#soylent | Logs for 2020-11-22

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[00:04:59] <Runaway1956> themightybuzzard - a recipe for Shawnee cakes that uses wheat flour can't be authentic, can it?
[00:09:24] <chromas> FatPhil can pipe up here but I'm pretty sure standardized spelling is a recent thing
[00:09:54] <chromas> So you can spell it however you chews
[00:12:02] <Runaway1956> After thinking and reading a bit, I suppose 'Murican Indians used amaranth and/or barley to get the good glutinous stick-togetherness of wheat flower
[00:14:13] <Runaway1956> s/flower/flour/
[00:14:13] <SedBot> <Runaway1956> After thinking and reading a bit, I suppose 'Murican Indians used amaranth and/or barley to get the good glutinous stick-togetherness of wheat flour
[00:28:58] -!- aristarchus_ [aristarchus_!~a939a545@85.a4.05a4.ip9.static.sl-reverse.com] has joined #soylent
[00:46:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> Runaway1956, google indian fry bread
[00:49:12] <Runaway1956> everything I'm seeing calls for all purpose flour, which I thought was not native to the Americas
[00:50:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> dude, if i sit down and draw a stick figure, it's authentic indian art. indians ain't defined by what folks saw of us hundreds of years ago.
[00:51:42] <Runaway1956> 'course not - but I'm interested in what those cakes were like BEFORE Euros introduced wheat flour
[00:59:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> shitty i expect. like most food.
[00:59:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> when's the last time you saw an indian salt shaker?
[01:00:05] <Runaway1956> Like most food, it probably tasted damned good when you were hungry
[01:00:34] <Runaway1956> Even a pig's ass tastes good when I'm hungry, LOL
[01:01:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> pig's ass tastes good all the time
[01:01:19] <Runaway1956> just eat around the center
[01:03:26] <Runaway1956> I'm about convinced that amaranth is the answer to the question, if I just knew how to frame the question
[01:04:03] <Runaway1956> except, amaranth is gluten free
[01:08:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> most indians didn't farm all that much anyway. their diets were pretty low on carbs (unless fruit was ripe) and high on fat.
[01:09:09] <Runaway1956> Renning's Maxim: Man is the highest animal. Man does the classifying.
[01:09:35] <Runaway1956> That maxim suggests that women might be the second highest animal?
[01:10:51] <Runaway1956> true that - especially for mid-western tribes I think
[01:11:08] <Runaway1956> can't grow a whole lot on arid land, really
[01:17:30] <FatPhil> chromas: the closest we get to standardised spelling is in about C18, but even then it's not proscriptive.
[01:39:11] <Runaway1956> can we just have standardized misspellings?
[01:41:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> i think colorodans are the highest animal but that'll be oregonians soon.
[01:59:34] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: I suspect it depends on region. Think Pilgrims in New England being taught about indiginous plants
[02:21:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, they grew things, it just wasn't their main food source. it couldn't be. seasonal.
[02:22:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> fish and critters are always edible though.
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[02:31:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> i need pie but the store is far
[02:50:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> TR discovered the Pogues this evening
[02:50:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> think i've heard christmas in new york half a dozen times at least since dinner
[02:50:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> sorry, fairytale of new york
[03:11:12] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: there's this thing called "preserving". Like drying and storing for later. Acorns were collected, soaked, dried, and ground into a dense/nutritious "flour" for baking. Dried apples. Root vegetables like beets, carrots, and potatoes could be stored in a "root cellar"
[03:12:22] <Bytram> dried berries, too: blackberry, blueberry, strawberry, raspberry, and boysenberry
[03:14:05] <Bytram> pumpkins and squashes. corn. there's *plenty* of native plants that could be cultivated and stored over the winter and into the spring until the first new growth became harvestable.
[03:19:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, kind of my point root cellars weren't really a thing you found over here until europeans brought them along. you ate what you could while you could and then ate what you preserved before it went bad. dried meat lasts a lot longer than dried fruit or flour of any variety (bugs and/or dampness).
[03:23:43] <Bytram> a "root cellar" is no engineering marvel. dig a hole and cover it. if they could make birch bark canoes (hint: they did), a covered root cellar it easy peasy by comparison.
[03:24:08] <Bytram> s/ it/ is/
[03:24:08] <SedBot> <Bytram> a "root cellar" is no engineering marvel. dig a hole and cover is. if they could make birch bark canoes (hint: they did), a covered root cellar it easy peasy by comparison.
[03:24:43] <Bytram> ugh, I give up. Gonna try to get to bed at a reasonable hour tonight.
[03:24:54] <Bytram> have a great night everybody!
[03:27:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> mmmm... ribs...
[03:27:49] <lld> TheMightyBuzzard: is tls1.3 here yet? Are we there yet? :)
[03:28:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> they're like meat popsicles
[03:29:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> lld, sn's using it right now
[03:29:35] <lld> ah maybe its just the irc server
[03:30:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, that's an ancient piece of something or other. the new one is running tls1.3 i think but we're not ready to switch over yet.
[03:30:39] <lld> ok, aaaaaaaaany day now
[03:30:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> more like sometime in the spring
[03:31:14] <lld> no rush
[03:32:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> wasn't gonna. god willing and the creek don't rise, i'll be living in the church by christmas and can enjoy a nice, leisurely schedule again.
[03:33:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> which is to say, i should have time to work on things that aren't currently on fire again.
[03:38:16] <c0lo> PA smells of rotten Kraken https://apnews.com
[03:38:17] <systemd> ^ 03In blistering ruling, judge throws out Trump suit in Pa.
[03:47:07] <AzumaHazuki> anyone still supporting this asshole is beyond redemption. i can almost forgive a 2016 vote, but not a 2020 one
[03:47:41] <c0lo> https://apnews.com
[03:47:42] <systemd> ^ 03Analysis: With silence, GOP enables Trump's risky endgame
[03:48:05] <c0lo> > “It’s making future stars of the Republican Party look tiny and small,” Brinkley said. “All of these senators are going to carry a dark mark on their legacy for coddling Trump after he lost.”
[03:48:05] <AzumaHazuki> indeed. amoral nihilists every last one. if they can't have it, they will burn it
[03:48:43] <AzumaHazuki> it's been...difficult, to come to grips with the fact that damn near half the voting public is anywhere from lethally stupid to hellbound sociopathic, but such is life
[03:48:47] <c0lo> Except there's no longer a Republican Party. It's the Party of Trump.
[03:49:00] <c0lo> As a proof:
[03:50:43] * TheMightyBuzzard chuckles
[03:50:45] <c0lo> https://twitter.com
[03:50:47] <systemd> ^ 03Twitter ( https://mobile.twitter.com )
[03:50:50] <Runaway1956> ROFLMAO
[03:51:24] <AzumaHazuki> did you see runaway's ranting yesterday? constantly posting videos of rats and such getting shot from helicopters and going "hurr hurr we need to do this to the Democrats." Civil as all get out, calling for genocide of your political opponents
[03:51:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> one of these days zumi will grow up and have enough life experience to look back and realize that pretty much all presidents suck and we somehow still muddle through.
[03:51:35] <c0lo> GA risks losing the Senate
[03:51:50] <AzumaHazuki> i don't ever wanna hear "waaaaah you're sooooooo hateful!!!1111one" from runaway again :D
[03:52:32] <c0lo> But you push him into pushing your buttons.
[03:52:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> shurg, stop being hateful then. him being the same makes him more qualified to spot it not less.
[03:52:41] <Runaway1956> zumi zumi zumi
[03:52:48] <AzumaHazuki> come at me <3
[03:53:09] <c0lo> Sometime I see reason in asking you get a room.
[03:53:19] <AzumaHazuki> the last time i saw anything this salty was when a shipping container full of off-brand Kraft dinner fell into the Pacific
[03:53:19] <Runaway1956> Life WOULD BE much simpler if we just neutered our liberals
[03:53:29] <AzumaHazuki> see? there he goes! keep it up!
[03:53:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, she thinks all this is some epic battle when it's really just another tedious election year.
[03:53:39] <Runaway1956> When we got those under control, then we could start on Republicans
[03:54:20] <Runaway1956> most likely she only became politically aware in time for the 2016 election
[03:54:35] <AzumaHazuki> s/2016/2000. and i was 12 at that point, sooooo~
[03:54:35] * SedBot offers AzimoHezeki a /
[03:54:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> Runaway1956, what's your excuse for getting all worked up though? =P
[03:54:55] <AzumaHazuki> because he can't ever resist taking the bait
[03:54:59] <Runaway1956> Me? Worked up? I'm a little worked up that Biden sucks
[03:55:09] <AzumaHazuki> it's like moths to a candle i swear to Athena
[03:55:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> you need to do more cynicism exercises
[03:55:51] <Runaway1956> zumi imagines herself to be the candle shining in the darkness?
[03:56:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> maybe hire some kids to walk across your lawn so you can yell at them. you're obviously not getting enough aggravation to stay in shape.
[03:56:23] <Runaway1956> lol
[03:56:36] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Frequent, Rapid Testing Could Cripple COVID-19 Within Weeks, Study Shows - https://sylnt.us - down-for-the-count?
[03:57:02] <AzumaHazuki> no, i'm just here for the popcorn
[03:57:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> um, i am NOT tickling my brain with a q-tip nine times a day.
[03:57:34] <AzumaHazuki> that's the best thing about you, Runaway: i don't need to do jack and/or shit. you're on the edge of apoplexy and making yourself nuttier by the day
[03:58:05] <Runaway1956> zoom zoom has it all figured out at age 32
[03:58:19] <AzumaHazuki> a reasonably bright third grader could figure you out, grandpa
[03:58:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> or wind him up at least
[03:58:58] <Runaway1956> she has no idea that I sit here laughing at her most of the time
[03:59:16] <AzumaHazuki> if that were true you wouldn't be so salty
[03:59:30] <Runaway1956> keep your tongue to yourself, I'm taken
[03:59:46] <AzumaHazuki> dude...it's coming off you in waves
[03:59:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> seriously though, in ten or twenty years you're gonna look back at the person you were today and be embarrassed that you thought every little thing was soooo tragic
[04:00:24] <Runaway1956> I dunno, we have bitter old ladies all over the world, like Barbara Streisand
[04:00:40] <AzumaHazuki> in 10 or 20 years I'll have settled into Canada nicely and watched the US collapse on itself
[04:00:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> that takes decades of master level stupidity courses though
[04:01:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> very much doubt it but you'll feel awful silly if someone reminds you that you thought it would.
[04:01:25] <AzumaHazuki> i hope it doesn't
[04:01:36] <AzumaHazuki> but the way things are going...well, empires die faster than people think
[04:01:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> like everyone was so sure the russians were going to nuke us, right up until the whole thing died in a whimper
[04:01:56] <Runaway1956> shit happens, and I'm ready for 4 years of silly shit
[04:02:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> four! more! beers!
[04:02:32] <Runaway1956> FOUR! MORE! CORONAS!!!
[04:02:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, i already got two.
[04:02:53] <Runaway1956> I withdraw that, that's going too damned far.
[04:03:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> they're on my feet.
[04:03:19] <Runaway1956> like fluffy slippers?
[04:03:26] * TheMightyBuzzard bought some Corona sandals because he's just that kind of smartass
[04:03:34] <Runaway1956> huh
[04:06:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> s'funny how folks look at a sense of humor like that and think it's just so terrible but most military and vet types would joke about an invading army while they're being invaded
[04:09:54] <Runaway1956> Of course. Give 'Zumi 2 years in close proximity to the medical field, even as a pill pusher, she'll develop a dark humor
[04:10:26] <AzumaHazuki> i already have a dark sense of humor. have you forgotten where i grew up and what i've seen?
[04:11:04] <Runaway1956> you have a very specialized sense of humor, unique to victims and deviants I think
[04:11:22] <AzumaHazuki> and you would know from experience on both points, I assume...?
[04:11:54] <c0lo> "in 10 or 20 years I'll have settled into Canada nicely and watched the US collapse on itself" after 20 years of Democrats governance, it's inevitable (grin)
[04:12:09] <Runaway1956> I wouldn't know about victim humor, I stopped being one about age 14
[04:12:40] <AzumaHazuki> see you just revealed more about yourself than you meant to again
[04:12:49] <AzumaHazuki> you have a real problem with oversharing, did anyone ever tell you?
[04:12:53] <Runaway1956> Oh, did I?
[04:13:14] <AzumaHazuki> for one thing, logically speaking, that means the last 50 years have been deviance :D
[04:13:20] <Runaway1956> I told you long ago that our childhoods were at least somewhat alike - you have short memory
[04:13:28] <AzumaHazuki> yeah i don't recall that one
[04:13:47] <Runaway1956> Most women love deviants, they just have to be the right kind of deviant
[04:13:59] <AzumaHazuki> i also don't recall growing up in WheretheFuck, Arkansas, with a family tree that looks like a telephone pole shagged a Chia Pet...that was also its cousin.
[04:14:34] <Runaway1956> You get really dumb sometimes - even Buzzard knows I'm a fucking transplanted Yankee
[04:15:26] <AzumaHazuki> i'm still trying to process that one. why the unmerciful haemorrhaging FUCK would you go to Arkansas over anywhere in New England?
[04:15:51] <Runaway1956> Tooo many fucking LIBERALS in New England, haven't you noticed?
[04:16:03] <AzumaHazuki> something's not adding up here, sorry
[04:16:26] <Runaway1956> Snot my problem that you can't add.
[04:16:30] <AzumaHazuki> I mean...Arkansas? The place Mississippi makes fun of?
[04:16:39] <AzumaHazuki> the place Alabama side-eyes?
[04:16:58] <Runaway1956> I did my civic duty here in Arkansas.
[04:17:16] <Runaway1956> I heard about all that inbreeding, so I came down to add some outside genetics to the mix.
[04:17:41] <AzumaHazuki> yeah, still not making sense
[04:18:09] <AzumaHazuki> ...wait, i get it. you signed up for the coastal defense of Arkansas
[04:18:19] <Runaway1956> Whatever . . . have you ever been to Arkansas, or Texas, or Oklahoma, or . . .
[04:18:36] <AzumaHazuki> not yet, but once I can get my hands on a flamethrower...
[04:18:56] <Runaway1956> Go for it, some Arkie will take you out, LOL
[04:19:25] <AzumaHazuki> i was just going to make popcorn al fresco :( why the assumption i'd immolate people?
[04:19:47] aristarchus_ is now known as Runaway1957
[04:20:20] <aristarchus> well, hello brother from another mother 'starchus!!
[04:21:05] <Runaway1957> Ignorant moron.
[04:21:38] <aristarchus> Maybe - but I wasn't ignorant enough to allow you to register my real nick
[04:22:19] <aristarchus> You know, I did tell you how you can get it back
[04:25:52] <AzumaHazuki> shank you with a Crysknife and take your water for his tribe, obviously
[04:26:20] <Runaway1957> Ignorant moran. Still. Did no know what Indian Frybread is? Seriously ignorant, even for an Arkansawsian.
[04:27:13] <Runaway1956> OK wiseguy, find the recipe used by North Eastern tribes BEFORE whitey brought wheat flour to the continent
[04:27:19] <Runaway1956> that was my interest
[04:28:06] <Runaway1956> like maybe "two cups of cornmeal and 3/4 cup of amaranth flour", which is what I suspect is near right
[04:28:30] <Runaway1957> Ignorant moron.
[04:29:15] <Runaway1956> Yes, and I'm still the guy you progressives envy the most.
[04:29:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, ourkansas is absolutely beautiful country. any shit we give them is just us giving them shit.
[04:29:49] <AzumaHazuki> oh, i'm sure the land is gorgeous. it's the people
[04:30:11] <Runaway1956> Ahhh, there aren't many New Yorkers down here, it's alright
[04:30:23] <AzumaHazuki> why are there *any?*
[04:30:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> vacation down south some time for a week or three. it'll fuck up your worldview hard.
[04:30:59] <AzumaHazuki> Hm, maybe Louisiana? I'd like to see Carnival sometime
[04:31:27] <Runaway1956> It's not all it's hyped up to be, but it's fun.
[04:32:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> skip mardi gras. try the jazz festival or hit bourbon street in the spring. cajuns aren't quite typical southerners but close enough.
[04:32:18] <Runaway1956> Bunch people get puking drunk, some of them get locked up, lots of people wake up not knowing where the hell they are
[04:32:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> louisana is entirely its own beastie, though it does share some traits.
[04:32:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> Runaway1956, exactly, good clean fun.
[04:33:09] <Runaway1957> Funny that an Okie, and a Tribal Member, should identify "Southern". Chickasaws originally from Georgia?
[04:33:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> TN
[04:33:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> like right around where i'm living in fact
[04:35:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> ari, i've been everywhere from brownsville north and from that line east. got to know people everywhere. southerners are both better people and more pleasant on average.
[04:36:28] <Runaway1956> "better" might be stretching it a little, but they're a helluva lot less uptight about everything
[04:36:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> they're still human beings, mind you, so better ain't necessarily saying a whole lot
[04:36:54] <Runaway1956> true
[04:37:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> Runaway1956, southerners are more inclined to help you out when you're in a pickle, whether they know you or not.
[04:38:43] <Runaway1956> Yes, that. If I told any neighbor in 20 miles that I was short on groceries, they would poach me a deer, happily, lol
[04:39:09] <Runaway1956> Telling a neighbor in most of New England that you're hungry would get a shrug
[04:39:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> my neighbor currently drives a fedex truck cause it's paying better than diesel mechanic right now. one town on his route folks leave baked goods and a pitcher of sweet tea out for the delivery guys.
[04:40:03] <Runaway1956> Don't tell me where that's at - I would have to steal his goodies!
[04:40:06] <Runaway1956> lol
[04:40:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> that's atypical but you'd fucking NEVER see that in a yankee city.
[04:40:51] <Runaway1956> my kids caught me stealing Santa's cookies and milk years ago - they still won't trust me on Christmas eve
[04:41:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> tell them they better make sure you have some too then.
[04:45:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, if you like the blues, hit beale street in memphis on your way down to NO. nice mix of chicago and delta. plus a lot less people passed out or pissing in the street than bourbon street.
[04:45:54] <AzumaHazuki> i think i'll give the entire nation south of the mason dixon line and west of, for example, erie pa, a hard pass
[04:46:20] <AzumaHazuki> cannot believe i wasted four fucking years in Milwaukee and Madison. Ugh.
[04:46:52] <AzumaHazuki> no, wait, longer than that even. sheeze, my brain doesn't even want to remember it
[04:46:53] <Runaway1957> Easy Rider! Arrested for parading without a permit! Yep, fine folks, except when you're in a heap of trouble, boy!
[04:47:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> i can't either. people get to be right shitty when you throw that much snow at them.
[04:47:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> aristarchus, not sure but i think the 70s might have ended a while back
[04:48:50] <Runaway1957> I did say "boy", hope that helps you feel like less of an old fart. Too late for the Runaway elder.
[04:49:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> the current generation doing everything grew up with every television show they watched telling them how isms were bad.
[04:49:08] <Runaway1956> All those stereotypes came from somewhere, true, but the country has changed since then.
[04:49:41] <Runaway1956> I've related multiple times that in the '90's the KKK had a major membership drive right here in Arkansas - and they were laughed out of town in most cases
[04:50:04] <Runaway1956> Identity politics has done nothing more than reawaken old forgotten resentments
[04:50:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> well, yeah. they'd have to be in most of the south. too many black folks here to stick around if you wanna hate on black folks.
[04:50:54] <AzumaHazuki> to the tune of some 70 million voters, yes. hell of an awakening
[04:51:13] <AzumaHazuki> 70 million assholes who're gonna roast in hellfire in a few years to decades
[04:51:22] * TheMightyBuzzard laughs
[04:51:32] <Runaway1956> *yawn*
[04:51:35] <AzumaHazuki> there's not enough room
[04:51:50] <AzumaHazuki> we're going to end up with a zombie plague. when hell runs out of room the evil dead stalk the earth
[04:52:10] <AzumaHazuki> ...and they won't just be limited to boardrooms, the white house, and chuck e cheese
[04:52:10] <Runaway1956> How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
[04:52:20] <Runaway1956> There's lotsa room, if it's a real place
[04:52:41] <AzumaHazuki> eh, i'm being rhetorical. it's a state, not a place. anywhere can be Hell
[04:52:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> you are funny. you really better hope nobody you know in meatspace ever learns about the logs here after you've grown up and dropped the hysteria and hyperbole. going to be embarassing as hell to look back and realize you were that clueless.
[04:53:09] <AzumaHazuki> coming from you, that is hilarious. or would be, were it not tragic
[04:53:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> you see me saying the world's ending because someone i don't like got elected?
[04:53:58] <AzumaHazuki> you don't have the will or the focus to concentrate on much past the next week or so
[04:54:07] <Runaway1956> I don't even see the world ending - it's just going to get marginally shittier
[04:54:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> you don't have the experience to know your ass from a hole in the ground on tragedy
[04:54:47] <AzumaHazuki> you really think that, don't you...?
[04:54:48] <AzumaHazuki> oh well
[04:54:50] <Runaway1956> At least there was no "Blue Wave" bullshit
[04:54:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> Runaway1956, marginally to low moderately, yeah
[04:55:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, i know that for a fact. because i DO have the experience.
[04:55:26] <AzumaHazuki> well, why not up stakes and go somewhere more aligned with your...heh..."values" then? Somalia maybe
[04:55:40] <Runaway1957> Ignorant, morons.
[04:55:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm fine here, thanks. i'll just keep trying to make it better while you keep trying to make it worse from up in canada.
[04:56:11] <Runaway1956> Aristarchus-- for repetiveness
[04:56:11] <Bender> karma - aristarchus: 4
[04:56:17] <AzumaHazuki> how would i have any effect at all from across the border?
[04:56:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> you'll win some, i'll win some, and hopefully i'll win more than you.
[04:56:54] <AzumaHazuki> i don't want to make things better or worse at that point. i want to forget the first 32 (33 or maybe 34) years of my life entirely and put down roots in a civilized nation
[04:57:09] <c0lo> Guys, just stop telling Zumi what she's losing by not visiting the south, it makes me sorry I absolutely hate taking my shoes off as a condition of boarding.
[04:57:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> vote californian by mail of course. all you need are your last four social and a po box.
[04:57:26] <Runaway1956> fuck, you don't forget, ever - no matter where you go, there you are
[04:57:33] <Runaway1956> you can't run away from yourself
[04:57:47] <Runaway1956> shit - it don't even take a philosopher to figure that out
[04:57:52] <AzumaHazuki> once i escape, i won't give the proverbial pair of fetid dingo's kidneys what happens to the US. there's nothing tying me down here
[04:58:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep, you'll have to find all new flavors of injustice and outrage up there.
[04:58:34] * Runaway1956 tries hard to remember the last barefoot woman he saw in Arkansas
[04:58:53] <AzumaHazuki> Sure, Buffalo's nice and I miss a lot about NYC proper, but it's just geography
[04:59:32] <Runaway1956> Just to let you know, there's lots of lonelies in Canada
[04:59:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> i run around barefoot a lot but not beyond my yard. mostly because the weather's generally nice enough to and it makes my feet less funky by the end of the day.
[04:59:40] <Runaway1956> people aren't packed on top of each other
[05:00:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> true but you can get a lynx as a house cat
[05:00:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> and not have to worry about a cat's major enemies.
[05:00:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> you know, dogs and cars. cause it can eat either of them.
[05:00:51] <Runaway1956> BIL has had bobcats for years - crazy things are nuts in mating season though
[05:00:59] <AzumaHazuki> Hamilton looks like Buffalo Done Right, and Halifax is gorgeous. No idea if I'll ever get there. Hamilton will be enough for me
[05:01:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> so are regular old cats. they're just not big enough to care if they are.
[05:02:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> try vancouver. the western side's not quite so abysmally cold as the eastern side.
[05:02:52] <AzumaHazuki> BC's not going to be stable or affordable. poor, remember.
[05:02:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> then again, that's coming from a guy who wears 512 layers once it gets below 32F
[05:03:15] * Runaway1956 loves wool
[05:03:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> wool's good for socks n blankets. otherwise it can fuck right off.
[05:03:41] <Runaway1956> First time in Anchorage, I decided to walk into town, at 40 below zero
[05:04:02] <Runaway1956> decided quickly that I was overdressed and opened top jacket up to catch some breeze
[05:05:14] <Runaway1957> Barefoot women in Arkansas=Ringworm
[05:06:34] <Runaway1956> Aristarchus-- for repetiveness
[05:06:34] <Bender> karma - aristarchus: 3
[05:07:04] <aristarchus> party pooper
[05:08:30] <Runaway1957> If you are squatting on my username, please maintain a decent karma, m'kay?
[05:09:02] <aristarchus> be nice, and I may just do that
[05:10:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> still, canada's gotta be better than russia at least. currently watching a video where dude's pet puma with its winter coat on is like "fuck, it's too cold. let's go back in."
[05:10:00] <Runaway1957> Runaway1956 - - for ignorant moronity
[05:11:34] <Runaway1956> It's less the cold, than the wind - you can survive forever in cold, but the wind will cut you to shreds at subzero temps
[05:12:33] <Runaway1956> And, good God, DON'T EVER GET WET!! Not even sweaty wet, it'll kill you for sure
[05:12:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> wind was kicking up pretty good whitecaps on the little lake they have behind their place and ignoring the fuzzy noise killer over their camera mic
[05:15:12] -!- Runaway1957 has quit []
[05:30:15] -!- RunawayXXXX [RunawayXXXX!~a939d585@56.d7.24a5.ip0.static.sl-reverse.com] has joined #soylent
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[06:48:14] <RunawayXXXX> Runaway1956 --
[06:48:24] <RunawayXXXX> Runaway1956--
[06:48:24] <Bender> karma - runaway1956: 20
[06:48:48] <RunawayXXXX> Runaway1957++
[06:48:48] <Bender> karma - runaway1957: 1
[07:01:44] <chromas> /nick Runaway69420
[07:07:57] <RunawayXXXX> Well played, chromass! You dirty dog!
[08:37:14] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Presbyopia Correction with a Smart Phone - https://sylnt.us - If-I-have-seen-closer
[08:53:15] <c0lo> SM - that Social Media, self bondage style (*Safe* for work, but hard to unsee). Started with this: https://twitter.com
[08:53:17] <systemd> ^ 03Twitter ( https://mobile.twitter.com )
[08:53:54] <c0lo> Now it's trending hard: https://twitter.com
[08:53:55] <systemd> ^ 03Search Twitter - #TrumpMicroPenis ( https://mobile.twitter.com )
[09:00:58] <c0lo> (instigator https://twitter.com , https://twitter.com )
[09:00:59] <systemd> ^ 03Twitter ( https://mobile.twitter.com )
[09:01:00] <systemd> ^ 03Twitter ( https://mobile.twitter.com )
[09:23:11] <RunawayXXXX> See what you did there.
[09:31:45] <RunawayXXXX> Maybe that is as big as it will get?
[09:42:43] <c0lo> But... I did nothing, I'm not even having a Twitter account. 'twas an act of God.
[09:43:04] <c0lo> Besides, it seems there's nothing to see.
[09:43:24] <c0lo> (with the naked eye)
[09:55:29] <RunawayXXXX> Thank goodness!
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[13:25:59] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - The Kraken, Released Billions of Years Ago, Collided with Milky Way - https://sylnt.us - totally-unshamed-clickbaity-title
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[14:04:09] <FatPhil> pffft, didn't think much of https://www.imdb.com
[14:04:10] <systemd> ^ 03The Social Dilemma (2020) - IMDb ( https://www.imdb.com )
[14:24:21] <carny> i saw the first 20 minutes and thought there was nothing in there that we didn't already know
[14:24:47] <carny> was there anything worth watching in the rest in your opinion?
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[14:49:56] <AzumaHazuki> i'm beginning to see why and how people like tiling WMs. the learning curve is a vertical cliff but there's some serious potential here
[14:53:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> sure, if you don't like windmills. planet hater.
[14:54:16] <AzumaHazuki> vot, blin
[14:59:57] <carny> https://www.youtube.com
[15:00:00] <systemd> ^ 03Data Analysts: Stolen votes confirmed by voters themselves
[15:02:50] <Bytram> and if there were 100 stolen votes out of the 140+ million cast? There are going to be mistakes/problems. But, so vanishingly few that it would not affect the outcome.
[15:04:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, unsupportable statement. there's no way to test.
[15:04:50] <Bytram> I suspect even 100,000 mistabulated votes would not make a difference in the outcome... and here they are quibbling over a hundreds or a couple thousands, at most, in any jurisdiction.
[15:05:04] <Bytram> it's called an audit
[15:05:08] <AzumaHazuki> https://twitter.com
[15:05:09] <systemd> ^ 03Twitter ( https://mobile.twitter.com )
[15:05:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> actually, tens of thousands would flip the victor this time around, properly placed.
[15:05:32] <Bytram> ~grab TheMightyBuzzard
[15:06:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can't audit anonymous ballots, they're anonymous. you can only find grossly obvious problems.
[15:06:17] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: Lemme get this straight? Are you trying to tell me how to test?
[15:06:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm telling you you're not using your analytical testing mind on this issue.
[15:07:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> debug it. find the actual problems. there are a lot of them.
[15:08:14] <AzumaHazuki> have people suddenly forgotten all the ratfucking the GOP's done with gerrymanderng, polling place closures, removing the goddamn mailboxes, and fucking up the postal service?
[15:08:25] <AzumaHazuki> this is projection to the utmost degree from them
[15:08:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> designing a system that maintains sufficient anonymity while retaining accountability ain't easy but i kinda want to play with it now.
[15:09:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, i don't really care who wins much since i'm not fond of either. i do care that our system's a steaming pile of intentionally steaming crap.
[15:09:35] <Bytram> the ballot *contents* are anonymous. Numbered outer envelope (tracked -- by voter) containing inner envelope with the vote inside *that*. Can track that state of each ballot that was sent out and which were returned (check against vote rolls). Can compare to in-person voting (also tracked).
[15:09:37] <AzumaHazuki> yes, mostly due to GOP maneuvering, especially this election
[15:09:45] <AzumaHazuki> you don't get to just go "well it's shit, fuck it, i don't care why"
[15:10:18] <AzumaHazuki> you wanna do root-cause analysis, you need to include ALL the factors, not just the technological ones. technology is an extension of culture, nothing more. ergo...
[15:10:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> rather just design one that works.
[15:11:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> scuse me, TR is rambling at me from the kitchen. must be smoke break time again.
[15:11:56] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: I just told you how. That is the way it is done in my state. the county clerk tracks *every* ballot to ensure no loss/overages. The ballot contents -- the actual vote counting -- is tracked and handed off for a separate group to do the counting with observers
[15:12:10] <c0lo> =w End-to-end auditable voting systems
[15:12:11] <systemd> End-to-end auditable or end-to-end voter verifiable (E2E) systems are voting systems with stringent integrity properties and strong tamper resistance. - https://en.wikipedia.org
[15:12:24] <Bytram> c0lo++
[15:12:24] <Bender> karma - c0lo: 12
[15:13:27] * Bytram needs to get started on his day. afk for a while
[15:13:53] <AzumaHazuki> we're wasting time on him, IMO. this is for the benefit of anyone else who may be watching i'd say
[15:14:46] <carny> TheMightyBuzzard: it's very easy to design a good voting system
[15:15:16] <carny> but it starts with photo ids and severe penalties for producting or using fake ids
[15:15:23] <carny> and that's racist
[15:16:08] <carny> funny thing tho
[15:16:12] <c0lo> Not that easy. Voter auth is the easy step.
[15:16:44] <carny> i asked more than 30 black ppl i have worked with and every single one of them had a valid photo id
[15:17:19] <carny> even the obese guy who rode the bus so he didn't have to strain himself getting into and out of a car seat
[15:17:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, if you can't see the potential for massive fraud in your own system, you're really and truly not thinking like you do when you analyze code.
[15:18:13] <carny> the only ppl who believe the lie about photo ids being racists are dishonest democrats who want more voter fraud
[15:18:37] <carny> and huge numbers of republicans with guns are starting to figure this out
[15:18:39] <c0lo> How's the Kraken going, carny? has attack surfaces still?
[15:19:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> carny, nuff with the partisan stuff. idrgaf who's doing the fraud, i care that every fraudulent vote means some voter's legit vote got nullified.
[15:19:42] <carny> they're also starting to figure out that federalist society judges appointed by republican presidents are just as corrupt as open communists
[15:20:09] <carny> TheMightyBuzzard: well fraud is carried out by individuals acting togther in collusion
[15:20:24] <carny> and they form groups that have names
[15:20:38] <c0lo> So, you saying the kraken is dead and rotting?
[15:21:39] <carny> do you think it's a coincidence that the fraud seems to almost always benefit one party over another?
[15:21:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> don't care. want a system that prevents it as much as possible instead of what we have so whoever has to work their asses off to take anyone's vote away.
[15:22:01] <carny> if so you can't possibly do a useful investigation of the fraud and re-enfranchise those innocent voters
[15:22:29] <carny> i appreciate the idealism and i agree with your goals
[15:22:44] <c0lo> Do you still think there's voting fraud?
[15:22:50] <carny> the problem is if this fraudulent election is allowed to stand there won't be any more valid elections
[15:22:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> ima code monkey. i see a flawed system, i want to write one that's not flawed.
[15:23:07] <carny> so all your work will be pointless
[15:23:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, there's ALWAYS voting fraud.
[15:23:19] <AzumaHazuki> c0lo: you are replying to trolls and sociopaths here. just so you know.
[15:23:30] <c0lo> Proof, TMB?
[15:23:54] <AzumaHazuki> guarangoddamntee you if Dump had won this one there wouldn't be a peep of complaint out of them
[15:24:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> zumi, this is something i've been bitching about for decades
[15:25:15] <c0lo> (carny's ignoring my attempts to continue a discussion on attack surfaces he started a few days ago. Maybe he's totally consumed by fraud)
[15:25:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> i know you're young but google up "diebold voting machine scandal"
[15:26:01] <AzumaHazuki> yes, i know all about Diebold. their ATMs are secure and their machines aren't
[15:26:07] <c0lo> Ah, tMB, it's Diebolt forever, no escape.
[15:26:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> the shiny new ones aren't really any better.
[15:26:32] <AzumaHazuki> you make the mistake that jut because i'm about a decade younger than you i'm somehow ill-informed or naive. based on your past behavior I'd say that's not only wrong, but reversed
[15:26:42] <c0lo> Proof, TMB?
[15:26:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> of course you would
[15:27:15] <AzumaHazuki> well, yes, because based on observation it's the truth. you don't seem to understand how other human beings function and this informs your decisions and life choies. poorly.
[15:27:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, the shiny new ones rely on a paper trail, yes? ink on paper isn't especially difficult to come by.
[15:28:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> says the woman who's been wrong about every assumption she has made about me.
[15:28:10] <c0lo> You mean, inl on paper only is not better than Diebolt?
[15:28:25] <c0lo> s/inl/ink/
[15:28:25] <SedBot> <c0lo> You mean, ink on paper only is not better than Diebolt?
[15:28:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, slightly less shitty is still shitty.
[15:29:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> so, zumi, why are you arguing?
[15:29:22] <c0lo> so, when you add a scanner, it becomes shitty, right?
[15:29:50] <c0lo> From less shitty to shitty.
[15:30:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, no. when you don't design it with an adversarial mindset you get shitty, period.
[15:30:53] <AzumaHazuki> mostly for sociological curiosity, Uzzard. you're like a continual, walking trainwreck and i'm a bit of a rubbernecker. it's like "what will he stoop to next?"
[15:31:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> right now you're arguing against me thinking about designing a voting system with actual fraud minimization. why?
[15:32:16] <c0lo> TMB, I posted the link to E2E auditable voting systems above. Search around the internet for other info.
[15:32:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, seen it. it's shit.
[15:32:51] <AzumaHazuki> because your approach is flawed from the start. you are not taking into account the sociological factors (but how can you? you're a sociopath) and c0lo is proposing better solutions with what already exists
[15:32:55] <c0lo> It's not like you'd be the first to think about it.
[15:33:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> zumi, bullshit.
[15:33:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> you're either trolling or kneejerk arguing.
[15:33:58] <AzumaHazuki> nope. truth, clear as daylight. you are not taking into account the social end of this. all the tech in the world won't help here. you cannot solve moral problems with technology
[15:34:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> get specific or stfu
[15:35:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> cause right now you could s/social/meteorological/ and make as much sense.
[15:35:22] <AzumaHazuki> simple: you're not covering the ways of making sure the system can't get subverted in its interactions with other parts of the way the US voting process works
[15:35:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> how do you know?
[15:35:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> i haven't laid my shit out because i haven't even thought most of it up yet.
[15:36:02] <AzumaHazuki> no matter how technologically advanced and airtight the actual voting tech is, there are ontologically-prior problems that aren't being solved
[15:36:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> so you're arguing against assumptions.
[15:36:39] <AzumaHazuki> a system that just takes the underlying problems for granted and does nothing to address them just amplifies them. it's exactly like social media. we didn't get smarter or better-connected or happier. we just got more tribal.
[15:37:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> again, specifics or stfu
[15:37:28] <AzumaHazuki> gladly: gerrymandering, the ability of the current admin to fuck with the ballot-CASTING process, and the electoral college
[15:37:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> right now all you're saying is "there are problems you're not taking into account!" without even knowing what i'm taking into account at all
[15:38:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> outside the scope of what i'm interested in.
[15:38:07] <AzumaHazuki> so your solution takes ratfuckery, gerrymandering, and deliberate disenfranchisement efforts into account? i doubt that. not unless you're suggesting Aussie-style mandatory voting
[15:38:37] <AzumaHazuki> then your solution will be useless, no matter how elegant and pretty and airtight it is.
[15:38:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm interested in designing a system that doesn't suck ass, not fixing all the world's woes.
[15:39:14] <AzumaHazuki> your scope is too small. ALL voting systems will suck unacceptable amounts of ass until the underlying sociological issues are fixed
[15:39:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, so you're saying that because there will always be problems of some sort it's stupid to try and fix anything?
[15:39:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> go to work. you're being a fucking idiot just to argue.
[15:39:58] <AzumaHazuki> no. i'm saying fix the problems as much as possible first. until you do that, ANY system you design will be built on those problems as a set of bedrock assumptions and merely carry them forward
[15:40:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> you fix them, they're not interesting to me.
[15:40:44] <AzumaHazuki> then your project is doomed from the start. if it starts from the assumption that these problems are immutable and inevitable, all it will do is amplify and perpetuate them
[15:41:10] <AzumaHazuki> i'm sorry you're too much of a sociopathic trainwreck to understand people :/
[15:41:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, my project will do what it's designed to do. fixing all of society's ills is not what it's designed to do.
[15:41:50] <AzumaHazuki> but no, no it won't. if these SPECIFIC societal ills are not fixed, all your project will do (indeed, all it's designed to do) is perpetuate them
[15:42:01] <AzumaHazuki> you'll have a very accurate amplifier of said problems
[15:42:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> but you can't help disagree with me on anything i say. can't say if it's a reflex or a very stupid hobby.
[15:42:22] <AzumaHazuki> say something not at odds with human nature and all reality and i'll agree with you :)
[15:42:44] <c0lo> make a team, you two. 'Zumi will fix the societal problems, TMB finds a technical solution nobody has thought about it.
[15:42:45] <AzumaHazuki> i mean if you say the sky's blue on a clear day i'm not going to say it's orange with green paisley just because it's you saying it's blue
[15:42:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> then you design the part of the system that fixes them. i'm not interested in doing so.
[15:43:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> pretty sure you would.
[15:43:16] <AzumaHazuki> unfortunately, fixing or mitigating those problems to a significant degree is a prerequisite for your systems to be useful
[15:43:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> most likely you'd pull up a weather map and bitch that it's cloudy in london
[15:43:53] <AzumaHazuki> you're trying to design a better crypto algorithm and i'm pointing out that the architecture you're targeting has known, exploitable side-channel bugs
[15:44:00] <AzumaHazuki> to use an analogy
[15:44:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> nope, my system will do what it's meant to do. provide for accurate accountability of voting while maintaining anonymity.
[15:44:56] <c0lo> Or one "fixes" the voting system and trust is restored enough for the people to look into the societal problens instead of bitching how fraudy the voting is.
[15:45:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> that's all it's meant to do. i don't feel the desire to go beat my head against the wall for every problem the nation has but i can absolutely do this.
[15:45:29] <AzumaHazuki> no doubt you can, but it will not serve a useful purpose until it's placed in a milieu where it can be trusted
[15:45:47] <AzumaHazuki> what does it matter how accurate the counts are if big chunks of people are prevented from voting to begin with?
[15:45:59] <AzumaHazuki> or if some peoples' votes count more than others due to the electoral college?
[15:46:08] <c0lo> Don't forget to publish your solution, TMB. We wouldn't like to see your lifetime wasted.
[15:46:09] <AzumaHazuki> you just get a very accurate count of how fucked up things are
[15:46:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> it can absolutely be trusted to do what it's supposed to. but it's not supposed to fix gerrymandering. no voting system can because that's not part of voting systems.
[15:46:16] <AzumaHazuki> c0lo: too late, LOL
[15:46:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, no time spent doing something that interests you is wasted.
[15:47:45] <c0lo> And, TMB, don't forget power outages in your solution.
[15:48:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> i don't think they'd help. mandatory naps before voting might though.
[15:48:33] <AzumaHazuki> ...guys. guys. i found a solution. it's called...you ready for this? pen, paper, standardized ballot forms, and boxes. with motha'fuckin' LOCKS on them
[15:48:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> still trying to figure out how to work fishing in
[15:48:44] <c0lo> Mandatory? Isn't that tyrrrannnyyy?
[15:48:49] <AzumaHazuki> LOL
[15:49:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, nobody could possibly game a system as awesome as a box.
[15:49:27] <AzumaHazuki> you have to admit, they're a lot less open to hacking :D
[15:49:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> not at all. wood is extremely open to hacking.
[15:50:26] <AzumaHazuki> but for real: WE HAVE A SOLUTION already. Scantron forms with point-of-vote verification and collection of physical forms, securely stored, so they can be audited and matched up. there is no need for anything more complex and sure as HELL no need for an internet connection
[15:50:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> "securely stored" is an assumption.
[15:51:01] <AzumaHazuki> at that point, any further problems are sociological, not technical. and yes, it is. but that, too, is largely sociological
[15:51:09] <AzumaHazuki> and since you said you're not interested in that bit...
[15:51:18] <c0lo> 'zumi, paper and locks is basic. If one throws a Molotov cocktail in a counting room, tens or hundred of thousant voters are disenfranchised.
[15:51:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> honest poll workers is an assumption.
[15:52:01] <c0lo> (backup and redundant copies)
[15:52:12] <AzumaHazuki> c0lo, true. that's the basic form of it. i'd want the ballots getting redun--yeah
[15:52:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> of the poll workers? that's what kids are for, ain't it?
[15:53:30] <c0lo> (don't play the fool, TMB, there are risks in it)
[15:53:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> either way, the nonsense you were arguing is akin to saying it's stupid to put locks on your door when you have glass in your windows.
[15:54:19] <AzumaHazuki> in a way it kind of is. a lock on the door is better than no lock, but it's only going to keep out the lazy, stupid, weak, and hasty
[15:54:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, hi, have we met? the day i can't make a dumb joke is the day i quit talking and go fishing.
[15:54:55] <AzumaHazuki> i don't think he's playing c0lo...
[15:55:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> true but you can't have a solution that does not include a lock
[15:56:21] <AzumaHazuki> right. but don't imply a lock alone is enough
[15:56:26] <c0lo> Where do you put the lock and what it locks, TMB? That's as important as the lock. See https://xkcd.com
[15:56:26] <systemd> ^ 03Voting Machines
[15:56:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> never did
[15:56:57] <AzumaHazuki> for home security in-depth you'd want several very specific locks, bars on the windows (and there's an aesthetics/cost/security triple tradeoff here...), some monitoring systems...
[15:57:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> it'll solve the problem it's designed to, not every problem you come up with.
[15:58:17] <c0lo> With enough simplification, every problem has an elegant solution, right?
[15:58:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, thanks for distracting me long enough that a nap is becoming more imperative than going to the grocery store. i hate going to the grocery store.
[15:59:01] <c0lo> Uber eats...
[15:59:08] <c0lo> (you don't)
[15:59:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, violence, duct tape, or wd-40
[15:59:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> solve pretty much anything, you just may not like how.
[15:59:49] <AzumaHazuki> solutions do not exist in vacuum, that's the point
[16:00:02] <c0lo> Extinction... the final solution, right? (large grin)
[16:00:06] <AzumaHazuki> if you're too damn autistic or ADHD to deal with the big picture just say so. no one will hold that against you.
[16:00:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> so you solve the other problems. i like designing door locks.
[16:00:19] <AzumaHazuki> but stop pretending a door lock is the be all and end all
[16:00:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> never did. said the exact opposite.
[16:00:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> repeatedly
[16:00:50] <AzumaHazuki> your solution is useless without the proper context, unfortunately
[16:00:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> you're the one insisting anything must be a comprehensive solution to life, the universe, and everything to matter at all.
[16:01:01] <c0lo> Door lock for a glass house in which everybody plays with loose bricks.
[16:01:06] <AzumaHazuki> indeed
[16:01:46] <c0lo> 'zumi, now... if everybody would just sit and sing kumbaya...
[16:02:09] * TheMightyBuzzard would be the one yelling freebird at the guitarist
[16:02:12] <c0lo> ('70-ies were nice. Smoky, though)
[16:02:12] <AzumaHazuki> yeah, that's never going to happen. but we can give people more of a reason to "buy in"
[16:02:40] <AzumaHazuki> and one way to do that is to get rid of the electoral college. it's a hackish, evil compromise (in both senses) along the lines of the 3/5 clause
[16:02:53] <AzumaHazuki> ranked-choice voting is another good idea
[16:03:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, it does exactly what it was supposed to do. without it there would have been no united states.
[16:03:33] <AzumaHazuki> at the time it may have been the least-bad solution (which i dispute anyway)
[16:03:36] <c0lo> Give "reasons" to the guys rioting on the street or blowing up buildings? Really?
[16:03:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> it still is
[16:03:47] <c0lo> Every circle has a fringe.
[16:04:01] <AzumaHazuki> c0lo: yes. these people do what they do because they believe they are disenfranchised and no one will listen to them otherwise
[16:04:29] <AzumaHazuki> this is also why Trump won the first time: the Democrats have abandoned poor white people since at least 1996, more like 1980
[16:04:36] <c0lo> Nope. Every... circle... has... a... fringe.
[16:04:48] <AzumaHazuki> well, yeah, you'll never make everyone 100% happy
[16:05:11] <AzumaHazuki> but direct popular vote and ranked choice voting mean 1) everyone's vote has equal weight and 2) no one's vote is truly wasted
[16:05:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, you're not wrong there but there was a significant element of "enough of business as usual bullshit"
[16:05:38] <AzumaHazuki> "business as usual bullshit" includes "Democrats ignoring poor white people for 25-40 years"
[16:06:01] <c0lo> In any non-trivial groups, you'll have enough crazy malcontents willing to blow something up.
[16:06:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> zumi, we are not one nation, despite the pledge. we are 50 states. called such because of the meaning of state in every other geopolitical context.
[16:06:37] <AzumaHazuki> I am one of those poor white people. I also know, though, that gaps in wealth and money trump racial disparities by a large margin. i have more in common with a poor black woman than a wealthy white woman, because we are poor
[16:06:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, i'm pretty content but i still like blowing stuff up
[16:07:15] <c0lo> TMB, I fail to see what "nationship" has to do with it.
[16:07:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> just my own stuff that i'm finished with.
[16:07:43] <c0lo> Malcontent is still a form of content.
[16:07:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, because in a union of states, it makes zero sense for anyone who isn't one of the largest to remain in the union.
[16:08:03] <AzumaHazuki> c0lo: he's another American exceptionalist. Every time someone points out that, for example, Canada or Norway does X Y and Z better, his respone is "fuck that, this is America." As if we exist in a vacuum, or are geopolitically invincible
[16:08:05] <c0lo> Like in "I'm at peace with me. But not with you.
[16:08:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> you're never going to have any say in your fate, it will always be dictated by those outside your borders.
[16:09:04] <c0lo> TMB: tell me more when China starts using their military.
[16:09:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> zumi, i don't care if they do it better if how they accomplish it is immoral.
[16:09:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, happily. patrick henry ftw.
[16:09:54] <c0lo> Imoral? Nothing more imoral than thinking yourself as exceptional.
[16:10:04] <AzumaHazuki> he means all taxes, always, everywhere, are theft 9_9
[16:10:06] <c0lo> It's lying to yourself.
[16:10:32] <AzumaHazuki> unless it's "necessary evil" like the military. because, uh...we...um, need a military to protect our shredded social safety net dystopia. or something.
[16:10:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, i happen to think we are pretty exceptional but i think that for specific reasons not as a blanket statement applicable to any detailed comparison.
[16:11:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> zumi, i also think we could fund the feds without compulsory taxation of our citizens.
[16:11:39] <c0lo> You're just differen, TMB, nothing exceptonal in this.
[16:11:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> your opinion. i disagree.
[16:11:59] <c0lo> And I'mnot sure you are different in a good way.
[16:12:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> then don't move here. i won't make you.
[16:12:53] <c0lo> Oh, wow. Thanks for the tip.
[16:13:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> but i'm going to keep on thinking the bits about us i like are good and the bits i don't are bad. i don't give a rat's ass what someone in finland thinks about US domestic policy.
[16:14:11] <AzumaHazuki> this seems to be a sore spot with you
[16:14:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> if they have an idea i like, i'm happy to use it, but they don't get or deserve a say.
[16:14:24] <AzumaHazuki> and it seems more emotional than rational. this is tribalism
[16:14:31] <c0lo> (TMB, if you'd just have the idea how many forner communist countries prouded themselves as exceptiona;, you might disagree less. Or maybe not, to strong headed)
[16:14:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> of course it is
[16:14:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> tribalism that is
[16:14:43] <c0lo> s/to str/too str/
[16:14:43] <SedBot> <c0lo> (TMB, if you'd just have the idea how many forner communist countries prouded themselves as exceptiona;, you might disagree less. Or maybe not, too strong headed)
[16:14:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> we are a tribe
[16:14:46] <AzumaHazuki> then why do you expect anyone to take you seriously?
[16:15:08] <AzumaHazuki> in a world like today's, where information goes 'round the planet in seconds, that kind of localized tribalism doesn't work
[16:15:14] <c0lo> I don't. But he doesn't care.
[16:15:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> the hell it don't
[16:15:47] <AzumaHazuki> yeah, it doesn't. you can't stop the flow of ideas and information and it flows worldwide now. what is a tribe but a group of people localized in noetic space?
[16:15:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, most everyone thinks they're exceptional. if they didn't they'd go somewhere else.
[16:16:11] <c0lo> Hey, 'Zumi, why to you want tMB fragile? He needs tribes and belonging to feel secure.
[16:16:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> except the whiny bitches that naturally occur in systems that grow too prosperous and comfortable.
[16:16:36] <AzumaHazuki> i want him anti-fragile. he's flaky as hell and incedibly maladaptive as he is
[16:16:46] <AzumaHazuki> he's going to break, violently, rather than bend at this rate
[16:16:58] <c0lo> Old dog, new tricks.
[16:17:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, the world's organized in tribes. always has been. it works. you're going to need to come up with a good argument if you want to change it because calling blue blue in a snarky tone isn't a good one.
[16:18:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> zumi, you assume anger where none exists. this is an academic discussion to me and i don't really give a rat's ass if you agree with me or not.
[16:18:45] <c0lo> TMB, there's a big difference between social groups and "us versus them".
[16:18:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> this is still america and you're entitled to be as wrong as you like
[16:18:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, and?
[16:19:54] <c0lo> Well, of course everybody is entited to be a wrong as they like. It's the consequences that sort it out.
[16:20:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> you're wanting us to all forego looking after our own interests in favor of what you think is right. and you're entirely unwilling to consider the flip side of that.
[16:20:21] <c0lo> Like, America is exceptional... until China is more exceptional...
[16:20:43] <c0lo> Who wants you to forgo something?
[16:21:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> you do if you think your opinion should matter on domestic policies of a tribe you are not in
[16:21:21] <c0lo> Not me. Be as exceptional as you like, just be aware there'll be consequences.
[16:21:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> you think oz isn't exceptional?
[16:22:05] <c0lo> Naaahhh, mate, I'm exceptionally convinces that my opinion doesn't matter.
[16:22:21] <c0lo> Makes it even more funny to express it.
[16:22:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> why aren't you trying to make it so then?
[16:22:31] <c0lo> Just for the fuck of it, see?
[16:22:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> ahh, fair nuff. political trolling for the keks.
[16:23:09] <AzumaHazuki> define "exceptional," actually
[16:23:17] <c0lo> Even more so, when I beleive that my opinions are correct.
[16:23:42] <c0lo> s/more so/more for keks/
[16:23:42] <SedBot> <c0lo> Even more for keks, when I beleive that my opinions are correct.
[16:23:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> my opinions are always correct. even when i change them.
[16:24:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> i mean, who goes around knowingly having an opinion they disagree with?
[16:24:21] <c0lo> Aren't we all so, TMB?
[16:24:53] <c0lo> (not a reason to see yourself exceptional for it)
[16:25:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> well, if you're a lot closer to how you think you should be than anyone else, that's doing pretty exceptionally.
[16:26:16] <c0lo> Yeah, pretty much the same when you are a lot farther.
[16:27:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> true, very different flavor of exceptional though. moose turd pie as opposed to chocolate
[16:27:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> #yt utah phillips moose turd pie
[16:27:12] <MrPlow> https://www.youtube.com -- Utah Phillips - Moose Turd Pie
[16:27:17] <c0lo> Except that the fringe of the circle is excpetionally small in size in comparison with the circke itself.
[16:27:48] <AzumaHazuki> c0lo: i dunno, i hold strong opinions but always provisionally. i'm well aware the further they get from base axioms/the less data they have, the more provisional
[16:27:56] <AzumaHazuki> always paranoid and looking for where i could be wrong
[16:28:22] <c0lo> Oh, tmb, you're exceptionally complex today. You're imaginary part has inflamed badly.
[16:29:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> none of my parts are imaginary. they all hurt too often to be.
[16:29:31] <c0lo> They call it phantom pain, they do.
[16:29:59] <AzumaHazuki> opinions are given weight by how well they relate to observable, repeatable reality though. and observable repeatable reality shows people overall happier in Canada, Norway, Denmark, etc., than the US
[16:30:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> zumi, why do you think i argue here. if someone can put up a better argument than my best, it's something worth hearing. mostly it don't happen though because i'm too good at arguing.
[16:30:23] <AzumaHazuki> so unless your summum bonum is some bizarre, unrealistic ideal of what you think liberty actually means...
[16:30:46] <AzumaHazuki> yeah, yeah, people with high INT and low WIS are good at fooling themselves. age-old problem
[16:31:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> has nothing to do with fooling yourself, it's going with the best available argument.
[16:31:48] <c0lo> So, Zumi, how much those opinions relate to the observable, when you spend all the time analyzing it on the detriment of accumulating experiences to fee your opinions with?
[16:32:01] <AzumaHazuki> c0lo: i've been through a hell of a lot
[16:32:08] * TheMightyBuzzard chuckles
[16:32:11] <c0lo> s/to fee/to feed/
[16:32:11] <SedBot> <c0lo> So, Zumi, how much those opinions relate to the observable, when you spend all the time analyzing it on the detriment of accumulating experiences to feed your opinions with?
[16:32:25] <AzumaHazuki> i know, for example, that almost half a dozen good friends would not be dead had this country a civilized approach to healthcare and economics
[16:32:59] <AzumaHazuki> and i can compare and contrast the last, say, 50 years of economic history between countries. the information is available readily
[16:33:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> you're going to lose more too. death is a fact of life and quite a lot of people go through as much as you have without getting nearly as cranky at the world.
[16:33:23] <c0lo> But you don't know the "We pretend to work, they pretend to pays us", do you?
[16:33:34] <AzumaHazuki> death doesn't bother me. i've seen dozens of people die and had no particular emotional upset
[16:33:46] <AzumaHazuki> it's unnecessary, needless death to sate endless greed that gets me
[16:33:51] <c0lo> (smoke break)
[16:34:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> funny, i've never seen anyone die and felt nothing about it. which one of us is the sociopath again?
[16:34:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, fucking brilliant idea
[16:34:59] <AzumaHazuki> 9_9 "no particular emotional upset" does not mean "no emotions at all"
[16:35:09] <AzumaHazuki> i've seen people die for whom it's a mercy. i was relieved for them
[16:35:34] <AzumaHazuki> that, barring any serious shitheadery of theirs I wasn't privy to, their suffering related to this life is over
[16:36:41] <AzumaHazuki> death is the absolute neutral zero midpoint of experience. there are far, far worse things than death. like being kept 1/4 alive wallowing in your own shit with open bedsores the size of an apple on you
[16:39:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> and yet the world is always poorer for the loss.
[16:41:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> don't take me saying things like "i could shoot a home intruder or enemy soldier in the face without hesitation" to mean i don't feel anything about it. i just know what's right and what's necessary and don't let emotions on the losing side of the equation cause hesitation.
[16:42:30] <AzumaHazuki> no, the world is not always poorer for the loss. that's pretentious middle-class bullshit along the lines of "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger"
[16:42:35] <AzumaHazuki> plenty of people are a net negative
[16:42:46] <FatPhil> which reminds me of the film I saw the other night: /Mosquito State/
[16:43:07] <FatPhil> now, which line, by whom, reminded me of that film, is up for you to ponder...
[16:43:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> nope. everyone has within them the potential to improve the world. even if they were not doing so, the loss of that potential is a shame.
[16:44:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> even if the loss of the kinetic is absolutely justified and necessary.
[16:44:01] <c0lo> (a pity I won't get to watch it downunder)
[16:44:15] <FatPhil> But for some the incentives to improve things for others are negative, so it will never happen.
[16:44:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> c0lo, plenty of video from downunder on japanese sites.
[16:44:30] <FatPhil> "potential" is a fantasy concept
[16:44:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> FatPhil, well of course it is
[16:45:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> but it's one action from being reality.
[16:45:37] <c0lo> (not enough world cinema downunder. And I'm too old and lazy to scour for torrentz)
[16:45:38] <FatPhil> but one that requires an incentive
[16:46:01] <AzumaHazuki> indeed. and way, way, way too many people are incentivized NOT to
[16:46:20] <FatPhil> c0lo: not sure it will ever hit torrent sites, it's a bit "film festival"-ey. Saw it at a film festival, obvs.
[16:46:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> requires something.
[16:47:00] <c0lo> FatPhil, so it's "promise" and "rule of law" and heaps of other things that humans use (so == potential)
[16:47:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> anyway. nuff fucking around with you lot. im go actually be productive for a little bit before nap time.
[16:47:35] <c0lo> This doesn't stop them using the words like they have meaning.
[16:48:02] <c0lo> The moment Uber eats and TMB naps has arrived.
[16:48:13] <FatPhil> c0lo: rewatch Aronofsky /Pi/ and then Cronenberg's /The Fly/, and then 30s of any Peter Greenaway movie that involves food.
[16:48:25] <FatPhil> Which does not include /A Zed and Two Noughts/
[16:48:34] <FatPhil> (sorry, spoilers)
[16:48:37] <c0lo> FatPhil - unpossible.
[16:48:46] <AzumaHazuki> https://imgur.com there we go :) I even wrote a Waybar module for MOC, similar to the one for MPD that's displayed. this is starting to come together
[16:48:46] <systemd> ^ 03imgur.com
[16:49:11] <FatPhil> you've not seen /Pi/??!?!? Freaking awesome, one of the only movies I've seen twice for $$$
[16:50:20] <c0lo> (I think I watched Pi before coming downunder. Some vague memories about digging through the skull with a drill, was it?)
[16:51:32] <c0lo> (if that was it, I had a pirate copy with a very lossy compression on 600-something MB on a CD)
[16:51:43] <FatPhil> AzumaHazuki: since I've started to pretend to grow up and actually plan for my future I've started to break things down into cold, hard, unthinking, uncaring, mechanistic principles, and every time human interaction is required I just look at one thing - incentives.
[16:52:18] <AzumaHazuki> sad, huh? but it seems that's what we come down to.
[16:52:31] <c0lo> Yeap, that was it https://en.wikipedia.org(film)
[16:52:32] <systemd> ^ 03Pi (film) - Wikipedia
[16:53:07] <FatPhil> which I think is one reason I didn't like /The Social Dilemma/, as it was so obviously describing a heavy stone rolling down a steep hill. Everyone can predict this. Why make a movie about it?
[16:53:47] <carny> FatPhil: some people are successfully resisting
[16:54:06] <carny> for example parents who keep their kids away from all screens until age 3 or 4
[16:54:15] <FatPhil> :)
[16:54:15] <c0lo> Successful? Resisting?
[16:55:46] <FatPhil> As we watched the movie both g/f and I said "I think my brain's broken - I don't get a seratonin kick from that, that actually annoys me"
[16:57:19] <c0lo> This was only 9 years ago, the girl is likely taking selfies today: https://www.youtube.com
[16:57:21] <systemd> ^ 03A Magazine Is an iPad That Does Not Work.m4v
[16:58:28] <c0lo> (resisting? Ha!)
[17:04:14] <carny> FatPhil: the tricky thing about self exploration of neurochemistry is that it's very hard to recognize effectful results
[17:04:44] <carny> because they affect the parts of your brain that let you recognize effects ;]
[17:14:12] <c0lo> So? Don't use "self exploration of neurochemistry".
[17:16:31] <AzumaHazuki> does he mean drugs? because it sounds like he means drugs
[17:18:51] <AzumaHazuki> hm, wanna see something here...
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[17:24:43] <FatPhil> carny: we're watching Sapolsky's lecture series on topics related to neurochemistry presently, I'm sure my attitude to what I witness in myself and others will change by the time we're at the end.
[17:36:05] <FatPhil> I'll tell you one thing for free, this 10% Hungarian braggot with cherry and vanilla is stimulating all the right receptors in my neuroblobs. (technical medical term)
[17:37:17] <FatPhil> however, the *3* pub dogs are freaking out of control tonight.
[17:55:14] <AzumaHazuki> first snowfall of the year here. this is a good few days for stew. i've got barley and chicken, will go get mushrooms, carrot, and celery. later
[17:55:29] <Runaway1956> Uggh - printers
[17:55:43] <Runaway1956> need ink? Expensive, just buy a new cheap-ass printer
[17:56:13] <Runaway1956> I hate that idiot routine - now we have one more stupid bit of circuitry to dispose of, but no one recycles this shit
[17:57:09] <Runaway1956> and if anyone needs the advice, never go to canon.usa for drivers and stuff, go to canon-europe
[17:57:34] <FatPhil> ach! what are you Okies such sugar fiends?!?
[17:59:39] <FatPhil> n.d. Prairie (Oklahoma) Weekend.
[18:00:38] <FatPhil> pastry stout, sugar and booze. not sure why anyone over the age of 10 would like this.
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[18:01:43] <chromas> Looks like I missed the AM BM.
[18:02:18] * chromas imagines a three-way between Zumi, TMB and Runaway
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[18:05:28] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Underground Test of Gravity-Related Wave Function Collapse Rules Out Diósi–Penrose Model. - https://sylnt.us - if-not-this-then-what
[18:05:43] <FatPhil> I've seen enough tarentino movies to know how that will end
[18:06:31] <chromas> Someone says "nigger" a lot and everybody dies?
[18:07:35] <Runaway1956> dammit, now my printer doesn't talk American, it talks English
[18:08:03] <Runaway1956> I'll have to suffer with it . . .
[18:08:39] <Runaway1956> and it only took two cups of coffee after Dear Wife pried my ass out of bed
[18:11:31] <chromas> "Oi cunt, yer inks are low!"
[18:20:31] <carny> isn't there some kind of inkjet printer that uses big generic tanks of ink?
[18:29:50] <AzumaHazuki> Epson Eco series
[18:46:56] <carny> it looks like several brands are doing it now
[18:48:12] <carny> these look like slightly larger ink cartridges and they probably all have the same anti-consumer chips in them to keep you from filling them yourself
[18:54:47] <chromas> People still use inkjets?
[19:07:24] <AzumaHazuki> there, stew's on. yummy healthy deliciousness in T minus 35m or so
[19:09:21] <carny> chromas: lasers are expensive
[19:11:53] <chromas> Grayscale lasers are as cheap as $100 plus they have LED color printers now
[19:12:56] <chromas> stew++
[19:12:56] <Bender> karma - stew: 3
[19:52:54] <AzumaHazuki> nailed it. this stew is awesome, and i've got lunch for 3 more days too
[19:53:17] <AzumaHazuki> can't believe this weekend is almost over though holy hell
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[21:04:24] <Bytram> whereto? http://feedproxy.google.com
[21:04:25] <systemd> ^ 03Charli D'Amelio first person to hit 100 million TikTok followers ( https://www.cnet.com )
[21:35:35] <carny> chromas: but the per page cost for lasers are much higher otherise i'd agree with you
[21:35:53] <carny> the quality of color lasers is excellent
[21:35:56] <chromas> wat
[21:36:04] <chromas> toner lasts forever
[21:36:19] <carny> not the yellow drum ;]
[21:36:21] <AzumaHazuki> it takes a long time to break even for color
[21:36:34] <carny> and the developer drum is much more expensive than toner
[21:36:52] <carny> you know the deal with yellow ink and toner right?
[21:39:50] <chromas> ink is also pretty goddamn expensive, plus toner doesn't clod up your nozzles when you don't print for a week
[22:58:14] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - GitHub Revamps Copyright Takedown Policy After Restoring YouTube-dl - https://sylnt.us
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[23:29:48] <Runaway1956> https://youtu.be
[23:29:51] <systemd> ^ 03Florida man wrestles puppy from jaws of alligator ( https://www.youtube.com )
[23:31:00] <Runaway1956> he's luck Mama Gator didn't intervene on Baby Gator's behalf