#soylent | Logs for 2024-02-10
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[00:00:19] <chromas> "With the massive success of subscription-based business models, more organizations are looking to get in on the action by leveraging “servitization”—the combination of products and services into a single package.
[00:00:19] <chromas> To succeed, the goal of servitization must be more than just milking more money from customers."
[00:01:45] <chromas> Maybe the problem is we've strayed too far from the center of the universe and floating point precision is starting to take its toll.
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[06:15:50] <Runaway1956> chromas is a lamer - he still uses languages
[06:25:00] <chromas> Runaway1956's a lamer, using words like "lamer"
[06:25:27] <Runaway1956> lol
[06:25:49] <Runaway1956> why are you awake, don't you ever sleep?
[06:26:05] <chromas> sounds like work
[06:28:30] <kyonok> where is phil the fat
[06:29:18] <Runaway1956> I nudged him with an insult the other day - no response
[06:30:02] <Runaway1956> he's lurking in #shitlords
[06:30:05] <kyonok> ????
[06:30:15] <chromas> is that a unicode character?
[06:30:18] <chromas> ????
[06:30:23] <kyonok> yeah
[06:30:38] <chromas> �
[06:30:57] <kyonok> now i got the glyph
[06:31:43] <kyonok> its a diamond with a ? under linux mint debian edition
[06:32:13] <kyonok> it really does mount UFS file systems IF you try
[06:32:22] <kyonok> helps if its just like large lump tho
[06:32:32] <kyonok> no bsdlabel partitions within
[06:33:15] <chromas> that's the replacement character for whenever there's a borked unicode char or your font can't handle it
[06:33:51] <kyonok> its common on android
[06:34:03] <kyonok> need a more modern android phone, and android hardware (to go out)
[06:34:20] <kyonok> never had android blow up (crash) like PC's have done since the 1990's
[06:34:30] <kyonok> that is weird, since i own a chromebook and its shit
[06:34:44] <kyonok> remember that chromebook crashing commercial
[06:35:30] <kyonok> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com
[06:35:31] <systemd> ^ 03Funny Google Chromebook Ad Mocks Windows and macOS Operating Systems
[06:36:00] <chromas> never seen it
[06:36:09] <kyonok> i did
[06:36:13] <kyonok> you never saw it?
[06:36:22] <chromas> don't think I've even seen a chromebook ad
[06:36:27] <kyonok> i have
[06:36:28] <kyonok> a few
[06:36:31] <chromas> classic repost https://www.youtube.com
[06:36:31] <kyonok> and facebook ads
[06:36:32] <systemd> ^ 03John Mcaffee How To Uninstall McAfee Antivirus
[06:36:34] <kyonok> especially for portal
[06:36:43] <kyonok> you mean whackd?
[06:42:47] <chromas> systemd-whackd
[07:09:49] <kyonok> https://next.blackholeinc.com
[07:09:51] <kyonok> systemd-free
[07:09:54] <systemd> ^ 03Steve Jobs NeXT Cube
[07:09:58] <kyonok> some c and cpp required
[07:10:05] <kyonok> sorry no gcc
[11:10:07] <chromas> https://www.youtube.com
[11:10:08] <systemd> ^ 03Ode to Internet - V.90 56k dialup modem handshake for orchestra
[11:10:15] <chromas> " The applause at the end means the orchestra successfully connected with audience. "
[11:42:57] <chromas> https://www.youtube.com
[11:42:58] <systemd> ^ 03Breaking Bad - But no one is careful
[13:03:57] <fab23> drussell: "systemd and other system services (in)compatibility with Linux procfs hidepid (was: darkhttpd: timing attack and local leak of HTTP basic auth credentials)" https://www.openwall.com
[13:03:59] <systemd> ^ 03oss-security - systemd and other system services (in)compatibility with Linux procfs hidepid (was: darkhttpd: timing attack and local leak of HTTP basic auth credentials)
[13:08:31] <drussell> systemd... The gift that keeps on giving, just not in a good way...
[13:29:27] <fab23> drussell: the German "Gift" translates to poison, so all fine :)
[13:54:59] <drussell> How appropriate!
[13:55:48] <drussell> Pottering und sein systemd , das Gift, das immer weiter gibt.
[13:57:12] <drussell> Dude even full-on works for Microsoft now, apparently... After "microsofting" up Linux from within Red Hat for what, at least a decade, now there's not even any facade, he outright works at Microsoft now.
[14:04:06] <fab23> let him add systemd to Windows, it does not matter to me, I am a happy macOS (with launchd) and FreeBSD User.
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[15:25:48] <drussell> The problem is that systemd brought toxic Windows-ideas into the UNIX sphere, completely against the traditional UNIX philisophy, and fucked eveything up with his Microsoft-style enshitification! :(
[15:27:15] <requerdanos> That ongoing situation is why I suggest it may still be "too soon" for init system jokes, they hit too close to home!
[15:27:43] <drussell> (... and yes, I too am a BSDer, been using it as a hardcore addict since FreeBSD 1)
[15:27:56] <requerdanos> I use debian, systemd and all.
[15:28:18] <drussell> requerdanos yes, indeed... :)
[15:28:34] <drussell> requerdanos My condolences... haha :)
[15:29:17] <requerdanos> I submit the problem with systemd isn't any of its features or philosophies or design elements--people should be able to make whatever software they want. It's that so many darned distributions have adopted it to the exclusion of all else.
[15:30:17] <drussell> The problem is that it bloated into something that has it's poisonous tenticles in damn near everything now... Run amok!
[15:30:47] <requerdanos> i mean, systemd is free software, and it works. I just don't care for it.
[15:31:28] <drussell> Everything that came before it worked too...
[15:32:01] <requerdanos> the systemd folks would tell you that sysv init was broken for some complicated edge cases on servers.
[15:37:08] <fab23> drussell: oh, you started before me, I did with FreeBSD 2.x (don't remember, the first one after the license trouble they had)
[15:37:35] <fab23> requerdanos: you can remove systemd from Debian.
[15:38:00] <requerdanos> well, not easily, but yes debian works without systemd after you're done.
[15:38:28] <fab23> requerdanos: the big trouble with systemd is, that now some other free software depends on it and will not build any more if it is missing.
[15:38:43] <requerdanos> the `run amok` problem mentioned above.
[15:38:46] <fab23> requerdanos: its quite easy, have done that a long time ago.
[15:39:14] <fab23> all the *BSD and also some other unixoide OS are systemd-free
[15:39:34] <fab23> I also have Gentoo running without systemd
[15:41:50] <fab23> requerdanos: my notes from back then (a few easy steps): https://scratchy.ponz.ch
[15:41:52] <systemd> ^ 03PONZ IRC: Debian: Install sysvinit and remove systemd
[15:43:40] <requerdanos> I don't want to have to be on guard for the 'gotchas' of other software expecting systemd in place. I am just old enough to want my PC to just work, rather than enjoy working on it like a mechanic does a hot rod. sad but it's progress i guess.
[15:44:35] <fab23> requerdanos: I did it only on a server, not sure if I also would do it on a workstation
[16:41:07] <Fnord666> Commentary on systemd : https://xkcd.com
[16:41:08] <systemd> ^ 03Dependency
[16:45:09] <fab23> Fnord666: I think that systemd does not qualify, as it has big corporations behin. This would better match for something like curl, but Daniel is not from Nebraska. :)
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[19:27:08] <drussell> Yeah, while that is a great xkcd# and it applies to many projects, systemd is not one of them.
[19:28:10] <drussell> Yes, BSD is systemd free, but there are many features in recent software that simply aren't implemented on BSD due to requiring infrastructure that is only provided by systemd.
[19:29:07] <drussell> Now, luckily a lot of that has to do with "desktop" installations and various types of user-interactive work, not so much "server" roles, but it's still a terrible precident being set by the tentacles of systemd.
[19:32:20] <fab23> it is sad to see that the unioide 'keep it simple' and 'do one thing only' did not teach anything to the systemd crowd
[19:33:46] <fab23> s/unioide/unixoide/ :)
[19:34:08] <janrinok> I was trying to work out what that word should have been - I didn't guess it!
[19:37:00] <fab23> janrinok: sorry about that, already used it properly earlier today :)
[19:39:03] <janrinok> lol ! no apologies needed
[19:43:18] <drussell> Indeed. It fundamentally breaks one of the most basic UNIX philosophies of easily replaceable, simple widgets working between themselves to create a functioning system. Many modules and submodules were updated, rewritten, morphed and replaced over the decades, increasing the overall utility of the system for more and more types of tasks.
[19:44:24] <drussell> systemd fundamentally turned that principle on its head, turning what should be a simple, extensible, replaceable initialization system into something with tentacles into every god damn part of the system! :(
[19:46:36] <fab23> I wouldn't care if only RedHat would have done that for their own distribution, but for some strange reasons other distribution also jumped on it. Debian had a big discussion about it, but in the end also added it. :-( And Devuan as a fork did happen, but no idea how well they are doing.
[19:49:22] <fab23> If I do remember correctly, some of the deskop users liked it because of the magic it provided when you e.g. plugged in a USB device.
[21:10:51] <chromas> yep you can only blame the distros
[21:19:46] <chromas> Megaprojects have been part of unix forever. see X and emacs, for example
[21:44:22] <drussell> Those projects didn't take over multiple, major, fundamental operational spects of the base OS, though! :(
[21:45:08] <chromas> no reason you couldn't make your next project require emacs :D
[21:45:42] <drussell> An init system should have nothing to do with recognizing a USB mass storage device or camera. HALd, udev, devd, etc. may have been / be flawed, but for the most part, they didn't try to take over the whole damn system due to insane feature-creep.
[21:47:45] <chromas> What if you had a package called init that contained init as well as udev, at and cron?
[21:50:23] <chromas> or you call the package startup because it's a collection of programs that start other programs
[21:51:05] <fab23> just call it 'do-everything' :)
[21:51:56] <chromas> now hate it because those programs are all grouped into the same package by your distro :D
[21:55:15] <fab23> thats nice in FreeBSD, you have a complete base OS, and then you can install additional software through their Ports system.
[21:55:48] <chromas> doesn't sound like "do one thing" ;)
[21:56:11] <chromas> The real problem with systemd isn't how it's built or the fact that other devs chose to depend on it, it's the parts people forgot about: weaseling their way into the distros, like debian
[21:57:39] <fab23> chromas: it does, you still have the option to only install what you need in the base OS, OPNsense (which is FreeBSD based) does build pkg even for each component of the base system
[21:59:27] <chromas> well in that case, we could package systemd without nspawn and gummiboot, but nobody does
[22:00:01] <fab23> not sure about Debian, let me check
[22:01:21] <fab23> https://scratchy.ponz.ch
[22:01:23] <systemd> ^ 03PONZ IRC: Debian 12 (bookworm) sytemd packages
[22:02:28] <chromas> perl? >:(
[22:04:23] <fab23> maybe more useful https://scratchy.ponz.ch
[22:04:24] <systemd> ^ 03PONZ IRC: Debian 12 (bookworm) available systemd packages
[22:07:43] <chromas> well there you go. it's modular
[22:08:36] <fab23> I guess that this packages will mostly get pulled in as dependency
[22:10:55] <chromas> I forgot about bootchart
[22:11:30] <chromas> there was a brief moment of "OMG systemd has SVG support!"
[22:11:37] <chromas> muh bloats
[22:12:52] <chromas> fstrim is the biggest time hog for me; 47s
[22:23:04] <chromas> well since the systemd discussion died off before I got here, how about some x vs wayland?
[22:25:33] <chromas> I say X12 would have been the correct move. Strip out all the old stuff while still keeping compatibility with all the modern software. Losing some compatibility with old projects is better than making every piece of software have to be rewritten
[22:27:54] <chromas> With X, you can restart your window manager without reloading your entire session. with wayland, you could do that if you pass all your sockets and stuff into the next instance; I wonder if any do that though
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[23:30:08] <chromas> https://www.youtube.com
[23:30:09] <systemd> ^ 03Star Wars Minus Williams - Throne Room
[23:49:20] <chromas> https://www.youtube.com
[23:49:21] <systemd> ^ 03STAR WARS Reimagined: The Empire Strikes Back
[23:49:25] <chromas> "It is not an exaggeration to say the empire might not exist without the actions of R2-D2."