#soylent | Logs for 2020-03-04
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[00:11:21] <RandomFactor> =cite 10.1038/s41591-020-0763-1
[00:11:24] <systemd> <p><b>Initial results from a first-in-human gene therapy trial on X-linked retinitis pigmentosa caused by mutations in RPGR</b>, <cite>Nature Medicine</cite> (DOI: <a href="https://doi.org/doi:10.1038/s41591-020-0763-1">doi:10.1038/s41591-020-0763-1</a>)</p>
[00:48:06] <RandomFactor> https://singularityhub.com
[00:48:07] <systemd> ^ 03Gene Therapy Is Successfully Treating a Common Form of Inherited Blindness
[01:16:16] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - The Case for Limiting Your Browser Extensions - https://sylnt.us - good-advice
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[02:34:03] <RandomFactor> Hey Boru
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[02:58:10] * RandomFactor checks primary results.
[02:58:47] * RandomFactor gives up trying to predict primary results for Lent
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[03:13:42] * TheMightyBuzzard is a bloody genius
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[03:14:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> turns out, yes, if you put cream of coconut (the stuff from the liquor store that goes in pina coladas) in chocolate milk, it does indeed taste like a mounds candy bar
[03:16:41] <chromas> But does it have the cookie crunch?
[03:17:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> there's no cookie in mounds, just chocolate and coconut
[03:17:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> #yt sometimes you feel like a nut
[03:17:26] <MrPlow> https://www.youtube.com -- VINTAGE 80'S MOUNDS & ALMOND JOY COMMERCIAL SOMETIMES YOU FEEL LIKE A NUT
[03:18:11] <chromas> =yt seinfeld cookie crunch
[03:18:12] <systemd> https://youtube.com - George Costanza - twix rage part 1 (1:13)
[03:18:21] <chromas> sometimes you don't
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[03:20:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> works just as well for bi chicks
[03:46:52] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Gene Therapy Safety Trial Successfully Treats Common Form of Inherited Blindness - https://sylnt.us - seeing-results
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[04:20:02] <aristarchus> submit=https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2020/03/03/how-kevin-deanna-orchestrated-alt-rights-approach-conservative-institutions
[04:20:03] <systemd> ^ 03How Kevin DeAnna Orchestrated the Alt-Right’s Approach to Conservative Institutions
[04:27:56] <AzumaHazuki> aristarchus: you know it's never gonna get accepted, right? even if you don't troll-editorialize in the sub? :(
[04:28:04] <AzumaHazuki> which is a shame, since it's information people should know
[04:37:58] <aristarchus> Never stopped me before. No reason to stop now?
[04:43:50] <aristarchus> submit=https://pressprogress.ca/internal-emails-contradict-the-university-of-british-columbias-explanation-for-why-it-hosted-an-alt-right-event-on-campus/
[04:43:51] <systemd> ^ 03Internal Emails Contradict the University of British Columbia’s Explanation for Why it Hosted an ‘Alt-Right’ Event on Campus
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[05:06:34] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - The Growth of Command Line Options, 1979-Present - https://sylnt.us - get-off-my-lawn
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[06:56:14] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - New Programming Language Rankings: Python Now as Popular as Java, as TypeScript Climbs - https://sylnt.us - where's-lisp?
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[08:45:56] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Scientists Suggest That Earth Was Covered Entirely With Water 3.2 Billion Years Ago - https://sylnt.us - waterworld
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[09:30:02] <chromas> swapoff is horribly, horribly slow, so to unswap everything, I'm running a long python script I found on stackexchange as root
[09:30:17] * chromas rolls the dice
[09:30:52] <chromas> it's not any faster
[09:31:08] <janrinok> how much memory do you have installed, and what is eating it all up?
[09:31:20] <chromas> only 16 GB but I tried to build waterfox
[09:32:36] <chromas> I should probably reboot. Doing that and reopening everything would take at most 1/40th the time
[09:32:36] <janrinok> I've only got 16Gb too - but I never get a need to swap memory. I haven't built FF for a long time but even then I don't recall seeing any excessive usage that I wasn't expecting.
[09:33:40] <janrinok> I am assuming that your swap in installed on spinning rust and not SSD?
[09:33:47] <chromas> yeah
[09:34:14] <chromas> From what I've read, the swapoff code in linux is retardedly inefficient but nobody cares enough to fix it
[09:34:24] <janrinok> I seem to recall reading advice that suggested SSD should NOT be used for swap, but I can't remember where and why...
[09:35:38] <chromas> I added swap because I figured it'd make things better when a program derps out and eats all the memory. It doesn't.
[09:35:52] <janrinok> ... and there is probably a good reason why xkcd have the 'compiling!' cartoon
[09:38:11] <chromas> Good point. If the computer's busy masturbating, maybe I should be too.
[09:38:15] <chromas> Anybody wanna cross swords?
[09:41:53] <FatPhil> chromas: rather than swapoff (which I've seen lock up), try echo 1 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches
[09:42:53] <chromas> Didn't help. Thanks though
[09:43:04] <chromas> Well at least the computer's not sluggish
[09:43:10] <chromas> Still 636M
[09:44:38] * chromas blames Canada
[09:48:13] <inz> (got the mental image of Ryan Reynolds as deadpool saying "Oh Canada!")
[09:48:25] <FatPhil> janrinok: there's no real issues with modern SSDs and swap, as long as you're not constantly swapping.
[09:48:27] * chromas installs binary waterfox like a pleb
[09:57:03] <chromas> wat
[09:57:15] <chromas> FatPhil was right. palemoon comes with ads now?
[09:58:10] <chromas> it starts out with a tab pointing to https://palemoon.start.me
[09:58:11] <systemd> ^ 03Start - Pale Moon - start.me
[09:58:42] <chromas> I guess it could be non-tracking
[10:00:02] <FatPhil> that page no content has, at least at the security levels I'm prepared to browse at (JS off)
[10:00:50] <chromas> Yes, it seems to use the js and also has google tag manager
[10:01:06] <chromas> oh well. I guess it gets the dev a shekel and I don't have to load it again
[10:01:48] <FatPhil> i have no idea what that tag manager is, but it's one of the domains I've added to the "never trust, and don't even ask me about it" list.
[10:02:34] <chromas> it's part of google anal ytics
[10:11:01] <FatPhil> I hate anal ISIS!
[10:11:47] <FatPhil> right, time to hit the jungle and see what rabid italian/iranian/chinese/korean tourists are in town today...
[10:26:44] <chromas> https://what.thedailywtf.com
[10:26:46] <systemd> ^ 03Enlightened
[10:29:19] <chromas> "An extremely helpful console message: “SPANK! SPANK! SPANK! Naughty programmer!”. Really, I’m not joking about that one."
[10:30:56] <AndyTheAbsurd> ...it's too early in my day for my brain to handle that article.
[10:36:19] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Google Announces "Tidal": An Underwater Camera System for Fish Farmers - https://sylnt.us - I-see-you-little-fishy
[10:37:07] <chromas> Even the fish can't get away from google tracking
[10:38:45] <chromas> But once all the fish are reliant on them, they'll discontinue the cameras like everything else and make them use Android
[11:17:25] <FatPhil> chromas: I worked for Samsung, they employed several very big name EFL guys. I met them once at the Tizen developer's conference. I'll stop there.
[11:17:38] <chromas> No.
[11:17:40] <chromas> Hurt me more!
[11:17:57] <FatPhil> One of them was *very* pro-systemd.
[11:18:18] <chromas> the author seems to be shittalking samsung in the comments too
[11:20:00] <chromas> I didn't know there were any EFL guys though. I just assumed the whole thing was one guy, since rewriting Enlightenment took about the time of two entire rewrites of KDE
[11:21:29] <chromas> "If it's any consolation, after Moblin, Bada, Maemo, Mer, MeeGo and all the other utter failures, nobody really expected Tizen to be much better."
[11:21:52] <chromas> Those weren't all Samsung, were they?
[11:22:10] <FatPhil> Maemo was Nokia
[11:22:44] <chromas> Remember WebOS? I'm surprised that's not getting a revivial
[11:22:51] <chromas> s/i//4
[11:22:53] <exec> <chromas> Remember WebOS? I'm surprised that's not getting a revival
[11:23:03] <chromas> I have the best idea!
[11:23:03] <FatPhil> meego was a collaboration made in hell between companies that had nothing in common (Nokia and Intel)
[11:23:18] <chromas> How about a phone operating systemd based on Electron?
[11:23:38] <chromas> I need help
[11:23:39] <inz> chromas--
[11:23:40] <Bender> karma - chromas: 274
[11:23:41] <chromas> Mentally
[11:23:55] <chromas> I almost always accidentally put a d after system now
[11:23:59] <FatPhil> I still use my n900 (maemo) phone
[11:24:16] <chromas> inz: no no it's a good idea
[11:24:35] <chromas> Imagine the sandboxing of each application having its own entire chromium instance
[11:24:52] <inz> chromas, only if you are a manufacturer of portable cooling systems and huge powerbanks
[11:25:56] <FatPhil> looking forward to Muskix
[11:25:57] <inz> FatPhil, I should probably use my N950, but the "eat your own dogfood" pushes me towards Sony XA2 with SailfishOS
[11:26:12] <chromas> nah it's cool. just use that battery system where you pee on it to recharge
[11:26:28] <chromas> All you have to do is keep the user pissed off and you've got all the power
[11:26:39] <inz> The Bear Grylls of batteries
[11:27:02] * FatPhil picks up an n950 and a Jolla phone and asks himself what inz is talking about
[11:27:55] <inz> My collection is missing the original 770 and N9
[11:27:57] <FatPhil> I have an n9 too (was a "harmattan hero" - so freebie!), but *nothing* can replace n900/maemo for me.
[11:28:20] <chromas> What about Ubuntu Touch?
[11:28:37] <FatPhil> I started late, I have an 810 (the wimax one?), but no 770.
[11:29:20] <inz> My N810s are of the normal flavor
[11:29:32] <inz> The WiMAX one is better looking though (apart from the bulky back)
[11:30:12] <chromas> What're your opinions on QNX/BB10?
[11:30:35] <FatPhil> I'd have to check my stash. I think I have the 800 then, a very boring blocky one.
[11:30:57] <FatPhil> stash is in the office, and I never go to the office nowadays.
[11:31:23] <FatPhil> OK, I have 3 n900s, a Jolla, an n950 and an n9 here, but that's not a stash :)
[11:31:55] <inz> I shamefully totally missed the N900 phase as I was assigned to some less fun projects at that point
[11:32:40] <inz> I have 1 N800, 2 N810, 2 N900 (one with cracked display), Jolla, JollaC and XA2
[11:32:51] <inz> And the N950
[11:33:23] <FatPhil> I have a spare display, that's the only part I've never had fail, so I have loads of spares.
[11:33:27] <chromas> Jolla always makes me think of that prank show
[11:33:49] <chromas> Trigger Happy TV. The guy's name was Dom Joly
[12:25:40] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - This Marsupial is the Only Animal That's Always Pregnant - https://sylnt.us - why-male-wallabies-smile-a-lot
[14:17:03] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Expanding, And Eventually Replacing, The International Space Station - https://sylnt.us - what-goes-up-must-go-down
[14:26:01] <chromas> Embrace, Extend, Extinguish?
[14:38:17] <chromas> You know, the real WTF on thedailywtf.com is the comment system. What retard created it and how did they get through life without a helmet?
[14:49:30] <Bytram> Well, what a chatty bunch!
[14:49:41] * Bytram tries to catch up with backscroll
[14:51:55] <janrinok> It's your own fault for going to bed early!
[14:56:12] <Bytram> janrinok: SSD for swap *sounds* good, but as soon as you get to the point were you need to "garbage collect" and get a new, fresh block to write to, performance takes a major hit. I'm not sure of the exact terminology offhand. Even if I need only 512-bytes, a "block" from which it would be issued is much, much larger... erasing it to make it available for use takes *time*
[14:58:41] <Bytram> Also, potentially (probably mostly historically), there was the matter of only getting so many drive-writes-per-day on a drive... unlike a spinning hard disk where one can write and write and write (AFAIK, basically forever) there are a limited number of writes to SSD storage.
[14:59:53] <chromas> Sounds like the solution is to use a five-disk RAID0 for swap
[14:59:54] <janrinok> As you say, I think that is more historical nowadays. There _will_ be a write limit but it is not something that you see people talking about nowadays#
[15:01:07] <janrinok> A quick goog suggests that 5 years is the minimum time an SSD should last in 'normal office' use
[15:01:49] <chromas> unless they're running firefox where it saves your session every 15 seconds
[15:04:45] * Bytram finally caught up to now
[15:08:05] <Bytram> It also depends on whether your SSD is, SLT, TLD, MLC, or QLC as to how many rewrites a cell can sustain and keep working reliably. Enterprise drives go to the SLC end of things, the cheaper consumer drives are heading from MLC to QLC these days. IIRC, one gets about 5K writes to a QLC before it goes kaput.
[15:10:44] <janrinok> 5000 writes is nothing
[15:11:58] <FatPhil> but that's every block having 5000 writes after wear levelling (and that's shitty QLC, which I still consider not trustworthy tech)
[15:12:39] <FatPhil> real bits should give you 100000 writes.
[15:14:38] <FatPhil> Bytram, the SSD shouldn't lock up on a new block write, as it should be caching in RAM. Hmmm, unless the kernel waits for it to be committed to storage, not sure about that.
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[15:16:38] <Bytram> It has been a while since read up on this, but IIRC, it *may* be possible to get ahead of the SSD controller's ability tohandle TRIMs
[15:17:09] <Bytram> if *that* happens, then writes would stall until a block is freed.
[15:17:43] <chromas> Does the kernel cache swap?
[15:17:58] <Bytram> generally, that should not occur, but if you have a well-used, un-trimmed drive, and then do a sustained write to it... cliff encountered.
[15:18:26] <Bytram> chopchop1: don't know, but I would expect that would require sever pressure on RAM for it to need to do that.
[15:18:47] <janrinok> I think that was to chromas
[15:19:02] <Bytram> that is based on what I tested on VM way back in the day; Linux may do something different...
[15:19:15] <Bytram> tabcomplete--
[15:19:15] <Bender> karma - tabcomplete: -1
[15:19:21] <chromas> Does it seem like technology gets worse as it gets better?
[15:19:49] <chromas> We've got something to replace spinny disks, but you have to write to it in big blocks and it wears out
[15:20:04] <chromas> Finally starting to have LED displays but they're organic so they wear out
[15:20:54] <chromas> Digital video, but we filter most of the data out to save space so if you do multiple generations of editing then it wears out
[15:21:40] <chromas> pulseaudio
[15:22:01] <FatPhil> Anyone who works on lossy can get lost. The signal is king.
[15:22:23] <Bytram> It is pretty amazing to stop and think of how many levels of "cache" there are going from CPU active registers to register banks in the CPU microcode, and then Level 1, 2, and 3 cache, then off to SSD, spinny, and near line storage.
[15:22:24] <chromas> Almost everyone works on lossy though.
[15:22:52] <chromas> Where's level 0 cache? is that the registers?
[15:22:59] <chromas> and do they wear out? :D
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[15:23:51] <Bytram> Oh, and don't forget Optane, too.
[15:24:09] <Bytram> chromas: that does not register
[15:24:30] <FatPhil> in the hierarchy of memory, indeed, registers sometimes have been considered as such.
[15:24:55] * chromas dereferences
[15:25:37] <FatPhil> Where does zero page fit in though!?!?
[15:26:21] <FatPhil> (tecnically, as registers, that's the only sane conclusion)
[15:27:09] <FatPhil> some architectures don't have, depending on your PoV, no registers at all.
[15:27:15] <FatPhil> s/no/any/
[15:27:17] <exec> <FatPhil> some architectures don't have, depending on your PoV, any registers at all.
[15:27:59] <chromas> is there a practical upper limit to number of registers?
[15:28:17] <FatPhil> instruction set size
[15:28:32] <chromas> What if I want a lot of local variables?
[15:29:02] <FatPhil> Processors don't care about what you mean by local variables.
[15:29:04] <Bytram> FatPhil++
[15:29:04] <Bender> karma - fatphil: 55
[15:29:33] <chromas> I just want everything in registers from the beginning. no stack; only register
[15:29:40] <Bytram> Is there a limit to the number of files that can be stored on a 1 GB USB stick?
[15:29:59] <Bytram> chromas: good luck with that.
[15:30:02] <FatPhil> Bytram: depends on the filesystem
[15:30:27] <FatPhil> chromas - what if your registers are a stack - e.g. Sparc, and some others
[15:30:44] * Bytram spent WAY too much time writing / testing IBM 370 assembler code.
[15:31:37] <Bytram> Keeping code to using only registers w/o having to access memory made for a huge performance boost.
[15:33:11] <chromas> What if you had a mediocre processor but with a buttload of l1 cache?
[15:33:42] <chromas> or maybe a mitreload
[15:35:29] <Bytram> chromas: welcome to the dance of the musical-chair-bottleneck. computes, storage. I/O. Once one is improved, it tends to reveal something new as being the slowdown.
[15:36:46] <FatPhil> "Almost all programming can be considered an exercise in caching" -- Terje Mathisen
[15:37:29] <Bytram> FatPhil++ ain't that the truth!
[15:37:29] <Bender> karma - fatphil: 56
[15:38:55] <chromas> I learn so much from you guys. Soon I will be a pro
[15:38:59] * chromas installs Java
[15:40:12] <Bytram> coffee++
[15:40:12] <Bender> karma - coffee: 5123
[15:40:20] * Bytram heads off to get more java
[15:40:23] <Bytram> =)
[15:52:55] <Bytram> break time
[16:15:32] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - New Zealand Birds Show Humanlike Ability to Make Predictions - https://sylnt.us - I-could-have-told-you-that
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[17:56:29] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Judge Vacates Oil and Gas Lease Sales - https://sylnt.us - law-is-the-law
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[18:09:31] <FatPhil> NYT - what you on??? "Three weeks after a man died in Spain, tests showed he had the virus, officials said, in the latest indication that it was spreading undetected for some time."
[18:31:49] <Bytram> FatPhil: Linky?
[19:00:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> quick heads up before i split back to the church: have a look at the current funding level. takyon serendipity, that is.
[19:01:17] <FatPhil> Bytram: they've completely changed the stort since that copy/paste
[19:02:12] * Bytram goes tolook
[19:05:52] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: Not following what you mean about funding level... based on the email I got from Matt, I discovered it cost more per year than I had thought and changed the funding goal, appropriately... I plan to put up a story about it, after I get the P&L statements and Balance sheet files brought over to beryllium so I can link to them from the wiki
[19:06:15] * Bytram is not having much luck trying to access his email on boron
[19:08:00] * Bytram had sent those files as attachments to an email he sent to himself so he could download them, there.
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[19:08:11] <Bytram> hi guy!
[19:08:29] -!- guy_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[19:08:44] <janrinok> looks like you said something ....
[19:09:03] guy is now known as SoyGuest87533
[19:10:38] <Bytram> "something"
[19:10:46] <Bytram> ^^^ like that?
[19:10:52] <Bytram> =)
[19:10:58] <janrinok> ... but i'm still here!
[19:11:28] <Bytram> janrinok: Hey! Quick question for ya? I've got some pdf files that i want to get over to beryllium so I can link to them from the wiki...
[19:11:38] <janrinok> yup
[19:11:48] <Bytram> I am NOT having much luck atm (well, plenty of bad luck).
[19:12:03] <janrinok> where are they now?
[19:12:21] <Bytram> If I sent 'em to you as an email, any chance you could get them there where I could access them?
[19:12:29] <Bytram> on my home pc (Huey)
[19:12:46] <janrinok> what can I do that you cannot? You even have more privs than I do
[19:13:11] <Bytram> more knowledge/experince with, say, scp.
[19:13:52] <Bytram> I tried emailing them to myself,but it had been so long since I tried using email over there, not sure that I can make that work, without a lot of frustration.
[19:46:09] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Unstable Rock Pillars Near Reservoirs Can Produce Dangerous Water Waves - https://sylnt.us - we-all-fall-down
[21:37:32] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Intel's Process Nodes Will Trail Behind Competitors Until at Least Late 2021 - https://sylnt.us - shrinking-lead
[22:27:26] <chromas> https://i.imgur.com
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[22:50:58] <FatPhil> tongue not mentioned, therefore safe!
[23:11:08] <AndyTheAbsurd> If I say "buh-gok", you all INSTANTLY know the image I mean, right?
[23:13:15] <chromas> the two-panel pointing chicken?
[23:13:26] <AndyTheAbsurd> Yup.
[23:14:50] <AndyTheAbsurd> On another note:
[23:15:39] <AndyTheAbsurd> what does the t in a Unix file's permissions being d-wxrwxr-t. mean?
[23:16:46] <chromas> terrific
[23:19:03] -!- carny has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[23:19:06] <chromas> t for time to leave
[23:19:19] <chromas> Next time we'll use a capital T so they know we really mean business!
[23:20:08] -!- carny [carny!~irc@sliggdwopagcywn.media.mit.edu] has joined #soylent
[23:20:26] <chromas> According to the internets though it's the Sticky Bit™ to cockblock other users from renaming or deleting
[23:28:55] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - UNISOC Announces T7520 SoC for 5G Smartphones - https://sylnt.us - unisoc---what-you-have-after-the-dryer-finishes