#soylent | Logs for 2023-06-16
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[03:20:46] <separatrix> Hello all. I finally re-figured out how to use irc.
[03:27:18] <progo> so you have
[03:28:01] <separatrix> ¯\(°_o)/¯ it’s been a while since I was in an all-text environment. Taking a little getting used to, but it feels like home
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[05:37:27] * chromas sends separatrix a fistful of xml
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[06:58:16] <separatrix> For those who will read this later, I wanted to say to kolie: a “committee” is a subset of a body.
[06:58:35] <separatrix> Unless the messaging group you want to form is made up of board members, call it a “group” or a “team” or a "department."
[06:59:36] <separatrix> The board itself is responsible for following and enforcing the bylaws.
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[06:59:55] <separatrix> Everyone, particularly the registered membership, is responsible for making sure the board does its job.
[07:01:04] <separatrix> A “subcommittee” is a subset of a committee, which is a subset of a body.
[07:01:24] <separatrix> I recommend you not use the terms “committee” or “subcommittee” unless you’re referring to portions of the board.
[07:02:21] <separatrix> If anything, the board should be limited to 7 to 11 members, and most of the work should continue to be done by non-board members.
[07:03:06] <separatrix> The board should appoint a CEO, who then appoints the other executive officers: head of coding, head of editing, head of public messaging, etc.
[07:03:39] <separatrix> And any volunteers can join those teams. But the leadership of each team is determined by the CEO.
[07:03:56] <separatrix> At least that’s one way of organizing. You could also have the board appoint team leaders. That’s not the worst idea.
[07:04:41] <separatrix> I also wish people would stop pillorying NC. I’m not at all surprised he’s not responding to people.
[07:05:10] <separatrix> I don’t care how egregious are his sins. No one should be afraid of his presence on a larger board with better bylaws.
[07:05:16] <janrinok> he is responding to people - just not in public
[07:05:56] <janrinok> It is the community he should be addressing. Which I think he is going to do today.
[07:06:19] <separatrix> That’ll be great.
[07:06:37] <separatrix> But, just — everybody take a breather.
[07:06:59] <separatrix> The white-hot anger is just not going to produce anything except more rage.
[07:07:36] <separatrix> Personal attacks have got to stop. It should never be about any one person or two people.
[07:07:43] <janrinok> It has achieved what it was intended to achieve. see : https://soylentnews.org
[07:07:45] <systemd> ^ 03Journal of replic8tor (2622)
[07:07:48] <separatrix> It should be about the issue at hand, always.
[07:08:09] <separatrix> You keep dwelling on the past, Jan. Look forward.
[07:08:26] <chromas> the past hasn't finished yet
[07:08:37] <separatrix> I won’t disagree that the rancor produced results. But there’s a lot of rancor being repeated.
[07:08:42] <janrinok> you don't know half of what we are doing. You are talking about past events. We moved on from that a day or two back
[07:09:05] <separatrix> On the contrary, you’re constantly bringing up things NC did or kolie didn’t do. Be patient with them.
[07:09:19] <separatrix> Have a little more patience at least.
[07:09:21] <janrinok> That finished a day or two back
[07:09:28] <janrinok> I have just told you that
[07:09:39] <separatrix> Not from reading last night’s logs, it doesn’t seem to me
[07:09:49] <separatrix> I literally just finished reading them and was responding
[07:10:24] <separatrix> But moving forward. Jan, I’d like to get a sense of how you define terms like “community” vs “membership”
[07:10:33] <janrinok> I have only 2 weeks to get the information to the community. The logs don't reflect the private channels - which is where most of this discussion is taking place.
[07:10:43] <separatrix> ok
[07:11:07] <janrinok> Read my responses! They are under your comments. It is you that is behind the discussion
[07:11:29] <janrinok> This is happening in real-time
[07:12:09] <separatrix> Ugh I’m trying to keep up, srsly. Cut me a little slack
[07:12:21] <janrinok> I want you to be more involved, particularly with regards to the community (defined in my post of over a day ago)
[07:13:11] <separatrix> yeah. SN/Rehash/etc is not exactly laid out in the most logical way. Take it from a newbie.
[07:13:27] <separatrix> It’s all I can do to navigate where things are. I’m not used to the site like you are.
[07:13:32] <janrinok> I know - but that is the difficulty we face. Some people are responding to comments written 4 or 5 days ago. The world has change - probably for the better - since that point. I am trying to keep everybody informed.
[07:13:34] <separatrix> Reading your response now.
[07:15:12] <separatrix> Ok, three brief comments on your two new responses:
[07:15:59] <janrinok> Rehash is just a chunk of software. For now ignore it. IRC is the means by which we hold most realtime conversations. But they are not all in public for perfectly good reasons.
[07:17:20] <janrinok> The site had a time lag, the content has to be written, published, wait for the community all around the world to come on line according to their tz, read the story, make their own comments, rinse and repeat
[07:17:28] <separatrix> You define “community” as everyone who uses the site. You didn’t answer whether you think the community should be able to vote on matters of governance, or whether that should be limited to “membership” (what I proposed defining as those who’ve registered or more)
[07:18:30] <separatrix> I think you equate “governance” and “participation”. Governance is more substantial than participation.
[07:18:32] <janrinok> You will write that - no me. I am an editor, not an expert on Boards
[07:19:09] <separatrix> Yes, but you’ve just chided me for not knowing about #staff and the logs where apparently governance is taking place
[07:19:24] <separatrix> That was the third observation
[07:19:41] <janrinok> Stop telling people that they have the wrong terminology please. Knowing the correct terminology is one area where you can held considerable, as is your knowledge on actually setting a Board up
[07:20:31] <separatrix> No, sir. I’m asking you because you know All the Things and you know I don’t. I don’t have access to the wiki that you’ve lived by for nine years. I’m not telling you you have the wrong terminology. I’m challenging you to explain what you mean by certain words.
[07:20:34] <janrinok> No, I have simply told you a fact. Now you know. It is the way we have operated for over 9 years. I don't expect you to know everything.
[07:20:48] <separatrix> I’m asking you for help, not trying to shove you like a bully on a playground. Please help me help you.
[07:21:25] <separatrix> Do you, janrinok, like the idea of a “membership”? Do you agree or disagree with it? I’m asking your personal opinion, not as an officer of the site
[07:22:37] <janrinok> This is a discussion. When/If you start drafting things to meet the needs of the Board and Community we can start worrying about the correct terminology. The community are all of us, including the ACs that were part of the front page too until a small number tried to bring the site down. They were moved off the front pages.
[07:23:12] <janrinok> I like the word membership - but it isn't just my decision. There are other people involved and I am merely one player.
[07:23:58] <separatrix> It doesn’t HAVE to be your decision. I’m asking your PERSONAL OPINION. That is all.
[07:24:38] <janrinok> When a document is produced I would hope that it has, almost as its first paragraph, a list of all the definitions. I have said "I like the word membership", that is my personal opinion.
[07:24:55] <separatrix> This is, in fact, just a discussion. I’m not going to hold you to anything. I’m just trying to understand your terms, even as I gently suggest new terms. Gently.
[07:25:17] <separatrix> I could compile that document. But I need your help, since right now you’re pretty much the wiki.
[07:25:37] <janrinok> I am only answering your questions. I have a 1000 other things to do. At the moment this is at the top of my list....
[07:25:50] <separatrix> Would you be adamantly opposed to votes on board members or staff policies being voted on only by the membership rather than the whole community?
[07:26:22] <separatrix> We can pick this up whenever you like. I just happen to be on at 3:30 am Eastern US time
[07:26:53] <janrinok> nitty gritty - but go on. If there are community members (representing the entire community) who are on that Board then yes I would hope that they would vote.
[07:27:41] <janrinok> Rarely, there are decisions that currently require the entire community - we have not had one of those since 2015. But there is a mechanism for doing such a thing.
[07:27:42] <separatrix> Okay. The implication of this statement is that you think perhaps Acs should have one or more representatives on the board. Is this correct to say?
[07:28:23] <separatrix> Also, please share with me that 2015 example so I can get a sense of it
[07:28:32] <janrinok> No - no ACs. But those community members who are serving in some capacity must ALSO represent the ACs too
[07:29:09] <janrinok> I haven't got time for that now, but I can do so in an email or admin to user message if you wish later?
[07:29:58] <separatrix> Certainly. I’ll just finish by saying this:
[07:31:05] <separatrix> Whether they be board members, staff, or registered members, anyone who cares about the community should be trying to represent the interests of the Acs who also participate in the community. They can all be representative, and ACs’ interests can be protected in any mission statement or bylaw.
[07:31:57] <separatrix> But I think that maybe you agree with me that there should be a distinction made between registered and unregistered members, and that only the former should be able to cast votes, even if the latter can take part in discussions about such votes.
[07:32:05] <janrinok> Agreed. That is difficult when a handfull of those ACs have the stated aim of bringing the site down, but it is the intention that there views be also represented.
[07:32:23] <separatrix> Great. I feel like this is something of a breakthrough.
[07:32:27] <janrinok> nitty gritty. Leave that for another discussion
[07:32:51] <separatrix> I wish you wouldn’t dismiss my concerns so readily. These are the things I need to know to further participate.
[07:32:58] <separatrix> That’s why I’m asking them now.
[07:33:06] <janrinok> I am not, I am 2 minutes late for something else
[07:33:11] <separatrix> That’s fine. TTYL.
[07:33:16] <janrinok> laters!
[07:33:19] <separatrix> Thanks again for the conversation.
[07:33:23] <janrinok> welcome
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[15:01:39] <Bytram> janrinok: Hi! Quick question... I understand that aristarchus was permabanned. Is that still in effect or has it been rescinded? (cf: https://soylentnews.org )
[15:01:41] <systemd> ^ 03SoylentNews Comments | INCOMING WALL TEXT - tldr love you jan ( https://soylentnews.org )
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[15:02:24] <janrinok> He is still permabanned. I wouldn't lift it without very wide consultation. Why did you ask?
[15:03:05] <janrinok> My reply was:
[15:03:09] <janrinok> will I get my account restored? Can aristarchus come back?
[15:03:09] <janrinok> 1. That appears to be 2 questions. AC account hasn't been blocked, disabled, banned or anything else for that matter.
[15:03:09] <janrinok> 2. No.
[15:03:09] <janrinok> Feel free to send another whinging email to my usual address. I've emptied my waste bin in anticipation.
[15:04:43] <Bytram> ty! So this should be modded how? ( https://soylentnews.org )
[15:04:44] <systemd> ^ 03SoylentNews Comments | INCOMING WALL TEXT - tldr love you jan ( https://soylentnews.org )
[15:07:59] <janrinok> Ignore it if you wish. Ari thought that I/we were about to be over-ruled. That is not the case. kolie also thinks he knows Ari under a different name.
[15:09:11] <janrinok> We are expecting a Meta from NCommander today - apparently he is agreeing to much of what we have been asking for. But I will wait and see what it actually says first.
[15:09:29] <Bytram> ok... mod him as... spam?
[15:10:40] <janrinok> Nah, Troll
[15:12:29] <requerdanos> looks like someone already modded that one as spam
[15:13:18] <janrinok> I thought so too, but I am not looking at that page at the moment. Suggest we move to editorial private channel?
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[17:26:01] <kolie2> FYI I haven't got word from matt yet.
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[19:38:39] <Ingar> I could try sticking my fist in the air again, but somehow that feels like tempting fate
[19:45:05] <janrinok> Ingar, Have faith - it worked once....
[19:50:48] <Ingar> I was admiring His Universe tonight
[19:51:27] <janrinok> A nice clear night here too
[19:51:48] <Ingar> here's some starballs http://ingar.intranifty.net http://ingar.intranifty.net
[19:52:16] <janrinok> Nice
[19:52:41] <Ingar> hot dry weather has its advantages :)
[19:53:05] <janrinok> very true
[21:23:45] <kolie> matt is known for taking multiple stick pokings to summon.
[21:58:33] <AlwaysNever> We are waiting for His Word... otherwise, I can bring a Ouija board, but it works in a very slow baud rate...
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[23:01:59] <kolie> So NC confirmed matt's being a slow poke. NC said he's going to wait till monday and if no response he will post about this being stalled and nudge matt. I said ok - but please nudge matt daily - 24 hour per nudge is reasonable.
[23:07:30] <kolie> Also - staging.soylentnews.org works more now.
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