#staff | Logs for 2014-07-17

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[00:00:27] <mrcoolbp> NCommander, matt_: it's true that we don't currently have a revenue stream, but we do have plans in place to start that going
[00:00:31] <Bytram> NCommander: I'm not so sure about how long it would take; between subscriptions and swag, we could be in the black in a few weeks.
[00:00:52] <matt_> normally this type of agreement is done within 2-3 days of incorporation :/
[00:01:05] <Bytram> NOTE: *could* not necessarily *will*.
[00:01:12] <matt_> to eliminate any possibility that the stock has increased in value between incorporation and issuance.
[00:01:27] <matt_> NCommander, when can you talk with your accountant?
[00:01:53] <NCommander> probably this week
[00:02:27] <matt_> ok. i know that you're planning a trip soon, do you think it would be realistic to try to sqeeze in a meeting before then, at least on this issue?
[00:02:45] <NCommander> My concern with issuing stock of any kind is it means that part of the corporation isn't owned by itself. Lets say a year from now, we're in the black you have got stock though for the site
[00:03:07] <NCommander> And then hit a personal issue like bankruptecy and sell assets to a third part :-P
[00:03:08] <Bytram> can the board agree now to have the corporation issue stock, contingent on NCommander's discussion with his accountant and acceptance of it?
[00:03:27] <matt_> NCommander, oh, this is a key point. The Board of Directors has to approve all transfers of stock.
[00:03:28] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: I don't beleive they can be sold to a third party
[00:03:34] <mrcoolbp> ah that
[00:03:37] <matt_> NCommander, so you're not allowed to sell it without board approval.
[00:03:43] <matt_> that's in our bylaws.
[00:03:58] <NCommander> ALright
[00:04:15] <NCommander> I'm willing to approve a tentative approval to make sure I'm not upsetting a legal mess
[00:04:29] * NCommander hopes that made sense
[00:04:31] <matt_> approve a tentative approval :?
[00:04:32] <paulej72> so what happens if someone does sell it. is the stock void?
[00:04:43] <matt_> paulej72, the sale is null and void.
[00:04:50] <paulej72> ok
[00:04:51] -!- SirFinkus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
[00:05:08] <NCommander> matt_, basically, make it hinge on me talking taxes w/ my personal accountent, and if he doesn't see any issues for my person issue, ACK
[00:05:25] <juggs> could a majority of board members cause the bylaw that forbids the sale of stock to be removed?
[00:05:33] <matt_> ok. i can adjust my pre-prepared voting language to that effect.
[00:05:43] <matt_> juggs, yes.
[00:05:45] <NCommander> juggs, yes
[00:05:46] <mrcoolbp> juggs: yes
[00:05:55] <NCommander> wow, echo
[00:06:03] <juggs> ha
[00:06:07] <juggs> I hear ya!
[00:06:27] <matt_> ok, please stand by for a vote. of course, let me know if you have any questions/issues with the following language.
[00:06:34] <matt_> this is a long one :)
[00:06:45] <matt_> All those in favor of authorizing the officers of the Corporation to sell and issue 50,000 shares of the Corporation's Common Stock to Michael Casadevall at a purchase price of $0.10 per share, payable in cash, or by any other form of consideration permitted by applicable law, including the contribution of tangible property, and authorizing the officers of the Corporation to sell and issue 50,000 shares of the Corporation's Common Stock to Matt Ang
[00:06:49] <matt_> payable in cash, or by any other form of consideration permitted by applicable law, including the contribution of tangible property, and resolving that the form of the Founder's Common Stock Subscription Agreement be, and hereby is, adopted, ratified and approved, and that the sale and issuance of Common Stock to each of the above named persons shall be conditioned upon the receipt by the Corporation of (a) the purchase price for said stock and (b)
[00:06:53] <matt_> Agreement, including executed copies of any and all documents attached thereto as exhibits, and that the officers of the Corporation be, and each of them hereby is, authorized and directed, for and on behalf of the Corporation, to take such further action and execute such additional documents as each may deem necessary or appropriate to carry out the purposes of this resolution:
[00:07:44] <mrcoolbp> matt_ are we getting message truncation again?
[00:07:49] <mattie_p> looks like you missed a few words in there
[00:07:55] <matt_> mrcoolbp, i think that came through.
[00:08:04] <matt_> mattie_p, let me triple-check.
[00:08:05] <mattie_p> matt_: your name didn't
[00:08:09] <Bytram> first paragraph, your name is incomplete
[00:08:25] <Bytram> matt_: ^^
[00:08:28] <paulej72> flood control
[00:08:39] <matt_> *sigh
[00:08:40] * juggs quickly files a change of name to Matt Ang
[00:08:46] <juggs> :D
[00:08:49] <matt_> ok, trying again :)
[00:09:10] <paulej72> paste in smaller chunks
[00:09:16] <NCommander> matt_, pastebin.com or something similar is your friend
[00:09:19] <paulej72> submit between each
[00:09:37] <matt_> All those in favor of authorizing the officers of the Corporation to sell and issue 50,000 shares of the Corporation's Common Stock to Michael Casadevall at a purchase price of $0.10 per share, payable in cash, or by any other form of consideration permitted by applicable law, including the
[00:09:44] <matt_> contribution of tangible property, and authorizing the officers of the Corporation to sell and issue 50,000 shares of the Corporation's Common Stock to Matt Angel at a purchase price of $0.10 per share,
[00:09:50] <matt_> payable in cash, or by any other form of consideration permitted by applicable law, including the contribution of tangible property, and resolving that the form of the Founder's Common Stock Subscription Agreement be, and hereby is, adopted, ratified and approved, and that the sale and
[00:11:24] -!- matt__ [matt__!~4c77e8d9@f-09-442-560-040.hsd9.ma.comcast.net] has joined #staff
[00:11:35] <matt__> Agreement, including executed copies of any and all documents attached thereto as exhibits, and that the officers of the Corporation be, and each of them hereby is, authorized and directed, for and on behalf of the Corporation, to take such further action and execute such additional
[00:11:40] <matt__> documents as each may deem necessary or appropriate to carry out the purposes of this resolution:
[00:12:15] <paulej72> .op
[00:12:15] -!- mode/#staff [+o paulej72] by juggler
[00:12:34] <matt__> paulej72, i was flood-controlled :(
[00:12:43] <NCommander> matt_, pastebin is your friend, seriously
[00:12:46] <xlefay> matt__, hence why pastebin is suggested :)
[00:12:47] <NCommander> Its easier to read
[00:12:48] <juggs> missed a bit again around here "issuance of Common Stock to each of the above named persons shall be conditioned upon the receipt by the Corporation of (a) the purchase price for said stock and (b)"
[00:12:49] <mrcoolbp> .voice matt__
[00:12:49] -!- mode/#staff [+v matt__] by juggler
[00:13:00] <matt__> NCommander, ack. ok, pastebin next time, definitely!
[00:13:29] <matt__> anyway, i think everyone has the jist of it :)
[00:13:32] <NCommander> matt__, 50k shared is > what either of us owe though
[00:13:36] <NCommander> *shares
[00:13:38] <matt__> so, we can just do the final text over email.
[00:13:49] <matt__> NCommander, it's at $0.10 per share.
[00:14:01] <NCommander> 50000*.10 == 5000
[00:14:05] -!- matt_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[00:14:05] <juggs> $5K each?
[00:14:07] <matt__> NCommander, we have to value our "Tangible and Intangible Property" in a way that the IRS, etc. will accept.
[00:14:11] <mattie_p> up to 50,000 shares are authorized to be sold, don't have to sell them all
[00:14:19] <NCommander> oh
[00:14:19] <matt__> so, for example, your contributions to date add up to a total value of $5000.
[00:15:01] matt__ is now known as matt_
[00:15:10] -!- matt_ has quit [Changing host]
[00:15:10] -!- matt_ [matt_!~4c77e8d9@Soylent/Staff/Management] has joined #staff
[00:15:10] -!- mode/#staff [+v matt_] by irc.sylnt.us
[00:15:10] -!- mode/#staff [-v matt_] by juggler
[00:15:26] <mrcoolbp> .voice matt_
[00:15:26] -!- mode/#staff [+v matt_] by juggler
[00:15:48] <matt_> Ok, so the last remaining step to get the Corporation officially set up is: I will collect all of the resolutions adopted by the board so far, including language for amending the Bylaws to allow meetings on IRC, and put together a "Unanimous Written Consent of the Board of Directors" document, which the three of us should sign.
[00:16:18] <mrcoolbp> okay
[00:16:24] <NCommander> k
[00:16:26] <matt_> Finally, Item 4: Any other business (community involvement in corporate governance, SN policies and procedures manual, including: staff appointment & authority, account and password management, individual team policy, policy on retaining records, etc.).
[00:16:37] <matt_> NCommander, how's your incorporation post going?
[00:17:20] <matt_> i ask, because i think that it would be nice to post the bylaws, etc. on the wiki, so that everyone can see them...
[00:17:50] <Bytram> matt_: point of order? was there a vote taken on the issuance of common stock?
[00:17:58] <mrcoolbp> negative
[00:18:10] <matt_> Bytram, due to technical issues, we will go with an email vote for that one, i think.
[00:18:22] <NCommander> matt_, its going very slowly
[00:18:30] <NCommander> I got about a 1/3rd through it
[00:18:30] <matt_> Bytram, since it didn't seem that there were any questions (unless i missed any).
[00:18:43] -!- mode/#staff [-v bryan] by juggler
[00:18:55] <Bytram> matt_: okay, thanks.
[00:19:42] <matt_> NCommander, also at the last meeting we had mentioned that your post would be a geat place to ask the community specifically how they would like to be involved in the governance of SoylentNews PBC.
[00:20:12] <mrcoolbp> yes, please throw that in there somewhere
[00:20:17] <matt_> let us know if you need any help with that, ok?
[00:20:32] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, its in there
[00:20:35] <NCommander> alright
[00:20:36] <mrcoolbp> great
[00:20:37] <matt_> Next is the SN policies and procedures manual.
[00:20:38] <NCommander> *already
[00:20:43] <mrcoolbp> On the Policy manual I have an update
[00:21:14] <mrcoolbp> Janrinok and I started drafting an SN Policy manual based on conversations with LaminatorX and matt_
[00:21:35] <mrcoolbp> once we have something readable, the plan is to circulate on the staff list for suggestions and criticisms
[00:22:08] <mrcoolbp> matt_ can you elaborate on "staff appointment & authority
[00:22:10] <mrcoolbp> ?
[00:22:43] <matt_> mrcoolbp, actually, i think that you probably already have that in there. basically, how does someone become "staff", and what authority do staff have.
[00:22:59] <mrcoolbp> oh, part of the policy manual got it
[00:23:00] <mrcoolbp> okay
[00:23:03] <mrcoolbp> account and password management: We have done a decent job of duplicating privledges and passwords on various accounts
[00:23:15] <mrcoolbp> but I think we need to do a once over on each account
[00:23:28] <mrcoolbp> I can work with paulej72 on making sure that is done
[00:23:43] <mrcoolbp> I think 3 people should be able to access each system
[00:24:09] <mrcoolbp> but we had discussed locking the keys in a container and needing mulitple people to unlock (food for thought)
[00:24:30] <matt_> nice. it sounds like you have a good grip on the issue. the question of SN's policy on retaining records came up recently, as well.
[00:24:35] <paulej72> would like it to be 3 qualified people, but we will tak what we can get
[00:24:39] <Bytram> mrcoolbp: do we have *one* place which itemizes *all* the (computer) accounts we have? Each system (e.g. Boron), service, DNS entries, *everything*?
[00:24:42] <mrcoolbp> paulej72: well said
[00:24:53] <mrcoolbp> Bytram, not compiled, I'll note that
[00:25:12] <Bytram> great! thank you.
[00:25:27] <xlefay> We can certainly get records from LDAP, as for local accounts - that'll require some inventorisation.
[00:25:28] <Bytram> might check with xlefay who has a pretty good list from setting up icinga, too.
[00:25:33] <mrcoolbp> matt_ that's all I have for now on that item, is now a good time to bring up a point from a staff memeber who couldn't make it?
[00:25:48] <mrcoolbp> Bytram: noted, thank you!
[00:26:10] <matt_> mrcoolbp, yes! we have reached the end of the agenda, so let's open the floor.
[00:26:22] <mrcoolbp> okay
[00:26:31] <mrcoolbp> <+mechanicjay> I'm wondering about regular meetings, their frequency and I'd like to see 1 weeks notice before future meetings. While that wont' be an idea time, it does give folks a chance to arrange their schedules accordingly.
[00:26:31] <mrcoolbp> <+mechanicjay> Also, now that incorporation has started, what are the responsibilities of regular old staff folks. Does the relationship between a volunteer staff person and the corporation get formalized at some point?
[00:26:34] * juggs falls into the shark pool beneath the now open floor!
[00:26:51] <mrcoolbp> idea = ideal I think
[00:27:18] <mrcoolbp> the second one I'll add to my SN policy manual draft
[00:27:38] <mrcoolbp> I have "a template for that"
[00:27:41] * mrcoolbp winks at matt)
[00:27:43] <matt_> mrcoolbp, yes, the second one sounds like it would be perfect for the policy draft.
[00:27:45] <matt_> =)
[00:28:14] <mrcoolbp> matt_ is one week notice a good goal to shoot for?
[00:28:29] <matt_> mrcoolbp, as for the first one, it's also related to the policy draft, as it should be made clear that the board meetings are different than the staff meetings, i think.
[00:28:32] * mrcoolbp notes 2 days is all that is required
[00:28:52] <mrcoolbp> matt_ if you want I can add a distiction to the manual
[00:29:03] <matt_> mrcoolbp, this also gets to the issue of electing additional directors, which we can do at any time.
[00:29:11] <matt_> mrcoolbp, yes please.
[00:29:13] <mrcoolbp> ah yes, nice segway
[00:29:17] <mrcoolbp> matt_ noted
[00:29:37] <matt_> also, i forgot one last item that was added to the agenda: discuss a standard format for board meetings
[00:29:50] <mrcoolbp> okay, so let's take those one at a time
[00:30:13] <mrcoolbp> first, are there any board positions that we feel should be fulfilled?
[00:30:24] <mrcoolbp> matt_ could you recap the common unfilled positions?
[00:30:33] <xlefay> oops, a bit too late, but... Additionally, when meetings are made in advance, people can easily - suggest topics/items ahead of time.
[00:30:47] <matt_> mrcoolbp, well there are really two questions there: do we want to elect additional Directors, and do we want to appoint additional officers.
[00:31:06] <mrcoolbp> matt_ can you elaborate on the difference?
[00:31:27] <Bytram> I'd appreciate a refresher, too.
[00:31:32] <matt_> xlefay, actually, wouldn't it be good if there were a wiki where people could raise issues, so that we would be sure to bring them up at the next meeting, whenever that meeting is?
[00:31:53] <mrcoolbp> matt_ that's a great idea
[00:31:55] <mattie_p> officers are "official" staff of the corporation, board members vote in these meetings. They do not necessarily overlap, although right now they do
[00:31:58] <xlefay> matt_, that's a great idea!
[00:32:31] <Bytram> how would/could they be different?
[00:32:41] <matt_> mrcoolbp, ok. so directors are directors (they take votes at board meetings, and the board has general responsibility for the corporation), while the officers are President, CEO, Treasurer, Secretary, and any number of Vice Presidents, Assistant Treasurers, Assistant Secretaries, etc., each of whom has specific duties.
[00:32:57] <paulej72> do we want team leaders to be board members?
[00:33:05] <matt_> mattie_p, exactly!
[00:33:08] <mrcoolbp> NCommander ^^
[00:34:06] <NCommander> paulej72, dev, Ieditoral, community, IRC?
[00:34:07] <mattie_p> officers run the day to day business of the corporation. board members control the overall direction and appoint officers, but do not make day-to-day operational business decisions
[00:34:08] <matt_> i would suggest that the officers should be given maximum leeway to discharge their duties, and that the board only step in on specific issues if there is a credible legal or financial issue.
[00:34:22] <NCommander> ack on what matt_ says
[00:34:32] <mattie_p> so each of the three board members currently has two hats, if you will
[00:34:43] <mrcoolbp> matt_ I ACK that as well
[00:35:17] <paulej72> yes NCommander
[00:35:35] <juggs> ack as in dislike?
[00:35:44] <xlefay> ack as in acknowledge I assume
[00:35:45] <mattie_p> ack = acknowledge
[00:35:50] <juggs> ty
[00:35:53] <Bytram> NCommander: and qa, too?
[00:35:53] <matt_> i would also suggest that the board be kept to a reasonable size to facilitate scheduling, discussion, and voting.
[00:36:09] <NCommander> Bytram, yes, but I also don't want to overcrowd the board
[00:36:19] <Bytram> NCommander: noted.
[00:36:39] <NCommander> I recommend we toss this on chillax or the mailing list, and bring it back up next meeting
[00:36:54] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: agreed
[00:36:54] <Bytram> matt_: in your experience, how large is "too big"?
[00:36:55] <paulej72> and should the board confirm the current team structure or do a restructure if we do make team leaders booard members
[00:37:20] <mrcoolbp> paulej72: we don't have an outline for the structure in any formal means
[00:37:32] <mrcoolbp> so I wouldn't feel right confirming that
[00:37:56] <matt_> Bytram, in the very early stages (e.g., now), it is helpful to keep it to 3, just to keep things moving forward. Pretty soon, i would imagine it could/should be increased, probably to a maximum of 5-ish.
[00:38:46] <juggs> I d/conned not sure if I missed anything :(
[00:38:57] <Bytram> matt_: thanks. My experience has been that many more than 6 or so and things take much longer to decide. thanks for the confirmation.
[00:39:01] <mrcoolbp> juggs: check the log after
[00:40:04] <matt_> Bytram, agreed. Also, there is a lot on the agenda in these early days, but pretty soon i would expect board meetings to need to happen less frequently, and have fewer major issues to discuss.
[00:40:28] <mrcoolbp> okay, so should we move on to the Format for Board Meetings on IRC?
[00:41:17] <matt_> ok. any thoughts?
[00:41:28] <Bytram> should we discuss that here, and now, or just agree we need one and work itout later?
[00:41:52] <Bytram> the details of the IRC board meeting, that is
[00:41:56] <mrcoolbp> maybe get someone on a task force that could propose something for another meeting?
[00:42:31] <Bytram> I'll take that.
[00:42:45] <mrcoolbp> Bytram: thanks, I'd suggest working with xlefay
[00:42:51] <mrcoolbp> okay, anything else?
[00:42:54] <mrcoolbp> did we miss anything?
[00:43:52] <Bytram> I can't think of anything off-hand.
[00:44:11] <matt_> i think that's it. so my tasks (aside from investigating pastebin) are: draft and send a "Unanimous Written Consent of the Board of Directors" that includes the proposed amendment to the bylaws, and everything else that has been decided so far.
[00:44:29] <NCommander> Mine are bang on the subscription code, and call accountent
[00:45:24] <mrcoolbp> mine are the policy manual and the store
[00:45:27] <Bytram> I'll work on a draft format for holding Board Meeting discussions on IRC.
[00:45:30] * mrcoolbp checks notes
[00:45:51] <matt_> NCommander, also to finish up your incorporation post?
[00:45:52] <mrcoolbp> I think that's it
[00:46:00] <NCommander> oh that too
[00:46:07] <NCommander> Beyond that, anything else, or can we close this ot?
[00:46:12] * NCommander really kinda needs to lie down :-/
[00:46:15] <matt_> All those in favor of adjourning?
[00:46:26] <Bytram> NCommander: I can help with the incorporation post
[00:46:28] <NCommander> aye
[00:46:29] <mrcoolbp> Aye!
[00:46:30] <matt_> Aye!
[00:46:32] <matt_> This Meeting of the Board of Directors of SoylentNews PBC stands adjourned!
[00:46:35] <NCommander> Bytram, I'll take you up to that tomorrow
[00:46:37] * NCommander goes to die
[00:46:49] <NCommander> DO not disturb for at least 12 hours until penality of having to edit my novels
[00:46:53] <Bytram> NCommander: you got it.
[00:46:54] <NCommander> *under
[00:47:00] <xlefay> !quote NCommander
[00:47:00] <Bender> Quote 0 - <NCommander> mattie_p, I dunno, are you going to mail me an explosive device if I have you edit ANOTHER 3k novel?
[00:47:04] <Bender> Also in quotes: 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 35, 37, 42, 43, 46, 52, 53, 54, 55, 58, 61, 62, 66, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 89, 90, 91, 93, 95, 98, 99, 101, 102, 110, 111, 112, 114, 118, 119
[00:47:05] <xlefay> dammit........ was to late!
[00:47:08] * NCommander knows effective threats
[00:47:10] <NCommander> :-)
[00:47:10] <xlefay> and it should've been a !grab]
[00:47:12] <xlefay> lol!
[00:47:33] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: yeah you missed a !grab on that one
[00:47:52] <mrcoolbp> Okay, I have 10 minutes before I have to run off to another engagement
[00:48:01] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: let's touch base real quick
[00:48:03] <xlefay> Indeed I did, oh well, I'm sure there'll be plenty of more of such threats to go around of
[00:48:09] <xlefay> mrcoolbp, mind if we do so tomorrow?
[00:48:13] <NCommander> Effective management is like effective torture, you need to use just the right amount
[00:48:19] <xlefay> It's almost 3 am & I really missed my regular schedule hah
[00:48:21] <xlefay> !grab NCommander
[00:48:21] <Bender> Added quote 122
[00:48:22] <paulej72> xlefay: we can edit the quotes file directly :)
[00:48:32] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: that's fine, sI have it noted that I should email you regarding the task force
[00:48:45] <xlefay> paulej72, that's true! But then there's the risk of liking editing them too much!
[00:48:49] <prospectacle> NCommander, and often simply the threat of management is enough to get the desired results.
[00:49:01] <xlefay> Before you know it, there are all sorts of sentences in there that NCommander never said!
[00:49:04] <xlefay> mrcoolbp, sounds good :)
[00:49:07] <Bytram> thanks everyone for showing up and participating... it's quite a community we have here!
[00:49:15] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: I'll work something up tomorrow
[00:49:30] <NCommander> I like that xlefay is back, it makes it that much easier to keep dominance on the quotes database
[00:49:33] <xlefay> mrcoolbp, that's great, I'm looking forward to that e-mail.
[00:49:38] <xlefay> !grab NCommander
[00:49:38] <Bender> Added quote 123
[00:49:40] <xlefay> Dammit...
[00:49:41] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: will you be able to meetup on IRC tomorrow as well?
[00:49:51] <Bytram> xlefay: NCommander needs sleep... can you boot him off irc?
[00:49:52] <xlefay> you make it way, to difficult for me NOT to !grab them.
[00:49:56] <NCommander> Ok, all seriousness
[00:49:59] <NCommander> I need sleep
[00:50:16] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: have a good rest
[00:50:16] <NCommander> I'm going AFK for awhile. I'd say for the night, but Alaska doesn't have those
[00:50:18] <NCommander> (yet)
[00:50:19] <Bytram> NCommander: g'night! thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[00:50:21] <xlefay> mrcoolbp, probably, but I won't be around at all times, like I pretty much was today. Best to schedule via e-mail.
[00:50:25] <NCommander> Bytram, what night :-P
[00:50:31] * NCommander notes I haven't seen stars in a month
[00:50:32] <xlefay> NCommander, good night. Get some proper sleep!
[00:50:38] <NCommander> Alaska. Is. AWESOMENESS.
[00:50:48] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: email it is then
[00:50:58] <paulej72> how many daylight hours right now NCommander
[00:50:59] * Bytram rummages around for some window shades to ship to NCommander
[00:51:42] <paulej72> tape black trashbags to the windows. I did that wen I worked night shift
[00:51:49] <xlefay> Bytram, and here I thought, we were simply going to crane down a wall of steel to keep him in!
[00:51:50] * Bytram find a couple old sheets and thumb tacks
[00:52:12] <paulej72> must be 100% light blocking
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[00:52:32] <Bytram> excellent idea! never tried that before!
[00:52:39] <paulej72> can of black latex paint works well too ;)
[00:52:46] <Bytram> okay all, I'm calling it a night, too.
[00:52:48] <mrcoolbp> paulej72: any way you could assist with the "ensuring duplication of privliges on all systems" task?
[00:53:01] <Bytram> thanks everyone for everything!!
[00:53:20] <paulej72> sure, but probably not fully until the weekend
[00:53:30] <mrcoolbp> Bytram: thanks for your participation
[00:53:38] <Bytram> hth! same to you!
[00:53:44] <mrcoolbp> paulej72: oh definitely, I have to run off in a few minutes actually
[00:53:48] Bytram is now known as Bytram|away
[00:54:09] <Bytram|away> oh, wait a minute....
[00:55:22] <Bytram|away> mrcoolbp: do we have a place on the wiki for us to keep a log of board meetings? I'm thinking a primary page with date/time and a link, and then have child pages with a snapshot of the IRC logs.
[00:55:46] <mrcoolbp> yes, sec
[00:55:52] <matt_> http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[00:55:59] <matt_> Bytram|away ^
[00:56:11] <mrcoolbp> http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[00:56:17] <mrcoolbp> too slow = (
[00:56:17] * Bytram|away scurries over to loook
[00:56:59] <matt_> it's linked from the front page of the wiki too :)
[00:57:09] <Bytram|away> do we want it in chronological order (oldest at the bottom)?
[00:57:22] <mrcoolbp> okay, well I'm going to take off too, thanks everyone! Mattie_p, paulej72, matt_, xlefay, juggs, and everyone else
[00:57:22] <Bytram|away> justlike following IRC.
[00:57:50] <Bytram|away> mrcoolbp: thanks a bunch! have a good one!
[00:57:55] <mrcoolbp> you too
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[00:58:22] <paulej72> see ya mrcoolbp and others who are leaving
[00:58:25] <Bytram|away> matt_: thanks for sharing your coporate experience with us "newbies" =)
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[01:00:07] <matt_> Bytram|away, it is my pleasure :) this is a lot of fun!
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[01:55:47] -!- mode/#staff [+v Bytram|away] by juggler
[01:57:12] <Bytram|away> I've got a first try at the minutes, but I can't save them to the wiki...
[01:57:15] <Bytram|away> http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[01:57:22] <Bytram|away> You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason:
[01:57:23] <Bytram|away> This page has been protected to prevent editing or other actions.
[01:58:33] <Bytram|away> mrcoolbp: ^^^ are you still here?
[01:59:01] <Bytram|away> cosurgi: ping?
[02:00:20] <Bytram|away> paulej72: ping?
[02:01:00] <paulej72> I don't have admin privs on the wiki
[02:01:16] <Bytram|away> ok, thanks for the quick reply!
[02:01:32] <Bytram|away> I looked at: http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[02:01:50] <paulej72> about the only thing I don't have them on
[02:02:09] <Bytram|away> strange.
[02:03:32] <Bytram|away> mattie_p: ping?
[02:03:45] <mattie_p> pong
[02:03:53] <mattie_p> what's up, Bytram|away?
[02:03:56] <Bytram|away> how's your wiki privs?
[02:04:02] <mattie_p> pretty good last I heard
[02:04:20] <Bytram|away> I've got a first try at the board meeting minutes, but it won't let me post it...
[02:04:31] <Bytram|away> http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[02:04:44] <Bytram|away> You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason:
[02:04:44] <Bytram|away> This page has been protected to prevent editing or other actions.
[02:05:04] <Bytram|away> can you please fix my privs so I can post the meeting minutes?
[02:05:21] <mattie_p> let me see if I can do that
[02:05:31] <Bytram|away> much obliged! thanks!!!!!
[02:08:03] <mattie_p> you Martyb on the wiki?
[02:08:20] <Bytram|away> hmmm, good question! hold on a sec
[02:08:38] <Bytram|away> yup that's me!
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[02:13:45] <mattie_p> Bytram: I can't seem to do that
[02:14:03] <mattie_p> apparently I need bureaucrat rights, I'm only an admin so I can't change your group membership
[02:14:33] <Bytram|away> interesting...
[02:14:55] <Bytram|away> plan B... can *you* update that page? http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[02:15:13] <Bytram|away> if so, I could e-mail you my text to paste in there for me.
[02:15:15] <mattie_p> I can
[02:15:20] <Bytram|away> !woop
[02:15:20] <Bender> woop woop woop (\/) (;,,;) (\/)
[02:15:31] <Bytram|away> pm me your email addy?
[02:27:02] <Bytram|away> okay, Board of Director's meeting's minutes are up; many thanks to mattie_p for the assist!
[02:27:24] <mattie_p> anytime
[02:28:38] <Bytram|away> Meeting's Minutes are at: http://wiki.soylentnews.org
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[02:55:26] -!- mode/#staff [+v matt_] by juggler
[02:56:01] <matt_> mattie_p, hi! did you edit the wiki for the minutes from today's meeting?
[03:01:17] <juggs> matt_, I believe martyb put them together and mattie_p added them to the wiki as martyb does not have the relevant permission to do so.
[03:01:29] <matt_> mattie_p, it looks like you just added 5 lines from before the meeting, but i'm not sure as it crashes when i try to diff it with the original version that i posted, probably because it's too big :)
[03:01:50] <matt_> juggs, hmm, maybe they didn't realize that that page already existed :/
[03:06:00] <juggs> matt_, possibly - it certainly wasn't showing for me (not logged in at the time) before mattie_p posted up there. I was only seeing the link to the previous meeting. I'm not all that familiar with wiki tbh., would the "Move=Allow only administrators" make it invisible to non admins?
[03:07:41] <matt_> juggs, if you click on "View history" in that page, can you see the original version that i created?
[03:09:44] <matt_> anyway, no biggie. i'll check with them later.
[03:11:46] <juggs> matt_, yep I can see it via History. It just wasn't showing on http://wiki.soylentnews.org at the time. But I'm on a mobile BB connection and get weird caching symptoms sometimes - so may have been that.
[03:31:07] <mattie_p> matt_ if you are still here, martyb had me add some stuff. He knew the page was there but wanted some more lines added
[03:32:51] <mattie_p> if you prefer I'll leave it be next time
[03:33:16] <mattie_p> I think there was some formatting and other stuff throughout he did as well
[03:33:28] <matt_> mattie_p, oh, ok. i couldn't tell, as it won't let me diff it.
[03:33:49] <mattie_p> yeah, I tried doing that as well and got the same results you did, matt_
[03:34:21] <mattie_p> but before I posted I looked at some random lines throughout and didn't see differences in content so I posted the additions
[03:35:05] <matt_> mattie_p, looking closer, it looks like he may have taken out some of the notifications of people joining and leaving...
[03:35:29] <mattie_p> thats probably it then
[03:35:55] <juggs> maybe he has them disabled in his client... I tend to do that in xchat for busy channels
[03:36:26] <matt_> anyway, i'll double check with him the next time i see him. obviously, no big deal, although it would probably be good to have a standard procedure since it is basically the official record.
[03:37:14] <mattie_p> those weren't the only changes though, as my edit added 1019 bytes
[03:37:31] <juggs> it's a conspiracy!! :D
[03:37:44] <matt_> yeah, i will ask him about that too. i see about 5 more lines at the beginning, but there must be more throughout.
[03:38:16] <juggs> Loggie logs are there too for reference I guess
[03:38:22] <juggs> thanks
[03:38:28] <matt_> juggs, that's where i got my version from :)
[03:39:46] <juggs> but, but... how do we know we can trust Loggie?? Perhaps we need a second independent logger too :D I suppose this is one of the challenges of board meetings that are not face to face.
[03:40:40] <mattie_p> I've got my logs, many others will who were in the channel will have them as well
[03:40:46] <matt_> juggs, well, as fascinating as this discussion of meeting minutes is, i suddenly have the overwhelming urge to go to sleep :)
[03:40:58] <mattie_p> also, welcome to staff, juggs!
[03:42:01] <matt_> juggs, mattie_p, i will see you later. thanks again for all your efforts!
[03:42:18] <mattie_p> thank you, matt_
[03:42:33] <mattie_p> look forward to meeting you in person if I get the chance
[03:43:04] <juggs> no probs.
[03:43:46] <matt_> mattie_p, me too. you will know it is me by all of the SN swag I will be wearing :)
[03:43:58] * juggs checks settings, oh I have logs turned on too
[03:44:02] <mattie_p> I'll be carrying the coffee++ mug
[03:44:56] * juggs plots devious money laundering scheme by way of SN swag purchases... hmm, nah, perhaps not.
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[03:46:19] <juggs> mattie_p, good to see you back btw
[03:46:32] <mattie_p> thanks, juggs, its good to be back
[03:50:32] <juggs> good to see xlefay appears to be on the mend too :) I need to pick his brain at some point.
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[13:37:01] Bytram|away is now known as Bytram
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[14:06:13] <matt_> Bytram, good morning!
[14:06:29] <Bytram> matt_: g'morning!
[14:06:37] <Bytram> sry, but afk, back in 5min
[14:06:49] <Bytram> (too much coffee etc)
[14:07:08] <matt_> Bytram, k. Not sure if you read the scrollback in this channel, but there was a little discussion/confusion over the minutes...
[14:10:33] <Bytram> back
[14:10:40] <Bytram> no, I hadn't.
[14:10:50] <Bytram> I don't have scrollback; will have to check the logs.
[14:11:01] <Bytram> brb
[14:12:31] <matt_> so, basically, i posted the minutes and locked them against editing as per our standard procedure, since they are our official record for the time being. then i saw that mattie edited them an hour later, with no description of what was changed, and we can't diff them because they're too big ;)
[14:12:57] <Bytram> strange!
[14:13:11] <xlefay> Aah. Time to move to a wiki powered by git!
[14:13:56] <Bytram> they weren't there when I created the log; I couldn't edit, asked for help (see logs) and mattie had privs to put them in and did it for me.
[14:13:59] <LaminatorX> Cant diff them?
[14:14:31] <matt_> LaminatorX, it crashed for both mattie and myself when we tried. we assumed it was because of their length. i'll try again now.
[14:15:12] <xlefay> That's odd. MediaWiki should be doing that work server-side and simply present a small diff, instead a full diff. Unless, you changed, every line.
[14:15:27] <matt_> ...and, crash!
[14:15:31] <xlefay> link?
[14:15:35] <Bytram> xlefay: it's entirely possible that every line was different. :/
[14:15:45] <matt_> http 500 internal server error.
[14:15:55] <xlefay> matt_, can you give me the link to said page?
[14:16:13] <matt_> http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[14:16:21] <LaminatorX> Copy text to file and diff against the irc logs?
[14:16:27] <xlefay> The wiki in itself, is rather slow too...
[14:16:42] <matt_> Bytram, perhaps you were looking at a cached version, which is why you didn't see that it had already been created?
[14:17:08] <Bytram> could be... don't know how wiki caches things.
[14:17:17] <matt_> LaminatorX, indeed. (i just thought it would take less effort to ask Bytram :)
[14:17:19] <Bytram> I just know there was nothing there when I looked. :/
[14:17:50] <Bytram> could be between the time I looked, created the log, and asked mattie for help, you posted your stuff up there and I missed it! I apologize.
[14:18:23] <matt_> Bytram, no problem! we should have reiterated our standard procedure, since many weren't able to make it to the first meeting.
[14:19:13] <cosurgi> Bytram: you pinged me a 4 am. I was sleeping :)
[14:19:15] <Bytram> funny thiing is, istr that I took responsibility for posting the logs; though I could be misremembering; might explain why I didn't double check
[14:19:19] <cosurgi> Bytram: you pinged me at 4 am. I was sleeping :)
[14:19:23] <Bytram> cosurgi: sleeping is good!
[14:19:30] <cosurgi> yeah! :)
[14:20:20] <matt_> Bytram, yeah, there were quite a few people at the meeting, i might have missed that line :)
[14:20:31] * Bytram goes to check his logs
[14:22:17] <xlefay> http://wiki.soylentnews.org it loads now, but it takes a bit of time to do so.
[14:22:41] <matt_> xlefay, nice! did you adjust something to make that work?
[14:22:58] <xlefay> Yes, the server itself isn't that powerful and it takes a bit of time to generate the diff.
[14:23:28] <xlefay> If you ask me though, mediawiki should cache the diff. I'll check whether that's possible, that'll save some server resources.
[14:23:49] <xlefay> (the change: I changed the max timelimit from 30 seconds to 60, allowing it to generate said diff)
[14:24:36] <matt_> xlefay, ah. makes sense.
[14:24:45] * Bytram returns from reviewing logs
[14:24:49] <matt_> Bytram, it looks like your version doesn't include /me statements
[14:24:51] <xlefay> I wonder though, if we were to open 2000 connections to the diff page in mere seconds whether the server will survive.
[14:25:01] <matt_> Bytram, making my version clearly superior :P
[14:25:42] <xlefay> Who was going to make the draft regarding the protocol for IRC meetings? I'd like to assist, I've got some ideas to make it go smooth. I believe it was mrcoolbp?
[14:26:59] <Bytram> matt_: yeah, I filtered those out, as well as all channel messages.
[14:27:05] <Bytram> fwiw, see: http://logs.sylnt.us
[14:27:25] <xlefay> Essentially, my idea includes a small web interface in which the meetings can be scheduled, and in which everyone can set their preferred time, then, an IRC bot, will automatically notify everyone who signed up for it on IRC, and automatically starts logging the channel - minus irrelevant data, and automatically posts said log
[14:27:33] <xlefay> just a small, explanation of the general idea
[14:28:10] <xlefay> (e.g. in the web interface, you describe the meeting, subject, preliminary agenda, it sends out an e-mail to everyone - people click the link in the e-mail, say whether they're attending, what times fit for them, etc..) - any thoughts?
[14:28:22] <matt_> Bytram, now i remember, i provided that link to let you know that the thing you were mentioning already existed. but there were so many people talking that i didn't have the time to fully explain :/
[14:28:43] <Bytram> matt_: ooooooh! Ooooops!
[14:28:51] <Bytram> *sigh*
[14:29:23] <matt_> xlefay, that sounds like it could be quite helpful, especially for staff meetings, where we would expect a large number of participants.
[14:29:27] <Bytram> matt_: I *thought* you made the place for me to put my version of the logs. I was impressed at how quick that was, too!
[14:29:41] <matt_> heh
[14:30:38] <Bytram> all things considered, it's a luxury problem having too many volunteers for a relatively mundane task. =)
[14:31:37] <matt_> xlefay, also, i will work on making a wiki page where people can put any issues that they would like to be raised at the next board meeting, to help people not be left out in case a meeting gets scheduled at short notice.
[14:32:25] <xlefay> matt_, indeed, and the scheduling/meeting management system could automatically scrap said wiki page
[14:32:46] <Bytram> matt_: speaking of which, wasn't there something in the Bylaws about prior notice for meetings?
[14:32:54] <matt_> Bytram, true! frankly, i think we did very well considering that we have no way to give the floor to one person at a time, as would be done in any normal meeting ;)
[14:32:58] <xlefay> Essentially, the IRC bot, which will use information from the website (e.g. what meeting, what date + time, who's attending, etc) can clear up a lot of stuff. E.g. Which items, etc.
[14:33:39] <xlefay> [meeting-bot] Everyone checked in and is present. Meeting will commence in 5 minutes. Subject matters are:
[14:33:52] <xlefay> [meeting-bot] Item 1... etc...
[14:34:09] <matt_> Bytram, *sigh* on a couple of levels. 1. yes, we are supposed to have 2 business days of prior notice, which doesn't sound too difficult, but we haven't been able to manage it yet. 2. i had hoped that the bylaws would be up on the wiki or somewhere by now. i think that is part of NC's planned incorporation mega-post.
[14:34:16] <Bytram> xlefay: I think it will need to exist/run on an "official" soylentnews server... um, wait a minute.
[14:34:29] <Bytram> matt_: nod nod
[14:34:38] <xlefay> Bytram, naturally
[14:35:16] <Bytram> matt_: didn't we just agree at the board meeting that they meetings would be run on IRC? what xlefay is proposing is *not* IRC, so would not be an official meeting. :(
[14:35:29] <xlefay> Bytram, ? No, I'm suggesting on IRC
[14:35:32] <Bytram> matt_: remember my questio
[14:35:38] <Bytram> oops, typo
[14:35:48] <Bytram> xlefay: come again? I thought you said web interface?
[14:36:02] <xlefay> Bytram, to schedule meetings, and for people to supply the times they're available
[14:36:25] matt_ is now known as matt_|afk
[14:36:48] <xlefay> Say, you want to plan a meeting - you add the meeting and the infos and set predefined times in the webbased system. Then, that system will send out an e-mail to every staff member, they get the general info + a link to say the time they're available
[14:36:56] <Bytram> matt_|afk: missed your prior comment re: one person on the floor at one time... I was thinking of a subset of Robert's rules of Order
[14:37:52] <Bytram> xlefay: ok, I just scrolled back and realize I misunderstood your intention. My bad.
[14:37:56] <xlefay> Then a proper time can be set, depending on the most available members at a given time. And then, when a meeting is about to commence, we'll have an IRC bot, which will notify staff members who have said they'll be here on IRC about it, and the bot will start the meeting once everyone's checked in (within a certain time)
[14:38:21] <xlefay> Then the bot can start the meeting, also directly start logging relevant information. And you'll have commands like "!vote-approved item 1 'description'" or w/e
[14:38:49] <xlefay> So the bot will automatically output (based on a template) the meeting stuff, e.g. log, decisions made, etc. Saving us time in the long run :)
[14:39:06] <Bytram> sounds great, I was thinking along the same lines, but based on prior experience, try the idea manually, first, and then (and only then) automate it. =)
[14:39:39] <xlefay> Agreed, but we're already having a hard time scheduling meetings and finding a proper time, the first time, we did it much better (although, the times were off)
[14:39:49] <xlefay> When people clicked the link and selected the time that fit them the best, remember?
[14:40:07] <Bytram> xlefay: yes, the scheduling stuff can be done separately from the actual running of the meeting.
[14:40:14] <Bytram> xlefay: I do remember...
[14:40:20] <xlefay> Exactly, that's the webbased part I was talking about :)
[14:40:38] <xlefay> And if that stuff all works, we can start looking into such an IRC bot, which will allow us to make meetings more efficient, sounds good?
[14:41:00] <Bytram> but that was using an external (Non soylent-controlled) application which was deemed to be a bit insecure / invasive / etc.
[14:41:12] <xlefay> Exactly, that's why, building our own - is preferable in this case
[14:41:35] <xlefay> Which, will also make it easier to build such a bot who has access to the web interface later :)
[14:41:38] <Bytram> xlefay: bot, yes. I already did a search for an IRC bot to do some flavor of "Robert's Rules of Order", but *simplified*
[14:42:00] * Bytram has 20+years' experience in such meetings.
[14:42:04] <xlefay> I'll have to look into that, we might be able to incoorperate that
[14:42:17] <Bytram> we don't need *all* the nuances and details.
[14:42:46] <xlefay> Right, so if we can incoorperate that into the bot, it'd be even nicer ;)
[14:43:27] <Bytram> just a way to "load" the agenda, put items up for discussion, get who wants to discuss and give each their chance (within reason), make3 motions, vote on them, and record conclusions.
[14:43:34] <Bytram> xlefay: nod nod
[14:44:11] <xlefay> Exactly.
[14:44:24] <xlefay> http://docs.phalconphp.com
[14:44:26] <xlefay> oops
[14:44:28] <xlefay> wrong screen
[14:45:24] <Bytram> I have seen so *many* ways things can go wrong... from overly attentive to the "rules of order" to random mayhem... and have participated in a great many meetings where things have gone smoothly.
[14:46:05] <Bytram> that's why I volunteered to write up a doc with suggested "protocol" for running meetings
[14:46:15] <xlefay> That's great :)
[14:47:03] <Bytram> I just worked 6 days straight, have to get going for the day and have some appointments this pm; won't get too much done on it today, but hope to take a good stab at it tomorrow.
[14:47:41] <xlefay> Alright, take care man & I'd be delighted to proof read the protocol you'll be writing ;)
[14:47:42] <Bytram> the biggest challenge will be to embody the *concepts* from running a meeting,
[14:47:53] <xlefay> It'll probably give me more insights as well
[14:48:03] <xlefay> Haha, no doubt
[14:48:16] <Bytram> without using the exact same terminology in a way that those who are familiar with the gory details will be confused when we don't use them *exactly* that way.
[14:48:29] <xlefay> Yeah, that's gonna be tough
[14:48:54] <xlefay> I suppose if you mention that, the terminology will be followed loosely, that can in itself avoid many confusions?
[14:49:09] <Bytram> there's only about a dozen things or so to document, but the interactions, terminology, and semantics are *key*
[14:49:25] <xlefay> yeah
[14:49:26] <Bytram> ummm, kinda sorta, but not really.
[14:49:36] <xlefay> I gotta go dinner, I'll talk to you later :)
[14:49:52] <Bytram> we could create all brandy-new words so there'd be no conflict, but that wouldn't work too well, either!
[14:49:57] <xlefay> LOL!
[14:50:21] * Bytram notes that xlefay has raised his hand and fligglbargles him.
[14:50:23] <Bytram> =)
[14:50:58] <xlefay> 'Take note, from this point forward, the word meetings will be replaced with a new word, glibberishlymop'
[14:51:10] <Bytram> ding ding ding!
[14:51:11] <xlefay> haha, I gtg dinner buddy, I'll talk to ya later. Take care eh :)
[14:51:18] <xlefay> and Have a good day!
[14:51:25] * Bytram now starts to ponder writing macros in new language ;)
[14:51:30] <Bytram> lol
[14:51:34] <Bytram> thanks, and same to you!
[14:51:40] Bytram is now known as Bytram|afk
[14:51:41] <xlefay> rofl.. hey, we could just write Perl For Meetings.
[14:51:46] <xlefay> take care haha
[14:52:06] <Bytram|afk> "I *object*" takes on a whole new meaning, eh?
[14:52:22] <xlefay> LOL
[14:52:31] <Bytram|afk> "The chairman instantiates the floor"
[14:52:37] <xlefay> Throw new Exception!
[14:52:43] <Bytram|afk> I except!
[14:52:56] <xlefay> haha, we're geniuses! Let's make it so!
[14:53:23] * Bytram|afk has actually seen meetings run with "call" "return" and "indirectly calls" used as means of running the meeting.
[14:53:32] <xlefay> OK>. I really oughta go now haha, take care ;)
[14:53:47] <Bytram|afk> ditto, cya!
[14:57:28] <LaminatorX> (str(repr(\n)repr(\n)) str(agenda, string.join(minutes, ", ")))
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