#soylent | Logs for 2020-12-07
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[00:21:50] <c0lo> No pork was mentioned in the yt.
[00:23:33] <c0lo> Oh, noes. Giuliani got the Trump virus https://twitter.com
[00:23:35] <systemd> ^ 03Twitter ( https://mobile.twitter.com )
[00:24:04] <AzumaHazuki> this thing has a terrible record for killing the people who actually deserve it...
[00:24:31] <AzumaHazuki> besides which, the only way we'll be rid of Giuliani for good is if we find and burn his phylactery
[00:26:20] <c0lo> So, 'Zumi, how many horcruxes Giuliani still has?
[00:29:35] <AzumaHazuki> if i knew i'd long since have destroyed them...
[00:29:52] <FatPhil> I'm curious how you can read and acknowledge the "latkes with pulled pork" without seeing the pork part.
[00:35:15] <FatPhil> so, are you suggesting we set up a research facility to engineer a strain which is good at killing those that deserve it?
[00:35:20] <FatPhil> sounds expensive
[00:35:30] <FatPhil> We should outsource it.
[00:36:26] <c0lo> FatPhil, pork is irelevant in the context set by the "The Food of the World" documentary.
[00:38:21] <c0lo> No country claimed pork as the national specific, nothing needs to be explained about it.
[00:38:31] <FatPhil> i wouldn't know, I can't view YTs on my phone, thanks to "progress".
[00:38:58] <FatPhil> however, it appeared to be explaining foods of the world, so I asked for an explanation.
[00:39:01] <c0lo> (mod me Informative, then)
[00:39:35] <FatPhil> it contains a logical flaw, so nope.
[00:40:43] <c0lo> Can you see this one? https://xkcd.com
[00:40:43] <systemd> ^ 03Formal Languages
[00:41:39] <FatPhil> nope, too much "progress": Cannot communicate securely with peer: no common encryption algorithm(s).
[00:43:37] <c0lo> You're still using deprecated algos for https? Try wget with http://xkcd.com
[00:43:37] <systemd> ^ 03Formal Languages ( https://xkcd.com )
[00:44:31] <c0lo> (no httpS, you dumb systemd. Use plain http, the wisdow doesn't need encryption)
[00:45:20] <FatPhil> it demands teh secures!
[00:47:27] <c0lo> Can't help you, FatPhil. The progress is unstopable.
[00:51:04] <c0lo> "a strain which is good at killing those that deserve it" - well, that shouldn't be *that* hard, just bring ebola to infect by air.
[00:51:50] <AzumaHazuki> we've got an answer to the Fermi paradox, i think
[00:52:26] <c0lo> Just a hypothesis, 'Zumi, just a hypothesis.
[00:54:55] <AzumaHazuki> a well supported one, viz, "people are fucking stupid"
[00:57:30] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Physicists Capture the Sound of a “Perfect” Fluid - https://sylnt.us
[00:57:50] <c0lo> People are fucking, Zumi. That's their only chance to survival as species, the fact their are fucking stupid is unjustified scope narrowing.
[00:59:27] <FatPhil> stupid people are fucking stupid people.
[01:07:53] <Runaway1956> That's because us smart people won't fuck them, so they have to fuck each other fatphil
[01:08:26] <Runaway1956> !grab FatPhil
[01:08:26] <Bender> Added quote 1009
[01:08:56] * Runaway1956 grabs FatPhil and throws him to the ground
[01:09:41] <AzumaHazuki> get a room
[01:12:33] <FatPhil> preferably a solitary padded cell.
[01:21:50] <FatPhil> https://www.nbcsports.com
[01:21:51] <systemd> ^ 03NBA suspends random marijuana testing for 2020-21 season
[01:27:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> dunno why they were testing for it anyway. it's not exactly a performance enhancing drug
[01:28:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> frankly, i'm surprised they don't pump a little pot smoke into the arenas to raise concession sales during games.
[01:32:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> #submit https://hackaday.com
[01:32:55] <MrPlow> Submitting. There is a mandatory delay, please be patient.
[01:33:21] <MrPlow> Submission successful. https://soylentnews.org
[01:40:31] <FatPhil> zyklon-b rings a bell, cardi-b is new to me.
[01:47:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> way worse
[01:47:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> zyklon-b isn't painful, at least not for long
[01:53:33] <chromas> Didn't the Fermi paradox have something to do with old graphics cards not dropping in price when the new ones came out?
[02:04:02] <FatPhil> but were they dropping frames?
[02:08:38] <Runaway1956> mosquitos? Huh?
[02:10:25] <Runaway1956> weird . . .
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[02:31:07] <AzumaHazuki> okay, groceries acquired. time for cookin's <3 pork and pearl barley stew with onions and mushrooms
[02:35:41] <Bytram> AzumaHazuki: Hmmm, that does sound tasty
[02:36:37] * Bytram wanders back in after an extended power outage and then running some errands.
[02:46:46] <Bytram> Urrk? How'd *this* happen? Went to load a page in a new Firefox window. Got this message:
[02:46:47] <Bytram> Sorry. We just need to do one small thing to keep going.
[02:46:47] <Bytram> Firefox has just been updated in the background. Click Restart Firefox to complete the update.
[02:46:47] <Bytram> We will restore all your pages, windows and tabs afterwards, so you can be on your way quickly.
[02:46:53] <Bytram> ???
[02:47:18] <chromas> It can't start a new process for the tab. You can keep using your existing tabs though
[02:47:40] <Bytram> Why would FF be updating in the background?
[02:47:48] <Bytram> How do I turn it off?
[02:48:08] <chromas> on Linux, I dunno why it would be doing that.
[02:49:02] <Bytram> How in the world can I test/debug something when it changes underneath me?
[02:50:45] <Bytram> Do NOT download/update without explicitly asking me AND getting my direct permission. For that matter, do not do *anything* "for" me without getting explicit, prior permission!
[02:50:47] <chromas> You shouldn't be doing that. Go back to scrolling, consumer
[02:50:59] <Bytram> !grab chromas
[02:50:59] <Bender> Added quote 1010
[02:51:17] <chromas> Well on my lap here, the updates section in the preferences doesn't have any options
[02:51:56] <chromas> not sure if they're missing because mozilla is butts or because I'm on linux and have a package manager
[02:53:21] <chromas> There's some amount of options in about:config
[02:53:55] <Bytram> "some" options he says?
[02:55:10] <chromas> app.update.auto
[02:55:50] <Bytram> Firefox Updates
[02:55:50] <Bytram> Keep Firefox up to date for the best performance, stability, and security.
[02:55:50] <Bytram> Version 81.0.2 (64-bit) What’s new
[02:56:12] <Bytram> ^^^ saw that on about:preferences#general
[02:58:51] <chromas> or maybe your ubuntu automatically updated itself
[03:00:44] * Bytram toggles app.update.auto to "false" -- also notes there are ~30 preferences starting with "app.update.auto" :/
[03:02:33] <Bytram> should not; I believe I have that clamped down, as well. When on a limited bandwidth connection with a 15 GB data cap... one tends to be conscientious about such things.
[03:03:05] * Bytram clicks to let it restart Fierfox.
[03:03:15] <AzumaHazuki> should be ready in ~45m, now
[03:03:35] <AzumaHazuki> it's pork, so i grated in ginger and put miso paste in the broth. should be a nice east/west fusion
[03:04:18] <chromas> Does that make it a transcontinental breakfast?
[03:04:25] <Bytram> Well, FF is no longer running, but to me "restart"means it goes away and then starts back up again... seams like FF forgot to do something.
[03:04:27] <pinchy> mystery meat soup
[03:05:32] * Bytram manually restarts FF
[03:06:19] <Bytram> and notices all his 6 or so private browsing windows disappeared. Gee, thanks for nothing FF!
[03:06:29] <AzumaHazuki> technically a transcontinental supper, i think? night shift is doing all sorts of odd things to me
[03:06:52] <AzumaHazuki> i find i like it though. it's nice and quiet, very few people around. i can really bare down and work
[03:07:09] <Bytram> Hmm, inter-continental, methinks.
[03:07:28] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Google Illegally Spied on Workers Before Firing Them, US Labor Board Alleges - https://sylnt.us
[03:07:49] <Bytram> afk; biab
[03:14:25] <requerdanos> "bare down" means "remove one's clothing."
[03:14:56] <requerdanos> Either there's a typo in there, or your job is much more interesting/creepy than I suspected
[03:16:55] <chromas> Makin' them viral TikTok vidyas
[03:57:03] <AzumaHazuki> there we are. good stuff, if a little bland. needs kecap manis or so
[04:02:31] <c0lo> Next time put the ginger in later. If you used the pressure cooker, depressurize then let it simmer with the ginger another 10-15 mins.
[04:04:17] <c0lo> (try galangal some time, may like it better than ginger)
[04:11:26] <AzumaHazuki> ooh, nice idea. i had the ginger in the bottom with onions and mushrooms and was sauteeing them
[04:19:13] <c0lo> Too long the cooking or too high the temperature (pressure cooker or overheated in oil) will destroy the enzymes that get ginger the kick. If none happened in your case, you didn't use enough ginger.
[04:21:22] <AzumaHazuki> there was some, but yeah. i'm not surprised; the temperature in there has to be approaching 250*F effective
[04:26:06] <c0lo> https://en.wikipedia.org unlike piperine, degrades on prolonged heating
[04:26:07] <systemd> ^ 03Shogaol - Wikipedia
[04:28:39] <AzumaHazuki> that's the really active stuff too.
[04:30:00] <AzumaHazuki> it's really interesting how so many of these organic molecules are just variations on a theme. this is basically catechol with a long-ish partially-unsaturated hydrocarbon tail
[04:30:37] <AzumaHazuki> this one's got a hydroxyl and an ether link off the main phenol ring, and a ketone group down the chain
[04:32:20] <AzumaHazuki> hm, and its synthesis pathway involves the coumarin family. that explains a lot.
[04:35:37] <c0lo> For galangal https://www.researchgate.net
[04:35:38] <systemd> ^ 03(PDF) Pungent Principal of Alpinia galangal (L.) Swartz and Its Applications
[04:38:41] <AzumaHazuki> oooh, neat. i've had the dried powder before. it's like a gentle, shy ginger with a little extra complexity
[04:40:39] <c0lo> https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
[04:40:40] <systemd> ^ 031'-Acetoxychavicol acetate
[04:41:05] <c0lo> (antineoplastic)
[04:42:00] <c0lo> Resists better to longer heating time, but will degrade too.
[04:42:09] <AzumaHazuki> i can't tell why that's an antineoplastic just by looking at it. i would guess it's a radical scavenger
[04:43:54] <c0lo> Maybe because of NF-kappaB inhibitor? How would I know, I'm mor interested in taste ;)
[04:45:27] * Bytram pokes his nose in and witnesses the most interesting cooking discussion he has *ever* seen before
[04:46:08] <AzumaHazuki> we are such nerds lol
[04:46:15] <Bytram> :D
[04:46:40] <Bytram> Cooking is just chemistry with good taste.
[04:47:05] <Bytram> (Well,one *hopes* it is good taste!)
[04:47:25] <Bytram> Or, at least, that it tastes good!
[04:48:23] <Bytram> And, with that bon mot (bon bon?) I bid you all adieu!
[04:48:35] <Bytram> Have a great night everybody!
[04:51:10] <Runaway1956> Wait - there were bon bons? And I missed out?
[04:51:38] <c0lo> Meh, takes some cooking misfortune to know acroleins doesn't confer any better taste to biochars of protein origin.
[04:54:17] <c0lo> Runaway1956, you should use quite a lot of galangal in your food; for its guaiol content.
[05:01:29] * Runaway1956 doesn't like guacamole much
[05:16:11] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - The Supreme Court Will Finally Rule on Controversial US Hacking Law - https://sylnt.us
[06:09:54] <c0lo> =submit https://www.businessinsider.com.au hitting-the-sex-tech-engineering-in-stem
[06:09:57] <systemd> Submitting "Technology is making sex toys better and smarter for men. Here’s what's changed"...
[06:10:18] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Technology is Making Sex Toys Better and Smarter for Men. Here’s What's Changed" (21 paragraphs) -> https://soylentnews.org
[07:27:50] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Timnit Gebru’s Actual Paper May Explain Why Google Ejected Her - https://sylnt.us - setting-a-date
[08:20:55] <c0lo> You miss 100% of the shots you don't take https://www.theguardian.com
[08:20:57] <systemd> ^ 03Georgia debate: Jon Ossoff debates empty podium as Senator David Perdue skips debate – video
[08:25:56] <c0lo> (bad place, sorry)
[08:36:07] <c0lo> =submit https://www.bbc.com
[08:36:11] <systemd> Submitting "Why Covid may mean more facial recognition tech"...
[08:36:32] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Why Covid May Mean More Facial Recognition Tech" (29 paragraphs) -> https://soylentnews.org
[08:47:02] <AzumaHazuki> https://rantswithintheundeadgod.blogspot.com this is really good
[08:47:03] <systemd> ^ 03Islam and the Secret of Monotheism
[08:47:29] <AzumaHazuki> this guy managed to articulate what i've been struggling to put into words about the necessarily-entailed logical conclusions of the Abrahamic religions
[09:09:24] <c0lo> Reading it, I don't think I ever met a "true muslim" even if I had and have muslim work mates. I didn't see in them any detachment from the reality of life around them.
[09:13:06] <c0lo> (groan, that's a wall of text worth at least 1 hour to read it. I'm giving up)
[09:16:02] <c0lo> "by submitting so systematically to God’s will" that's something that I did not see - if the rant hinges on it as a required hypothesis, I'm afraid it's a straw man.
[09:37:25] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - How Do Archaeologists Know Where to Dig? - https://sylnt.us
[09:47:22] <FatPhil> Abrahamic religions are not logically founded, they have no logical conclusions!
[09:48:36] <FatPhil> There has been a fashion to try and academify religion, and give it a logical veneer, which of course might be counterproductive, when their attempts to legitimise their woo-woo are found to be sadly wanting.
[09:53:13] <FatPhil> Ugh, no that's a terrible article. There's at least one facepalm moment in every paragraph I've read so far.
[10:01:27] <AzumaHazuki> such as...?
[10:02:05] <AzumaHazuki> the most i can fault him on is taking some aspects of these religions too literally, but so do the believers
[10:03:14] <c0lo> Oh, come on, FatPhil. Pastafarianism has its origin in Global Warming vs #of pirates, absolutely fuzzy logic. https://en.wikipedia.org(en).svg
[10:03:16] <systemd> ^ 03Flying Spaghetti Monster - Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org )
[10:03:46] <c0lo> 'Zumi, "but so do the believers" - have you met many?
[10:05:24] <FatPhil> I think using a non-standard definition of monotheistic should be the thing that makes you throw the whole article out right at the start, given that it's the core of what the article is about - the clue's in the title.
[10:05:46] <AzumaHazuki> c0lo: yes, plenty. exoteric/esoteric split
[10:06:02] <AzumaHazuki> and, FatPhil, what's the nonstandard definition here?
[10:06:15] <FatPhil> the one he uses!
[10:06:28] <AzumaHazuki> i mean what's nonstandard about it?
[10:06:46] <AzumaHazuki> for all intents and purposes, "monotheism" == "the Abrahamic faiths"
[10:07:05] <FatPhil> it doesn't exclude polytheism. which is a terrible definition for monotheism, IMHO.
[10:07:42] <FatPhil> Seems he's thinking of monolatrous instead.
[10:08:24] <AzumaHazuki> ...for fuck's sake, THAT'S the issue you take with the article? the basic thrust of it is still the same
[10:08:40] <c0lo> ("monotheism" == "the Abrahamic faiths"... groan)
[10:10:18] <AzumaHazuki> again...for all intents and purposes that's what it means. and don't lump Deism under monotheism, as deism isn't theism
[10:10:48] <FatPhil> No, that was simply the facepalm that was so egregious I give the article very little weight, as it's supported by ill-defined or even contradictorily-defined terms.
[10:11:13] <AzumaHazuki> bloody just read it, will you? i had some of the same nagging doubts but soldiered on anyway and found some good points in there
[10:11:24] <FatPhil> The problem with *his* view of monotheism is that it includes polytheism.
[10:13:11] <AzumaHazuki> henotheism and monolatry are embryonic monotheism. it's the work of seconds to go from "there's one god greater than the others" to "wait a minute, that means the others aren't actually gods"
[10:13:13] <FatPhil> I'm only a humble hindu god, and I ran out of hands to facepalm with before I reached the end.
[10:16:24] <c0lo> Zumi, do you know any "true muslim"?
[10:17:11] <AzumaHazuki> define "true muslim." because i smell an oncoming debate about oatmeal and sugar
[10:17:35] <FatPhil> I know two - they both think each other is an infidel
[10:18:18] * AzumaHazuki think they can both go to that hell they have such a permanent hardon for cursing one another 9_9
[10:18:50] <AzumaHazuki> again...what is a "true muslim?"
[10:18:54] <c0lo> The "prototype" of muslim as described by the wall of text that you linked to.
[10:19:40] <AzumaHazuki> that's kinda the point though: no one can live up to impossible literary standards and any putative God that would expect any of its creations to is ratshit insane
[10:19:48] <AzumaHazuki> which is one of the points being made here
[10:20:05] <c0lo> And "know" - means at least going to a lunch together from time to time and having discussions of personal nature - family, kids, etc.
[10:21:26] <c0lo> You mean that wall of text is ranting about an abstraction that was created to demonstrate that it's imposible to live in strict adherence to the Islamic religion?
[10:22:20] <AzumaHazuki> did you even read the thing?
[10:24:54] -!- FatPhil has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
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[10:26:27] FatPhil is now known as SoyGuest49133
[10:31:15] <c0lo> 'Zumi, it not "the thing", I can't read the whole wall of text. Either you answer to me with a brief and I _may_ continue the conversation or I'll drop the subject and switch to nyan-cat. Or to Timnit Gebru. Or better still, cleaning my Jira queue of the bugs I fixed last week.
[10:40:40] <SoyGuest49133> I don't find statements like "monolatry is embrionic monotheism" to counter my objection. They are not necessary precursors, and do not necessarily lead to monotheism. A common precursor, yes, but that's all.
[10:46:31] <AzumaHazuki> er...it's inevitable. again, it's a few seconds' thought to go from "there's lots of gods but only one is supreme" to "wait, that means all the lesser gods are dependent on it and created by it. so there's really only one"
[10:50:36] <SoyGuest49133> erm, it's not inevitable, and your framing of monolatry is a caricature.
[10:50:53] <AzumaHazuki> how so? it's well-documented how Judaism evolved
[10:51:56] <SoyGuest49133> judeism isn't the entirity of monolatry, you've got terrible tunnelvision.
[10:56:02] <AzumaHazuki> i am well aware of, for example, the different sects of Hinduism revering Krishna or Shiva as the Supreme, thanks...
[10:56:33] <AzumaHazuki> read a little more about those and you get the distinct impression than even the gods, even whichever Supreme One, are metaphors
[10:58:46] <c0lo> https://en.wikipedia.org(Bah%C3%A1%CA%BC%C3%AD_Faith)
[10:58:48] <systemd> ^ 03Manifestation of God (Baháʼí Faith) - Wikipedia
[10:59:11] <c0lo> Fit ^ in your model.
[11:00:24] <AzumaHazuki> uh...the Bahai Manifestations of God aren't even lowercase-g gods
[11:00:45] <AzumaHazuki> they're superhuman, yes, but not even on the level of a given Ba'al idol
[11:14:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> you guys are funny. arguing over religions when religions themselves are people arguing over shit they're fundamentally incapable of understanding.
[11:15:15] <AzumaHazuki> i'm just arguing over the semantics. i know very well pretty much all of it is, as you said, things people are fundamentally incapable of grasping
[11:15:17] <SoyGuest49133> Your argument is even weaker because you don't even seem to understand the logical concept of necessity. Even if *every single example* of a monolatry evolved into monotheism, that still wouldn't mean that monolatries necessarily become monotheistic.
[11:15:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> ahh, fair nuff. i can back a bit of pedantry for amusement.
[11:16:15] <AzumaHazuki> SoyGuest49133: and i would argue that, as time T approaches infinity, the odds of someone having the "aha moment" ("there can only be one capital-G God at most") approach 100%
[11:16:43] <c0lo> 'Zumi, you can argue, but can you prove it?
[11:16:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'll leave yall to it and go play video games then
[11:16:55] <AzumaHazuki> the law of large numbers basically forces this to happen. Anything that has greater probability than flat zero of happening will happen given enough time
[11:17:08] <SoyGuest49133> That's not how logic works, sorry.
[11:17:51] <SoyGuest49133> TheMightyBuzzard: my very first input to the discussion was " Abrahamic religions are not logically founded, they have no logical
[11:17:54] <SoyGuest49133> conclusions!"
[11:17:56] <AzumaHazuki> okay, your refutation of the law of large numbers is...?
[11:18:06] <SoyGuest49133> That it's irrelevant here.
[11:18:21] <SoyGuest49133> And that's not the law of large numbers.
[11:18:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> no religions are logically founded. if they were dealing with facts and logic they wouldn't be religions.
[11:19:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> well, except scientology. it's purpose built and functions quite well at its purpose.
[11:19:51] <c0lo> If you wait long enough, by the number of statistical fluctuations, there is no law in physics that says the mug that just shattered on the floor won't become whole again. Good luck waiting for it to happen.
[11:19:53] <SoyGuest49133> Well, yeah, I know, that was part of my point. It's a fools errand trying to slap some sense onto either them or their arguments.
[11:19:53] <c0lo> See https://en.wikipedia.org
[11:19:54] <systemd> ^ 03Ergodic hypothesis - Wikipedia
[11:23:13] <AzumaHazuki> c0lo, yes, this is true (or would be were it not for things like heat death being vastly more probably to happen before that does)
[11:23:25] <AzumaHazuki> infinity isn't just "a long time" though. infinity is infinity
[11:24:16] <AzumaHazuki> it's like how, if you read off pi long enough (assuming pi actually is infinitely long) you will get a numerical representation of every book ever written
[11:24:44] <SoyGuest49133> AzumaHazuki: you do realise that if you are attempting to destroy c0lo's argument, you are destroying your own one too?
[11:26:28] <AzumaHazuki> how so? I think we've lost the thread a bit here
[11:26:45] <SoyGuest49133> yeah, because you keep introducing irrelevancies that need to be stamped out./
[11:27:10] <AzumaHazuki> i mean, yes, nothing is to say that in the finite time we have allotted to us as humans, all instances of monolatry will become monotheism. heat death and all
[11:27:33] <AzumaHazuki> but given theoretically enough time they would, as there is one possible state which effects this change, and it has probability > 0
[11:27:43] <SoyGuest49133> You introduced the aha moment approaching 100%, despite that not being a counter to my point that no necessity has been proven.
[11:28:18] <AzumaHazuki> it *is* a necessity, just not one that will absolutely happen before the conditions for it to cease to obtain.
[11:28:33] <SoyGuest49133> It is *not* a necessity, that's an absurd thing to say.
[11:29:00] <SoyGuest49133> I can invent a religion right now that acts as a counter-example if you don't believe me.
[11:30:32] <AzumaHazuki> but this is a statement about the logic of monolatry and its progression to monotheism, not a specific religion
[11:31:32] <SoyGuest49133> Fuck me, you know nothing about how logic works.
[11:32:09] <AzumaHazuki> i mean, i'm willing to learn...?
[11:32:14] <AzumaHazuki> please tell me of this religion
[11:32:18] <c0lo> Zumi, here's a 12 mins which you may find interesting https://www.youtube.com
[11:32:19] <systemd> ^ 03Is Infinity Real?
[11:32:34] <AzumaHazuki> oh, don't worry, i'm not a mathematical Platonist
[11:33:32] <SoyGuest49133> It's just 101 predicate logic. You appear to be familiar with some of the building blocks, you just have no idea how to put them together.
[11:34:59] <AzumaHazuki> i'm not saying it will take infinite time for this to happen, just that as elapsed time asymptotically approaches infinity, probability of any possible event is 100%
[11:35:24] <AzumaHazuki> we may not have that much time to work with, as it were, but i'm still speaking of a finite if undefined quantity
[11:36:53] <c0lo> I know no *active* religion that lasted for more than 50k years. That may put some limit in the theoretical considerations you apply for human cultural constructs.
[11:38:16] <AzumaHazuki> it's entirely possible that, given the other constraints you mention, it is not the case that all extant instances of monolatry will become monotheism. but given enough time, they all will
[11:39:51] <c0lo> Given enough time... looks very much like the conclusion of https://xkcd.com
[11:39:51] <systemd> ^ 03String Theory
[11:39:52] <SoyGuest49133> But it's irrelevant, as I mentioned as soon as you raised it. You are failing to understand necessity as a logical property.
[11:40:30] <AzumaHazuki> possibly? please tell me how
[11:40:32] <c0lo> (let's assume we have enough time... what would it mean?)
[11:41:35] <AzumaHazuki> c0lo: all it means is, given enough time, the probability of any event that is not impossible is 100%. we know from observation that [monolatry becoming monotheism through a little analysis on what "God" means] is possible, and we've seen it happen.
[11:42:28] <SoyGuest49133> Well, to satisfy the original conditions we were given, any monolatrous religion, whilst still monolatrous, is polytheistic, not monotheistic. And that's enough to dismiss the original article. Even tendencies - which again are a thing that you introduced - are irrelevant.
[11:43:21] <c0lo> zumi, I didn't ask you for the meaning, I was explaning how your assumption is like the string theory.
[11:44:20] <AzumaHazuki> okay, so at what point does monolatry become closer to monotheism than polytheism? is the *theism suffix here "acknowledgement of other divinities, of varying degrees" or is it "worship of these same divinities?"
[11:46:07] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Meet the New Generation of Puzzle-Makers Bringing Mystery to Your Door - https://sylnt.us - lighten-up
[11:49:29] <SoyGuest49133> It's closer to monotheism then polytheism when it becomes monotheism.
[11:52:21] <AzumaHazuki> but at what point is this? where is the dividing line between "lesser gods" and "angels" or whatever?
[11:53:58] <SoyGuest49133> I'm an igtheist, that would be for them to argue over.
[11:54:31] <AzumaHazuki> er...that kind of sounds like you don't have any actual skin in this game then
[11:54:43] <SoyGuest49133> Definitely not.
[11:55:23] <SoyGuest49133> But if someone's going to adopt a non-standard definition of a word that has a common, if contingent, definition, I'm going to highlight that.
[11:55:57] <AzumaHazuki> language is inefficient isn't it...?
[11:56:22] <SoyGuest49133> If people use it sloppily, yes.
[11:57:15] <SoyGuest49133> Alas most of the well respected thinkers in the field have decided to coin their own definitions of words, and so even the experts are dicking about.
[11:59:07] <SoyGuest49133> You can probably tell, I align myself most with people like Russell.
[12:03:45] <AzumaHazuki> actually, regarding igtheism...does yours stem from the position that a coherent God-idea has not been explained to you, or the position that such a thing cannot be postulated?
[12:07:03] <SoyGuest49133> The latter. The concept is significantly less coherent than that of a square circle to me.
[12:07:28] <SoyGuest49133> (Square circles are trivial, just use the L_inf metric)
[12:09:58] <AzumaHazuki> i think some God-concepts are coherent, just not personal ones
[12:10:12] <AzumaHazuki> which is why i'm (sort of) a Deist instead of some identifiable theistic religion
[12:10:15] <SoyGuest49133> Not quite analolgous to Godel's incompleteness theorem, I think any definition that is strong enough to have any meaning at all must have contraditions, but technically that does leave so-weak-they're-basically-meaningless definitions.
[12:11:42] <SoyGuest49133> Total extreme pantheism (where literally everything has the god quality) wouldn't lead to contradition, but absent any other assumptions, which I would not let past, is basically useless.
[12:13:25] <AzumaHazuki> panentheism too
[12:15:25] <SoyGuest49133> mine would be even more extreme than normal pantheism, even abstract concepts would have to have it. The number 0 would have godness. The idea of square circles would have godness. And I'm an extreme Ockhamist too - this property would be one that always could be excluded from every argument, and basically be definitially useless.
[12:16:12] <SoyGuest49133> As you see, a very weak definition for a god! I'm not expecting any subscribers to my newsletter.
[12:16:17] <SoyGuest49133> Not even me.
[12:20:08] <SoyGuest49133> Time for a love story! https://www.zerohedge.com
[12:20:09] <systemd> ^ 03"I Love To Dominate" - Kazakh Bodybuilder Marries Sex Doll Girlfriend
[13:01:17] <Bytram> coffee++
[13:01:17] <Bender> karma - coffee: 5409
[14:26:06] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Laptop Vendors Will Pair AMD's Cezanne (Zen 3) with High-End GPUs - https://sylnt.us
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[15:36:43] <c0lo> =submit https://www.nature.com https://news.rice.edu
[15:37:22] <c0lo> =submit https://news.rice.edu
[15:37:27] <systemd> Submitting "Hidden structure found in essential metabolic machinery"...
[15:37:49] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Hidden Structure Found in Essential Metabolic Machinery" (40 paragraphs) -> https://soylentnews.org
[15:38:27] <c0lo> =doi 10.1038/s41467-020-20099-y
[15:38:28] <systemd> <p><b>Journal Reference</b>:<br/>Zachary J. Wright, Bonnie Bartel. <b>Peroxisomes form intralumenal vesicles with roles in fatty acid catabolism and protein compartmentalization in Arabidopsis</b> [open], <cite>Nature Communications</cite> (DOI: <a href="https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-020-20099-y">10.1038/s41467-020-20099-y</a>)</p>
[15:38:47] <c0lo> (full text ^^^)
[15:40:29] <c0lo> =submit https://www.sciencealert.com
[15:40:30] <systemd> Submitting "Scientists Say They've Identified The Best Place For Life to Have Existed on Mars"...
[15:40:52] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Scientists Say They've Identified the Best Place for Life to Have Existed on Mars" (19 paragraphs) -> https://soylentnews.org
[16:35:03] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Investigation of Relevance of Simulator Skills to Physical Driving - https://sylnt.us - fake-it-untill-you-make-it
[16:59:43] <c0lo> =submit https://www.itwire.com
[16:59:47] <systemd> Submitting "iTWire - OpenZFS has released an update, but how many users really care?"...
[17:00:09] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03iTWire - OpenZFS Has Released an Update, but How Many Users Really Care?" (28 paragraphs) -> https://soylentnews.org
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[18:46:42] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Hidden Structure Found in Essential Metabolic Machinery - https://sylnt.us
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[20:56:17] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Scientists Say They've Identified the Best Place for Life to Have Existed on Mars - https://sylnt.us - downtown-district
[20:58:39] <Bytram> =g nf83yzzme2I
[20:58:40] <systemd> https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com - Starship SN8 Test Launch Campaign - UPDATES
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[22:51:16] <Bytram> c0lo++ Good luck with that
[22:51:16] <Bender> karma - c0lo: 16
[22:51:55] <Bytram> requerdanos++ you, too!
[22:51:55] <Bender> karma - requerdanos: 9
[22:51:59] <Bytram> laters
[22:52:03] <requerdanos> peace
[22:56:09] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - SpaceX Gets $886 Million From FCC to Subsidize Starlink in 35 States - https://sylnt.us - money-makes-the-world-go-round
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[23:38:45] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - SpaceX Gets $886 Million from FCC to Subsidize Starlink in 35 States - https://sylnt.us - money-makes-the-world-go-round