#soylent | Logs for 2023-06-08
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[00:02:44] <mechanicjay> nope, never mind, this is that schema issue again :/
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[18:42:53] <fab23> https://www.geekculture.com
[18:42:53] <systemd> ^ 03A Vision of the future.
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[19:39:58] <AlwaysNever> hello there, what's up?
[19:40:59] <janrinok> nothing is it? - but who can tell nowadays?
[19:41:47] <janrinok> how's things?
[19:42:45] <Bytram> what's up? The direction that I never managed to fall.
[19:43:11] <fab23> .oO( SilentNews :)
[19:43:36] <janrinok> oh, look out, we've woken up the Swiss
[19:43:48] <fab23> janrinok: oh no :)
[19:43:50] <Bytram> SilentMews?
[19:44:01] <Bytram> or...
[19:44:13] <janrinok> SilentShoes or HushPuppies
[19:44:16] <Bytram> SilentMoos?
[19:44:36] <janrinok> SilagePoos
[19:44:49] <Bytram> SilentMuse?
[19:44:56] <Bytram> LOL
[19:45:15] <fab23> SillyNews
[19:45:15] <Bytram> SilentMoose!
[19:45:25] <AlwaysNever> Are there any news from "the owners" about what's being done?
[19:45:52] * janrinok thinks that it must be getting near to bedtime - things are getting silly
[19:46:00] <fab23> :)
[19:46:07] <fab23> AlwaysNever: does not look like -> https://soylentnews.org
[19:46:08] <systemd> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[19:46:12] <Bytram> I'm pretty much out of the loop.
[19:46:47] <janrinok> Nope. They are building up the new servers which seems to be going reasonably well. I think services are slowly being transferred over.
[19:47:05] <AlwaysNever> fab23: yeah, but I mean if there is communication Owners <--> Staff going on?
[19:47:08] <fab23> Bytram: I guess many are, and some stuff seen here does not make it look better
[19:48:08] <fab23> AlwaysNever: I have no idea, but what I have seen from the outside, communication seems to be difficult.
[19:48:27] <janrinok> Until they have done their own sorting out there is a limit on what can be achieved. But things are happening but we are not in a position to make any announcements. We haven't stopped or slackened the pace.
[19:48:30] <Bytram> gnawed gnawed :(
[19:49:30] <janrinok> I have backed of the publicity quite a bit - let them get themselves sorted. They know how we feel, Whether they care is a different matter.
[19:50:17] <janrinok> There is communication - but I am not the centre of that thrust. So I hesitate to say something that might be wrong.
[19:51:01] <AlwaysNever> well, I like seeing that the Staff is holding tight
[19:51:13] <AlwaysNever> yeah, let's wait and see
[19:51:31] <janrinok> Our biggest fear is that we divide the community. They do not deserve that. So we will only create a new site if we staff feel that nothing else can be achieved here.
[19:51:39] <janrinok> We are not at that point yet
[19:52:17] <janrinok> we are. I don't think that there are any exceptions.
[19:52:39] <Bytram> OTOH, without a dedicated test team... there's gonna be plenty of gotchas to take advantage of. It might be slow, but we are quite knowledgeable *and* dedicated.
[19:53:10] <janrinok> Oh they don't need one - surely containers fix everything don't they?
[19:53:14] <AlwaysNever> A "new site" is a very bad option, in my opinion
[19:53:35] <AlwaysNever> a "new site" is not going to be like the current one, which a like as it is
[19:54:34] <janrinok> well it is not one that we favour - but the new site will be the same as we have now. We are using exactly the same software in both sides. It has all be upgraded to the latest versions of everything. That 'hurdle' was more in somebody's mind that an actual problem.
[19:54:37] <AlwaysNever> also, I doubt that many people would migrate over to a "new site", the community currently is pretty small
[19:55:45] <janrinok> OK, I cannot argue against that view. We have received lots of email support and offers of financial backing too
[19:56:13] <AlwaysNever> I hope the current SN can survive
[19:56:21] <janrinok> we all hope for that.
[19:57:24] <janrinok> But if it all pivots on the changing whims of one person then I will not be staying. Not that that should influence anyone. I am only an editor when all is said and done
[19:58:07] <janrinok> The governance of the site needs to change. It cannot depend on 1 person. The community must have a say in its future.
[20:00:06] <AlwaysNever> janrinok: no one is irreplaceble, but the Staff need you and your dedication, the site needs your dedication, I hope you stay, but I also understand it may be impossible if the "environment" is hellish
[20:00:36] <janrinok> We are, I hope, still a bit away from that point. I am taking each day as it comes.
[20:00:47] <janrinok> Thanks for your kind words.
[20:03:31] <AlwaysNever> I'm from Spain, we had an Slashdot clone called Barrapunto.com for many years, it was just like Slashdot because it was running Hash... Barrapunto is no more, and I really miss it. I don't what the same to happen to SN
[20:04:07] <fab23> janrinok: as I am quite busy since a few weeks, I like that you do not publish too many stories on SN, but on the other hand all the Meta + Comments also absorb a lot of time for me :)
[20:04:55] <fab23> AlwaysNever: the same happen in Switzerland with symlink.ch (with a German version of I think slashcode 1.x)
[20:05:32] <janrinok> fab23, it is also very dependent on available material, manpower and whatever is happening with the future of the site. We are resource limited in many areas.
[20:06:19] <fab23> janrinok: sure, understandable
[20:06:30] <janrinok> I remember hearing about symlink - but I don't recall where or when that was.
[20:06:57] <janrinok> a long, long time ago in a galaxy far away.....
[20:07:34] <fab23> janrinok: I probably told you once, and showed you the "new" one done with Wordpress, but they are in "Blogstreik" since very long, because Comments do not work :)
[20:08:22] <janrinok> It is time for me to go, we can carry on with this discussion tomorrow if you wish. I've been up since very early this morning and I have had a full day.
[20:09:12] * fab23 too
[20:09:26] <AlwaysNever> With Barrapunto.com what happened is that the core team were 3 people, two of them went to do other things, and the remaining one just didn't tend to the site and refused to transfer it to anyone, so Barrapunto.com stayed frozen for a couple of years and then when some hosting expired it ceased to load at all. It died a horrible death after a long agony
[20:09:41] <fab23> but I do not yet know, what work has up for me tomorrow :)
[20:10:53] <AlwaysNever> janrinok: good night to you
[20:10:55] <janrinok> AlwaysNever, yeah we are trying to avoid that no matter whatever happens.
[20:11:01] <janrinok> good night!
[20:11:16] <fab23> janrinok: sleep well!
[20:11:39] <janrinok> you too, Goodnight Grandma!
[20:11:52] <janrinok> I wonder how many will get that?
[20:13:24] <fab23> AlwaysNever: for symlink.ch it was to migrate away from old slashcode, but migrate to 2.x was not an option, as all the translations would have to be needed again. And also I guess some of the editors got tired because of the work involved and the missing comment function on the new WP solution
[20:13:49] <fab23> janrinok: I do not, but this is probably something only British people understand.
[20:14:23] <AlwaysNever> fab23: I thing part of the "magik" is in Slashcode itself, it is dense in text and that's its charm
[20:15:06] <AlwaysNever> migrating away from Slashcode is goind to produce something with a lot of whitespace, not appealing at all to the "veteran crew"
[20:15:23] <requerdanos> slashcode-style moderation is best in class
[20:15:25] <fab23> AlwaysNever: did you see https://pipedot.org ?
[20:15:29] <systemd> ^ 03Pipedot
[20:16:40] <AlwaysNever> fab23: I didn't know about pipedot, I'm looking at it now, looks nice in its style :)
[20:17:05] <fab23> AlwaysNever: it is kind of a reimplemntation of slashcode done in PHP, and bryan is very helpful and also here. :)
[20:17:25] <chromas> Now we just need a yellow and green site
[20:17:27] <chromas> maybe purple
[20:17:47] <fab23> chromas: rainbow? :)
[20:18:10] <chromas> Good idea. Stripedot
[20:19:21] <chromas> We'll make puns about seeing the light and banding together
[20:19:23] <fab23> hm, like Scacciapensieri -> https://it.wikipedia.org(programma_televisivo) :)
[20:19:24] <systemd> ^ 03Scacciapensieri (programma televisivo) - Wikipedia
[20:19:40] <AlwaysNever> Pipedot looks good, but I would rather stay with what is tried and battle tested: Slashcode or Rehash or whatever it's called
[20:20:11] <fab23> AlwaysNever: Rehash is a fork of slashcode, that runs SN
[20:21:57] <fab23> https://www.youtube.com
[20:21:59] <systemd> ^ 03Sigla Scacciapensieri - RSI LA1 (2021)
[20:23:21] <AlwaysNever> I don't trust "technological" migration, they are intensive in labour, very stressing, need a lot of resources, and ofter don't end well.
[20:25:51] <AlwaysNever> When Mozilla Foundation decided to rewrite Netscape from scratch, it took them A LOT of time to get to feature partity with the old Netscape code base
[20:26:35] <chromas> It took them years just to add zooming
[20:26:39] <AlwaysNever> like several years, with top developers on payroll working full steam on the project
[20:27:12] <mechanicjay> Yeah
[20:27:51] <fab23> it sure does depend, e.g. related to SN, to re-run the same content on a new platform, it is probably a good idea to be able to keep the database and processes, but for a fresh start, maybe another solution could be as good.
[20:28:48] <fab23> it always depends on the people taking care of the system and software.
[20:29:52] <mechanicjay> Yeah -- If you want the "look and feel" starting with pipecode might make more sense
[20:30:21] <AlwaysNever> That Slashcode/Rehas can sustain massive affluence of traffic, is a known fact. That pipedot can too, is unknown.
[20:30:31] <mechanicjay> For something like SN, buliling a new DB abstraction layer / API and putting a new front-end on it -- lots of work
[20:31:17] <fab23> or you need an SQL guru being able to transform the data
[20:32:36] <mechanicjay> The storys/comments/users tables are *fairly* straight forward, thankfully
[20:32:37] <fab23> at $WORK we have a lot of shell scripts which run many SQL files for such things, on a daily basis to bring content into different web sites. :)
[20:33:01] <fab23> I did the shell script part, others did the sql magic
[20:33:07] <AlwaysNever> I quite like that Slashcode/Rehash has its code interwebed with its presentation layer, all mixed; ugly but efficient, and as mechanicjay it's very API-unfriendly, which is good so that what-is-is-what-can-be
[20:33:38] <chromas> it's perl, so not too efficient :)
[20:34:04] <AlwaysNever> web APIs afford bussines realigments, which are dangerous
[20:34:13] <AlwaysNever> SN is good just as it is
[20:34:15] <fab23> I guess pipecode with memcached can also be efficient
[20:35:04] <mechanicjay> AlwaysNever: ugly and hard as hell to trace subtle errors
[20:35:58] * fab23 should end his day, too many typos :)
[20:37:05] <mechanicjay> even better, the perl DBIx module, requires apache to run with the prefork worker
[20:39:47] <AlwaysNever> Anyway, the problem with any "new site" will be the social problem of bringing a community to that new site, very difficult to do that nowadays: to compete for people's attention against whatsapp, youtube, reddit, etc. Impossible
[20:40:17] <AlwaysNever> Slashdot could build a community because there was no other "social" software back in the day
[20:40:39] <AlwaysNever> now there are many many "social" platforms fighting to get people's attention
[20:41:07] <AlwaysNever> In SN we have to keep the community together, or it will be game over
[20:41:34] <mechanicjay> Yep -- Discord is the other big competetor for attention.
[20:45:12] <AlwaysNever> Also, there is a problem with comments devolving into fighting in SN, I know I've refrained myself in the past of link to SN because I was ashamed on the comments-fights in there
[20:45:52] <AlwaysNever> I didn't want to "endorse" that by linking to SN articles with "those" comments
[20:52:36] <AlwaysNever> So there's that. To build a community, or to keep it, some quality has to remain; there is certainly quality already in the editor's part, the articles are good; the comments, not so much sometimes; anything resembling policts should be banned, it's proven to rise the noise dramatically
[20:55:13] <mechanicjay> Yep, same for me. I avoided linking friends to SN for a long time -- it's recently gotten better and I've started doing so again as the noise has decreased significantly the last 6 months or so
[21:03:05] <AlwaysNever> mechanicjay: yeah, the fight in the comments are now as bad now as when TMB was "ruling by example" in the past
[21:03:24] <AlwaysNever> *re not as bad now
[21:13:54] <mechanicjay> Well, I think stopping AC posting on the front-page stuff was the big differentiator -- and also a big point of contention
[21:16:21] <Bytram> Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
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[21:33:42] <AlwaysNever> I've to go, bye you all
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[23:10:58] <kolie2> hello from staging.
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[23:23:57] <kolie> o/
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