] <mrcoolbp> agreed
[23:23:08] <audioguy> Agree, this is for a sysops/dev meeting
[23:23:12] NCommander changed topic of #staff to: Enrol in the SpiderOak Affiliate Program. See the ShareASale page for more information.
[23:23:15] NCommander changed topic of #staff to: Enroll in the SpiderOak Affiliate Program. See the ShareASale page for more information.
[23:23:25] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, this is your baby, so if you would :-)
[23:23:30] <mrcoolbp> sure
[23:23:48] <juggs> http://www.shareasale.com << ShareASale page
[23:24:01] <mrcoolbp> https://spideroak.com does what is similar to dropbox with well recognized security
[23:24:22] <mrcoolbp> the link that juggs sent above describes the program I'm proposing
[23:24:39] <mrcoolbp> basically we refer people to spider oak and we get money
[23:24:51] <mrcoolbp> That's pretty much it
[23:25:01] <NCommander> So ...
[23:25:13] <NCommander> Opening a referals program is a bit iffy IMHO
[23:25:22] <mrcoolbp> why's that?
[23:25:23] <NCommander> If we do it, we want to make sure what we're recommending is good
[23:25:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> i lurve this idea. extremely well targeted advertising of a product that our community partially already uses.
[23:25:28] <juggs> Q: Can existing SpiderOak users become referred? :)
[23:25:32] <audioguy> I doubt few of our users would be interested in this. Do a poll
[23:25:39] <NCommander> Also audioguy's point
[23:25:48] <mrcoolbp> okay, maybe we run a poll then
[23:25:50] <NCommander> Unless we buy the referal on the FAQ, where do we want to hang it?
[23:25:51] <Bytram> "If you are not paying for it, then you are the product." -- what's the downside?
[23:25:56] -!- SoyCow1098 [SoyCow1098!~3293445c@s-14-806-84-99.hsd2.tn.comcast.net] has joined #staff
[23:26:06] <mrcoolbp> juggs:I'm not sure about your question but I doubt it
[23:26:10] <juggs> Bytram, their model is the upsell to paid tiers.
[23:26:14] <NCommander> "Disallowed sites include: Any illegal, porn, hate, etc... on your site, or on sites that you link to "
[23:26:40] <Bytram> juggs: thanks!
[23:26:42] <audioguy> We coould offer back services ourselves in the future, once things are stable and we actually have income.
[23:26:55] <NCommander> audioguy, the community bit my head off last time I brought that up
[23:27:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, there's room on my screen right under the SoylentNews slashbox
[23:27:15] <audioguy> Then maybe not :-)
[23:27:19] <mrcoolbp> audioguy: that seems like a lot of work/liability etc.
[23:27:38] <mrcoolbp> let's not worry about where to hang the referral link
[23:27:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> lil square badge or its own slashbox
[23:27:50] * NCommander is mulling
[23:27:50] <audioguy> Everything connected to any biusiness is a lot of work and carries liability. :-)
[23:27:52] <Bytram> I would suggest that any such action on our part be noted as strinly being a referral instead of an endorsement... we should stick, as much as possible, to our PBC's goal.
[23:27:52] <juggs> audioguy, SpiderOak takes care of clientside encryption before upload... that's not easy to get right.
[23:28:12] <Bytram> s/stringly/strictly/
[23:28:24] <NCommander> Bytram, I won't object to endorsing someone if the staff reviews it at length, and feel its something we'd recommend to our users
[23:28:35] <NCommander> As long as our policy is not to accept money FOR the endorsement
[23:28:39] <audioguy> That is why I like doing my own encryption :-)
[23:28:54] * NCommander notes, for the record, audioguy would build a compiler with two sticks if he could :-P
[23:29:12] <audioguy> That is true. :-)
[23:29:21] <mrcoolbp> Okay, well do we need to poll the community on this one? What do we think?
[23:29:40] <NCommander> Well, here's the points we need to discuss
[23:30:08] <juggs> I can do a brief write up on ~using~ SpiderOak on both linux and win7 if it helps at all.
[23:30:19] <NCommander> 1. We've made it very clear we're not doing ads unless we have to. Now, strictly speaking, this isn't an ad, but I want some feedback if it goes against the spirit of that
[23:30:35] <NCommander> 2. Make sure we're not tracking anyone, the referal should be a <a href> with locally hosted assets
[23:30:36] <Bytram> Nod nod. This would set a precedent, so I'd suggest we think this through as to what it would look like in a year or two.
[23:30:49] <NCommander> And Bytram stole point 3
[23:31:09] <Bytram> LOL!
[23:31:32] <mrcoolbp> juggs: can you look into point # 2 for us?
[23:31:54] <NCommander> As I said, I don't object, at least in concept, to this, but before we open pandoras box, lets make sure we know what we're doing
[23:31:58] <juggs> Good point NCommander - what is shareasale's relationship with Spider...
[23:32:08] <juggs> I'll take that action
[23:32:15] <NCommander> juggs, it might require an email to them
[23:32:27] * NCommander notes things like GHostly usually doesn't always catch off-site hosted stuff
[23:32:34] <juggs> I think I can stretch to that :D
[23:32:37] <NCommander> :-)
[23:32:40] <NCommander> Awesome
[23:32:52] <Bytram> as to item #1, what makes this to NOT be an advert? Walks like a duck, ... it's an ad. Is it the *way* we get paid, the *timing*, or what?
[23:32:56] <mrcoolbp> okay, so we can mull and revisit once we get response from Juggs
[23:33:04] <Bytram> i that a motion?
[23:33:12] * NCommander has a bit more to talk about
[23:33:19] <mrcoolbp> oh sorry = )
[23:33:21] <NCommander> I think we need to define a general policy on this
[23:33:28] <NCommander> Since this question is going to repeat
[23:34:06] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: would this be SN Policy manual fodder, or a bylaws thing?
[23:34:10] <mrcoolbp> I'd guess the former
[23:34:11] <NCommander> Basically, do we refer folks to services (i.e., if we do a review of something, then I don't think anyone would object to sticking a referal link IN the review)
[23:34:36] <NCommander> If we do, do we limit it to when we refer/review things, or have a general purpose "referals" bar
[23:34:37] <juggs> as long as we are not getting back-handers
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[23:34:50] <matt_> NCommander, if we get paid in connection with a review, that could give the appearance of a conflict of interest.
[23:34:51] <NCommander> The former is pretty simple IMHO
[23:34:59] -!- mj [mj!~3293445c@s-14-806-84-99.hsd2.tn.comcast.net] has joined #staff
[23:35:02] <Bytram> NCommander: as long as it is *plainly* stated in the review that it *is* an affiliate link.
[23:35:05] <juggs> ohh - referrals - we would be getting backhanders lol
[23:35:12] <mrcoolbp> Bytram: agreed
[23:35:17] <NCommander> Bytram, matt_: hence the need for a policy
[23:35:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, ^^matt_. If we're going to advertise stuff we like, let's be up front about it being advertising.
[23:35:42] <mrcoolbp> absolutely
[23:35:44] <NCommander> Remember we want to be journalists, neutrality is our bread and butter :-)
[23:35:47] <Bytram> areed
[23:35:52] <Bytram> agreed
[23:36:31] <NCommander> So, I think the correct action here is we figure out what our policy is
[23:36:34] <NCommander> The board reviews it
[23:36:41] <NCommander> Then it goes into the SN Policy manual
[23:36:48] <NCommander> Who wants the task of writing something up about it?
[23:36:59] * mrcoolbp looks at Bytram
[23:37:18] * Bytram ponders
[23:37:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, we should have several so we can take the best of each and argue about them.
[23:37:52] <NCommander> FOr and against?
[23:37:53] <NCommander> I like that
[23:38:00] <Bytram> I'm better at reviewing than composing; I'll gladly assist whomever drafts the original.
[23:38:19] -!- LaminatorX [LaminatorX!~63163961@22-50-35-25.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #staff
[23:38:20] * NCommander is reminded of old babylon proverb: "Understanding is a three edged blade: their side, your side and the truth"
[23:38:49] <mrcoolbp> hear, hear.
[23:38:55] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, since you brought htis up, would you be willing to take the "for" side of the arguement on the advantages of doing this?
[23:39:07] <mrcoolbp> sure, I'll work with juggs
[23:39:33] <Bytram> hmmm, could make for an interesting 'story'...
[23:39:34] <mrcoolbp> if he isn't sick of me yet
[23:39:41] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, Bytram care to collobrate on the against?
[23:40:04] * NCommander recommends at least 500+ words to 1k on both sides
[23:40:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> sure sure
[23:40:14] <Bytram> word word word word word word word word word word word word word word word word word word word word word word word word word word
[23:40:17] <Bytram> that's a start.
[23:40:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, an NCommander post then.
[23:40:19] <NCommander> To be done by the next staff meeting :-P
[23:40:24] <mrcoolbp> k
[23:40:26] <Bytram> when's that?
[23:40:32] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, the community might get confused if its not XXXX words in article
[23:40:39] <NCommander> Bytram, thats a discussion point later :-)
[23:40:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> true true
[23:41:04] <Bytram> so long as it's at least a couple weeks away, I'd be willing.
[23:41:37] <juggs> OK - so to summarise - we want to review all available file lockers and assess their affiliate schemes? Did I get that right?
[23:41:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> you want this general or specific. if specific we'll need to collaborate with mrcoolbp and juggs
[23:41:52] * Bytram notes the next staff meeting should be within the next 30 minutes or so. :(
[23:42:04] * NCommander moves to speed this up
[23:42:12] <mrcoolbp> juggs: I think we were just looking at spider oak for now, I guess we could look at others if we find them
[23:42:28] <NCommander> What I think we need is a review of SpiderOak Affiliate Program, thoughts on if we should even doing affilations, and the pro/cons against it
[23:42:28] <Bytram> oh! if that is what we were discussing, I need to politely decline... never used one.
[23:42:40] <NCommander> Gah
[23:42:41] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: yeah I think we got the juicy bits on ths one already
[23:42:41] <Bytram> okay, that's better.
[23:42:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> gotcha
[23:43:02] <Bytram> more of a 'meta' discussion?
[23:43:04] <juggs> I suggest we take this offline to a working group. mrcoolbp, juggs, TheMightyBuzzard.
[23:43:08] <NCommander> The decision is more boardly put that if we should go down this road
[23:43:30] <NCommander> I don't thikn we know enough to say yes/no, and as matt_ said, this could comprimise our neutraity in some respects
[23:43:46] <NCommander> Furthermore, its something that can always be put off until we're near bankrupt :-)
[23:43:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> need a partner who is good with english. i'm too concise.
[23:44:00] <mrcoolbp> The
[23:44:04] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: if we're doing the *meta* discussion, then I'm in.
[23:44:11] <Bytram> coffee++
[23:44:11] <Bender> karma - coffee: 1
[23:44:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> cheers, Bytram
[23:44:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++
[23:44:14] <Bender> karma - coffee: 2
[23:44:17] <Bytram> lol
[23:44:17] <audioguy> Purely as a user, I would prefer just donating directly to soylent, without a third party scraping off a cut. I have seen this sentiment expessed by others in various discussion. Our user base is small and very loyal at this point, I cannot help but wonder if such schemes are premature.
[23:44:20] <mrcoolbp> TheMightyBuzzard: we can all 4 work together as juggs suggested
[23:44:41] <mrcoolbp> audioguy: that's the next topic of discussion kinda
[23:44:42] <Bytram> audioguy: that is one of the points that we will enumerate.
[23:45:06] <NCommander> If nothing else, (we hope) that will change, so must be prepared for the future
[23:45:25] <audioguy> ok :-)
[23:45:31] <Bytram> If I understand correctly, our *primary* goal is to gather pros [cons] and bring them to the board so *they* can make an informed decision.
[23:45:41] <NCommander> Ok, I think we discussed this to death, vote to move on?
[23:45:45] <juggs> I suggest a steering group to assess SpiderOak and possibly others. The output to be a review of the service and a suggested policy for adoption by the board.
[23:45:55] <NCommander> Bytram, bingo
[23:45:59] <Bytram> If something seems clear, we an make a recommendation, as well.
[23:46:05] <Bytram> s/an/can/
[23:46:48] <mrcoolbp> juggs: yeah, I suggest the 4 of us work together on that front, that way we can move this meeting along
[23:46:52] * NCommander nods
[23:46:55] <NCommander> Can we move on ? :-)
[23:46:58] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: I'll second
[23:46:59] <matt_> Aye!
[23:47:01] <mrcoolbp> Aye
[23:47:11] NCommander changed topic of #staff to: Would we be better off just selling "gold stars" than swag?
[23:47:30] * NCommander guesses this refers to some sort of badge or something on the site
[23:47:36] <mrcoolbp> yes
[23:47:46] <paulej72> new subs have a gold star
[23:47:46] <mrcoolbp> Basically, we've thought up all these different ways of using 3rd parties to work with that will take a significant cut from our fundraising efforts. Could we instead "sell" a gold star (or whatever)
[23:47:56] <audioguy> yes, for now, but both would be good.
[23:47:56] <mrcoolbp> well then a platinum one
[23:48:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> you'd better not cancel it before i get a beer stein at christmas
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[23:48:13] * matt_ cradles his precious coffee++ mug
[23:48:22] * NCommander needs to buy a coffee++ mug
[23:48:26] * mrcoolbp puts on his shirt with UID
[23:48:42] * NCommander really wishes he had UID -1
[23:48:57] <NCommander> Ok, on the serious front
[23:48:57] * TheMightyBuzzard is probably ordering one of those shirts tonight
[23:49:03] <matt_> i think the idea with swag (and affiliates, for that matter) is that if it's something you would likely get anyway (like a coffee mug or shirt), why not get the SN version and help the site.
[23:49:03] <Bytram> or sell a 'membership certificate' or the like for some period of time... i.e. a subscription, but comes with a nice-lettered, frame-able certificate?
[23:49:08] <paulej72> I think the costs for swag is already done. We spent may hours getting artwork ready. Anything we get now is porfit
[23:49:29] <NCommander> paulej72, I think what mrcoolbp meant was "in addition to"
[23:49:33] <mrcoolbp> Okay, I shouldn't have said "instead"
[23:49:45] <NCommander> so, my concern on this is we creating a "holier than thou" attitude
[23:49:47] <audioguy> Yes, I would not want to drop all the work done.
[23:49:48] <Bytram> from *my* perspective, I'm with paulej72; the work's put in, and it does NOT prevent us from offering other items.
[23:49:54] <mrcoolbp> right
[23:50:03] <NCommander> Granted, we have that with the sub star anyway
[23:50:04] <Bytram> NCommander: excellent point.
[23:50:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, we did that when we didn't start with 4digit uids
[23:50:14] <NCommander> But $20 USD/yr is pretty cheap
[23:50:15] <Bytram> just note it in the user's page?
[23:50:17] <matt_> but we could also do a tiered subscription, where the only thing you get at different tiers is different colors of stars?
[23:50:33] <NCommander> matt_, the community was really really unhappy with the idea of teired subscriptions
[23:50:37] <matt_> like nonprofits have different levels of donors.
[23:50:39] <juggs> I thought the question was around whether selling a ~virtual~ star would be considered the same as a direct donation.
[23:50:46] <NCommander> juggs, that too
[23:50:54] <Bytram> matt_: what NCommander said. and then some
[23:51:10] <matt_> NCommander, i think they mainly reacted to the things that the tiers would represent, and being forced to be identified as having paid, iirc.
[23:51:21] <mrcoolbp> yeah I agree
[23:51:27] * NCommander nods
[23:51:40] <LaminatorX> We could send postcards out for under a buck if we need a tangible asset provided to not be a donation.
[23:51:48] -!- Ethanol-fueled [Ethanol-fueled!~62b0c2de@cp88-216-234-862.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #staff
[23:51:56] * NCommander tends to send postcards when he goes abroad
[23:52:01] <Bytram> I sensed a number of different reasons, but the general feeling that I got was: "Do. Not. Want." -- seemed anonymous donations were preferred
[23:52:12] <mrcoolbp> LaminatorX: that would create "work" to do in meatspace
[23:52:18] <NCommander> We could always put me on the store, selling postcards from whatever remote places on Earth I am
[23:52:26] <NCommander> :-)
[23:52:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> there you go. officially NCommander-gathered postcard.
[23:52:46] <Bytram> "Soon to be a collector's item!"
[23:52:52] <NCommander> Make it a quality limited action
[23:52:56] <Bytram> Get. Yours. Noooow!
[23:52:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> or something anyway. shot glass, funny hat, something.
[23:53:06] <paulej72> get NCommander a SN post marker
[23:53:11] <NCommander> and charge $50 dollars for 10 :-P (given postage in some countries ...)
[23:53:16] <LaminatorX> "Where in the World is NCommander?"
[23:53:35] <Bytram> getting back to the question at hand. Does anyone see any problem with our selling swag?
[23:53:40] <NCommander> Or the NCommander Party Pack. NCommander shows up to your house with a keg
[23:53:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> oooh, picture of NCommander with a shoe on his head in various locations.
[23:53:53] <NCommander> Bytram, no, we had a lot of support for the idea when it was pitched
[23:53:54] <juggs> NCommander == Scarlet Pimpernel :D
[23:54:06] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: I suspect we need to consult eiter a lawyer or CPA on the crytpo-currency issue, maybe we could ask about selling "colored stars" as well?
[23:54:31] <Bytram> so, 'gold stars' would be in *addition* to, rather than *instead of*, swag?
[23:54:31] <NCommander> I think one of our very first "big purchases" will be a CPA from the money we get from the Known-To-Be OK stuff
[23:54:36] <NCommander> Bytram, in addition
[23:54:45] <NCommander> mrcoolbp misspoke
[23:54:48] <mrcoolbp> yes that was a mis-type on my part
[23:55:00] <matt_> mrcoolbp, if you want to give the users who just want to donate more options, maybe expanding the "unobtanium edition" line to more than just a keychain?
[23:55:04] <LaminatorX> I'm in favor of multiple vectors. Some will want anonymity, others will want cred, some will want swag, etc.
[23:55:10] <NCommander> LaminatorX, agreed
[23:55:17] <Bytram> LaminatorX++
[23:55:17] <Bender> karma - laminatorx: 5
[23:55:21] <NCommander> I also think there's money to be had from slashcode itself, especially now that UTF_8 actually works
[23:55:31] <juggs> How much are we shelling out to CPAs and lawyers to advise on this stuff that may not net a great deal at the end of the day?
[23:55:36] <mrcoolbp> matt_ possibly, but zazzle takes a big cut of that on the larger items
[23:55:36] <Bytram> is it not open-source?
[23:55:37] <NCommander> (hell, there might be an entire business on selling support to the code base)
[23:55:45] <NCommander> juggs, well, CPA is kinda essential come tax time
[23:56:00] <mrcoolbp> ^^
[23:56:07] <juggs> ok
[23:56:08] <NCommander> so that one isn't money down the hole ... so to speak
[23:56:12] <NCommander> *cough*
[23:56:29] * Bytram hands NCommander a throat lozenge
[23:56:31] <NCommander> For stuff like this, its mostly all CPA
[23:56:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, you'll likely need to pay someone if you're selling their admin/coding chops unless you're volunteering
[23:56:37] <mrcoolbp> good time for an update on the swag?
[23:56:46] -!- prospectacle [prospectacle!~b4c880f7@180.200.jji.ihy] has joined #staff
[23:56:50] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, that's a future discussion item
[23:56:59] <Bytram> ok, 'gold star'?
[23:57:00] <juggs> we could pimp TheMightyBuzzard out for profit!
[23:57:03] <NCommander> I actually am working on drafting our "next six months" plan in email, mrcoolbp has seen the start of a draft
[23:57:04] <audioguy> The simple truth is that the deck is stacked against small businesses and startups, and most do a little bending of the rules initially. If you obsess too much over this tuff it will kill you.
[23:57:09] <mrcoolbp> yes
[23:57:12] <NCommander> juggs, illegal in the states unless he lives in Rhode Island
[23:57:12] * TheMightyBuzzard puts on his hot pants
[23:57:43] <juggs> NCommander, pimp out for coding work :P
[23:57:43] <matt_> audioguy, true, although most don't say that on a logged channel ;)
[23:57:43] <LaminatorX> While it's OSS, there's a fair amount of know how required to get it running. That's where the value we could provide lies.
[23:57:44] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: can I provide a quick update on the swag store?
[23:57:45] <NCommander> audioguy, indeed
[23:57:49] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, the floor is yours
[23:57:54] <mrcoolbp> okay:
[23:57:59] <mrcoolbp> The store is ready to "launch", we are just waiting on the executive order. The link has been released to: [all staff memebers] and [a 'lucky' few that happened to be around on IRC recently].
[23:58:04] <mrcoolbp> Despite that pool of approximately 30 people, we've received only *one* order and very little feedback (e.g. Pricing, Quality, Store graphics and navigation, Selection of products, etc.)
[23:58:12] <mrcoolbp> I realize there was a major hiccup in announcing the store "Alpha/Test launch" to staff, then saying "Wait don't order yet!" and then re-launcing the Alpha/Test and this may have created some "mistrust/disintrest" among staff, that may be a factor.
[23:58:21] <mrcoolbp> Nevertheless, I get the impression that this will be a minor source of revenue. Subsequently, I doubt it will significatly help SoylentNews support it self financially. I hope to be proven wrong on this.
[23:58:28] <mrcoolbp> Lastly, one person suggested that the royalty percentage should be close to 50% for most items. The thinking here: the main idea is to help support us financially, so the premium prices are justfied. However, I personally think this will discourage sales (i.e. our cheapest mug would be $28.95). I'm open to other opinions though.
[23:58:33] <audioguy> IF the goverment does not like us selling gold stars they will tell us, we will say oops, sorry, and that is that. they don't give a shit about us unles we A don't pay out taxes, B do something to blantent and public.
[23:58:33] <mrcoolbp> (that's it)
[23:59:27] <Bytram> mrcoolbp: thanks to you and juggs (and any others I forgot) for putting this all together.
[23:59:29] <audioguy> I am not suggestimng anything specific. :-)
[23:59:38] <Bytram> I was waiting for the all clear to know when it was ready.
[23:59:49] <mrcoolbp> thank you sir.