#Soylent | Logs for 2019-09-23
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[00:27:55] <SoyCow9594> gre
[00:27:57] <SoyCow9594> et
[00:28:51] <SoyCow9594> greets all, black6host here. Seem the META page is my homepage now even though the link says only soylentnew.org. I don't have a homepage, just the default
[00:30:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> SoyCow9594, huh, that's odd
[00:31:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> like your browser homepage or the default page you get when you hit soylentnews.org?
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[00:41:57] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: I saw some weird stuff, too. Loaded the editor Stories page on my mobile and saw ONLY meta stories listed
[00:42:55] <Bytram> booted up my lappy (win 7 pro x64) and it looks okay, but... nearly had a heart attack when I saw that happen on my mobile
[00:52:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> bounced, we'll see.
[00:57:06] <Bytram> obliged
[01:07:15] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - North America Loses 3 Billion Birds in 50 Years - https://sylnt.us - better-go-find-me-some-more-worms
[01:08:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> check the couch cushions
[01:13:38] <Bytram> that would be an... "interesting" place to keep your worms
[01:13:42] <Bytram> nograb
[02:13:03] <chromas> https://www.youtube.com
[02:13:04] <upstart> ^ 03Black Hat 2013 - Exploiting Network Surveillance Cameras Like a Hollywood Hacker
[02:13:04] <exec> └─ 13Black Hat 2013 - Exploiting Network Surveillance Cameras Like a Hollywood Hacker - YouTube
[02:13:17] <chromas> The exploits remind me of the Belkin router we used to have
[02:13:31] <chromas> stored the admin password in javascript in the login page
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[02:42:24] <AzumaHazuki> xfce makes a better trinity/kde 3.5 than plasma 4 or 5 do. makes gtk3 almost, almost, bearable
[02:47:34] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - UK Mobile Phone Carrier 'Three' Slammed for 'Ripping Off' Loyal Mobile Customers by £32.4M Per Year - https://sylnt.us - "reducing-bills-is-not-in-customers'-best-interests"
[03:00:29] <chromas> AzumaHazuki: what distro? does it have the gtk3-mushrooms package?
[03:00:34] * chromas tries void linux
[03:04:15] * chromas sees artix/arch in the irc log. they already have de-dumbified gtk3 I guess
[03:04:41] <AzumaHazuki> how do you de-dumbify gtk3?
[03:04:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> openbox/lxde and the -gtk3 USE flag ftw
[03:05:07] <chromas> disable client-side decorations and stuff
[03:05:17] <chromas> tweak the dialogs to be slightly less pants-on-head
[03:05:27] <AzumaHazuki> oh gods, you mean most people using gtk3 are getting something worse than what i see?
[03:05:29] * TheMightyBuzzard dearly lurves him some gtk2
[03:05:46] <AzumaHazuki> ye gods, me too. if it comes to that I may just run lxde with xfwm4 in place of openbox
[03:05:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> chromas, headpants bigot
[03:06:01] <chromas> I just saw a thread earlier from 2013 or so where they tried putting dialog buttons in the titlebar
[03:06:07] <AzumaHazuki> ...
[03:06:21] <AzumaHazuki> ow, my INT
[03:06:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> i run xfdesktop but nothing else from xfce
[03:06:32] <chromas> well here's an example https://python-gtk-3-tutorial.readthedocs.io
[03:06:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> wait, where does pcmanfm come from?
[03:06:53] <AzumaHazuki> i've seen that kind of thing before. on an iDevice.
[03:07:16] <chromas> ocmanfm came from lxde I think
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[03:07:27] <chromas> s/o/p/
[03:07:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep, just the desktop then.
[03:07:28] <AzumaHazuki> oh hell, that's it, isn't it? gtk3 is being developed by rich 20somethings who've been pozzed with AIV since childhood?
[03:07:29] <exec> <chromas> pcmanfm came from lxde I think
[03:07:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> sorta. more their parents have money than they do.
[03:09:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> what's annoying is i could almost get away entirely without qt except for qmmp and k3b
[03:10:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> almost makes me wish they weren't so exactly what i want
[03:10:24] <AzumaHazuki> audacious and xfburn?
[03:10:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> no comparison. k3b is hands down the best disc burning software for linux.
[03:10:46] <chromas> qt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gtk though
[03:11:05] * AzumaHazuki wonders if lxqt is ever going to get its shit together re: theming
[03:11:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> audacious is okay but only okay
[03:11:20] <AzumaHazuki> i've made a few lxqt panel themes to make it not look like ass, actually
[03:12:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> i can't do lxqt. i'll just give up and use ordinary old openbox when they abandon lxde.
[03:13:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> we should start our own tk. with blackjack and hookers.
[03:13:23] <chromas> soylenTK
[03:13:58] * TheMightyBuzzard was thinking FUTK
[03:13:59] <chromas> I'm a qt fanboi, but there's still some gtk applications with no qt alternatives, like pidgin
[03:15:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> qt tries to be all of the things and it shows in the bloat. gtk3 tries to be so simple you can't do anything with it.
[03:15:44] <chromas> simple. le hue
[03:15:51] <AzumaHazuki> and somehow feels bloatier than qt
[03:16:08] <AzumaHazuki> xfce is nice and quick though so maybe that;s just gnome and cinnamon and mate
[03:16:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> simple here meaning lack of options
[03:16:34] <chromas> oh, then you should love guhnome 3
[03:17:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> real options not apple options
[03:17:03] <chromas> "If you have sensible defaults then you don't have to confuse people with complicated configuration"
[03:17:05] <AzumaHazuki> gnome 3 is an abomination on a laptop. it would be perfect for a tablet
[03:17:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> tablet just needs a browser. a whole OS is overkill.
[03:17:58] <chromas> I used Win8/10 on a tablet awhile back. Even that was much better than Android. Mobile UIs are teh s uck
[03:18:14] * TheMightyBuzzard boggles at chromas
[03:18:34] * chromas scrabbles at TheMightyBuzzard
[03:19:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> you are on teh drugs. my tablet is x64 win8 and i despise it. loads pornhub in palemoon just fine though.
[03:19:24] <chromas> put 10 on it
[03:19:28] <chromas> or linux
[03:19:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> tried linuxing it but issues
[03:19:41] <chromas> kde gives it the good touch
[03:20:03] <chromas> it was pretty rad being able to use an adult browser instead of the mobile crap
[03:20:15] <chromas> the display was cheap oled though so it had ghosting issues
[03:20:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> like for starters it has a 32bit uefi and a 64bit processor. makes even getting it to boot with a non-windows image a huge pain.
[03:21:24] <chromas> I changed this laptop I have from legacy bios to efi mode and it boots a lot quicker
[03:21:36] <chromas> I wonder what bios does to take so long. Doesn't it still have to do all the same checks and stuff?
[03:22:26] <chromas> or does bios mode have to run it in 8-bit mode at 1mhz or something?
[03:23:00] <chromas> hehe https://developer.pidgin.im
[03:23:02] <upstart> ^ 03#6049 (Switch from GTK to QT.) – Pidgin
[03:23:03] <exec> └─ 13#6049 (Switch from GTK to QT.)
[03:23:06] * TheMightyBuzzard shurgs
[03:24:48] <chromas> hm. void linux sucks. three utilities for package management? one each for install, remove and query. into the trash bin
[03:24:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> needing a 32bit uefi and a 64bit os means i gotta cannibalize images from completely different distros to get an install media made.
[03:26:06] <chromas> you sure you can't run a 32bit os?
[03:26:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> it could but i'm not gonna.
[03:27:57] <chromas> put grim dawn on it and see how well it works with a touchscreen
[03:28:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> finally gave up when i couldn't find out how to get it to see the ssd in grub.
[03:28:07] <chromas> poke the monsters to death
[03:30:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> blarg, ima set coffee up and go to bed.
[04:16:08] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Georgia's Entire Voter File Potentially Compromised After Machine Thefts - https://sylnt.us - actual-theft
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[04:37:25] <AzumaHazuki> gtk3 themes look weird on xfce's panel, that's the one issue. i guess flux and friends are going to be my mainstay for a while longer
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[05:47:16] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - 100K Free AI-Generated Headshots Put Stock Photo Companies On Notice - https://sylnt.us - welcome-to-the-uncanny-valley
[06:02:43] <chromas> You could use another panel
[06:03:08] <chromas> There's about 1200,000 stand-alone panels
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[07:15:55] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - TiVo Says Subscribers Will See Ads Prior to Watching Recorded Shows - https://sylnt.us - defeating-the-purpose
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[08:57:20] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - The Milky Way Has Giant Bubbles at Its Center - https://sylnt.us - filaments-and-bubbles
[10:25:57] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Emotet Trojan Evolves Since Being Reawakend, Here is What We Know - https://sylnt.us - didn't-take-all-of-the-antibiotics
[10:31:18] <Bytram> coffee++
[10:31:18] <Bender> karma - coffee: 4965
[10:44:01] <SemperOSS> Coffee++
[10:44:01] <Bender> karma - coffee: 4966
[10:45:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++
[10:45:33] <Bender> karma - coffee: 4967
[10:45:43] <SemperOSS> That systemd post created (as expected) quite a load of reactions
[10:45:45] <Bytram> ~gday SemperOSS
[10:45:47] * exec clumsily reverse-engineers a shitload of $beverage from SemperOSS
[10:45:49] <Bytram> ~gday TheMightyBuzzard
[10:45:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> ~gday SemperOSS
[10:45:50] * exec overratedly launches an array of kernel parameters toward TheMightyBuzzard
[10:45:51] * exec presumably fires a dumpster of green eggs and spam at SemperOSS
[10:45:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> ~gday Bytram
[10:45:54] * exec retroactively duplicates a loaded diaper of alternative news for Bytram
[10:46:00] <SemperOSS> ~gday Bytram
[10:46:02] * exec frankly inserts an easter basket of naval lint into Bytram
[10:46:11] <SemperOSS> ~gday TheMightyBuzzard
[10:46:12] * exec almost incoherently the last box of shekels HODL TheMightyBuzzard
[10:46:26] <Bytram> naval lint? that sounds all wet
[10:46:46] * Bytram returns to contemplating his navel
[10:46:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, nothin like a good systemd post to get people to opine
[10:47:21] <Bytram> takyon: s/good /
[10:47:29] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: s/good /
[10:47:34] <SemperOSS> Bytram, not contemplating your navy instead? That's what bathtubs are for, you know.
[10:47:47] <Bytram> I'd leave that to McHale
[10:47:54] <Bytram> ~sed on
[10:47:55] <exec> sed already enabled for 10#Soylent
[10:48:05] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: s/good //
[10:48:07] <exec> <Bytram> <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, nothin like a systemd post to get people to opine
[10:48:40] * SemperOSS takes that personally, so you do not think my post was good????
[10:49:07] <chromas> You know, journalctl takes regex
[10:49:23] <chromas> So you don't even need sed
[10:49:25] <chromas> or grep
[10:49:28] <chromas> whatever
[10:49:30] <SemperOSS> chromas, I'd rather not know ;-)
[10:50:10] <Bytram> only meant that it need not even be a *good* systemd story; *any* systemd story here will generally engender an 'enthusiastic' discussion
[10:50:27] <SemperOSS> I'm running PCLinuxOS on my laptop, no systemd. Yay!
[10:50:45] <SemperOSS> Bytram, I know, but couldn't let you off, could I?
[10:50:57] <Bytram> just checking
[10:51:03] <Bytram> or just plaiding?
[10:51:08] <Bytram> ;)
[10:51:22] <SemperOSS> Pleading? Plaiting? ...?
[10:51:48] <Bytram> pleating?
[10:52:16] <SemperOSS> I give up.
[10:52:23] <Bytram> quicky SQL question, if I may?
[10:52:36] <SemperOSS> Of course
[10:52:58] <SemperOSS> Or is it "off cause"?
[10:53:03] <Bytram> how do I find all records where date field's value is on a specific date *OR* the day before or after?
[10:53:34] <Bytram> say the date is 2019-09-01 for the sake of argument
[10:53:54] <SemperOSS> I presume you just want to give the one date?
[10:54:42] <Bytram> select * from table_name where date_field > '2019-08-29' AND date_field < '2019-09-03';
[10:55:08] <Bytram> works, and handles millisec, and is ... messsy
[10:55:14] <Bytram> that would be nice
[10:55:30] <Bytram> oh, wait
[10:55:43] <SemperOSS> Waiting ...
[10:55:44] <Bytram> select * from table_name where date_field > '2019-08-23' AND date_field < '2019-09-02';
[10:55:58] <Bytram> select * from table_name where date_field > '2019-08-30' AND date_field < '2019-09-02';
[10:56:12] <Bytram> see what I mean? it's error prone
[10:56:59] <SemperOSS> I can see that. Can I just double-check as I am not entirely sure of the exact syntax?
[10:57:08] <Bytram> certainly!
[10:57:21] <SemperOSS> BRB-ish ...
[10:57:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's not error prone, you're error prone.
[10:57:51] <chromas> there's a between operator
[10:58:02] <chromas> or maybe it's a postgres thing
[10:58:09] <Bytram> I can't be error *prone* -- I am sitting in my chair!
[10:58:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> okay, you're errorsitting
[10:58:26] * chromas is error supine
[10:59:24] <Bytram> chromas: s/s/l/2
[10:59:25] <exec> <Bytram> <chromas> is error lupine
[10:59:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> nicotine++
[10:59:35] <Bender> karma - nicotine: 729
[10:59:48] <Bytram> coffee++
[10:59:48] <Bender> karma - coffee: 4968
[11:00:45] <Bytram> break time; biab
[11:00:45] <chromas> select blah where date between ''2019-08-30
[11:00:48] <chromas> feck
[11:01:05] <chromas> select blah where date between '2019-08-30' and '2019-09-02'
[11:01:47] <Bytram> that's better... but still have to externally calc endpoints
[11:02:07] <SemperOSS> SELECT * FROM WHERE DATEDIFF(day, date_field, '2019-09-02') <= 1;
[11:02:34] <SemperOSS> s/02/01/
[11:02:36] <exec> <SemperOSS> SELECT * FROM WHERE DATEDIFF(day, date_field, '2019-09-01') <= 1;
[11:03:23] <Bytram> do you know if that would work for MySQL
[11:03:31] <SemperOSS> s/FROM/FROM table_name/
[11:03:32] <exec> <SemperOSS> SELECT * FROM table_name WHERE DATEDIFF(day, date_field, '2019-09-02') <= 1;
[11:03:50] <SemperOSS> It should work for MySQL.
[11:04:01] <Bytram> nod nod
[11:04:02] <Bytram> https://dev.mysql.com
[11:04:04] <upstart> ^ 03MySQL :: MySQL 5.5 Reference Manual :: 12.7 Date and Time Functions ( https://dev.mysql.com )
[11:04:04] <exec> └─ 13400 Bad Request
[11:04:45] <Bytram> oh, not quite
[11:05:08] <Bytram> datediff could return negative values
[11:05:23] <chromas> does it have abs()?
[11:05:29] <Bytram> next on my list
[11:05:35] <SemperOSS> Actually, it should be SELECT * FROM table_name WHERE ABS(DATEDIFF(day, date_field, '2019-09-02')) <= 1;
[11:05:40] <Bytram> =g mysql abs()
[11:05:41] <upstart> https://www.w3schools.com - MySQL ABS() Function
[11:05:46] <Bytram> =)
[11:05:51] <Bytram> upstart++
[11:05:51] <Bender> karma - upstart: 2
[11:06:51] <Bytram> https://dev.mysql.com
[11:06:52] <upstart> ^ 03MySQL :: MySQL 5.5 Reference Manual :: 9.5 Expressions ( https://dev.mysql.com )
[11:06:53] <exec> └─ 13400 Bad Request
[11:06:53] * SemperOSS was a bit too quick on the trigger and hangs his head in shame
[11:07:11] <chromas> 30 lashes
[11:07:13] <Bytram> gave me the right starting point, though
[11:07:22] <Bytram> SemperOSS++ goodpointer
[11:07:22] <Bender> karma - sempeross: 8
[11:07:36] <SemperOSS> You're welcome
[11:07:45] <Bytram> much obliged!
[11:07:54] <SemperOSS> chromas, Awwwwwwww!
[11:08:10] * chromas gets out the mascara
[11:08:40] <SemperOSS> I'm not wearing mascara ................................. today
[11:09:00] <Bytram> I'm more of a practical-minded coder; no longer seek the most gnarly way to do things; prefer non-error-prone and intuitively obvious as someday I may have to be debugging and understanding my own code!
[11:09:36] <SemperOSS> Well, to be honest for once, not wearing mascara tomorrow either
[11:10:07] * chromas returns the lashes for store credit
[11:11:02] <SemperOSS> Bytram, that is by far the best way. If it works and is simple and elegant and covers all the patterns proposed by high-faluting academics, then you're all set to go
[11:11:11] <Bytram> nod nod
[11:11:24] <Bytram> I take my guidance from, IIRC, Brian Kernighan
[11:11:58] <Bytram> if I write code that is at the limits of what I can do, I'll never be able to be smart enough to debug it. (highly paraphrased)
[11:12:48] <chromas> SemperOSS: s/alul/ella/
[11:12:54] <chromas> SemperOSS: s/alu/ella/
[11:12:56] <exec> <chromas> <SemperOSS> Bytram, that is by far the best way. If it works and is simple and elegant and covers all the patterns proposed by high-fellating academics, then you're all set to go
[11:13:09] <SemperOSS> Bytram, So true
[11:13:17] <Bytram> e.g. rather than one massive expression to compute a value, unless there are major performance reasons dictating otherwise, I'll create sub-expressions with variable names that describe what they are and then use all the sub-expressions in the final expression
[11:13:29] <Bytram> really *really* helpful with regexps
[11:13:32] <SemperOSS> chromas, I wouldn't know that — for sure
[11:14:53] <chromas> Sounds like you don't have enough academia nuts
[11:14:55] <SemperOSS> I am always teetering on the chasm between "smart" code and "readable" code — often "simplifying" things by using smart mathematics
[11:15:10] <SemperOSS> s/smart m/"smart" m/
[11:15:12] <exec> <SemperOSS> I am always teetering on the chasm between "smart" code and "readable" code — often "simplifying" things by using "smart" mathematics
[11:15:14] <Bytram> when in doubt, make it readable
[11:15:54] <Bytram> oh, and write the tests first, then the comments of how you plan to do it, and *then* write the code
[11:16:01] <SemperOSS> Isn't it enough being a nutcase myself?
[11:16:09] <Bytram> it's nice to share!
[11:16:39] <Bytram> thanks again for the SQL pointers
[11:16:44] <SemperOSS> I find that much coding today is hampered by not being thought through before implementation begins, resulting in obscenely unwieldy re-factoring sessions. Also, as you say, forgetting about tests and test cases until it is almost in production
[11:16:44] <Bytram> break time; for reals
[11:17:22] <SemperOSS> OK, then break for reals. Hope somebody can take you to the hospital.
[11:17:28] <Bytram> oh, almost forgot; put a representative sample of inputs and expected outputs in the comments
[11:17:50] <Bytram> pbbbt, I can drive myself! ;)
[11:17:56] <Bytram> afk
[11:18:06] <SemperOSS> Not if you have a *proper* break ;-)
[11:18:21] <chromas> how can you drive yourself when you're on brake?
[11:18:34] <SemperOSS> Pun time is fun time
[11:29:42] <FatPhil> if you've got tests, you don't need comments to show you inputs and outputs, they can be tested for, not just talked about./
[11:43:07] <Bytram> I see where you are coming from, but I have found it helpful to have both in the same place for easy reference. For more complicated scenarios, it breaks down, granted. Yet, watching the transition from input to output with examples in the comments showing the progression... I find that to be very helpful.
[11:43:21] <Bytram> obviously, personal opinion expressed as such.
[11:57:05] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - 2018 Chevy Malibu Recalled for Software Bug that May Kill Fuel Injectors - https://sylnt.us - software-written-by-humans
[12:06:33] <FatPhil> https://pbs.twimg.com
[12:12:34] <Bytram> SemperOSS: Here is an example of what I was talking about wrt intermediate variables vs a single, complex expression:
[12:12:36] <Bytram> ###############################################################################
[12:12:38] <Bytram> function epoch_from_yyyymmdd(yyyymmdd_in, yyyy, mm, dd, return_epoch) {
[12:12:40] <Bytram> ###############################################################################
[12:12:42] <Bytram> yyyy = substr(yyyymmdd_in, 1, 4);
[12:12:44] <Bytram> mm = substr(yyyymmdd_in, 5, 2);
[12:12:46] <Bytram> dd = substr(yyyymmdd_in, 7, 2);
[12:12:48] <Bytram> return_epoch = mktime( yyyy " " mm " " dd " 12 00 01 -1" ) ;
[12:12:50] <Bytram> return return_epoch;
[12:12:52] <Bytram> } # function epoch_from_yyyymmdd()
[12:14:41] <Bytram> granted, this is a quick-n-dirty function that I wrote for my own use, so I did not feel the need to elaborate further on the syntax of the expected arg to mktime, nor is there any error checking.
[12:14:47] <SemperOSS> It is very clear and an example of good practice. Personally I would probably put the substr statements directly into the return statement
[12:15:34] <Bytram> having the return value as a separate var also allows easy-er debugging because the derived value is available for display/inspection
[12:16:26] <Bytram> I *could* have coded it as a single return statement with one god-awful single expression...
[12:16:37] <SemperOSS> Absolutely. I normally just copy the statement and change the return to print and such.
[12:17:48] <SemperOSS> You sound like someone where Pascal would be a good language
[12:17:48] <Bytram> to wit:
[12:17:49] <Bytram> ###############################################################################
[12:17:49] <Bytram> function epoch_from_yyyymmdd(yyyymmdd_in) {
[12:17:49] <Bytram> ###############################################################################
[12:17:49] <Bytram> return mktime( substr(yyyymmdd_in, 1, 4) " " substr(yyyymmdd_in, 5, 2) " " substr(yyyymmdd_in, 7, 2) " 12 00 01 -1" ) ;
[12:17:50] <Bytram> } # function epoch_from_yyyymmdd()
[12:18:08] * Bytram has done some pascal programming, yes
[12:20:27] <Bytram> and PL/I, and COBOL, and FORTRAN, and a bunch of ASMs, and (shudder) BASIC, and Perl, and REXX, and gawk, and C, and CLIPS, and TCL/Tk and cmd-line-'shells' on a plethora of systems, and prolly a bunch more that don't come readily to mind. Learning another language is not really a challenge for me (at least so far!)
[12:20:32] <SemperOSS> My problem is that I started with assembler, continued with some of the time's favourite languages, but today I am mainly using C, Perl and bash, which unfortunately often is begging for "smart" code
[12:20:54] <Bytram> smart? how so?
[12:22:07] <SemperOSS> Me trying to outsmart myself by having statements like your last return. It is partly as an intellectual challenge and partly because I am lazy. It has, at times, cost be a bit of bother.
[12:22:29] <Bytram> yep, that's why I try to not do that any more
[12:22:47] <SemperOSS> If I am suddenly "disappearing", it is because I am in a telephone queue waiting to get through to an adviser. I am now number two in the queue
[12:22:51] <Bytram> any time savings from string it all together is lost when I try to understand / debug it later
[12:22:58] <Bytram> good luck!
[12:24:22] <SemperOSS> I do find that well-documented but complicated statements are not the worst and can make a considerable difference when it comes to run-time as some smart solutions cannot be optimised by the compiler
[12:24:23] * Bytram is waiting for a 22.4 GB copy to complete from a 32 GB micro sdxc card to a 128 GB micro sdxc card; ~ 1hour to go
[12:24:43] <SemperOSS> Does not sound like USB-3 speed
[12:24:47] <Bytram> yep, ~500 KB/sec
[12:25:02] <Bytram> both are hanging off the same USB hub
[12:25:08] <chromas> that doesn't sound like sdxc speed
[12:25:17] <Bytram> yeah, agreed.
[12:25:35] <SemperOSS> Now number one in the queue and my call IS important to them, they say
[12:25:42] <Bytram> oh, the source *might* be sdhc
[12:25:54] <Bytram> they say that to *everybody*
[12:26:24] <Bytram> Your call is important to us, please stay on the line and your call will be answered in the order received.
[12:26:39] <SemperOSS> I know, and I hate platitudes like that
[12:27:08] * Bytram has prolly heard that msg *literally* at least one thousand times
[12:27:27] <SemperOSS> All our advisers are busy = We only have one adviser and he is scratching his bum
[12:27:48] <SemperOSS> We have had a higher volume of callers than normal = We are understaffed as usual
[12:27:51] <Bytram> but, that cust svc org does not deem it important enough to tell us the size of the queue or our place in it
[12:27:55] <Bytram> lol
[12:28:14] <chromas> next, you'll move on up to -1 in the queue
[12:28:22] <SemperOSS> LOL
[12:28:54] <Bytram> or, finally getting through the queue, answer a couple questions, and get told that they need to transfer you to someone else, and drop the call in the handover.
[12:29:00] <SemperOSS> I have actually tried to be in a queue where they told me a number of times I was, say, number 7 in the queue and then suddenly I was number 12 in the queue
[12:29:27] <Bytram> you are NOT important enough to us
[12:30:02] <SemperOSS> Oh, I have been passed from pillar to post so many times it makes my head spin
[12:30:28] * Bytram has only 8,889 files (1.70 GB) left to copy.
[12:31:00] <Bytram> "Time remaining: About 1 Hour"
[12:31:02] <SemperOSS> You'll be finished before I'm through
[12:31:34] <Bytram> btw, that example I gave is THE reason why I broke things up the way I did.
[12:31:38] <chromas> whatif you copy over the network to another card reader?
[12:31:54] <Bytram> I used to smash it all together in one expression and it bit me too many times.
[12:32:06] <Bytram> what network?
[12:32:14] <Bytram> atm I only have my one lappy
[12:32:19] <chromas> an ethernet cable
[12:32:30] <Bytram> it claims to have gigbit ethernet
[12:32:50] <SemperOSS> A loopback cable to itself?
[12:33:00] <chromas> then you'll get two gigabit
[12:33:11] <SemperOSS> AFK
[12:33:15] <Bytram> k
[12:33:17] <Bytram> goodluck!
[12:33:26] <Bytram> break time afk
[12:39:46] <SemperOSS> Oh Sweet Heaven! She could not do anything about it herself but would send an E-mail to the right person, who will hopefully (her word!) contact me soon. La la la la la la la la la la ...
[12:40:33] <SemperOSS> Coffee++
[12:40:33] <Bender> karma - coffee: 4969
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[13:25:44] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Richard Stallman Deserved to be Fired, Says Fired GNU Hurd Maintainer - https://sylnt.us - axe-to-grind
[13:29:45] <janrinok> ~gday Bytram
[13:29:47] * exec carefully launches a sacful of health potions toward Bytram
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[14:25:09] <Bytram> ~gday janrinok
[14:25:11] * exec cautiously [deleted] a cornhole of $insert_beverage_here in janrinok
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[14:36:51] <janrinok> just finished my nursey duties
[14:37:30] * Bytram woke up too early this AM and really should have gone back to bed. :/
[14:41:02] <janrinok> you are on vacation - you shouldn't be getting up until you have to...!
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[15:06:59] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - World's Largest Heap of Untreated Nuclear Waste Needs More Bots to Cart Around Irradiated Crap - https://sylnt.us - bot++
[15:15:26] * FatPhil comes to the realisation that he's not shmart enough to do: ``if [ -n "$X" ]; then export MODE=X; elif [ -n "$Y" ]; then export MODE=Y; fi'' without ifs. I was hoping some combination of ${:+} and ${:-} would work...
[15:24:05] <FatPhil> MODE=${X:+X}${Y:+Y} works, but has the failure case of both X and Y, which fortunately is impoooosible.
[16:04:18] -!- Web_weasel [Web_weasel!~Stefan@cqig64-433-10-1.range14-483.btcentralplus.com] has joined #Soylent
[16:31:16] <boru> Why do you need to use ifs at all? Do you control the values of $X and $Y?
[16:37:43] <chopchop1> get em boru
[16:38:25] <boru> Who am I getting?
[16:39:00] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Atoms Spin Backwards While Flying Along a Surface - https://sylnt.us - all-in-a-spin
[16:39:02] <chopchop1> FatPhil and his lousy code
[16:39:25] * boru chuckles.
[16:39:43] * boru casts spell: Bikeshedding lvl 5
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[17:02:33] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v mechanicjay] by Aphrodite
[17:14:28] <FatPhil> boru: they are environmental variables passed into the script, I don't care about the actual values at that point, I just want to know which one's been set.
[17:39:25] * FatPhil resists the spell BIkeshedding lvl 5 and stays at 3rd dan.
[18:06:02] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Western Digital Sells Off IntelliFlash Division - https://sylnt.us
[19:46:21] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - 600k Travelers are Stranded after Thomas Cook Travel Agency Declares Bankruptcy - https://sylnt.us - grounded
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[21:12:35] <Bytram> FatPhil: What's wrong with the IFs? I doubt anything else will be terribly more performant, and unless it IS in the middle of a loop executed a gazillion times, I'd favor readability / understandability over "line-noise-code"
[21:17:24] <FatPhil> Strangely, I often prefer "line noise" to flow control for readability.
[21:17:29] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - New Foundation for Nanostructures: Scientists Combine Glass and Synthetic Diamond - https://sylnt.us - nanostructures-are-forever
[21:18:55] <Bytram> I assume that was bash?
[21:50:50] <FatPhil> sh - as I like to put handcuffs on myself just in case I'm ever trapped in a box with only sh!
[21:51:28] <FatPhil> I do have a few boxes without bash presently, so it's not that weird a restriction.
[21:58:24] <Bytram> nod nod
[21:59:48] <FatPhil> I always hated the attitude of not using a more lightweight and portable language to do a simple job just because one line of your script uses a bashism.
[22:00:58] <FatPhil> (say a 200 line script, making it a 201 line script to work around the lack of ${//} in sh, that kind of thing)
[22:01:05] <FatPhil> however, I would also say ...
[22:01:13] <FatPhil> NEVAR USE CSH!!!!!!
[22:01:13] <Bytram> FatPhil: can you not use compound conditionals in a test? Also, it's been a long time, and I'm more experienced in bash, but I thought there was an assignment statement analagous to: x = (foo >= 0) ? foo : -foo ;
[22:01:15] <FatPhil> csh--
[22:01:16] <Bender> karma - csh: -1
[22:01:36] <Bytram> not even by the cshore?
[22:01:54] <FatPhil> there's no ternary operator, there's only a set-or-dont-set, or set-or-set-to-null
[22:02:24] <Bytram> I was weaned on sh, but was soon introduced to bash and, for the most part, never looked back.
[22:02:31] <Bytram> k
[22:02:36] <FatPhil> if you could nest the parameter, it would be fudgeable, but you can only nest the expanded values.
[22:04:11] <FatPhil> there might be more guru-level tricks, but if they're not as compact as my ideal, I don't want them - I've always got the buttfuck simple if/elif if I don't care about verbosity.
[22:04:15] <Bytram> and the idea is that if x is not empty, then set the mode to x, otherwise, if y is not empty, then set the mode to y, else do not set mode?
[22:04:28] <chromas> The better way is to write that part in another language
[22:04:28] <FatPhil> spot on
[22:04:35] <SemperOSS> FatPhil, what about using ${X:-$Y}?
[22:04:47] <FatPhil> because I don't want the value of Y
[22:05:00] <FatPhil> I just want to know that we're in the Y context
[22:05:04] <SemperOSS> That is ${Xcolon minus$Y}
[22:05:13] <Bytram> which means?
[22:05:15] <chromas> Write a tool in Java to check the environment variables and return the mode in xml
[22:05:24] <FatPhil> xml++
[22:05:25] <Bender> karma - xml: -3
[22:05:28] <FatPhil> only joking!
[22:05:30] <FatPhil> xml--
[22:05:30] <Bender> karma - xml: -4
[22:05:31] <FatPhil> xml--
[22:05:31] <Bender> karma - xml: -5
[22:05:36] <Bytram> putine--
[22:05:36] <Bender> karma - putine: -5
[22:05:40] <Bytram> poutine--
[22:05:40] <Bender> karma - poutine: -434
[22:05:44] <FatPhil> poutine--
[22:05:44] <Bender> karma - poutine: -435
[22:05:52] <chromas> or call a bash script in your sh script for just that bit
[22:05:57] <FatPhil> hahaha!
[22:05:59] <Bytram> ~last poutine
[22:06:00] <exec> 03Ops: random, first, last, all, count, source. Parameters: message, nick, channel (regex); since, until (date-/time range); limit (maximum messages to return; default is 1, unless op=all); type [message (plain+action; default), plain, action, nick, mode, join, part, quit, kick, kill, topic, all]; out [json, php, tab, irc, message, html]; debug (show the query and whatever else)
[22:06:00] <exec> http://chromas.0x.no
[22:06:11] <Bytram> ~seen poutine
[22:06:13] <exec> Bytram, poutine was last seen in #Soylent 233 days, 18 hours15 seconds ago with message: alsa/oss and others were a mess
[22:06:30] <chromas> need to make exec imply nick= when no variable is set
[22:06:32] <FatPhil> so, was he pushing pulseaudio?
[22:06:46] <chromas> he was the resident negative nancy
[22:07:03] <FatPhil> negative 435 it appears
[22:07:30] <Bytram> chromas++ you got that right
[22:07:30] <Bender> karma - chromas: 259
[22:07:40] <Bytram> right up there with... gravis(sp?)
[22:07:44] <Bytram> ~seen gravis
[22:07:45] <exec> Bytram, gravis was last seen in #Soylent 1103 days, 11 hours, 24 minutes, 12 seconds ago with message: TheMightyBuzzard: so you just want a fight in the comments section, no matter how stupid, eh?
[22:08:23] <chromas> See, tmb knows how to get the clicks
[22:08:33] <chromas> ad_revenue++
[22:08:33] <Bender> karma - ad_revenue: 1
[22:09:14] <FatPhil> attention deficit revenue?
[22:10:08] <Bytram> so, back to that expression...
[22:10:23] <chromas> Yes. We make all our money from
[22:10:37] <FatPhil> anyone seen the first one of: http://www.youtube.com
[22:10:38] <upstart> ^ 03Comedian's Giving Lectures Trailer - New Original Comedy: UKTV ( https://www.youtube.com )
[22:10:38] <Bytram> FatPhil: can you please give some samples of the data you are trying to process and what you want the output to be?
[22:10:39] <exec> └─ 13Comedian's Giving Lectures Trailer - New Original Comedy: UKTV - YouTube
[22:12:34] <Bytram> set x = 123; set y = 456 ; want mode = ???
[22:13:04] <FatPhil> Bytram: I settled with my concatenation solution in the end. I don't think it can be beaten for simplicity. Just knowing that both of the variables being set is illegal and will crash the client of the wrapper script is good enough for me. GIGO. (or garbage in, crash out, crashing on bullshit is totally acceptible.)
[22:14:00] <Bytram> just put in a glaring comment that this WILL blow up if both values are set... help the next person who comes along... who just might be YOU! =)
[22:15:10] <FatPhil> I left a mysterious comment instead. I like puzzles!
[22:15:35] <FatPhil> this is all hobby stuff - no-one else will ever see it.
[22:16:01] <Bytram> all the more reason to make it easier to find you foot after it has been blown off!
[22:17:01] <Bytram> I've been writing code for my own use since the early 90s, some of which I still use today. Circumstances vastly different, and so is my coding ability and tolerance for wasting my own time.
[22:17:54] <SemperOSS> Fatphil, I agree that there does not seem to be a single statement that can achieve it, but with two it could be MODE=${X:+X}; MODE=${MODE:-${Y:+Y}}
[22:18:19] <SemperOSS> That's colon minus, which becomes an emoji in Pidgin
[22:18:21] <chromas> if both variables are set, quietly pick one at random to unset
[22:19:03] <chromas> pidgin-- #there's nothing better
[22:19:03] <Bender> karma - pidgin: -2
[22:19:04] <SemperOSS> colon minus dollar
[22:19:33] <chromas> pidgin changes text to emojis even if it's a nick
[22:19:45] <SemperOSS> Great
[22:21:02] <Bytram> chromas: s/$/ nack/
[22:21:03] <exec> <Bytram> <chromas> pidgin changes text to emojis even if it's a nick nack
[22:21:12] <chromas> I have someone with the nick set to D, so on each message it does D: (message), so the D: changes to the surprised face icon
[22:21:35] <FatPhil> SemperOSS: yup, I did consider that, it is quite clean.
[22:21:54] * chromas paddywhacks
[22:22:26] <FatPhil> it's just a shame you can't subsitute ${X:+X} for MODE in the second expression - that would be a lovely symmetrical bit of code.
[22:22:52] <Bytram> chromas++
[22:22:53] <Bender> karma - chromas: 260
[22:22:59] <FatPhil> pidgin--
[22:23:00] <Bender> karma - pidgin: -3
[22:23:07] <Bytram> !uid
[22:23:07] <Bender> The current maximum UID is 8574, owned by TopEndMus
[22:23:20] <FatPhil> automatic-replacement-of-text-sequences-with-graphics--
[22:23:35] <chromas> I think they gave up on it 'cause it still doesn't support the newer file transfer xep for jabber
[22:23:42] <SemperOSS> Yeah, but the shells insist that the first bit can only be a "parameter" or one of the special characters
[22:23:46] <chromas> Maybe they're only interested in protocols they have to reverse engineer
[22:24:27] <FatPhil> yeah, as I say it's a shame. eval to the rescue...!!!!
[22:24:49] <Bytram> can't grep pics
[22:25:10] <chromas> google requests to differentiate
[22:26:09] <SemperOSS> Oh yes, eval can save everything and I thought about it, but it comes at a cost, so I rarely use it unless it is the ONLY solution
[22:26:31] <SemperOSS> I used to use eval more in shells before they had arrays
[22:27:09] <chromas> be sure to stick eval into your cgi scripts to handle the parameters like those webcams
[22:27:51] <chromas> ip cams. I guess they're different things
[22:27:59] <SemperOSS> Of course, it gives me such flexibility for remote configuration
[22:33:23] <FatPhil> I'm still not 100% fluent with arrays, I really need to up my shell game, just this evening I was thinking that arrays would simplify my script's logging a fuckton.
[22:34:18] * chromas slips a pea into an array of three and exports it to FatPhil's script
[22:35:55] * Bytram started a big download that will clog his connection; leaving the channel for a couple hours.
[22:36:19] <FatPhil> as it's still under development, I'm running with -x, and I've got a painfully noisy loop. If I could build an array in a loop that I run +x, then i could act on the whole array afterwards back in -x mode.
[22:36:43] <FatPhil> when there's no room for text, there's no room for anything...
[22:56:39] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Bioengineering Organ-Specific Tissues with High Cellular Density and Embedded Vascular Channels - https://sylnt.us - lab-created-bacon
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[23:28:05] <chromas> rehash--
[23:28:05] <Bender> karma - rehash: -5
[23:28:42] <chromas> If I open a new tab with a single comment and submit a reply, it should go back to just that comment instead of loading the entire story again in the new tab
[23:29:01] * chromas loads whinecfg