#soylent | Logs for 2019-12-18
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[01:45:54] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Googler Says She was Fired for Telling Colleagues about Worker Rights - https://sylnt.us - with-great-responsibility
[02:01:02] <Cascade> First they came for the white men, then the Asian men, then what appears to be a tranny
[02:02:01] * Cascade computes the privilege points
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[03:35:43] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Internet of Crap (Encryption): IoT Gear is Generating Easy-To-Crack Keys - https://sylnt.us - random-error
[04:26:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> #submit https://www.washingtonexaminer.com Not interested in any bets myself but I'll keep records if you lot feel the need.
[04:26:26] <MrPlow> Submitting. There is a mandatory delay, please be patient.
[04:26:52] <MrPlow> Submission successful. https://soylentnews.org
[04:28:03] <Runaway1956> Funny how lawmakers presume that the National Guard will actually take action agasint the populace. Most of the NG members are probably gun owners.
[04:29:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> funny how the lawmakers think the national guard can even win
[04:29:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> there are a fuuuuuuckload more private gun owners in virginia than virginia national guard
[04:30:15] <Runaway1956> I dunno - I've participated in quelling a riot. One well armed, well disciplined individual can intimidate a hundred people, or more
[04:30:44] <Runaway1956> but, you're right, the numbers don't even favor the guard
[04:30:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> not when those people have rifles and fortified positions
[04:31:25] <Runaway1956> The question boils down to, are the Dems insane enough to start the war?
[04:31:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> which is completely leaving aside how many people would join them
[04:31:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> possibly, should be entertaining to find out
[04:32:18] <Runaway1956> I think a large percentage of the Guard would cross over to the other side though, so there would never be a real, major confrontation
[04:32:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> i mean, look at how many folks came to the aid of the bundys and that was just over cows.
[04:32:49] <Runaway1956> few little skirmishes, here and there, and the "lawmakers" will retreat to the cities with their tails between their legs
[04:33:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> prolly, yep. ain't easy convincing a teenaged kid to shoot his grammy, even if she does have a shotgun on her lap
[04:33:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> sheit, the cities have just as many guns. they're just held by illegally by felons.
[04:34:56] <Runaway1956> The lawmakers won't send the guard into the ghettos to fuck with their major constituency
[04:35:08] <Runaway1956> Welfare queens gotta have their guns
[04:36:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> you know, if they were willing to allow us a bit of a profit, they'd probably do pretty well with a gun buyback.
[04:36:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> mind you, we'd take the money and spend it on new guns.
[04:39:06] <Runaway1956> LOL, that is exactly what a lot of people do - they take an old rusty POS that they were considering scrapping, turn it in, and go buy a new gun
[04:43:04] <Runaway1956> LOL - I just asked 'Zumi if she wants to dance - https://soylentnews.org
[04:43:05] <systemd> ^ 03SoylentNews Comments | 93 Virginia Jurisdictions Second Amendment Sanctuaries ( https://soylentnews.org )
[04:50:43] <Runaway1956> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com
[04:50:44] <systemd> ^ 03Give the Gift of Ultimate Firepower With DriveTanks.com - The Truth About Guns
[04:52:09] <Runaway1956> You gotta look at that LGBT T-shirt! Priceless!
[05:04:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> i like the ones with titties instead of trump
[05:04:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> 8008135++
[05:04:37] <Bender> karma - 8008135: 129
[05:04:52] <Runaway1956> That would look better
[05:05:00] <Cascade> Yes. Less hate, more 'bate.
[05:06:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> !grab Cascade
[05:06:27] <Bender> Added quote 933
[05:24:23] <AzumaHazuki> i think i may be triggering runaway
[05:24:44] <AzumaHazuki> the hilarious thing is, every time i hint that hey, maybe he's being a total stereotype and should lay off a bit...well, he does that :D
[05:27:06] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Lawyers Want Quadriga CX Crypto Exchange Exec who Died Owing $190m Exhumed and Autopsied - https://sylnt.us - conspiracy-theory-or-an-effective-ruse
[05:52:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> i think the conversations you believe you're having are not the ones others believe they are having with you. isn't there an internet law something to that effect?
[05:52:56] <AzumaHazuki> yeah, it's "people like you and Runaway are broken nonfunctional shells of human beings"
[05:53:11] <AzumaHazuki> face it, you two are several cards short of a full deck. you don't human very well.
[05:53:49] <AzumaHazuki> honestly, i'm just waiting for him to suddenly stop showing up one day, as it means he will have had the inevitable stroke or heart attack
[05:55:13] * TheMightyBuzzard chuckles
[05:55:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> you have no idea about the people you're talking to. just this handy little mental strawman.
[05:56:11] <AzumaHazuki> keep telling yourself that :) you're the idiot who couldn't logic his way out of a paper bag
[05:56:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> if you have to keep telling people how you're winning arguments, you're not winning them.
[05:56:50] <AzumaHazuki> i have seriously met high schoolers who have a better grip on moral philosophy and logic than you do. i'm actually wondering if you're just pretending.
[05:57:05] * TheMightyBuzzard shurgs
[05:57:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> not my fault you can't allow yourself to even listen to what i say
[05:57:29] <AzumaHazuki> like "jesus, he can NOT be THAT stupid can he? with what he knows how to do with code?" But...well, maybe you can
[05:57:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> every reply you make misunderstands at least one key bit of what i've said when talking morality
[05:58:06] <Runaway1956> Oh, wait - she is going to judge intelligence based on code writing skills?
[05:58:18] <AzumaHazuki> if morals are just aesthetic judgments, your "shoulds" have no force, end of story
[05:58:19] <Runaway1956> Then I get to judge intelligence on fix-it skills
[05:58:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> Runaway1956, fuck, i hope not. i often code before my coffee's kicked in.
[05:58:37] <AzumaHazuki> they mean shit. they mean precisely as much as your preference for a given taste or color
[05:59:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, listen very carefully: everyone's morality has force *to them*.
[05:59:34] <Runaway1956> and THAT is where so many lefties truly fuck up - I don't give two shits or a small rat's ass what color anyone is
[05:59:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> nobody's morality has force beyond themselves, unless they decide to physically inflict it on others.
[05:59:51] <AzumaHazuki> yes, and...?
[06:00:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> that directly refutes what you just said
[06:00:21] <AzumaHazuki> no, it doesn't...?
[06:01:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, you were wanting a reason to force your morality on others? some magic sky fairy? sorry, even a magic sky fairy can't make anyone hold your morality.
[06:01:13] <Runaway1956> Hey, Buzzard, ask the silly which of the philosopher's she subscribes to
[06:01:25] <AzumaHazuki> uh, no. you've...not even lost the thread, you never found the thread
[06:01:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> nobody on this earth holds the same morality as anyone else. they all differ.
[06:02:07] <AzumaHazuki> okay, moral nihilism/anti-realism. we've been over this. what the fuck's your point?
[06:02:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> neither
[06:02:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> your morality matters both to you and to others (insofar as it dictates your actions)
[06:02:53] <AzumaHazuki> see, at the bottom of all this is you sitting there screaming "fuck you i won't do what you tell me." But...I'm...not trying to make you...?
[06:03:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> but there is and can not be morality that exists beyond a human mind. that is the only place it is capable of existing.
[06:03:00] <AzumaHazuki> you're completely off in the grass somewhere
[06:03:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, i'm bitchslapping you with logic
[06:03:27] <AzumaHazuki> and actually, primatologists have seen morals in our close relatives.
[06:03:33] <AzumaHazuki> you need to read some de Waal
[06:03:52] <Runaway1956> No logic here, just emotions and feelz
[06:04:04] <AzumaHazuki> so at the very least, change that to "beyond the mind of a reasonably intelligent, sentient, and (probably) social being"
[06:04:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> something resembling, yes. we're not speaking zoology though.
[06:04:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> semantics
[06:04:34] <AzumaHazuki> oh yes we are. morality is older than humanity. it's an epiphenomenon
[06:04:42] <AzumaHazuki> intelligence + social species = morals
[06:05:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> nope. that's evolved behavior. no sentience necessary.
[06:05:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can witness it in any species.
[06:05:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> well most anyway
[06:05:31] <AzumaHazuki> er, no, you can't. amoebae don't have it
[06:05:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> ants do
[06:05:47] <AzumaHazuki> really now? prove it
[06:06:05] <AzumaHazuki> show me exactly where morality becomes distinct from "evolved behaior"
[06:06:09] * TheMightyBuzzard points at the hierarchy and self-sacrifice
[06:06:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> where sentience exists
[06:06:30] <AzumaHazuki> so ants are sentient?
[06:06:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> ants don't think about thinking, so no
[06:06:41] <AzumaHazuki> we have the term "hive mind" for a reason
[06:07:02] <Runaway1956> Ahhhhh - the hive mind of the socialists
[06:07:04] <AzumaHazuki> ...wait, so ants aren't sentient, but morality exists where sentience exists, but ants have...morals...WTAF
[06:07:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> you're arguing exactly what i said the opposite of
[06:07:21] <AzumaHazuki> you typo'd something somewhere then
[06:07:24] <Runaway1956> if everyone works hard and gives away what they make and earn, everyone will be happy
[06:07:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> ants do NOT have morality, they have evolved self-sacrifice
[06:07:54] <AzumaHazuki> no shit
[06:07:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> you have to be able to reconsider and change your behavior for morality to even be relevant
[06:08:23] <AzumaHazuki> are you going somewhere with this?
[06:08:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> if you can't, it's stupid to even talk about. choice is necessary for morality to mean anything, so sentience is necessary.
[06:09:05] <AzumaHazuki> hidden in your "argument" is an implicit false wall of separation between humans and other sentient, intelligent species
[06:09:25] <AzumaHazuki> you need to study some primatology, as well as some of the work on elephants, whales, and dolphins
[06:09:26] <Runaway1956> it must be pretty well hidden
[06:09:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> why, pray tell, are you trying to sidetrack the conversation into talking about animals? losing too badly?
[06:09:45] * AzumaHazuki facedesks
[06:10:21] <AzumaHazuki> look, dipshit, the crux of your problem is you're assuming moral facts include some sort of Platonic list of "thou shalt nots" or some Kantian absolute somewhere
[06:10:31] <AzumaHazuki> the one does not imply the other
[06:10:35] * Runaway1956 picks up the desk and plants it on her face again
[06:10:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> do please enlighten me then
[06:11:09] <Runaway1956> Ha ha! Dipshit!! Take that, Buzzard!! Everyone's an idiot except 'Zumi!
[06:11:11] <AzumaHazuki> and to escape this, because good grief your whole worldview is "fuck you i won't do what you tell me," you decide to plunge into moral antirealism
[06:11:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh no, if you're going to say i'm wrong, you're going to say how.
[06:11:37] <Runaway1956> YOU HAVE NO AURHORITY TO TELL US WHAT TO DO YOU SILLY BITCH!!
[06:11:46] <AzumaHazuki> yes, individual moral *judgments* exist solely in the single, isolated minds of the sentients making them...but these are not made in vacuum
[06:12:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> no shit, sherlock. they are controlled in a vacuum though.
[06:12:39] <AzumaHazuki> wrong. the very machinery that allows morals to be made is an evolutionary artifact. one in constant communication with outside reality, including other sentients
[06:12:47] <AzumaHazuki> you commit a stolen concept fallacy
[06:12:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> external influences are influences only. they can be ignored entirely. you could scrap your entire morality tomorrow and write a new one.
[06:13:24] <AzumaHazuki> wrong. some things are human universals, and this is only explainable because of what we are, where we came from, our evolutionary lineage, and our environment
[06:13:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, they are not. you need to get out more.
[06:13:52] <AzumaHazuki> funny, i didn't think I'd hear the old 70s-style "blank slate" fallacy from you
[06:14:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> please, read history then. morality has swung from actually believing might makes right to you believing might makes wrong
[06:14:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> unless it's your might, then it's perfectly okay
[06:15:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, i guess it hasn't changed all that much
[06:15:05] <AzumaHazuki> according to you, there is no difference since it's just an aesthetic judgment
[06:15:08] <Runaway1956> she seems to have some need to feel like she's a part of that whole globalist thing - every woman in Africa, Asia, or wherever is her closest sister
[06:15:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> to the person holding it? sure, no difference. for interaction with others? plenty of difference.
[06:16:12] <AzumaHazuki> but since internally it makes no difference, you need something outside morality entirely. what is that then? what gives you the right to "should" your mere aesthetics on anyone else?
[06:16:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> bad question. my should explicitly excludes pushing my morality on others.
[06:16:46] <Runaway1956> has she gone full circle yet?
[06:17:03] <AzumaHazuki> okay, and why "should" anyone else care?
[06:17:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> about my morality? because it affects them
[06:17:42] <Runaway1956> Yes, 'Zumi, why "should" anyone give one small fuck about you and the whole LBGTWXYZ shit?
[06:17:44] <AzumaHazuki> you prefer not to (hah!) but so what? why "should" anyone else prefer not to, what makes your "should" better than theirs, and what the fuck are you gonna do about it if someone disagrees?
[06:17:58] <AzumaHazuki> you have degenerated straight into "might makes right"
[06:18:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> see, you're the one being nihilistic
[06:18:20] <AzumaHazuki> just following your worldview to its logical conclusion :D
[06:18:35] <Runaway1956> ROFLMAO, this is hilarious
[06:18:36] <AzumaHazuki> if morals only hold force inside a single mind, "should" means nothing to anyone else
[06:18:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, you're putting words in my mouth because the ones that come out are kicking your ass
[06:18:50] <AzumaHazuki> ...are you serious right now? LOL
[06:18:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes
[06:19:07] <AzumaHazuki> one more time: you yourself said morals hold only in the individual minds that come up with them
[06:19:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> you're either being intentionally obtuse or intentionally disingenuous
[06:19:33] <AzumaHazuki> you and someone else have different "shoulds." What makes one better than another, and why would anyone else give a shit when you make a moral judgment?
[06:19:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> what makes one better than another is "this one is mine"
[06:20:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can see it play out all through history and you still deny it
[06:20:06] <AzumaHazuki> why does that make it better? "Better" is a moral judgment
[06:20:25] <AzumaHazuki> of course you think yours are better, they're yours. but...are they? how would we know?
[06:20:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> because it's the one i have chosen. i'm hardly going to choose one i think is worse, now am i?
[06:20:45] <AzumaHazuki> okay, but outside your own skull...what does it matter?
[06:20:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> to a hydrogen atom? it doesn't.
[06:21:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> to whom?
[06:21:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can't have a verb like matter without an object
[06:21:30] <AzumaHazuki> to anyone-not-you. since it's just aesthetics, every other sentient can reply to any moral statement you make with a yawn
[06:22:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, because i might decide to believe that human sacrifice was the way to go and that would inconvenience a lot of folks.
[06:22:17] <AzumaHazuki> okay, and?
[06:22:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> inconvenienced folks tend to not appreciate being inconvenienced
[06:22:30] <AzumaHazuki> and?
[06:22:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> and nothing. that's why and how it matters.
[06:22:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> to them
[06:22:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> you asked, i answered
[06:22:56] <AzumaHazuki> which is a moral judgment on their and your part
[06:23:01] <AzumaHazuki> a shared one. an interpersonal one
[06:23:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, no, it's subjective to each.
[06:23:21] <AzumaHazuki> subjective, yes, but interpersonal
[06:23:35] <AzumaHazuki> by definition, since there is a person other than you involved when the rubber hits the road
[06:23:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> and?
[06:23:46] <Runaway1956> I think the point she may be trying to make is, some people share her morals, so that makes her right and you wrong
[06:24:02] * TheMightyBuzzard shurgs at Runaway1956
[06:24:11] <AzumaHazuki> and this: you are committing a stolen concept fallacy. you wish to keep morals entirely within the confines of a single mind. they are by definition interpersonal
[06:24:30] <AzumaHazuki> you argue about a concept which includes an interpersonal component as if it did not
[06:24:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> of course they are. they tell us how to not be shitheads.
[06:24:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can't be a shithead to a rock.
[06:24:47] <AzumaHazuki> who says what's being a shithead and not?
[06:24:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> you do
[06:24:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> i do
[06:25:15] <AzumaHazuki> who cares what you and i think aside from you and i respectively, in your worldview, and what does it matter, since it's nothing more than a preference?
[06:25:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> we occasionally agree but that's just culture
[06:25:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's a preference that can cause you to kill people, so i'd think lots of people should care.
[06:26:23] <AzumaHazuki> okay, but why in your worldview should someone who prefers to kill care what others think?
[06:26:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> because it might inconvenience them
[06:26:50] <AzumaHazuki> so?
[06:26:56] * TheMightyBuzzard shurgs
[06:27:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> maybe they don't like wearing orange
[06:27:09] <AzumaHazuki> why is it bad that they be inconvenienced? in your worldview
[06:27:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> maybe they don't want to miss the next episode of batwoman
[06:27:32] <AzumaHazuki> okay, and what, in your worldview, does any of that matter to Mr. Vol Opt?
[06:27:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> because they find it unpleasant. it makes not a shit to me if they don't like it.
[06:27:53] <AzumaHazuki> so if you decided you preferred to kill...?
[06:28:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> plenty of people have
[06:28:19] <AzumaHazuki> and what, in your worldview, makes that wrong?
[06:28:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> what about it?
[06:28:33] <AzumaHazuki> that ----------------^
[06:28:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> nothing would if i decided that. i follow my morality.
[06:29:20] <AzumaHazuki> okay, so we've established that if you preferred to kill, it would not be wrong, because you "follow your morality." Which has force only inside your skull.
[06:29:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> now lots of other folks wouldn't like it and would consider it wrong but their morality is not mine
[06:30:07] <AzumaHazuki> now what if someone a good deal stronger than you took issue with this, and decided that s/he preferred to capture and imprison and torture you for committing a few murders you preferred to?
[06:30:17] <AzumaHazuki> what objection do you have? what objection COULD you have?
[06:30:24] <AzumaHazuki> and what would back it up or ground it?
[06:30:38] * TheMightyBuzzard sighs
[06:30:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> morality is not grounded in anything.
[06:30:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> it is personal.
[06:31:11] <AzumaHazuki> yes, and someone has decided to get very personal indeed with your viscera by means of a pair of redhot pincers
[06:31:15] <AzumaHazuki> are they wrong?
[06:31:24] <AzumaHazuki> they prefer to, you see
[06:31:26] <Runaway1956> apparently, "legal" and "moral" are equal?
[06:31:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> i can object for any reason i like. i can object because he's not doing it right or because it's tuesday.
[06:31:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, let me give you a handy example
[06:31:50] <AzumaHazuki> okay, and what's the point? he prefers to do it that way
[06:32:08] <AzumaHazuki> you say he's doing it wrong, but he prefers it that way and his morality says he's doing it right
[06:32:21] <AzumaHazuki> what do you say then, aside from variations on the Wilhelm scream?
[06:32:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> you really can't stfu and listen, can you?
[06:32:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> i dislike islamic terrorists but i do not call them evil. evil is not necessary for me to want someone dead. wanting to kill me is sufficient.
[06:33:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> now python devs are evil but that is another matter
[06:33:38] <AzumaHazuki> but their preferences differ from yours, there are more of them, they fight better than you, and they can kill you
[06:33:46] <AzumaHazuki> what you do nao, ese?
[06:33:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> to the islamic terrorist, he is doing a holy thing. to me he is doing a very bad thing. we are both correct.
[06:34:23] <Runaway1956> I almost missed that - she wants you to take a victim's position here
[06:34:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> what i do is irrelevant to what morality is.
[06:34:30] <Runaway1956> dems always want to be the victims
[06:34:42] <AzumaHazuki> ah, there's the problem. it's possible neither of you are correct, or only one of you is. or that there is no way to be correct here. you assume a binary state when the answer may be
[06:34:45] -!- carny has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[06:34:46] <AzumaHazuki> "mu"
[06:34:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> there is no correct
[06:35:06] <AzumaHazuki> but if there is no correct, how can you be both correct?
[06:35:20] <AzumaHazuki> and if there is no correct, how can you know that there is no correct?
[06:35:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> no particles of correct exist in the universe. it is a concept only in the individual mind.
[06:35:38] <AzumaHazuki> well, yeah, you'll get no argument from me there
[06:35:42] <Runaway1956> OMG, no God particles?
[06:35:57] * TheMightyBuzzard glances at Runaway1956
[06:36:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> ~define farticle
[06:36:02] <exec> [local] farticle: What you call one tiny bubble out of all the bubbles when you fart in the tub.
[06:36:11] -!- carny [carny!~irc@45.14.wru.tt] has joined #soylent
[06:36:38] <Runaway1956> Hey, are you watching me take a bath?
[06:37:01] <AzumaHazuki> Moral Platonism is wrong, yes. Provably so. So...how in the everloving hell did you manage to go from "moral Platonism is provably, logically incorrect
[06:37:05] <AzumaHazuki> to...well, this?
[06:37:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> nothing i've said has changed in any way, you just finally listened.
[06:37:38] * AzumaHazuki facepalms
[06:37:54] <AzumaHazuki> i was never arguing for moral Platonism or Kantian ethics to begin with
[06:38:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> look, no matter what you call your external judge, morality cannot exist outside the individual human mind.
[06:38:35] <AzumaHazuki> you got so close, so close, to understanding when you said earlier that it's impossible to be immoral to a rock.
[06:39:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh i understand what you mean. you're just wrong.
[06:39:49] <AzumaHazuki> wrong. the individual sentient mind is one piece of moral machinery. morality is an evolutionary epiphenomenon. a single, solitary mind would never have evolved morals, as the concept is impossible (and this is a counterapologetic i wish more people ran...)
[06:39:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> you think humanity defines its own universally true morality as it goes along.
[06:40:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> so?
[06:40:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> how it got here has nothing to do with what it is
[06:40:31] <AzumaHazuki> so your entire argument, that morals could have arisen and exist solely in the vacuum of a single mind, is false
[06:40:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> no
[06:40:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> that is not my argument
[06:40:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> i give not a fuck how they arose
[06:40:51] <AzumaHazuki> yes, the individual judgments are made in single minds. they are not made in vacuum or ex nihilo
[06:41:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> they provably do exist only in individual minds though
[06:41:31] <AzumaHazuki> yes, individual judgments are made by the individual
[06:41:46] <AzumaHazuki> but in context of literally the entire rest of the universe
[06:42:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> the rest of the universe will eventually die of heat death, so nihilism is technically right but that's no way to live your life.
[06:42:50] <AzumaHazuki> entropy's a bitch, ain't it?
[06:42:58] <AzumaHazuki> but back up a moment
[06:43:00] <AzumaHazuki> 01:29 <+TheMightyBuzzard> morality is not grounded in anything.
[06:43:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> specially when you're working crypto
[06:43:18] <Runaway1956> she just doesn't listen, as you said earlier - which is proven by the fact that she has me on "ignore"
[06:43:31] <AzumaHazuki> do you understand quite what the term "grounding" means in this context?
[06:43:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> apparently not as you're using it
[06:43:59] <AzumaHazuki> supervenience. the "moral machiery" i keep talking about. the very next line was
[06:44:02] <AzumaHazuki> 01:29 <+TheMightyBuzzard> it is personal.
[06:44:15] <AzumaHazuki> so that's a contradiction. it is grounded in something.
[06:44:54] <AzumaHazuki> older than humanity, (possibly) younger than intelligence, probably not younger than sentience by much if at all. it is grounded in these things
[06:45:30] <AzumaHazuki> divine command theorists say it's grounded in divine fiat; moral Platonists just s/God/$SOMETHING_ELSE/
[06:47:12] <AzumaHazuki> see if you can find a copy of de Waal's "Our Inner Ape" in pdf form somewhere on the 'web. It's very instructive
[06:47:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm a guy. i long ago inspected and embraced my inner ape.
[06:47:57] <AzumaHazuki> missing the point here...
[06:48:06] <AzumaHazuki> that book will fill in some of the knowledge gaps
[06:48:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes, the point is you're trying to say blah blah blah redefinition of "grounded in" to mean "these things are necessary for blah to exist"
[06:48:58] <AzumaHazuki> necessary, and give rise to. supervenience or emergence
[06:49:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> they do not in fact necessarily give rise to
[06:49:22] <AzumaHazuki> it's like how glucose supervenes on/emerges from hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, and the specific pattern thereof
[06:49:54] <AzumaHazuki> nothing about those in isolation would predict glucose, and certainly not life or metabolism
[06:50:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> you're boring the shit out of me with irrelevancies right now and i really need a cigarette.
[06:50:25] <Runaway1956> Did she just say that if I mix up a bunch of C's H's and O's I'll get sugar?
[06:50:54] <AzumaHazuki> sorry, can't hear you over that rousing rendition of "brave sir robin" from somewhere...
[06:51:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> continue on if you like, i'll be back in a few
[06:51:09] <AzumaHazuki> anyway, do find and read that book
[06:56:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> don't believe i could make myself if it's going to spout stupid all the way through
[06:56:43] <AzumaHazuki> it's not, don't worry. very educational, if a bit...detailed...about ape behavior at times
[06:57:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> incorrect statements do not become correct by thoroughly explaining them using concepts that you've invented to justify your incorrectness. understanding that makes listening to or reading stupid very difficult to me.
[06:58:12] <AzumaHazuki> and yet i still put up with you
[06:58:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> but i do dig me a good ape stuff
[06:58:21] * AzumaHazuki wonders if she's some kind of masochist
[06:58:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> see, told you
[06:59:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> you heard it here folks, i won an argument with azuma! masochist it is!
[06:59:29] <AzumaHazuki> we didn't disagree on that
[06:59:31] * TheMightyBuzzard chuckles
[06:59:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, you said sadist
[06:59:37] <AzumaHazuki> i've suspected for a while now
[06:59:46] <AzumaHazuki> maybe i'm a switch?
[06:59:57] * TheMightyBuzzard flips AzumaHazuki off
[07:00:14] * AzumaHazuki is on a UPS. Suck it Vadim!
[07:00:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> your turn next time. you get to splain and i'll pick apart.
[07:01:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> 1am though and oh shit i just opened another coke
[07:01:30] <AzumaHazuki> all this did is reinforce in real time my suspicion that you haven't got some fairly important bits of human function up there
[07:01:31] * TheMightyBuzzard is going to get like 2h of sleep before the coffee maker goes off
[07:01:42] <AzumaHazuki> i'd love to see your fMRI scans in certain contexts
[07:02:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> you need to stop that. you'll never learn anything if you go looking for the answers you want.
[07:02:58] <AzumaHazuki> it just wouldn't be you without some hardcore projection, would it?
[07:03:10] <AzumaHazuki> i know, i know, you found your answers. that should be an enormous warning bell
[07:03:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh i ain't perfect but i introspect my ass off
[07:03:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> you make me an argument i can get behind and i will
[07:03:59] <AzumaHazuki> a car on a jack can spin its wheels and get nowhere...
[07:04:36] <Cascade> That's why you jack it off first
[07:04:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> ~grab Cascade
[07:04:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, right
[07:04:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> !grab Cascade
[07:04:52] <Bender> Added quote 934
[07:05:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> i find new ideas to add to my collection by trying to pick them apart. when i can't anymore, i add them. arguing is me outsourcing some of the work.
[07:07:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> except this town having a local ordinance about keeping your lawn mowed or them doing it and billing you. as much as i dislike government overreach, that one i have a hard time disliking.
[07:07:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> philosophically i disagree but the results are quite pleasant
[07:08:26] <AzumaHazuki> (hint: that is a consequentialist moral framework)
[07:09:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, morally i think it's wrong still, i just have a hard time living up to that particular bit of my morality
[07:10:13] <AzumaHazuki> so either a failure or morals, or a success with an egoistic/hedonistic baseline
[07:10:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> failure of morals
[07:10:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> big things are easy but petty things are strangely more difficult
[07:11:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> or possibly i'm just a grass snob
[07:16:27] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Hugging Face Raises $15 Million to Build "Open Source Community for Conversational AI" - https://sylnt.us - NOT-the-Alien's-Face-Hugger
[07:16:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> anyway, i need to do something boring in the hopes of getting any sleep before my alarm goes off in 4.75 hours
[07:18:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> shit, 3.75 hours. stupid tired math.
[07:53:56] <Runaway1956> Did she fall over, and go to sleep yet?
[07:54:30] * Runaway1956 wanders off for a bath
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[09:16:32] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Secret FISA Court Issues Highly Unusual Public Rebuke of FBI for Mistakes - https://sylnt.us - follow-the-rules
[09:45:40] <Cascade> Does that include the mistake of existing though?
[11:06:21] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Complete Human Genome Extracted from Ancient "Chewing Gum" - https://sylnt.us - did-they-find-it-on-a-bedpost?
[12:55:42] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Where's Our Data, Google? Chrome 79 Update 'a Catastrophe' for Android Devs with WebView Apps - https://sylnt.us - now-you-see-it-now-you-don't
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[14:35:57] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - IFixit Surgeons Dissect Apple's Pricey Mac Pro: Industry Standard Sockets? Repair Diagrams? Really? - https://sylnt.us - sudden-outbreak-of-common-sense?
[15:01:59] <AndyTheAbsurd> The Gävle goat is not yet on fire.
[15:02:02] <AndyTheAbsurd> I am disappoint.
[15:13:14] <chopchop1> dam son
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[16:26:54] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Hottest Day of December on Record in Australia - Most of It Over 42C - https://sylnt.us - let-it-snow-let-it-snow-let-it-snow
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[16:48:36] <FatPhil> OK, KK
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[18:11:06] <guy> You leave that old goat alone andytheabsurd
[18:16:17] <AndyTheAbsurd> I'm not anywhere near Gävle. I'm not even in Europe!
[18:16:43] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - NASA's Quiet Supersonic Plane Cleared for Final Assembly - https://sylnt.us - whisper-boom
[18:42:14] <FatPhil> I might be nearest, ~300-350km I guess
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[20:06:04] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - VPNs Fade From Popularity as Awareness Rises for Zero Trust - https://sylnt.us - what's-old-is-new-again
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[21:56:27] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Nvidia Announces "Orin" Automotive SoC for 2022 Release - https://sylnt.us - brains-of-the-operation
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[23:45:49] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Human Skin as Non-Volatile Memory - https://sylnt.us - Information-is-only-skin-deep