#soylent | Logs for 2020-10-01

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[00:21:56] <SoyCow1188> =cite https://ieeexplore.ieee.org
[00:21:57] <systemd> Journal Reference: FakeCatcher: Detection of Synthetic Portrait Videos using Biological Signals - IEEE Journals & Magazine, <cite></cite> (DOI: <a href="https://doi.org/https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9141516">https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9141516</a>)
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[00:56:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> #submit https://www.coindesk.com It does my heart good to see the Great American Middle Finger in action.
[00:56:13] <MrPlow> Submitting. There is a mandatory delay, please be patient.
[00:56:38] <MrPlow> Submission successful. https://soylentnews.org
[01:04:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> https://notthebee.com
[01:04:05] <systemd> ^ 03NBA player Hassan Whiteside tweets "F America, I'm moving to Hawaii" 😂
[01:04:58] <AzumaHazuki> yyyyeah, uh...
[01:05:13] <AzumaHazuki> well, this is why he plays basketball for a living instead of, for example, teaching geography
[01:05:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> still, das some funny shit
[01:06:13] <AzumaHazuki> i can't even laugh at that. fucking overpaid ball-bouncing manchildren. why the fuck do we pay these idiots so much?
[01:07:47] <chromas> Dunno. Last I heard, college sports were better than the NBA/NFL/Nwhatever leagues
[01:08:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> supply and demand.
[01:08:36] <chromas> With artificially limited supply, kinda like diamonds
[01:08:49] <chromas> Hm, and both involved exploiting black people.
[01:08:53] <chromas> s/ed//
[01:08:54] <SedBot> <chromas> Hm, and both involv exploiting black people.
[01:09:06] <chromas> s/.*/derp/
[01:09:06] <SedBot> <chromas> derp
[01:09:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, their talent's legitimately that rare, so they oughta be making a fair percentage of the industry's profits. that don't mean i think the industry warrants those kinds of profits, mind you.
[01:10:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> but lotsa folks do and they're the ones getting ads sold to them, not me.
[01:10:44] <AzumaHazuki> no one should be making that kind of money, but no idiot sportsball player should be making more than, to pick a number, 10x what a teacher does
[01:11:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> get folks to value their children more than they value watching sports. this one's entirely on the american people not corporate anything.
[01:12:34] <AzumaHazuki> oh, it's on both. or is someone who constantly enables a drunkard or drug addict themselves free of blame?
[01:12:40] <requerdanos> what about a smart sportsball player?
[01:13:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> if they're not pushing it on them? yes.
[01:13:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> everyone's responsible for their own choices
[01:13:44] <requerdanos> complicity is a choice, right?
[01:13:54] * TheMightyBuzzard shurgs
[01:14:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> different flavor of blame
[01:14:09] <AzumaHazuki> yeah, i kind of expected that answer out of you
[01:14:12] <requerdanos> not equal, no, but still a choice.
[01:14:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> not a shared blame, different source.
[01:14:45] * AzumaHazuki finds it absolutely hilarious when atheists push an exact copy of hardcore Christian apologists' ideas about libertarian free will, is all
[01:15:11] <requerdanos> hardcore atheist christian apologists? lost my simple soul there, sorry
[01:15:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> you have no idea what you're talking about, zuma
[01:15:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> personal responsibility has nothing to do with religion. it's older.
[01:16:03] <AzumaHazuki> there's a key and usually hidden assumption in Christian (Abrahamic, really) apologia that humans have "libertarian free will" that in all circumstances has an essential kernel that is never, and indeed may never *be,* compromised
[01:16:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, right. briefly forgot you like blaming other people for your woes. carry on with that and ignore me.
[01:16:49] <AzumaHazuki> this is at odds with what neuroscience knows about how the brain works, but libertarians and a certain type of Christian apologist both have it as a plank in their platforms that this is the case
[01:17:01] <requerdanos> and you believe that it (should|shouldn't) be the exclusve domain of such?
[01:17:19] <AzumaHazuki> see, this is a case in point. whenever someone points out that reality is different, they go "yeah yeah you just don't want to take responsibility." Which is a strawman and is NOT what is being said
[01:17:33] <AzumaHazuki> but apologists, and libertarians in general, don't handle nuance well. or facts :)
[01:17:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes, it most certainly is.
[01:18:08] <requerdanos> one would hope that apologists handle their facts well, or poor apologists they would be (off the main topic, I know)
[01:18:16] <AzumaHazuki> no it bloody well isn't. what is being said is that there is not the kind of perfect, 100% control over the self you believe there is, largely because "the self" is not unified as we like to think
[01:18:41] <AzumaHazuki> i've mentioned split brain patients before, but you just plug your ears and go "blah blah argument to authority"
[01:18:43] <requerdanos> Does that mean that people are/should not be responsible for their choices
[01:18:53] <AzumaHazuki> absolutely not, and that's a strawman
[01:18:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> which is an excuse. you don't make excuses if you're willing to take responsibility for yourself.
[01:19:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> but you never have been. you always blame someone. always.
[01:19:14] <chromas> Wrong, Buzz! We need to artificially restrict incomes of certain jobs for the greater good
[01:19:15] <requerdanos> I am not trying to build a strawman, just trying to unravel the meaning
[01:19:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> chromas, we already do that around here
[01:19:25] <AzumaHazuki> you are, he isn't
[01:19:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> that's because i already know you're doing mental gymnastics to keep your world view from falling apart
[01:19:50] <AzumaHazuki> he's just being a pain in the ass. notably he goes nuts whenever this comes up, which means it's a core plank of his worldview and everything would be in danger if it were ever disturbed
[01:19:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's not like it's anything but obvious
[01:20:18] <requerdanos> Looks more like differing viewpoints from here.
[01:20:24] * AzumaHazuki sets the carrion-molester on ignore for a bit to speak with requerdanos
[01:20:25] * chromas implements a bass tax
[01:20:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> woot!
[01:21:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> i love it when they admit defeat
[01:21:17] <AzumaHazuki> anyway, requerdanos: the unified self isn't strict reality. it's an emergent phenomenon, meaning it's real but not the whole or base story. split-brain patients, whose corpus callosums (callosi?) have been severed, are the best illustration we have
[01:21:17] <chromas> #BlockedByStev—IMeanZumi
[01:21:25] <nutherguy> Carrion molester? Show us on the doll where TMB touched you 'zumi.
[01:21:29] <AzumaHazuki> some truly bizarre phenomena have been uncovered when working on these people
[01:21:38] <AzumaHazuki> they literally appear to be of two minds
[01:22:12] <AzumaHazuki> then there's all the bizarre stuff that happens when the right hemisphere isn't properly suppressed. then there's the MPD cases, which *still* blow my mind
[01:22:14] <requerdanos> the self is an emergent phenomenon and a real thing, but not "the" real thing, okay, but it's the only real thing we are aware of.
[01:22:28] <AzumaHazuki> day to day, yes...until we start probing a bit
[01:22:38] <chromas> Do people still use MPD?
[01:22:49] * chromas 's been using Juk
[01:22:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, it's DID nowadays
[01:22:55] <requerdanos> even in mpd cases, it's all that each personality seems to be aware of from what I have read
[01:23:04] <AzumaHazuki> the upshot of all this is that even the unified self isn't as in control as some people like to think...or, in cases of people like Uzzard there, need to think in order to maintain their worldviews
[01:23:16] <AzumaHazuki> willpower is a finite resource
[01:23:18] <requerdanos> each knowing only their own self (or selfslice as the case may be)
[01:23:51] <AzumaHazuki> but see, all of this is "argument to authority, lrn2argyew" from that idiot whenever I bring these things up. he has A Narrative (TM) and is clinging to it for dear life
[01:23:52] <chromas> Bringing systemd into it now?
[01:24:03] <chromas> systemctl restart me.slice
[01:24:26] <AzumaHazuki> and none of this implies lack of responsibility for one's actions, just that people aren't magically 100% logical and rational robots
[01:24:37] <requerdanos> so. self-control is not "sudo systemctl perform-action self"
[01:24:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> neato, joe recovers the turnover: https://notthebee.com
[01:24:51] <systemd> ^ 03Famed quarterback Joe Montana still has the moves, rescues grandchild from kidnapper
[01:25:09] <requerdanos> I am nowhere near 100% logical nor rational, but I strive for self-control
[01:25:29] <requerdanos> for example, today I ate a bite of donut instead of 6 donuts.
[01:26:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, that's the entire point. nobody is perfect but if you don't at least make the attempt, you're worthless garbage.
[01:26:07] <chromas> What'd you do with the other 5½ donuts?
[01:26:17] <requerdanos> gave them away
[01:26:25] <chromas> >:(
[01:26:25] <AzumaHazuki> the point is, part and parcel of Uzzard's worldview is this perfect, inviolable, 100% logical and rational kernel that can't be swayed by outside forces to any significant degree. Apologists hold to this too
[01:26:31] <AzumaHazuki> it's a holdover of the Platonic soul idea
[01:26:37] * TheMightyBuzzard laughs
[01:27:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> me: nobody's perfect, her two seconds later: he thinks everyone is perfect
[01:27:05] <AzumaHazuki> now empirical evidence disproves this idea even before we start messing with the brain directly, but he refuses to acknowledge reality because he'd have to change his worldview
[01:27:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> which is why i win
[01:27:10] <chromas> That's Kernal; he's running a 6502
[01:27:17] <nutherguy> So, we have here a thesis on split personalities? Fek.
[01:27:34] <requerdanos> the split personalities are merely an interesting side thing
[01:27:43] <AzumaHazuki> don't worry Runaway, you don't have any personality at all so this doesn't concern you
[01:27:58] <AzumaHazuki> go back to agitating for civil war 2.0, just throw your jizzsocks in the hamper when you're done
[01:28:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> yup, defective hardware can not be used to make a point about non-defective hardware
[01:28:11] <nutherguy> You can fix split personalities with an axe - if you can just measure the proper angle at which to separate the two
[01:28:38] <requerdanos> I am pretty sure that you can't split personalities with an axe because their shapes overlap.
[01:28:40] <chromas> Sounds like an axhole thing to do
[01:28:44] * Bytram prefers to split infinitives
[01:28:58] <requerdanos> then wouldn't you say "to infinitives split"?
[01:29:12] <AzumaHazuki> to boldly split infinitives no man has split before!
[01:29:50] <requerdanos> okay, so does this brain knowledge apply to basketball players, addicts, both, or neither?
[01:30:07] <chromas> Just fishermen
[01:30:11] <chromas> or in some cases, fishers of men
[01:30:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, no. simple solution for those kinds of things and ending with a preposition.
[01:30:27] <nutherguy> basketball players are just a figment of your imagination: There is no basket.
[01:30:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> sentence you were planning on saying, asshole.
[01:30:40] <AzumaHazuki> everyone. this appears to be a uniform feature of H. sapiens (and probably Uzzard too =P)
[01:30:58] <requerdanos> I suppose I meant locally, not universally.
[01:31:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> https://babylonbee.com
[01:31:13] <systemd> ^ 03CNN Pre-Debate Poll Shows Biden Clearly Won Debate
[01:31:24] <requerdanos> like the old saying, "Great Minds Think Alike (And So Do We)"
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[01:32:14] <chromas> I finally found this rad casemod again http://images.bit-tech.net
[01:32:16] <AzumaHazuki> the tl;dr of this is that Buzztard here uses a simplistic and *wrong* model of the human mind in order to justify his utter sociopathy...and it's hilariously Calvinist for an atheist :D
[01:32:25] <chromas> Remember when case mods were a thing?
[01:32:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> "With such a clear and decisive win, there’s really no reason to even have the debate. That would only distract from how great Biden is doing. And ruin his naps."
[01:32:50] <requerdanos> tmb, you really a calvinist and/or athiest?
[01:32:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> biden's pro-nap? damn, i may have to rethink him.
[01:32:57] <nutherguy> chromas - who uses cases anymore?
[01:32:59] <AzumaHazuki> and when someone attempts to point him toward verifiable, empirical, testable, repeatable evidence to the contrary, it's "argument to authority! You just want to sin^W blame someone!"
[01:33:15] <AzumaHazuki> (IMO the guy's an autotheist, but yeah...)
[01:33:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, none of the above. it's not something anyone can prove, so i have no opinion unless your shit is really, really wacky.
[01:33:50] <AzumaHazuki> so he's pulled off a hat trick of willful stupid: wrong a priori, willfully wrong, wrong post hoc
[01:34:04] <requerdanos> I think the box people usually check with that explanation is "[ ] agnostic"
[01:34:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> eh, only similar not on the nose.
[01:34:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> #g gnostic
[01:34:42] <MrPlow> https://en.wikipedia.org - "Gnosticism is a collection of religious ideas and systems which originated in the first century AD among early Christian and Jewish sects. These various groups ..."
[01:34:50] <AzumaHazuki> strictly speaking, agnostic/gnostic is a knowledge claim and theist/atheist is a belief claim. i am an agnostic theist (well, deist...sorta...) because I don't believe I have 100% airtight deductive proof for my beliefs
[01:35:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> occasionally she says something useful
[01:35:14] <AzumaHazuki> ...and even if I did I know that may be more an artifact of human brain architecture than anything
[01:35:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> i neither believe, disbelieve, or much care which is true.
[01:35:53] <requerdanos> I, too, would qualify as an agnotstic theist, however when people just believe what they know, they usually tick the box "[ ] agnostic" as i mentioned.
[01:36:04] <requerdanos> s/what I said/what I meant/
[01:36:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's like, i'm neither pro-life nor pro-choice. i don't figure it's an issue i'm wise enough to weigh in on, so i don't much.
[01:36:54] <requerdanos> trick from within the mind to ponder what may be an artifact of brain archeticture.
[01:37:46] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Green Shoots: Rooftop Farming Takes off in Singapore - https://sylnt.us - growing-opportunity
[01:38:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> i do me the way i think it should be done so i can look myself in the mirror in the morning, and anyone or Anyone who don't like it... well... *shurg*
[01:38:34] <AzumaHazuki> this is the logical conclusion of the Incompleteness Theorem, that no system of formal logic may be proven consistent from within itself
[01:39:19] <requerdanos> I am just impressed that we can ponder the thing, goedel notwithstanding
[01:39:25] <AzumaHazuki> shitbird here doesn't know or want to know any of this except insofar as it furthers his agenda and keeps him comfortably immune from thinking or caring, of course
[01:39:37] * TheMightyBuzzard chuckles
[01:39:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> the cowardice is strong tonight
[01:40:03] * TheMightyBuzzard wanders off for a smoke while she babbles
[01:40:36] <requerdanos> that sounds like a description of the perfect fellow bar patron. Interested, but not too interested. have another drink.
[01:41:19] <AzumaHazuki> unfortunately, what it actually is is a waste of a human lifetime. what we end up with is someone whose entire goal orientation is base desires
[01:41:33] <AzumaHazuki> that's the kind of shit a Buddhist or Hindu says gets you reborn as an animal if you're lucky
[01:41:37] <requerdanos> I have wasted most of my life in just that manner.
[01:41:59] <AzumaHazuki> ...you didn't ever strike me as someone who was basically just a walking stomach
[01:42:07] <requerdanos> lately I have begun to rethink, last ten years or so.
[01:42:30] <requerdanos> nice stay in a homeless shelter did wonders for my system of ethics and morality.
[01:42:37] <AzumaHazuki> well, good :) Always glad to have another person who knows the value of an examined life
[01:42:58] <AzumaHazuki> i sincerely hope something similar happens to several people on this forum for that exact reason
[01:43:20] <requerdanos> The inconvenient thing is that most everyone I have ever known knows me as a selfish, self-serving, etc.
[01:43:58] <requerdanos> moved to a new state, new me, new life, etc. and presto, new life story
[01:44:07] <AzumaHazuki> i'm glad you were able to do that
[01:44:26] * AzumaHazuki is also attempting a large move, in this case cross-border, to leave the past behind...
[01:44:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, what she fails to get, and will steadfastly deny by any means necessary is that the actual degree of free will we have is irrelevant. human society can only function if we act as if we have it.
[01:45:39] <requerdanos> so, human society [can't function] if we act as if we have just as much control as we have?
[01:46:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> if we act as if we do not have complete responsibility for our every choice, yes
[01:46:36] <requerdanos> control and responsibility are different.
[01:46:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> not in this context.
[01:47:33] <requerdanos> sure they are. I can't 100% control my decisions [for various reasons, including the imperfect control thing] but I am 100% responsible for every one
[01:47:42] <AzumaHazuki> THANK YOU
[01:47:50] <AzumaHazuki> THAT is what this shithead refuses to understand
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[01:49:07] <AzumaHazuki> it's fairly obvious his biggest fear is loss of control. i suspect his brother's suicide was the tipping point that made him retreat into this self-serving, simplistic wrongness
[01:49:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, you may or may not be right but if you allow excuses for incomplete control, society starts crumbling. it's easy as anything to spot throughout history.
[01:49:57] <requerdanos> we have to compensate for incomplete control as best we can, given that 100% responsible thing
[01:50:23] <AzumaHazuki> incomplete control is real. deny it and your interactions with reality will become maladaptive. you need to face it, acknowledge it, and work around it
[01:50:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> if you like. actual quantity of control isn't really relevant.
[01:50:41] <requerdanos> it becomes relevant above a certain threshold.
[01:51:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> eh, that's a matter of opinion.
[01:51:24] <requerdanos> for example, I am on disability for PTSD, and have classes of cognitive processing therapy wherein I learn what the thinking errors are that mess up that control, and how to compensate for them.,
[01:51:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, i mean it is not relevant to holding sole responsibility for your choices
[01:52:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> not in how you go about your own mental housekeeping
[01:52:41] <requerdanos> oh, no, not relevant to holding sole responsibility for your choices, no. control and responsiblity are different.
[01:53:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> azuma brings this argument up because she *has to* have excuses or quite a lot of her beliefs crumble
[01:53:59] <requerdanos> what's an example of that? genuinely curious, not tryin to start a fire
[01:54:37] <AzumaHazuki> that is what we call projection
[01:55:03] <AzumaHazuki> see, he's doing this because 1) he does it, 2) he knows I know he does it, 3) he subscribes to "accuse your opponent of what you yourself do and you are justified/absolved"
[01:55:07] <AzumaHazuki> very Trumpian :)
[01:55:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> taxes used for ever increasing "social safety nets". it's literally money taken by threat of imprisonment or death but she claims it's necessary because $whoever is incapable of helping themselves for $reason.
[01:55:38] <requerdanos> I mean, she said "incomplete control is real. deny it and your interactions with reality will become maladaptive. you need to face it, acknowledge it, and work around it" and you say you work around it by being super-conscious of not using it as an excuse, and instead, focusing on personal responsibility. Sounds to me as if you two agree on that level.
[01:55:48] <AzumaHazuki> actually, my argument is that the cost is less overall when social safety nets are properly implemented...and, just monetary costs, to say nothing of the moral dimension :)
[01:56:22] <AzumaHazuki> it's a straightforward application of "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"
[01:56:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> we all may or may not agree that $whoever needs a hand but she has to justify treating both $whoever and $taxedperson as less than her or it doesn't even make sense.
[01:56:33] <requerdanos> so, it's not necessary because people lack good self control, rather, it's good policy because it's more cost effective?
[01:56:46] <AzumaHazuki> yes, exactly.
[01:57:13] * TheMightyBuzzard shurgs
[01:57:15] <AzumaHazuki> take homelessness. homeless people cost us MORE than they would if we just Pareto-princple'd the 80% or so who just need a home into free housing
[01:57:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> she prefers everything be as she thinks it should rather than giving people the freedom to live as they like.
[01:58:00] <AzumaHazuki> the usage of emergency healthcare, police, etc would go way down, and this has been observed in the real world. that, in turn, frees people and time and money for the truly hard cases
[01:58:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> and she demands we pay for her view of utopia
[01:58:11] <requerdanos> there was a nice article come across on the real cost of homelessness.
[01:58:41] <AzumaHazuki> yes, and Uzzard does not care because "freedom." I've pointed out that a starving, sick, scared human is not free and his only response is "fuck you yes they are"
[01:58:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> homelessness is quite often a choice. generally a bad one but nonetheless...
[01:58:55] <AzumaHazuki> so we're butting up right against the core of his self-serving horseshit here.
[01:59:08] <requerdanos> okay, tmb, would you agree that there are intelligent, well-meaning people who would disagree that expanding social services is cost effective?
[01:59:26] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: "quite often" a choice?
[01:59:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> probably. i don't care about cost effective though. you can't put a price tag on fundamental liberties.
[01:59:48] <AzumaHazuki> depends how and what you expand. some things are boondoggles. and if they're done as grudging after the fact approaches, like we do in the US now, they cost way too much
[02:00:06] <Bytram> occasionally, maybe (don't want nobody telling me what I can[not] do)
[02:00:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, meteor hitting your house and setting it on fire ain't much of a choice
[02:00:21] <requerdanos> AzumaHazuki, would you agree that it's possible to go too far in the way of social services and waste money that might better be used somewhere else?
[02:00:27] <AzumaHazuki> absolutely yes
[02:00:27] <Bytram> that's not my house
[02:00:30] <AzumaHazuki> we're doing it right now
[02:00:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> or electrical fire, whatever
[02:00:54] * Bytram fires up some electrons
[02:01:06] * Bytram fires up some protons, too
[02:01:13] <requerdanos> I know of people who choose to be homeless rather than move to a different area with better social services, because they value their community, family, and other local connections.
[02:01:13] <AzumaHazuki> the entire point of my approach is to prevent rather than cure, so even someone with no morals or ability to interact with people and a stock ticker where his soul should be OUGHT to be on board. Logically. Uzzard is not truly being logical here
[02:01:18] * nutherguy sniffs
[02:01:23] * Bytram is fresh out of amateur-trons
[02:01:26] <nutherguy> Is the server room on fire?
[02:01:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> any riots in dallas?
[02:01:53] <Bytram> =g HACF instruction
[02:01:54] <systemd> https://en.wikipedia.org - Halt and Catch Fire - Wikipedia
[02:01:58] <nutherguy> not that I've heard
[02:02:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> we're good then
[02:02:36] <requerdanos> yes, he just said that he didn't care about what's cost effective where it conflicts with individual liberty, (presumably the liberty to not be taxed?)
[02:02:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, i've been homeless just because i was dumb. didn't care for it and decided not to do it anymore.
[02:02:58] <AzumaHazuki> he doesn't know what the fuck he means beyond "fuck you i won't do what you tell me."
[02:03:12] <requerdanos> Yeah, that's actually in my playlist, so...
[02:03:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, very much so. what one man gets and does not work for, another man works for and does not get. that am slavery.
[02:03:24] <AzumaHazuki> when one points out that a human whose basic physical needs are not met cannot exercise freedom and rational thought, he just goes "BUTBUTBUT MUH TAXES! AT GUNPOINT"
[02:03:37] <requerdanos> I am seeing that.
[02:03:55] <AzumaHazuki> taxes are the price of civilization. this isn't to say they're always good, just that when properly managed and spent they buy civilization
[02:04:01] <requerdanos> I am being taxed either way, and if I am going to be taxed, I'd rather get a good value.
[02:04:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> charity is a wonderful and highly moral thing. forced "charity" is neither moral nor good.
[02:04:28] <AzumaHazuki> this is apparently too complex for him, and/or not enough "fuck you asshole," so he just throws a pants-shitting tantrum and pretends it's about freedom or liberty or responsibility
[02:04:41] <AzumaHazuki> yet he refuses to put his money where his beak is and leave society entirely and go live naked in a tree
[02:05:01] <requerdanos> living naked in a tree might bring up memories of homelessness. would for me.
[02:05:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> you know, i think i prefer being on ignore. at least now when she doesn't listen to a word i say, there's a legitimate reason.
[02:05:50] <AzumaHazuki> please, Uzzard, you're just pissed off I can read you so easily. it's fucking obvious. there are literally millions who "think" like you and it's one of the oldest con/libertarian strategies in the book
[02:06:04] <AzumaHazuki> you are nowhere near as clever as you think you are
[02:06:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, did you get over your cowardice?
[02:06:27] <nutherguy> I, for one, am pleased that Squaw's Teat mountain has been renamed to Bald Eagle Peak.
[02:06:30] <AzumaHazuki> oh no, I definitely think i'm a coward. but i fight anyway
[02:06:37] <requerdanos> I'm a progressive libertarian, who believes that taxation is largely theft, but recognized a place for a core of shared services.
[02:06:48] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: s/coward/corvid/
[02:06:48] <SedBot> <Bytram> <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, did you get over your corvidice?
[02:06:52] <AzumaHazuki> bravery doesn't man neot being afraid, it means fighting even when you're ready to faint from fear
[02:07:09] <Bytram> AzumaHazuki++
[02:07:09] <Bender> karma - azumahazuki: 34
[02:07:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, i am very much in favor of helping folks who need it. i don't even mind helping folks who don't particularly deserve or appreciate it. i greatly object to being forced to work for another's benefit though.
[02:07:25] <nutherguy> we all know there is a difference between bravery and fearlessness
[02:07:27] <Bytram> bravery i not the absence of fear, by definition it requires it.
[02:07:41] <chromas> Fighting on the internet requires maximum bravery
[02:07:46] <requerdanos> tmb, you donate to social causes then? And advocate for government ones to be reduced/eliminated?
[02:07:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, you calling her a bird brain?
[02:08:08] <nutherguy> how denigrating for birds!
[02:08:12] <AzumaHazuki> charity would be great in theory if it worked. in practice...well, there is a reason the phrase "cold as charity" exists
[02:08:19] <Bytram> What's the difference between ignorance and apathy? I don't know and I don't care!
[02:08:24] <requerdanos> internet arguers should understand that if one is arguing with an idiot, the idiot is doing the same thing :)
[02:08:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, i do but most of my charity is closer to home. i help my neighbors and the folks in my town before i go looking for causes.
[02:08:52] <requerdanos> your neighbors and folks in your town sound like a fine cause to me; that's who I focus on helping, too
[02:09:05] <requerdanos> my town, you know, not yours, etc.
[02:09:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, your objection is to human nature then. any system predicated on changing that is doomed to fail.
[02:09:39] <AzumaHazuki> my ideas don't rely on changing human nature :)
[02:09:59] <AzumaHazuki> because another part of this whole society thing is gestalt, or emergent behavior: the whole is more than the sum of its parts
[02:10:08] <AzumaHazuki> we just need to figure out what parts to stick where and how they move
[02:10:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, right. you want to control the humans instead. my bad. i forget which idiotic notion you're having from day to day.
[02:10:18] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: so... what happens if your house and that of all your neighbors gets wiped out in a flood? Homes and all belongings gone. what do you do? Ask your neighbors? They ain't got anything, either.
[02:10:21] <AzumaHazuki> strawman and ad hom
[02:10:41] <chromas> ad strawminym
[02:10:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, i'd expect the more local folks to help more but the entire nation is generous to a fault.
[02:10:48] <AzumaHazuki> ad feminam, possibly? =P
[02:10:54] <requerdanos> I think everyone here knows their logical fallacies.
[02:11:25] <chromas> I only know mine. Not familiar with yours
[02:11:25] <AzumaHazuki> Uzzard's nothing BUT logical fallacies on this topic. though i find a lot of people have a very hard time with the idea of emergent properties
[02:12:07] <requerdanos> I volunteer for and donate to a local homelessness charity, helping my neighbors (as tmb helps his). It makes me feel better about myself to practice some of what I preach
[02:12:08] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: so, it's fine to demand a handout, but not okay to provide one?
[02:12:10] <AzumaHazuki> i usually explain it by pointing out that glucose is just carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. glucose-ness happens because of their proportion and arrangement. nothing about C/H/O predicts or encodes "glucose"
[02:12:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> wait, how is plainly stating your desire instead of wrapping it up in pretty bullshit a fallacy?
[02:12:37] <AzumaHazuki> because...it's not my desire? that's a strawman. you're throwing another diaper-defiling tantrum
[02:12:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, i demand nothing. i simply have faith that others will help me as i've helped them.
[02:12:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> so you don't want to control people?
[02:13:08] <requerdanos> "strawman and ad hom" was a pretty good call, actually. you want to control the outcome, not necessarily the people
[02:13:12] <AzumaHazuki> no. i want to control systems, lightly, more like nudge a few things into place and let good things happen as a resultt
[02:13:23] <AzumaHazuki> remember Mousetrap, the old board game?
[02:13:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, can't do one without the other.
[02:13:53] <requerdanos> sure you can. nudge the pinball machine, and you don't have to control the ball.
[02:14:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> which ain't what she's talking
[02:14:33] <AzumaHazuki> individual freedom does vary inversely with group size, and not necessarily linearly. been that way since two cavemen decided to cooperate on a hunt
[02:14:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> she wants systemic control over the fruits of your labor, forcing you to work more if you want to break even with what you would have initially earned.
[02:14:49] <requerdanos> "controlling the behavior of emergent systems" is different than influencing/controling the individual components or actors in that system.
[02:14:49] <AzumaHazuki> if you have a problem with this, go be wild and free and naked and utterly alone in the woods
[02:15:14] * AzumaHazuki rolls eyes a bit, is still somehow a little surprised at the violence and vehemence of the tantruming...
[02:15:15] <chromas> or just vote different
[02:15:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes but she absolutely does want to control the individual components. that she wants to do it en masse is irrelevant.
[02:15:25] <requerdanos> ah, yes, controlling the people in the sense of using their taxes for government social programs. got it, missed that sense of it initially.
[02:15:32] <chromas> Is this a tantrum?
[02:15:54] <AzumaHazuki> control is a scalpel, not a sledgehammer. ideally you want to get the lay of the land and the people and implement the minimum necessary constraint to pull it off
[02:16:04] <AzumaHazuki> as simple as possible but no simpler, and that may be rather complex
[02:16:19] <requerdanos> what isn't working? knock that off. What's working? more of that.
[02:16:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> control is control. whether you're wanting to be a benevolent dictator or a tyrannical one, you are still a dictator.
[02:16:41] <requerdanos> We are actually a representative republic.
[02:16:42] <AzumaHazuki> right, and also why does X work and Y not work? and, how does Z change if we do X instead of Y?
[02:16:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, in theory, yeah. we're kinda broken right now though.
[02:17:14] <AzumaHazuki> this may actually be the kind of thing brute-force phase-space-crawling AI is very useful for helping us solve. i really think this all comes down to optimization problems in the end
[02:17:20] <AzumaHazuki> and i take this approach with my entire life
[02:17:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> should really ask yourself if you have the right to do X or Y or Z before you ponder that
[02:17:30] <Bytram> requerdanos: s/republic/democracy/
[02:17:30] <SedBot> <Bytram> <requerdanos> We are actually a representative democracy.
[02:17:54] <Bytram> or so I have been led to believe
[02:18:00] <AzumaHazuki> okay, buzztard, let's get down to brass tacks: where does the "right" to do anything come from?
[02:18:10] <Bytram> that said, I'm knackered.
[02:18:11] <requerdanos> The Articles of Confederation failed largely because the federal government couldn't raise compulsory taxes.
[02:18:32] <requerdanos> thus, we now have a Constitution, setting forth the principles of our current government
[02:18:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> we've been over this. ad nauseam
[02:18:45] <requerdanos> sucks, don't it
[02:19:02] <AzumaHazuki> no, we really have not. you always just run away making fart noises and threatening to taunt me a second time =P
[02:19:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, the feds didn't tax income until very recently. it's not something that came about with the constitution.
[02:19:59] <AzumaHazuki> wait, so ONLY income tax is theft now?
[02:20:16] <AzumaHazuki> you may find some sympathy with me on this one, BTW. Wilson fucked shit up bad
[02:20:22] <requerdanos> initially, the issue was compelling the states to fork over money for the running of the federal government. Articles=no, Constitution=yes.
[02:20:26] <Bytram> fwiw, I learned yesterday the guy across the hall from me in my apt building passed away overnight. Didn't know him that well, but a nice guy, kept to himself... wasn't one to start a conversation, but very polite and friendly when engaged in one.
[02:20:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, think back a little bit. here's a few key words to refresh your memory "nowhere" "rights are your ability to do something"
[02:20:59] <AzumaHazuki> so...power, then? :)
[02:21:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> not necessarily
[02:21:10] <AzumaHazuki> if i can, i have the right to? and if i can't, i don't?
[02:21:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> but also yes
[02:21:16] <Bytram> so, I am a bit... discombobulated
[02:21:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> you have the right to turn spontaneously purple but not the power
[02:21:24] <requerdanos> I'm sorry about your neighbor
[02:22:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> rights do not need enumerating to exist, infringements do.
[02:22:14] <AzumaHazuki> so what grounds rights, ontologically speaking? :)
[02:22:21] * TheMightyBuzzard sighs
[02:22:42] <Bytram> Regurgitator: thanks. still hasn't entirely sunk in... brain has figured it out; I'm waiting for the rest of the awareness to kick in. prolly won't me that pretty.
[02:22:45] <requerdanos> these Rights, aiui, are endowed by [the] Creator
[02:22:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, we've had this discussion. if you want to have it again, hit the logs and argue with me there.
[02:23:02] <AzumaHazuki> no, it never went anywhere
[02:23:06] <AzumaHazuki> what. grounds. rights?
[02:23:33] <Bytram> have a good night everybody
[02:23:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, naw. they simply are. rights aren't given, only taken.
[02:23:37] <requerdanos> peace.
[02:23:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, nite
[02:23:54] <AzumaHazuki> okay, so you're saying rights are Platonic, self-existent forms?
[02:24:08] <requerdanos> I'm sure saying that.
[02:24:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, i'm saying what grounds the universe?
[02:24:22] <requerdanos> I couldn't have said it better
[02:24:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> because that's what rights are. they're a wildcard.
[02:24:28] <AzumaHazuki> "the universe" is not a thing. it is the collection of all things
[02:24:31] <AzumaHazuki> rights are things
[02:25:04] <AzumaHazuki> even if you believe them to be free-floating Platonic objects they are still dseparate, discrete...and contingent
[02:25:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> infringements are carved out of that wildcard
[02:25:08] <requerdanos> well, we wouldn't need the words "multiverse" nor "omniverse"
[02:25:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, they are not. they are one large pot that you can take a scoop out of and name if you like.
[02:25:43] <AzumaHazuki> and what grounds this pot?
[02:25:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> but they encompass any possible action
[02:26:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> technically even the impossible ones
[02:26:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> but those are rarely relevant
[02:26:21] <AzumaHazuki> no disagreement there...but they depend on/emerge from sentient, sapient minds
[02:26:24] <AzumaHazuki> no sapients, no rights
[02:26:25] <requerdanos> why can't the pot float?
[02:27:04] <AzumaHazuki> it's couch-locked =P it's a sativa strain
[02:27:18] <requerdanos> Law is not a list of specific things that are permitted, with all others being infringements; this is a reflection of the doctrine of "rights are a floating pot of everything you can do"
[02:27:23] <chromas> I thought it was grounded, or "earthed" in metric countries
[02:27:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, it ain't poetic but yes.
[02:28:17] <AzumaHazuki> oh, laws are another level above rights even. we're getting way ahead of ourselves here
[02:28:40] <AzumaHazuki> and anyway that's not strictly about individual laws so much as "do we default-allow or default-deny?"
[02:28:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> individual, specific rights don't really exist until someone says "look, you bastards, you better not take that big piece of sausage before i get my turn"
[02:29:06] <AzumaHazuki> and what prevents sausage-taker from taking sausage?
[02:29:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> nothing, that's just how they get enumerated
[02:29:16] <chromas> Rights are socket-deactivated
[02:29:34] <AzumaHazuki> that's not a right, that's just a statement. possibly backed up by a threat
[02:29:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> missing the point
[02:29:50] <AzumaHazuki> a derived member of a class called "property right" maybe? :)
[02:29:58] <AzumaHazuki> with a sausage member item?
[02:30:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> that's only an example of how rights go from nebulous to named.
[02:30:05] <requerdanos> there are some rights enumerated, bill of rights for example, but it's not just either-or default deny or default allow, because default deny would require the enumeration of the whole floating pot of rights, whereas default allow recognizes its nature.
[02:30:05] <chromas> it's your right to take the sausage until someone says it isn't
[02:30:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> the analogy doesn't go further
[02:30:25] <AzumaHazuki> chromas: so...power then
[02:30:36] <chromas> thanks a lot; now I want pizza
[02:30:41] <chromas> pizza++
[02:30:41] <Bender> karma - pizza: 54
[02:30:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, yes. a whole lot of folks decided it would be a bad idea for the government to be able to pick all the pepperoni off the pizzas of the citizens.
[02:31:04] <AzumaHazuki> and what prevents them from pilfering pepperomi?
[02:31:06] <chromas> Well it could be another sausage. Perhaps a wild sausage field
[02:31:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> lot of folks don't like something, it gets forbidden from being infringed.
[02:31:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, the analogy doesn't cover that
[02:31:25] <chromas> You're free to pick them until someone decides they need to be rationed
[02:31:26] <AzumaHazuki> so...a lot of people bringing power to bear, then?
[02:31:38] <chromas> Bears also enjoy sausage
[02:31:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> to prevent infringement, yes
[02:32:01] <requerdanos> I am thinking towards the right of the people to be secure in their persons and possessions, the right against unreasonable pepperoni seizure. USC, Amendment 4.
[02:32:01] <AzumaHazuki> why is it so hard for you to just come out and say it? might makes right in your worldview
[02:32:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> chromas, especially if it's in a pic-i-nic basket if my childhood didn't steer me wrong.
[02:32:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, because the rights exist before anyone even considers them.
[02:32:43] <AzumaHazuki> er, no, they don't. by definition.
[02:32:56] <AzumaHazuki> the right not to have your sausage stolen entails the pre-existence of sausage
[02:33:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes, they do. they just aren't named because it's not important.
[02:33:02] <AzumaHazuki> and someone who values it not being stolen
[02:33:09] <chromas> !grab requerdanos
[02:33:09] <Bender> Added quote 988
[02:33:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> it becomes important only when someone tries to infringe a right.
[02:33:32] <requerdanos> the right not to have your sausage stolen is an instance of class "the right not to have your $WHATEVER_THING molested in $WHATEVER_WAY"
[02:33:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> or when folks writing a document have a bit of forethought
[02:33:59] <AzumaHazuki> bingo, requerdanos :) but that, too, depends on and emerges from the existence of beings which value that
[02:34:12] <chromas> TheMightyBuzzard: I'm commandeering that pic-a-nic basket and also disarming Booboo, since I have a right to his arms
[02:34:16] <requerdanos> It's turtles all the way down to that floating pot of rights, though
[02:34:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> chromas, not a right to arm bears?
[02:34:37] <AzumaHazuki> not at all. rights emerge from human (and possibly higher primate, elephant, and cetacean) existence
[02:34:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> newp. critters understand them too on some level.
[02:35:20] <requerdanos> okay, so sentient existince is perhaps the ether in which the pot floats.
[02:35:22] <chromas> Lichen doesn't have the right to spread out and take over the rocks but it does so anyhow
[02:35:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> take a cat's food dish away when it's trying to eat if you need some science on that.
[02:35:29] <AzumaHazuki> they are concepts a mind above a certain level of sapience and social organization can come up with. they do not pre-exist these minds, and they presuppose them
[02:35:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, they preexist them. the abstract idea of them does not.
[02:36:08] <AzumaHazuki> oh gods, are you a numerical Platonist too?
[02:36:17] <AzumaHazuki> number is not quantity. rights are not desires.
[02:36:22] <requerdanos> I won't insist that rights pre-exist sentience, but I won't deny it either
[02:36:34] <chromas> Can rights exist before being defined or is it like the speed of light where it goes as fast as it wants until we implemented a speed limit?
[02:36:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> never said they were. take a cat's food away and you will get a look that can be nothing but "you asshole, that's mine"
[02:36:53] <AzumaHazuki> the very idea of rights presupposes a certain level of intelligence, society, and theory of mind
[02:36:54] <requerdanos> where to start, where to start
[02:37:10] <AzumaHazuki> the cat just has desires. that's not a "right."
[02:37:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, the concept of them doesn't preexist minds to hold it but neither does the concept of water and yet it exists just the same
[02:37:52] <chromas> You guys apparently summoned my cat
[02:38:03] <AzumaHazuki> ...er, no. water pre-exists the concept of water
[02:38:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> it has a right to lay on your keyboard
[02:38:06] <requerdanos> I don't think water and rights are a great comparison.
[02:38:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes, i just said so
[02:38:16] <requerdanos> to say nothing of water rights.
[02:38:40] <chromas> He's scratching my pants while getting his belly rubbed
[02:38:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> rights are the ability. non-sentient things have the abilities but not the means to think about them.
[02:38:55] <AzumaHazuki> this kind of thing is why i keep bringing up the phrase "moral priority inversion bug." People need to get their object inheritance trees staight before trying to make policy
[02:39:22] <AzumaHazuki> and no, rights emerge from the ability in conjunction with the necessary sapience/sentience to even conceive of the concept
[02:39:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, the concept of rights does
[02:39:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> the ability preexists a mind at all
[02:39:46] <AzumaHazuki> rights are conceptual. they are not physical objects
[02:39:57] <AzumaHazuki> they have no referent
[02:39:59] <requerdanos> I would say "ability plus the necessary sentience" isn't far from "It's turtles all the way down to that floating pot of rights"
[02:40:01] <chromas> What about alt-rights? Or ctrl-rights?
[02:40:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, well to be able to argue about them, sure.
[02:40:28] <chromas> requerdanos: or float pointers
[02:40:35] <requerdanos> happiness is not a physical object, but it exists, right?
[02:40:51] <AzumaHazuki> right. but it also depends entirely on the existence of minds capable of it
[02:40:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> they don't need talking or thinking about to exist though. a worm retains the ability to wiggle even if it can't think about wiggling.
[02:41:01] <chromas> happiness didn't exist until we defined it
[02:41:33] <requerdanos> regardless of its history, it exists without a physical form
[02:41:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> chromas, sure it did. dinosaurs went fishing.
[02:42:00] <AzumaHazuki> this is the same kind of sloppy thinking that underlies apologists' Ontological Arguments. it's just a case of bad grammar
[02:42:07] <requerdanos> or are you including fishing dinosaurs in that "we"?
[02:42:29] <AzumaHazuki> ...well, he IS in his 40s =P
[02:42:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, this is simply how i choose to look at rights and oppression. it isn't capable of being wrong.
[02:42:46] <AzumaHazuki> ...uh, wow, that was...unintentionally revealing
[02:42:50] <AzumaHazuki> it can't be wrong because...?
[02:42:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> because it's a point of view
[02:43:09] <AzumaHazuki> remember, axioms are destruct-tested by the theorems they give rise to :)
[02:43:13] <chromas> In his 40s? Probably going senile then
[02:43:27] <chromas> Post-awareness stage 6 is without definition
[02:43:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> nicotine++ #smoke break
[02:43:28] <Bender> karma - nicotine: 787
[02:43:41] <requerdanos> wish I could still smoke. I miss it.
[02:43:58] <AzumaHazuki> also, you can't just say "yeah well this is an axiom" and just place anything you want above criticism :)
[02:44:15] <AzumaHazuki> doesn't work for Sye ten Bruggencate (or Cornelius van Til), doesn't work for you
[02:44:41] <requerdanos> when I met my fianceé, she believed that sophistry was a valid argument method because she and her ex always practiced it
[02:45:11] <requerdanos> ...there was a rough period of really weird arguments...
[02:45:18] <AzumaHazuki> i can imagine @_@
[02:46:08] <chromas> But now you've moved on to tapestry
[02:46:26] <requerdanos> nah, mostly pragmatism
[02:47:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, i'm not saying it's an axiom
[02:47:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm saying it's the way i choose to look at an issue
[02:47:39] <AzumaHazuki> yes, you are. you're saying you take it as bedrock and refuse to allow it to be subject to scrutiny
[02:47:45] <AzumaHazuki> that is the definition of axiom
[02:47:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, i've been letting you scrutinize for over an hour
[02:47:59] <requerdanos> that which is axiomatic is unassailable because it's right. that which is simply a viewpoint can be unassailable by virtue of being slippery
[02:48:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's like "define a true scottsman"
[02:48:29] <AzumaHazuki> well...technically, you can crack an axiom by showing that it contradicts itself. ...which, interestingly, means there are at least 2 layers of axioms
[02:48:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> everyone is entitled to their own viewpoint since it is an abstract concept
[02:48:45] <chromas> One who doesn't put sugar on his oatmeal
[02:48:58] <requerdanos> "The barber shaves those who don't shave themselves. who shaves the barber?"
[02:49:02] <AzumaHazuki> i try to keep myself free of any but the lowest layer, and members of this set are "those statements one must affirm in order to deny"
[02:49:28] <AzumaHazuki> i stick to identity (A is A), noncontradiction (A is not not-A), and excluded middle (a thing is not A and ~A at the same time)
[02:49:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes but you can not have absolute truths about human thought. you can only have points of view.
[02:49:53] <AzumaHazuki> ...oh my Goddess. you did not just put out global epistemological skepticism
[02:49:58] <requerdanos> everyone has an opinion, but I gotta say, opinions can be wrong.
[02:50:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, sure, which is itself an opinion.
[02:50:17] <AzumaHazuki> epistemological nihilism? really? and you don't see how that completely undermines everything you ever have, can, or would say?
[02:50:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, show me a particle of justice, hope, faith. when you do you can tell me your view on them is correct.
[02:51:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> until you do, we each get our own definition.
[02:51:15] <requerdanos> they are like that dinosaur happiness.
[02:51:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep
[02:51:24] <AzumaHazuki> ...according to you I can say they exist as brute fact and if you deny it i can just say it's my "point of view" and therefore true
[02:51:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> nope, if you say it's fact you gotta back it up with proof. if you say it's my way of looking at things, more power to ya.
[02:51:57] <chromas> No particles; only farticles
[02:51:58] <AzumaHazuki> epistemological nihilism is empty. it robs you of the ability to say anything.
[02:52:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> ~define farticle
[02:52:11] <chromas> And you can't have a farticle without first defining water
[02:52:12] <AzumaHazuki> i am...actually disappointed you punted to this
[02:52:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> awe...
[02:52:49] <requerdanos> At the macro scale, there is cause and effect, truth and falsity
[02:52:51] <AzumaHazuki> also, er...why do you think I need justice etc to be self-existing Platonic entities? I am perfectly fine with them being contingent on sapient minds
[02:53:11] <requerdanos> at the quantum scale, not so much, of course
[02:53:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's not nihilism. it's the actual truth. unless you can show me a rule book defining human concepts and someone forcing them on minds.
[02:53:50] <requerdanos> no no, not nihilism, epistemological nihilism. The lack of a specific thing, not the general lack.
[02:54:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> on the bathroom scale, there is often very little truth
[02:54:22] <AzumaHazuki> but...on your worldview you can't know that
[02:54:23] <requerdanos> my bathroom scale has decided to read out in kg no matter what I do.
[02:54:26] <AzumaHazuki> you can only emote it
[02:54:43] <chromas> Aw shit, even scales have emojis now?
[02:54:56] <chromas> feckin' unicode
[02:54:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh i can know it. i know how to calibrate a scale. and how to uncalibrate it.
[02:55:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> 🖕
[02:55:12] <AzumaHazuki> how do you know that you know how to calibrate a scale and uncalibrate it?
[02:55:17] * chromas weighs the arguments
[02:55:20] <AzumaHazuki> on your worldview. after all, it's just your point of view
[02:55:28] <requerdanos> yeah, my viewpoint is, you don't know any of that stuff.
[02:55:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> true, it's an agreed upon for the sake of convenience view though.
[02:55:56] <requerdanos> you do know a cool old indian fire trick, though.
[02:56:25] <AzumaHazuki> let's make this even simpler: let's say for the sake of argument that "my viewpoint is that Uzzard is guilty of murder." And my worldview is yours: it's "just my point of view" so it can't be proven wrong
[02:56:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> there's no universal law saying a pound is 16 oz. or where you keep dogs.
[02:56:33] <AzumaHazuki> how would you prove to me you are not a murderer?
[02:56:43] <c0lo> I think I had enough non-sense for today. Continue to neglect the reality/nature in your view-points, don't be surprised what it'll do to you if you choose to go against it.
[02:56:48] <c0lo> =quit
[02:56:54] -!- c0lo has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[02:57:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, facts. i cannot however prove to you that your definition of murderer is wrong, only that it conflicts with the law.
[02:57:36] <requerdanos> the law is what we are agreeing on, one might say, for the sake of convenience.
[02:57:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> yup
[02:58:03] <AzumaHazuki> but it's just my worldview, fuck the law
[02:58:14] <AzumaHazuki> my worldview is real, the law is just a thing. it's not my opinion so it's not valid
[02:58:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> if you like. i'm not saying that though.
[02:58:46] <AzumaHazuki> yes, you are. by saying that "just my opinion" is the final arbiter of truth, that emotivism is your epistemological tool, you've completely exploded logic
[02:58:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> you are absolutely free to go break it if you like. it is an agreed upon law not a fundamental law of the universe.
[02:59:14] <AzumaHazuki> do you see why? it's because your opinions need not be grounded in anything external to you.
[02:59:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm not preaching truth. you asked me what rights were and i told you my concept of them.
[02:59:38] <AzumaHazuki> okay, but How Do You Know That? (TM)
[02:59:45] <requerdanos> "Experience"
[03:00:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> there is no know to be had. you cannot prove an asbtract concept like faith, hope, justice, rights.
[03:00:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can only lay out what you think is a good working model
[03:01:02] <requerdanos> you can provide evidence for/against that model.
[03:01:10] <AzumaHazuki> okay, and by what metric do you judge? remember, as soon as you start taking in outside information, you contradict the "just my opinions" thing
[03:01:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can show how it is fit for purpose if you like, that's about the best you can do.
[03:02:04] <AzumaHazuki> to be quite honest, you're committing the informal fallacy known as "fallacy of the stolen concept," using an idea to argue against its own genetic roots. in this case, you need to assume an objective reality whose brute facts are not subject to your opinion even to make those statements. or any statement
[03:02:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> newtonian physics and relativity work just as well for targeting artillery
[03:03:06] <AzumaHazuki> How Do You Know That? (TM)
[03:03:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, you're arguing that the mental concepts like justice, rights, honor, etc... have a fundamental reality independent of human minds holding them
[03:03:17] <AzumaHazuki> ...no, I'm not?
[03:03:31] <AzumaHazuki> good lord, what the hell. i've spent an hour explicitly stating that all these emerge from sapient minds
[03:03:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> then the human mind holding them gets to shape them however it likes
[03:03:33] <requerdanos> I am getting the picture of an objective reality, with facts, in which certain classes of "knowledge" are merely opinion.
[03:04:04] <AzumaHazuki> no, it doesn't. our ideas of what constitutes justice and right and morality are shaped at a much older and lower level than opinions
[03:04:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, there's a lot of those
[03:04:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, no, they are not
[03:04:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> they are collective opinions. nothing else.
[03:04:33] <AzumaHazuki> you need to read some de Waal. primatology. studies on our relatives, and on dolphins and whales and other high animals
[03:04:33] <requerdanos> now some things are in fact merely opinion ("broccoli tastes good") so it's a question as to what you admit to the opinion camp, and what you hold up for objective scrutiny
[03:04:58] <requerdanos> see, I don't speak Dolphinese, so I don't know what they think of broccoli.
[03:04:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> you need to actually listen when you speak to me. you'll argue less.
[03:05:06] <AzumaHazuki> ah, here's where we hit pay dirt: i am going to contravene established wisdom and say you absolutely can, indeed must, get ought from is. how and where else?
[03:05:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, bingo
[03:05:45] <AzumaHazuki> what we think of as moral would be different if we were a solitary species (we might not even have the concept), or if we were descended from cats instead of apes
[03:06:07] <AzumaHazuki> our evolutionary lineage and our environments shape us
[03:06:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> what we think of as moral started being defined the first time Grob got pissed off at Ugh for doing something he didn't like.
[03:06:43] <AzumaHazuki> much, much older. you should read some de Waal and some Goodall
[03:06:47] <AzumaHazuki> morality is older than humanity
[03:06:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes yes, for humanity i mean.
[03:07:01] <AzumaHazuki> but of course "MUH ARGUMENT TO AUTHORITY!"
[03:07:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> go back as far as you like in primates
[03:07:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> what authority, there is none
[03:07:44] <AzumaHazuki> we are primates. there is no truly discrete, razor-thin separation between the last common primate ancestor and its direct next-gen descendants
[03:07:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> you're the one citing others. i'm laying out the raw ideas.
[03:08:02] <requerdanos> Goodall is widely recognized as an authority.
[03:08:16] <AzumaHazuki> this is another weirdly religious piece of thinking for an agnostic-atheist, this idea of a shining bright line of separation like that
[03:08:39] <requerdanos> The line didn't look that bright from here
[03:08:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, doesn't matter. follow it back as far as you like. it was still an opinion even if they didn't have the concept of "opinion" yet.
[03:09:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> because of the meaning of the word "opinion"
[03:09:21] <AzumaHazuki> you're missng my point: those opinions are shaped by the bodies, minds, and environments those bodies and minds find themselves in. there is not infinite phase space here
[03:09:32] <AzumaHazuki> this is where we get human (and possibly primate) universals
[03:09:49] <AzumaHazuki> most importantly, we did not control those things. they are evolutionary inevitabilities
[03:09:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, we get universals because the ones that worked badly tended to not get the booty by dint of being dead.
[03:10:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> tended to
[03:10:17] <AzumaHazuki> bingo! bodies, minds, and environmental selection pressures!
[03:10:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> not always
[03:10:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> so we have some general things we mostly agree on, that doesn't make them "true", only consensus.
[03:11:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> like climate change =P
[03:11:15] <requerdanos> climate change is not true, only consensus?
[03:11:22] <AzumaHazuki> isn't he amazing? :/
[03:11:34] <requerdanos> gotta admit, yes
[03:11:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> everyone keeps telling me "there's near universal consensus!" whenever i question anything
[03:11:51] <AzumaHazuki> the consensus emerges because it was a local maximum of fitness, Uzzard. given our circmstances, bodies, minds, and environment, it worked best
[03:12:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> which makes me laugh
[03:12:11] <AzumaHazuki> okay, so? it's still true
[03:12:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> that is independent of it being consensus though.
[03:13:01] <requerdanos> something else true, the climate change alarmists are annoying as all get out, boiling oceans, seas rising 50 feet by 2000, etc.
[03:13:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> they make the wrong argument
[03:13:04] <AzumaHazuki> quite the contrary, that is WHY it became consensus
[03:13:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> then make the right argument
[03:13:38] <requerdanos> "All the penguins are gonna die, doesn't that upset you?" "I dunno, how do they taste?"
[03:13:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos++
[03:13:50] <Bender> karma - requerdanos: 4
[03:13:50] <AzumaHazuki> stuff like "don't steal, don't murder, don't cheat on your lover" represent local maxima of fitness for the conceptual phase space our minds and bodies in our environments occupy
[03:14:18] <AzumaHazuki> we come to them naturally and without much if any conscious thought; the rationalizations are after the fact
[03:14:40] <requerdanos> I am pretty sure goodall observed widespread and established lover-cheating
[03:14:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> and? how do you determine fitness without testing it against other conflicting ideas?
[03:14:59] <AzumaHazuki> you don't. i am saying this winnowing has happened and is still happening
[03:15:23] <AzumaHazuki> new data might change the moral landscape, the same way changing the order of pieces in a game of Mousetrap will produce different effects
[03:15:50] <requerdanos> in mousetrap, each piece fits just one place
[03:15:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> and new, different concepts are still being created.
[03:16:24] <chromas> new Firefox update
[03:16:26] <AzumaHazuki> requerdanos: okay, bad analogy. maybe a better one is circuit design? changing a resistor here, adding a path there...
[03:16:28] <chromas> "Now get privacy on every screen
[03:16:28] <chromas> Enter your email or phone number"
[03:16:38] <AzumaHazuki> ...vot cyka
[03:16:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> never played it. i liked kick the little brother better
[03:17:12] <requerdanos> hard pass on the firefox privacy by sharing personal info
[03:17:38] <chromas> It's supposed to just be to send a download link to your phone
[03:17:41] <chromas> wink wink
[03:17:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, i liked penny patterson better. coco da bomb in phantom, yo.
[03:17:52] <AzumaHazuki> uh huhhhh...and I'm Sailor Mercury
[03:18:17] <chromas> I thought you were Sailor Bluto
[03:18:42] <AzumaHazuki> if anything i look kind of like a 3/4 Mars 1/4 Jupiter hybrid in work boots and jeans
[03:18:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> #yt petruci popeye
[03:18:47] <MrPlow> https://www.youtube.com -- Nicola Petrucci "Popeye VS Pirates"
[03:18:59] * chromas hides me spinach
[03:19:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> i applaud your practicality
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[03:19:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> wrong one
[03:19:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> #yt petruccifever popeye
[03:19:40] <MrPlow> https://www.youtube.com -- PetrucciFever Popeye Punk Theme
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[03:20:35] <requerdanos> yeah that's pretty good
[03:21:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, here's a problem you run into following your own logic: if you do not allow for differing viewpoints to come into conflict by saying "this is the one that is best" then you are stagnant and unable to better yourself.
[03:21:58] <AzumaHazuki> hence why I'm always absorbing new data and filtering it and running simulations
[03:22:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> so, yeah, there's evolution constantly happening. and that precludes any one outlook from being the correct one. ever.
[03:22:11] <chromas> RTX on or off?
[03:22:37] <AzumaHazuki> there's the problem: assuming they're all equally wrong. there is a standard by which opinions may be judged, and this is external reality
[03:22:42] <requerdanos> there can only be truth after the heat death of the universe?
[03:23:15] <AzumaHazuki> leaving aside useless paradoxes like the brain in a vat problem or hard solipsism, ideas are tried (in both senses of the word) by their interactions with reality external to the mind
[03:23:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> they're not all equally wrong. some will work better for some, some will work better for others, sometimes they come into conflict. there is no right or wrong, only arguments.
[03:23:51] <AzumaHazuki> wrong again...observable reality is the metric. one may possibly only be able to approach right asymptotically but there is definitely a distribution
[03:24:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, yes. the bill at milliways.
[03:24:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can't observe an abstract concept and you cannot judge fitness without having an opinion on what fitness means.
[03:24:42] <requerdanos> It's your opinion that the electrons come in a particle pattern, my opinion that the electrons follow a wave pattern. Let's observe the results... I'm right! Wait, let's observe each electron... You're right!
[03:24:54] * TheMightyBuzzard chuckles
[03:25:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, example...
[03:25:02] <AzumaHazuki> "let's observe some more, and in different ways...what the actual fuck?"
[03:25:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> your fitness would lead to a US vastly different from my fitness. and both would be what we wanted.
[03:25:33] <AzumaHazuki> "so it acts like either or both, but when we don't observe until after the fact it acts differently-- :psypop:"
[03:25:40] <requerdanos> so about that objective external reality
[03:25:58] <requerdanos> I have seen messed up things that cause me to doubt it.
[03:26:03] <AzumaHazuki> well, yes, the elephant in the room is what level of access we have to it
[03:26:19] <requerdanos> I mean I totally believe in it, but, at the same time, doubt.
[03:26:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> i mean, yeah, we can look back on history and say "hey, that worked out pretty well for us" but who knows if something else might have worked out better.
[03:26:34] <AzumaHazuki> this is why i never claim 100% certainty on anything except those base axioms, and even then, am aware they may just be artifacts of my body and mind
[03:26:59] <AzumaHazuki> all i can do is always, always, always grab more data and analyze them
[03:27:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, relax man. it's all a simulation. i'm the MCP and you lot are just input.
[03:27:11] <chromas> Need input!
[03:27:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> i distrust anyone claiming axiomatic truth
[03:27:53] <requerdanos> I claim that axiomatic truth exists. learned that in high school geometry.
[03:27:54] <AzumaHazuki> just try and deny those three without asserting them :)
[03:27:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> if you can't argue about it, you're probably full of shit
[03:28:11] <chromas> You lots sure can argue
[03:28:14] <AzumaHazuki> i hold those three axioms because i have to assert them to deny them
[03:28:29] <requerdanos> it's a recreational activity, like bowling or book-binding
[03:28:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> chromas, ed zackery.
[03:28:38] <AzumaHazuki> it's not a choice. now that may be a consequence of my brain architecture, but i literally do not have a choice
[03:28:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> #yt we are the champions
[03:28:41] <MrPlow> https://www.youtube.com -- Queen - We Are The Champions (Official Video)
[03:29:22] <AzumaHazuki> https://www.youtube.com
[03:29:23] <systemd> ^ 03Lazy Town | We are Number One Music Video Videos For Kids
[03:29:31] <chromas> =yt bohemian rhapsody pitch meeting
[03:29:32] <systemd> https://youtube.com - Bohemian Rhapsody Pitch Meeting (05:28; 1,519,814 views; 👍47,901 👎642)
[03:30:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> new argument: We Will Rock You is the greatest rock song ever
[03:30:08] <chromas> Disagree
[03:30:19] <chromas> It's overloved and overused, like Amazing Grace
[03:30:36] <chromas> fite me
[03:30:39] <requerdanos> Hey, Amazing Grace is a terrific song
[03:30:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> chromas, everyone from here to dubai knows it and digs it
[03:30:51] <AzumaHazuki> de gustibus non est disputandum. this is one of those things that's going to vary by person and has tremendous possible phase space with very little effect on fitness either way
[03:31:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> don't matter if they're bluegrass folks, gangsta rap folks, whatever them rave kids listen to, emo, whatever... everyone knows it and digs it to some degree
[03:31:59] <chromas> de gsutibus gloop. oompa loompa, doopity doo
[03:32:00] <AzumaHazuki> that may speak to something fundamental about how we perceive sound and what evolution has done to wire us at the species level...
[03:32:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, total quantity of appreciation in the species as a metric
[03:32:18] <AzumaHazuki> i actually do wonder sometimes if finding "the ultimate melody" might be some sort of cognitohazard
[03:32:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> prolly why they killed freddy mercury
[03:32:47] <chromas> for the greater good
[03:32:54] <SoyCow0066> I dig Amazing Grace, but it's still shit.
[03:32:55] <chromas> kill him before he kills us
[03:33:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> i don't think there is an actual ultimate melody. major and minor chords are somewhat universal in the very basics but melodies are very cultural
[03:34:06] <AzumaHazuki> now changes in the body and mind can change music taste greatly. i'm very deaf and it's an uneven loss, mostly affecting 1-4KHz (where all the consonants are). as a result, i don't like anything with vocals. odd, right?
[03:34:20] <chromas> We just need to find the ultimate culture then
[03:34:27] <requerdanos> Time for me to figure out food, then sleep.
[03:34:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> merica++
[03:34:30] <Bender> karma - merica: 10
[03:34:31] <chromas> probably found in a special cheese somewhere
[03:34:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> requerdanos, enjoy
[03:34:38] <chromas> cheese++
[03:34:38] <Bender> karma - cheese: 22
[03:34:46] <requerdanos> Peace.
[03:35:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya know, that's a pretty damned good idea
[03:35:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> cept i done had food so i think i'll go with bourbon then bed instead
[03:37:22] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Researchers Develop Dual-Wavelength Ocean Lidar for Vertical Ocean Profiling - https://sylnt.us - making-light-work-of-things
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[05:18:18] <nutherguy> do something arti|work
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[05:47:27] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Nikola's Deal With GM Was Supposed to Close Today—It Didn't - https://sylnt.us - sinking-ship?
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[05:50:16] <Your_Mommas_Bull> Daily reminder: All of America's problems are due to Jews, Mexicans, and Chinks.
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[07:09:37] <FatPhil> so, does arti's job just involve him opening and closing his laptop repeatedly?
[07:26:00] <chromas> https://www.youtube.com
[07:26:03] <systemd> ^ 03Spaceballs (1987)
[07:56:04] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Toyota Research Institute Demonstrates Ceiling-Mounted Home Robot - https://sylnt.us - things-from-nightmares
[08:17:35] <FatPhil> Woo woo! This is the machine I'm currently IRC-ing from (one of my RasPis):
[08:17:36] <FatPhil> phil@razspaz:~$ uptime 11:17:58 up 1001 days, 23:30, 6 users, load average: 0.11, 0.18, 0.18
[08:35:19] <inz> My irc box only has 62 days :(
[08:36:16] <inz> I did later find out what caused the loss of uptime; one wordpress installation had been pwned and all the memories belonged to some spam script
[08:47:47] <FatPhil> ouch
[08:49:46] <FatPhil> the only time one of my machines was pwned was one where I cleaned it up rather than reinstallng, as it was a known dropper, and all of the binaries dropped were compiled under redhat so easy to detect on my debian system
[08:50:40] <FatPhil> it even left copies of the old binaries that it had replaced, so that it could lie about them still being there
[08:51:37] <FatPhil> I know that's the wrong thing to do, but I took it as a challenge. IT wasn'tm an important machine, so I didn't care if I broke things.
[09:19:56] <inz> There were no priviledge escalations, just www-data, but it was nasty enough
[09:20:47] <inz> Should probably consider adding some user limits for memory, so a non-priv'd process can't trigger OOMrminator
[10:07:45] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - SpaceX Starlink Brings Internet to Emergency Responders in Wildfire Areas - https://sylnt.us - real-good
[11:03:43] <FatPhil> you'd never be able to run firefox that way, as that requires infinite memory, and then more.
[11:30:30] <inz> Good thing I don't need such on the box
[12:17:23] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Color Changes Due to Blood Circulation Can be Used to Detect Deep Fakes - https://sylnt.us - mood-ring
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[12:39:59] <SoyCow0495> =submit https://spaceflightnow.com
[12:40:01] <systemd> Submitting "Delta 4-Heavy launch aborted at T-minus 7 seconds – Spaceflight Now"...
[12:40:23] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Delta 4-Heavy Launch Aborted at T-minus 7 Seconds – Spaceflight Now" (40 paragraphs) -> https://soylentnews.org
[12:40:42] <SoyCow0495> =submit https://techcrunch.com
[12:40:43] <systemd> Submitting "After breach, Twitter hires a new cybersecurity chief – TechCrunch"...( 1 modified urls; https://social.techcrunch.com )
[12:41:05] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03After Breach, Twitter Hires a New Cybersecurity Chief – TechCrunch" (13 paragraphs) -> https://soylentnews.org
[12:41:13] <SoyCow0495> =submit https://www.theguardian.com
[12:41:14] <systemd> Submitting "Religious group scrubs all references to Amy Coney Barrett from its website"...( 1 modified urls; http://www.theguardian.com )
[12:41:36] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Religious Group Scrubs All References to Amy Coney Barrett From its Website" (24 paragraphs) -> https://soylentnews.org
[12:42:51] <requerdanos> so. did either major party candidate have a good showing at the debate?
[12:43:30] <FatPhil> i heard it was a shitshow
[12:43:49] <requerdanos> I skipped it but listened to exceprts on npr
[12:44:43] <requerdanos> my takeaway is that it was important for the president to not seem like a nut, which failed, and for fmr vp biden, it was important to not be an ass like the president is, also failed.
[12:57:00] <SoyCow0495> /quit
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[14:28:13] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - The Global Semiconductor Market: China Deploys Sun Tzu to Prevail in the Chip War - https://sylnt.us
[15:48:36] <nutherguy> https://mashable.com
[15:48:37] <systemd> ^ 03'Weird Al' Yankovic breaks down the debate with Songified 'WE'RE ALL DOOMED'
[15:58:39] <RandomFactor> Requerdanos: 1) It was annoying to watch. 2) Trump is a bully 3) Biden is weak 4) Wallace was biased (although better than expected) 5) Very little of substance was discussed (and that by Trump) 6) Mostly the usual, often debunked, talking point barbs. 7) Neither of them did particularly
[15:58:39] <RandomFactor> well responding
[16:01:20] <nutherguy> =submit https://phys.org
[16:01:29] -!- systemd has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[16:01:36] <nutherguy> to summarize, the debate was a shitshow
[16:01:44] <RandomFactor> yes
[16:02:06] <FatPhil> so basically that weird al vid sums it up nicely
[16:02:11] <nutherguy> flatworms will save us though
[16:02:28] <FatPhil> what was the thing about the cows?
[16:02:41] <RandomFactor> Oh something about methane and green new deal
[16:02:44] <nutherguy> that was part of global warming
[16:02:51] <nutherguy> yeah methan and green new deal
[16:03:08] <RandomFactor> My comment at the time was "Moooooo"
[16:03:59] <nutherguy> and - your ancestors were chinless little mud suckers
[16:04:06] -!- SoyCow0066 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
[16:04:09] <nutherguy> =submit https://phys.org
[16:04:54] <RandomFactor> Silt Suckers ftw
[16:05:15] <nutherguy> systemd is feeling chinless this morning?
[16:05:21] <RandomFactor> You killed it earlier
[16:05:36] <nutherguy> I missed it, what did I do? LOL
[16:05:47] <RandomFactor> nutherguy> =submit https://phys.org
[16:05:47] <RandomFactor> [12:01.30] * systemd (~systemd@pid1) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[16:06:17] <nutherguy> Chinless I tell you!!
[16:06:34] <RandomFactor> To the Mooon, Systemd!
[16:06:51] <nutherguy> This apt has supercow powers!
[16:07:29] <nutherguy> $ apt moo
[16:07:29] <nutherguy> (__)
[16:07:29] <nutherguy> (oo)
[16:07:29] <nutherguy> /------\/
[16:07:29] <nutherguy> / | ||
[16:07:30] <nutherguy> * /\---/\
[16:07:32] <nutherguy> ~~ ~~
[16:07:34] <nutherguy> ..."Have you mooed today?"...
[16:08:04] <RandomFactor> -sigh- last bowl of curry. That was such a good batch. RIP
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[16:35:53] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Study: Neanderthal Genes May be Liability for COVID-19 Patients - https://sylnt.us - better-keep-an-eye-on-Ozzy-Osbourne
[16:36:29] -!- Subsentient has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
[16:59:13] <nutherguy> =submit https://phys.org
[17:12:24] -!- SoyCow639 [SoyCow639!~40399c0d@64.57.mnn.vo] has joined #soylent
[17:12:48] <SoyCow639> =submit https://www.bleepingcomputer.com
[17:14:13] <SoyCow639> #smake systemd
[17:14:13] * MrPlow smakes systemd upside the head with one big pile of shit
[17:15:34] <SoyCow639> #submit https://www.bleepingcomputer.com
[17:15:34] <MrPlow> Submitting. There is a mandatory delay, please be patient.
[17:15:57] <SoyCow639> #submit https://www.comparitech.com
[17:16:00] <MrPlow> Submission successful. https://soylentnews.org
[17:16:04] <MrPlow> Submitting. There is a mandatory delay, please be patient.
[17:16:29] <MrPlow> Submission successful. https://soylentnews.org
[17:27:19] -!- systemd [systemd!~systemd@pid1] has joined #soylent
[17:27:44] <nutherguy> =submit https://phys.org
[17:27:47] <systemd> Submitting "Mud-slurping chinless ancestors had all the moves"...
[17:27:57] <nutherguy> He lives!
[17:28:09] <systemd> ✓ Sub-ccess! "03Mud-slurping Chinless Ancestors Had All the Moves" (16 paragraphs) -> https://soylentnews.org
[17:28:30] <nutherguy> =submit https://phys.org
[17:28:34] <chromas> inz: What? You actually get OOM kills on your box? Must be running BSD or something else non-linux
[17:28:40] -!- systemd has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[17:28:58] <nutherguy> Huh - systemd does NOT like that link, does he?
[17:29:14] -!- systemd [systemd!~systemd@pid1] has joined #soylent
[17:29:38] <nutherguy> chromas should I try once more, or is that link really killing the bot?
[17:30:05] <chromas> What's weird is all the output doesn't show up in the systemd journal
[17:30:13] <nutherguy> hmmmmm
[17:30:20] -!- systemd has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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[17:30:40] <chromas> lemme start it from the terminal then you can try
[17:30:53] <chromas> Now I'll get all the outputs
[17:31:17] <chromas> I've been running the bot as a systemd service because that's the only way I can get it to be killed off when it hogs all the memory
[17:31:22] <nutherguy> I'll wait until you say
[17:31:26] <chromas> go for it
[17:31:33] <nutherguy> =submit https://phys.org
[17:31:52] <chromas> oh it's the mysterious "-1" again
[17:32:05] <nutherguy> ahhh, I see
[17:32:25] <nutherguy> I'll submit via the submissions page then
[17:32:27] <nutherguy> sorry
[17:33:49] <nutherguy> Huh - I have like six pages loaded in my browser right now with the dateline 2020-10 in them
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[17:34:49] -!- LinuxSuxx [LinuxSuxx!~LP@603-724-736-251.res.spectrum.com] has joined #soylent
[17:34:57] <LinuxSuxx> Yep it's the memory hog
[17:34:58] -!- SedBot has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
[17:35:05] <nutherguy> =submit https://www.cnet.com
[17:35:27] -!- systemd has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
[17:35:27] <janrinok> do you get the same result with Arthur?
[17:35:41] <nutherguy> Don't remember how to use arthur
[17:35:48] <LinuxSuxx> For whatever reason, the bot wants all the memory on that link and Linux won't say no, no matter how little memory is available, so the whole box just locks up like it's swapping, even when there's no swap
[17:35:56] -!- Cascade has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
[17:36:25] -!- chromas has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
[17:37:01] <nutherguy> #submit https://www.cnet.com
[17:37:01] <MrPlow> Submitting. There is a mandatory delay, please be patient.
[17:37:26] <MrPlow> Submission successful. https://soylentnews.org
[17:37:53] <nutherguy> OK, should I try that sub with MrPlow?
[17:38:28] <nutherguy> #submit https://phys.org
[17:38:29] <MrPlow> got http response code 400
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[17:38:41] -!- mode/#soylent [+v chromas] by Aphrodite
[17:38:45] <LinuxSuxx> woohoo! ctrl-c finally got through
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[17:38:52] <nutherguy> lol
[17:38:58] <LinuxSuxx> linux--
[17:38:58] <Bender> karma - linux: -3
[17:39:14] <nutherguy> MrPlow doesn't seem to like that dateline either
[17:39:28] <janrinok> Arthur seems to cope but I don't know how you interface that to systemd
[17:39:45] <nutherguy> <nutherguy> #submit https://phys.org
[17:39:45] <nutherguy> <MrPlow> got http response code 400
[17:40:04] <chromas> linux--
[17:40:04] <Bender> karma - linux: -4
[17:40:13] <LinuxSuxx> The systemd bot doesn't interface with Arthur at the moment; only the web page does
[17:40:26] <LinuxSuxx> exec did arthur but he's been dead awhile
[17:40:59] <janrinok> why did Arthur die?
[17:41:06] <LinuxSuxx> exec died
[17:41:12] <nutherguy> Oh well, 2020-10 only lasts for a month or so
[17:41:24] <janrinok> ah, was that when we lost cmn's server?
[17:41:43] <LinuxSuxx> cmn32480 was talking about taking down the box exec runs on but I haven't received the zip o' files he was planning to send
[17:42:12] <LinuxSuxx> I could pull code from github but I dunno if he's got any special changes
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[17:44:36] <janrinok> I can zip up the latest I have (v0.5.0e).I'll put together a quick and dirty user guide too.
[17:44:47] <janrinok> a.k.a storybot5
[17:46:28] <chromas> I've got 0.5.0c 20191005-15:39
[17:46:45] <chromas> probably pretty ancient
[17:47:45] <nutherguy> This one is cute: author claims to rely on Facebook for his news?
[17:47:56] <nutherguy> Of course, it's a Rolling Stone article
[17:47:59] <janrinok> not too ancient - just use ./storybot5.py -u [URL]
[17:48:02] <nutherguy> https://www.rollingstone.com
[17:48:07] <systemd> ^ 03I Got All My Debate News from Facebook. How Do You Think It Went?
[17:49:01] <janrinok> you might need to install a few python3 libs but nothing exotic
[17:51:43] <nutherguy> nothing erotic? Not worth doing then . . .
[17:52:19] <janrinok> the ascii art is OK if you squint....
[18:12:48] <Fnord666> janrinok - any chance you could email me a copy of the latest and greatest storybot?
[18:13:01] <Fnord666> or do yo uhave it on a repo somewhere?
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[18:40:41] <inz> chromas, I did, but of course the kills targeted important processes instead of killing for example the spam scripts
[18:42:29] <chromas> oh whew!
[18:47:02] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - After Breach, Twitter Hires a New Cybersecurity Chief - https://sylnt.us - how-secure-are-the-systems-you-work-with?
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[20:39:20] <chromas> https://phys.org
[20:39:21] <systemd> ^ 03Potty training: NASA tests new $23M titanium space toilet
[20:46:31] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Senator Asks DHS If Foreign-Controlled Browser Extensions Threaten the US - https://sylnt.us - do-you-REALLY-need-that?
[20:57:23] <chromas> http://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk
[20:57:24] <systemd> ^ 03Plasma and the systemd startup – David Edmundson's Web Log
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[22:56:12] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - U.S. Army Gets One Step Closer to Laser Gun System - https://sylnt.us - one-eyed-sharks-going-pew-pew-pew?
[23:27:14] -!- driveby [driveby!~amnesia@lkq-odbr-4461.nortor.no] has joined #soylent
[23:34:07] <driveby> https://i.4pcdn.org
[23:34:53] <driveby> https://i.4pcdn.org
[23:35:23] <driveby> https://i.4pcdn.org
[23:35:41] <driveby> https://i.4pcdn.org
[23:36:00] <driveby> https://youtu.be
[23:36:02] <systemd> ^ 03The Green Book - by Muammar al-Qaddafi (full audio rendition) ( https://www.youtube.com )
[23:36:08] <driveby> https://archive.peoplescience.org.uk
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[23:41:31] <FatPhil> why do people call madcow a "liberal"?
[23:42:13] <nutherguy> Because cow lives matter?
[23:43:08] * FatPhil likes milk and steak
[23:43:18] * FatPhil votes cow
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[23:45:34] <Your_Mommas_Bull> Allright! The Jews' mask is slipping!
[23:46:15] <Your_Mommas_Bull> First, with the ADL's condemnation of Trump. That teh SPLC was badmouthed during the last Republican convention was encouraging, i fnot only because the SPLC made themselves an easy target with their scandals.
[23:46:45] <Your_Mommas_Bull> Now with the ADL explicitly taking a side, we can go after them too.
[23:47:17] <Your_Mommas_Bull> And then there's teh deranged ex-Twitter boss who is using calling for murder of the non-woke.
[23:49:41] <Your_Mommas_Bull> Who were the bad guys supposed to be again? Oh right, the Jews, Mexicans, and Chinks.
[23:49:44] <Your_Mommas_Bull> (Daily reminder)
[23:50:43] <Your_Mommas_Bull> Meanwhile, local protests are gaining steam along with the mainsteam belief that some of our city and state leaders are holding us hostage (lockdowns, masks) for political reasons.
[23:51:01] <Your_Mommas_Bull> Whoa, boy...there's gonna be one hell of a backlash once Trump gets re-elected.
[23:51:40] <Your_Mommas_Bull> But since we are better than they are, it won't be violent. In fact, all I'm asking for is the privilege of saying "shut up Jew" at a bar without being charged with a hate crime.
[23:52:23] <Your_Mommas_Bull> Once we get section 230 under control, Twitter and Faceberk will be flooded with the truth.
[23:53:06] <requerdanos> Trolling such a small channel seems little worth it. Why bother?
[23:53:38] <Your_Mommas_Bull> requerdanos, because I am easily amused.
[23:54:14] <Your_Mommas_Bull> Goddamn brother. In a way I'm actually starting to like Jews.
[23:54:25] <requerdanos> if you're that easily amused, try #noonecares
[23:54:28] <Your_Mommas_Bull> Because Jews work for Breitbart and I feel that they are genuinely on our side.
[23:55:08] <Your_Mommas_Bull> All I wanted to see was one counterexample to bad sterrotypes. I've seen positive counterexamples in every race and ethnicity except the Jews
[23:55:34] <Your_Mommas_Bull> But it really wasn't about the journey, just the friends we made along the way. And the Jews of Breitbart have given me a new hope.
[23:55:55] <Your_Mommas_Bull> Hope that Jews can be pro-America.
[23:56:44] <Your_Mommas_Bull> The good Jews of Breitbart were under my nose the whole time, and they told me to click my heels 3 times and say, "There's no place like home..."
[23:56:50] <Your_Mommas_Bull> *WHoodfogofdwensdljglskdgldsfgmlsdkfglnflkwnkjewdnf*
[23:56:55] <Your_Mommas_Bull> *POOF!*
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