#soylent | Logs for 2023-06-12
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[07:21:52] <janrinok> RunningWithWind, good morning to you
[07:22:02] <janrinok> gone again
[07:23:23] <halibut> It only makes sense. If they are running with the wind, then they will probably be Gone with the Wind, too.
[07:24:48] <janrinok> Ah, a funny and intelligent reply!
[07:25:42] <halibut> I appreciate that, although I do not think it much of an intellectual feat to associate ``with the wind'' with a famous movie.
[07:26:21] <janrinok> RunningWithWind and RunningWithTheWind conjour up completely different views to me. The former might indicate he has gas, and will either belch, fart, or do both.
[07:27:18] <janrinok> but for this time in my morning, it made me smile so it was a success quip.
[07:27:29] <halibut> Fair enough. I will take the win.
[07:28:28] <janrinok> brb 5
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[08:44:41] <chromas> Vote for me to become world dictator and I'll make sure Linux allows you to kill processes stuck in disk sleep
[09:12:58] <fab23> :)
[09:15:21] <janrinok> I think we have sufficient dictators for the moment...
[09:17:07] <chromas> but like standards, it'll be better if we have just one more
[09:17:22] <janrinok> lol
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[13:38:41] <inz> chromas, I guess things get better as the number of dictators approaches the number of people
[13:58:45] <AlwaysNever> Dictatorship is the most efficient form of Gobernment, just not the most liked one
[14:11:22] <inz> Similarily suicide is the most accurate method of approximating one's remaining time to live.
[14:26:31] <requerdanos> when did mainstream "technology news" become 99% cell phones and video games? That's all I see these days when scouting google news for stories
[14:28:01] <inz> When "technology news" became mainstream.
[14:32:52] <AlwaysNever> Technology news is consumer news. Onle IT news are technical, more or less
[14:33:46] <requerdanos> it would seem to me that consumer news is the trailing, not leading, edge of technology.
[14:34:24] <janrinok> I suppose as always we must follow the money
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[16:24:50] <fab23> janrinok: related to my recent subs https://www.geekculture.com
[16:24:51] <systemd> ^ 03The Night They Drove Old Reddit Dark
[16:43:44] <kolie> lol good one
[17:18:15] <progo> requerdanos you're out of date. mainstream tech news is AI and a bit of cryptocurrencies now
[17:18:34] <requerdanos> ah yes, on the blockchain.
[17:19:30] <progo> all: I'm sorry if this is a dumb FAQ that's been discussed to death, but: has anyone in power at Soylent thought about cutting our losses with mod_perl and building a new site with fediverse-compatible Lemmy < https://join-lemmy.org > or kbin < https://kbin.pub >
[17:19:31] <systemd> ^ 03Lemmy - A link aggregator for the fediverse
[17:19:32] <systemd> ^ 03Home | kbin.pub - Fediverse of content
[17:19:47] <progo> no one needs to explain in detail why it won't work; just wondering if that sort of thing was ever on the table
[17:20:02] <janrinok> progo, Yes, we are looking at various options
[17:20:07] <progo> cool
[17:20:31] <progo> I quasi-endorse these only because a friend just mentioned them to me. never new about them yet and didn't try to install them
[17:21:00] <janrinok> but to get a site up quickly it is better to use what we already have available to us. For longer term then all options are still open and being investigated.
[17:21:09] <progo> their pitches: "build a forum like Reddit's forums, but on your own server with free software"
[17:21:32] <progo> that's true janrinok
[17:23:19] <progo> with Reddit's contempt for their constituent forum owners, I think the solution for Reddit is to shut down and let hundreds of sysadmins help thousands of forums get setup on the sysadmins' servers, and thus decentralize costs and moderation and rules
[17:23:36] <progo> all the ex-Reddits can have their own local rules of conduct to make them each happy
[17:35:17] <fab23> progo: the world in the Fediverse is more complex then it seems from the outside, Even with ActiviyPub as a standard way of inter-site communications, not all do support the same features. I have been told that when you want to run a serious Fediverse site the best option would be to use Mastodon. I guess stuff like Lemmy could probably be used / connected with it as well.
[17:36:05] <progo> Mastodon is a trash fire that masquerades as communication software that works, and it works. :^)
[17:36:08] <progo> it's a hot mess
[17:36:13] <progo> the protocols are a hot mess too
[17:36:29] <fab23> s/ActiviyPub/ActivityPub/ (see https://activitypub.rocks and https://en.wikipedia.org)
[17:36:30] <systemd> ^ 03ActivityPub Rocks!
[17:36:31] <systemd> ^ 03ActivityPub) - Wikipedia
[17:36:39] <progo> Mastodon is the best choice for certain use-cases. if you want to build a social server for 50 people, you probably should NOT use Mastodon
[17:37:38] <progo> I'm going to try installing Soapbox some time summer for myself, and see if I want to / should / can run my own "microblogging" instance
[17:37:51] <progo> I should try those two not-Reddits too while I'm at it, so I can tell others what they're like
[17:37:52] <fab23> Fediverse is also still on my ToDo list :)
[17:38:30] <progo> Veronica Explains says that fediverse istances work best socially when they're the size of a village
[17:38:33] <progo> the old 150 people rule
[17:38:49] <progo> but she says there's nothing inherently wrong with mega instances
[17:41:56] <progo> https://youtu.be citation for my "Veronica Explains" comment. it's a good vlog
[17:41:59] <systemd> ^ 03Why I'm not telling you to host your own Mastodon ( https://www.youtube.com )
[17:42:17] <progo> this video is 9 minutes
[17:43:56] <chromas> Old abandoned reddit source code is available. I'm surprised we haven't jumped on it
[17:44:27] <progo> old code that has no other users is sometimes a problem
[17:45:05] <chromas> Worked for rehash
[17:45:17] <progo> ha ha
[17:55:33] <fab23> :)
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[20:14:26] <ted-ious> progo: Who is this woman and why is she lecturing me as if I was 6 years old?
[20:14:50] <ted-ious> Also she doesn't know how to pronounce cacophony.
[20:23:36] <progo> says on the label: that's Veronica
[20:23:48] <progo> I think she means to seem friendly and encouraging to noobs
[20:23:58] <progo> ted-ious
[20:24:58] <progo> also I wouldn't be surprised if she had a lot of children and teenager subscribers
[20:25:11] <ted-ious> If I talked like that to a child who was older than about 7 they'd be insulted and stop listening to anything I said forever.
[20:25:30] <ted-ious> I don't think I'd try to get away with it over about age 5 just to be safe.
[20:26:14] <progo> talking down to primary school grammar worked for Trump
[20:26:38] <ted-ious> Does he sound like that in his rallys?
[20:26:54] <progo> ha ha. not exactly
[20:26:54] <mechanicjay> I can't sit here for 10 minutes waiting to hear how she mis-pronounces that, but I am curious.
[20:27:14] <ted-ious> It's just past the middle.
[20:27:36] <ted-ious> So you shouldn't waste more than 6 minutes or so. :)
[20:27:40] <progo> and I get what you're saying about Veronica's speech mannerisms, but I always just perceived it as she's deliberately trying to talk slowly and clearly enough to be understood by anyone who might want to learn. some geeks talk way too fast
[20:28:10] <ted-ious> It's not just her speed it's her tone of voice and inflections.
[20:28:39] <progo> yeah. well, I don't mind it, personally
[20:30:17] <mechanicjay> It's the cuts She speaks a sentance, looks knowingly into the camera for a couple beats, then it cuts and she starts speaking again.
[20:30:29] <mechanicjay> there it is.
[20:30:37] <progo> teleprompter awkwardness
[20:30:39] <mechanicjay> "caka phony"
[20:30:41] <progo> she's only been at it for a year
[20:31:04] <ted-ious> She's speaking live in front of an audience.
[20:31:23] <mechanicjay> Yeah, like it fine, she just needs to tighten the edits up a bit.
[20:31:28] <ted-ious> This is an edit video she had unlimited time to re-record and edit
[20:37:31] <ted-ious> Here's a guy with a much better presentation. https://www.youtube.com
[20:37:33] <systemd> ^ 03How to Lube a Membrane Keyboard Ft. Amkette EvoFox FireBlade
[20:39:52] <progo> ted-ious lol
[20:40:43] <progo> I'm gonna buy a mechanical keyboard soon. I'm using a "washable" membrane switch keyboard that is just barely "washable". you can spray and soak it, but you haven't washed it really. you have to COMPLETELY disassemble the whole thing if you hope to get debris out from inside
[20:41:01] <progo> the keyboard I'm looking at doesn't have a bezel around all the keys, and the keycaps pop right off for cleaning
[20:42:12] <ted-ious> Can you put it in the dishwasher?
[20:45:39] <progo> I'd have to find the manual. it might advise against it
[20:45:42] <progo> due to the heat
[20:46:16] <progo> anyway, bigger problem: it's 10 years old and a dozen key labels are completely worn off
[20:46:38] <progo> I want something laminated or the more expensive keycaps where the labels don't just rub off so easily
[20:46:52] <progo> I think X and C were rubbed off after only a few years, on this crappy one I have
[20:48:25] <ted-ious> If you get a backlit keyboard the letters are molded in so there's nothing to rub off.
[20:48:49] <progo> right. that's the kind of thing I want. the keyboard on my todo list has backlighting I think
[20:49:02] <progo> it's a cheap mechanical Logitech model that is stocked by B&H Photo
[20:49:15] <mechanicjay> I have two solutions to keys rubbing off: 1) Use a Das Keyboard with no letters. 2) Continue to use the $1 Flea Market Model M I got in the late 90's.
[20:49:35] <progo> 3) buy a new $10 membrane keyboard every year or two
[20:49:49] <progo> and try not to think about what's growing inside
[20:50:43] <mechanicjay> Also, like I've been typing daily on the thinkpad for 10+ years and don't have a letter wearing off issue -- though the keys around the letters are pretty much completely smooth at this point.
[20:51:13] <mechanicjay> But like, I've known people to wear through the letters on a keyboard in a year or two...I just wonder what they're doing.
[20:51:42] <mechanicjay> Maybe they didn't have Mrs. Ricabono teaching them how to properly touch type
[20:52:14] <ted-ious> I think most people didn't. :)
[20:52:33] <mechanicjay> I can accept that
[20:52:35] <mechanicjay> :)
[20:52:41] <ted-ious> Have you seen the thinkpad usb keyboards?
[20:53:13] <ted-ious> IBM used to make them almost identical to the ones they used in the laptops.
[20:53:44] <ted-ious> I saw one on somebody's desk and he had me fooled into believing that he hacked it out of a laptop and put it in a plastic case.
[21:01:35] <mechanicjay> Makes sense -- we have a KVM downstairs in a rack with some older IBM kit. The KVM is like a laptop screen and a laptop keyboard in stand alone housings.
[21:07:39] <progo> wearing through key labels: 1) they might or might not be designed for longevity. Thinkpad keyboards are probably better than average. 2) some people's skin oils are more corrosive than others
[21:08:00] <progo> my skin wrecks cheap over-the-ear headset speaker covers
[21:08:21] <progo> and yes, I bathe every day, properly
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[21:27:13] <AlwaysNever> I hope the talking about fediverse instances, mastodons, lemmys and kbins are just jokes flying around...
[21:27:45] <AlwaysNever> that not even alpha, it's early experimental at best
[21:29:14] <AlwaysNever> mod_perl is TPYSITPG - The pain you see is the pain you get, meaning in all its painful being, there are no additional hidden pains yet to be discovered
[21:30:58] <mechanicjay> LOL
[21:31:29] <mechanicjay> the sheer amount of hardware needed to run a even medium sized mastdon instance isn't even funny....and it always breaks anyway.
[21:32:34] <mechanicjay> I'd sooner fork and move to a phpBB instance
[21:35:14] <Fnord666> You mean linode recommending you start a mastodon server on their hardware might not be completely altruistic?
[21:44:59] <kolie> I'm running a 3000 user mastodon instance using 2x1.8ghz vCPU and 2.3/4GB memory allocated.
[21:49:01] <kolie> 20-30% cpu usage.
[21:54:36] <AlwaysNever> Oh, my! They are comming...! The body snatchers!
[21:55:22] <AlwaysNever> We will be assimilated.
[21:57:09] <progo> kolie thanks for that data point
[22:00:06] <ted-ious> chromas: Have you or anybody else here actually tried getting that old reddit code to run?
[22:00:12] <progo> I haven't seen anyone yet suggest we document rehash and then rewrite it in javascript. (that's a joke)
[22:00:42] <ted-ious> progo: Can rehash even be ported to javascript?
[22:00:52] <ted-ious> Doesn't rehash use integers?
[22:01:39] <progo> ha ha
[22:01:49] <ted-ious> :)
[22:01:58] <progo> I'm sure you could rewrite rehash in javascript (mostly server side javascript code), if you wanted to
[22:02:08] <progo> me -- I'd use someone else's work, and probably not a javascript program
[22:02:59] <progo> javascript can do integer math if you talk to it right
[22:03:09] <mechanicjay> Jesus, is anyone up for documentating the admin side of rehash? There's about 10k buttons and levers, which are either pooly labeled or non-functional without some mad combination of levers pressed simultaneously.
[22:04:30] <progo> that sounds like a task I failed at last week: trying to add a table and a screen to a VB.NET ASP.NET program someone else write. I can't figure out what buttons to push in the database diagram in Visual Studio, to get the code generated right. and I'm not supposed to edit that particular generated module of code
[22:05:09] <ted-ious> mechanicjay: I'm good at documenting things but I'd need a salary and a test environment and a very long schedule to do that. :)
[22:05:20] <progo> VB.NET is weird, also. it shares keywords with C# but they don't mean the same thing
[22:05:27] <requerdanos> here's $5, take all day if you need to
[22:06:08] <mechanicjay> At this point I'm doing thing like, what doesn't x work? I think i found a variable name that's kinda related, <grep through code base> Oh, I'm missing a var in the vars table to activate the feature, of course!
[22:06:26] * mechanicjay 's head explodes
[22:06:39] <progo> lovely
[22:06:59] <ted-ious> The configuration is stored in the database?
[22:07:08] <progo> mechanicjay is this the kind of project where you sift through so many layers and modules to answer a question that you forgot what the question was? I got one of those at work.
[22:07:12] <mechanicjay> well, that all depends
[22:07:37] <progo> and that project I'm referring to now -- too many layers -- just LOVES to return null or 0 or empty list when the result was failure/exception
[22:07:59] <progo> "why is this web view empty? is there no data? did the database go down? did I click the wrong button?"
[22:09:01] <mechanicjay> Configuration of various features is mostly stored in the database, in a "vars" table, so like "update vars set value='5' wher ename='m1_pointsgrant_arbitrary', will dole out 5 mod points during the nightly run
[22:09:19] <mechanicjay> there is a front-end form for updating most of these vars, and they *mostly* have a helpful description
[22:09:56] <requerdanos> of course, most/mostly is just a favorable way of saying "only partially"
[22:09:59] <mechanicjay> activating a plugin on the site, however, requires running a shell script which symlinks a bunch of perl into the docroot of your site
[22:10:26] <mechanicjay> THEN, and here's the kicker and why the codebase is in not great shape -- not all the right vars get added to the table when you activate the plugin
[22:10:26] <AlwaysNever> mechanicjay: has anyone contacted cowboyneal to see if he is interested in hackin perl again, to help with rehash which is a derivative of his own perl code?
[22:10:49] <mechanicjay> I mean, we did like 9 years ago -- I think the response was "Neat, good luck!"
[22:11:11] <mechanicjay> though maybe if he's getting old and nostalgic we could draw him back in lol
[22:11:26] <progo> tell him it CAN'T be fixed :^)
[22:11:33] <progo> sometimes that gets an engineer going
[22:11:42] <mechanicjay> jesus, this dd is taking forever -- hope the source drive survives the read
[22:13:11] <mechanicjay> It make sense that each plugin would manage it's own db tables -- wordpress does this in a very good way. rehash, does not.
[22:13:54] <mechanicjay> rehash does such a shit job of it, it would make more sense to have a "complete" database with empty tables and a complete set of vars seeded
[22:18:52] <AlwaysNever> I would vote for blackboxing rehash into some container, and let it be as-is; then plug it to the database out of said container, and just do regular backups.
[22:22:29] <mechanicjay> The issue as it stands right now, is you can't spin up a functioning rehash site from the repo, mostly due to some missing db pieces.
[22:23:05] <mechanicjay> which makes even having a local dev instance really hard
[22:23:30] <mechanicjay> that's kinda the piece I'm working on right now, is making sure one can build a fresh empty site.
[22:23:44] <mechanicjay> that's the basis for future work, I think
[22:23:48] <mechanicjay> or a prereq
[22:24:21] <mechanicjay> unless we're going to provide a fully functional seed SN development database dump.
[22:24:43] <mechanicjay> but that's like a cheat -- a little more work, and one could just run the installer
[22:29:20] <AlwaysNever> I snapshot of rehash plus databases, and then deleting the database content, should yield a fresh, empty, working site. Yeah, is not a installer-made one, but it should work
[22:29:32] <AlwaysNever> *An snapshot
[22:35:59] <AlwaysNever> It's not unheard of that some project are published like that, for example mailcow is published as a ready-to-go docker container, with the set up already done
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[23:23:13] <mechanicjay> As i've been trying to get a dev site install working, I've been reaquainting myself with the moderation system and controls we have for such.
[23:25:48] <mechanicjay> As i've been trying to get a dev site put together, I've been reaquainted with the moderation system.
[23:27:09] <mechanicjay> The way we SN does mod point (everyone gets 10 every day) was done in the early days, with the reasoning that more is better and it makes the community more engaged.
[23:27:57] <mechanicjay> I'm wondering if we should revisit that. it turns out there a lot of different controls around modpoints. Who gets them, how many, when you can use them, how many you can bank, etc.
[23:28:44] <mechanicjay> For example, one could say, a random 75% of users with Karma over 25 get 5 modpoints, and you can bank up to 15.
[23:29:04] <mechanicjay> Or you could set it so that you cannot moderate and comment in the same thread.
[23:36:50] <AlwaysNever> I don't mind the moderation karma/points, one way or the other, it can be fine tuned at any time
[23:37:00] <mechanicjay> Anyway, things for the community to think about.
[23:38:02] <AlwaysNever> The editors I guess should have more insight about how the moderation is working, or not
[23:38:36] <mechanicjay> Well I mean if you browse at like 2, you should get a sense of how well it's working
[23:39:00] <AlwaysNever> I always browse at 0, I want to see it all
[23:39:13] <mechanicjay> I mean, I always have too, lol
[23:39:44] <mechanicjay> Oh shit, the comments pref page is broken on SN
[23:41:11] <AlwaysNever> uh? where is that page? URL?
[23:41:47] <AlwaysNever> I see in my "setting page":
[23:41:47] <AlwaysNever> InfoSubmissionsJournalMessagesFriendsFansFoesFreaks
[23:42:04] <mechanicjay> https://soylentnews.org
[23:42:05] <systemd> ^ 03- SoylentNews User
[23:43:07] <AlwaysNever> yeah, that URL does not show anything in its main frame
[23:43:42] <mechanicjay> yeah, it should bring up a page where you can set your default threading mode, thresholds, etc
[23:43:44] <AlwaysNever> is that URL https://soylentnews.org accesible from some visible link somewhere, or that URL has to be known by infussion?
[23:43:45] <systemd> ^ 03- SoylentNews User
[23:44:31] <mechanicjay> You can get their from your user preferences page, then clikcing comments
[23:44:44] <mechanicjay> *there
[23:46:05] <AlwaysNever> Ok, I see a link at the bottom which goes to https://soylentnews.org and that render a blank main frame
[23:46:06] <systemd> ^ 03- SoylentNews User
[23:47:15] <AlwaysNever> so it looks like that functionaly is busted
[23:48:01] <mechanicjay> sure does -- I'm sure perl is throwing a helpful error in the apache logs
[23:48:05] <AlwaysNever> Is that a consequence or recent changes/migrations?
[23:48:27] <AlwaysNever> changes are being done without proper QA... that's bad
[23:49:17] <mechanicjay> I don't know -- I get the sense that the main site is still running on Apache 2.2 and approprate versions of mod_perl and perl
[23:49:50] <mechanicjay> I don't think there's been any major changes since NCommander did his intensive back in Jan?
[23:50:08] <mechanicjay> It's possible this has been broken since then -- don't know
[23:50:44] <requerdanos> what options are on that screen during times when it isn't broken?
[23:51:50] <mechanicjay> Sets your comment reading thresholds, default threading mode, some localized point boosts based on friend/foe stuff.
[23:52:07] <requerdanos> oh, that screen. Got it.
[23:53:01] <mechanicjay> anyway, back later
[23:54:04] <AlwaysNever> looking at the HTML source, looks like "template: ID 43" is not rendering...
[23:58:11] <requerdanos> with respect to moderation options, I think the current selections are the right ones for the community size.