#staff | Logs for 2014-04-03

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[02:00:58] <Landon> NCommander: we're coming up on 60 days of sylnt.us , which means I can transfer it, interested?
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[07:24:50] <NCommander> Landon, s
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[14:54:31] <janrinok> hi all
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[15:26:33] <mechanicjay> Good morning
[15:27:15] <xlefay> morning ;)
[15:27:37] <xlefay> janrinok, pm please
[15:28:47] <xlefay> How are things mechanicjay ?
[15:29:34] <mechanicjay> alright, you?
[15:30:39] <xlefay> writing docs.. ask me how I'm doing afterwards :P
[15:42:32] * NCommander pours xlefay a drink
[15:42:59] <xlefay> Whiskey?
[15:43:27] <mechanicjay> I've a nice Balvenie 12 year in the cabinet at home.
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[15:47:57] <NCommander> mechanicjay, we were having an interesting discussion on how we could implement slash<->USENET gateways
[15:48:15] <NCommander> By clever use of NNTP authetication, moderated groups, and UUCP
[15:48:31] <mechanicjay> I've always wanted an excuse to run an NNTP server.
[15:48:39] <mechanicjay> :)
[15:50:15] <NCommander> mechanicjay, well, it wouldn't be difficult to get Slash to write out posts and comments as a UUCP batchfile (we already have code for writing out to HTML as part of the static page generation)
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[15:50:40] <NCommander> That could be UUCP-ed out to INN, which would act like Slash is just another news server
[15:51:13] <NCommander> We can mark the groups moderated, and connect inbound postings along the same UUCP channel
[15:51:26] <NCommander> Slash can then read the batchfile and post back into the database
[15:52:03] <mechanicjay> oof, that would be clever.
[15:52:05] <NCommander> Plus, then anyone can mirror the site via normal NNTP sucking tools. If we go down, the site could be recreated by reading out metadata we'll embed in the headers
[15:52:24] <NCommander> We can leverage the entirity of USENET as a mirror
[15:52:36] <mechanicjay> ..what's left of it.
[15:52:48] <NCommander> mechanicjay, anyone who wants to can literially backup the site
[15:52:56] <NCommander> If we get sued out of existence
[15:52:59] <NCommander> SN continues without us
[15:54:08] <NCommander> mechanicjay, Nexuses become their own TLD in the heirarchy
[15:54:22] <NCommander> So comp.soylentnews.org becomes soylentnews.comp
[15:54:51] <NCommander> Since everything is moderated newsgroups and will run through the same UUCP filter, autocrossposting across the hierarchy!
[15:55:12] * NCommander waits for mechanicjay's mind to be blown
[15:56:29] <mechanicjay> NCommander: consider it blown!
[15:56:44] * NCommander is *awesome* at that
[15:56:52] <NCommander> Biggest concern is if UUCP is IPv6 compatible
[15:57:05] <NCommander> eh, you can run it through SSH, so it should be
[15:57:18] <NCommander> UUCP through Kerberosized SSH over IPv6
[15:57:24] <NCommander> There's something fundamentally wrong with that sentence
[15:59:12] * NCommander notes writing a slash -> UUCP backfile gateway is far far easier than Slash <-> NNTP
[15:59:23] <mechanicjay> NCommander: you've just made my need for more coffee acute.
[15:59:46] <NCommander> mechanicjay, we could offer subscribers UUCP email accounts
[15:59:51] <NCommander> (with web/uucp gateway
[15:59:59] <NCommander> :-)
[16:00:10] * NCommander notes audioguy would probably love the ability to real SN with trn
[16:00:53] <NCommander> That being said, my plan to plug ACs into spamassassin would become much more important
[16:01:16] <NCommander> Actually ....
[16:01:23] <NCommander> For stuff coming in via netnews
[16:01:39] <NCommander> We can spamassassin it as it crosses the mail gateway
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[16:02:56] * NCommander notes he needs to stop blowing up staffs minds
[16:03:01] <NCommander> Not good for rention
[16:09:48] <Landon> NCommander: ok, probably 2 weeks actually, because february is a stupid month
[16:12:41] <NCommander> Cyprus, I was in the shower
[16:12:46] <NCommander> Landon, hrm?
[16:12:55] <Landon> sylnt.us
[16:12:55] <NCommander> Oh, the short name
[16:13:21] <NCommander> Cyprus, I don't object to us filtering messages coming in on the gateway, and having a *very* small message allowed size
[16:13:33] <Landon> oh
[16:13:36] <Landon> you're actually talking to someone
[16:13:44] <NCommander> Landon, ?
[16:13:50] * Landon puts the straightjacket back in the closet
[16:14:14] <xlefay> .voice Cyprus
[16:14:14] -!- mode/#staff [+v Cyprus] by SN
[16:14:24] <xlefay> might avoid confusion ;]
[16:14:59] <NCommander> Oops
[16:15:37] <xlefay> I'm rather surprised no-one has been replying to anything on the list lately.
[16:15:46] <xlefay> Well.. very few replies*
[16:30:36] <NCommander> xlefay, I'm honestly concerned I've broken or alienated the staff
[16:59:05] <xlefay> I honestly don't know, I don't see a reason but I'm often actually blind to those things
[17:00:13] <Cyprus> sorry, for those that missed. I was amused at the thought of SN full of par2 binary posts
[17:00:36] <xlefay> rofl
[17:02:59] <NCommander> Cyprus, rate limiting is going to be necessary >.<;
[17:03:15] * NCommander is looking at implementing supermoderators
[17:03:39] <NCommander> Trusted users who can set a comments score, and lock it from moderation to protect it, selected from users with extremely high metamod scores
[17:04:14] <NCommander> (a locked comment has a permament score of five)
[17:04:34] <NCommander> maybe
[17:04:41] * NCommander is still mulling
[17:04:53] <NCommander> http://soylentnews.org - this basically
[17:23:06] <Cyprus> i would expect most mods to be down actually
[17:28:56] <Bytram> NCommander: would there also be an option for a permanent lock at -1?
[17:29:32] <NCommander> Cyprus, you're wrong on that, its also why my mod algo doesn't work properly
[17:29:47] <NCommander> Cyprus, I actually made that assumption when I rewrote it, and was drastically proven wrong.
[17:30:05] <Cyprus> nice, that's one case i'm happy to be proven wrong
[17:30:46] <NCommander> Bytram, hrm ... it feels too abusable. Supermoderation is designed to prevent the groupthink from supressing differing opinions
[17:30:48] <n1_> i think 'supermoderators' could work quite well, i also think good comments get missed for up moderation when they're in replies.
[17:30:58] <NCommander> n1_, the new mod algo is going to be scaling
[17:31:05] <NCommander> People start with 10 points when they become elligable
[17:31:17] <NCommander> If they get metamodded up, they start getting more and more points w/ longer expiration
[17:31:24] <NCommander> If they get metamodded down, the reverse is true
[17:31:33] <NCommander> Metamod scores will, over time, age out
[17:31:38] <Bytram> NCommander: yup, I agree. had my devil's advocate hat on... my first thought when I see something "new" is to see how it can be busted, abused, distorted.
[17:31:52] <NCommander> I'm also going to add a "Report" button
[17:32:05] <Bytram> who will get the reports?
[17:32:18] <NCommander> People who feel a comment is being mismoderate, supermoderators and staff
[17:32:31] <NCommander> It can also be used to remove things that are illegal
[17:32:43] <Bytram> hmmm, as an e-mail, or as a separate page?
[17:32:44] <NCommander> Well, alert the staff to posts that are illegal
[17:32:47] <NCommander> Seperate page
[17:32:55] <Bytram> yeah, that's a good idea!
[17:33:38] <Bytram> the illegal stuff, that is. separate page is fine; might want a count of how many things are pending in that queue on a main status page...
[17:33:41] <NCommander> I'm mentally toying with the idea of just giving supermods unlimited points, and unlimited post/moderate
[17:33:49] <Bytram> make it more interrupt driven than polling sequence, yanno?
[17:34:09] <NCommander> In addition to locking a comment from moderation
[17:34:37] <Bytram> okay, that sounds good... what could go wrong?
[17:35:11] <Bytram> should there be a throttle to limit how many mods can be made per minute?
[17:35:25] <NCommander> Possibly
[17:35:34] <NCommander> I actually suspect Slashdot was healthy in the era of the 25/400
[17:35:37] <NCommander> Before mass moderation
[17:35:48] <Bytram> hmm 25/400?
[17:35:51] <NCommander> *healthist
[17:35:55] <Bytram> oh, nvm
[17:36:05] <Bytram> i remember now.
[17:36:18] <Bytram> let's take a worst case scenario...
[17:36:27] <Bytram> I get super mod capability, k?
[17:36:41] <Bytram> I get ticked off and want to retaliate
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[17:37:01] <NCommander> Bytram, ... no unlimited points :-)
[17:37:18] <Bytram> for (x in storid) {x.mod=-1}
[17:37:28] <Bytram> for (x in story_id) {x.mod=-1}
[17:37:29] <NCommander> Supermoderations will be its own type of point
[17:37:43] <NCommander> I don't expect that we'll need them frequently
[17:37:44] <Bytram> ahhh! so one could reverse what I just wrote?
[17:38:03] <NCommander> So a user will have normal mod points
[17:38:07] <NCommander> Scaling based on their m2 scores
[17:38:21] <NCommander> Plus, if a supermoderate, a couple of super moderation points
[17:38:29] <NCommander> Which allows for score setting/LOCK
[17:38:38] <NCommander> And no easy way to mass apply them beyond 1:1
[17:38:44] <Bytram> hmm, interesting.
[17:38:47] <NCommander> Supermods can also unlock posts by expending a supermod point
[17:39:32] <Bytram> supermodded stories would not be mod-able by "normal" moderators? (i.e. the control would not be presented?)
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[17:40:08] <mattie_p> NCommander, looks like no new articles are being posted, even though they should have, kick the system for us, please?
[17:40:27] <mattie_p> for example: http://soylentnews.org should have posted already, not seeing it on the page
[17:41:02] <NCommander> mattie_p, you're timezone is off by an hour
[17:41:09] <Bytram> lol!
[17:41:13] <NCommander> mattie_p, look at the article page to see it in the local time
[17:41:39] <Bytram> got a couple things to attend to...
[17:42:06] <mattie_p> I am ... doesn't this thing recognize savings time?
[17:43:54] <NCommander> mattie_p, ... ah fuck
[17:44:01] <NCommander> mattie_p, it predates the DST law change
[17:44:10] <NCommander> In slash's perspective, DST hasn't kicked in (yet)
[17:44:28] <mattie_p> hah
[17:44:41] * NCommander goes to bang head repeatively
[17:44:42] <mattie_p> I hadn't noticed til now
[17:44:46] <NCommander> Nor I
[17:44:49] <janrinok> its only 15:43 UTC
[17:45:05] <NCommander> I have UTC time on my toolbar
[17:45:12] <NCommander> So I never need to think about TZ conversions
[17:45:27] <janrinok> that's because you never know where you are!
[17:45:39] <NCommander> janrinok, EXACTLY!
[17:45:53] <NCommander> mattie_p, janrinok: any thoughts re: supermoderation?
[17:45:59] <mattie_p> also, how do we set timezones again? I seem to have lost that link.
[17:46:07] * NCommander wants it to act as circuitbreaker to kill the groupthink
[17:46:36] <mattie_p> NCommander I was reading some of it, I think it could be a good idea.
[17:46:38] * janrinok checking emails to find out what NCommander is talking about
[17:46:51] <NCommander> janrinok, backscroll here
[17:46:58] <NCommander> janrinok, I haven't written it up yet
[17:46:58] <janrinok> ah OK
[17:47:09] <janrinok> that's why I haven't read it.....
[17:47:11] <mattie_p> NCommander I don't think we have too much of that yet, but I'd have to check trends on comments for older articles
[17:47:43] <Bytram> hmmm, and what of possible groupthink from the supermodders?
[17:47:45] <janrinok> I've been earning my keep editing and only keeping a passing eye on the various channels.
[17:48:05] <janrinok> back reading now
[17:48:11] * Bytram thinks we could then use ultramodders =)
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[17:48:46] <NCommander> Bytram, we need M2 to find them in the community
[17:48:47] <NCommander> Ugh
[17:49:00] * NCommander has a lot of coding ahead of him
[17:49:11] <NCommander> paulej72, I'm going to reset dev with a new version of the production database post upgrades
[17:49:40] <mattie_p> actually, looks like DST might work, mine was set to manual (off)
[17:49:43] <mattie_p> testing now
[17:50:11] * NCommander goes to get some food, be back
[17:50:34] <mattie_p> dunno why it defaulted to manual, but then again I set it a long time ago
[17:51:16] <Bytram> NCommander: yeah, that should work. was only [partly] kidding.
[17:53:02] <janrinok> to get round any possible abuse of supermoderation, would it be worth using a 2-supermod rule, or is that just over complicating it? It shouldn't be used often, and on those occasions it should be easy to find a second member of staff to give it another tick, so to speak?
[17:53:56] <janrinok> Just noticed the time - must dash bbl
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[17:56:10] <Bytram> janrinok|afk++ I like that!
[18:15:05] <NCommander> janrinok|afk, we could have a report list, and a supermoderation ACK list
[18:15:22] <NCommander> Two seperate supermods must ACK to lock a comment from moderation
[18:16:31] <Bytram> NCommander++ That sounds like a good compromise.
[18:16:31] <SlimShady> karma - ncommander: 15
[18:16:52] <NCommander> and both must expend a supermod point to do it
[18:34:18] <Bytram> !current-uid
[18:34:18] <SlimShady> The current maximum UID is 4021, owned by BuildTheRobots
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[19:16:26] <paulej72> NCommander: don’t forget to delete all users emails
[19:17:56] <paulej72> NCommander: or better yet update the db to set daily digest to off.
[19:18:10] <NCommander> paulej72, there's a global to turn off emails actually
[19:18:37] <paulej72> we need the emails on if we need to reset passwords
[19:19:14] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: I need someone on the dev team to partner on the "Communication System" decision, audioguy is busy with debugging and expanding the voting-scripts
[19:19:56] <NCommander> paulej72, ugh
[19:20:00] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: a few of the solutions are specific to dev (redmine/trac) and I know so little about that area
[19:20:17] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: or we can just hold a vote and see what happens
[19:20:49] <NCommander> hold the vote
[19:20:53] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: I've tried to invite feedback and research and have got little response
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[19:35:37] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: voting on a system is the next step, I haven't recieved any new suggestions yet, and there are pros/cons to each system proposed, I'll hold off until I hear from you
[19:38:11] <paulej72> NCommander: DELETE FROM message_codes where code=0;
[19:39:53] <paulej72> NCommander: this will turn off any daily emails from the site
[19:40:30] <paulej72> NCommander: wrong table
[19:40:33] janrinok|afk is now known as janrinok
[19:41:01] <paulej72> NCommander: DELETE FROM users_messages where code=0
[19:42:07] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: was that "Proceed" with vote, or "Hold" vote as in "hold off on it"?
[19:42:24] * mrcoolbp just realized he may have misunderstood
[19:42:34] <paulej72> NCommander: code 0 is the daily newsletter and if it is off it gets deleted from the table (technically it is set to -1 the mode for no message)
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[19:46:21] <NCommander> paulej72, thanks
[19:46:45] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, wait, why are you waiting on me?
[19:46:59] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: hold the vote = proceed right?
[19:47:56] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, I'm confused
[19:48:28] <mrcoolbp> I was for a second too, I thought you meant "hold off" but now I'm thinking you meant "proceed with the vote"
[19:50:18] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: If no one has any qualms with the voting system as it stands I'll get the "Communication Systems" vote underway tomorrow (it will be the stress-test of the voting system)
[19:51:16] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: audioguy will be sending an update to the staff-list based on the tests in a few. If there are no flames/issues, I'll begin with the vote in about 12 hours
[19:56:48] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, no issues with that, do it!
[20:08:52] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: I will at least send out information collected "Communication Systems" tomorrow, audioguy is suggesting holding off on a vote until more search can be done.
[20:09:12] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: I have to run to work right now, but I *will* be on most of tomorrow
[20:09:30] <mrcoolbp> search=research
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[20:18:23] * NCommander is tired
[20:19:08] <janrinok> NCommander: is it time you had a rest?
[20:20:44] <NCommander> probably
[20:21:05] <janrinok> ...which means that you won't actually have a rest....
[20:22:03] <janrinok> NCommander: this will probably hurt to hear but, if you go away for an hour and have a break, the system will keep on going without you ;)
[20:22:39] <Bytram> NCommander: and you'll go on better once you do.
[20:22:47] <xlefay> We promise we won't install Windows Server.
[20:22:56] <NCommander> I have meetings at work
[20:22:56] <Bytram> ROFLMAO!!!!!!
[20:23:01] * NCommander hasn't been soylenting
[20:23:28] <janrinok> Get on with your day job and come back when you have the time.
[20:23:41] <xlefay> OK, I won't lie, we'll *try* not to install Windows Server, everyone knows it's the superior OS right?
[20:23:49] <janrinok> rofl
[20:24:32] <xlefay> NCommander, they're right though, do your day job stuff and take a break; even if it's just a day or so, you've been working your ass off. I would hate to see you burn out again
[20:24:52] <Bytram> ^^^^^^^^^^^
[20:25:01] <janrinok> ditto
[20:25:10] <xlefay> and honestly, you can only take so many burn outs before it'll start affecting your health permanently, I'm a bit concerned personally, you do seem like an actual robot at times!
[20:26:05] * xlefay hacks NC's mainframe, damn that apparmor stuff is hard to beat.. finally gets past it, installs a sleeping module
[20:26:07] <Bytram> xlefay: I can speak from experience that he's right.
[20:26:25] <xlefay> Bytram, did you actually mean to prefix me or NC?
[20:26:31] * NCommander rejects it because I installed custom secure boot keys and xlefay doesn't have my private key
[20:26:34] <NCommander> BAHAHAHAHAHA
[20:26:43] <Bytram> nc
[20:26:44] <xlefay> dammit, I knew it was too easy!
[20:27:02] <Bytram> NCommander: keep your privates to yourself. =)
[20:27:05] <Bytram> nograb
[20:27:10] <xlefay> I guess it's time for the hammer approach then!
[20:27:19] <NCommander> Stop. Hammer time.
[20:27:24] <xlefay> Bytram, .. I really wish I had read your comment first
[20:27:39] <Bytram> xlefay: can you change NC's passwords or anything like that?
[20:27:54] <Bytram> lock him out for a bit?
[20:27:59] <xlefay> Bytram, I can; but that wouldn't stop him from using Linode's lish
[20:28:05] <Bytram> LOL!
[20:28:06] <xlefay> besides that would probably be suicide
[20:28:34] <Bytram> that would be not good, we need you, too!
[20:29:10] <Bytram> xlefay: btw, I'm at almost 130MB D/L and still going! =)
[20:29:50] <xlefay> Honestly though, NCommander, please do take care of yourself eh, I know it's easy to get caught up in doing stuff but I learnt the hard way, it's not going to end well in the long term :)
[20:30:08] <xlefay> Bytram, oh, it's 950 or so? I thought it was 95! Oh man.. your data limit is toast.
[20:30:14] <xlefay> burnt toast at that
[20:30:48] <Bytram> NCommander: xlefay is right... I've been there, too. Very Not Good. *YOU* *ARE* worth taking care of!
[20:31:24] <xlefay> what's up with the dots? You know, I can occasionally actually be right too!
[20:31:37] <xlefay> :P
[20:31:57] <Bytram> xlefay: not quite *that* bad. I'm sure I'll be at my max ever for a month, but I usually run at under 1GB/mo anyway.
[20:32:03] <janrinok> xlefay: can you remember what day that was, I get confused? ;)
[20:32:15] <Bytram> ouch!
[20:32:22] <xlefay> :<
[20:32:33] <janrinok> now, now, j/k
[20:32:56] * xlefay wishes 'they' catch janrinok, buh :P
[20:33:11] <janrinok> too late - oh, you mean again!
[20:33:54] * NCommander EODs at work
[20:33:56] <NCommander> I make huge progress
[20:33:59] <NCommander> We have the kernel booting
[20:34:04] <NCommander> We get to init before we crash now
[20:34:04] <xlefay> janrinok, ha :p
[20:34:17] <xlefay> NCommander, best to stop while you're ahead imo
[20:34:26] <xlefay> j/k :p
[20:34:35] <NCommander> [ 0.000000] Linux version 3.14.0-rc6+ (mcasadevall@tranquility) (gcc version 4.8.2 20130624 (prerelease) (crosstool-NG linaro-1.13.1-4.8-2013.07-1 - Linaro GCC 2013.07) ) #6 SMP Thu Apr 3 14:04:27 EDT 2014
[20:34:36] <NCommander> [ 0.000000] CPU: AArch64 Processor [500f0000] revision 0
[20:34:36] <NCommander> [ 0.000000] efi: Getting parameters from FDT:
[20:34:36] <NCommander> [ 0.000000] EFI v2.40 by KVM EFI Apr 3 2014 10:23:39
[20:34:44] <NCommander> That makes me feel extreme accomplished
[20:35:16] <Bytram> NCommander++
[20:35:16] <SlimShady> karma - ncommander: 16
[20:35:53] * NCommander did the UEFI port to KVM
[20:35:53] <janrinok> Impressive!
[20:35:57] <NCommander> First time we got a kernel booting
[20:36:24] <NCommander> (as you can tell by the build time for EFI :-))
[20:36:32] <paulej72> NCommander: did it boot you out the door :)
[20:36:42] <NCommander> groan
[20:36:57] <xlefay> Just be glad you didn't get it working @ Apr 1st, the kernel might have been joking!
[20:37:03] <paulej72> Hey thanks, I’ll be here all week
[20:37:06] <xlefay> Well done tho! ;)
[20:37:16] <NCommander> I feel justified doing some soylent stuff
[20:37:19] <NCommander> muhuhuhu
[20:46:36] <NCommander> I think I'm going to get on a train tomorrow and go some place
[20:46:56] <xlefay> NCommander, that sounds like a good idea
[20:47:05] * xlefay wonders why nginx's logs are reporting upstream as apache
[20:47:20] <xlefay> ... because it's hitting apache directly
[20:48:02] <NCommander> xlefay, its plugged into 2600?
[20:48:08] <xlefay> NCommander, did you point nginx directly at Apache for a reason?
[20:48:21] <NCommander> Oh fuck
[20:48:23] <NCommander> I might have
[20:48:31] <xlefay> 2600 = Apache, as far as I can see
[20:48:40] <NCommander> yeah, it should plug into varnish
[20:49:16] <xlefay> And you tested this set up directly against varnish as well?
[20:49:35] <NCommander> xlefay, I thought I did
[20:49:42] * NCommander is too tired to make key infrastructure choices
[20:50:17] <xlefay> So you're not sure, since it might have been Apache directly. I'm a bit reluctant to plug it into varnish now, afraid things might break. Let me check dev.
[20:50:50] <NCommander> xlefay, dev is down, DB import
[20:51:00] <xlefay> Ok, I'll wait then.
[20:52:12] <Bytram> xlefay: is there something in the apache logs we can search for?
[20:52:29] <xlefay> Only 36 entries in nginx's error log since April 1, so that's not bad at all. Only a few errors; so we can wait a bit.
[20:52:45] <Bytram> sounds like a plan!
[20:54:30] <xlefay> Bytram, the biggest problem now is that SSL users are completely bypassing Varnish, thus, Apache is getting hit directly which uses more resources than is required; but considering 1GB of memory is still free at the moment, I'm not considering it a big issue.
[20:55:01] <xlefay> And it has only failed so far with js & css files, and only 36 times in three days, so I'm inclined to just wait till Dev's ready before testing.
[20:55:21] <Bytram> xlefay: so, plenty of memory... how's the cpu load holding up?
[20:55:41] <xlefay> It seems it has 8 vcpu's and they're holding up pretty good.
[20:55:54] <NCommander> I'm more worried about the DB if anything
[20:56:04] * NCommander notes we have far too much shit to do
[20:56:13] <xlefay> About 950mb of memory is being used | There's 263MB in swap | Processor load is low.
[20:56:28] <xlefay> And yes, I second the DB stuff however, having nginx in front wouldn't perse avoid that
[20:56:44] <NCommander> xlefay, probably worth either upgrading helium, or adding a second DB end
[20:56:46] <xlefay> We run memcached though, so that should shave a few bits and bites here and there
[20:56:47] <NCommander> Then haproxy mysql
[20:56:59] <NCommander> Or figure out how the mysql reader/writer shit works
[20:57:03] <NCommander> in slash
[20:57:04] <xlefay> I would vote just to add another DB, makes it more resilient also
[20:57:34] * NCommander starts reading mysqlreplication for idiots
[20:57:47] <Bytram> while we are talking DBs, I'm curious, does MYSql support triggers?
[20:58:08] <xlefay> It does but last I used them, they weren't nowhere near as advanced as PostgreSQL's
[20:58:14] <NCommander> Well
[20:58:15] <NCommander> fuck
[20:58:16] <NCommander> MySQL replication currently does not support any locking protocol between master and slave to guarantee the atomicity of a distributed (cross-server) update
[20:58:18] <xlefay> but that was many years ago so please don't ask me for specifics.
[20:58:33] <Bytram> that's what I'd heard as well.
[20:58:57] <Bytram> say what you will about Oracle, but their trigger handling was pretty solid in my experiece.
[20:58:59] <xlefay> Ugh, I'd rather use a MSSQL or even access backend then MySQL.
[20:59:11] <Bytram> access? shudder!
[20:59:20] <xlefay> Bytram, funny thing is, MySQL now belongs to Oracle iirc
[20:59:26] <NCommander> xlefay, I think we need to make a plan to migrate to postgres
[20:59:29] * NCommander is serious
[20:59:35] <NCommander> WIthin 1 year
[20:59:36] <xlefay> NCommander, I second that, and I'm also serious.
[20:59:47] <Bytram> yup. and what *was* mysql has forked to, I think, mariadb?
[20:59:48] <NCommander> One thing is working for us
[20:59:50] <xlefay> From what I've seen, the major concern is that there's not enough code for the PostgreSQL stuff.
[20:59:51] <NCommander> mariadb
[20:59:56] <NCommander> xlefay, its a torch and burn
[20:59:59] <NCommander> But its not that bad
[20:59:59] <xlefay> Which is not much different from MyQL, is it?
[21:00:10] <xlefay> Just a different name, license 'n logo's afaik?
[21:00:11] <NCommander> xlefay, Slash does enough mysqlly things it won't be trivial
[21:00:19] <xlefay> Heck, you might even be better off with PerconaDB
[21:00:30] <Bytram> xlefay: never heard of it.
[21:00:31] <NCommander> but it could allow us to move to full stored proceedurs
[21:00:36] <Bytram> ^^^^^^
[21:00:39] <xlefay> Think that one was actually meant to scale, but .. don't quote me on that.
[21:00:39] <NCommander> which is security++
[21:00:49] <NCommander> xlefay, I rather not risk introducing more bugs
[21:00:51] <xlefay> MariaDB or PostgreSQL?
[21:01:00] <NCommander> xlefay, Postgres
[21:01:06] <xlefay> PerconaDB = MySQL = MariDB
[21:01:08] <NCommander> Slash is properly architected to use master/reader architecture
[21:01:14] <NCommander> I say we take advantage of taht in the short term
[21:01:16] <xlefay> but they all have their own little "extensions" and shiat
[21:01:31] <xlefay> I see, well that's good.
[21:01:55] <NCommander> xlefay, here's our failover
[21:01:56] <NCommander> https://dev.mysql.com
[21:01:58] <NCommander> At least that exists
[21:02:00] <Bytram> that should be a consideration in any DB porting... to isolate any extensions that are used.
[21:02:10] <NCommander> Bytram, agreed
[21:02:15] * NCommander notes we should look at all DBs
[21:02:26] <NCommander> While postgres is my first choice, Firebird is another good one
[21:02:41] <Bytram> treat it like a device driver; it gets requests and translates, as needed, to talk to the specific db on tha backend
[21:02:45] <xlefay> May I suggest, that once the MySQL shit is no longer needed, we burn it with fire? Heavily? and possibly with lot's of Kerosene?
[21:02:54] <Bytram> thermite
[21:02:58] <xlefay> thermite works too.
[21:03:20] <xlefay> Never used Firebird; PostgreSQL is my choice of DB.. it's just awesome.
[21:03:36] <NCommander> xlefay, postgres is master-slave replication out of the box too though
[21:03:55] <paulej72> For the most part all of the mysql things are in the MySQL.pm module in slash, but I would not put it past the devs to sneek some code that directly hit the db elsewhere in the codebase
[21:04:04] <xlefay> but PostgreSQL is a pain with replicating shit, Slony anyone?
[21:05:08] <xlefay> but meh, whatever we use, as long as it's good, it's good. If it's not, burn it with thermite and/or Kersone, depending on how serious it is.
[21:05:37] <NCommander> xlefay, I know Launchpad uses slony internally
[21:05:45] <NCommander> What I want is a PL/SQL equivelent for real stored proceedures
[21:05:52] <NCommander> Our database user should only have EXECUTE permission
[21:06:04] <NCommander> and possibly select
[21:06:09] <xlefay> paulej72, I fear the same, perhaps - it would be useful to add a layer @ dev that writes queries to a log (and possibly where the queries are defined)?
[21:06:15] <NCommander> xlefay, we have that
[21:06:18] <NCommander> Slash has that built in
[21:06:28] <NCommander> it logs queries to the table when a magic file is written
[21:06:36] <xlefay> So, you can go to a page; and slash also logs where the queries are coming from?
[21:06:37] <NCommander> xlefay, Slash's SQL is horrorifying
[21:06:45] <NCommander> I broke zford with it
[21:06:46] <xlefay> I know, I've seen some of it in MySQL.pem
[21:06:57] <NCommander> Our mainpage causes 96 queries to the database
[21:07:00] <NCommander> :-)
[21:07:08] <xlefay> Actually.. when I looked at that page @ github, I litterally just ctrl+f2'd "killall firefox -9"
[21:07:16] <xlefay> that was actually not my intention but it happened..
[21:07:21] <NCommander> database imported on dev
[21:07:22] <xlefay> (seriously, it did)
[21:07:33] <xlefay> 96?! shoot me now
[21:07:56] <NCommander> mysql> DELETE FROM users_messages where code=0;
[21:07:56] <NCommander> Query OK, 2502 rows affected (0.03 sec)
[21:07:57] <NCommander> wow
[21:08:05] <NCommander> xlefay, and that's after it memcached :-)
[21:08:17] <xlefay> hmm
[21:08:32] <xlefay> 0.03 seconds, well I suppose with the hardware that would be acceptable
[21:09:37] <xlefay> What I dislike about MySQL though is their engines
[21:09:52] <Bytram> hmmm, is there a comparable mysql command to ask it to "DESCRIBE tablename" which would output the schema for that table? (i.e. all the column names and their attributes)
[21:10:05] <xlefay> I don't give a rats ass, I just want it to work, properly, not having to found out that I was using MyISAENEONog and it doesn't support what I need because it's the stupid default
[21:10:08] <NCommander> show table
[21:10:13] <Bytram> thanks!
[21:10:18] <xlefay> Bytram, actually, I'm sure DESCRIBE works with MySQL
[21:10:25] <NCommander> xlefay, nope :-
[21:10:39] <xlefay> hmm weird, I could've sworn
[21:10:47] <paulej72> Describe works
[21:11:02] <NCommander> xlefay, I'm suprised you haven't wanted to bring up replacing Slash (or rewriting it in a new programming language)
[21:11:11] * NCommander notes he doesn't love perl, but as far as shit getting the job done ...
[21:11:25] <xlefay> I have in the past polled some opinions though.
[21:11:33] <NCommander> and I honestly won't write it in python
[21:11:34] <Bytram> we'd need a solid test base before even considering such a move
[21:11:37] <xlefay> I wouldn't mind seeing slash rewritten but I think there's a serious danger there.
[21:11:40] <NCommander> Python has serious scaling issues
[21:12:00] <Bytram> so, we use lisp, then?
[21:12:05] <NCommander> Honestly
[21:12:05] <xlefay> heh, don't get funny now
[21:12:10] <NCommander> Once we get it off mod_perl 1.3
[21:12:13] <xlefay> we'll just modify PostgreSQL to serve the website too!
[21:12:15] <NCommander> Life gets better
[21:12:21] <Bytram> better still, elisp, and then we can run the server under emacs!
[21:12:28] <xlefay> How's that for efficiency?
[21:12:36] <NCommander> xlefay, reddit was written in lisp originally
[21:12:43] <NCommander> */not kidding*
[21:12:52] <paulej72> no we can run the site in systemd
[21:12:52] * Bytram sits up and takes notice
[21:13:02] <xlefay> NCommander, I bet. Besides that, the only real alternative for Perl I see would be PHP and I'm a bit split on that
[21:13:26] <xlefay> I would love to see it in Python, but if it has scaling issues like you said, it wouldn't be viable.
[21:13:33] <NCommander> http://www.redditblog.com
[21:13:47] <NCommander> The nice thing abotu perl is there's a huge nice split between the libraries
[21:13:52] <NCommander> It means its a fucking monster to setup
[21:13:54] <xlefay> Meh, php has that
[21:13:56] <NCommander> But perl is fucking fast
[21:14:00] <Bytram> that's funny, I thought I'd read some supercomputer code was written in python?
[21:14:20] * NCommander digs
[21:14:32] <Bytram> i guess if you throw enough hardware at it, it doesn't matter?
[21:14:42] <xlefay> NCommander, there's little comparison between php & perl nowadays I'd say, they both have quirks, similar syntax _but_ they both get the job done quickly
[21:14:48] <NCommander> Bytram, that was the launchpad solution
[21:15:06] <xlefay> what they really have in common though, is that you can do it as neat or as fucked up as you wish
[21:15:12] <NCommander> Honestly, slash does enough shit right, and it *is* architected properly
[21:15:14] <xlefay> which counts for both but in PHP & Perl, it's just too easy..
[21:15:16] <NCommander> the code is shit in a lot of places
[21:15:21] <NCommander> But the fundamental design is sane
[21:15:29] <Bytram> okay, silly question "launchpad solution"?
[21:15:34] <NCommander> Bytram, launchpad.net
[21:15:45] <Bytram> oh. k. thanks.
[21:15:46] <NCommander> though that's not so much Python as it is Zope
[21:15:57] * NCommander notes there are some pages on launchpad that MAY cause 1000+ queries
[21:16:15] <Bytram> Yikes!!!
[21:16:26] <xlefay> NCommander, I'm not sure if I see the relevance there, design is right and shit but.. if the code's messy and such, it's really worth asking "Is fixing it worth it?"
[21:16:42] <xlefay> Let's be fair, 1000+ queries, big ones? Small ones? huge ones?
[21:16:51] <NCommander> yes, yes and yes
[21:16:55] <xlefay> e.g. with slash I don't want to know.. nine out of ten times it's the wrong answer
[21:16:57] <xlefay> ugh
[21:16:57] <NCommander> Its why I say postgres scales :-)
[21:17:10] <xlefay> Of course it does, elephants do that
[21:17:40] <NCommander> xlefay, well, yes, but with a proper architecture, we can piecemeal rewrite
[21:17:44] <Bytram> NCommander: is that from personal experience with postgres? I'd read good things about it, but not met anyone who'd really *USED* it, hard.
[21:17:45] <NCommander> As long as we accept its perl
[21:17:58] <NCommander> Bytram, I know what launchpad.net does to its backend
[21:18:00] <xlefay> NCommander, right, that's the real question
[21:18:08] <NCommander> Canonical seriously considered moved to Oracle for it
[21:18:14] <NCommander> Before deciding postgres was right
[21:18:19] <NCommander> *moving
[21:18:20] <xlefay> Bytram, there are some that swear with PostgreSQL, I'd say, there are at least two in this channel
[21:18:23] <Bytram> that works for me!
[21:18:23] <xlefay> by*
[21:18:50] * Bytram notices the time and realizes he should eat
[21:19:07] <xlefay> I always find the name MySQL funny.
[21:19:21] <NCommander> What I just want to do is redo the entire database layer
[21:19:28] <NCommander> I *want* stored proceedures damn it
[21:19:33] <xlefay> "My SQL would be properly written SQL not so weird `MySQL` syntax"
[21:19:44] <xlefay> My [kind of] SQL* :)
[21:19:54] <NCommander> Stored proceedures, and views for selecting stuff
[21:19:55] <xlefay> although, iirc, PostgreSQL does deviate here and there
[21:20:04] <xlefay> NCommander, of course, that's the proper way and secure way.
[21:20:23] <NCommander> xlefay, it always shocks me that so many people seem allergic to stored proceedures
[21:20:30] * Bytram notices e-mail D/L at 175MB and only about 20 folders to go =)
[21:20:58] <xlefay> I'll admit I don't use them quite as often as I should (then again haven't done anything in months with it besides Icinga which was hands off :|); but they're certainly awesome
[21:21:05] Bytram is now known as Bytram|afk
[21:21:23] * Bytram|afk will be back in a few minutes
[21:21:29] <xlefay> It's mostly because people don't understand them or are afraid they'll fuck it up I suppose
[21:22:03] <xlefay> Well guess what? Life's for fucking up stuff, you fall, you get back on your feet and you make that damn trigger work'
[21:23:32] <xlefay> NCommander, how about them views then ;-)
[21:24:12] * xlefay notes PGSQL 9.3 came with json support ;D
[21:25:48] <xlefay> just ranting but what I thought to be the worst of MySQL back when I used it, is that I couldn't even set a damn simple constraint without it being ignored!
[21:26:47] <NCommander> FOREIGN KEYS are only respected on InnoDB
[21:27:50] <xlefay> that's just foreign keys lol
[21:29:14] <xlefay> I wonder if innodb would support the cascade and shit
[21:29:53] <xlefay> and it only took them ?? years? ;-)
[21:30:35] <xlefay> Well I'm glad for those who still use MySQL, least, they got something a little more same than myisam
[21:30:45] <xlefay> sane*
[21:31:03] <xlefay> Then he shouldn't have called it SQL imo
[21:31:14] <xlefay> Probably just should've called it "MyISAM" itself
[21:32:12] <xlefay> no clue
[21:32:18] <xlefay> try to avoid MySQL whenever I can
[21:32:33] <xlefay> I know a site which really really needs InnoDB which uses myisam
[21:32:42] <xlefay> you wouldn't believe how badly coded it is
[21:33:04] <xlefay> SQL queries that are so fuckt up that aren't done before the script times out, etc
[21:34:38] <xlefay> it's amazing how stupid stuff can be done
[21:37:46] <Bytram|afk> xlefay: ummm, who are you talking to?
[21:37:55] <xlefay> oh, Cyprus
[21:37:56] <xlefay> LOL
[21:38:03] -!- mode/#staff [+v Cyprus] by SN
[21:38:07] <xlefay> he's not voiced again omg.. I'm thinking I should just auto voice Cyprus
[21:38:09] <Cyprus> i'm making him look crazy again
[21:38:10] <Bytram|afk> thank you
[21:38:13] <xlefay> I must've looked like a madman
[21:38:23] <Bytram|afk> yup,
[21:38:33] <Bytram|afk> looks aren't everything
[21:38:37] Bytram|afk is now known as Bytram
[21:38:51] <Cyprus> i voice myself when i think i have something to contribute, but i mean im not staff so i try not to talk in here too much
[21:39:04] <xlefay> Cyprus, meh, why do you think we opened this channel?
[21:39:15] <Cyprus> its world read, not write though
[21:39:22] <xlefay> not just so you can see stuff but also contribute when you've got something useful to say
[21:39:35] <xlefay> that's why, we send messages from non-voiced to ops by default
[21:40:16] <Cyprus> right, which is how i make the ops look crazy =)
[21:40:47] <xlefay> another reason was so I could just blur out random shit without people getting suspicious about me being crazy
[21:40:53] <xlefay> err wait, I wasn't going to send that, dammit
[21:42:51] <paulej72> xlefay: what is really bad, my client does not show voiced or non-voiced in the message window, so I did not see an issue as I am still oped in here
[21:43:06] <xlefay> paulej72, lol!
[21:43:23] <xlefay> mine does, I just don't watch it when Cyprus is talking because he can voice himself when he needs to
[21:43:52] -!- mechanicjay [mechanicjay!~jhowe@Soylent/Staff/Sysop/mechanicjay] has joined #staff
[21:43:52] -!- mode/#staff [+v mechanicjay] by SN
[21:45:59] <Bytram> FWIW, thunderbird email D/L complete; 189MB.
[21:46:31] <Bytram> now launching firefox... hope my little box can hold up under the weight. =)
[21:46:41] <xlefay> Oh most definitely
[21:46:59] <xlefay> Thunderbird can deal with several GB of mails before crashing last I heard anyway
[21:52:08] <Bytram> Oh, the programs will be fine, I'm sure; it's my little box I was concerned about. After launching FF, I've got about 200MB memory free atm, so it's looking okay.
[22:14:19] -!- janrinok has quit [Quit: leaving]
[22:14:42] -!- SirFinku_ [SirFinku_!~textual@l-64-313-06-125.hsd0.wa.comcast.net] has joined #staff
[22:17:54] MrBluze is now known as MrBluze|afk
[22:17:58] -!- SirFinkus has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[22:21:17] SirFinku_ is now known as SirFinkus
[23:06:54] -!- Cyprus has quit [Quit: out]
[23:41:13] Bytram is now known as Bytram|away
[23:41:33] * Bytram|away is away: off for the evening