#soylent | Logs for 2024-10-27
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[02:40:41] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Bram Stoker, Long-Lost Story Found - https://soylentnews.org - from-beyond-the-grave
[02:49:03] <chromas> Bam Stroker
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[05:43:26] <kolie> o/
[06:05:17] <chromas> \o
[06:05:40] <kolie> howzit?
[06:07:01] <chromas> Made a pizza, takin' off muh shoes
[06:07:19] <kolie> Interesting.
[06:07:26] <kolie> Hackaday has a TMB
[06:07:37] <chromas> Any recent postings?
[06:07:38] <kolie> https://hackaday.com
[06:07:39] <systemd> ^ 03The Glacial IPv6 Transition: Raising Questions On Necessity And NAT-Based Solutions ( https://hackaday.com )
[06:07:47] <kolie> today.
[06:08:49] <chromas> Seems TMBish
[06:09:26] <chromas> "Why? Do you have a logical reason to run a more difficult to use stack or does it just give you a special feeling in your trousers to use newer stuff?"
[06:09:37] * chromas nods sagely
[06:11:01] <kolie> I mean my IPv6 addesses I actually was thinking today are easy to remember.
[06:11:09] <kolie> Which is kind of funny that's the argument he makes.
[06:11:17] <kolie> 2602:fd63::/36
[06:11:36] <kolie> twenty six oh two - efdee six-three
[06:11:47] <chromas> I don't remember mine but I've noticed almost all ipv6 addies I've seen start with 2600:
[06:12:05] <kolie> Yea those are the main allocation regions.
[06:12:23] <chromas> I assume that's supposed to be a geeky reference
[06:12:29] <kolie> No.
[06:12:37] <kolie> It's just easy for me to remember.
[06:12:46] <chromas> 2600:6969:c0fefe:0420::666
[06:12:51] <kolie> lol
[06:12:55] <chromas> got 'em all
[06:14:07] <chromas> My problem with ipv6 is that it always seems to crap out after a couple days of the modem running, so dns will give v6 addresses and all connections time out
[06:14:12] <chromas> but all v4 stuff keeps on running
[06:14:35] <chromas> perhaps switching to the new fiber isp will help
[06:14:49] <kolie> I've not had issues with it in forever, I stopped thinking about it for the most part.
[06:16:52] <chromas> Perhaps someday I Can too
[06:18:05] <chromas> =yt put a bird on it
[06:18:06] <systemd> https://youtube.com - Put a Bird On It! | Portlandia | IFC (01:43; 416,120 views; 👍3,845)
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[06:47:53] <kolie__> IPv6 is now enabled on testing.
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[07:16:24] -!- mode/#soylent [+v janrinok] by Imogen
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[07:16:45] <kolie> heyo
[07:18:09] <janrinok> o/ are you up early or late?
[07:18:20] <kolie> its just past midnight
[07:18:45] <janrinok> OK, thanks for the bug fixes - whatever you did cured both problems!
[07:19:19] <kolie> I was aware of the user profile delay, what was the second problem?
[07:19:44] <janrinok> the updating of the comment count
[07:19:59] <janrinok> they both are back to 'normal' now
[07:20:11] <kolie> The comment count thing, that's always been delayed FYI, live is the same.
[07:20:25] <kolie> The other thing, I optimized some stuff, but the hardware is the reason why it was slower.
[07:20:40] <janrinok> not for me - it is a second or less at the moment
[07:20:53] <kolie> For the comments?
[07:21:13] <janrinok> for the count to update on the story queue, yes
[07:21:43] <kolie> It's not instant, there is a process on live that periodically runs, theres no way it updates every second.
[07:24:00] <janrinok> I've just commented and it took less than 2 seconds. Certainly by the time I had switched pages it was updated.
[07:24:17] <kolie> It must've just ran shortly after.
[07:24:22] <janrinok> No matter - it is working!
[07:24:33] <kolie> Yea I researched this pretty thorougly
[07:25:53] <kolie> There is a script its run like every 30 or 60 seconds that sets the comment count, if you post a comment, and its set to run in 5 seconds, you'll see it, so it'll seem quick sometimes.
[07:25:57] <janrinok> I am making the most of the clock change here which took place overnight. I had forgotten about it so I got up and realised I had gained an hour!
[07:27:33] <janrinok> I think I am on 3 different IRC connections now. One says it is testing, another says it is staging, and then the main site as usual.
[07:27:43] <kolie> Staging doesn't exist.
[07:27:50] <kolie> There is only live and testing now.
[07:28:17] <kolie> janrinok user is on irc.sylnt.us
[07:28:41] <janrinok> * irc.staging.soylentnews.org solanum-1.0-dev
[07:29:07] <kolie> I guess I left it linked.
[07:29:11] <janrinok> lol
[07:29:19] <kolie> Cool.
[07:29:46] <kolie> its not running services anymore thats all that matters really.
[07:29:56] <kolie> We can shut down staging linode.
[07:30:20] <kolie> I don't think its running anything anymore.
[07:30:31] <kolie> That we dont have copies of elsewhere.
[07:31:13] <kolie> I don't have IPv6 where I'm at currently, but I think testing has working ipv6 as well.
[07:31:24] <janrinok> If we are forced to keep a Linode server for whatever reason, which do you think we should keep? I have no visibility of the different configurations that they each have.
[07:31:43] <chromas> the cheapest one
[07:31:43] <kolie> I wouldn't keep any of the existing machines, they are all weird af.
[07:31:55] <janrinok> lol - fair enough
[07:32:07] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Air-Taxi Maker Lilium to File for Insolvency - https://soylentnews.org
[07:32:09] <kolie> We could cancel all the existing ones, and then get one, a fresh one, to download backups too
[07:32:26] <chromas> mix and match. gentoo container in an ubuntu host
[07:32:45] <janrinok> Is tungsten up and running as far as you are concerned. Is it up to the job?
[07:32:46] <kolie> what host is gentoo
[07:33:06] <chromas> some used to be. not sure since the big switchening a while back
[07:33:23] <chromas> we have a tungsten now?
[07:33:23] <kolie> tungsten has issues with the drive access times.
[07:33:27] <janrinok> Oh, no idea - they started changing over in late 2022 and then things took an entirely different direction!
[07:33:51] <kolie> The reason why testing was slow was because of drive access patterns on spinning vs ssd
[07:33:53] <janrinok> chromas, tungsten is what fliptop has called his box
[07:33:58] <kolie> tungsten is 100x, literally worse.
[07:34:13] <kolie> i was measuring 20 iops
[07:34:14] <chromas> ah. I assume it was just a testing box though right?
[07:34:48] <kolie> so i dont think we could feasibly run mariadb on tungsten at all.
[07:34:50] <janrinok> chromas, the original idea was, if it was up to the job, it would be a standby for the main site and the repo for our backups
[07:35:30] <kolie> I ran some disk metrics when I figured out that the user.pl load times where disk access related.
[07:35:43] <janrinok> It doesn't seem to be up to the job. I am prepared to fund an upgrade if it is worth it. However, it could always be a useful backup.
[07:36:04] <kolie> linode was fastest, staging wasnt as quick, but I could optimize, tungsten was, oddly slow, like to the point where I think I measured it wrong but I ran it twice.
[07:36:19] <kolie> 20s on linode 40s on testing, 6min on tungsten
[07:36:42] <janrinok> He did pick it up for next to nothing, and we knew it wasn't state of the art!
[07:36:53] <janrinok> lol
[07:36:57] <kolie> Yea, we could run some like uhh, bender, shit like that on it.
[07:37:06] <kolie> The problem is the disk speed mostly.
[07:37:21] <janrinok> is that entirely due to disk access speed? We could always shove a SSD in there
[07:37:34] <kolie> Yea, testing could use a faster disk too
[07:38:06] <janrinok> buying a couple of 2TB SSDs should be possible
[07:39:09] <kolie> makes me wonder how slash did it in the 90s
[07:39:17] <kolie> dealt with 10s user page loads I guess ><
[07:39:24] <janrinok> .... on a 486!
[07:40:00] <kolie> Yea the queries where not very well optimized when I was looking at the user page
[07:40:01] <janrinok> Probably seemed fast at the time - what were they comparing it with?
[07:40:07] <chromas> web sites used to be faster back then
[07:40:14] <chromas> the only limit was the modem speed :D
[07:40:30] <Ingar> they didn't have gentoo
[07:40:39] <kolie> I avoided altering the queries - that gets into slash and how it formats dbs, this would've been avoiding the DB queries and just writing a specific query for the operation.
[07:40:41] <chromas> they didn't have mariadb's wonky multi-byte implementation
[07:41:18] <kolie> whats wonky about it?
[07:41:20] <janrinok> mariadb has actually got the latest standard now
[07:41:39] <kolie> mb4 vs mb3?
[07:42:04] <janrinok> It is mysql which is the one holding on to a dubious utf8 format. I have to convert the mysql to mariadb each time.
[07:42:36] <chromas> oh did maria go its own way on data types?
[07:42:37] <janrinok> stand by - I forget the name, I will go and try to find it
[07:43:32] <janrinok> uca1400_as_ci
[07:43:35] <kolie> Ok well my plan monday then remains to change A and AAAA records for soylentnews.org and www.soylentnews.org to point to the testing box.
[07:44:34] <kolie> I'll change the frontend on the current linode to be a page that says "Moving servers" or something similar, and then start the DB migration process.
[07:44:47] <janrinok> sounds like a plan!
[07:45:22] <janrinok> what time (and in which TZ) do you think that you will be doing it
[07:46:09] <janrinok> the lowest load is around about now in terms of activity. (As far as I can see here)
[07:46:35] <kolie> 1600 utc
[07:46:59] <kolie> I'm doing it monday because I have the most time to work if anything blows up
[07:47:10] <janrinok> OK, that make sense
[07:47:42] <janrinok> Do you want me to put out a Meta today to give people a warning?
[07:47:57] <kolie> I think that's prudent.
[07:48:03] <janrinok> so do I :)
[07:48:51] <janrinok> I'll word it to explain that there will be several 'upgrades' over the coming days.
[07:50:14] <janrinok> Is there anything that needs backing up before the moves that we might have missed?
[07:51:23] <kolie> The server and data wont go anywhere yet.
[07:51:52] <kolie> But I think outside of the site/db, irc, logs, and maybe the wiki, we dont have much left to lose.
[07:52:03] <janrinok> Do you want anything specific for an SSD to upgrade testing? I can get Amazon to deliver something to your company address if you wish.
[07:52:30] <kolie> Let me visit and confirm the hardware that will work.
[07:52:51] <kolie> Let me see if I can pull it right now, I was looking already.
[07:54:12] <janrinok> PM
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[09:33:19] <janrinok-znc> fab23, Are you still seeing a packet loss on IPv6?
[09:34:16] <fake1956> "Freedom's just another word, for nothing left to loose. "
[09:35:35] <janrinok_> fab23, I am seeing a complete IPv6 connection to without any transfer to IPv4 at all.
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[11:11:56] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Changing Hardware - https://soylentnews.org - you-dump-the-data-out,-you-load-the-data-in,-you-do-the-hokey-cokey...
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[12:10:31] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - How One Engineer Beat the Ban on Home Computers in Socialist Yugoslavia - https://soylentnews.org - nerds-vs-communists
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[12:51:23] <fab23> janrinok_: yes looks still not fine to the mail host: https://smokeping.home4u.ch but irc.soylentnews.org does not have a IPv6 in DNS
[12:51:25] <systemd> ^ 03mail.soylentnews.org IPv6
[13:33:01] <janrinok-znc> thanks
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[17:01:11] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Location Tracking of Phones is Out of Control. Here's How to Fight Back. - https://soylentnews.org - what-were-you-doing-*there*-friend?
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[17:29:06] -!- mode/#soylent [+v mrpg] by Imogen
[17:29:43] <mrpg> So, docker. Seems like a lot of work coming from sudo aptitude update && sudo aptitude safe-upgrade
[17:30:48] <mrpg> So, I have to create a local registry, because I wouldn't use a public one. Maybe. and the install, and instead of updating i have to delete and reinstall.
[17:31:21] <mrpg> So that's the trade-off...
[17:34:16] <fab23> docker / containers are used, when old software needs to keep running and is not able to work with current software.
[17:35:25] <mrpg> Isn't it less resource-intensive VM?
[17:35:37] <mrpg> Like a snap.
[17:36:36] <fab23> a VM does have its own kernel, containers (like chroot or such) are using the hosts kernel
[17:39:13] <mrpg> Yes, so it is easier on the CPU. And the idea is to improve security and ease of reinstall in the case of anything.
[17:39:44] <mrpg> So the idea is a container for apache, another for rehash, etc.
[17:53:28] <fab23> I guess a container for each system, e.g. the whole SN web site stack in one container.
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[17:54:21] <fab23> on the host you may need a webserver as reverse proxy, as the web applications in the container need to run on a different port then 80 / 443
[17:57:41] <janrinok-znc> Docker containers also provide several advantages. They can be made to be self-restarting so that, if there is a temporary failure beyond our control, they will recover and restart themselves in the correct sequence.
[17:57:54] <chromas> You can run your 80/443 server in a container too. I think varnish is our front-end
[17:58:09] <chromas> janrinok-znc: sounds like you need systemd :D
[17:58:53] <janrinok-znc> Individual containers can be rebuilt with completely different software as long as the inputs and outputs stay on the same ports. We can slowly update and rewrite software for the future. They can also be tested individually,
[17:59:46] <janrinok-znc> They are more secure . Each container will only accept input on the specified ports. It greatly reduces the attack surface.
[18:00:48] <kolie> o/
[18:00:50] <janrinok-znc> They are also easier to manage by numpties such as myself. If I need to restart a container it is a simple command, and all the other containers just restore themselves and keep on going.
[18:01:13] <janrinok-znc> o/ kolie - aren't you still enjoying your weekend?
[18:01:17] <kolie> yea
[18:01:19] <kolie> just checking in
[18:01:46] <janrinok-znc> SSD should be delivered on Wednesday. it seems that USA is too big for overnight deliveries.
[18:01:56] <kolie> mrpg, its far easier to manage and maintain the containers. the entire config is at a glance, and is confirmed to be that config
[18:02:04] <kolie> There is no drift.
[18:02:18] <kolie> Right now one box has multiple services, you can't tell what they are, whats been modified, how its setup.
[18:02:26] <kolie> Its a giant black box of I hope this doesnt break anything.
[18:02:43] <kolie> I'd had to even think how one would make a 1:1 copy of that machine, and KNOW you have done so correctly.
[18:03:06] <kolie> We are using traefik in testing as the frontned
[18:03:13] <kolie> and rehash container has its own varnish on top of that.
[18:03:33] <kolie> mrpg, you can still run rehash as you please, doesnt need any docker etc.
[18:03:39] <chromas> Containerization makes it easier by having many small black boxes :D
[18:03:57] <kolie> With well documented entry points, and defined software by config.
[18:04:33] <kolie> The docker files are fully self documenting.
[18:04:52] * janrinok-znc remembers TMB saying that about Perl
[18:06:11] <kolie> anyways. happy to talk about running software in docker, it a tool, not the only tool, but seems to be hitting all the pros in being implemented here.
[18:06:15] <kolie> TMB is an intersting dude.
[18:06:32] <janrinok-znc> lol - I might quote you on that someday
[18:07:05] <kolie> I could certainly apt install a host and tune it from scratch running on bare metal. I wouldn't want to maintain such a system in my free time thats for sure. I clean those kinds of messes up on a weekly basis for a lot of money and even then I barely like it :)
[18:07:46] <mrpg> Informative, thank you
[18:09:05] <kolie> Docker uses the host kernel.
[18:09:21] <kolie> so its like uhh, VM light.
[18:09:44] <kolie> I remember when docker was new, still using vms for chopping up workloads.
[18:10:06] <kolie> It wasn't bad, because memory specifically, if you ran all the same kernels, vms were really good about deduping mem across similar work loads
[18:10:10] <kolie> But it was a tad heavier.
[18:10:42] <kolie> Was worth the maintenance trade off in most cases. I think the only things we really considered for standalone, where bog standard DB installs, and exchange systems or domain controllers.
[18:12:20] <kolie> I did shared hosting on jails for years, and that sucked nad.
[18:12:26] <kolie> It's all we had for a minute.
[18:14:25] <kolie> For the rehash function for example, its one docker compose script, and it has three "services"/containers. rehash, varnish, mariadb.
[18:15:05] <kolie> The docker compose has some labels, with ports and services and domain names, that traefik, another service, picks up, gets the domain info, gets the letsencrypt certas, installs them, and sets up ports that redirect to the services.
[18:15:40] <kolie> So deploying testing, its just copying the docker-compose, changing the domain in it to testing, docker-compose up - and potentially feeding in data to maria, because its a fresh container with no data.
[18:16:28] <kolie> All the systems work is handled more or less in an automated fashion.
[18:16:56] <kolie> Backing up the data, because we setup the docker-compose to do this, all the persistent stuff is in /opt/compose-name/ on the main host
[18:17:13] <kolie> So you backup the docker-compose files, any meta data in there, in /opt/.
[18:17:30] <kolie> In theory, you can script that, and ship the data to another system, and it all comes back up.
[18:17:53] <kolie> IF it doesnt, you have a lot of info on how everything works, to get it working similarly.
[18:18:48] <kolie> Updating the infrastructure ideally looks like making a commit to a git repo of the service compose and dockerfiles, pulling that on prod, and composing the appropriate changes.
[18:36:00] <mrpg> Are you going to use one container or various
[18:36:03] <mrpg> '?
[18:37:05] <janrinok-znc> The whole package consists of a container for email, a container for IRC etc. They all run on 1 server.
[18:38:06] <kolie> multiple containers yea.
[18:39:00] <kolie> mail is on, mediawiki is one, kiwi-irc is one, monitoring service is one, rehash has one, irc has one, dns has one, I plan on putting loggie and stuff in one.
[18:39:17] <kolie> and when I say one, I mean a compose unit, rehash for example is three service/containers.
[18:39:44] <kolie> mediawiki is two, mediawiki itself and a maria instance.
[18:41:23] <kolie> ircd is four, services/atheme, solanum, znc, and a ircd shim I wrote. ( it handles proxying with ssl certs while relaying IP information correctly because of proxying )
[18:41:48] <kolie> ls
[18:42:47] <halibut_> bin boot dev etc home lib proc root sbin sys tmp usr var
[18:42:57] <halibut_> Hey! No fair peaking at my filesystem!
[18:43:02] <janrinok-znc> lol
[18:43:10] <halibut_> peaking -> peeking
[18:43:17] <janrinok-znc> you said you weren't going to check!
[18:43:39] <janrinok-znc> know your memes...
[18:45:55] * halibut_ returns from some quick Google searches ...
[18:46:00] <halibut_> Is that a JD Vance reference?
[18:48:19] <chromas> Who's that?
[18:48:31] <chromas> is that like a jojo reference?
[18:51:38] <fab23> so all eggs in one bucket?
[18:51:59] <fab23> I mean on one server?
[18:54:26] <kolie> Initially, and then all configs and stuff are being shipped off to a second machine.
[18:55:01] <kolie> The containers themselves have no problem being split up.
[18:55:10] <fab23> sure
[18:58:33] <janrinok-znc> Additionally, we will not hand back the Linode servers until we are happy everything is working.
[18:59:36] <kolie> I'm logged in from testing right now.
[19:00:06] <kolie> https://testing.soylentnews.org on ipv4 and ipv6 has a backup from the 25th loaded.
[19:00:07] <systemd> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[19:00:50] <janrinok-znc> I think that we only have one server for some services on Linode - that is one of the current problems. If it goes down we lose the site but it isn't easy to recover it.
[19:01:51] * janrinok-znc thinks you have to have the correct size of chicken bones and know the magic incantation to get it to work again...
[19:02:50] <mrpg> And the headless chicken must be pointing North 14°
[19:03:05] <janrinok-znc> I knew someone would know the secret!
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[19:33:04] * Ingar slits a goat's throath and sprinkles blood on everyone
[19:33:46] <Ingar> Ash nazg durbatulûk
[19:34:22] <janrinok-znc> Ingar, it seems a strange hobby to have but if you enjoy it you carry on! Thanks for the incantation though - I have been saying it wrong, I thought there was a w on the end of it...
[19:35:29] <Ingar> janrinok-znc: and that is why your connection kept failing
[19:35:59] <janrinok-znc> yeah, typical of me.....
[19:36:47] <Ingar> there are ancient powers in the universe not to be trifled with
[19:38:32] <janrinok-znc> don't worry, I wouldn't share my trifle with anyone.
[19:39:18] <janrinok-znc> do you ever eat trifle or is it something peculiarly British?
[19:48:28] <Ingar> I think so, I haven't seen it here
[19:48:37] <Ingar> similar deserts yes ofc
[19:48:41] <Ingar> this is belgium
[19:48:53] <Ingar> I had chocolate with my breakfast
[19:53:37] <janrinok-znc> I forgot to change the clocks last night and got up too early this morning! I have since compensated for my lack extra 1 hour sleep.
[19:54:05] <janrinok-znc> * lack of extra...
[19:57:51] <janrinok-znc> time for me to go. See you guys tomorrow I guess...
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[20:00:44] <mrpg> bye
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[20:16:21] <nonoffender> Some People's chickens are in the Southern Hemipearl, so directions may be incorrect.
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[20:23:55] <Ingar> why did the chicken cross the equator?
[20:29:16] <fab23> because of gravity
[20:29:50] <fab23> else it would have fallen off the planet on the equator :)
[21:10:36] janrinok-znc is now known as janrinok
[21:10:46] <kolie> janrinok, updated your znc
[21:52:38] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Polish Radio Station Ditches DJs, Journalists for AI-Generated College Kids - https://soylentnews.org - SN-editors-are-still-real-people-max-max-max-headroom
[21:57:15] <chromas> What stations even still have DJs?
[21:58:05] <chromas> You just have someone record some clips then the computer just sprinkles them through the playlist every few ads, and once in a while, a song
[22:15:14] <ted-ious> There are still a few dj's who go to work in the clearchannel offices every day.
[22:15:56] <ted-ious> What most people don't realize is that each one of them does the dj'ing for every city that has the same clear channel station.
[22:16:50] <ted-ious> Everybody used to think that allie the rock dj with the friendly voice was only in their town.
[22:17:57] <ted-ious> She recorded her 2 dozen spots for the day that went to every city then one or two for each major market if there was something worth mentioning happening there.
[22:18:32] <chromas> never heard of her
[22:18:59] <ted-ious> It makes sense that they'd get rid of more employees and just have one editor in charge of looking at all the text and let ai create the voices.
[22:19:07] <chromas> I haven't listened to our local rock station recently but they had male internet DJs :)
[22:19:34] <ted-ious> You probably did if you lived in a clearchannel market and listened to a rock station during the day or early evening.
[22:19:53] <ted-ious> I don't know how long ago she left.
[22:20:27] <ted-ious> I bet they will come out with an ai voice that sounds like her eventually tho.
[22:21:05] <chromas> Not sure about clearchannel but we have (or had, dunno) alexa communication, which is hard to find now that amazon took over the name
[22:22:19] <chromas> oh nevermind it's alexandra
[22:22:57] <chromas> ooh it's local
[22:24:22] <ted-ious> Your lucky. :)
[22:27:53] <chromas> heh, their domain's been taken over and redirects to scambling sites
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