#soylent | Logs for 2023-10-04
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[00:00:32] <mrpg> There is no deb packae in ubuntu.... welcome to the snap ecosystem... of tomorrow!!!!!!!!
[00:00:43] <ted-ious> That's terrible.
[00:01:00] <ted-ious> I didn't realize ubuntu had become that bad.
[00:01:20] <ted-ious> I guess I don't need to download any more of those dvd images.
[00:01:36] <mrpg> Firefox is also a snap
[00:01:44] <mrpg> stupid humans!!!!
[00:01:45] <mrpg> https://www.youtube.com
[00:01:47] <systemd> ^ 03PLAN NINE: "Your Stupid Minds! Stupid! Stupid!"
[00:03:13] <mrpg> And poor me changing permissions and creating dirs, oohhh stupid minds!!
[00:03:29] <mrpg> it's ok now, Bard helped me.
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[04:45:25] <chromas> ubuntu00
[04:45:27] <chromas> ubuntu--
[04:45:34] <chromas> dang'ol decrement
[04:46:02] <progo> I heard Ubuntu is building in full disk encryption tied to a TPM if you have one
[04:47:26] <progo> janrinok about working on Soylent's appearance on small screens, and "we still don't have full control" -- no problem. when the time is right in the future and if I don't have to learn to speak in tongues (perl) I might be able to make the handheld experience better
[04:47:51] <chromas> nothin' wrong with that, as long as it's optional
[04:48:07] <progo> yeah seems like a good idea
[04:48:17] <chromas> progo: you can probably get away with mostly css wrangling
[04:48:19] <progo> pretty sure there's nothing weird and creepy about a TPM you have full control over
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[08:39:26] <aaristarchus> =submit https://www.ft.com
[08:39:28] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Britain is Europe’s Haven From the Hard Right" (7p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[08:40:16] <aaristarchus> =sub https://brooklynrail.org
[08:40:18] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Soda Jerks Hello Dankness" (6p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[08:41:06] <aaristarchus> =asub https://www.nytimes.com
[08:41:07] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Arnold Schwarzenegger is Here to Pump You Up (Emotionally)" (0p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[08:43:20] <aaristarchus> =submit white janrinok https://speka.media
[08:43:22] <systemd> ✓* Sub-ccess! "08Ринок праці В IT В Україні: як змінилася ситуація У 2023 ро" (2p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[09:04:23] <aaristarchus> =sub https://www.washingtonpost.com
[09:04:24] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03The Reagan Administration Labeled a Film ‘Propaganda.’ It Won an Oscar." (20p) -> https://soylentnews.org
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[09:07:09] <janrinok> The last one can stay. We will see if any editor thinks it worth publishing.
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[13:44:31] <requerdanos> =asub https://www.theverge.com
[13:44:32] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Nintendo’s Wii U and 3DS Online Services Will Shut Down in April" (12p) -> https://soylentnews.org
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[14:15:22] <progo> finally caught that fucking MS Teams attention buster in the browser debug screen, and learned a new word for a UI darkpattern
[14:15:23] <progo> https://boop.city
[14:15:24] <systemd> ^ 03progo in NYC (@progo@boop.city)
[14:15:36] <progo> > Coachmarks are when you know what you want to do in a program, and instead of being allowed to get to the task, you have to click/tap targets all over the screen to acknowledge unrelated help information.
[14:16:02] <progo> Teams does this to you in EVERY phone call
[14:16:22] <progo> picks a random element and puts a balloon on it. "hey! this function is here"
[14:16:40] <progo> doesn't matter if you use the meeting function 4x per day for a month. keeps doing it
[14:16:41] <chromas> does that include things like a blocking Chrome popup to tell me a website wants my location?
[14:17:09] <progo> that's UI element is a request for access so I wouldn't call it a coachmark
[14:17:13] <progo> but it's similarly annoying
[14:17:17] <progo> should be a status bar icon
[14:17:33] <chromas> it shouldn't block access to the page too
[14:17:43] <progo> I AGREE
[14:18:13] <chromas> in firefox I can click around in the page and the notification just becomes an icon, but in chrome (last time I noticed) you can't do anything in the browser until interacting with the poopup
[14:18:38] <chromas> in fact, I think it blocks the entire browser, not just that one page
[14:19:32] <progo> in a Teams meeting, the coachmarks are non-blocking but they APPEAR as a high priority message from the system. it's fatiguing to receive a high priority system message that says "this feature you already know about is here"
[14:20:00] <progo> during a phone call
[14:20:01] <progo> jfc
[14:20:30] <progo> that UI treatment should be for "can't open your mic"
[14:20:43] <chromas> I wonder if there's an extension or something to nuke that
[14:21:05] <chromas> is teams a browser application?
[14:21:09] <progo> I lifted from the debugger: banning css selector "#tooltip-coachmark" ought to do it
[14:21:10] <progo> I did so
[14:21:14] <chromas> electron or something
[14:21:14] <progo> we'll see if it works next meeting
[14:21:23] <progo> I use Brave
[14:21:29] <progo> banning a CSS selector, per site, is built-in
[14:21:46] <progo> I'm forced to use all the Office 365 apps in a browser (of my choosing)
[14:22:03] <chromas> I think pidgin has a teams plugin. if I used teams I'd see how it compares
[14:22:10] <progo> Teams is also delivered as an Electron app. same code AFAIK
[14:22:17] <chromas> I'm sorry for your loss
[14:22:25] <chromas> at least it's not zoom
[14:22:48] <chromas> I only want the NSA spying on me, not China too. America first!
[14:23:26] <progo> the courts must go on, during the pandemic. China provides Zoom. everyone loves Zoom. Courts adopt zoom
[14:23:28] <progo> everyone winds
[14:23:30] <progo> *wins
[14:24:12] <progo> at least Zoom isn't promoting garbage and demoting wholesome communication like Tiktok
[14:24:18] <progo> do you know in China Tiktok is the reverse?
[14:24:21] <progo> it's a psy-op
[14:34:04] <chromas> reverse of what? it's a psy-op here too
[14:34:36] <progo> USA tiktok: promotes garbage and demotes wholesome communication
[14:34:36] <progo> China tiktol: promotes wholesome communication and demotes garbage
[14:34:39] <chromas> one nice thing I can say about lawyers is that they know WordPerfect is the superiorer word processor
[14:34:44] <progo> by design. I'm saying it's a psyop in general
[14:35:07] * progo writes memos and diaries in VS Code
[14:35:22] <chromas> I'm sorry for your loss
[14:35:25] <chromas> at least it's not zoom
[14:35:31] <chromas> :D
[14:37:07] <chromas> hm, should I set up my own masturbadon server? I don't microblog but it's the trendy thing to do now
[14:39:05] <progo> that URL I shared, has 2 users. my friend and me. she set it up because our home turf big server is ignored by too many servers
[14:39:23] <progo> I joined when it became more apparent that our previous admin is quite a dick
[14:39:34] <progo> I provide her with an always-on IRC client in return
[14:39:53] <progo> managed hosted Mastodon is like $10/month or less
[14:40:20] <progo> Veronica Explains says that 50 to 100 is the best size for a social jerk off server
[14:40:28] <progo> "should you setup your OWN server? probably not."
[14:44:54] <progo> I'm not good with languages, but I think someone outside is playing French language metal music
[14:45:29] <progo> or hard rock
[14:47:28] <ted-ious> chromas: Are you talking about this? https://en.wikipedia.org
[14:47:29] <systemd> ^ 03WordPerfect - Wikipedia
[14:48:11] <progo> yes. I remember in college 1998 to 2002 or so, there were a few professors who refused to let go of WordPerfect 5 for DOS as the center of their writing workflow
[14:48:33] <progo> I think it took some cajoling to get it to work on Windows 2000
[14:49:25] <ted-ious> I got exctited for a minute that there might be a new foss word processor.
[14:49:42] <progo> abiword's web site was dead, last time I checked
[14:49:53] <progo> yep. still dead
[14:49:55] <progo> no idea how long
[14:51:56] <chromas> Yes, WordPerfect > Ms Word
[14:52:02] <chromas> also Quattro Pro
[14:52:23] <progo> commonmark in a text editor is the best way to compose text
[14:52:32] <chromas> But Excel animates the cell pointer movement now so it's pretty good too I guess
[14:54:53] <progo> I need to have another go at setting up a NextCloud + LibreOffice Online server
[14:55:01] <chromas> hm so commonmark is markdown
[14:55:17] <progo> I'm all in on client-server "office suites", as long as the purported owner of the data owns the server itself
[14:55:47] <progo> Markdown is an inconsistent Perl script by a hacker who REFUSED to write a spec. CommonMark is the spec that other people wrote
[14:55:58] <progo> but yeah, commonly called Markdown
[14:56:26] <chromas> oh so it's like IRC ;)
[14:56:32] <progo> exactly
[14:56:40] <chromas> no specifications
[14:56:58] <chromas> Does the desktop version of libreoffice support multiple users per document?
[14:56:59] <progo> periodic reminder, negotiation: we're all speaking UTF-8, right? the protocol doesn't know or care
[14:57:03] <progo> :^)
[14:57:26] <chromas> it doesn't have to care because the bottom of of utf-8 is the same as ascii
[14:57:34] <chromas> s/of/end/
[14:57:58] <progo> chromas uhm… maybe? I dunno. if you install LibreOffice Online in NextCloud, LibreOffice for your desktop can read and write files in one go from NextCloud. not sure about shared editing unless you use the web client
[14:58:17] <progo> I'm fairly certain NextCloud + LibreOffice Online has shared editing in web clients, built in
[14:58:47] <chromas> I hate myself enough already; no need to use a web browser for my spreadsheets
[14:59:00] <chromas> oh I already have to for work. Jesus wept.
[14:59:00] <ted-ious> progo: What is a libreoffice online server?
[14:59:06] <progo> eventually we're going to rename "web browser" to "terminal" :^)
[14:59:25] <ted-ious> Is it like google docs for editing your own files?
[14:59:36] <chromas> yes
[14:59:48] <progo> ted-ious it's a container you install on your file sharing platform that runs the full LibreOffice suite SERVER-SIDE. the web client is a fancy dumb terminal running in your browser
[15:00:01] <ted-ious> Wow neat!
[15:00:06] <progo> the fonts and widgets and everything are all rendered server-side
[15:00:30] <ted-ious> Can it do multiple users editing the same documents like google?
[15:00:36] <progo> yes
[15:00:58] <ted-ious> Maybe I should ask if there's any reason to use google docs instead of this?
[15:01:00] <progo> you can run it on your own server and own the whole thing, Internet access not required
[15:01:08] <progo> lol
[15:01:21] <progo> "I don't know how to setup a server and I don't want to pay for someone to set one up" is why to use Google Docs
[15:01:34] <ted-ious> Right. :)
[15:02:04] <ted-ious> But besides integrating with gmail which you also shouldn't be using do you know if there's any important things it can't do but google docs can?
[15:02:17] <chromas> well people used to say libreoffice sucked because it doesn't have all the MS office features, and now everyone's using google docs, which has even fewer features, so you should switch right away
[15:02:25] <progo> NextCloud delivers the whole thing as a package appropriate for home users who want to share with their family off the silly-con valley grid
[15:02:46] <progo> you can also get support contracts with NextCloud and Collabora if you have an Enterprise and want some quality assurance
[15:03:12] <progo> NextCloud is webscale
[15:03:13] <progo> :^)
[15:03:42] <chromas> nuh uh, it doesn't even support sharding
[15:03:42] <progo> https://www.youtube.com
[15:03:43] <systemd> ^ 03Episode 1 - Mongo DB Is Web Scale
[15:03:45] <ted-ious> chromas: I'm thinking that if libreoffice online can do everything google docs can then I can persuade some people to just switch.
[15:04:53] <progo> ted-ious get a contract with hosting provider and hand out user accounts, and maybe they will switch
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[15:07:25] <progo> ted-ious what can't LibreOffice Online do that Google Docs can? no idea. I haven't really used Google Docs since the 2000s
[15:07:40] <progo> Google likes to delete features and apps
[15:07:46] <progo> not a great place to work on projects
[15:08:10] <progo> LibreOffice is a software package you own. they can't remove features from YOUR installation
[15:08:40] <chromas> well, so long as you check all the changelogs every time there's an update
[15:08:40] <progo> also, NextCloud has a lot of add-ons or apps or plugins or whatever it's called
[15:08:52] <progo> calendars, forms, polls, wikis, ebook reader
[15:09:01] <chromas> rss, email clients
[15:09:43] <chromas> nextcloud was always super slow to load when I ran it, but I gave up when it kept needing ancient phpoo installations
[15:10:00] <chromas> I think arch has an ancient php package specifically for nextcloud
[15:10:10] <progo> yeah that was a problem for me when I tried it a while ago
[15:10:25] <progo> I'll let you know if today's NextCloud + LibreOffice works on my Raspberry Pi 4
[15:11:06] <chromas> last time I tried to get nextcloud setup was as an 'app" in truenas, where the package would get halfway setup then just stop without any sort of messaging
[15:11:26] <progo> I fought with NextCloud and Apache once
[15:11:37] <progo> I think we all three of us lost
[15:11:48] <progo> but I did have it running on this Pi a couple of years ago
[15:12:05] <progo> currently in that area of concern I only have Seafile running for dumb file sharing. works well
[15:12:14] <ted-ious> progo: I agree with you 100%. :)
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[15:13:59] <chromas> https://www.turnkeylinux.org
[15:14:00] <systemd> ^ 03Nextcloud | TurnKey GNU/Linux
[15:14:27] <chromas> no libreoffice package for some reason though. same with bitnami
[15:14:29] <progo> is that a Linux server that manages itself on your hardware?
[15:15:04] <chromas> They've got FluentBit, Kibana, Apache ZooKeeper, but not stuff people have heard of like libreoffice
[15:15:22] <chromas> yeah, it's like a distro specifically aimed at that one thing
[15:16:11] <chromas> usually you can get either a vm image or a container image, some have a setup script too. bitnami and turnkey both have a lot of stuff
[15:16:34] <chromas> it'll set up the DB and everything
[15:16:39] <progo> gotcha
[15:20:58] <progo> nice conversation. FYI I'm stepping out
[15:21:37] <chromas> I was looking up if document collaboration is supported in libreoffice and their document says it only works in spreadsheets and databases, but the document is from 2013
[15:21:39] <chromas> g'day
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[17:38:00] <ted-ious> I didn't break it this time.
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[23:49:51] <Bytram> wowee! You lot have been *BUSY*. No way I'm gonna be able to catch up on backscroll!
[23:52:15] * Bytram skips ahead to "now" and hopes that if anything *DID* happens, someone will politely point it out to me.