#soylent | Logs for 2019-12-18
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[23:45:49] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Human Skin as Non-Volatile Memory - https://sylnt.us - Information-is-only-skin-deep
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[21:56:27] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Nvidia Announces "Orin" Automotive SoC for 2022 Release - https://sylnt.us - brains-of-the-operation
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[20:06:04] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - VPNs Fade From Popularity as Awareness Rises for Zero Trust - https://sylnt.us - what's-old-is-new-again
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[18:42:14] <FatPhil> I might be nearest, ~300-350km I guess
[18:16:43] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - NASA's Quiet Supersonic Plane Cleared for Final Assembly - https://sylnt.us - whisper-boom
[18:16:17] <AndyTheAbsurd> I'm not anywhere near Gävle. I'm not even in Europe!
[18:11:06] <guy> You leave that old goat alone andytheabsurd
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[16:48:36] <FatPhil> OK, KK
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[16:26:54] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Hottest Day of December on Record in Australia - Most of It Over 42C - https://sylnt.us - let-it-snow-let-it-snow-let-it-snow
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[15:13:14] <chopchop1> dam son
[15:02:02] <AndyTheAbsurd> I am disappoint.
[15:01:59] <AndyTheAbsurd> The Gävle goat is not yet on fire.
[14:35:57] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - IFixit Surgeons Dissect Apple's Pricey Mac Pro: Industry Standard Sockets? Repair Diagrams? Really? - https://sylnt.us - sudden-outbreak-of-common-sense?
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[12:55:42] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Where's Our Data, Google? Chrome 79 Update 'a Catastrophe' for Android Devs with WebView Apps - https://sylnt.us - now-you-see-it-now-you-don't
[11:06:21] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Complete Human Genome Extracted from Ancient "Chewing Gum" - https://sylnt.us - did-they-find-it-on-a-bedpost?
[09:45:40] <Cascade> Does that include the mistake of existing though?
[09:16:32] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Secret FISA Court Issues Highly Unusual Public Rebuke of FBI for Mistakes - https://sylnt.us - follow-the-rules
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[07:54:30] * Runaway1956 wanders off for a bath
[07:53:56] <Runaway1956> Did she fall over, and go to sleep yet?
[07:18:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> shit, 3.75 hours. stupid tired math.
[07:16:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> anyway, i need to do something boring in the hopes of getting any sleep before my alarm goes off in 4.75 hours
[07:16:27] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Hugging Face Raises $15 Million to Build "Open Source Community for Conversational AI" - https://sylnt.us - NOT-the-Alien's-Face-Hugger
[07:11:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> or possibly i'm just a grass snob
[07:10:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> big things are easy but petty things are strangely more difficult
[07:10:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> failure of morals
[07:10:13] <AzumaHazuki> so either a failure or morals, or a success with an egoistic/hedonistic baseline
[07:09:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, morally i think it's wrong still, i just have a hard time living up to that particular bit of my morality
[07:08:26] <AzumaHazuki> (hint: that is a consequentialist moral framework)
[07:07:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> philosophically i disagree but the results are quite pleasant
[07:07:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> except this town having a local ordinance about keeping your lawn mowed or them doing it and billing you. as much as i dislike government overreach, that one i have a hard time disliking.
[07:05:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> i find new ideas to add to my collection by trying to pick them apart. when i can't anymore, i add them. arguing is me outsourcing some of the work.
[07:04:52] <Bender> Added quote 934
[07:04:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> !grab Cascade
[07:04:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, right
[07:04:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> ~grab Cascade
[07:04:36] <Cascade> That's why you jack it off first
[07:03:59] <AzumaHazuki> a car on a jack can spin its wheels and get nowhere...
[07:03:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> you make me an argument i can get behind and i will
[07:03:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh i ain't perfect but i introspect my ass off
[07:03:10] <AzumaHazuki> i know, i know, you found your answers. that should be an enormous warning bell
[07:02:58] <AzumaHazuki> it just wouldn't be you without some hardcore projection, would it?
[07:02:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> you need to stop that. you'll never learn anything if you go looking for the answers you want.
[07:01:42] <AzumaHazuki> i'd love to see your fMRI scans in certain contexts
[07:01:31] * TheMightyBuzzard is going to get like 2h of sleep before the coffee maker goes off
[07:01:30] <AzumaHazuki> all this did is reinforce in real time my suspicion that you haven't got some fairly important bits of human function up there
[07:01:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> 1am though and oh shit i just opened another coke
[07:00:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> your turn next time. you get to splain and i'll pick apart.
[07:00:14] * AzumaHazuki is on a UPS. Suck it Vadim!
[06:59:57] * TheMightyBuzzard flips AzumaHazuki off
[06:59:46] <AzumaHazuki> maybe i'm a switch?
[06:59:37] <AzumaHazuki> i've suspected for a while now
[06:59:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, you said sadist
[06:59:31] * TheMightyBuzzard chuckles
[06:59:29] <AzumaHazuki> we didn't disagree on that
[06:59:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> you heard it here folks, i won an argument with azuma! masochist it is!
[06:58:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> see, told you
[06:58:21] * AzumaHazuki wonders if she's some kind of masochist
[06:58:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> but i do dig me a good ape stuff
[06:58:12] <AzumaHazuki> and yet i still put up with you
[06:57:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> incorrect statements do not become correct by thoroughly explaining them using concepts that you've invented to justify your incorrectness. understanding that makes listening to or reading stupid very difficult to me.
[06:56:43] <AzumaHazuki> it's not, don't worry. very educational, if a bit...detailed...about ape behavior at times
[06:56:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> don't believe i could make myself if it's going to spout stupid all the way through
[06:51:09] <AzumaHazuki> anyway, do find and read that book
[06:51:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> continue on if you like, i'll be back in a few
[06:50:54] <AzumaHazuki> sorry, can't hear you over that rousing rendition of "brave sir robin" from somewhere...
[06:50:25] <Runaway1956> Did she just say that if I mix up a bunch of C's H's and O's I'll get sugar?
[06:50:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> you're boring the shit out of me with irrelevancies right now and i really need a cigarette.
[06:49:54] <AzumaHazuki> nothing about those in isolation would predict glucose, and certainly not life or metabolism
[06:49:22] <AzumaHazuki> it's like how glucose supervenes on/emerges from hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, and the specific pattern thereof
[06:49:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> they do not in fact necessarily give rise to
[06:48:58] <AzumaHazuki> necessary, and give rise to. supervenience or emergence
[06:48:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes, the point is you're trying to say blah blah blah redefinition of "grounded in" to mean "these things are necessary for blah to exist"
[06:48:06] <AzumaHazuki> that book will fill in some of the knowledge gaps
[06:47:57] <AzumaHazuki> missing the point here...
[06:47:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm a guy. i long ago inspected and embraced my inner ape.
[06:47:12] <AzumaHazuki> see if you can find a copy of de Waal's "Our Inner Ape" in pdf form somewhere on the 'web. It's very instructive
[06:45:30] <AzumaHazuki> divine command theorists say it's grounded in divine fiat; moral Platonists just s/God/$SOMETHING_ELSE/
[06:44:54] <AzumaHazuki> older than humanity, (possibly) younger than intelligence, probably not younger than sentience by much if at all. it is grounded in these things
[06:44:15] <AzumaHazuki> so that's a contradiction. it is grounded in something.
[06:44:02] <AzumaHazuki> 01:29 <+TheMightyBuzzard> it is personal.
[06:43:59] <AzumaHazuki> supervenience. the "moral machiery" i keep talking about. the very next line was
[06:43:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> apparently not as you're using it
[06:43:31] <AzumaHazuki> do you understand quite what the term "grounding" means in this context?
[06:43:18] <Runaway1956> she just doesn't listen, as you said earlier - which is proven by the fact that she has me on "ignore"
[06:43:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> specially when you're working crypto
[06:43:00] <AzumaHazuki> 01:29 <+TheMightyBuzzard> morality is not grounded in anything.
[06:42:58] <AzumaHazuki> but back up a moment
[06:42:50] <AzumaHazuki> entropy's a bitch, ain't it?
[06:42:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> the rest of the universe will eventually die of heat death, so nihilism is technically right but that's no way to live your life.
[06:41:46] <AzumaHazuki> but in context of literally the entire rest of the universe
[06:41:31] <AzumaHazuki> yes, individual judgments are made by the individual
[06:41:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> they provably do exist only in individual minds though
[06:40:51] <AzumaHazuki> yes, the individual judgments are made in single minds. they are not made in vacuum or ex nihilo
[06:40:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> i give not a fuck how they arose
[06:40:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> that is not my argument
[06:40:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> no
[06:40:31] <AzumaHazuki> so your entire argument, that morals could have arisen and exist solely in the vacuum of a single mind, is false
[06:40:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> how it got here has nothing to do with what it is
[06:40:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> so?
[06:39:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> you think humanity defines its own universally true morality as it goes along.
[06:39:49] <AzumaHazuki> wrong. the individual sentient mind is one piece of moral machinery. morality is an evolutionary epiphenomenon. a single, solitary mind would never have evolved morals, as the concept is impossible (and this is a counterapologetic i wish more people ran...)
[06:39:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh i understand what you mean. you're just wrong.
[06:38:35] <AzumaHazuki> you got so close, so close, to understanding when you said earlier that it's impossible to be immoral to a rock.
[06:38:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> look, no matter what you call your external judge, morality cannot exist outside the individual human mind.
[06:37:54] <AzumaHazuki> i was never arguing for moral Platonism or Kantian ethics to begin with
[06:37:38] * AzumaHazuki facepalms
[06:37:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> nothing i've said has changed in any way, you just finally listened.
[06:37:05] <AzumaHazuki> to...well, this?
[06:37:01] <AzumaHazuki> Moral Platonism is wrong, yes. Provably so. So...how in the everloving hell did you manage to go from "moral Platonism is provably, logically incorrect
[06:36:38] <Runaway1956> Hey, are you watching me take a bath?
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[06:36:02] <exec> [local] farticle: What you call one tiny bubble out of all the bubbles when you fart in the tub.
[06:36:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> ~define farticle
[06:35:57] * TheMightyBuzzard glances at Runaway1956
[06:35:42] <Runaway1956> OMG, no God particles?
[06:35:38] <AzumaHazuki> well, yeah, you'll get no argument from me there
[06:35:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> no particles of correct exist in the universe. it is a concept only in the individual mind.
[06:35:20] <AzumaHazuki> and if there is no correct, how can you know that there is no correct?
[06:35:06] <AzumaHazuki> but if there is no correct, how can you be both correct?
[06:34:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> there is no correct
[06:34:46] <AzumaHazuki> "mu"
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[06:34:42] <AzumaHazuki> ah, there's the problem. it's possible neither of you are correct, or only one of you is. or that there is no way to be correct here. you assume a binary state when the answer may be
[06:34:30] <Runaway1956> dems always want to be the victims
[06:34:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> what i do is irrelevant to what morality is.
[06:34:23] <Runaway1956> I almost missed that - she wants you to take a victim's position here
[06:33:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> to the islamic terrorist, he is doing a holy thing. to me he is doing a very bad thing. we are both correct.
[06:33:46] <AzumaHazuki> what you do nao, ese?
[06:33:38] <AzumaHazuki> but their preferences differ from yours, there are more of them, they fight better than you, and they can kill you
[06:33:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> now python devs are evil but that is another matter
[06:32:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> i dislike islamic terrorists but i do not call them evil. evil is not necessary for me to want someone dead. wanting to kill me is sufficient.
[06:32:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> you really can't stfu and listen, can you?
[06:32:21] <AzumaHazuki> what do you say then, aside from variations on the Wilhelm scream?
[06:32:08] <AzumaHazuki> you say he's doing it wrong, but he prefers it that way and his morality says he's doing it right
[06:31:50] <AzumaHazuki> okay, and what's the point? he prefers to do it that way
[06:31:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, let me give you a handy example
[06:31:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> i can object for any reason i like. i can object because he's not doing it right or because it's tuesday.
[06:31:26] <Runaway1956> apparently, "legal" and "moral" are equal?
[06:31:24] <AzumaHazuki> they prefer to, you see
[06:31:15] <AzumaHazuki> are they wrong?
[06:31:11] <AzumaHazuki> yes, and someone has decided to get very personal indeed with your viscera by means of a pair of redhot pincers
[06:30:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> it is personal.
[06:30:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> morality is not grounded in anything.
[06:30:38] * TheMightyBuzzard sighs
[06:30:24] <AzumaHazuki> and what would back it up or ground it?
[06:30:17] <AzumaHazuki> what objection do you have? what objection COULD you have?
[06:30:07] <AzumaHazuki> now what if someone a good deal stronger than you took issue with this, and decided that s/he preferred to capture and imprison and torture you for committing a few murders you preferred to?
[06:29:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> now lots of other folks wouldn't like it and would consider it wrong but their morality is not mine
[06:29:20] <AzumaHazuki> okay, so we've established that if you preferred to kill, it would not be wrong, because you "follow your morality." Which has force only inside your skull.
[06:28:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> nothing would if i decided that. i follow my morality.
[06:28:33] <AzumaHazuki> that ----------------^
[06:28:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> what about it?
[06:28:19] <AzumaHazuki> and what, in your worldview, makes that wrong?
[06:28:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> plenty of people have
[06:27:53] <AzumaHazuki> so if you decided you preferred to kill...?
[06:27:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> because they find it unpleasant. it makes not a shit to me if they don't like it.
[06:27:32] <AzumaHazuki> okay, and what, in your worldview, does any of that matter to Mr. Vol Opt?
[06:27:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> maybe they don't want to miss the next episode of batwoman
[06:27:09] <AzumaHazuki> why is it bad that they be inconvenienced? in your worldview
[06:27:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> maybe they don't like wearing orange
[06:26:56] * TheMightyBuzzard shurgs
[06:26:50] <AzumaHazuki> so?
[06:26:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> because it might inconvenience them
[06:26:23] <AzumaHazuki> okay, but why in your worldview should someone who prefers to kill care what others think?
[06:25:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's a preference that can cause you to kill people, so i'd think lots of people should care.
[06:25:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> we occasionally agree but that's just culture
[06:25:15] <AzumaHazuki> who cares what you and i think aside from you and i respectively, in your worldview, and what does it matter, since it's nothing more than a preference?
[06:24:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> i do
[06:24:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> you do
[06:24:47] <AzumaHazuki> who says what's being a shithead and not?
[06:24:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can't be a shithead to a rock.
[06:24:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> of course they are. they tell us how to not be shitheads.
[06:24:30] <AzumaHazuki> you argue about a concept which includes an interpersonal component as if it did not
[06:24:11] <AzumaHazuki> and this: you are committing a stolen concept fallacy. you wish to keep morals entirely within the confines of a single mind. they are by definition interpersonal
[06:24:02] * TheMightyBuzzard shurgs at Runaway1956
[06:23:46] <Runaway1956> I think the point she may be trying to make is, some people share her morals, so that makes her right and you wrong
[06:23:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> and?
[06:23:35] <AzumaHazuki> by definition, since there is a person other than you involved when the rubber hits the road
[06:23:21] <AzumaHazuki> subjective, yes, but interpersonal
[06:23:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, no, it's subjective to each.
[06:23:01] <AzumaHazuki> a shared one. an interpersonal one
[06:22:56] <AzumaHazuki> which is a moral judgment on their and your part
[06:22:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> you asked, i answered
[06:22:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> to them
[06:22:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> and nothing. that's why and how it matters.
[06:22:30] <AzumaHazuki> and?
[06:22:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> inconvenienced folks tend to not appreciate being inconvenienced
[06:22:17] <AzumaHazuki> okay, and?
[06:22:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, because i might decide to believe that human sacrifice was the way to go and that would inconvenience a lot of folks.
[06:21:30] <AzumaHazuki> to anyone-not-you. since it's just aesthetics, every other sentient can reply to any moral statement you make with a yawn
[06:21:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can't have a verb like matter without an object
[06:21:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> to whom?
[06:20:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> to a hydrogen atom? it doesn't.
[06:20:45] <AzumaHazuki> okay, but outside your own skull...what does it matter?
[06:20:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> because it's the one i have chosen. i'm hardly going to choose one i think is worse, now am i?
[06:20:25] <AzumaHazuki> of course you think yours are better, they're yours. but...are they? how would we know?
[06:20:06] <AzumaHazuki> why does that make it better? "Better" is a moral judgment
[06:20:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can see it play out all through history and you still deny it
[06:19:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> what makes one better than another is "this one is mine"
[06:19:33] <AzumaHazuki> you and someone else have different "shoulds." What makes one better than another, and why would anyone else give a shit when you make a moral judgment?
[06:19:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> you're either being intentionally obtuse or intentionally disingenuous
[06:19:07] <AzumaHazuki> one more time: you yourself said morals hold only in the individual minds that come up with them
[06:18:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes
[06:18:50] <AzumaHazuki> ...are you serious right now? LOL
[06:18:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, you're putting words in my mouth because the ones that come out are kicking your ass
[06:18:36] <AzumaHazuki> if morals only hold force inside a single mind, "should" means nothing to anyone else
[06:18:35] <Runaway1956> ROFLMAO, this is hilarious
[06:18:20] <AzumaHazuki> just following your worldview to its logical conclusion :D
[06:18:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> see, you're the one being nihilistic
[06:17:58] <AzumaHazuki> you have degenerated straight into "might makes right"
[06:17:44] <AzumaHazuki> you prefer not to (hah!) but so what? why "should" anyone else prefer not to, what makes your "should" better than theirs, and what the fuck are you gonna do about it if someone disagrees?
[06:17:42] <Runaway1956> Yes, 'Zumi, why "should" anyone give one small fuck about you and the whole LBGTWXYZ shit?
[06:17:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> about my morality? because it affects them
[06:17:03] <AzumaHazuki> okay, and why "should" anyone else care?
[06:16:46] <Runaway1956> has she gone full circle yet?
[06:16:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> bad question. my should explicitly excludes pushing my morality on others.
[06:16:12] <AzumaHazuki> but since internally it makes no difference, you need something outside morality entirely. what is that then? what gives you the right to "should" your mere aesthetics on anyone else?
[06:15:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> to the person holding it? sure, no difference. for interaction with others? plenty of difference.
[06:15:08] <Runaway1956> she seems to have some need to feel like she's a part of that whole globalist thing - every woman in Africa, Asia, or wherever is her closest sister
[06:15:05] <AzumaHazuki> according to you, there is no difference since it's just an aesthetic judgment
[06:15:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, i guess it hasn't changed all that much
[06:14:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> unless it's your might, then it's perfectly okay
[06:14:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> please, read history then. morality has swung from actually believing might makes right to you believing might makes wrong
[06:13:52] <AzumaHazuki> funny, i didn't think I'd hear the old 70s-style "blank slate" fallacy from you
[06:13:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, they are not. you need to get out more.
[06:13:24] <AzumaHazuki> wrong. some things are human universals, and this is only explainable because of what we are, where we came from, our evolutionary lineage, and our environment
[06:12:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> external influences are influences only. they can be ignored entirely. you could scrap your entire morality tomorrow and write a new one.
[06:12:47] <AzumaHazuki> you commit a stolen concept fallacy
[06:12:39] <AzumaHazuki> wrong. the very machinery that allows morals to be made is an evolutionary artifact. one in constant communication with outside reality, including other sentients
[06:12:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> no shit, sherlock. they are controlled in a vacuum though.
[06:11:46] <AzumaHazuki> yes, individual moral *judgments* exist solely in the single, isolated minds of the sentients making them...but these are not made in vacuum
[06:11:37] <Runaway1956> YOU HAVE NO AURHORITY TO TELL US WHAT TO DO YOU SILLY BITCH!!
[06:11:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh no, if you're going to say i'm wrong, you're going to say how.
[06:11:11] <AzumaHazuki> and to escape this, because good grief your whole worldview is "fuck you i won't do what you tell me," you decide to plunge into moral antirealism
[06:11:09] <Runaway1956> Ha ha! Dipshit!! Take that, Buzzard!! Everyone's an idiot except 'Zumi!
[06:10:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> do please enlighten me then
[06:10:35] * Runaway1956 picks up the desk and plants it on her face again
[06:10:31] <AzumaHazuki> the one does not imply the other
[06:10:21] <AzumaHazuki> look, dipshit, the crux of your problem is you're assuming moral facts include some sort of Platonic list of "thou shalt nots" or some Kantian absolute somewhere
[06:09:45] * AzumaHazuki facedesks
[06:09:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> why, pray tell, are you trying to sidetrack the conversation into talking about animals? losing too badly?
[06:09:26] <Runaway1956> it must be pretty well hidden
[06:09:25] <AzumaHazuki> you need to study some primatology, as well as some of the work on elephants, whales, and dolphins
[06:09:05] <AzumaHazuki> hidden in your "argument" is an implicit false wall of separation between humans and other sentient, intelligent species
[06:08:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> if you can't, it's stupid to even talk about. choice is necessary for morality to mean anything, so sentience is necessary.
[06:08:23] <AzumaHazuki> are you going somewhere with this?
[06:07:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> you have to be able to reconsider and change your behavior for morality to even be relevant
[06:07:54] <AzumaHazuki> no shit
[06:07:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> ants do NOT have morality, they have evolved self-sacrifice
[06:07:24] <Runaway1956> if everyone works hard and gives away what they make and earn, everyone will be happy
[06:07:21] <AzumaHazuki> you typo'd something somewhere then
[06:07:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> you're arguing exactly what i said the opposite of
[06:07:04] <AzumaHazuki> ...wait, so ants aren't sentient, but morality exists where sentience exists, but ants have...morals...WTAF
[06:07:02] <Runaway1956> Ahhhhh - the hive mind of the socialists
[06:06:41] <AzumaHazuki> we have the term "hive mind" for a reason
[06:06:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> ants don't think about thinking, so no
[06:06:30] <AzumaHazuki> so ants are sentient?
[06:06:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> where sentience exists
[06:06:09] * TheMightyBuzzard points at the hierarchy and self-sacrifice
[06:06:05] <AzumaHazuki> show me exactly where morality becomes distinct from "evolved behaior"
[06:05:47] <AzumaHazuki> really now? prove it
[06:05:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> ants do
[06:05:31] <AzumaHazuki> er, no, you can't. amoebae don't have it
[06:05:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> well most anyway
[06:05:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can witness it in any species.
[06:05:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> nope. that's evolved behavior. no sentience necessary.
[06:04:42] <AzumaHazuki> intelligence + social species = morals
[06:04:34] <AzumaHazuki> oh yes we are. morality is older than humanity. it's an epiphenomenon
[06:04:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> semantics
[06:04:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> something resembling, yes. we're not speaking zoology though.
[06:04:04] <AzumaHazuki> so at the very least, change that to "beyond the mind of a reasonably intelligent, sentient, and (probably) social being"
[06:03:52] <Runaway1956> No logic here, just emotions and feelz
[06:03:33] <AzumaHazuki> you need to read some de Waal
[06:03:27] <AzumaHazuki> and actually, primatologists have seen morals in our close relatives.
[06:03:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, i'm bitchslapping you with logic
[06:03:00] <AzumaHazuki> you're completely off in the grass somewhere
[06:03:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> but there is and can not be morality that exists beyond a human mind. that is the only place it is capable of existing.
[06:02:53] <AzumaHazuki> see, at the bottom of all this is you sitting there screaming "fuck you i won't do what you tell me." But...I'm...not trying to make you...?
[06:02:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> your morality matters both to you and to others (insofar as it dictates your actions)
[06:02:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> neither
[06:02:07] <AzumaHazuki> okay, moral nihilism/anti-realism. we've been over this. what the fuck's your point?
[06:01:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> nobody on this earth holds the same morality as anyone else. they all differ.
[06:01:25] <AzumaHazuki> uh, no. you've...not even lost the thread, you never found the thread
[06:01:13] <Runaway1956> Hey, Buzzard, ask the silly which of the philosopher's she subscribes to
[06:01:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, you were wanting a reason to force your morality on others? some magic sky fairy? sorry, even a magic sky fairy can't make anyone hold your morality.
[06:00:21] <AzumaHazuki> no, it doesn't...?
[06:00:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> that directly refutes what you just said
[05:59:51] <AzumaHazuki> yes, and...?
[05:59:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> nobody's morality has force beyond themselves, unless they decide to physically inflict it on others.
[05:59:34] <Runaway1956> and THAT is where so many lefties truly fuck up - I don't give two shits or a small rat's ass what color anyone is
[05:59:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> AzumaHazuki, listen very carefully: everyone's morality has force *to them*.
[05:58:37] <AzumaHazuki> they mean shit. they mean precisely as much as your preference for a given taste or color
[05:58:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> Runaway1956, fuck, i hope not. i often code before my coffee's kicked in.
[05:58:19] <Runaway1956> Then I get to judge intelligence on fix-it skills
[05:58:18] <AzumaHazuki> if morals are just aesthetic judgments, your "shoulds" have no force, end of story
[05:58:06] <Runaway1956> Oh, wait - she is going to judge intelligence based on code writing skills?
[05:57:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> every reply you make misunderstands at least one key bit of what i've said when talking morality
[05:57:29] <AzumaHazuki> like "jesus, he can NOT be THAT stupid can he? with what he knows how to do with code?" But...well, maybe you can
[05:57:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> not my fault you can't allow yourself to even listen to what i say
[05:57:05] * TheMightyBuzzard shurgs
[05:56:50] <AzumaHazuki> i have seriously met high schoolers who have a better grip on moral philosophy and logic than you do. i'm actually wondering if you're just pretending.
[05:56:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> if you have to keep telling people how you're winning arguments, you're not winning them.
[05:56:11] <AzumaHazuki> keep telling yourself that :) you're the idiot who couldn't logic his way out of a paper bag
[05:55:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> you have no idea about the people you're talking to. just this handy little mental strawman.
[05:55:13] * TheMightyBuzzard chuckles
[05:53:49] <AzumaHazuki> honestly, i'm just waiting for him to suddenly stop showing up one day, as it means he will have had the inevitable stroke or heart attack
[05:53:11] <AzumaHazuki> face it, you two are several cards short of a full deck. you don't human very well.
[05:52:56] <AzumaHazuki> yeah, it's "people like you and Runaway are broken nonfunctional shells of human beings"
[05:52:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> i think the conversations you believe you're having are not the ones others believe they are having with you. isn't there an internet law something to that effect?
[05:27:06] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Lawyers Want Quadriga CX Crypto Exchange Exec who Died Owing $190m Exhumed and Autopsied - https://sylnt.us - conspiracy-theory-or-an-effective-ruse
[05:24:44] <AzumaHazuki> the hilarious thing is, every time i hint that hey, maybe he's being a total stereotype and should lay off a bit...well, he does that :D
[05:24:23] <AzumaHazuki> i think i may be triggering runaway
[05:06:27] <Bender> Added quote 933
[05:06:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> !grab Cascade
[05:05:00] <Cascade> Yes. Less hate, more 'bate.
[05:04:52] <Runaway1956> That would look better
[05:04:37] <Bender> karma - 8008135: 129
[05:04:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> 8008135++
[05:04:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> i like the ones with titties instead of trump
[04:52:09] <Runaway1956> You gotta look at that LGBT T-shirt! Priceless!
[04:50:44] <systemd> ^ 03Give the Gift of Ultimate Firepower With DriveTanks.com - The Truth About Guns
[04:50:43] <Runaway1956> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com
[04:43:05] <systemd> ^ 03SoylentNews Comments | 93 Virginia Jurisdictions Second Amendment Sanctuaries ( https://soylentnews.org )
[04:43:04] <Runaway1956> LOL - I just asked 'Zumi if she wants to dance - https://soylentnews.org
[04:39:06] <Runaway1956> LOL, that is exactly what a lot of people do - they take an old rusty POS that they were considering scrapping, turn it in, and go buy a new gun
[04:36:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> mind you, we'd take the money and spend it on new guns.
[04:36:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> you know, if they were willing to allow us a bit of a profit, they'd probably do pretty well with a gun buyback.
[04:35:08] <Runaway1956> Welfare queens gotta have their guns
[04:34:56] <Runaway1956> The lawmakers won't send the guard into the ghettos to fuck with their major constituency
[04:33:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> sheit, the cities have just as many guns. they're just held by illegally by felons.
[04:33:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> prolly, yep. ain't easy convincing a teenaged kid to shoot his grammy, even if she does have a shotgun on her lap
[04:32:49] <Runaway1956> few little skirmishes, here and there, and the "lawmakers" will retreat to the cities with their tails between their legs
[04:32:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> i mean, look at how many folks came to the aid of the bundys and that was just over cows.
[04:32:18] <Runaway1956> I think a large percentage of the Guard would cross over to the other side though, so there would never be a real, major confrontation
[04:31:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> possibly, should be entertaining to find out
[04:31:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> which is completely leaving aside how many people would join them
[04:31:25] <Runaway1956> The question boils down to, are the Dems insane enough to start the war?
[04:30:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> not when those people have rifles and fortified positions
[04:30:44] <Runaway1956> but, you're right, the numbers don't even favor the guard
[04:30:15] <Runaway1956> I dunno - I've participated in quelling a riot. One well armed, well disciplined individual can intimidate a hundred people, or more
[04:29:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> there are a fuuuuuuckload more private gun owners in virginia than virginia national guard
[04:29:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> funny how the lawmakers think the national guard can even win
[04:28:03] <Runaway1956> Funny how lawmakers presume that the National Guard will actually take action agasint the populace. Most of the NG members are probably gun owners.
[04:26:52] <MrPlow> Submission successful. https://soylentnews.org
[04:26:26] <MrPlow> Submitting. There is a mandatory delay, please be patient.
[04:26:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> #submit https://www.washingtonexaminer.com Not interested in any bets myself but I'll keep records if you lot feel the need.
[03:35:43] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Internet of Crap (Encryption): IoT Gear is Generating Easy-To-Crack Keys - https://sylnt.us - random-error
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[02:02:01] * Cascade computes the privilege points
[02:01:02] <Cascade> First they came for the white men, then the Asian men, then what appears to be a tranny
[01:45:54] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Googler Says She was Fired for Telling Colleagues about Worker Rights - https://sylnt.us - with-great-responsibility
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