#soylent | Logs for 2021-08-26
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[00:27:22] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - When America Had an Atomic Mecha Warrior Robot - https://sylnt.us - interesting-even-if-not-recent-news
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[03:07:16] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Newly Discovered Asteroid Comes Closer to the Sun than Mercury - https://sylnt.us - hot-stuff!
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[04:13:18] <SoyCow3492> =asub https://arstechnica.com
[04:13:21] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03COVID Hospitalization Averages $20K" (9p) -> https://soylentnews.org
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[05:56:56] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Mental Phenomena Don’t Map Into the Brain as Expected - https://sylnt.us - features-of-the-brain-state
[06:15:55] <FatPhil> not here - it's 5e, to stop tyre-kickers
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[08:18:59] -!- mode/#soylent [+v mechanicjay] by Aphrodite
[08:49:07] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Countering Climate Change With Cool Pavements - https://sylnt.us - use-marble-next
[11:26:44] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Seawater Could Provide Nearly Unlimited Amounts of Critical Battery Material - https://sylnt.us - could-provide
[13:50:56] <jman> Does anyone know of an Atom editor IRC channel besides SuckNode? Found one at irccloud but it seems empty.
[13:52:29] <boru> Chan lists don't turn up anything on pub nets I hang out on.
[13:53:22] <boru> JFC, read up a bit about that editor. What a nightmare.
[13:54:34] <t3> I like how confident they are that people will view HTML/CSS and javascript as /features/ in the editor
[13:55:44] <jman> bore: Well, it's certainly not Vim, but is cross-platform. A little quirky but it works.
[13:56:07] <boru> "Atom is a desktop application built using web technologies. Most of the extending packages have free software licenses and are community-built and maintained. Atom is based on Electron (formerly known as Atom Shell), a framework that enables cross-platform desktop applications using Chromium and Node.js. Atom is written in CoffeeScript and Less, but much of it has been converted to JavaScript."
[13:56:33] <boru> This is not a quirk, it is an abomination.
[13:57:10] <jman> To each his own. Bits are bits.
[13:57:16] <boru> Editor elitism aside.
[13:57:23] <boru> This software should simply not exist.
[13:57:40] <jman> Not trying to flame, what do you consider bad about it?
[13:57:55] <boru> The web technologies part.
[13:58:20] <boru> I can understand why there are no IRC channels.
[13:58:33] <jman> You mean using JS under the hood?
[13:58:45] <boru> All of it.
[13:58:50] <jman> Can see that too, it's modern, lots of kids don't use this format anymore.
[14:01:14] <boru> Indeed. I imagine its users would prefer some sort of http-rest-chat-as-a-service.
[14:01:54] <boru> Just send messages encapsulated in web pages to one another.
[14:01:55] <inz> It's annoying what passes as 'native' these days
[14:02:24] <inz> That sounded more racist than intended.
[14:02:33] * boru chuckles.
[14:02:47] <jman> Main reason I started playing with it was the cost. Sublime is a great Python script but it costs. VS Code is from Micro$loth. Vim can be wrangled quite a bit but haven't figured out how to get it to do something like goto-definition.
[14:03:33] <boru> For that, I use youcompleteme. ALE is also popular.
[14:04:04] <jman> On WinDoze platforms if I'm in the GUI I actually use Notepad++, it's fairly light-weight and free. When shelled in it's Vim.
[14:04:22] <jman> Thank Ghu for the WSL. Cygwin blew dead bears.
[14:04:43] <inz> goto-definition sounds like a job for vim-ctags
[14:05:00] <inz> But real men know where the definition is :)
[14:05:02] <boru> msys2 is alright if people _insist_ on using windows.
[14:05:11] <boru> It's far better than cygwin, since you have a package manager.
[14:05:42] <boru> Ctags is very limited, and slow. I used to use cscope until I discovered ycm.
[14:05:51] <jman> True that on knowing where my lines are, but with something like, say, a Laravel site that's a lot of remembering. ;)
[14:08:33] <boru> I whittled down my vim plugins recently; now it's just ycm, taglist, spacehi, gitgutter, fugitive, airline, nerdtree and nerdcommenter. I'd like to find a plugin that will properly syntax highlight preprocessor blocks using a llvm database, though.
[14:08:58] <boru> Actually, I also still have cscope for when I can't use ycm.
[14:16:58] <jman> According to the github repo, you-complete-me seems to be abandoned.
[14:18:01] <jman> Ouch. The FAQ talks about Python2. No wonder it's abandoned.
[14:18:21] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Blue Origin Employees Are Jumping Ship - https://sylnt.us - rats-and-sinking-suborbital-joyrides
[14:18:54] <boru> You must be on the wrong page, or some abandoned fork.
[14:19:20] <boru> It's very much in active development: https://github.com
[14:19:22] <systemd> ^ 03GitHub - ycm-core/YouCompleteMe: A code-completion engine for Vim
[14:19:55] <boru> And from what I can tell, it uses python 3.whatever.
[14:20:31] <jman> Possible on the FAQ. It's actually from a site called githubmemory.com. But the readme at https://github.com says no future updates.
[14:20:32] <systemd> ^ 03GitHub - Qusic/atom-youcompleteme: YouCompleteMe for Atom Editor
[14:20:54] <boru> Ah, atom. Yeah, no wonder it's abandoned.
[14:21:12] <jman> Circular reference. ;)
[14:21:13] <boru> The one for vim is actively developed.
[14:23:14] <jman> I guess I've never completely embraced Vim. I use it, but could not be considered more than basically competent. I still miss DOS's Edit program. Like Visual mode you could use CTRL-Arrow to select, then the standard C-X-V keys.
[14:23:44] <t3> kakoune is nice if you like multiple cursors
[14:23:47] <boru> People should just use whatever lets them get work done and stays out of their way.
[14:23:50] <boru> Except atom.
[14:24:29] <jman> Okay, that's enough of this conversation. Never did get a straight answer about why it's bad except "it's bad".
[14:25:19] <boru> I was quite explicit about the "web technologies" part.
[14:26:04] <jman> With all due respect, that's just an opinion, not an explanation.
[14:26:24] <boru> I was expressing my opinion, if that was not obvious.
[14:26:48] <boru> If you don't want to read it, feel free to /ignore me and not have your feathers ruffled about your favourite editor.
[14:27:12] <jman> Yeah, but I asked "why", not "what". Actually, I said "what do you consider bad about it".
[14:27:48] <jman> Not ruffled, and it's definitely not my favorite. Just didn't get a reasonble answer to a reasonable question.
[14:28:41] <boru> If you think that an editor consciously designed to use, and implemented with, web technologies is a sound decision, then I don't think I'll tell you anything you consider to be "reasonable".
[14:29:56] <jman> OK, so you don't want to say why, you just want to say it sucks. No worries!
[14:30:10] <boru> Web. Technologies.
[14:30:21] <boru> Do you normally have such problems with reading comprehension?
[14:30:30] <jman> Yeah, you keep saying that. And WHY?
[14:30:46] <jman> Was asking for opinion. Repeating thesis != explaining.
[14:31:18] <boru> The short and inoffensive version: they are not remotely suitable for the task.
[14:31:40] <jman> OK, obviously not communicating properly. Just drop it.
[14:32:06] <boru> No, I will continue to ridicule the atom project at my leisure.
[14:34:27] <jman> Your problem. So you think web technolgies sucks. That's all I've gotten. When I ask why you think that, you just keep repeating the opinion. That's lame.
[14:34:36] <boru> I would say that no IRC channels, abandoned forks of attempted integration of extensions for other editors is testement to what a truly awful idea it was to implement an editor with web technologies.
[14:36:05] <boru> I don't see how expressing my opinion or poking fun at the project is somehow my problem.
[14:36:18] <boru> I'm sure only you and the other ten atom users will be upset about.
[14:36:23] <boru> About it, rather.
[14:37:00] <jman> Have used a litle of these over the years: Fortran, Cobol, JCL, Bash, DOS, Python, PHP, CSS, JavaScript, SQL, C, Powershell, etc. Am language agnostic. Was just asking a question, if you don't want to discuss it, not my problem.
[14:39:01] <boru> Language agnosticism is precisely why people select the wrong tool for the job, like web technologies for an editor. Programming languages are tools. You don't cut wood with a hammer.
[14:39:50] <jman> Circular reference. "This widget Sucks!" "Why does it suck?" "Because this widget sucks!"
[14:41:13] <jman> Last I heard anyway, JS was still #1 in languages, but I have faith Python will take over eventually.
[14:41:16] <boru> You're right. Let's implement compilers in javascript, and parse text with C or assembly language. These things make sense in the universe where atom was a sound idea.
[14:42:53] <jman> What would be the alternative? Writing it in C or compiling Python like Sublime does? Machines are *so* much more powerful these days. Interprative languages used to be inferior due to the complitaion cycle. With stronger hardware, that distinction is erasing.
[14:43:22] <boru> Indeed, so we might as well just use more resources on a computer just because they're there!
[14:43:34] <boru> Why not use all of the resources!
[14:44:14] <boru> If you can't recognise that some tools are more suitable for some tasks than others, I really hope we never end up working together.
[14:44:56] <jman> Come on. The Univac 1050 I ran in the service had 4K of memory. It couldn't even compile a whole program at once. Comparing that to a modern machine's capabilities is unrealistic.
[14:45:11] <jman> And again, all I asked was WHY. You won't say. You just keep saying it sucks.
[14:45:17] <boru> I never mentioned that machine, or any machine like. I don't understand your point.
[14:46:28] <boru> Seems more like an academic exercise, really.
[14:46:38] <jman> The point being that hardware is much stronger these days, so the *need* for compiling is being eroded. Yes, there are still many cases for it, but for many applications - such as a simple text editor - one can get away with an interpreted language running the show.
[14:47:18] <boru> One can also cut down a tree with a herring, but it doesn't mean it's a sensible idea.
[14:47:27] <jman> Still not saying WHY.
[14:47:34] <boru> Compiled languages are not going anywhere.
[14:48:12] <jman> Didn't say that. Said interpreted methods are on the rise due to hardware being stronger.
[14:49:05] <jman> I run a Mac these days but still compile most of my apps. It's BSD under the hood so a sane operating system.
[14:49:34] <boru> I am amazed that you keep asking me to explain why; you've allegedly used all of those programming languages like "DOS" as you said before, so surely you must understand that some tools are better for some tasks than others.
[14:49:38] <jman> Clicking is fine, but most of my day is spent in a terminal so prefer the keyboard.
[14:50:14] <jman> OK, why exactly, since the hardware is capable, is it a problem?
[14:50:17] <boru> Mac OS isn't BSD anymore.
[14:51:07] <jman> ? Still BSD under the hood. A pretty big fork, but the same. Came from when he had NeXT.
[14:51:23] <boru> No, it's not.
[14:53:11] <jman> ~: uname -a
[14:53:13] <jman> ~: Darwin machine.local 19.6.0 Darwin Kernel Version 19.6.0: Thu Oct 29 22:56:45 PDT 2020; root:xnu-6153.141.2.2~1/RELEASE_X86_64 x86_64 i386 iMac19,1 Darwin
[14:53:20] <jman> https://en.wikipedia.org(operating_system)
[14:53:22] <systemd> ^ 03Darwin (operating system) - Wikipedia
[14:56:17] <boru> I am well aware what darwin is, but if you've followed development of the operating system, you'll know that it has been almost completely re-written, and whilst it remains partially POSIX-compliant, it is very much not BSD anymore.
[14:59:17] <jman> This is pointless. Thanks for the non-info on my query re why web technologies sucks. Going back to work now...
[15:01:38] <boru> Well, you seem to be lacking basic information about these technologies that you profess to know about, so you're welcome.
[15:21:11] <raxas> bsd layer in true macos is not only officially deprecated for quite a long time, it's already broken, by many ways. and that I still sit on darwin 14.5.0 kernel, for a reason. the platform has no future
[15:22:09] <raxas> absolutely no future in unix world
[15:50:05] <FatPhil> Apparently it takes 24 minutes to get a pension company to send a form to me and delete one errant character from my address. Gone half-mad from hold music - one short song in a loop.
[15:53:05] <FatPhil> I have 1% and 10% confidence those two tasks have actually been performed correctly too.
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[16:08:27] * Runaway1956 searches his keyboard for the standard C-X-V key
[16:09:42] * Runaway1956 heads off to bed to dream about cutting down a tree with a herring - it remains to be seen what color herring.
[16:14:00] <AzumaHazuki> =submit https://www.thedailybeast.com from the definition-of-insanity dept.
[16:14:03] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Warnings About the Sturgis Rally Have Come Tragically True" (29p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[16:16:55] <requerdanos> They're spreading covid by motorcycle now
[16:21:36] <AzumaHazuki> they did this shit last year. i fucking hate these people, bearded fucking plague rats on 2-wheeled fart cans
[16:37:39] <AzumaHazuki> =submit https://arstechnica.com from the this-again? dept.
[16:37:42] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Silent Changes to Western Digital’s Budget SSD May Lower Speeds by Up to 50%" (9p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[16:52:58] <janrinok> AzumaHazuki, I might borrow that description - "bearded fucking plague rats on 2-wheeled fart cans"
[16:53:21] <AzumaHazuki> go for it. it's under a CC (creative cussin') 3.0 license =P
[16:53:27] <janrinok> lol
[16:57:55] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Recent and Not So Recent Changes in OpenBSD That Make Life Better - https://sylnt.us - shut-up-and-hack
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[17:06:20] <FatPhil> AzumaHazuki++ yup, that's hilarious!
[17:06:20] <Bender> karma - azumahazuki: 81
[17:07:02] <FatPhil> The think I like so much about sturgis is the number who drive their bikes up on trailers, and then only do the last mile on the hog itself.
[17:13:23] <raxas> https://www.youtube.com
[17:13:25] <systemd> ^ 03Vladimir Putin Rides With Night Wolves Bikers in Crimea - Vladimir Putin Com Night Wolves
[17:39:48] <bacterium> 2 words: fucking gangster
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[17:49:08] <FatPhil> On Krim soil, he's a foreign aggressor.
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[19:32:19] -!- mode/#soylent [+v requerdanos] by Aphrodite
[19:37:03] <bacterium> not according to his own world map lol
[19:37:28] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - US Government Agencies Plan to Increase Their Use of Facial Recognition Technology - https://sylnt.us - who's-looking-at-you,-kid?
[19:57:39] <FatPhil> Wowzeroonies - Taskmaster NZ has just taken the formula to a whole new level!
[20:04:25] <chromas> formula 2?
[20:07:58] <FatPhil> TIL: https://en.wikipedia.org
[20:07:59] <systemd> ^ 03Spots (cannabis) - Wikipedia
[20:09:00] <chromas> never heard it called spotting
[20:09:07] <chromas> must be a euro thing
[20:09:41] <chromas> 'ave a spot o' tea? after a spot o' green
[20:11:27] <bacterium> spot on, man, spot on
[20:35:36] <FatPhil> seems like a NZ-ish thing
[20:40:36] <FatPhil> This looks like a useful product: https://www.familie-lager.de
[20:40:37] <systemd> ^ 03handy dandy bullshit grinder sale
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[22:00:00] <Runaway1956> mv /tmp.orig /tmp
[22:04:20] <tedious> So are we going to have another war in afghanistan now? :(
[22:04:49] <tedious> I don't know why I even look at the news anymore.
[22:13:47] <t3> peace isn't profitable, how will the pork flow if the bombs aren't being dropped?
[22:15:18] <Runaway1956> raxas that looks like a Trump rally but better because BIKES!! https://www.youtube.com
[22:15:19] <systemd> ^ 03Vladimir Putin Rides With Night Wolves Bikers in Crimea - Vladimir Putin Com Night Wolves
[22:17:11] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - FAA to Review Boeing Employee Reports of Pressure Over Safety Issues - https://sylnt.us
[22:35:51] <raxas> VVP is street child, that's why all the aristocracy hate him unbearable. some of those bikers are his old friends, night wolves is his gang
[22:39:07] <FatPhil> ZH carried a story a week back comparing the growth of MIC shares vs. the rest of the S&P over the last 20 years. You get about twice the growth if you go with the MIC. Quelle suprise.
[22:54:36] <tedious> Putin has old biker friends?
[22:54:56] <tedious> Um why would he have friends like that?
[22:55:24] <tedious> Weren't his parents fairly well to do?
[23:00:29] <bacterium> this is all for show, this is like donnie and his trucker friends
[23:00:47] <bacterium> vova putin doesn't have any friends, just underlings
[23:03:57] <tedious> https://phys.org
[23:03:58] <systemd> ^ 03Fracking comes at the expense of water quality
[23:05:09] <tedious> I guess I need to find a few russians I can trust and ask them to explain their country to me because I barely know anything and what I do know is probably wrong.
[23:05:55] <raxas> =submit https://www.bbc.com
[23:05:57] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Lisa Shaw: Presenter's Death Due to Complications of Covid Vaccine" (30p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[23:06:04] <raxas> =submit https://www.theguardian.com
[23:06:06] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03BBC Presenter Lisa Shaw Died of Covid Vaccine Complications, Coroner Finds" (18p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[23:06:20] <raxas> =submit https://www.thesun.co.uk
[23:06:23] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03BBC Star Lisa, 44, Had Brain Bleed After 'Complications' From AZ Jab - Coroner" (2p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[23:06:41] <tedious> What kind of vaccine is the astrazeneca one?
[23:06:59] <raxas> I call this "extremely rare karma"
[23:08:33] <raxas> =submit https://www.nytimes.com
[23:08:36] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Japan Halts 1.6 Million Doses of the Moderna Vaccine Over Contamination Worries." (13p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[23:09:39] <raxas> =submit https://www.japantimes.co.jp
[23:09:42] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Pharmaceutical Firms Rake in Billions With COVID-19 Shots" (29p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[23:12:17] <raxas> that's all, folks. now excuse me again, I am back to Skyrim, keeping up a fancy vampire lv53 character
[23:18:36] <bacterium> you have no reason to trust this particular russian, tedious, but i did grow up there until the age of 20, and left just around the time putin became prime minister, in 1999
[23:23:56] <tedious> Did you leave because you or your parents thought he was a bad guy and you needed to get out?
[23:24:16] <tedious> Or am I getting too excited about drama.
[23:34:29] <bacterium> well my dad hates the whole system
[23:34:50] <bacterium> he moved us out at the first opportunity, he's a programmer, and there was a dotcom boom
[23:35:09] <bacterium> so we moved to the bay area, ca
[23:35:52] <tedious> Oh boy I have so many questions. :)
[23:35:52] <bacterium> when putin rolled it, it just proved to them how right they were :)
[23:36:32] <tedious> So they prefer the old communist system and don't like what replaced it?
[23:36:44] <bacterium> noooooo they hate communism & socialism
[23:37:08] <bacterium> they vote republican party as a principle, because dems "will turn this country into cuba"
[23:37:13] <bacterium> or sonething
[23:38:00] <bacterium> they are really sold on the US notion of individual liberty, and "small" gov that does not meddle in people's affairs
[23:38:02] <tedious> So putin is pro communist or socialist?
[23:38:34] <bacterium> it's funny, they are realist about russian gov, but idealist about US gov, fancy that
[23:38:48] <bacterium> they regard putin as what he is: a thief
[23:38:51] <bacterium> gangster
[23:38:52] <tedious> I feel so stupid about one of the biggest and most important countries in the world.
[23:39:16] <tedious> Oh ok I have heard him called a gangster a millon times on american media.
[23:39:17] <bacterium> russia is ruled by a thieves guild, that's probably the most concise way of describing it
[23:39:27] <tedious> I just assumed it was insults.
[23:39:32] <bacterium> not really
[23:39:37] <tedious> Oligarchs?
[23:40:01] <bacterium> putin has offed people. the law does not apply to police OR elite in russia
[23:40:16] <bacterium> yeah oligarchs are at the table
[23:40:43] <bacterium> it's basically top police, top military, and top oligarchs, they run everything as a guild
[23:41:09] <bacterium> putin does not have all power, he cannot go against the guild
[23:41:23] <bacterium> but he is the one vested with power, for example, to murder disseidents
[23:42:36] <tedious> So he's the hired manager of the corrupt organization.
[23:43:02] <bacterium> pretty much, and with significant popular support as well
[23:43:17] <bacterium> as it stands for now
[23:43:46] <bacterium> though lately there are stirrings, and rumors, it looks like the elite is begining to get tired with him
[23:45:42] <bacterium> i gotta go back to work, mon,nice chatting :D
[23:45:42] <tedious> So so many questions. :)
[23:45:50] <tedious> Yes thank you very much.
[23:46:01] <bacterium> lol i am lurking here all the time, metion my nick, and chances are i will come through
[23:46:09] <tedious> Any time you feel like talking I would love to read whatever you have to say on this subject.
[23:46:22] <tedious> I'll try better next time to not interrupt. :)
[23:46:26] <bacterium> rgr, i'll say hi if i see you again :)
[23:46:36] <bacterium> no no, my pleasure