#Soylent | Logs for 2016-07-06

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[00:21:54] -!- GungnirSniper has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
[00:30:06] -!- audioguy [audioguy!~audioguy@Soylent/Staff/Developer/audioguy] has joined #Soylent
[00:30:06] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v audioguy] by Thor
[00:33:17] <audioguy> Is anyone who was noticing slowness on the site still here?
[00:34:00] <dyingtolive> not as bad before, but it's not great.
[00:35:12] <audioguy> Is that still the case, and could you give me more detail - all pages? How slow is slow?
[00:40:06] <dyingtolive> takes roughly a second to load. appears to be pretty much anything I click on.
[00:40:21] <dyingtolive> like i said, not bad, but worse than what I'm used to.
[00:40:38] <dyingtolive> better than the 5+ seconds that it was earlier.
[00:41:09] <dyingtolive> main page takes about two seconds.
[00:41:10] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Math v Bugs: Hello DeepSpec - http://sylnt.us - GIGO
[00:44:48] <audioguy> tell me if it is better now
[00:47:06] <dyingtolive> in a very unscientific test, main page seems like it's about 1.5 seconds, everything else seems a bit faster.
[00:47:27] <dyingtolive> here's where you tell me you didn't do anything just to see if it's in my head. :)
[00:47:45] <audioguy> ok, well, I just removed a filter I am working on completely :-)
[00:47:54] <dyingtolive> ah. fair enough.
[00:48:22] <cmn32480> audioguy - I'm seeing about a 3 count to lad any page
[00:48:24] <dyingtolive> yeah, main page somewhere between 1 and 1.5 seconds. certainly better, though that's not very precise a measurement.
[00:48:27] <audioguy> Trying to tune some limits. Are you game for a couple more quick tests?
[00:48:40] <dyingtolive> i'll be here.
[00:48:51] <audioguy> cmn32480, still?
[00:49:04] <cmn32480> better now
[00:49:11] <audioguy> no filter on now
[00:49:19] <audioguy> how MUCH better :-0
[00:49:40] <cmn32480> 2-3 seconds to get into the submission page
[00:50:02] <cmn32480> 2.5 seconds to the front page
[00:50:26] <cmn32480> it was about 5 seconds each
[00:50:35] <audioguy> and now?
[00:50:35] <dyingtolive> submission page is faster for me. about 1 second. everything seems about that at this point. i'm logged in if that matters.
[00:50:54] <cmn32480> 4 seconds to sub page
[00:51:05] <cmn32480> 3 seconds to main page
[00:51:24] <audioguy> all filters are off and returned to original state they were in trwo days ago.
[00:51:31] <cmn32480> using the very scientific 1 scoobydoobydoo 2 scoobydoobydoo method
[00:51:38] <audioguy> Suggesting something else is wrong
[00:51:58] <cmn32480> plausible it is also my PC at this time
[00:52:05] <dyingtolive> cmn32480: i'm totally using that method from now on.
[00:52:17] <cmn32480> feel free to borrow it
[00:52:22] <cmn32480> brb gotta tuck my kids in
[00:52:22] <audioguy> For me, it is fast and has been all along
[00:53:24] <audioguy> will trying restoring the new setup and see if any change for me
[00:59:07] <audioguy> no
[00:59:14] <cmn32480> no change?
[00:59:43] <audioguy> occasional slow page loads, 1-2 secs, but bnot always. Same whether filter is on or off.
[01:00:44] <audioguy> will look through logs.
[01:05:04] <audioguy> Thanks dyingtolive, pretty sue this is something other than what I was workingon so need to track that down
[01:06:04] <dyingtolive> np
[01:14:12] <chromas> Just need to set the servers to reboot every night
[01:14:24] <chromas> after installing windows
[01:14:33] <cmn32480> we'll start w/ my PC... and see what happens
[01:14:49] <cmn32480> but not just any windows.. only win10 will do
[01:15:24] <chromas> win10-220 to save on long distance
[01:42:12] <takyon> TheMightyBuzzard why the site so slow
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[01:52:33] -!- dyingtolive has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
[01:57:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> takyon, check with audioguy
[01:57:21] <takyon> k
[02:02:59] <mythterj> Is the site being DOSed or something? Horribly slow..
[02:04:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> audioguy is working on the firewall
[02:05:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> should be better sometime between "soon" and morning
[02:05:53] <mythterj> Kinda like my next page load... Maybe I will give it a rest.
[02:06:03] * TheMightyBuzzard chuckles
[02:06:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> s'what i'm about to do. my pillow calls and acs will still be handy for abuse in the morning.
[02:12:20] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Bats Welcomed to Long Island - http://sylnt.us - skeeter-eaters
[02:29:21] <Runaway1956> ~blame
[02:29:23] * exec points at Bytram
[02:29:40] <Runaway1956> Bytram, the site loads slowly if it loads at all.
[02:30:18] <Runaway1956> I just needed to know who to blame.
[02:30:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> ~blame
[02:30:40] * exec points at Bytram
[02:30:51] <GungnirSniper> I got a submission ready for the wonderful new Ark Encounter in KY. That ark is to blame.
[02:30:52] <cmn32480> exec is alwyas right
[02:31:49] <cmn32480> 30 seconds for a page so far
[02:32:38] <Bytram> #smake Runaway1956
[02:32:38] * MrPlow smakes Runaway1956 upside the head with a flying butt pliers
[02:32:40] <Bytram> #smake TheMightyBuzzard
[02:32:41] * MrPlow smakes TheMightyBuzzard upside the head with a cluebat
[02:33:17] <cmn32480> #smake bytram
[02:33:17] * MrPlow smakes bytram upside the head with division by zero
[02:33:22] <cmn32480> #smake the
[02:33:22] * MrPlow smakes the upside the head with a red Swingline stapler
[02:33:26] <cmn32480> #smake TheMightyBuzzard
[02:33:26] * MrPlow smakes TheMightyBuzzard upside the head with vibrating rooster sammich
[02:33:36] <cmn32480> #smake exec
[02:33:36] * MrPlow smakes exec upside the head with a sock full of oranges
[02:33:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> #smake cmn32480
[02:33:36] * MrPlow smakes cmn32480 upside the head with a cane toad
[02:33:56] <Bytram> #smake MrPlow
[02:33:56] * MrPlow smakes MrPlow upside the head with a poo glyph
[02:34:10] * Bytram likes klein bottles
[02:34:31] <Bytram> well, I was concerned that the story queue was nearly empty, but if nobody can get to the site, then it's a moot point, eh?
[02:34:50] <cmn32480> yep
[02:35:36] <Bytram> of course, the system will return to normal functionality 10 minutes after we give up and go to bed, amirite?
[02:36:03] <GungnirSniper> Exec has the FDIV bug, so probably.
[02:36:17] <cmn32480> yep
[02:38:24] * cmn32480 has to be up at 0500 and cannot wait around any longer
[02:38:30] <Runaway1956> Butt pliers? BUTT PLIERS?!?!?! You don't smake people upside the HEAD with BUTT pliers! Send exec back to medical school.
[02:38:45] <cmn32480> exec doesn't smake
[02:38:50] <cmn32480> that's mrplow
[02:39:01] <cmn32480> exec gives
[02:39:04] <Runaway1956> Oh yeah - well - blame
[02:39:06] <cmn32480> ~gday Runaway1956
[02:39:08] * exec prematurely crams a buzzfeed list of tubgirl into Runaway1956
[02:39:13] <Runaway1956> LOL
[02:45:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> okay, i think we're done playing with the firewall tonight. you lot can go back to calling gewg_ a swj or Runaway1956 a neocon
[02:46:02] <cmn32480> or TMB a drag queen
[02:46:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> whatever blows your skirt up. or mine as the case may be.
[02:46:43] <GungnirSniper> That's insensitive.
[02:47:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, very sensitive. specially if it's cold wind.
[02:47:28] <cmn32480> you clod
[02:49:22] <Bytram> cmn32480: I only need to push out 2-3 more stories and we'll be good into morning
[02:49:25] <Bytram> cmn32480: go to bed
[02:49:34] <cmn32480> yes dad
[02:49:37] <cmn32480> much obliged
[02:49:41] <cmn32480> good sir
[02:49:51] <cmn32480> ~gnight y'all
[02:49:53] * exec insensitively spews an i/o stream of brussels sprouts on y'all
[03:29:48] <Bytram|away> !uid
[03:29:48] <Bender> The current maximum UID is 6279, owned by Skavoovee
[03:30:01] <Bytram|away> ~gnight #Soylent
[03:30:03] * exec inadequately ejaculates a bottle of onion dip at #Soylent
[03:30:17] <Bytram|away> that's gotta sting. :P
[03:51:54] -!- GungnirSniper has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de]
[04:13:54] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Blue Origin Takes the Prize - http://sylnt.us - Singing-the-Blues?
[05:02:35] <SirFinkus> friendly reminder to clean out your controller and keyboard smegma on a regular basis http://i.imgur.com
[05:49:42] <chromas> is that one of those eggplant emojis I've read about?
[06:15:27] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - 150,000 Users Compromised in Muslim Dating Site Hack - http://sylnt.us - like-deja-vu-all-over-again
[06:49:03] * Subsentient sprays chromas with chunky vomit
[06:49:28] <chromas> No he doesn't
[06:49:34] <chromas> Keep your hands off my vomit!
[06:49:58] <chromas> Trying to age it so the value goes up
[06:54:50] <Subsentient> chromas: hehe
[06:55:11] <Subsentient> I seriously wish I could build a Linux phone.
[06:55:35] <Subsentient> It'd be sooo cool to have a machine that runs real desktop linux that works as a real 4G phone.
[06:57:39] <Subsentient> of course, Pyra beat me to it, but they want like $350. http://pyra-handheld.com
[06:57:41] <Wesley> ^ 03( https://www.pyra-handheld.com )
[06:57:48] <FatPhil> shame about the 4G aspect, otherwise a Nokia n900 would do
[06:58:04] <Subsentient> FatPhil: Don't those sell for a lot even used?
[06:58:23] * Subsentient is a broke bastard
[06:58:24] <FatPhil> I hope so - I have about 10 :-D
[06:58:43] <FatPhil> OK, 5 are junkers that I use for spare parts to keep the one I'm using alive.
[06:59:37] * Subsentient tries to think of something to trade for an n900
[07:00:42] <Subsentient> FatPhil: Want a RasPi model A+?
[07:00:59] * Subsentient thinks of other things to throw in
[07:01:02] <FatPhil> eww, that would be a downgrade from my B+
[07:01:23] <Subsentient> alright let's see.
[07:01:25] <FatPhil> And way crappier than my cubie
[07:01:38] <Subsentient> I'm interested in an equitable trade. I got some interesting stuff. Limme think.
[07:03:34] <FatPhil> Actually, the last one I bought was pretty cheap - look at online auction sites
[07:04:37] <Subsentient> FatPhil: Well, I'm really broke. I'm genuinely worried I'll bounce from buying that $11 machine.
[07:05:14] <Subsentient> FatPhil: So I'm not wasting time, if I come up with a little box of stuff you actually want, will you trade one? That's a far easier way for me to acquire one.
[07:07:06] <FatPhil> for real use or for development? Cos I can cobble together a crappy brokenish-mecahnics system that you can develop for as a freebie.
[07:07:25] <Subsentient> FatPhil: What I really want is a phone I can use that'll run XFCE.
[07:08:16] <FatPhil> that's trickier, as I only have a couple of fully-working phones.
[07:08:40] <Subsentient> FatPhil: If you have parts, could you cobble together one that works out of the other 8?
[07:08:53] <FatPhil> most of the mobos have got the broken USB problem, for example, and that's game over.
[07:10:19] <FatPhil> unless you solder up the battery connections to a lab power-supply, of course - so they're fine from a dev perspective.
[07:10:47] <Subsentient> FatPhil: Couldn't I just solder back on a new USB connector?
[07:11:42] <Subsentient> FatPhil: I have a Gameboy Advance, Gameboy Pocket (Grayscale), busted Galaxy S3, FM transmitter, Mac mighty mouse, mini-bluetooth keyboard, Pi A+, PSP fat, and a working 3.5Inch Composite video TFT display with stripped wires. I'll literally give you all that for a working N900.
[07:11:44] <FatPhil> tracks ripped up, as the connector was SM rather than thru
[07:12:49] <FatPhil> I have too much "stuff" lying around already, I don't need any more!
[07:12:55] <Subsentient> alright. :^)
[07:13:00] <Subsentient> I thought I'd try.
[07:13:15] <Subsentient> If it's not interesting to you, I don't have much else I can part with.
[07:14:40] <Subsentient> I feel like a fucking 5th grader trading in the lunch room, lol.
[07:16:41] <Subsentient> FatPhil: I also have a sack of smoked cat nipple jerky. Just sayin'.
[07:17:32] <FatPhil> I just received a new junker, and haven't properly analysed what works and what doesn't, so will go back into my store and have a root around to see what's really there still.
[07:18:20] <FatPhil> I'm just about to replace several bits on my and my g/f's ones, so diving into the stash is an imminent thing anyway.
[07:18:46] <FatPhil> touchscreens might be the limiting factor as well as mobos.
[07:18:50] <Subsentient> FatPhil: I insist I try to find something to give you in return, if you do manage to get one going.
[07:19:33] <FatPhil> do development on the n900, that's all I would ask in return!
[07:20:11] <FatPhil> I'll ask around some ex-nokia mates, see if I can squeeze a few more out of them...
[07:20:38] <Subsentient> FatPhil: Oh, I'd definitely do interesting things with that phone, there you have a promise. :^)
[07:21:18] * Subsentient starts taking apart the Galaxy S3 to see what's wrong with it besides the busted screen
[07:22:14] <Subsentient> Some idiot threw it at the wall
[07:22:26] <Subsentient> busted the screen and something's preventing it from powering on even without the screen
[07:22:41] <Subsentient> probably mobo damage
[07:22:56] <Subsentient> but I'm curious
[07:31:28] <FatPhil> I used to throw my nokia 5110 against the wall, and then dare other people to do the same with their phones. Did that at least 20 times. Not even a scratch or a dent.
[07:33:10] <Subsentient> FatPhil: nice lol
[07:34:04] <Subsentient> FatPhil: yup, this S3 is very, very dead. But why, I don't know. The board's now bowed, no pieces seem to have broken off, no evidence of heat damage, so I'm stumped.
[07:34:42] <Subsentient> FatPhil: I plan to compile an armv7 distro of SubLinux 3 once I complete my Packrat package manager.
[07:35:07] <Subsentient> If you get me a N900, I promise I'll install that on it.
[07:35:08] <Subsentient> :^D
[07:39:00] * Subsentient rolls a big fat tumor twig
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[07:46:37] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Milestone for Monster NASA Balloon - http://sylnt.us - will-this-'monster-balloon'-soon-appear-in-a-parade?
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[09:17:47] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Cars Older Than 2005 May Have to Pay Extra London 'Air Pollution Charge' - http://sylnt.us - also-implemented:-alternate-day-breathing
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[10:48:56] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - America's Suicide Epidemic is a National Security Crisis - http://sylnt.us - suicide:-a-permanent-response-to-a-temporary-situation
[11:48:13] <Bytram> coffee++
[11:48:13] <Bender> karma - coffee: 2716
[11:48:15] <Bytram> !uid
[11:48:15] <Bender> The current maximum UID is 6279, owned by Skavoovee
[11:48:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh ya, forgot to say coffee++
[11:48:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++
[11:48:23] <Bender> karma - coffee: 2717
[11:48:41] <boru> stroopwafels++
[11:48:41] <Bender> karma - stroopwafels: 1
[11:48:44] <Bytram> ~weather boston
[11:48:46] <exec> 10Boston, MA, USA - currently 79°F, mostly sunny, wind W at 11 mph, humidity 51% - Wednesday mostly sunny (69°F:92°F), Thursday partly cloudy (67°F:81°F), Friday scattered thunderstorms (62°F:74°F), Saturday thunderstorm (64°F:77°F)
[11:48:48] <Bytram> ~weather portland, me
[11:48:50] <exec> 10Portland, ME, USA - currently 71°F, partly cloudy, wind W at 6 mph, humidity 71% - Wednesday mostly sunny (59°F:84°F), Thursday isolated thunderstorms (60°F:72°F), Friday cloudy (59°F:72°F), Saturday thunderstorm (59°F:70°F)
[11:48:52] <Bytram> ~weather presque isle
[11:48:54] <exec> 10Presque Isle, ME, USA - currently 59°F, cloudy, wind NE at 3 mph, humidity 81% - Wednesday cloudy (52°F:74°F), Thursday rain (50°F:58°F), Friday cloudy (49°F:67°F), Saturday mostly cloudy (54°F:70°F)
[11:49:09] <Bytram> that's quite a temp gradient there.
[11:49:27] <boru> Quite a RH gradient, also.
[11:50:16] <cmn32480> ~gday TheMightyBuzzard
[11:50:18] * exec irresponsibly flicks an F cup of windows 3.11 for workpoops at TheMightyBuzzard
[11:50:19] <cmn32480> coffee++
[11:50:19] <Bender> karma - coffee: 2718
[11:50:35] <Bytram> windows 3.11 for workpoops? Love it!
[11:50:42] <Bytram> ~gday cmn32480
[11:50:44] * exec presumably launches a btrfs volume of linux toward cmn32480
[11:50:55] <Bytram> that's pretty benign
[11:51:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> ~gday cmn32480
[11:51:04] * exec readily nudges a hooker full of 🖕 toward cmn32480
[11:51:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> boru, whatsa stroopwafel?
[11:51:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> #g stroopwafel
[11:51:45] <MrPlow> https://en.wikipedia.org - "A stroopwafel is a waffle made from two thin layers of baked dough with a caramel-like syrup filling in the middle. It is popular in the Netherlands, where they ..."
[11:52:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> hrm, sounds unsucky
[11:52:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> man crap. ima hafta go weedeat in another two hours.
[11:52:39] <boru> I've come into possession of 10Kg of them today.
[11:52:51] <boru> They go well with a mug of tea/coffee.
[11:53:23] <boru> What're you weedeating? Nettles are my favourite thing to weedeat.
[11:53:26] <Bytram> mmm, sounds YUMMY!
[11:53:48] <Bytram> coffee++ biab
[11:53:48] <Bender> karma - coffee: 2719
[11:56:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> grass mostly. have a huge bloody yard what takes about an hour and a half to finish
[11:57:11] <boru> Sounds like you need a ride on.
[11:58:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh that's just the weedeating. the mowing takes another 2-2.5 hours.
[11:58:45] <boru> That's a big yard.
[11:59:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> it really is. i thoroughly enjoy it right up until it's time to mow again.
[11:59:56] <boru> I find mowing to be therapeutic. After sitting in a lab all day, manual labour is just the ticket.
[12:00:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> but yeah, we do need a riding mower. might cut it down to 2.5h total
[12:00:34] <boru> Ah, you're push mowing? Sheesh, that's a bit of a chore alright.
[12:01:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm that way with fishing. sitting in the sun and swapping lies just washes all yer troubles right away.
[12:01:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> anyway, nicotine time
[12:01:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> smoke break
[12:01:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> nicotine++
[12:01:57] <Bender> karma - nicotine: 85
[12:28:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> #weather
[12:28:31] <MrPlow> Today: Partial cloudiness early, with scattered showers and thunderstorms during the afternoon. High 89F. Winds SW at 10 to 15 mph. Chance of rain 50%. Tomorrow: Isolated thunderstorms in the morning, then partly cloudy late. High 96F. Winds SW at 10 to 20 mph. Chance of rain 30%.
[12:28:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> #smake Subsentient
[12:28:39] * MrPlow smakes Subsentient upside the head with a whole lot of whitespace
[12:31:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> #help
[12:31:01] <MrPlow> Commands: help, weatheradd, weather, submit, seen, smake, smakeadd, youtube, abuser, bot, admin, socialist, roll, bnk, join, part, tell, klingon, g
[12:32:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh ya...
[12:32:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> #socialist crutchy_
[12:32:36] <MrPlow> crutchy_, you're a socialist!
[12:36:52] <boru> Does smakeadd take a collective noun as a parameter?
[12:47:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> boru, takes <article noun> or <plural noun> as a parameter
[12:47:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> a large trout, tons of whitespace, etc...
[12:47:37] <Bytram> #smake "John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt"
[12:47:37] * MrPlow smakes "John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt" upside the head with a lawsuit
[12:47:42] <boru> Hmm.
[12:50:30] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Ambiguous Cylinder Illusion (and how to Make it Yourself) - http://sylnt.us - things-are-not-always-as-they-appear
[12:52:08] <cmn32480> can somebody please kill my wife
[12:52:19] <cmn32480> she is driving me up a mf'n wall
[12:52:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> take my wife, please?
[12:53:08] <boru> Have you considered Naptime? https://www.youtube.com
[12:53:08] <Wesley> ^✓ 03Naptime! // HandleBarMustacheLand - YouTube
[12:53:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> i ALWAYS consider naptime
[12:53:30] <boru> Does smakeadd prefix 'a' to the collective pronoun?
[12:53:40] <boru> Let's see.
[12:53:59] <boru> #smakeadd bungalow of stroopwafels
[12:53:59] <MrPlow> "bungalow of stroopwafels" added.
[12:54:11] <boru> Very well.
[12:55:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, you gotta specify your own article
[12:56:09] <boru> Oh, I see.
[12:56:29] <boru> I feel foolish enough not to try again.
[12:56:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> one hour till sweat time
[12:56:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> meh, it's easy to fix
[12:58:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> update smakes set smake = 'a bungalow of stroopwafels' where id = 168;
[12:58:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> all fixed
[13:04:46] <boru> Very efficient.
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[13:45:03] <Bytram> break time.. afk
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[13:52:07] <weeds> good morning, evening, afternoon, and night
[13:52:29] <Bytram> ~gday weeds
[13:52:31] * exec single-candidly stuffs an array of tongue awareness month into weeds
[13:52:46] <Bytram> sense. no. makes.
[13:52:49] <weeds> hmmm tasty?
[13:52:53] -!- Web_weasel [Web_weasel!~Stefan@dncz90-811-72-97.range83-059.btcentralplus.com] has joined #Soylent
[13:52:57] <Bytram> could be, I suppose.
[13:53:01] <boru> Sounds erotic.
[13:53:20] <Bytram> definitely exotic
[13:53:24] <weeds> I am arguing with a vendor and a need some perspective. Got a minute?
[13:53:33] <Bytram> sure
[13:53:42] <Bytram> tick tick tick... ;)
[13:53:56] <boru> Your clock is broken.
[13:53:57] <weeds> Vendor used to supply an api call that could get a user's name
[13:54:17] <Bytram> boru: tick. tock. tick. !!
[13:54:31] * boru is relieved.
[13:54:42] <weeds> decided it was a security risk - labelled it faulty and took it away. breaks lots of code we write.
[13:54:52] <Bytram> nod nod
[13:55:07] <weeds> *wrote
[13:55:24] <boru> Seems reasonable, so far.
[13:55:54] <weeds> In his eplanation, he tells me many of his European users consider it a security gap if code can get a username.
[13:56:07] <weeds> code has to be written inside the application and run on the server
[13:56:34] <Bytram> yep, EU has *very* strong privacy protections
[13:56:36] <weeds> says the username is part of the security at the same level as the password
[13:56:53] <boru> Yes, information leakage is bad.
[13:56:55] <Bytram> is a safe way forthem to look at it
[13:57:04] <boru> Assume your servers are compromised, design your API appropriately.
[13:57:06] <weeds> i\I asked him, do you blank out the username when the type it in at the login screen?
[13:57:15] <weeds> they
[13:57:27] <weeds> He says , "no"
[13:58:06] <weeds> seems like a contradiction to me
[13:58:32] <Bytram> unless you are looking over the user's shoulder, you azren't going to see the username, right?
[13:58:35] <weeds> I have a call in 2 mins (different subject) I'll be back shortly
[13:58:50] <Bytram> it's amazing what can be done with meta data analysis
[13:58:53] <weeds> But you can - that's why passwords are blanked out
[13:58:56] <Bytram> https://kieranhealy.org
[13:58:57] <Wesley> ^ 03Using Metadata to find Paul Revere
[13:59:04] <Bytram> ^^^ READ THIS
[13:59:25] <weeds> Ok, be back in a few
[13:59:37] <Bytram> jus tknowing who talks to whom, or even associates with whom, i.e. make use of htat resource, can reveal a LOT of information
[14:00:24] <Bytram> might consider replacing the username with a unique id... ID10001, ID10002, etc.
[14:01:13] <Bytram> I'm assuming the username is NOT personally identifiable? like 'weeds', for example.
[14:02:02] <Bytram> if people customarily, or even very occasionally use something like FirstnameLastname -- that would definitely be an issue, too.
[14:03:20] <Bytram> not knowing what your code does, it's kind of hard to 'debug' from here, but just try for getting unique ID for each user, and that just might get what you NEED, even though possibly quite different from what you are accustomed to.
[14:04:07] <Bytram> for example, on our site, soylentnews.org, we have both a UID (unique user ID number) and a nickname which is associated with the UID.
[14:05:12] <Bytram> we could, if necessary, replace all nicks in the story comments with just the UID -- it would be less user-friendly -- but it would still allow the following of a conversation.
[14:07:08] <Bytram> hmmm, whereto? http://feedproxy.google.com
[14:07:09] <Wesley> ^ 03OS X Backdoor Provides Unfettered Access to Mac Systems | SecurityWeek.Com ( http://www.securityweek.com )
[14:07:49] <chromas> backdoor, eh
[14:08:00] <Bytram> nah, clickbait
[14:08:02] <chromas> OS X, more like arse sex
[14:08:26] <Bytram> user downloads a program and installs it, surprise! it does not do what you expect and instead installs backdoors.
[14:08:50] <Bytram> ostensibly, the program 'EasyDoc Converter' would convert docs
[14:09:05] * chromas notes that regions where "arse" is used have accents that don't much distringuish between "arse" and "ass"
[14:09:21] <chromas> so it's more of a front door
[14:09:52] <Bytram> instead, it runs a script, installs a whole bunch of remote-control malware, and makes for a very not good day for the user.
[14:10:05] <Bytram> PEBKAC
[14:10:45] <Bytram> is worth reading the article, nevertheless.
[14:11:47] <chromas> should make a trojan that plays a clip from the condom ads
[14:11:53] <chromas> "Trojan man!"
[14:12:03] <chromas> https://www.youtube.com
[14:12:04] <Wesley> ^ 03I Am Needed Upstairs | Robot Chicken | Adult Swim - YouTube
[14:13:23] <chromas> (probably nsfw)
[14:18:00] <chromas> http://threatpost.com
[14:18:01] <Wesley> ^ 03Encryption Bypass Vulnerability Impact Half Android Devices | Threatpost | The first stop for security news ( https://threatpost.com )
[14:21:40] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Ark Encounter, $100 Million Interpretation of Noah's Ark opens in Kentucky - http://sylnt.us - Be-careful-Indy!
[14:29:45] <Runaway1956> "interpretation" I've always resented "interpretation" centers, of any sort. Just give me the facts, don't tell me what the facts mean. That's what books are for - I read your "interpretation", and compare it to twenty other authors.
[14:31:02] <chromas> Ken "were you there?" Ham
[14:31:23] <chromas> so crazy even Australia didn't want him
[14:33:21] <chromas> He and Ray "banana man" Comfort should get together and sing that duet from the Parent Trap
[14:35:24] <Bytram> wish I could hang around, but I gtg
[14:35:30] <Bytram> have a great day everyone!
[14:37:39] <Runaway1956> Remember the Tsaernov Brothers?
[14:37:49] <Runaway1956> ~submit https://www.rt.com
[14:38:22] <exec> submission successful - https://soylentnews.org
[14:38:42] <Runaway1956> History repeats itself sometimes. Oftentimes, actually.
[15:38:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> whew, i feel and smell like the north end of a southbound buffalo
[15:45:45] <FatPhil> I know western media shouldn't be trusted further than you can shit them if you've got a bad case of the farts, but RT's not much better.
[15:46:26] <FatPhil> However, because they're not western media, I like them, or at least their existence, as they deliberately cover things that we west doesn't want to.
[15:48:35] <FatPhil> I've not checked to see how RT is reporting the arrival of new US troops here in the Baltic States.
[15:50:57] <FatPhil> ugh, weasel wording in that turkey story: "may be a consequence of such disregard". Yeah, and it may be a sign of the second coming. It may be Andy Kaufman playing the biggest prank he's ever done. But it might not.
[15:52:49] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Some Tor Privacy Settings Coming to Firefox - http://sylnt.us - every-little-bit-helps
[15:53:30] <FatPhil> Russia's asking for people all the time, their motives are rarely clear, and when they are they are unsupportable, so it's no surprise he was not extradited.
[15:54:33] <FatPhil> Which doesn't mean the EU's not at fault for not working out who the fuck the guy was and why he was so interesting to the Russians.
[15:59:19] <FatPhil> chromas: your arse/ass note seems to be more wrong than correct.
[15:59:50] <FatPhil> I'm trying to think of any region where it's correct, in fact.
[16:00:11] <chromas> are there places where "arse" is used and Rs are pronounced as Rs at the same time?
[16:00:49] <FatPhil> my /ass/ is as in /lass/ (young girl)
[16:01:01] <FatPhil> as is most of the UK.
[16:01:13] <FatPhil> the /cat/ vowel
[16:01:52] <FatPhil> There's a wide range of 'r's to chose from with various levels of rhoticity.
[16:03:21] <FatPhil> Look for a Bob Flemming sketch from /The Fast Show/ for a pronounced 'r' that's not very r-like
[16:04:23] <chromas> Nah, I'm pretty sure you all sound alike :)
[16:04:26] <FatPhil> Then again, I'm not sure I'm even parsing your sentence correctly - when I see "ass" I see "donkey". I do not see "misspelt arse".
[16:05:20] <FatPhil> Holy jeebus, there's a wider range of accents in the UK than there is if you look at the Americas and Oceania together.
[16:07:51] <FatPhil> I know that Irish English and RP are not mutually intelligible. I remember trying to ask for directions off a guy in Dublin, and he couldn't understandmy question, and I couldn't understand his answer. I have a 1960s BBC World Service accent, and he couldn't understand me one little bit.
[16:09:52] <FatPhil> Try to find a clip of Rab C. Nesbitt (lower class Glaswegian) on youtube. That TV program was exported round the world a bit, but had to be accompanied by English subtitles, otherwise nobody would understand one word.
[16:10:35] <FatPhil> I think it was even shown in England with subtitles, we weren't patronising our ex-colonial friends.
[16:11:30] <chromas> https://www.youtube.com
[16:11:31] <Wesley> ^ 03Rab C Nesbitt Holiday S1 E3 Series 1 Episode 3 - YouTube
[16:13:42] <FatPhil> Great British comedy (particularly with the self-effacing characters), and won plenty of awards deservedly, which is why everyone wanted to import it - but presumably before they'd listened to it!
[16:15:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> i dig how brits ain't askeert to put ugly people on the tube
[16:15:24] <chromas> it's not too bad when they're not using made-up words like "duvet"
[16:15:40] <chromas> I can understand 100% of 18% of it
[16:16:50] * TheMightyBuzzard shurgs
[16:17:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> sounds fine to me but then accents from the isles never did give me pause cept for welsh
[16:18:39] <FatPhil> As a Brit, I cringe at how only "beautiful people" (with ugly ugly souls more often than not) get onto US TV. Brits have always been happy making TV programs about people warts'n'all.
[16:19:19] <FatPhil> OK, now I have to find out what 'duvet' is in Glaswegian...
[16:19:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> yup. i get really tired of watching interchangeable ken and barbies as well.
[16:19:57] <FatPhil> Buz - that's odd, Welsh is one of the softest (and most pleasant in surveys) of the regional accents in the UK
[16:20:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah but 90% of it is formed down in the adams apple.
[16:20:47] <FatPhil> Back when call centres were on-shore, the Welsh accent was quite in demand. It was deemed relaxing, and trustworthy.
[16:21:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> huh
[16:21:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> weird
[16:21:17] <FatPhil> Oh - speaking Welsh, that's different.
[16:21:30] <FatPhil> I was thinking Welsh-speakers speaking English.
[16:21:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> same
[16:22:04] <FatPhil> Of course, there's a north-south divide in Wales too. I think southern ones are harsher, I only know north Wales.
[16:22:33] <FatPhil> Used to holiday in Wales every year as a kid. Mum's half Welsh.
[16:22:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> ahh, that'd explain it.
[16:22:54] <FatPhil> Which of course means I have a footie match to prepare for in a couple of hours
[16:22:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> heh
[16:23:27] <FatPhil> (AKA - drink beer and go to pub)
[16:24:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> you lot probably get much more exposure to welsh accents. we don't get them as much over here as we do ones from round london, scottish, or irish.
[16:25:13] <FatPhil> Wales is pretty rare. I remember encountering one welshman outside wales. And that was my boss in Finland a decade or more back.
[16:26:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> my own.. well it's a bit eclectic. mostly oklahoma drawl, little bit of south carolina, but it wouldn't raise any eyebrows for me to tell someone "bugger off, you fuckin punkass bitch"
[16:27:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> i just steal anything i like.
[16:28:59] <FatPhil> my g/f has a US accent so mild almost nobody outside of the US detects it. Even some yanks can't place it sometimes.
[16:29:49] <FatPhil> I'm trying to fix her. Alas she seems terminally MIMIM.
[16:30:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> Keep it. Being the same as everybody else is highly overrated.
[16:30:49] <FatPhil> (== 'mary' is 'marry' is 'merry')
[16:31:36] <FatPhil> She can't even hear the difference between my 'mary' and 'merry', so I don't think I'll ever completely cure her.
[16:31:51] * TheMightyBuzzard chuckles
[16:32:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> just be glad she doesn't say mury
[16:32:47] <FatPhil> Don't get me wrong, I love regional accents. However, I like them to be comprehensible in the main.
[16:33:31] <FatPhil> :) I heard that in my head as I read it - I have an image of a mullet in my head now.
[16:33:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> cajun would not be your friend then
[16:35:03] <FatPhil> I remember listening to Cajun radio when we were in a taxi once. It was basically a french mangled such that I couldn't understand any of it!
[16:35:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> really, it's not even geography. i can mostly understand my puertorican neighbor but his wife who's lived here all her life is all but unintelligible speaking blackinese
[16:36:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's funny though, ghetto slang and pronunciation with a tennessee hick accent
[16:36:58] <FatPhil> Finnish wiggas ditto..
[16:37:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> ye gads... they make those?
[16:37:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> they're like the whitest people on the planet
[16:38:10] <FatPhil> Yeah, western "culture" invated .fi about 20 years ago. It's about 10 years behind US/UK musically and associated cultural trends.
[16:38:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> ye flipping gods...
[16:40:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> right. i must now to remove my hippie camouflage. otherwise known as taking a shower.
[16:42:51] <FatPhil> Your mention of 'hippie' has made me a bit self-aware (or maybe that's the coffee kicking in), and my mention of cultural trends and anachronisms makes me realise that I'm wearing a Beavis and Butthead t-shirt.
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[16:48:30] <FatPhil> With a /Do America/ piccy on it. Yay, 1996, I remember that.
[16:48:47] <chromas> Boioioioioing
[16:48:54] <FatPhil> said zebedee
[16:54:25] * TheMightyBuzzard is the great cornholio
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[16:54:42] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v mechanicjay] by Thor
[16:57:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> #submit http://www.digitaltrends.com
[16:57:12] -!- MrPlow has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[16:57:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> doh
[16:57:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> and he was doing so well too
[16:58:01] -!- MrPlow [MrPlow!MrPlow@nsa.gov] has joined #Soylent
[16:58:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> #submit http://www.digitaltrends.com
[16:58:22] -!- MrPlow has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[16:58:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> hrm...
[17:00:04] * FatPhil gives Buz a ~
[17:00:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, no wonder
[17:00:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> it returns a binary file if you don't give it the right useragent
[17:01:12] -!- MrPlow [MrPlow!MrPlow@nsa.gov] has joined #Soylent
[17:01:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> ~submit http://www.digitaltrends.com
[17:01:29] <exec> error: title not found or empty
[17:01:31] <FatPhil> If they hold the festival in a bigger venue, then they'll probably hit IT scaling issues, and have to call the whole thing off again.
[17:02:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> ooooooh, it returned gzipped data without telling the browser it was gzipped
[17:02:14] <FatPhil> I wanted my virtual whore to go down, not the network!!!!
[17:02:28] <FatPhil> the internet's hard, m'kay
[17:02:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> stoopid poorly configured webserver
[17:04:20] <FatPhil> what freaking package is HEAD in?!??!
[17:04:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> https://torrentfreak.com
[17:04:36] <Wesley> ^ 03UK Bill Introduces 10 Year Prison Sentence for Online Pirates - TorrentFreak
[17:04:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> shut up, Wesley
[17:05:11] <Wesley> :D
[17:06:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> coreutils
[17:06:16] <FatPhil> Such bots should perform a levenshtein distance calculation, and only report the title if it's nothing to do with the URL
[17:06:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> mine would but i can't spell it
[17:08:27] <FatPhil> coreutils has head, apparently I need libwww-perl
[17:09:00] <FatPhil> and 12 dependencies - sigh
[17:10:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> #submit https://www.techdirt.com
[17:10:05] <MrPlow> Submitting. There is a mandatory delay, please be patient.
[17:10:30] <MrPlow> Submission successful. https://soylentnews.org
[17:10:55] <FatPhil> Yikes, a scary scottish accent has just walked past the window... didn't understand one word.
[17:13:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> it was probably either something about drinking or something about fighting
[17:17:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> food time
[17:23:59] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Brute-Forcing Android's Full Disk Encrypton on Qualcomm Devices - http://sylnt.us - that's-what-it's-for
[17:44:33] <FatPhil> This is also quite a nice hack - lots of laptops affected - "secure boot", snigger
[17:44:36] <FatPhil> https://github.com
[17:44:37] <Wesley> ^ 03GitHub - Cr4sh/ThinkPwn: Lenovo ThinkPad System Management Mode arbitrary code execution 0day exploit
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[18:01:23] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v mechanicjay] by Thor
[18:05:25] <mechanicjay> I'm at demo for Splunk -- I'm just not seeing the win
[18:06:44] <FatPhil> in the words of my old HR manager "yeah, but what does it *DO*??!?!"
[18:08:00] <mechanicjay> Let's wrap a shiney gui around a central log host!
[18:08:11] <mechanicjay> ...okl
[18:08:20] <mechanicjay> s/okl/ok/g
[18:08:20] <sedctl> <mechanicjay> ...ok
[18:09:15] <AndyTheAbsurd> "Let's pay a bunch of money for someone else to manage stuff we could do ourselves with LogStash, ElasticSearch, and Kibana!"
[18:09:36] <mechanicjay> Nothing I'm being shown is ground breaking, and I can this crap with any number of tools.
[18:09:47] <mechanicjay> AndyTheAbsurd++
[18:09:47] <Bender> karma - andytheabsurd: 17
[18:13:01] <AndyTheAbsurd> there's only a handful of software-based things that I think are done better by relying on an external entity than by running open-source software on your own hardware. (Web searches being the only concrete example I can come up with right now.)
[18:15:55] <mechanicjay> Really, they lost me at "Splunk query language"
[18:21:28] <mechanicjay> fuck, I can only understand like every 3rd word this guy is saying.
[18:30:49] <FatPhil> they've leveraging the English language?
[18:32:39] <mechanicjay> trying. English is not his native tounge...it's not just the accent, it seems there might be a speech impediement as well.
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[19:14:59] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v mechanicjay] by Thor
[19:25:32] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Why Did The Stars Wars And Star Trek Worlds Turn Out So Differently? - http://sylnt.us - imaginary-worlds
[20:36:41] <SirFinkus> fuck microsoft
[20:42:02] <cmn32480> sure? why not?
[20:44:46] <SirFinkus> their wireless controllers use their own proprietary shit instead of bluetooth, so you have to buy and adapter to make them work with your computer
[20:45:09] <SirFinkus> which really defeats the purpose
[20:47:09] -!- GungnirSniper [GungnirSniper!~GungnirSn@arbs-718-80-998-378.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #Soylent
[20:48:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> GungnirSniper, you're a bastard.
[20:48:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> fios.verizon.net == faster connection than me
[20:49:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> SirFinkus, ps3/4 use bluetooth but it's nonstandard bluetooth so you gotta use ugly hacks to get them connected to your computer
[20:50:02] <SirFinkus> naw, it's just a driver thing
[20:50:05] <SirFinkus> I've done it
[20:50:48] <cmn32480> GungnirSniper, wecome to the club. I too have a faster connection then TMB
[20:51:12] <cmn32480> ~gday TheMightyBuzzard
[20:51:13] * exec suspiciously throws a byte of IOUs at TheMightyBuzzard
[20:51:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's an ugly hacked driver though
[20:51:35] * TheMightyBuzzard makes a rude gesture
[20:51:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> ~gday cmn32480
[20:51:41] * exec deliciously culturally appropriates a wine flute of cash from cmn32480
[20:51:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> woot!
[20:51:53] <SirFinkus> don't have to buy a dongle though
[20:52:01] <cmn32480> I came with a dongle
[20:52:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya but i like saying dongle
[20:52:10] <cmn32480> though it won't fint in a USB port
[20:52:12] <SirFinkus> works out of the box on osx too
[20:52:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> specially around feminists
[20:52:27] <GungnirSniper> I'm like an untrained mage with a lot of power thanks to my unholy connection.
[20:52:35] <GungnirSniper> Got your 3Com dongle right here.
[20:53:04] <SirFinkus> oh btw, it's not a technical thing either
[20:53:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> speaking of mages, i may work on the DnD game for MrPlow while i'm off on vacation next week
[20:53:32] <SirFinkus> because if you pay $20 more, you can get official xbox controllers with bluetooth built in
[20:53:50] <SirFinkus> so it's not like their proprietary shit is any better than bluetooth
[20:53:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> man mine are already official xbox controllers
[20:53:55] <cmn32480> what'r you on vacatoin from TMB? vidya?
[20:53:55] <SirFinkus> they're just being dicks about it
[20:54:25] <SirFinkus> bench pressing carrion
[20:54:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> cmn32480, visiting folks back in OK
[20:55:06] <cmn32480> ahhh
[20:55:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> get two vacations this month even
[20:55:10] <cmn32480> so vacation from TN
[20:55:24] <cmn32480> wow...
[20:55:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> from humidity and twice weekly mowing
[20:55:45] <cmn32480> at least we'll be seeing TheMightyLaptop.... he's not nearly as big a dick
[20:56:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, it's difficult to work up proper assholitude when your keyboard is too small.
[20:56:42] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - The Limits of Invisibility - http://sylnt.us - can't-see-me
[20:57:29] <cmn32480> my wife is going on a business trip wiht me
[20:57:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> wait, i thought business trips were designed so you could escape spouses
[20:58:01] <cmn32480> any chance one of you can reach through the screen and kill me?
[20:58:17] <cmn32480> so did I
[20:58:21] <GungnirSniper> How can you create Customer Success if you are bogged down with that?
[20:58:25] <SirFinkus> why you and not the wife?
[20:59:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> sorry, i been asking and asking for keyboard makers to slap switched mains voltage into the keys of every keyboard but they just won't do it
[20:59:16] <cmn32480> Sirfinkus++
[20:59:16] <Bender> karma - sirfinkus: 41
[20:59:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> i mean it's not like i'd electrocute _everyone_
[20:59:40] * cmn32480 wants to be the guy who makes the boxing glove coming out of the phone practical
[21:00:08] <SirFinkus> I want motorized laptop lids that slam shut when someone types something stupid
[21:00:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> and lock
[21:00:41] * cmn32480 quickyl removes his fingers from his laptop keyboard
[21:00:53] <SirFinkus> naw, if you don't lock it, you might break their fingers again
[21:01:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> and more importantly, iphones that kick the vibration motor into Earthquake Mode if you get smarmy
[21:01:42] <cmn32480> I know girls who'd use that 'till it burned out
[21:02:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> cmn32480, s/s.*/s/
[21:02:10] <sedctl> <TheMightyBuzzard> <cmn32480> I know girls
[21:02:38] <cmn32480> I even married one
[21:02:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> did that with only one letter
[21:03:01] * TheMightyBuzzard shakes his head
[21:04:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> so, apparently we haven't been using keepalives between our load balancer and our web frontends. we've been spawning a new apache process for every goddamned GET/POST
[21:04:43] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Oooooouuuuuuccccchhhhh
[21:04:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> well aside from the initial ones
[21:04:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah. we're fucking dumb.
[21:04:59] <Subsentient> that's alright, so am I.
[21:05:16] <SirFinkus> it occurs to me that the motorized laptop lid might be a good debugging tool
[21:05:27] <SirFinkus> use it with git blame
[21:05:48] <cmn32480> so is that why this site runs slower then diarrhea in winter sometimes?
[21:05:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> you should come on staff then. oh wait, you are already are. you should do stuff on staff then. =P
[21:06:12] <SirFinkus> give me something to do
[21:06:15] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Give me server access, and I can do some interesting things. :^)
[21:06:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> you could be breaking the servers during primetime with me and audioguy but nooooo
[21:06:38] <SirFinkus> I could learn php and experiment with the site
[21:06:42] <SirFinkus> what could possibly go wrong?
[21:06:44] <Subsentient> ewwww
[21:06:45] <Subsentient> php
[21:06:51] * cmn32480 wait s for the site to go up in flames
[21:06:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> you should already have staff server access. if not email paulej72 a ssh pub key and tell him to stick it
[21:07:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> in kerberos for you
[21:07:20] <SirFinkus> oh wait, I did do something once
[21:07:21] <Subsentient> A convoluted password isn't sufficient?
[21:07:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> newp. there's too many chinese people
[21:07:38] <SirFinkus> when the site went down, I ping ncommander and he was able to fix it
[21:07:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> there ya go
[21:08:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> was actually me what fixed it but don't tell NC that ;-)
[21:08:24] <SirFinkus> oh, well I felt useful
[21:08:39] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: What do the servers run again?
[21:08:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> hey, getting him back in the ring's worth it
[21:09:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> Subsentient, ubuntu 14.04 lts and some version of centos or other on beryllium
[21:09:16] <SirFinkus> I think the idea was that I'd help answer questions in IRC, juggs was going to set up a channel or something but it hasn't really materialized or been needed yet I guess
[21:09:39] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Ahh. I like Red Hat distros for server stuff, not gonna lie. Actually, I just like Red Hat distros.
[21:09:44] <Subsentient> Except the systemd. Eeww.
[21:09:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> i like slackware. beta init systems are for chumps.
[21:10:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> on servers at least
[21:10:14] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: What do you run at home?
[21:10:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> ubuntu 14.04 on my file server
[21:10:44] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Desktops?
[21:11:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> used to be the roomie's desktop and we repurposed it without changing distros
[21:11:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> arch
[21:11:12] <Subsentient> ahh
[21:11:20] <Subsentient> I thought for some reason you'd be an Arch guy.
[21:11:38] <Subsentient> of course, I'm a masochistic build-it-from-scratch kind of guy.
[21:11:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> i like fresh stuff but i like binary packages too.
[21:12:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> i hate compiling my entire system before i can use it would mean entirely too long between pr0n times
[21:13:02] <SirFinkus> gentoo is fun to fuck with
[21:13:14] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Well I'm writing Packrat so I can build a system for any CPU in minutes.
[21:13:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> arm64?
[21:13:55] <Subsentient> that's the plan
[21:13:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> noice
[21:14:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> get it stable before i burn out this beastie and i may give it a shot
[21:14:32] <Subsentient> Ratfiles are config files that tell packrat what permanent non-autodetectable dependencies a package has, how to compile it, how to pull off a DESTDIR to build a package, package version etc, tarballs we extract to get the source we need, etc
[21:15:46] * TheMightyBuzzard scratches his chin
[21:16:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> gonna be another hour before i can justify dinner cooking but i got fuck all to do right now.
[21:17:00] <Subsentient> Packrat keeps dependency information in catalogs outside packages, so you can have a big pile of .pkrt packages, run a command to auto-detect libraries, and have it build an accurate list of requirements for 99% of packages.
[21:18:53] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: You sitting there bored eh?
[21:19:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> pretty much. rtfm-ing on nginx
[21:22:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> man, i wanna play with nginx now. plenty of good tweaking to be done to it
[21:22:47] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Why not sit down for a nice hot mug of gerbil semen instead?
[21:22:49] <FatPhil> I'm gonna try to migrate all my new services to nginx
[21:23:03] <FatPhil> I'm too apache/modperl2-oriented, and that's pretty clumsy.
[21:23:13] * Subsentient slides FatPhil a sticky mug filled with a lukewarm white liquid
[21:23:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> Subsentient, don't wanna wash dishes.
[21:23:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> nothin clumsy about perl. it's as elegant as you wanna make it.
[21:24:03] <Subsentient> Richard Gere Farms fresh gerbil semen. "The semen that makes you smile! (tm)"
[21:25:49] * TheMightyBuzzard ponders
[21:27:27] * Subsentient contemplates how packrat is still a huge ass big project
[21:27:53] <Subsentient> I'm kinda writing it in "C with templates"-esque C++.
[21:28:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> you would.
[21:28:11] <Subsentient> I love operator overloading and templates and namespaces, but the rest of C++ doesn't interest me too much.
[21:28:26] <Subsentient> and by templates, I mean I really love the C++ standard containers.
[21:28:46] <FatPhil> C++ from 1992
[21:28:46] <Bender> karma - c: 56
[21:28:58] <FatPhil> Bender--
[21:28:58] <Bender> karma - bender: 2
[21:29:02] <FatPhil> Bender--
[21:29:02] <Bender> karma - bender: 1
[21:29:02] <FatPhil> Bender--
[21:29:02] <Bender> karma - bender: 0
[21:29:03] <FatPhil> Bender--
[21:29:03] <Bender> karma - bender: -1
[21:29:26] <Subsentient> I'm taking the "write code fast" route of the XKCD "write fast or write good" dichotomy.
[21:29:49] <Subsentient> And I'm abusing C++ features to make it easy to write my code.
[21:29:57] <Subsentient> Fuck type safety.
[21:30:01] <Subsentient> Right in the pooper.
[21:30:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> !grab Subsentient
[21:30:15] <Bender> Added quote 745
[21:30:22] * FatPhil loves type safety.
[21:30:43] <Subsentient> FatPhil: I like static typing, but I like being able to explicitly break it very easily.
[21:30:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> type safety annoys me but as long as it's a suggestion rather than a rule, that's fine.
[21:30:55] <FatPhil> That makes writing code way quicker, as it makes debugging a million times easier, as you write fewer bugs
[21:31:35] <Subsentient> FatPhil: Here's an example of my C++ atrocities: http://pastebin.com
[21:31:40] <Wesley> ^ 03[C++] struct PkString : public std::string { //Wrapper to make std::string more fri - Pastebin.com
[21:31:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> if i need an i32 to be a u32, i don't wanna hafta argue with a compiler
[21:32:37] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: The C standard guarantees you can safely type-pun between signed or unsigned integers of the same type.
[21:33:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, you can do the same in rust. perl of course don't give even a tiny fuck.
[21:33:46] <Subsentient> In C, you can also type pun literally anything into a char (or any 8-bit type really)
[21:34:13] <Subsentient> I think FatPhil died from aneurysm reading my code.
[21:34:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> that 128 bit int you wrote? sure, we can use it as a string instead. no hoops.
[21:35:02] <Subsentient> You can do that in C, technically, but you better hope the last byte of those 16 is a zero. And endianness matters.
[21:35:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> finicky-assed language
[21:35:28] <Subsentient> lol
[21:35:45] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Well, it's because strings are just arrays of const char in C and C++
[21:35:53] <FatPhil> operator+(void) is a bit smelly. But std::string's full of smell.
[21:35:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> s'why i dearly lurve coding in perl. it don't argue with me.
[21:36:10] <Subsentient> I think in C, it's arrays of char, no const, but you're still not allowed to modify it
[21:36:19] <Subsentient> (string literals I mean)
[21:36:35] <FatPhil> Subsentient: there's nothing *safe* about the integer conversions in C
[21:36:37] <Subsentient> FatPhil: That's done so I can do +String to get it into a va_arg function.
[21:36:54] <Subsentient> instead of String.c_str()
[21:36:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> smoke break
[21:36:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> nicotine++
[21:36:55] <Bender> karma - nicotine: 86
[21:37:00] * Subsentient rolls another
[21:37:55] <Subsentient> FatPhil: It'd really be easier to write a far better string, but I'm just too lazy to give a damn, so I made PkString wrapper instead
[21:39:04] <Subsentient> FatPhil: So what do you prefer, everything signed or use unsigned when possible?
[21:40:14] * Subsentient uses 'unsigned' or 'size_t' when he can because it's kinda self-documentation
[21:40:41] <Subsentient> Also makes bitwise stuff easier in case I lose my mind and want to do that to a for loop increment.
[21:41:28] <Subsentient> !quote 745
[21:41:28] <Bender> Quote 745 - <Subsentient> Right in the pooper.
[21:41:43] <FatPhil> I chose each type carefully. I prefer unsigned everywhere, as it's easier to detect overflows without invoking UB.
[21:42:01] <FatPhil> I try to avoid in-band error detection.
[21:42:04] <Subsentient> FatPhil: Good man! You're the first guy I met around who isn't an int-tard.
[21:42:25] <Subsentient> unsigned types exist for a reason
[21:42:38] <Subsentient> using signed when unsigned is perfectly usable seems wasteful
[21:42:53] <Subsentient> and I think some CPUs take slightly more effort in doing signed calculations than unsigned
[21:42:59] <FatPhil> int try_something(types *inputs, unsigned int *result_r); // returns success or faiure values
[21:43:24] -!- weeds has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[21:43:38] <FatPhil> Then again, that's because it's coding standard for the project I'm working on currently which is nearly 15 years old
[21:44:11] * Subsentient just uses bool whenever he can, or creates an error enum in the case of C, or an exception class in C++
[21:44:22] <Subsentient> I hate magic numbers
[21:44:28] <FatPhil> Having said that, I wrote an overloaded int helper function just earlier today :(
[21:44:45] <FatPhil> negative = fail, >=0 = unsigned result :-(
[21:45:13] <Subsentient> FatPhil: That's pretty reasonable actually.
[21:45:28] <Gravis> Subsentient: <Subsentient> and I think some CPUs take slightly more effort in doing signed calculations than unsigned <-- not if it was made in the last 30 years
[21:45:57] <Subsentient> meh
[21:46:14] <Subsentient> Gravis: So where do you stand? int everywhere or unsigned when possible?
[21:46:39] <FatPhil> the result is guaranteed to be "small", so I felt I could get away with it. But it is against the coding standard
[21:46:46] <Gravis> only use signed when needed.
[21:46:52] <Subsentient> Gravis: :^D
[21:47:42] <Gravis> it doesn't save anything but it does give you the option of a higher maximum value
[21:47:43] <Subsentient> Gravis: You ever do things in C or C++ that are obscure just because you think it'd be funny for the next guy to need to open up the language standard to understand it?
[21:47:46] <FatPhil> the problem with unsigned is that sometimes is complicates loops, as you can't just break on < 0
[21:48:02] <Gravis> Subsentient: no
[21:48:06] <Subsentient> aww
[21:48:19] <Subsentient> FatPhil: I'm a goto guy for loops myself.
[21:48:20] <FatPhil> It's not funny when you have to look at it in 5 years time
[21:48:27] <Gravis> Subsentient: however, i do utilize the entire standard
[21:48:30] <FatPhil> ewwwwww!!!!
[21:48:38] * Subsentient laughs hysterically
[21:48:59] <Subsentient> FatPhil: No I mean, I'll use goto and labels to break out of a loop
[21:49:00] <FatPhil> Only goto forwards, or for massively-simplifying retry situations.
[21:49:13] <Subsentient> or to restart an outer loop
[21:49:31] <Gravis> Subsentient: use "break;" to break out of loops
[21:49:32] <Subsentient> It's not uncommon to see labels that say "label: ;" in my code
[21:49:38] <Subsentient> Gravis: Doesn't work for nested loops
[21:49:47] <FatPhil> error handling is almost always goto for me, I learnt that while I was a kernel dev.
[21:50:08] <Gravis> Subsentient: if you need to break out of nested loops then you are likely doing it wrong
[21:50:28] <Subsentient> I like goto. I think it's kinda misunderstood. it's possible to write really bad code with it, but it's not inherently evil.
[21:50:30] <FatPhil> Keep all the good expected stuff in a nice non-indented straight line. Return from the end of that. Then do your error handling at the bottom with labels.
[21:51:03] <Subsentient> Gravis: I do nested loops to avoid separating things into multiple functions. Just yesterday I wrote a function with loops nested three deep.
[21:51:20] <Subsentient> And I have a goto in there somewhere
[21:51:21] <Deucalion> only 3?
[21:51:23] <Gravis> Subsentient: i mean, if you are going to use a goto like that then you might as well use exception handling
[21:51:45] <Subsentient> Gravis: I don't use goto for error handling except in C, and I do use exceptions in a few places.
[21:52:09] <Gravis> exceptions can be nifty but they have serious overhead
[21:52:10] <Subsentient> Exceptions are kinda cool actually
[21:52:15] <Subsentient> yeah I know
[21:52:21] <FatPhil> breaking a multiply nested loop using exceptions is *just plain wrong*
[21:52:33] <Gravis> same goes for runtime type information
[21:52:53] <Subsentient> FatPhil: Then you really won't like what I do with the comma operator in do-while loops.
[21:52:56] <FatPhil> what, rtti is just plain wrong?
[21:53:28] <Subsentient> do { bullshit(); } while (++Inc, TestCondition > 0);
[21:53:33] <Gravis> FatPhil: no, it has serious overhead
[21:54:22] <Gravis> it's the bloat in C++ that C programmer complain about
[21:54:30] <FatPhil> == do { bullshit(); ++Inc; } while (TestCondition > 0);
[21:54:35] <Subsentient> I have also been known to use block statements to destroy a big variable on the stack I was done with.
[21:54:58] <Subsentient> FatPhil: If your loop is big, then you need a goto to make sure it does the increment on a 'continue;'
[21:55:02] <FatPhil> it's only if there's a continue that you need the comma operator in the while
[21:55:05] <Subsentient> My way eliminates that
[21:55:39] <Subsentient> I also use the comma operator for "if (whatever) Dosomething(), DoSomethingElse();
[21:55:45] <FatPhil> it looks like you've introduced an additional invariant though
[21:56:13] <FatPhil> == if (whatever) { Dosomething(); DoSomethingElse(); }
[21:56:55] <Subsentient> also for a given vector std::vector<type> T, I do 'type *Ptr = &T[0];' for efficiency
[21:57:17] <Gravis> Subsentient: i'm a bit sad they removed "register" from the spec because it can be useful for embedded platforms.
[21:57:28] <Subsentient> Gravis: They did that when?
[21:57:36] <Gravis> C++11
[21:57:46] <Subsentient> Really? C++11?
[21:57:51] <Subsentient> Huh.
[21:57:53] <Subsentient> That is sad.
[21:58:00] <Subsentient> I use it in a few places in my C stuff
[21:58:23] <FatPhil> I gave up on C++ in ~2002, as the language exploded with bloat by then.
[21:58:37] <Gravis> honestly, it's only useful for low level stuff like emulation but it can be useful.
[21:58:42] <Subsentient> Most notably, SubStrings is riddled with inefficient, misguided 'register' declarations in a desperate attempt at optimization
[21:58:48] <FatPhil> It's a useful optimiser hint.
[21:58:59] <FatPhil> Removing it is retarded, it does no harm
[21:59:09] <Subsentient> Agreed
[22:00:08] <Gravis> they also removed the arbitrary struct member initialization stuff. e.g. { .x = 4 } is no longer valid
[22:00:25] <Subsentient> Gravis: hey, you're wrong. The C++11 draft still recognizes register and defines what it does
[22:00:25] <FatPhil> Jeebus, that's even more retarded.
[22:00:28] <Gravis> it was useful
[22:00:40] <FatPhil> That was one of the things that C correctly borrowed back off C++
[22:00:42] <Subsentient> FatPhil: C++ never supported designated initializers. That's a C99 thing.
[22:01:01] <FatPhil> you sure? Hmm, may have been a compiler extension
[22:01:05] <Subsentient> There is NO C++ standard that supports designated initializers.
[22:01:14] <Subsentient> yeah, gcc accepts trivial ones in C++
[22:01:18] <FatPhil> back in the days when there were C/C++ compilers
[22:01:20] <Subsentient> but not advanced ones
[22:01:32] <Gravis> Subsentient: you checked the spec or just tried with gcc?
[22:01:35] <FatPhil> I think BCC had it too
[22:01:39] <Subsentient> Gravis: Checked the spec
[22:01:45] <Gravis> Subsentient: link
[22:01:59] <Subsentient> Gravis: 7.1.1 clause 3
[22:02:03] <Subsentient> C++11 draft
[22:02:26] <Gravis> Subsentient: link
[22:02:34] <Subsentient> Gravis: https://universe2.us incoming password
[22:02:41] <FatPhil> I've never even bothered downloading the most recent 2 C++ drafts, I have turned my back on the language, and shaken the sand off my soles
[22:03:00] <Gravis> Subsentient: link that works
[22:03:08] <Subsentient> Gravis: I just gave you one
[22:03:13] <Subsentient> Gravis: and I sent a password
[22:03:23] <Subsentient> check pms
[22:04:19] <Gravis> i'm not bothering with pointless authentication
[22:04:23] <FatPhil> C's not perfect, a million miles from it, things like complex were utterly retarded. No idea who was behind that, but I'm glad they removed it from the core language requirements.
[22:04:51] -!- crutchy [crutchy!~crutchy@709-27-2-01.cust.aussiebb.net] has joined #Soylent
[22:04:58] * Subsentient likes variable length arrays
[22:05:15] * Subsentient waits for the hatred
[22:05:25] <FatPhil> syntactic sugar for alloca
[22:05:28] * crutchy likes them too
[22:05:47] <Subsentient> FatPhil: alloca puts it on the heap and isn't standard
[22:05:57] <Subsentient> VLAs put it on the stack and are standardized since C99
[22:06:12] <Gravis> hmm... ahh, it's C++17 that is deprecating it. http://en.cppreference.com
[22:06:17] <Wesley> ^ 03C++ keywords: register - cppreference.com
[22:06:36] <Subsentient> Gravis: I thought so. I knew C++ was trying to get rid of it, but I knew it wasn't done in any existing standard.
[22:06:40] <crutchy> i dunno what pascal's setlength uses
[22:06:53] <crutchy> they're still awesome though :)
[22:07:01] <Gravis> i do ponder why they are trying to deprecate it
[22:07:18] <Subsentient> I dunno, maybe a futile attempt at removing cruft from a massively bloated language?
[22:07:36] <Subsentient> C++98 isn't bad. People hate it, but I certainly don't.
[22:08:05] <Subsentient> It takes too much typing compared to C++11 at times, but it's more than good enough.
[22:08:37] <Subsentient> It's still got a hell of a lot more features than C99, though I admit, I really miss designated initializers in C++.
[22:08:38] <FatPhil> Subsentient: alloca is BSD and linux portable, but not posix. And is stack not heap.
[22:08:54] <Subsentient> FatPhil: hmm, interesting.
[22:09:08] <Gravis> Subsentient: it's not bloated. seriously, i use all the features when i need them.
[22:09:26] <FatPhil> probably best avoided, given that there's a VLA to replace it portably.
[22:09:43] <FatPhil> I'm just saying "it's not a new idea, it's been available for decades"
[22:09:44] <Subsentient> Gravis: Oh it's bloated, but I don't mind. C++98 is pretty decent, and C++11 adds a lot of stuff I wanted.
[22:09:44] <Gravis> FatPhil: VLA?
[22:09:54] <Subsentient> Gravis: Variable length array, something you C++ people don't get.
[22:10:11] <Gravis> Subsentient: vectors work just fine
[22:10:15] <Subsentient> char MyArray[ArbitraryRuntimeInteger]
[22:10:17] <crutchy> gold is up 24%. despite all the pessimism about it. things must really be in the shit
[22:10:22] <FatPhil> Gravis: Variable Length Array
[22:10:30] <Subsentient> Gravis: yeah but they have the heap allocation penalty.
[22:10:47] <Gravis> Subsentient: only if don't reserve the max size you might need
[22:11:38] <Subsentient> Gravis: Point is, in C99 and C11, we don't need a vector, or malloc, because we can use VLAs for stack based arrays of random sizes.
[22:11:46] <crutchy> you guys should just use visual basic like all the other cool kids :p
[22:11:53] <Subsentient> lol
[22:12:14] <Gravis> Subsentient: you can until you fuck it up and then you are really fucked.
[22:12:17] <FatPhil> visual basic was only ever useful for writing lame viruses
[22:12:41] <Subsentient> Gravis: How do you mean?
[22:12:43] <crutchy> Gravis, being fucked is pretty common after fucking up
[22:12:53] <FatPhil> subsentient: C's even better, VLAs can be parameters to functions too.
[22:13:03] <Gravis> Subsentient: don't fuck with the stack.
[22:13:13] * Subsentient just relies on array-pointer decay for FatPhil 's suggestion
[22:13:14] <Gravis> Subsentient: it's a good way to get yourself in trouble
[22:13:17] <FatPhil> int foo(int m, double n[m][m]); // etc.
[22:13:33] <Subsentient> Gravis: Just make sure you aren't allocating 1MB before you enter the scope of the VLA.
[22:15:01] <Gravis> Subsentient: better idea, don't fuck with the stack.
[22:15:28] <Subsentient> Gravis: If it were that dangerous, it wouldn't be part of the C99 language spec. C lets you shoot yourself in the foot, but if you are careful, VLAs are a nice feature.
[22:15:38] <FatPhil> how do you fuck it up
[22:15:47] <crutchy> FatPhil, by pushing too hard :p
[22:15:51] * Subsentient sticks his hard little rat penis in the stack
[22:16:05] <FatPhil> C guarantees stack cleanup, even when longjumping
[22:16:24] * crutchy pops Subsentient's stack cherry
[22:16:24] <FatPhil> crutchy: no difference with fixed sized arrays there, though
[22:16:35] <FatPhil> so it's no the VLA that's specifically the problem
[22:16:50] <Gravis> FatPhil: simple, the same way you fuck up normal arrays. it just has the potential to be a lot messier on the stack
[22:17:00] <Subsentient> Gravis: Normal arrays are allocated on the stack.
[22:17:05] <Subsentient> Gravis: you know that right
[22:17:35] <crutchy> basically what Gravis means is that they are the same... but different... but the same... but oh so different
[22:17:36] <Subsentient> unless it's static storage duration, in which case, it ends up often as a big lump in your binary. I know from experience.
[22:18:02] <FatPhil> auto variables are auto (he says deliberately using language that C++-ites will misinterpret)
[22:18:44] * Subsentient exploits static globals with a little program he wrote to embed arbitrary files in C/C++ source
[22:18:59] <Gravis> Subsentient: you are talking about fixed sized arrays. i'm thinking about new/malloc() based arrays which are heap based
[22:19:54] <Subsentient> Gravis: VLAs work the same as normal arrays, except their size is determined upon entering their scope. From a programming perspective, it doesn't matter unless you're allocating 1MB (WIndows has a 2MB stack IIRC)
[22:20:16] <Subsentient> Ooh, this might be useful to you guys: http://universe2.us
[22:20:25] <FatPhil> VLAs can be less than the maximum you expect, compile time sized arrays can only ever use the maximum you expect.
[22:20:41] <FatPhil> => VLA safer than constant
[22:21:03] <Subsentient> yup
[22:21:33] <Subsentient> Literally the only thing to worry about with VLAs is accidentally allocating a huge number.
[22:22:38] <Subsentient> FatPhil: I use that file2header thing of mine for embedding PNG images etc in my programs.
[22:22:46] <Subsentient> Standalone binaries with resources. :^D
[22:22:58] <Subsentient> Also usable to make extractors for small collections of files.
[22:23:17] <Subsentient> I think whatever you put in there gets loaded into memory at runtime, so don't try it with a 1GB file.
[22:23:22] <FatPhil> I'd just use stdin/stdout, and leave it at []. sizeof/sizeof gives you the number of elements, it doesn't need to be human readable.
[22:24:06] <Subsentient> FatPhil: you talking about the file2header thing or to gravis?
[22:24:17] <FatPhil> f2h. Oh, and I never ever ever ever even think about the merest possibility of there being a "text" stream.
[22:24:36] <FatPhil> unix or death
[22:24:44] <Subsentient> FatPhil: Well you can do this to create standalone Windows binaries that have the entire program, including resources, in one single exe file.
[22:24:52] <Gravis> FatPhil: well... we're fresh out of unix.
[22:24:54] <GungnirSniper> Give me OS/2 or give me Windows!
[22:25:40] <FatPhil> given that unix is dominating the server space, the consumer electronics space, and the mobile phone space, it looks like windows is the minority OS now
[22:25:49] <Subsentient> FatPhil: My WZBlue program has its icons generated with file2header and loaded directly into GTK
[22:26:56] <Gravis> FatPhil: linux isn't a unix
[22:27:02] <Subsentient> It's pretty damn close.
[22:27:04] <FatPhil> icons are for pointy-clicky weenies
[22:27:14] <Subsentient> FatPhil: Yeah well I wrote that program for weenies.
[22:27:33] * Subsentient just noticed he has 17 terminals open
[22:27:37] <FatPhil> It's only not a "unix" as the people who own the IP of the unix trademark say it isn't.
[22:27:38] <Gravis> GUIs have thier place
[22:27:43] * Subsentient doesn't remember what he was using most of them for
[22:27:52] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - A Million Eyeballs Scanned for Google DeepMind - http://sylnt.us - the-eyes-have-it
[22:28:11] <Gravis> FatPhil: well it doesn't have a complaint userland
[22:28:22] <Subsentient> true, but it's close enough for me.
[22:28:29] <FatPhil> how are you defining compliance?
[22:28:45] <Subsentient> FatPhil: POSIX compliance probably
[22:28:47] <FatPhil> I bet you I can find a non-compliance in any currently available unix
[22:28:48] <Gravis> FatPhil: passing the POSIX complaince tests?
[22:29:05] <Subsentient> Same with C/C++ compilers
[22:29:33] <Gravis> FatPhil: no, those are just mascarading as UNIX, they aren't actually UNIX.
[22:30:01] <Subsentient> Gravis: Your definition of UNIX makes literally no OS available today a true UNIX.
[22:30:05] <FatPhil> so you're playing no true scotsman?
[22:30:15] <FatPhil> how is this advancing the discussion we were having?
[22:30:40] <Gravis> FatPhil: if it doesn't mean the standards for being a UNIX, it's not a UNIX.
[22:30:50] <Gravis> FatPhil: the standards are well known.
[22:31:19] <Subsentient> Gravis: There is nothing that's actually POSIX compliant out there. There's those that claim to be, but none of them are 100%.
[22:31:22] <FatPhil> in that case UNIX isn't UNIX
[22:31:26] <Gravis> FatPhil: it's not arbitrary an therefore not the "no true scotsman" argument
[22:31:43] <FatPhil> How does that advance the discussion we were having before you started no tru scotsman pedantry?
[22:31:57] * Subsentient sighs
[22:32:15] <Gravis> Subsentient: i think their are some that are complaint
[22:32:24] <Subsentient> Gravis: I'm sure they think they are too
[22:32:32] <Subsentient> I guarantee, there's one violation in all of them
[22:32:34] <Subsentient> at least one
[22:32:44] <Gravis> Subsentient: how?
[22:33:00] <Subsentient> Gravis: Human imperfection.
[22:33:09] <FatPhil> feature creep
[22:33:26] <FatPhil> doing more than the spec ususally means you're not following the spec.
[22:33:56] <Gravis> Subsentient: NASA has flawless code, so it's impossible to meet basic standards.
[22:34:11] <FatPhil> even busybox does more than the posix spec for some of the tools.
[22:34:41] <Gravis> FatPhil: as long as it can do everything a UNIX can do, then it's a UNIX.
[22:35:03] <Gravis> FatPhil: there is a difference between complaince and conformance.
[22:35:16] <Gravis> proper spelling being one of those differences
[22:35:43] <FatPhil> :)
[22:36:41] <FatPhil> GNU added so many features that people wanted that almost every other unix-alike inherited some of them
[22:37:15] <Gravis> FatPhil: that's fine, just don't claim they are UNIX
[22:37:50] <FatPhil> name one UNIX then
[22:38:10] <Gravis> FatPhil: GNU turned into a bloated abomination
[22:38:14] <FatPhil> name one UNIX then
[22:38:40] <Gravis> FatPhil: i think AIX
[22:38:46] <FatPhil> name one current UNIX then
[22:39:53] <Gravis> Latest release 7.2 / October 5, 2015; 8 months ago
[22:39:54] <Gravis> -_-
[22:40:38] <FatPhil> Just because they haven't realised it's dead doesn't mean it's not dead
[22:41:07] <Gravis> it's still used
[22:41:38] <Gravis> it's put on brand new systems even
[22:41:39] <FatPhil> yup, government contracts, etc.
[22:41:51] <FatPhil> big systems, money no object.
[22:42:07] <FatPhil> however, 8" floppies are still in use in such situations.
[22:42:09] <Gravis> FatPhil: so now UNIX has to be inexpensive to be a UNIX?
[22:42:27] <FatPhil> COBOL's still used in such situations.
[22:42:27] <Deucalion> I still work with SCO servers in one particular retail chain :/ When was that last a "current" UNIX?
[22:42:30] <Gravis> FatPhil: no, some machines on the Top 500 use AIX
[22:44:44] <Gravis> 494 or 98.8% of the world's fastest supercomputers use the Linux kernel. The remaining six or 1.2%, run the AIX Unix variant operating system.
[22:45:05] <Gravis> Since November 2015, no computer on the list runs Windows
[22:45:07] <Gravis> :DDDDD
[22:48:07] <Deucalion> Guess the majority don't want to be tied to proprietary UNIX in what... a decade or so? Linux makes sense commercially as you can get paid support for production and run dev / testing / QA etc. without support costs.
[22:48:08] <Gravis> nice: https://www.top500.org
[22:48:14] <Wesley> ^ 03IBM Flex System p460, POWER7 8C 3.550GHz, Infiniband QDR | TOP500 Supercomputer Sites
[22:48:34] <FatPhil> It seems that AIX does try very hard to stick to just bare-bones POSIX, nothing more.
[22:48:35] <Gravis> Deucalion: i think it's more about closed vs open source
[22:48:57] <Deucalion> Gravis, it's business... it's always about the money :P
[22:49:28] <Gravis> Deucalion: not if you are the person trying to get it to run on you system which isn't a support arch. -_-
[22:49:31] <Gravis> supported*
[22:50:28] <Deucalion> Again - a business decision.... probably cheaper to port to another arch. For personal shits n giggles... meh whatever
[22:51:18] <FatPhil> POWER and Linux have worked well together for ages. As soon as I got my loaner Mac G5, I booted it into linux.
[22:51:50] <Gravis> Deucalion: cheaper? umm... what part of "unsupported architecture" don't you understand?
[22:51:57] <Gravis> which*
[22:53:04] <Gravis> FatPhil: not helpful if you are using a jillion coprocessors from nvidia
[22:54:05] <Deucalion> CUDA processing stuff?
[22:54:59] <FatPhil> in that case, the master CPU's pretty irrelevant
[22:58:34] <Gravis> Deucalion: CUDA? -_-
[23:03:33] <Gravis> FatPhil: all the top systems are manycore based
[23:04:12] <Gravis> well... several of them
[23:05:38] <FatPhil> yebbut linux/power is well represented
[23:06:16] <Deucalion> Gravis, yah CUDA - you know, nVidia's GPGPU parallel processing chippery and associated framework. But I guess you are talking about the even more expensive more multi-core processing stuff that nVidia do for climate modelling and the like.
[23:06:17] <Gravis> FatPhil: sure, bluegene is up there
[23:07:32] <Gravis> Deucalion: it was a rhetorical question. it was intended to be something akin to "CUDA, seriously? you're being serious right now?"
[23:08:36] <Deucalion> Gravis, am I to know what you're using by osmosis? Oh wait, here comes a unicorn to inform me now.
[23:08:38] <FatPhil> OpenCL is the portable replacement now isn't it?
[23:09:04] <Gravis> Deucalion: the "-_-" was the hint.
[23:09:35] <Gravis> FatPhil: yes... and it has been replaced by vulcan! :)
[23:09:47] <FatPhil> I've gone all low-power in the last half-decade. If it requires a fan, I'm not interested in it any more.
[23:10:03] <Gravis> FatPhil: well... more specifically, opencl is now implemented using vulcan.
[23:10:18] <Gravis> vulkan*
[23:10:31] <FatPhil> yup
[23:11:52] <Gravis> vulkan is what has been needed to make a competitive open source video card.
[23:11:55] <FatPhil> that's more for the 3D graphics workloads than number-crunching nodes thoug
[23:12:17] <FatPhil> yeah, it's where the huge mass market is.
[23:12:46] <Gravis> FatPhil: a strip club?
[23:12:52] <Gravis> ;)
[23:14:05] <FatPhil> you can hear that too? I should close my window.
[23:14:12] <FatPhil> the joys of living downtown
[23:14:16] <Gravis> FatPhil: HP-UX is another modern UNIX.
[23:14:47] <FatPhil> I personally saw the final HP-UX box dumped onto a skip at one place where I worked
[23:15:31] <Gravis> Solaris too
[23:15:55] <FatPhil> One confusion with POSIX is that XSI has extended it, so that there's an ambiguity. You can do either of two behaviours, and both are "correct".
[23:16:21] <Gravis> tru dat
[23:16:57] <FatPhil> the usual not-a-POSIX distinguisher is echo -n, but that's one of the things that XSI confuses
[23:20:28] <FatPhil> frick, it's late, should hit the sack
[23:25:28] -!- mythterj has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
[23:32:33] <FatPhil> frick, there's a group of opera singers walking past now...
[23:33:05] <swiss> i'd like to get rid of the last of our HP-UX
[23:34:31] <FatPhil> vendor lock-in was always huge for the big guys
[23:36:30] <FatPhil> Hmm, at the previous job to the last HPUX box, I saw the last minivax dumped into a skip.
[23:36:41] <FatPhil> I seem to bring death and destruction to old crates
[23:37:02] <FatPhil> anyway, night all
[23:38:02] -!- fliptop has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
[23:59:03] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - The 6-Year-in-the-Making Chilcot Report Into the Iraq War Has Been Published - http://sylnt.us - what-was-it-good-for?