#soylent | Logs for 2021-05-22

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[00:00:08] <Sulla> I'm sure that made you feel relieved
[00:00:21] <FatPhil> It did actually. I was a very trusting person.
[00:00:24] <Sulla> slash s
[00:00:27] <Sulla> lol
[00:00:40] <Sulla> At Kendall auto I was a lot crew person, preparing cars, cleaning, etc
[00:00:48] <Sulla> two of the people on my crew kept stealing
[00:00:51] <Sulla> i kept reporting it
[00:01:19] <Sulla> turns out one of the kids was a managers son, so high up manager told me that they knew it wasn't me but they want the squeeky wheel to go away
[00:01:46] <Sulla> so I handed him my keys and left and they marked me down as "rehirable, left with two week notice"
[00:02:08] <AzumaHazuki> eesh
[00:02:15] <Sulla> because these guys were stealing wash towels, we were given three towels to last the whole weekend
[00:02:44] <Sulla> had to wash three black 80k lexus in a row one night, with only three dirty towells
[00:02:48] <Sulla> stttrrreesss
[00:03:03] <bacteria> moral: the more you have, the more you steal
[00:03:17] <FatPhil> sometimes in different ways
[00:03:39] <Sulla> It was stuff like taking fluids from the mechanic shop next door to fill their own cars, washing their own cars off the clock, etc
[00:03:53] <Sulla> sometimes mechanic tools went missing
[00:04:15] <Sulla> so definitly more important to just make the squeeky wheel disapear
[00:05:26] <Sulla> Managers son at one point was backing out of the shop with a brand new 4runner. I pointed out he forgot to clean his tail lights
[00:05:44] <Sulla> so he jumps out without putting it in park and it drives straight into a new tacoma
[00:06:10] <Sulla> I get in trouble for reporting it because then they couldn't blame it on shipping and it made the son look bad
[00:06:12] <bacteria> oh yeah. the big one i got to witness, a floor manager, 2 sales, and 2 casheers colluding to ring laptops as nothing. they closed the store for this one, let the staff watch them being escorted out by fuzz
[00:06:25] <Sulla> wow
[00:08:27] <mrpg> I worked at a restaurant and the cook was fired cause he arrived drunk, and had beers hidden in the kitchen.
[00:08:28] <Sulla> In general theft goes nowhere. its barely an enforable crime depending on your juristidction. In the case of accounting fraud its not even prosecuted unless its more than 20-30k. Needs to be cheaper to pay someone to investigate the crime than it was in theft
[00:10:01] <FatPhil> I know a brewer who was sacked after he was found in the morning passed out near the kit with empty bottles of red wine around him.
[00:10:01] <mrpg> I was thinking he might have cognitive defficiencies 'cause he was a little weird, turns out he was just in the middle line between drunk and sober.
[00:10:10] <FatPhil> Not our brewery!!!!
[00:10:27] <Sulla> If you have no scruples the big money is in accounting fraud. Become office manager, skim 15k in a way thats hard to track (easy in small businesses who never track their books), leave, do the same somewhere else. Then keep repeating it
[00:10:56] <FatPhil> Anyway - time for bed, have a fun evening everyone
[00:11:00] <Sulla> Businesses will only say "not rehirable" when called for references because they cant prove it and dont want sued, if you are a good talker you just tell them personal issue
[00:11:23] <Sulla> Case i worked in college up in Alaska had a lady who had done this to 15 or so businesses in under a year
[00:11:28] <Sulla> cya fatphil
[00:11:36] <bacteria> o/ FP
[00:12:02] <requerdanos> Then again, I know a woman who did it to one business who suspected something and hired an accountant; result was prison
[00:12:29] <mrpg> I worked at a university. there were often robberies but no doors broken, windows intact. One day I dont remeber how they caught two of the security guards. one had 14 computers at home taken from the students' lab.
[00:12:47] <bacteria> dude here in california, chefs snort coke off stainless kitchen counters, no one give a shit, beacuse they don't get paid enough to live on
[00:13:21] <bacteria> "stealing food" is not a thing, unless you are at mcdonalds
[00:13:56] <Sulla> Typically it costs way more to hire an accountant to find possible fraud than the loss was, so good to hear that business did that
[00:13:57] <mrpg> And an intern stole something too from the lab. But the security camera got him.
[00:14:20] <Sulla> Im the crazy type who has returned pens ive taken, so hard for me to imagine
[00:14:29] <Sulla> but researching and investigating fraud is fun as heck
[00:14:53] <mrpg> And a girl from the book store robbed something too, also the camera got her. they told her and Monday morning she came to give it back.
[00:15:58] <Sulla> In fraud accounting we say that there are 10% who will always steal, 10% who would never, and 8% who will if there is opportunity, incentive, and rationalization
[00:16:11] <mrpg> Where I worked, I was robbed of: a fan, a PC, a monitor or two. Well not me, it was office supplies so not mine.
[00:16:16] <Sulla> 80%
[00:16:31] <mrpg> I went from I dont rmebrr what to a Pentium 4....
[00:17:13] <Sulla> I imagine covid will end up with a lot of office equipment theft
[00:17:30] <Sulla> stuff that was taken and not recorded, stuff that was distributed for eventual return and not recorded
[00:17:55] <Sulla> was a lot of chaos, at least where i worked, in the early months that never got fixed
[00:21:13] <bacteria> that's russia pre-covid
[00:21:14] <SoyCow1016> It's funny you should mention that about chefs. Louis Rossmann just did a video on restaurants and the comments mentions how the waiters/FOH get way more than the BOH.
[00:21:40] <requerdanos> they get more, or get away with more?
[00:22:22] <bacteria> yeah waiters get away with anything, waiters here in ca are drunk when they show up, and they get fired only if the manager has an epic hangover
[00:22:23] <SoyCow1016> But some restaurants will insist on taking the tips, not allowing the guest to directly give tips to the FOH, so that they can split it with both the FOH and BOH. I think that's fair.
[00:23:02] <SoyCow1016> Hoenstly, that's the way it should be. The people in the back work hard too and deserve a fair share of the tips
[00:23:05] <bacteria> ffs SoyCow1016 this is the way it should be, until we can fucking kill the tips
[00:23:12] <requerdanos> well, depends on what everyone's getting paid.
[00:23:43] <SoyCow1016> Bacteria, in many cases that's not the way it is though. That's my point. Waiters get more than the back of house
[00:23:48] <bacteria> i tip like a champ, or my wife would divorce me, but we both agree (she's an insider) tips are retarded
[00:23:55] <requerdanos> a waitstaff making $2.85/hr shouldn't have to split tips with a BOH worker making $9
[00:24:29] <SoyCow1016> Well 2.85 an hour is below minimum wage in CA so if a restaurant were paying that little they would probably be breaking the law
[00:24:36] <bacteria> the waitstuff should have minimal wage + health insurance, imho
[00:24:55] <bacteria> no they are not SoyCow1016 the law is very interesting like that
[00:25:19] <SoyCow1016> In fact I'm pretty sure 2.85 is well below the fed minu
[00:25:22] <SoyCow1016> minimum wage *
[00:25:33] <Sulla> At lest in Oregon/Alaska if a server who starts at 2.85/hr + tips ends up making less than state minimum wage the restaurant has to pay them the difference
[00:25:53] <bacteria> google "minimal waiter wage in us"
[00:26:12] <bacteria> 2 fucking 13
[00:26:14] <Sulla> In oregon/alaska its ~15 depending on county/~12
[00:26:18] <SoyCow1016> Yeah, that's how if often works. Same with commission jobs as well
[00:26:24] <bacteria> differs state by state, granted
[00:26:51] <SoyCow1016> If your commission is less than the minimum wage the company has to pay the difference.
[00:26:58] <requerdanos> yeah federal minimum wage for servers is $2.13. Tips count towards satisfying the $2.13. https://webapps.dol.gov
[00:27:00] <systemd> ^ 03elaws - Fair Labor Standards Act Advisor
[00:27:49] <SoyCow1016> I know that but the point is that there should be some sort of tip sharing strategy. Different restaurants may do it differently but it shouldn't be that the FOH consistently gets way more than the BOH which, in some cases, it is
[00:28:06] <Sulla> from oregon's website "The tipped wage is the base wage for employees who earn tips (such as servers and bartenders). Tipped employees are guaranteed to earn the minimum wage when tips are included."
[00:28:14] <requerdanos> there should be fair, living wage compensation.
[00:28:20] <Sulla> for oregon thats a minimum of 12/hour but depends on county
[00:28:27] <bacteria> here's a fresh idea: minimal wage == minimal wage
[00:28:57] <Sulla> Its interesting how far apart the range can be for what servers make
[00:29:13] <SoyCow1016> The point is that it still has to meet the much higher federal minimum wage standard after tips.
[00:29:35] <Sulla> Had a family member working at olive garden that was making 55k/year, yet a bunch are going to be abel to barely pull 12/hour
[00:29:36] <requerdanos> well, in theory
[00:31:14] <bacteria> SoyCow1016: i was there when my wife's stuff was in a perfect position to file class action, you know what happened? nothing, because waiters are the windy type, and they don't feel like they have time for litigation
[00:31:25] <bacteria> the staff of place she was at*
[00:31:58] <SoyCow1016> "fair" is relative. Living ... in opposed to, say, not having a job if the restaurant doesn't exist? These nebulous terms are difficult to really discuss reasonably. I do think that the model of many restaurants needs to change though so that there isn't such a huge disparity between the BOH and the FOH.
[00:32:23] <bacteria> also, they are always broke
[00:32:56] * bacteria recalls the time when he was a soycow.....
[00:33:04] <Sulla> The increase in unemployments effects on manufacturing jobs in oregon turned a lot of my opinions on its head. People who were making 48k/year on a line are reducing their availiblity til the company just can't get them to come in, then getting ~35k in unemployment. But also telling the company they intend to go back up to full employment when the unemployment benefits are gone
[00:33:05] <SoyCow1016> lol
[00:33:28] <Sulla> i figured it would be dumb ecause you give up your healthcare, but we have tons of open positions paying 21-26/hour
[00:33:53] <bacteria> 4pro tip: /nick TEH_NICK_OF_YOUR_DREAMS
[00:34:20] <requerdanos> I have seen otherwise intelligent people say "I don't need healthcare right now bc I'm not sick"
[00:34:38] <SoyCow1016> Well here is the way I kinda see it WRT healthcare
[00:35:12] <SoyCow1016> I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't eat sugary foods. Other people make bad health choices. So statistically speaking me having to compensate soemone else's bad health choices doesn't make sense for me. Why should I have to?
[00:36:13] <bacteria> you are correct, SoyCow1016, which is why the best answer that can be give you is: by law
[00:36:30] <Sulla> In oregon there is also nothing stopping me from buying healthcare and having it be activated the same day I need it. If you aren't concerned about accidents, just get it when you get cancer
[00:36:32] <SoyCow1016> That's a horrible, unfair, answer bacteria
[00:36:45] <mrpg> When I was cleaning dishes the waiters gave me 3$ of their tips daily.
[00:37:08] <bacteria> if you are ok with paying for bombing brown people, you should be ok with healing white people, that's the american way
[00:37:16] <SoyCow1016> If someone has a legitimate health condition that their bad choices did not contribute to I have zero problems with government helping them out. To the extent that their own bad decisions contributed to their bad health I have zero sympathy for them
[00:37:33] <requerdanos> A better answer may be that it's simpler and cheaper overall to pool risk rather than to divide it out invidually
[00:38:00] <bacteria> but it is an ethical issue as well requerdanos and we don't want to gloss over that
[00:38:11] <bacteria> and a political one as well
[00:38:48] <SoyCow1016> It is an ethical issue. it is unethical to require me to pay for someone else's bad decisions
[00:39:07] <bacteria> incorrect. money is a game.
[00:39:16] <bacteria> if we agree on rules, we play
[00:39:40] <SoyCow1016> The rules need to be that I should not pay for your bad decisions
[00:39:43] <requerdanos> agreed. if pooling risk makes it cheaper, idc about supporting the smokers
[00:39:47] <Sulla> There should be a way to check out of the rules, other than just going and joining the amish
[00:39:54] <bacteria> violence is right around the corner to make sure everyone is on the same page though, that's something....
[00:39:55] <Sulla> according to my work's internal actuarials
[00:40:01] <SoyCow1016> The rules need to encourage you to make good decisions. If you burn your own house down why should I pay for that?
[00:40:10] <Sulla> smokers are cheaper becasue they die faster instead of waiting til they get dementia and linger for decades in memory care
[00:40:32] <requerdanos> yeah it's the low sugar low fat folks that are high cost, hmm?
[00:41:45] <bacteria> 00:40 < SoyCow1016> The rules need to encourage you to make good decisions. 9i disagree actually
[00:42:04] <bacteria> the rules are there so that the state doesn't fuck me dead
[00:42:17] <bacteria> i can handle the rest
[00:42:21] <Runaway1956> SoyCow1016 seems to be asking for single payer health care
[00:42:41] <Runaway1956> You pay into it all your life, but it's for YOU, not for the guy down the street.
[00:42:46] <SoyCow1016> Of course those that make bad decisions are going to disagree. They want me to pay for their bad decisions. Like you said, it has to do with ethics. That's unethical
[00:43:08] <SoyCow1016> Not necessarily runaway
[00:43:11] <bacteria> they don't think their decision are bad
[00:43:20] <bacteria> this is relativism, friend
[00:43:46] <SoyCow1016> I think more neuance needs to be considered. Like what you pay and what you get covered for may depend on your own decisions. If you make bad decisions (and we have to figure out to what extent we can determine this and how) maybe then you pay more. Those that make good decisions pay less
[00:44:13] <SoyCow1016> If you have a genetic disorder I don't mind paying for you. If you were a drunk smoker then I do
[00:44:23] <SoyCow1016> That's all I'm saying
[00:44:38] <bacteria> that's because you are not a drunk smoker, do you see what i am saying?
[00:44:51] <requerdanos> "Doctors recommend CAMEL with the FILTER TIP" - "Got a cold? Smoke a Kool." Friendly reminder that what is interpreted as "bad decisions" may change over time.
[00:44:51] <bacteria> you and your healthy ways are in the minority
[00:44:57] <SoyCow1016> bacteria you're the on that brought up the ethical issues. I'm just explaining why, if anything, it is your position that is unethical
[00:44:59] <Runaway1956> Genetic disorders are ethical problems too - your parents should have known better, so they should have to pay for your disorder, not taxpayers
[00:45:33] <bacteria> SoyCow1016: we are both talking about ethics, but in different planes, so to speak
[00:45:58] <Sulla> Genetics aren't always straight forward
[00:46:10] <Sulla> not everyone does gene diagrams before having kids
[00:46:14] <SoyCow1016> Well the person with the genetic disorder did not choose to have a genetic disorder
[00:46:39] <Sulla> I mean my wife and I did but twins came out nowhere in either family history
[00:46:50] <SoyCow1016> The person that eats junk food, drinks, and smokes knows better and chose to do it anyways. They alone should bear the burden of their bad decisions
[00:47:29] <requerdanos> perhaps they have a genetic disorder that causes them to feel the need for more fat/sugar and predisposes them to addiction, especially to tobacco?
[00:48:12] <Runaway1956> I've read articles suggesting exactly that requerdanos
[00:48:19] <SoyCow1016> They still made the decision to do it and government shouldn't encourage them to. Bad government policy will result in more people making bad choices.
[00:48:39] <SoyCow1016> So as a whole we need government policy that encourages people not to so that the overall outcome is that more people make good choices
[00:48:51] <AzumaHazuki> ^ this
[00:48:59] <Runaway1956> Of course, I've also read articles suggesting that we should never punish any bad actors because they had no choice . . .
[00:49:05] <AzumaHazuki> people respond better to incentives than punishments
[00:49:18] <SoyCow1016> Let's just let people that murder out free because it could have been a genetic disorder
[00:49:31] <AzumaHazuki> sure, that's totally an apples to apples comparison
[00:49:36] <SoyCow1016> If we just let people steal and get away with it ... blame it on genetics ... that's just great too right
[00:49:50] <AzumaHazuki> hasty generalization fallacy
[00:50:05] <Runaway1956> Now you get that whole Critical Race Theory!!
[00:50:16] <AzumaHazuki> the distinguishing factor here is you're trying to compare things that harm oneself with things that harm others
[00:50:32] <Sulla> I'm gonna agree with 1016 as its consistant with not paying for abortion except in the case of rape. Or maybe his argument is just that they instantly go into a higher payment backet for insurance for being shown to be poor decision makers
[00:50:41] <requerdanos> while there may or may not be genetic factors inducing people to steal and/or kill, I don't think they are relevant to health care
[00:51:52] <AzumaHazuki> don't we already charge smokers more?
[00:52:11] <SoyCow1016> the distinguishing factor is arbitrary. The point is to reduce harm regardless
[00:52:16] <bacteria> look omg there are 2 extremes: let people make all the choices (somalia), and let people make no choices (north korea), and i know in my bones, i want to be somewhere in the middle
[00:52:42] <AzumaHazuki> consider the longer-term effects, too. i get the urge to be punitive, but in the long run that costs more
[00:52:48] <SoyCow1016> Let people make all the choices but let them pay for the consequences of their own choices themselves
[00:52:49] <AzumaHazuki> so it's not even a moral question at this point
[00:53:11] <bacteria> SoyCow1016: you are presuming that costs are computable (a math term)
[00:53:40] <AzumaHazuki> besides which, this mindset also has a hidden "everyone suffers equal consequences for poor decisions" assumption, and this is manifestly NOT the case
[00:53:59] <AzumaHazuki> if anything, rich people can get away scot-free with many poor decisions, including those that would get normal people jailed for life
[00:54:03] <SoyCow1016> Insurance companies know what to charge a smoker vs a non-smoker for health insurance. They look at facts and figures and statistics and figure it out
[00:54:09] <SoyCow1016> If they can do it then why can't the government?
[00:54:14] <requerdanos> I know people who have died from alcoholism, but was that their choice or the result of an illness?
[00:54:32] <bacteria> rich people crack me up, zum, these fuckers don't work a day in their life
[00:54:54] <AzumaHazuki> requerdanos: we're dealing with another libertarian i'm guessing? another one born on third base who thinks he hit a triple? it's almost not worth the time arguing...
[00:55:30] <requerdanos> While I do lean libertarian, the question is genuine, if rhetorical
[00:56:37] <bacteria> SoyCow1016: insurance companies in unites states, at least, have captured the relative agencies and are making coke+hookers money right now, your economical analysis notwithstanding
[00:57:13] <requerdanos> maybe it's because they split their tips
[00:57:14] <bacteria> i don't trust them, until they are regulated
[00:57:28] <raxas> you can never optimize everything. you must do a choice.
[00:57:45] <bacteria> hi 13raxas!
[00:57:46] <SoyCow1016> The point is that you use similar metrics that your prudent insurance company would use
[00:57:52] <SoyCow1016> you use facts, figures, statistics, etc...
[00:58:10] <SoyCow1016> You compare the cost of your average smoker to that of your average non-smoker and you factor that into what a smoker would pay
[00:58:12] <SoyCow1016> You can tax the cigarettes
[00:58:15] <SoyCow1016> You can tax the beer itself
[00:58:18] <SoyCow1016> You can tax the sugary foods
[00:58:24] <SoyCow1016> you take that money and put it into the healthcare
[00:58:38] * bacteria floats up in a glass of 4roja
[00:59:15] <bacteria> i broadly agree with this kind of thrust, but devil is in the details
[01:00:45] <requerdanos> In my state, the state lottery funds education. When it was instituted, lo and behold education funds were cut by about the amount the lottery kicked in.
[01:01:09] <SoyCow1016> Well that's a different issue
[01:01:33] <requerdanos> I see a similar thing happening with healthcare if magic bad behavior taxes start to supplement healthcare funds--that it might just free up funds already being used for healthcare, for something else.
[01:01:47] <SoyCow1016> Government always eventually redistributes what should go into one fund into the general funds. I’m assuming an honest government first of all.
[01:02:24] <Sulla> oregon has to increase taxes through referendum. To get around other programs not being solvent and needing money they changed the law so that referendums could not stipulate budget. So you would get one come through for a tobacco tax for prevention, and fine print saying "any portion non-constitutional wont apply"
[01:02:30] <bacteria> i am extremely biased on this issue, being a state-employed educator, but i gather that just throwing money at education does nothing. i would worry about things like, are educators paid enough? can schools afford books?
[01:02:33] <Sulla> then when it fails, the governor bitches that now she cant fund PERS
[01:02:37] <SoyCow1016> In principle it should be done the way I mention. In practice government will screw everything up regardless of how it's supposed to be implemented but that's something that is left up to us to hold governments accountable
[01:02:39] <requerdanos> not to say the idea is a bad one, just that I doubt its implementation would be effective
[01:04:06] <SoyCow1016> Well you can say that about anything the government attempts to implement
[01:04:32] <SoyCow1016> It can be implemented effectively if we voted in the right politicians. Principle an implentation are two different animals.
[01:05:07] * bacteria are listening 2 http://tehightime.net
[01:05:14] <requerdanos> My confidence in the "right" (as in competent, altruistic) politicians getting voted in is similarly low.
[01:05:55] <requerdanos> I think "making it foolproof" might be a better approach than "elect someone who is not a fool"
[01:06:02] <SoyCow1016> That's not an argument against my ideas. That's just an argument against the government's ability to implment anything efficiently
[01:06:23] <requerdanos> right you are.
[01:06:58] <Runaway1956> [05/21/21 19:58:24] <SoyCow1016> you take that money and put it into the healthcare
[01:07:14] <Runaway1956> The problem is, they DO NOT put that money into healthcare, at least in the US
[01:07:37] <Runaway1956> cigarette taxes are used for all sorts of things, but they don't create accounts for smoker's health care
[01:07:38] <SoyCow1016> Ok, so we identified the problem
[01:07:45] <SoyCow1016> That's a start.
[01:08:11] <requerdanos> I think a $2 minimum wage is also a problem
[01:08:45] <SoyCow1016> That's not the minimum wage
[01:08:46] <Runaway1956> if 80% of alcohol taxes, and 80% of tobacco taxes went into funds for health care, then we could stop complaining about smokers and drinkers not paying their way
[01:09:00] <SoyCow1016> I agree runaway. So we should maybe fix that
[01:09:13] <Sulla> too many budget holes, will never be done
[01:10:01] <Runaway1956> The guy who drinks a case of beer and a fifth of whatever every day pays a helluva lot of taxes in his lifetime, lol
[01:10:02] <requerdanos> sorry, $2.13
[01:10:22] * bacteria listening 2 http://tehightime.net
[01:10:28] <SoyCow1016> The federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour
[01:10:59] <SoyCow1016> $2.13 before tips but after tips it must be 7.25 or else the restaurant must pay the difference
[01:11:22] <requerdanos> For servers it's $2.13. as written, tips must make up the difference, but in practice, it's not so. employers will claim the employee is not reporting cash tips, for example. there's no such thing as an employer actually making up the difference.
[01:11:37] <Runaway1956> Yes, and that $2.13 is one of the grossest of insults
[01:11:39] <SoyCow1016> The law and its enforcement are two different things
[01:11:55] <SoyCow1016> If you are arguing that the actual law is not being enforced that's a separate issue than arguing what the law actually says
[01:12:05] <bacteria> SoyCow1016: not an issue in practice, the tips are good for most people, and make a wage one can kind of live on, but the whole system is fucked up, wouldn't you agree?
[01:12:17] <SoyCow1016> Yes
[01:12:18] <Sulla> https://www.goldstarlaw.com
[01:12:19] <systemd> ^ 03Is a waiter or waitress exempt from minimum wage and overtime?
[01:13:24] <bacteria> the waiter has to drop down on knees and present to get these tips, that's how the system works, is that ok?
[01:14:40] <Sulla> I'm okay with doing standard minimum wage + tips if there is at will employment
[01:15:37] <bacteria> that would be a vast improvement
[01:16:50] * AzumaHazuki hopes our libertarian friend ends up getting the dirty end of the stick re: everything he's saying, from health to wages
[01:18:24] <Sulla> At least in my dealing with tax cases, Ive never seen an employer get away with not paying the state minimum wage when an employee earns no tips. But Alaska may be different
[01:19:36] <requerdanos> That's good to hear that some employers are held to that standard.
[01:22:41] <Sulla> Tax firms dont want to pass on the liability by signing off on a bad a form. You tell the customer to correct or go down the road, if they go down the road you can report them. Often if they are messing with outgoing expenses they will be messing with revenues
[01:22:54] <Sulla> IRS finds mispalced revenues causing tax differences, you get like 20% of what they find for reporting it
[01:23:21] <Runaway1956> I am not Okay with tips: the whole thing is just WRONG.
[01:23:34] <bacteria> ever tipped?
[01:23:37] <Runaway1956> Wait staff and all other exempt people should be paid the prevailing wage
[01:23:43] <Runaway1956> Yeah, I tip -
[01:23:47] <bacteria> &_&
[01:23:49] <Runaway1956> it's still wrong
[01:23:52] <bacteria> lo
[01:23:54] <bacteria> l
[01:24:01] <Sulla> When I was working at a rental lot people tried to tip me, i hated it and refused
[01:24:07] <Sulla> I was already getting like 15 an hour
[01:24:15] <Sulla> they were already paying for the service
[01:24:15] <Runaway1956> When, where, and how did tipping originate?
[01:24:27] <Sulla> restaurant scams
[01:24:36] <Sulla> You have the customer pay payroll
[01:24:42] <Sulla> so you to pay out less cash
[01:24:42] <Runaway1956> close, but not precise enough
[01:25:04] <Sulla> Much more profitable before computers and better methods of recording
[01:25:37] <Sulla> side beneft for restaurants is attrition for employees who aren't able to perform
[01:25:53] <Runaway1956> not sure if this is the "best" article, but it starts off correctly
[01:26:05] <Runaway1956> https://www.cbsnews.com
[01:26:06] <systemd> ^ 03The disturbing history of tipping in the U.S.: "It's literally a slave wage"
[01:26:07] <bacteria> i don't think tipping is bad per se, one should have the freedom to offer money to anyone else
[01:26:40] <Runaway1956> Tipping was the art of offering little rewards to serfs and slaves - not to free men and women
[01:27:05] <bacteria> bribery is undesireable, but there should be arguments for why tipping is not ok in some circumstance
[01:27:44] <bacteria> i don't feel wrong tipping drug dealers, like the local booze jokey
[01:27:53] <bacteria> it feels right
[01:28:23] <bacteria> they do get a wage,btw
[01:29:07] <Sulla> I'm fine with it, I just hated being tipped
[01:29:12] <Runaway1956> That "minimum" was mentioned above - $2.13/hr - that isn't a "wage".
[01:30:10] <requerdanos> Then you get things like these tip calculations https://9gag.com
[01:30:11] <systemd> ^ 03Attention Required! | Cloudflare
[01:30:16] <Sulla> Refused a five dollar tip from a lady when I drove her to the airport when working car rentals, so she put 100 in the cup holder when I was pulling her bags out
[01:30:36] <Sulla> had to go and find her address in the system to mail her a check
[01:30:41] <bacteria> that's how you maximize it, you rascal :D
[01:31:37] <Sulla> If it were my boss giving me a bonus id be fine, but i'm already being paid so i dont want additional
[01:31:52] <Sulla> if other people want to accept tips for it i have no ill will, more power to em
[01:31:56] <Sulla> i just dont want it
[01:32:03] <bacteria> also, she probably wanted to have a visit from you, after you looked up her address
[01:32:17] <Sulla> good luck i'm never going east of the rockies
[01:32:18] <SoyCow1016> I think it's disrespectful to mail it back. Refusing it the first time is fine but if she insists and puts the money in your cup holder you shouldn't refuse per se. Sure, make sure she didn't forget it there by accident, I agree, but to deny her the pleasure of such a thing
[01:32:23] <bacteria> :D
[01:32:53] <mrpg> Sometimes people need to express their gratitude, if not for you for themselves
[01:32:54] <Runaway1956> A tip is something you offer to an inferior for having performed to your expectations
[01:33:03] <Runaway1956> a tip is not something one equal offers another
[01:33:24] <bacteria> i disagree, Runaway1956, a tip is situational
[01:33:30] <mrpg> It could be seen as a help you give to someone who is worse than you...
[01:33:40] <mrpg> worse off
[01:33:40] <SoyCow1016> Thhat's just silly. Is tipping the person that cut your hair offering an inferior?
[01:33:47] <Runaway1956> I refer you to the link giving the origins of tipping -
[01:34:08] <Runaway1956> https://www.cbsnews.com
[01:34:08] <systemd> ^ 03The disturbing history of tipping in the U.S.: "It's literally a slave wage"
[01:34:18] <SoyCow1016> Tipping could be a way of incentivising you to prioritize that person over someone else the next time that one person need something
[01:34:38] <bacteria> i tipped bouncers in hope they would come through in sertain ways, and they have. money is speech sometimes.
[01:34:40] <Sulla> Oh found an exception. I also got tipped a lot in spare beer that people left behind in their car. that was great
[01:34:41] <SoyCow1016> incentivizing *
[01:34:44] <mrpg> For example, inmigrants tip inmigrants cause they know how hard life can be.
[01:34:50] <raxas> any kind of tipping is a shining indicator of jobs being underwaged. it is acknowledgement of poverty and class stratification, actually
[01:34:56] <SoyCow1016> For instance if you cut hair and you are constantly booked the person that tips you the most will get priority
[01:35:33] <Runaway1956> Exactly, raxas - the proprietor is exploiting the social and legal situation
[01:35:38] <SoyCow1016> Or if you fix computers and someone has a business and they tip you good because they want you to prioritize them over someone else the next time thier computer breaks because they know that they will be losing money when their computer is down
[01:35:40] <Sulla> Raxas: this feels most like my opinion. I dont want to give off the impression that I'm being underpaid when I wasn't based on my view of the job
[01:36:40] <Sulla> maybe i wouldn't care as much if i didnt like my job
[01:37:14] <Runaway1956> It's subservience, Sulla - accepting their gifts obligates you to them
[01:37:26] <Runaway1956> Money flows downhill, not uphill
[01:38:22] <bacteria> ok. one time i was serving zin at the park in san jose to a crowd of yuppy drunks, i was volunteer, i was in no way beneath them, i was having the time of my life (we carried a box of wine home and gave out bottles to strangers), but they tipped, and i was feeling right keeping it
[01:38:43] <SoyCow1016> If money flowed downhill then why do the rich keep getting richer?
[01:38:49] <Sulla> Had some ass reserve a '08 Dodge Caliber for dirt cheap (older car) because it was dirt cheap. Then show up on the lot and throw a fuss because he wanted to drive in my (an employee)'s '12 camry. Tried to bribe me so I asked the manager if we could fire him as a customer
[01:39:09] <Sulla> was pretty great offering him a ride to hertz/avis so he could reserve a last minute 250/day camry
[01:39:21] <Sulla> instead of a 20/day car
[01:39:38] <Sulla> Rich guys pinchin pennies were the worst
[01:40:35] <Runaway1956> wrong question SoyCow1016 - but the answer is, Royalty tips the serfs and slaves, serfs never tip Royalty
[01:41:00] <Runaway1956> it's all about what class you were born into
[01:41:38] <Sulla> https://ih0.redbubble.net
[01:41:43] <Sulla> Noblemen swerve!
[01:42:17] <raxas> ...or what class you were throats cutted into
[01:42:36] <SoyCow1016> Rimawau1956 I think that's a narrow perspective
[01:42:59] <SoyCow1016> If someone tips the person that cuts their hair it doesn't mean they make more or less
[01:43:19] <Runaway1956> Do you realize that virtually all Americans were offended at the concept of tipping when it was introduced here?
[01:43:31] <Sulla> Japanese view on things
[01:43:42] <Runaway1956> Narrow perspectives were overcome by decades of propaganda
[01:45:07] <Runaway1956> As for day-to-day tipping among the working class - it gives you, the tipper, momentary power over some hapless fool who was assigned the job of tending to your needs
[01:45:29] <Runaway1956> You can make or break another working person's day with your decision to tip, to tip big, or to not tip
[01:45:53] <Runaway1956> I don't want that power to ruin another person's day - or to make his day
[01:45:56] <SoyCow1016> So your choices are to either not do business with them or .... Tip big?
[01:46:00] <Sulla> Not sure if you would call it a tip or not but once had to negotiate the price up for a methanic
[01:46:17] <Sulla> He did a full engine overhaul for my vanagon, quoted me parts and labor upfront as 5k
[01:46:35] <Sulla> came in at 2300 because he "can't charge labor on this job, its just too expensive"
[01:46:48] <Sulla> his prices wre incredibly fair so negotiated him up
[01:47:20] <Runaway1956> I've sorta been in almost that situation Sulla
[01:47:44] <Runaway1956> Guy is apologetic about the cost, I tell him the cost is just fine, and add a bit to it
[01:47:55] <Sulla> Quote from Gran Torino "I made a $500 profit selling a boat and a motor, practicly stealing"
[01:48:12] <Runaway1956> He's accustomed to dealing with people who don't want to pay
[01:48:19] <Sulla> Money handling is probably the biggest cultural difference i saw between Alaska and Oregon
[01:48:33] <Runaway1956> ??
[01:48:34] <Sulla> In Alaska the custom was to hand someone a wad of cash, and they would just pocket it without looking
[01:48:42] <Sulla> Oregon you count the money to make sure its all there
[01:48:54] <Runaway1956> That's most of America
[01:51:10] <Sulla> Alaska way is nice but then you get super embarassed when you later find more money in your wallet than you thought you should have and need to track down their number and ask
[01:59:00] <bacteria> like a floor manager and 2 sales and 2 cheeers got all store closed up after hours and fuzz led them out
[01:59:03] <bacteria> mt
[01:59:09] <bacteria> retelling the tale....
[01:59:42] <Sulla> Did they fix the loophole that allowed it?
[01:59:53] <Sulla> hard to fix issues where collusion can make it happen
[02:00:11] <bacteria> oh yeah i don't think one can fix that
[02:01:15] <bacteria> that's why there are like 3 ppl on live surveilance at large best-buy sized store, they built the case over many days, all on surveilance camera, multiple laptops
[02:01:36] <bacteria> uninterrupted footage from pickup to parking lot
[02:03:54] <Sulla> time for steak and broccoli
[02:04:13] <bacteria> Sulla++
[02:04:13] <Bender> karma - sulla: 22
[02:04:46] <raxas> street clans know how to fix such mistakes. my first rule would be: manager pays for all theft and shortage under him. let's not talk about the second rule, though.
[02:06:38] <raxas> and yes, technically, it's feudalism. works well in cyber era too
[02:10:49] <kyonko`> I remember irc feudalism
[02:12:01] <kyonko`> I don't doubt alaskan money handling one bit! they have plenty of bush food and water
[02:13:38] <Sulla> Favorite car dealership scam. On cars that dealerships got in trade that were worth 1500 or less they would not complete dealer paperwork, shift the name to whatever manager got it, then say they gave a discoutn on the sales price. The manager woudl then run it thorugh the auction and get a bonus for the difference
[02:18:07] <kyonko`> ...
[02:19:05] <kyonko`> how exactly did the laptop theft ring work?
[02:19:38] <bacteria> it had just about enough people to work arounf fry's protocol
[02:19:42] <Sulla> do you wanna know for a friend?
[02:19:51] <bacteria> manager has to sign of onlaptop sale
[02:20:27] <kyonko`> I just find it odd shit like this still goes on
[02:20:42] <kyonko`> because "reasons"
[02:20:55] <bacteria> i think they just stuck a wrong barcode to box by the time it was at register
[02:21:05] <bacteria> or at some point in the chain
[02:21:06] <kyonko`> when I worked back in the 2000's we had full internet access, why, I dont fucking know why!
[02:21:52] <kyonko`> one place was so bad, they were downloading mp3's and movies
[02:22:32] -!- Dontwannanamemyboaty [Dontwannanamemyboaty!~aeffcea0@824.sub-333-414-910.myvzw.com] has joined #soylent
[02:22:33] <kyonko`> this was from places ranging from fly by nite ops to global multinationals
[02:23:14] <kyonko`> we used VNC at all the work places too, but the actually surveillance was shipped by fedex
[02:23:42] <kyonko`> fedex was constantly picking up the VHS tapes to be sent for "analysis"
[02:24:06] <Runaway1956> Hello Aristarchusdontwannaname
[02:25:22] <kyonko`> a lot of people did not know what VNC was, probably only I did, but I never talked abot it ever
[02:25:27] <Dontwannanamemyboaty> Good eve
[02:25:31] <bacteria> casheers in fry's are randomized, i forget the details, they might have had a casheer and a guy who directs a customer to a specific register
[02:25:55] <kyonko`> bacteria: are they also winterized, for winter?
[02:26:37] <bacteria> i live in ^8california, i know not of this 11winter
[02:27:12] <bacteria> summer is coming
[02:27:15] <kyonko`> oh fooey, california does too have winter!
[02:27:32] <kyonko`> maybe you can't afford to get to "winter, ca"
[02:27:39] <Runaway1956> Parts of California knows what winter is
[02:27:50] <bacteria> i grew up just north of moscow, ergo california does not have a winter
[02:28:00] <kyonko`> moscow is in idaho
[02:28:04] <bacteria> true, Runaway1956
[02:28:29] <Runaway1956> Remember the Donner party of cannibals? That shit happened in California.
[02:28:41] <kyonko`> yeah and the donner party is like a daily thing in mexico since 2008
[02:28:46] <Runaway1956> It's wicked cold up in the hills.
[02:28:50] <bacteria> california is just huge, that why a lot of shit happens here
[02:29:06] <kyonko`> california is gay texas
[02:29:22] <Runaway1956> That's why California hates Texas - everything is bigger in Tejas!
[02:29:32] <bacteria> texas is not all bad, it produced bill hicks
[02:29:50] <Sulla> Alaska here, Texas is discount Alaska
[02:29:55] <Sulla> except with less oil
[02:30:00] <Runaway1956> lol
[02:30:26] <Runaway1956> you guys ain't got as many steers, or queers!
[02:31:56] <Dontwannanamemyboaty> I reside in Georgia, it's nice
[02:32:08] <Runaway1956> *sigh*
[02:32:23] <Runaway1956> Only a few Yankees and Europeans "reside" in Georgia.
[02:33:17] <Sulla> Ew, georgia is east of the rockies
[02:34:26] * bacteria love, love 11pacific ocean
[02:34:31] <Dontwannanamemyboaty> Say what you will, I have my life.
[02:34:42] <Runaway1956> What you talkin' 'bout, Willis - they got rocks in Georgia!
[02:34:43] <bacteria> that's what you think, Dontwannanamemyboaty
[02:35:37] <Sulla> lol can you define "living" as existing east of the rockies?
[02:35:41] <Dontwannanamemyboaty> Yes it is what I think.
[02:36:28] <Runaway1956> Isn't Hawaii "east of the Rockies"?
[02:36:51] <bacteria> hawaii is a planet
[02:36:53] <Sulla> Not when you called into coast to coast
[02:37:15] <Runaway1956> You can sail a boat out of any west coast harbor, and go south and east and east and east and east some more, then a little north, and land in Honolulu
[02:37:31] <Dontwannanamemyboaty> Anyways if ya'll are living out there and don't have a "Land Patent". Take a second and look it up.
[02:39:02] <bacteria> may be it's just hotel gossip, but i've been told that hawaii is the land where the weather is so good, bums fall asleep on the beach and drown in the tide
[02:39:48] <bacteria> i wish i could be in honolulu right now.....
[02:39:54] <Dontwannanamemyboaty> I can believe it.
[02:40:11] <AzumaHazuki> doesn't seem sustainable though
[02:40:16] * Runaway1956 has no real love of tropical islands
[02:40:29] <AzumaHazuki> it's expensive as hell and not enough agriculture to feed the population on the islands themselves
[02:41:41] <Runaway1956> Picture this: You love fast cars, and you have yours set up so that it should hit 150 mph - but there's not enough paved road on your island to ever test it
[02:42:13] <Runaway1956> You get it up to 90, and you have to downshift for the upcoming curve . . .
[02:44:07] <Dontwannanamemyboaty> I would like to know if something is possible. Any takers?
[02:45:29] <Runaway1956> I've been assured that anything is possible.
[02:45:46] <Runaway1956> Not sure if that means "everything is possible".
[02:49:38] * bacteria clap flagella
[02:49:56] <Runaway1956> Did everyone take the poll? https://www.washingtontimes.com
[02:49:58] <systemd> ^ 03Poll: Are you ready to ditch the mask? - Washington Times
[02:52:08] <Runaway1956> Last night I read the bill creating a January 6th commission
[02:52:08] <Runaway1956> It isn’t designed to produce a serious inquiry
[02:52:08] <Runaway1956> It’s designed to be used as partisan political weapon
[02:52:09] <Runaway1956> I am a no pic.twitter.com/5T6l0Dkb9z
[02:52:11] <Runaway1956> — Marco Rubio (@marcorubio) May 21, 2021
[02:53:15] <Runaway1956> https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com
[02:53:16] <systemd> ^ 03Myanmar poll body to dissolve Suu Kyi’s party - Times of India
[02:53:29] * Runaway1956 remembers when Suu Kyi was the media's darling
[02:53:54] <Runaway1956> The modern day Mahatma Ghandi, with a uterus
[02:54:56] <Dontwannanamemyboaty> I was reading the history of the zip file and the problems that they solved. One problem was trying to figure out a way to compress a file without having another file as reference. I believe this is a hidden gemstone. I propose combining the fragmented zip file with bittorrent network make for a new network topology.
[02:56:10] <Dontwannanamemyboaty> I don't know if it's already been done.
[02:59:34] <Runaway1956> What problem are you solving with this?
[03:01:09] <Dontwannanamemyboaty> Data growth
[03:02:41] <Runaway1956> =submit https://opensource.com
[03:02:45] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Play the Busy Beaver Game Through a Simulator" (53p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[03:08:01] <Runaway1956> =submit https://www.engadget.com
[03:08:04] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03The US Federal Reserve Begins Looking Into its Own Digital Currency" (5p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[03:08:52] <raxas> =submit https://www.rt.com
[03:08:55] <systemd> ✓* Sub-ccess! "08Moscow Offers Elon Musk Talks on ‘State Support’ as Tesla Boss Mulls Opening Production in Russi" (9p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[03:12:43] <Runaway1956> =submit https://www.engadget.com
[03:12:45] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03DARPA Helped Make a Sarcasm Detector, Because of Course It Did" (14p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[03:13:43] <Runaway1956> That story should chafe fakefuck's hide raxas - he hates Elon
[03:13:51] <Dontwannanamemyboaty> Nice
[03:14:19] <raxas> my bet is on Putin-Musk meeting will happen sooner than Putin-Biden one
[03:15:31] -!- Sulla has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
[03:18:08] <kyonko`> Musk is a US citizen
[03:18:17] <kyonko`> His whole operation is in Texas
[03:19:50] <Runaway1956> I thought Musk was an African-American?
[03:20:18] <raxas> but russia has water and, most importantly, electricity...
[03:20:33] <Runaway1956> =submit https://www.zerohedge.com
[03:20:36] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03ZeroHedge" (88p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[03:22:24] <kyonko`> what is water?
[03:22:36] <kyonko`> is water, holy?
[03:23:23] <raxas> that's what the beer is brewed from
[03:24:41] <Dontwannanamemyboaty> Once Musk perfects his trade, he will sell his services. That's it! I'm not worried about "space superiority" at this point. Why. Cause DARPA already achieved 1MeV particle accelerators, on a chip. Hydrogen-Boron fusion requires 100 KeV. We're gonna have SSTO spacesuits baby!
[03:27:28] <kyonko`> I never understood the electron-volt unit
[03:27:47] <kyonko`> do positrons also have voltage?
[03:28:02] <kyonko`> if so, why isn't there anything in KpV
[03:28:03] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Scientists Bring the Sense of Touch to a Robotic Arm - https://sylnt.us - touching-development
[03:29:03] <raxas> positrons are pretty funny, for by clasic theory they are just electrons traveling backwards in time
[03:29:34] <raxas> one of the many reasons I do not believe in QM
[03:30:07] <kyonko`> oh going backwards in time?
[03:30:16] <kyonko`> so they are heading toward the big bang
[03:30:48] <raxas> https://en.wikipedia.org
[03:30:49] <systemd> ^ 03Positron - Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org )
[03:31:01] <kyonko`> I doubt any of this shit can be "controlled" anyway
[03:31:12] <kyonko`> you already know or remember what happened in the past
[03:31:27] <kyonko`> and even if you could control it, it would still be going toward the origin of time
[03:32:08] <kyonko`> they have found a bunch of berentein bears hadrons since 2009
[03:35:27] <Dontwannanamemyboaty> raxas, if you been around long enough, and pay close attention. You can recognise that history changes all the time.
[03:36:33] <raxas> yes. most of history I lived in is now changed, often completely inverted
[03:36:49] <kyonko`> yeah but I don't remember such things before the LHC
[03:38:17] <raxas> I am pretty sure that happened many times before. we are not the first sentient race on this planet
[03:38:33] <kyonko`> earth can't be that old
[03:39:45] <Dontwannanamemyboaty> Unless measurement devices were miss configured...
[03:39:56] <kyonko`> WWW was invented at CERN, should be possible to run the web backwards heading to the big bang and non-existance
[03:40:00] <Dontwannanamemyboaty> I kid
[03:40:20] <kyonko`> fool.com was among the first sites
[03:40:52] <raxas> cern killed gopher by purpose. www _is_ a backward technology since
[03:41:43] <kyonko`> lol
[03:43:13] <Runaway1956> https://www.waynedupree.com
[03:43:14] <systemd> ^ 03[VIDEO] Internet Melts Down Over Kamala’s Ghastly Foreign Policy Blunder, Caught on Tape - WayneDupree.com
[03:43:42] <Runaway1956> Harris shakes hands with Moon - then wipes her hand on her blouse to get rid of the cooties
[03:43:49] <Runaway1956> Hilarious
[03:45:34] <raxas> that lotus goddes was deployed to destroy murica and you cannot prevent it
[03:45:56] <Runaway1956> Democrats are all about destroying America
[03:47:10] <raxas> https://en.wikipedia.org
[03:47:11] <systemd> ^ 03Kamalatmika - Wikipedia
[03:47:19] -!- Dontwannanamemyboaty has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
[03:48:08] <raxas> it is a fierce form, the destroyer goddess
[03:52:33] <Runaway1956> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com
[03:52:34] <systemd> ^ 03Prison Workers Tasked with Guarding Jeffrey Epstein Admitted They Falsified Records the Night He Died - Will Avoid Jail Time in Deal with DOJ
[03:52:49] <Runaway1956> MSM won't carry that story
[03:53:03] <kyonko`> Epstein and bill gates ran a baby breeding ranch in NM
[03:53:22] <kyonko`> lots of the 13 and 14 year old girls don't remember even being pregnant
[03:53:37] <kyonko`> (whats the rush, only they know what the hurry is)
[03:53:56] <kyonko`> baby breeding in humans begins at age 13 or 14 and continues clandestinely untill age 21
[03:54:19] <Runaway1956> ????????
[03:54:25] <kyonko`> pregnancies over age 21 require medical assistance
[03:54:34] <Runaway1956> Nonsense
[03:54:46] <kyonko`> ok bro, good luck dying in child birth
[03:55:03] <Runaway1956> The medical profession has indoctrinated women into believing that they need doctors to deliver babies
[03:55:07] <kyonko`> all sorts of crazy shit happens when "old enough" women get pregnant, its absolutely impossible in your 30's
[03:55:27] <kyonko`> Ok jungle man
[03:55:33] <kyonko`> head hunter
[03:55:43] <Runaway1956> more nonsense - lots of women have babies after age 30
[03:55:48] <Runaway1956> my wife for instance
[03:55:55] <kyonko`> yeah under modern medicine
[03:56:05] <Runaway1956> she dropped two babies without assistance
[03:56:13] <kyonko`> oh she is wonder woman
[03:56:17] <Runaway1956> the third was breach and required caeserain
[03:56:24] <kyonko`> ok that need help
[03:56:56] <raxas> reminder: modern medicine actually led us to global pandemic and biofascism regime
[03:57:13] <Runaway1956> Well, yeah, but that has nothing to do with childbirth
[03:57:22] <kyonko`> yeah, I totally am so ready to die without modern medicine
[03:57:40] <kyonko`> I have innoculation records from being a baby
[03:57:44] <kyonko`> doesn't mean I'm superman
[03:57:58] <kyonko`> I got innoculated as a baby in the mid 1980's
[03:58:08] <kyonko`> I couldn't enter public school in the 1990's without those records
[03:58:09] <Runaway1956> Whatever - just remember that Supermom can slap Superman around anytime
[03:58:22] <kyonko`> we had mass vaccination events in school in the 1990's
[03:58:53] <Runaway1956> I couldn't start school in 1961 without my vaccinations either -
[03:58:57] <kyonko`> if for some reason, you didn't want to innoculate your baby and send them to school, you had to pay big money for private schooling
[03:59:33] <kyonko`> innoculation is just bizarre shit humans do to each other
[03:59:34] <raxas> that's class stratification again
[04:00:05] <kyonko`> raxas: a few just kept their kids homeschooled, untill it became "illegal"
[04:00:31] <kyonko`> rain water collection also "illegal", its legal to pump rain water at the bed rock water table tho
[04:00:34] <Runaway1956> home schooling is legal - some of my grandkids are home schooled
[04:00:48] <kyonko`> you are ancient
[04:01:41] <kyonko`> so I survived the gauntlet of childhood innoculation, I'm not the only one, but its just unsustainable at this point
[04:02:06] <kyonko`> once I became an adult, I could turn down any innoculation
[04:02:58] <kyonko`> I guess the obvious bizarre human behavior if innoculation (and slavery!) is so big now, we have no choice that he pentagon admits UFO's exist
[04:03:37] <kyonko`> innoculation is wrong because it kills someone who would otherwise survive and thrive if the innoculation did not occur
[04:04:13] <Runaway1956> Yeah, I know the numbers, and the anti-anti-vaxxers have numbers on their side
[04:04:33] <raxas> this way it works directly against proper evolution
[04:04:35] <Runaway1956> smallpox will kill millions, the vax will kill a couple thousand
[04:05:31] <Runaway1956> more accurately, the vax will kill a couple hundred, and have side effects for a couple thousand
[04:13:16] <raxas> https://www.youtube.com
[04:13:17] <systemd> ^ 03AURORA - RUNAWAY - The 2015 Nobel Peace Prize Concert
[04:13:30] <kyonko`> doctors know the truth
[04:13:42] <raxas> the girl's a bit crazy, original clip https://www.youtube.com nightcore version https://www.youtube.com
[04:13:43] <systemd> ^ 03AURORA - Runaway
[04:13:45] <systemd> ^ 03「Nightcore」→ Runaway \\ AURORA
[04:13:50] <kyonko`> innoculate now, and get it over with, or never innoculate, and deal with it for decades
[04:14:26] <kyonko`> but its illegal for the poor to defend themselves against criminals
[04:15:23] <kyonko`> raxas: humans now control their own evolution and that of other species, its time to transition to beyond-human
[04:15:41] <kyonko`> sucks ass that a man like bill gates is involved in that
[04:15:44] <raxas> i think there is something else behind all the affair. things like FEV or even extremozoan
[04:17:31] <kyonko`> I'd love to listen to the radio on the internet, but no one runs streaming servers any more
[04:17:44] <raxas> I do not like bio entities much, I prefer machines. and, I am sure a transfer of consciousnes to machines will actually improve the noosphere
[04:17:46] <kyonko`> you have to use google chrome or firefox to load their crapware player
[04:18:35] <raxas> bio entities are vulnerable to religious psy-attack. machines, not so much
[04:19:23] <Runaway1956> OK - pretty girl, pretty voice, nice outfit - need the lyrics to understand the song I guess
[04:19:35] <kyonko`> psy-attack , lol
[04:19:46] <kyonko`> what is this final finatasy VIII
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[04:20:08] <Runaway1956> psy-ops is a thing
[04:20:10] <Sulla> safer for musk to operate out of russia than it is china
[04:20:54] <Runaway1956> https://www.youtube.com
[04:20:56] <systemd> ^ 03AURORA - Runaway (Lyrics)
[04:21:24] <kyonko`> yeah I know what psy-ops is
[04:21:40] <kyonko`> its a plane flying over head dropping tiny little tickets with a naked woman printed on them
[04:22:47] <Runaway1956> My answer to Aurora - you can never go home again.
[04:23:50] <raxas> she's good, wrote the stuff at age 11, how many people could pull that https://en.wikipedia.org(Aurora_song)
[04:23:51] <systemd> ^ 03Runaway (Aurora song) - Wikipedia
[04:24:16] <Runaway1956> So she's the prodigal daughter
[04:24:28] <Runaway1956> Oh, wait, I think I meant prodigy?
[04:25:18] <Runaway1956> But, yeah, I'd like to go home . . . except there's no one but the dead and the dying back in my little town
[04:26:05] <Runaway1956> https://www.youtube.com
[04:26:07] <systemd> ^ 03Simon & Garfunkel - My Little Town (Audio)
[04:26:39] <Runaway1956> I can never look at that dude without wondering how he got that freaky hair
[04:28:33] <kyonko`> chemicals
[04:28:41] <kyonko`> he went to a black barber
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[04:28:53] <Runaway1956> injected into his skull, and allowed to soak outward into his hair?
[04:28:57] <kyonko`> just think of all the crazy chemicals that kept men alive on the moon
[04:29:06] <kyonko`> more like drilled into his skull
[04:29:37] <Runaway1956> it would be more sexy if he'd found a dead badger, and installed linux onto it, then draped it over his head
[04:29:45] <Runaway1956> but they didn't have Linux back then
[04:30:29] <kyonko`> how would you install linux on a DEAD badger? even if linux could be installed on living DNA?
[04:30:54] <Runaway1956> wait one . . .
[04:31:06] <kyonko`> 640K ought to be enough for anybody
[04:31:29] <kyonko`> so pretty much those 640K IBM PC's were useless without a line printer
[04:31:58] <Runaway1956> It's rather intense - follow directions exactly, don't take chances
[04:32:02] <kyonko`> BILL GATES MADE HIS BONES IN 8088 MACHINE LANGUAGE
[04:32:11] <Runaway1956> https://www.abyssapexzine.com
[04:32:12] <systemd> ^ 03Installing Linux on a Dead Badger
[04:32:21] <kyonko`> a taxidermied badger
[04:32:40] <Runaway1956> no no no no!! Taxidermist will ruin the thing!
[04:32:42] <kyonko`> taxidermy in its self is quite complicated (and a biohazard)
[04:32:58] <kyonko`> I use balled up kleenex for my taxidermy
[04:33:40] <Runaway1956> There's no soul left after the taxidermist is finished
[04:34:29] <raxas> in Age of Wetware implemented of fungi that's not a joke anymore, sigh...
[04:36:56] <kyonko`> wet ware is heavy
[04:37:24] <Runaway1956> yeah, but nobody minds wet T-shirts
[04:37:57] <kyonko`> I've never seen a wet t-shirt in iraq
[04:40:00] <raxas> it solves some non-poly problems. https://en.wikipedia.org though I hate leeches, since ftp times...
[04:40:01] <systemd> ^ 03Wetware computer - Wikipedia
[04:40:02] <Sulla> The region betwen the Tigrus and Euphrates was lush at some point. There was at least a west loincloth war sometime in its history
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[04:48:51] <kyonko`> lol
[05:00:32] <Runaway1956> huh - why kyonko?
[05:11:03] <kyonko`> going to war over a loincloth?
[05:11:35] <Runaway1956> Nahhh, thought maybe your nick was hindi for 'why'
[05:13:12] <Runaway1956> Mostly, people don't need real reasons to fight each other, so loincloth is as good as any other excuse for a war
[05:17:24] <kyonko`> codpiece
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[07:06:22] RunawayXXXX is now known as SoyGuest81389
[07:07:21] SoyGuest81389 is now known as RunawayXXXX
[07:14:40] <RunawayXXXX> =submit not your sister's period https://www.thedenverchannel.com
[07:14:43] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03When to See the ‘Super Flower Blood Moon’ and a Total Lunar Eclipse" (9p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[07:30:59] <Runaway1956> #tell FatPhil [05/22/21 02:14:40] <RunawayXXXX> =submit not your sister's period https://www.thedenverchannel.com
[07:40:17] <chromas> In Washington, tips are always added to base pay
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[07:56:06] <c0lo> =submit https://www.motherjones.com
[07:56:08] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Canada Declares Plastics Toxic, Paving the Way for Restrictions" (16p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[07:56:46] <c0lo> =submit https://apnews.com
[07:56:48] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03AP Exclusive: Full-blown Boycott Pushed for Beijing Olympics" (1p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[07:59:08] <c0lo> =submit https://www.theguardian.com
[07:59:10] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Big Pharma Executives Mocked ‘Pillbillies’ in Emails, West Virginia Opioid Trial Hears" (25p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[08:00:30] <c0lo> =submit https://www.ftm.nl
[08:00:34] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Pfizer Avoids Taxes Via the Netherlands and Makes a Profit Worth Billions" (56p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[08:01:55] <chromas> https://www.youtube.com
[08:01:57] <systemd> ^ 03Locomotion (1989) - Pacific Data Images
[08:04:36] <c0lo> =submit https://www.wired.com
[08:04:39] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Tech Companies Don't Need to be Creepy to Make Money" (13p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[08:05:45] <c0lo> =submit https://www.euractiv.com
[08:05:48] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Facebook Faces Prospect of 'Devastating' Data Transfer Ban After Irish Ruling" (18p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[08:06:30] <c0lo> =submit https://www.theguardian.com
[08:06:32] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Amazon’s Ring is the Largest Civilian Surveillance Network the US Has Ever Seen" (11p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[08:07:14] <c0lo> =submit https://www.theonion.com
[08:07:16] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03‘the Onion’ Calls on Israel to Bomb Our Offices in Case Any Hamas Agents Hiding Out There" (1p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[08:10:21] <c0lo> =submit https://ilsr.org
[08:10:24] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Washington State Removes All Barriers to Municipal Broadband" (15p) -> https://soylentnews.org
[08:15:09] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Opera Launches its Opera GX "Gaming Browser" for Smartphones - https://sylnt.us
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[10:18:20] <RunawayXXXX> I am illegitimate? Oh, dear.
[10:19:19] <RunawayXXXX> =tell PhatFil, indeed.
[10:20:16] <RunawayXXXX> Registered IRC handle. Deal with it. No possibility of confusion, unless you are not too bright.
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[10:33:34] <FatPhil> Grow up.
[10:51:36] <kyonko`> They can't get into haven if they grow up
[10:52:00] <kyonko`> FatPhil: isn't smtp the notorious vector for spam?
[10:53:06] <FatPhil> it's a notorious vector for email spam, yes, as it's the most common mail transport protocol.
[10:53:12] <FatPhil> =yt rp8hvyjZWHs
[10:53:13] <systemd> https://youtube.com - Trust me, i'm an engineer ! (03:34; 12,361,591 views; 👍315,556 👎6,846)
[10:54:36] <kyonko`> whats the other one?
[10:54:54] <kyonko`> I know DNS has a few competitors around
[10:55:59] <kyonko`> how spam still happens in virgin unknown super secret e-mail address still is unknown
[10:57:17] <kyonko`> when I give soylentnews my e-mail for registration, will the mail come from soylentnews proper, or some kind of e-mail contractor?
[10:58:45] <kyonko`> years ago, well into the 2010's I tried to sign up for some douchey web forums that were crawled by google and therefor discovered by me, they didn't take registrations from non-work and isp addresses
[10:58:47] <kyonko`> so fuck
[10:59:06] <kyonko`> because forum spam, right?
[10:59:32] <kyonko`> the end result: they aren't getting my isp provided e-mail addresses
[11:01:44] <Runaway1956> Mail will be postmarked "Federal Bureau of Investigation, Washington, D.C."
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[11:02:57] <Runaway1956> Seriously though - I've had zero emails from SN or anyone who purports to represent SN since I joined. There may have been a confirmation email, but I can't remember for sure.
[11:03:14] <Runaway1956> Use a fake email, it don't matter.
[11:03:39] <Runaway1956>
[11:03:39] <Runaway1956> Privacy Policy: We don't track anyone except on this site, so DNT requests aren't relevant and are ignored. We don't collect any personally identifiable information from you except your email address, which: you can change at any time, never has to be real in the first place, is only used to contact you if necessary or requested, and we share with nobody.
[11:06:44] <Runaway1956> Whatever you do, don't make your email visible on the site - all sorts of spammers can collect it if you make it visible on your settings page
[11:16:36] <FatPhil> kyonko`: no third party mail services are used
[11:17:39] <FatPhil> I've not noticed anything scrape/use the email address that I make visible - obfuscated - on the site.
[11:21:11] <FatPhil> or, if anything is using it, it never reaches my inbox because it's so easily detectable as spam that I never see it
[11:21:53] <FatPhil> if you do use a real address that's yours, I do recommend "local addressing", so that you can see it's been compromised when it has, and you can change it.
[11:22:48] <kyonko`> FatPhil: sounds a lot like the mexican telephone system, and obviously extended into the coca producing regions of south america or where the slave trade is profitable
[11:23:26] <kyonko`> but my best e-mail service is from my ISP
[11:25:35] <kyonko`> mexicans even obfuscate their street addresses
[11:25:36] <kyonko`> lol
[11:25:36] <inz> my best e-mail service is from mailinator, but unfortunately not everyone accepts it
[11:25:44] <kyonko`> fuck
[11:25:57] <kyonko`> that is so douchey, who does accept mailinator? is this some smtp bullshit?
[11:26:52] * Runaway1956 wouldn't use ISP mail address for anything at all
[11:26:56] <kyonko`> why do yahoo, gmail and outlook have an open public facing smtp server?
[11:27:13] <kyonko`> yeah Runaway1956 I get that "e-mail is a joke"
[11:27:30] <kyonko`> why would I need e-mail anyway, I can just order by phone from my redneck warehouse
[11:27:34] <Runaway1956> people can look up ISP records and get your name, age, gender, street address, maybe your place of employment, and any other information the ISP insisted on having
[11:27:51] <kyonko`> yeah, I'm sure they know who I am
[11:27:57] <kyonko`> I am an american dissident
[11:28:06] <kyonko`> you know, likes those in russia and china
[11:28:14] <Runaway1956> They have smtp servers so that you can download and save your email to your own local hardware
[11:28:42] <kyonko`> that would be like allowing every dial up user connect to an irc server to get channel messages
[11:28:42] <inz> I don't think that is how SMTP works
[11:28:55] <kyonko`> inz: nobody knows how SMTP works
[11:29:00] <inz> true.
[11:29:22] <Runaway1956> I did it for years - run an email client on your home machine, connect with smtp, and just download it all - you can leave a copy on the server, or not, as you choose
[11:29:37] <kyonko`> as things got faster, it would be like every irc user had an p2p meshed connection to the server
[11:29:51] <kyonko`> yeah, smtp is the firehose
[11:29:55] <kyonko`> BULK
[11:30:26] <kyonko`> tools like boeing's narus insight keep an eye out for irc and smtp
[11:31:26] <inz> EHLO foobar\r\nMAIL FROM:billg@microsoft.com\r\nRCPT TO:you@yourserver.com\r\nDATA\r\nFrom: billg@microsoft.com\r\nSubject: I'll give you a million bucks if you give me 10k\r\n\r\nplz\r\n.\r\n
[11:31:50] <kyonko`> IIRC, in the late 1990's you couldn't SEND spam from pop3 and imap
[11:31:51] <inz> Runaway, that's IMAP4/POP3, not smtp
[11:32:02] <Runaway1956> Ehh, my bad
[11:32:09] <Runaway1956> sorry
[11:32:26] <kyonko`> inz: so they never had any proving who's who in smtp?
[11:32:40] <kyonko`> no uh.... certification
[11:32:59] <inz> kyonko, there's all kinds of things for that nowadays, but it's up to sending domain's admin to set it up
[11:33:08] <kyonko`> I just quickly looked up "postfix"
[11:33:13] <kyonko`> SMTP does RX and TX
[11:34:08] <kyonko`> spam is never "stopped" its just prevented from being seen by the user
[11:34:22] <kyonko`> it could be deleted on process, then you wouldn't be able to analyse trends
[11:35:59] <kyonko`> Mail systems such as Postfix and Qmail achieve high performance by delivering mail in parallel sessions. With mail systems such as Sendmail and Exim that make one connection at a time, high performance can be achieved by submitting limited batches of mail in parallel, so that each batch is delivered by a different process. Postfix and Qmail require parallel submission into different MTA instances
[11:36:19] <inz> kyonko, DKIM, SPF and DMARC are some attempts at detecting spoofed emails
[11:37:23] <kyonko`> back in my day, you could spoof an ip address, but it would stick out as a sore thumb origination from a uu.net dial up and then the echo going to the real ip owner
[11:38:12] <inz> You could drop windows users off IRC with a push of a button too
[11:38:27] <kyonko`> the dial ups gave you 100% routable internet access, bottle necked at 56k, and NAT'ed but you could buy some static IP's and route them
[11:39:15] <kyonko`> it would make more sense for your DSL ISP to give you a static IP or 2 or 3 or 4
[11:40:38] <inz> They'll probably do that once IPv6 actually rolls out :)
[11:41:15] <kyonko`> I'm on ipv6
[11:41:20] <kyonko`> its a big reason why I love my ISP
[11:41:34] <kyonko`> I can't route or serve
[11:41:47] <kyonko`> doesn't stop malware from doing an https vpn
[11:41:53] <inz> Your pubic lice can get their own addresses too
[11:43:27] <kyonko`> I need to register with irc.libera.chat
[11:43:33] <kyonko`> will be e-mail be accepted?
[11:43:43] <kyonko`> is it lynx friendly?
[11:44:08] <chromas> !grab inz
[11:44:08] <Bender> Added quote 1043
[11:45:02] <raxas> https://libera.chat
[11:45:02] <systemd> ^ 03Choosing an IRC client
[11:45:36] <Runaway1956> IMO, Hexchat is best client
[11:45:52] <kyonko`> i like hexchat, but it has problems when listing channels
[11:46:04] <chromas> and uses gtk
[11:46:11] <kyonko`> like MATE?
[11:46:29] <inz> My ISP has been "rolling out" IPv6 for (at least) 6 years now...
[11:46:40] <kyonko`> my cell phone internet had IPv6, then they dumped it
[11:46:41] <kyonko`> lol
[11:46:48] <kyonko`> back to deep nat
[11:47:40] <kyonko`> my IPv6 is fucking slow as shit, but on good times of the day, I get 6MBps
[11:47:49] <kyonko`> between 2am to 6am, so 4 hours
[11:48:08] <raxas> this is why china beats you, in every technology
[11:48:09] <inz> I think I could get v6 on my celly
[11:48:17] <chromas> is your internets faster on ipv4?
[11:48:22] <kyonko`> no, lol
[11:48:30] <kyonko`> ipv4 isn't better, it just has SHIT routing to irc networks
[11:48:31] <inz> But internet is bigger on v4 =)
[11:48:44] <kyonko`> actually IRC routing is impossible on ipv4 here
[11:49:03] <kyonko`> who uses irc anyway
[11:49:20] <inz> nerds.
[11:49:35] <inz> https://k2s.cc
[11:49:36] <systemd> ^ 03Keep2Share
[11:49:41] <inz> oops
[11:49:44] <inz> totally wrong paste
[11:49:53] <inz> sorry about the nsfw
[11:49:57] <inz> https://xkcd.com
[11:49:58] <systemd> ^ 03Team Chat
[11:49:59] <inz> that one
[11:50:41] <kyonko`> why is there nsfw internet at work in the first place?
[11:50:48] <inz> On a side note, does anyone know how to configure luakit to yank urls to clipboard instead of primary buffer...
[11:51:49] <raxas> you really want to collect urls to a database, not to clipboard
[11:52:47] <raxas> so. start with a fine postgresql installation first
[11:54:49] <inz> Can I got with SQLite, pg is too enterprisey for me
[11:54:56] <inz> -t
[11:55:33] <lcn> "SITE IS BACK UP restored from 2012-04-14." -- wow, wasn't aware you had been around that long
[11:56:34] <chromas> Someone's probably got the dylsexia
[11:56:55] <chromas> my irc client uses postresql :D
[11:58:07] <inz> Mine uses MariaDB (through scripts though)
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[12:40:22] <SoyCow1016> Nerds also use Discord
[12:40:35] <SoyCow1016> I used to use IRC way back when but now I mostly use discord and encourage you guys to switch
[12:55:40] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Tardigrades Shot Out of a Gun to Test Origin-of-Life Theory - https://sylnt.us - what-a-rush!
[13:20:03] <raxas> convey our greetings to discord nerds then, we old punks stay ircing
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[15:10:53] <FatPhil> =submit https://www.wired.com
[15:10:56] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03The Full Story of the Stunning RSA Hack Can Finally be Told" (63p) -> https://soylentnews.org
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[16:21:34] Bytram changed topic of #soylent to: SITE IS BACK UP restored from 2021-04-14. | Please keep discussions civil | SN Main Channel | https://soylentnews.org | Some PISG charts: https://stats.sylnt.us | This channel IS logged and publicly displayed here https://logs.sylnt.us
[16:29:08] <Bytram> lcn: Fixed date of site restore, and FTI we went live: 2014-02-17 02:06:00
[16:52:22] <Teckla> Thanks for the hard work on the site, guys!
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[17:26:09] -!- mode/#soylent [-s #soylent] by chromas
[17:37:44] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Unisantis Proposes Dynamic Flash Memory as a DRAM Alternative; Samsung Unveils CXL Memory Module - https://sylnt.us - waiting-for-one-with-serial-port,-parallel-port,-and-a-Hercules-video-adapter
[17:40:29] <AzumaHazuki> that sounds like a really bad idea unless the cells are rated for the kind of rewriting DRAM is
[18:14:46] <Bytram> Teckla: HTH! Besides, it's our site, too and *we* want it working so we can hand out with all of you!
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[20:42:39] <AzumaHazuki> C is for coffee, that's good enough for me~
[20:43:05] <FatPhil> K is for kettle, needed before coffee
[20:45:10] <FatPhil> and that's the click of one just boiled
[20:46:33] <Bytram> =yt C is for cookie
[20:46:34] <systemd> https://youtube.com - Sesame Street: Cookie Monster Sings C is for Cookie (01:34; 36,513,146 views; 👍54,789 👎9,656)
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[22:06:15] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - 4 Vulnerabilities Under Attack Give Hackers Full Control of Android Devices - https://sylnt.us - Im-still-on-android-6
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[22:21:23] <onetwo_> g'day
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[22:44:00] <FatPhil> bonsoir onetwo_
[22:44:50] <FatPhil> oven is terrifying, eh? = everything is on fire (anagram)
[22:49:04] <FatPhil> = i.e. horrifying events
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[23:30:51] * bacteria opens 4th 9trumer pils
[23:31:10] <bacteria> what a great afternoon
[23:32:10] <bacteria> https://i.pinimg.com