#soylent | Logs for 2024-02-04
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[00:08:02] <mrpg> https://www.youtube.com
[00:08:27] <mrpg> Guns N' Roses - Don't Cry
[01:12:02] <mrpg> My laptop is gotten soo slooow, im this close [4 inches] to buying an used one in the fruits market, amd ryzen 5. I gotta resist the urge.
[01:12:15] <mrpg> bye see you soon hopefully
[01:12:21] <mrpg> \&quit
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[01:44:47] <soylentil86> I can't be the first but I'm getting a expired certificate error for soylentnews.org
[01:46:24] <soylentil86> SSL Certificate expired on: Feb 3 15:38:06 2024 GMT
[01:49:48] <ted-ious> Yes many people have stopped by to say that thanks. :)
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[02:55:22] <chromas> Someone needs to invent dns-based cert authorities already
[02:59:44] <drussell> Are we taking wagers as to whether we will be certificateless for a full 24h? beyond?!
[03:04:09] <chromas> I bet 67 Internets
[03:04:27] <chromas> I guess I'm thinking of DANE
[03:08:53] <Gaaark> I wager 500 quatloos
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[03:15:22] <chromas> Which Star wars that from? Trek or Wars?
[03:15:43] <chromas> Phone keyboard ruined the message
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[04:02:47] <drussell> Quatloos are from the gladiator contest episode of the original Star Trek (TOS)
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[04:44:06] <Runaway1956> chromas - DNA based certs would be more interesting. You give a vial of blood at each recert. Further, you use a quill pen to sing the contract with that blood. Mephistopheles Instant Certification Service.
[04:46:52] <Runaway1956> I think it would be based in Rome, competing against Baal Certifications in Babylon.
[04:50:31] <Runaway1956> Oh yeah, who's that Indian Destroyer god - errr, goddes? Yeah, you bet your arse the Indians would be up for that gig.
[04:53:16] <Runaway1956> Shiva - that's the girl.
[05:08:37] <chromas> DNA isn't science anymore though
[05:09:14] <ted-ious> mrna is science but chromosomes are not.
[05:09:26] <chromas> drussell: maybe I was thinking of Kuato
[05:09:27] <ted-ious> So I guess dna is somewhere in the gray zone.
[05:20:23] <ted-ious> Etymology[edit]
[05:20:25] <ted-ious> Spoken form of the biblical Tamara (“Tamar”), though it can also be construed as ka (“the”) + mala (“aching; sour”).
[05:20:32] <ted-ious> The aching.
[05:20:55] <ted-ious> I certainly didn't know that before tonight.
[05:21:03] <ted-ious> https://en.wiktionary.org
[05:21:35] <ted-ious> Why would her tamil mother give her that name?
[05:38:31] <chromas> Kamala, at Tamara. Her arms wide open
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[08:44:47] <janrinok> ALL - audioguy will not be home until Monday 1400 US time (idk the timezone). He cannot fix the certs before then.
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[10:01:39] <soylentil89> Attackers might be trying to steal your information from soylentnews.org (for example, passwords, messages, or credit cards).
[10:01:39] <soylentil89> NET::ERR_CERT_DATE_INVALID
[10:01:40] <soylentil89> This is the message I get when trying to access SoylentNews ... Do others get the same message ??
[10:02:41] <ted-ious> Yes the cert expired and the admins aren't available to fix it yet.
[10:03:20] <soylentil89> Thanks for your confirmation ...
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[10:05:37] <Ingar> attackers jsut try to steal _your_ information
[10:05:57] <Ingar> heartattackus
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[10:23:21] <drussell> Gadzooks!! That'll be a lot of quatloos! 😲
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[10:34:12] <pTamok> I suggest an editor put up a 'Meta' topic saying we know of the problem, and relaying janrinok's update: "<janrinok> ALL - audioguy will not be home until Monday 1400 US time (idk the timezone). He cannot fix the certs before then. ". Fix time will be 'some time' after Monday 14:00 US-time (unknown timezone).
[10:37:19] <drussell> ... unless we can find Kolie or someone else with keys to the server, that is...
[10:52:12] <pTamok> That could be added to the informative text. As I mentioned before, having an independent soylentnewsstatus.org could be helpful. I'm sure we have people who would be willing to host such a thing; and there are commercial offerings.
[10:57:18] <drussell> I wasn's really meaning to suggest to add that, I was more just informing you that Monday at 2 is sort of the latest that the site should be back up and running
[10:57:46] <drussell> There are other people with access, just none that are paying attention or have net access or whatever right now.
[10:58:27] <drussell> I think it is pointless to extend the issues to having another site, just to say what is wrong with the primary site.
[10:58:50] <drussell> We already have IRC, we have the servers that host the wiki, we have the IRC logs, etc. etc.
[10:59:33] <drussell> This is just silly. The site should not just break likefor reasons like this...
[11:00:55] <drussell> For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
[11:00:56] <drussell> For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
[11:00:56] <drussell> For want of a horse the rider was lost.
[11:00:56] <drussell> For want of a rider the message was lost.
[11:00:56] <drussell> For want of a message the battle was lost.
[11:00:56] <drussell> For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
[11:00:58] <drussell> And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
[11:18:53] <janrinok> pTamok, how do I post a Meta? I am locked out of the server as you are. Without the html displays we cannot post anything.
[11:20:42] <janrinok> drussell, we have contacted k0lie. His response is that the admins can fix it! The last 6 months of Governance have driven many staff away. He doesn't seem to realise that his reluctance to submit his Bylaws was the last straw for many of us. The one active sysadmin, audioguy, is not home until tomorrow.
[11:22:29] <pTamok> janrinok - I'm not locked out. I don't know why not, but my Firefox on Linux allows me to click through a warning message and access the site. I can also access using the Dillo browser, which gives me warning messages and shows content. I don't use Chrome/chromium. If, as an editor, you don't have access, then obviously you can't do stuff.
[11:23:05] <janrinok> I have tried clicking through - it doesn't work for me.
[11:24:02] <janrinok> I'm currently trying my 4th browser.
[11:24:30] <janrinok> I don't think that any other staff have got in either but I cannot see who is on the site at the moment.
[11:24:41] <pTamok> I appreciate drussell's point about not wanting to maintain another site - a putative soylentnewsstatus.org. If nothing else, as slightly more prominent link to IRC/the IRC logs might help. Just trying to make useful/helpful suggestions.
[11:25:56] <janrinok> I appreciate your contributions.
[11:27:40] <pTamok> Yes, it is irritating that I don't know what it is in my set-up that is allowing things to 'work'. I wish I did so I could advise. My FF setup has a number of non-default settings, but none of them look like they are the obvious reason I can see things, I have been posting on @Runaway1956 's journal entry "The site is down because certs expired".
[11:29:13] <pTamok> Other posters are @Gaaark and Anonymous Coward
[11:31:13] <drussell> Seamonkey works for me here, BTW janrinok... It still allows you to easily add an exception.
[11:31:23] <janrinok> I have tried using lynx to access our management pages but it is essentially unusable - the site, and particularly the management functions, is designed around graphical html.
[11:32:12] <janrinok> I cannot even get a response from the site using my own local software which normally runs 24/7
[11:36:18] <pTamok> @Runaway1956 says in his journal entry that: "I am logged in, and posting on Librewolf 120.0.1-1"
[11:38:13] <janrinok> I AM IN! Epihany Browser
[11:38:40] <chromas> this is why hsts is dumb
[11:38:58] <chromas> who's a web server to decide if I can connect to it or not?
[11:39:14] <chromas> or to tell my computer to not connect
[11:41:13] <drussell> I agree... Why shouldn't I be able to fire up a 286 and connect with NCSA Moasic? It wouldn't understand CSS, but I would think SN should theoretically work even with an ancient browser, if we weren't trying to force encrypted connections, etc.
[11:41:41] <pTamok> Well done @janrinok.
[11:41:47] <chromas> fortunately it can be turned off I guess
[11:42:07] <chromas> network.stricttransportsecurity.preloadlist
[11:42:56] <pTamok> The site almost works in Dillo - which is good, as Dillo doesn't (currently) support javascript, although it should be supporting CSS properly.
[11:42:59] <chromas> butt it still caches the hsts entry, so either go and delete or go into history and "forget about this site" which also nukes the login session
[11:45:38] <pTamok> If the mechanism uses a stored (cached) entry, then Digital Rights Management issues aside, one ought to be able to just delete the entry from the store/cache, which may or may not delete any cached login session.
[11:47:22] <pTamok> I preferred the 'Perspectives' approach to checking certificates. Independent brokers that kept a record of website certificates. Your browser checked with the brokers, and told you if the cert had recently changed. It made MITM difficult.
[11:48:18] <chromas> NCSA vs Spyglass Mosaics...fight!
[11:51:30] <pTamok> More details on the (defunct) Perspectives project: https://web.archive.org
[11:53:14] <janrinok> META should be hitting the screens any minute now
[11:53:38] <pTamok> Great! Well done, and thank-you.
[11:53:40] <drussell> Nobody sane would actually ever use Spyglass or IE. It was real (NCSA) Mosaic, then Netscape. :)
[11:54:27] <chromas> no way; you'd have to use X and that's outdated
[11:55:51] <pTamok> Not there yet. Not that I'm obsessively refreshing my browser page or anything.
[11:56:24] <pTamok> It is now.
[11:56:51] <chromas> The most important feature of Netscape was copying the url from a bookmark would end the string with a 0xFF for some reason
[11:57:38] <drussell> Well, this was on Windows 3.1... As soon as FreeBSD appeared I moved to that, but that obviously only worked on 386 and up, my bedroom PC was still a 286, so Windows 3.1 it was with Mosaic until I swapped out that MB.
[11:57:41] <pTamok> As proof that I can see it, the posting starts off with the sentence: "Many of you will have experienced the problems with the expired certificates. "
[11:58:45] <chromas> apparently "forget this website" also removes passwords and stuff
[11:59:17] <chromas> so even though it's an option in the history view, it extends beyond just deleting history
[12:01:29] <pTamok> Would it be a good idea to point people at the IRC log and this IRC channel in the :Meta: entry? I'm in two minds, as I know we don't want lots of people turning up and asking the same questions repeatedly, as it is not constructive.
[12:02:03] <chromas> just edit the post to say "if you can read this then the problem is fixed"
[12:03:09] <pTamok> Hardly: I can read the post because my browser is not respecting HSTS. Worryingly, I don't know *why*. But it is convenient.
[12:03:57] <drussell> Didn't you at least have to at least manually say "OK, Proceed" or add an exception or something?
[12:04:34] <pTamok> Yes, I had to add an exception, which was a two-click process.
[12:05:40] <chromas> Are you using a proxy?
[12:07:00] <pTamok> I now get a very small warning triangle with an exclamation mark in it superimposed on the padlock symbol in the browser, which if I float my mouse over it has a label that says "You have added a security exception for this site."
[12:07:09] <pTamok> No, I am not using a proxy.
[12:08:36] <pTamok> There are probably one, or several browser config settings that are involved. The list of non-default settings in my set-up is l-o-n-g.
[12:15:14] <pTamok> And as well as Dillo, I just tried NetSurf. That gives me a warning also, but lets me in. Hv3 works with some layout problems ***BUT DOES NOT GIVE A CERTIFICATE WARNING***. Gnome 'Web' also works, gives me a warning, but allows click-through.
[12:17:56] <pTamok> I have found it useful in the past to have a selection of browsers available for testing/debug purposes.
[12:25:17] <pTamok> Just to be clear "env | grep proxy" is blank, and the FF config setting network.proxy-type is set to zero, which means "Direct connection, no proxy." see http://kb.mozillazine.org
[12:26:13] <pTamok> And there is no proxy on my Internet-access router, or on the infrastructure between my PC and the router.
[12:28:14] <pTamok> There are now two comments on the Meta posting, one from put own drussell, and one from Roscoe P. Coltrane.
[12:29:05] <pTamok> So I guess we wait patiently, and I go back to doing what I should be doing. I'm trying to have a break from posting.
[12:43:20] <janrinok> I've updated the story queue, so you should see the next 4 stories come on roughly on time.
[12:44:40] <pTamok> Thank-you for doing that, janrinok
[12:45:17] <janrinok> np - now _that_ is part of my job :)
[12:50:17] <drussell> :) LOL...
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[14:32:46] <Runaway1956> FWIW, my IRC client (Hexchat) lost connection overnight, couldn't reconnect due to certs.
[14:33:09] <Runaway1956> I simply went into the connection, told it to accept invalid certs, and here I am again.
[14:33:18] <fab23> :)
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[16:37:23] <soylentil14> Hey hey, is help from the community in regards to the certificate issue needed, or is it more of a "we're waiting for the only person with access" type of thing?
[16:41:10] <drussell> The latter
[16:41:35] <soylentil14> ok then :)
[16:41:49] <drussell> Well, there are two people with access that were contacted, but they refused to help.
[16:42:22] <drussell> Depending on your browser, you can add an exception temporarily to be able to access the site.
[16:43:23] <drussell> Monday afternoon is the curent ETA for someone with keys to the servers to be back.
[16:43:43] <soylentil14> Bummer! Well in case there need to be more fallback options I'd be happy to lend some helping hands.
[16:45:17] <drussell> What browser are you using?
[16:46:26] <soylentil14> Ungoogled chromium and Firefox
[16:47:08] <drussell> Chromium should just work... You can just click through the exception, I believe...
[16:47:51] <soylentil14> yeah no worries, I'm not bothering by the issue, was just wondering if there's help needed
[16:48:38] <drussell> No, it's all well known, just nobody with the appropriate access is avalable *AND*and willing to actually do it.
[16:48:49] <drussell> lol.. andand
[16:49:08] <soylentil14> heh I see, okay then
[16:49:17] <drussell> No worries. :)
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[17:29:03] <janrinok> drussell, k0lie is saying that he does NOT have access
[17:32:50] <drussell> Well, then I guess he's off the hook, so to speak... :)
[17:33:13] <drussell> Does that mean AudioGuy and NCommander are the only people who even have access?!
[17:34:23] <janrinok> that have access and know what to do - there is a difference there.
[17:35:36] <janrinok> The cert configuration is, I believe, 'somewhat unusual'. It has to be transferred to other places (IRC, etc) which are not all on the same box.
[17:38:07] <janrinok> But not my area, so you will be better off asking audioguy when he is back. There is a reluctance to do any remedial work if it is going to be deleted as our last efforts were. There used to be a fully documented procedure but the system was reconfigured over a year ago.
[17:47:43] <drussell> Yeah, I manually renew my certs here too then just sftp them around to the various servers...
[17:53:20] <janrinok> Which brings me to the next issue - we had a system of logging in once and then moving around the servers easily. That is also now broken as a result of the 'upgrade'.
[17:53:58] <fab23> I have fully automated it for multiple certificates and also distributed to multiple servers and services. A bunch of shell scripts around LEGO with wildcard certificates done through the DNS challange.
[17:55:22] <janrinok> Yes, we know how to do it. But to fix the security problems that were broken by the 'upgrade', to rewrite the scripts so that they work with the new security, and to then document it is pointless if someone wants to come along a change it all again.
[17:56:08] <janrinok> And that takes us right back to this time last year....
[17:57:54] <fab23> it is sad to see this
[17:58:40] <janrinok> And we have wasted many manhours in writing Bylaws and having meetings simply because somebody who admits that he no longer has in interest in this site wants to be able to tell us how to organise the next one.
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[18:17:22] <soylentil16> janrinok's version of his destruction of the governance committee is, um, interesting, to say the least!
[18:32:27] <janrinok> I haven't destroyed any committee. I haven't asked anyone to leave. I haven't told anyone to leave. People can leave if they wish or stay. It it not my decision what they do. However, I do object to being asked to jump through hoops to fill someone else's expectations.
[18:34:38] <janrinok> I have been involved in writing 7 of the 8 sets of Bylaws. I have made my contribution. Usually, I will not write something that I do not believe in, but in the last case I gave my help reluctantly. Those Bylaws were acceptable. Why has no-one create a company then?
[18:35:15] <janrinok> I suggest that you now document your own contribution. Go on, I will wait....
[18:40:02] <janrinok> we offered a perfectly legal proffer at the very beginning - it was rejected.
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[18:42:27] <janrinok> soylentil16, I assume you are a slow typist?
[18:42:56] <soylentil9> I was just checking if somebody has already reported the SSL cert expiration.
[18:44:07] <janrinok> yes it is well known thanks - been down for about a day. There is a Meta about it if you have one of the few browsers that ignore the certs. Should be addressed tomorrow at about 1400 PST.
[18:44:38] <soylentil9> OK. Good to know it's going to be fixed soon.
[18:44:53] <janrinok> I have found that Epiphany Browser lets you get onto the site - but it hasn't got all the bells and whistles off course.
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[18:48:00] <dx3bydt3> I was able to get on using Firefox
[18:48:32] <dx3bydt3> I had to clear cookies and cache, reload and then I was able to "proceed anyway"
[18:48:38] <janrinok> yes, some have and some haven't - I had no success
[18:49:11] <soylentil88> ot this with old Iron browser: Your connection is not private
[18:49:12] <soylentil88> Attackers might be trying to steal your information from soylentnews.org (for example, passwords, messages, or credit cards). Learn more
[18:49:12] <soylentil88> NET::ERR_CERT_DATE_INVALID
[18:49:13] <soylentil88> To get Chrome’s highest level of security, turn on enhanced
[18:49:14] <dx3bydt3> actually I think on the first reload, the options were still greyed out. it was weird.
[18:49:52] <soylentil88> Firefox gave me that date was set to 2-3 and I said go anyway and got on...
[18:50:22] <soylentil88> Sites date, not mine
[18:52:48] <dx3bydt3> I just tried Lynx for fun. It gave a prompt indicating the expired certificate, and asked proceed y/n
[18:53:29] <drussell> On FireFox you can just use a new, blank profile instead of tossing your cookies and logins.
[18:53:44] <drussell> about:profiles or firefox.exe -P
[18:54:06] <drussell> (or firefox -p on BSD/linux)
[18:54:10] <drussell> -P
[18:54:50] <dx3bydt3> I'd imagine a private window would work too.
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[18:56:04] <janrinok> Yes - it does! I hadn't thought of that, thanks
[18:58:47] <drussell> Weird... A private windows does NOT work for me here on 115.7.0/esr
[18:59:01] <drussell> I have to use a different profile
[18:59:26] <dx3bydt3> That is odd, isn't a private window essentially a temporary blank profile?
[18:59:36] <drussell> (Which I always have available for a second instance.... I keep a shortcut to "firefox -private -P "minimal""
[18:59:52] <drussell> No, it can still see your saved info, bookmarks, etc.
[19:00:06] <drussell> It just deletes all new cookies, etc from that instance.
[19:00:13] <drussell> I mean WINDOW, not INSTANCE...
[19:00:24] <drussell> Starting a second firefox with a different profile works.
[19:00:35] <drussell> (if it doesn't have saved soylentnews.org info)
[19:01:20] <drussell> That's why I run my private windows in a second instance of firefox, using a separate profile I've named "minimal"
[19:01:56] <drussell> Again, I'm running the ESR version, though... YMMV
[19:06:42] <drussell> Uh oh!
[19:06:57] <drussell> A comment just disappeared when I tried to moderate it! How the fuck is THAT possible?!
[19:08:38] <Bytram> Hi everyone. I've exchanged several TXT messages with Kolie. Unfortunately, it's been so long between the time I last did certs and then my 3 strokes, that I am unable to proceed. Like HOW do I ssh to beryllium?
[19:08:44] <Bytram> Sorry!
[19:09:05] <drussell> It was the 16th comment on the Meta... Some high user number (like 40,000+) with a +1 score, they basically said "Kudos to those who keep the site running" and I tried to moderate it +1 Touche, and it DISAPPEARED... How can THAT happen?!
[19:09:05] <Bytram> Time for breakfast!
[19:09:06] <janrinok> drussell, I deleted it - it is ari exploiting the cert problems with sock puppets
[19:09:12] <drussell> OH, ok...
[19:09:16] <drussell> Nevermind then
[19:09:46] <drussell> No worries, Bytram...
[19:09:51] <janrinok> the username was webcamtape - he is just seeing what he can get away with
[19:10:19] <drussell> Yeah, yeah... No problem, janrinok... I was just worried that the database was eating itself or something.
[19:10:22] <drussell> Carry on. :)
[19:10:30] <soylentil16> Shadowbanning is the new black?
[19:11:13] <drussell> All of Ari's multiple personalities are still banned, #16... Looking for a /kick?
[19:11:46] <soylentil16> Who is Ari?
[19:12:17] <drussell> Ahh.. Ok, you're /ignored
[19:12:42] <drussell> I should have known... Silly me.
[19:13:51] <Bytram> soylentil16: : if you have nothing constructive to contribute to the discussion, I suggest you STFU. I am in *NO* mood for it.
[19:13:55] <janrinok> see - never let your guard down.
[19:15:16] <soylentil16> Paranoia is not a good look for a news aggregation website!
[19:15:18] <drussell> #16 is an Ari clone.
[19:15:47] <drussell> I just closed my /msg window and /ignored him for now... Tisk tisk... What a maroon.
[19:16:37] <janrinok> You, on the other hand, are an excellent example of a childish idiot.
[19:16:55] <janrinok> soylentil16, ^^
[19:17:17] <soylentil16> I was wondering who/what you are talking about.
[19:22:52] <Bytram> soylentil16: and your behavior IS a good look? Just try me. Behave, or face the consequences of your actions.
[19:23:38] <Bytram> This is your fine warning.
[19:24:00] <Bytram> Oops. This is your final warning.
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[19:28:50] soylentil16 is now known as aristarchus
[19:30:43] <aristarchus> I was happy with the fine warning. You always used to be so genteel, Bytram!
[19:32:48] <Bytram> Well, let's just say I have learned over the years... Be nice and polite.
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[20:17:08] <soylentil10> Is anyone aware that the certs have expired?
[20:18:04] <janrinok> yes, thank you. Been struggling for about a day now. Will not be fixed until tomorrow pm
[20:19:11] <janrinok> Some browsers can still get through. Private windows appear to work. Epiphany, PaleMoon and some versions of FF seem to cope.
[20:20:06] <janrinok> Windows users seem to be able to get through - but why am I not surprised by that....?
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[21:25:45] <drussell> The behavior of FireFox here is the same on Windows 7 and FreeBSD 14, I'm not sure what the operating system would have to do with it... ? Opera also lets me through with two clicks...
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