#Soylent | Logs for 2015-12-20
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[00:16:03] <crutchy> ~weather
[00:16:05] <exec> 12Traralgon VIC - currently 38°C, sunny, wind NW at 32 km/h, humidity 17% - Sunday scattered showers (13°C:42°C), Monday partly cloudy (9°C:23°C), Tuesday mostly sunny (13°C:26°C), Wednesday scattered showers (14°C:28°C)
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[00:37:45] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Down From the Trees, Humans Finally Got a Decent Night’s Sleep - http://sylnt.us - zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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[01:07:08] * TheMightyBuzzard yawns
[01:08:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> just did christmas dinner/gifts cause of weird scheduling this year
[01:09:48] <mythterj> I'm thinking we should do Xmas every other year as soon as nest is empty.
[01:11:07] <cmn32480> ~join #wiki
[01:11:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm thinking of skipping it entirely next year. i don't particularly dig crowds and i have a big family.
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[01:17:40] <SirFinkus> Thanksgiving is a much better holiday than Christmas
[01:18:11] <SirFinkus> minimal bullshit, no gifts, only obligation is that you bring booze or some kind of dish if you want
[01:18:41] <mythterj> That, and being american.....
[01:19:41] <SirFinkus> Independence Day can be fun, but I haven't really given a shit about fireworks since I got guns
[01:20:09] <SirFinkus> firecrackers are cute, .45ACP is louder
[01:21:04] <SirFinkus> making IEDs can be fun
[01:21:33] <mythterj> I used to think .45 was loud till I got a Beretta Model 92 (similar to us army standard sidearm).
[01:22:50] <mythterj> Full top of slide is open, breach is actually open before pressure has had time to vent through muzzle. Miserable weapon to shoot.
[01:23:51] <SirFinkus> I shot a S&W revolver chambers in .500 Mag once
[01:23:55] <SirFinkus> now THAT was loud
[01:24:05] <SirFinkus> louder than my rifles I think
[01:24:54] <SirFinkus> it was the 4 inch barrel one too
[01:25:35] <SirFinkus> oh good lord, the make one with a 2 3/4 inch barrel
[01:25:38] <SirFinkus> fucking madness
[01:26:32] <mythterj> I used to do my own loads for .44mag, and even bear loads didn't seem as loud to me as that 9mil.
[01:26:32] <SirFinkus> it's probably more of a flamethrower
[01:27:02] <mythterj> There comes a point where you can't burn it all before it exits.
[01:27:04] <SirFinkus> I've shot .44 mag and .500 is another animal
[01:27:43] <SirFinkus> recoil is like taking a baseball bat and swinging it as hard as you can at a fence post or something
[01:27:47] <crutchy> ~weather
[01:27:51] <crutchy> derp
[01:28:04] <cmn32480> still fighting the internet connection which exec resides behind
[01:28:06] <SirFinkus> crutchy, you jealous of our FREEDOME
[01:28:07] <SirFinkus> ?
[01:28:11] <cmn32480> need a minute or two more
[01:29:02] <crutchy> its 41 deg outside. prolly a little cooler inside. my brain no worka
[01:29:13] <cmn32480> fucking comcast
[01:29:27] <SirFinkus> yeah, fuck comcast
[01:30:03] <cmn32480> pretty much
[01:30:12] <SirFinkus> my mosin is probably louder than the .500, but the .500 was a one time thing
[01:30:20] <SirFinkus> so it's hard to compare them
[01:32:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> holy crap yall went full yacky on me whilst i was coding
[01:33:27] <SirFinkus> I'm watching a retard on youtube evaluate the stopping power and accuracy of a S & W 500 ES shooting cardboard at 6 yards
[01:34:03] <SirFinkus> "I must say" must you? really?
[01:34:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, thas fairly retarded
[01:35:41] <SirFinkus> I did 3 rounds when I got to shoot one, at around 15 yards probably
[01:35:50] <SirFinkus> first one was a bullseye, then I got scared lol
[01:36:03] <SirFinkus> down and to the left etc
[01:36:07] <SirFinkus> hard not to
[01:36:27] <mythterj> Was your first reaction after firing "What the fuck happened?"
[01:36:54] <SirFinkus> it was kind of the same feeling I got after I broke my leg
[01:37:16] <SirFinkus> you might have had similar experiences if you've been in a car accident or been seriously injured
[01:37:26] <SirFinkus> there's a moment weird detachment
[01:38:42] <SirFinkus> it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, I expect more movement from the gun itself, but I guess I had a good hold on it
[01:38:49] <SirFinkus> just a lot of impact
[01:39:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> heh, ass pansy
[01:39:21] <SirFinkus> like I said, baseball bat into a metal flagpole or something
[01:39:31] <SirFinkus> have you shot one?
[01:40:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, only a fully automatic .50 cal.
[01:40:17] <SirFinkus> well, that's a rifle, different animal
[01:40:18] <cmn32480> Ma Deuce?
[01:40:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> never a civilian weapon
[01:40:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> it gave me machine gun wood
[01:41:29] <SirFinkus> I'm no pro, but I can do 6 inch groups at 1 round per second at 15 yards with my .45, I could probably do better if it was so fucking expensive to shoot
[01:41:41] <SirFinkus> not impressive, but he's dead
[01:42:37] <K_benzoate> Anyone watching the debate?
[01:43:40] <chromas> there's another?
[01:43:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> why are they bothering having those still? it's gonna be clinton vs trump unless one of them starts stomping puppies.
[01:44:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> #reload
[01:44:04] <MrPlow> TheMightyBuzzard: Reloaded
[01:44:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> #roll 3d6 times=2 throwback=1
[01:44:31] <MrPlow> Pass 1: 6
[01:44:31] <MrPlow> Pass 2: 13
[01:44:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> noice
[01:45:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> one lil tweak...
[01:45:18] <SirFinkus> or the candidates that even have a remote chance of winning, I'd probably vote for sanders because he seems to be the least facist, which is a bit ridiculous
[01:45:26] <SirFinkus> *of
[01:46:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> #reload
[01:46:47] <MrPlow> TheMightyBuzzard: Reloaded
[01:47:04] <SirFinkus> might watch the clinton sanders debate later just because there's been lots of shit flinging over the past few days
[01:47:18] <SirFinkus> political intrigue with the DNC
[01:47:26] <SirFinkus> which is just SHOCKING
[01:47:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> sanders has no chance of winning though. you can NOT claim to be a socialist and win a US presidential election.
[01:47:58] <SirFinkus> true, but I'd take him over Trump any day
[01:48:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> not me. i'm with trump. us trolls gotta stick together.
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[01:48:59] <SirFinkus> I disagree with Sanders, but Trump is actually alarming
[01:49:25] * TheMightyBuzzard chuckles
[01:50:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> lot of people think that but most of em are not gonna vote red anyway
[01:51:08] <SirFinkus> only republican I'd consider is Rand Paul, but LOLNOTINAMILLIONYEARS
[01:51:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, that could never happen
[01:52:31] <SirFinkus> last debate they seemed to spend most of the time trying to one up each other on to what extent they'd violate our constitutional rights
[01:52:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> unless he gets shot or gets caught saying nigger, trump's prolly gonna be president.
[01:53:01] <SirFinkus> "constitutional" is the wrong word
[01:53:34] <SirFinkus> the rights are natural ones, the constitution just legally guarantees them
[01:53:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[01:53:41] <SirFinkus> allegedly
[01:54:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> zactly. see the 2nd and how strangely construed "shall not be infringed" has become.
[01:54:33] <SirFinkus> more concerned with the first at this point
[01:54:41] <SirFinkus> but really, all of them
[01:54:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> yurp. fookin sjws.
[01:54:50] <SirFinkus> except the 6th was it?
[01:54:57] <SirFinkus> or was it the 3rd
[01:55:00] <SirFinkus> quartering troops
[01:55:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> 4th is pretty big on my mind as well. goddamned gubermint spyin on everyone.
[01:55:22] <SirFinkus> yeah, the thirds
[01:55:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> that just means the wife can kick your ass out of the house if you're a guard/reserve member
[01:56:13] <SirFinkus> she can kick you out of the house anyway
[01:56:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> unless you kick her out first
[01:56:35] <SirFinkus> "No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law." not really under attack
[01:56:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> whoever's ass is outside when the cops show up loses
[01:57:06] <SirFinkus> well, she's married to you, so then she gets a lawyer you pay for and ends up with the house in the end
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[01:57:09] <SirFinkus> most of the time anyway
[01:57:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, well, joke's on her cause the mortgage goes with the house.
[01:58:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> #roll 3d100 times=32
[01:58:34] <MrPlow> Wiseass
[01:58:48] <cmn32480> I gotta meet the comcrap tech at work tomorrow at 8am
[01:58:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> #roll 3d100 throwback= 101
[01:58:51] <MrPlow> Pass 1: 164
[01:59:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> hrm, that shouldn't have worked
[01:59:10] <SirFinkus> so lets go over the bill of rights and analyze how that whole thing is going
[01:59:31] <chromas> We should re-enable 18
[01:59:47] <SirFinkus> "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." actually going pretty well compared to other places globally, but shockingly bad in respect to the actual text of the amendment
[01:59:48] * TheMightyBuzzard kicks chromas in the wedding tackle
[02:00:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> yurp. shat upon regularly.
[02:00:42] * cmn32480 kicks TheMightyBuzzard in the fishing tackle
[02:00:54] * chromas feels married now
[02:00:56] <cmn32480> which one hurts more, ya think?
[02:01:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> ack! you broke my crappie jig!
[02:01:08] <SirFinkus> "free speech zones", protests being disrupted by agent provocateurs, surveillance and harassment of people who speak out against certain policies
[02:01:24] <SirFinkus> "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
[02:01:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> SirFinkus, hows about siccing the irs on your political opponents?
[02:01:46] <SirFinkus> infringed, I can't buy an automatic weapon made after 1984
[02:01:51] <SirFinkus> same deal
[02:01:58] <SirFinkus> I mean, I could mention a lot
[02:02:02] <SirFinkus> you really only need one
[02:02:26] <SirFinkus> "No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law." FLAWLESS RECORD
[02:02:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> pretty much, yup
[02:02:35] <SirFinkus> NEVER come up in the supreme court
[02:02:47] <SirFinkus> "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." lol
[02:02:50] <chromas> We should change that
[02:03:19] <SirFinkus> "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb
[02:03:19] <SirFinkus> ; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
[02:03:43] <SirFinkus> civil asset forfeiture among other things
[02:03:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[02:04:03] <SirFinkus> "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him
[02:04:03] <SirFinkus> ; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."
[02:04:06] <SirFinkus> LOLOLOL
[02:04:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> speedy alone blows that shit away
[02:04:48] <SirFinkus> people waiting YEARS for trials, shitass public defenders etc etc
[02:05:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> here in OK if you can afford bail you're assumed to be able to afford a lawyer and you will NOT see trial for at least a month.
[02:05:06] <SirFinkus> and if you're a "terrorist" you get none of that
[02:05:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> so stay in jail at least a month or forfeit your right to a public defender
[02:05:57] <SirFinkus> "In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law." I'll pass on that one, because it seems outdated as fuck and the rules I've heard seem kind of reasonable
[02:06:29] <SirFinkus> "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." torture, solitary confinement etc etc
[02:07:07] <SirFinkus> "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." too many to list, but "THERE'S NO RIGHT TO PRIVACY IN THE CONSTITUTION" is a common argument
[02:08:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> pretty well implied in the 4th
[02:08:21] <SirFinkus> "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." This one's a bit of a rats nest, but I'd argue that the commerce clause has been abused to subvert this right so basically the feds can do anything
[02:08:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> yup
[02:08:55] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Top 25 Science News of 2015 - http://sylnt.us - annual-roundup
[02:08:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> fuck the commerce clause. i'd rather have inter-state tariffs than what we have now.
[02:09:16] <SirFinkus> of the ones that matter, I'd argue the first has stood up the best, which isn't saying much
[02:09:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya
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[02:10:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> quit breaking exec, cmn32480
[02:10:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> yer as bad as crutchy
[02:10:18] <SirFinkus> we still have nazis, and the supreme court usually rules pretty consistently in favor of it when cases show up
[02:10:54] <cmn32480> #smake TheMightyBuzzard
[02:10:54] * MrPlow smakes TheMightyBuzzard upside the head
[02:11:15] <cmn32480> don't dis crutchy.... he's my current idol!
[02:11:23] <cmn32480> and he tolerates me being a moron
[02:11:29] <crutchy> wat?
[02:11:37] <SirFinkus> I'd argue that establishment clause violations get snuck through on a regular basis, but usually go away under scrutiny
[02:11:42] <crutchy> lol i was watching a movie
[02:11:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> crutchy, he's learnin at yer feet on how to have an unreliable bot =P
[02:12:28] <crutchy> it would be the bot it is without all the bustups :)
[02:13:10] <SirFinkus> usually violations of the speech parts involve the government harassing you and trying to find some kind of dirt on you to arrest you under some other law rather than arresting you for having an opinion directly
[02:13:28] <cmn32480> ~weather
[02:13:29] <exec> 10Baltimore, MD, USA - currently 35°F / 2°C, clear, wind W at 4 mph, humidity 47% - Saturday clear (30°F:42°F / -1°C:6°C), Sunday mostly sunny (37°F:44°F / 3°C:7°C), Monday cloudy (49°F:54°F / 9°C:12°C), Tuesday scattered showers (52°F:57°F / 11°C:14°C)
[02:13:34] <crutchy> ~weather
[02:13:36] <exec> 12Traralgon VIC - currently 41°C, mostly sunny, wind NW at 43 km/h, humidity 15% - Sunday showers (13°C:41°C), Monday partly cloudy (9°C:23°C), Tuesday mostly sunny (13°C:26°C), Wednesday scattered showers (14°C:27°C)
[02:13:37] <SirFinkus> violates the spirit, but not really the letter of the law
[02:13:40] <SirFinkus> ~weather
[02:13:42] <exec> 10Olympia, WA, USA - currently 42°F / 6°C, mostly cloudy, wind S at 16 mph, humidity 82% - Saturday rain (40°F:44°F / 4°C:7°C), Sunday showers (38°F:44°F / 3°C:7°C), Monday rain (39°F:43°F / 4°C:6°C), Tuesday rain (37°F:43°F / 3°C:6°C)
[02:13:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, and laws are so complex and arcae that you're in violation just by existing.
[02:14:59] <SirFinkus> we've had a pretty poor history with the first amendment, we might actually be improving on that
[02:15:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can be my vice-emperor when i take over north america.
[02:16:04] <crutchy> hail oh mighty fish lord
[02:16:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> doesn't mean you get to be emperor when i'm assassinated. means you get the 2nd bullet.
[02:16:20] <crutchy> s/i/oo/3
[02:16:20] <sedctl> <crutchy> hail oh mighty foosh lord
[02:16:44] <SirFinkus> but wouldn't our powers be constrained by congress? I mean, all we can do is veto laws and appoint justices, it's not like we can give orders or enact laws
[02:17:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> emperor not president
[02:17:31] <SirFinkus> I had a new government concept, I'm trying to work it out
[02:17:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> if it makes any sense, nobody will ever take it seriously
[02:18:04] <SirFinkus> instead of picking representatives to decide all the laws, we have a congress that is elected like it is now
[02:18:05] <crutchy> i like the one your founders came up with. it was pretty awesome
[02:18:14] <SirFinkus> get rid of the senate imo
[02:18:25] <SirFinkus> but the congress doesn't vote on the laws
[02:18:34] <crutchy> reddit does!
[02:18:35] <SirFinkus> they just decide which bills are worth voting on
[02:18:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> senate was good to slow down insane popular opinion, back when it was appointed instead of elected.
[02:19:00] <SirFinkus> then we elect people to decide each individual bill
[02:19:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> 3/4 majority required to pass ANYTHING
[02:19:39] <crutchy> capitalism works well. people vote everyday on every purchase
[02:19:42] <SirFinkus> yeah, that makes sense
[02:20:19] <SirFinkus> so my system has a number of advantages I think
[02:20:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> you sound like you'd dig heinlein
[02:21:00] <SirFinkus> first off, it's just one vote, so people that actually work in the fields they're voting about can continue working in those fields
[02:21:10] <SirFinkus> it'd just be like jury duty, a minor pain in the ass
[02:21:33] <SirFinkus> laws would pass slower
[02:21:42] <crutchy> communism was supposed to be a perfect system. unfortunately people got involved
[02:21:54] <crutchy> people tend to fuck things up
[02:22:01] <K_benzoate> Hillary said she doesn't know enough about technology to know how a secure Govt backdoor would work with encrypted communications, but a "Manhattan Project" with Silicon Valley could do it.
[02:22:02] <SirFinkus> no bullshit pork added to irrelevant bills, like the cisa thing
[02:22:14] <SirFinkus> congress isn't allowed to edit
[02:22:39] <K_benzoate> I'm sure this thing I don't know anything about is possible! Nerds, get to it!
[02:22:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> K_benzoate, ya, that would completely work because nobody could ever figure out that your crypto isn't really secure at all but only looks that way.
[02:22:56] <SirFinkus> the influence of lobbying is diffused, since campaigns are less monolitic
[02:23:02] <crutchy> K_benzoate, win for ca tech companies :)
[02:23:12] <crutchy> lobbyists unite!
[02:23:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> fuck em. i'm sticking with foss crypto and they can suck it.
[02:23:36] <K_benzoate> It's not even hard to explain why it's impossible.
[02:24:03] <SirFinkus> in a lot of cases, people would be voting for the lobbyists directly rather than through a layer of obfuscation
[02:24:10] <crutchy> its hard to explain to a clueless liberal
[02:24:14] <K_benzoate> Can your device/comms be decrypted without the keys/password that you have? If yes, it's not secure.
[02:24:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod. it takes exactly one disgruntled worker and your entire nation just became utterly insecure.
[02:24:40] <SirFinkus> some bullshit bull about carbon taxes? you believe that it's a good idea? vote for Elon Musk to vote on the bill
[02:25:20] <SirFinkus> if the fucker is FROM YOUR DISTRICT
[02:25:37] <crutchy> if only they stopped subsidizing other players in the energy sector. oh but we cant have that
[02:25:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> attended school in your district
[02:25:50] <crutchy> pork!
[02:25:51] <SirFinkus> selling your vote is a crime, jail time crime
[02:26:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> make voting tied to where you spent the majority of your formative years.
[02:26:26] <crutchy> voters shouldnt go to jail for electing a crook. the crook should go to jail for being a crook
[02:26:39] <SirFinkus> and it's a direct issue by issue thing, so it's easier to root out bribes
[02:27:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> that way you can't have clinton moving to NY cause AR wouldn't elect her.
[02:27:23] <crutchy> too many people think that politicians are innocent for accepting bribes :/
[02:27:27] <SirFinkus> if some fuck votes for the carbon tax, and just happens to receive a brand new model s free of charge, its easier to connect the dots
[02:27:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> yar
[02:27:38] <crutchy> 'its the ebil corporations!'
[02:27:45] <SirFinkus> I think that goes too far TheMightyBuzzard
[02:28:07] <SirFinkus> and I don't think it'd change the results much
[02:28:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> why? don't really matter where you vote from.
[02:28:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> not for national level stuff
[02:28:41] <SirFinkus> that's what I'm talking about
[02:28:47] <SirFinkus> federal laws
[02:30:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> zactly. it's no big deal to have to vote where you grew up. it is however bad to be able to move to a more friendly venue if your current one hates your ass.
[02:30:44] <SirFinkus> I don't see the point of voting being tied to where you spent your formative years
[02:31:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> arbitrary to stop electorate shopping
[02:31:30] <SirFinkus> but the elections happen every time a new bill worms it's way through congress
[02:31:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> could be wherever you lived on your 18th birthday for all it matters
[02:32:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya but you will still have professional politicians. they'll just have to talk more.
[02:32:14] <SirFinkus> so you'd need people in all fields to try and swap districts around
[02:32:49] <SirFinkus> oh, and the districts would be decided with a mathematical algorithm, not gerrrymandering
[02:33:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> s'fine
[02:33:49] <SirFinkus> I like the idea of having the people who decide which laws to vote on, and the people who actually vote on them being separate groups
[02:33:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> anyway, ima go watch me some tv and hit the sack. you lot take care.
[02:34:10] <crutchy> cya
[02:34:11] <SirFinkus> don't hit it too hard
[02:34:45] <SirFinkus> it's just an idea I'll bring up when the revolution comes and I'm one of the founding fathers
[02:35:25] <SirFinkus> probably has holes, but it's worth exploring
[02:36:17] <SirFinkus> oh, and I didn't address capitalism solving everything
[02:36:43] <SirFinkus> I believe it's good for most things, but it needs to be regulated in certain fields
[02:36:53] <SirFinkus> stuff like natural monopolies
[02:38:00] <SirFinkus> and the patent/copyright situation needs a rework. They probably aren't strictly capitalist ideas anyway, but I think copyright and patent laws are valuable if they are reasonable
[02:39:59] <crutchy> ~weather
[02:40:00] <exec> 12Traralgon VIC - currently 39°C, mostly sunny, wind NW at 42 km/h, humidity 16% - Sunday showers (13°C:40°C), Monday partly cloudy (9°C:23°C), Tuesday mostly sunny (13°C:26°C), Wednesday mostly sunny (14°C:27°C)
[02:40:17] <crutchy> yay its cooling down!
[02:41:05] <SirFinkus> it's 42 degrees here
[02:41:16] <SirFinkus> you're a weenie for thinking its too hot
[02:41:20] <SirFinkus> my heater is going
[02:41:37] <crutchy> i come from planet hoth
[02:41:45] <SirFinkus> ahh
[02:41:53] * SirFinkus goes off to do the dishes
[02:43:14] <crutchy> natural monopolies are very difficult to form without government favors
[02:43:37] <crutchy> patents, licenses, subsidies, etc
[02:45:30] <crutchy> even existing monopolies are difficult to maintain without continued government interference in markets
[02:45:56] <crutchy> free market is very good at chopping down tall poppies
[02:53:23] <SirFinkus> not really
[02:53:46] <SirFinkus> I have one power pole that goes to my house
[02:54:06] <SirFinkus> just like I have on road, one water pipe etc
[02:55:27] <SirFinkus> you could argue that I should have 4 or 5 different power poles, but there isn't enough space, and I wouldn't want that kind of world anway
[02:55:49] <SirFinkus> it'd be ugly, inefficient, and expensive
[03:02:23] <cmn32480> yes. but if the power company is granted a monopoly, it must be regulated and kept from amkeing massive profits because of said monopoly
[03:02:45] <SirFinkus> basically what I'm saying
[03:02:45] <cmn32480> my thought is that all public utility companies ought to be non-profits
[03:03:14] <cmn32480> or PBC's, or co-ops owned by the customers
[03:03:38] <SirFinkus> they basically are in my state, at least for electricity or water
[03:03:45] <cmn32480> not here
[03:04:08] <SirFinkus> not quite non profit, but you're able to operate on thin margins
[03:04:09] <cmn32480> they are for profit (read: screw everybody as hard as possible)
[03:04:22] <SirFinkus> the margins are regulated
[03:04:26] <cmn32480> right
[03:04:31] <cmn32480> and that is what maryland used to have
[03:04:32] <crutchy> roads and utilities should be a state thing
[03:04:40] <crutchy> no need for feds to be involved
[03:04:50] <cmn32480> yes and no
[03:04:55] <SirFinkus> the trouble is with major infrastructure upgrades and repairs
[03:04:59] <cmn32480> many power companies cross state lines here
[03:05:04] <cmn32480> particularly the nuclear plants
[03:05:12] <crutchy> that's ok
[03:05:16] <cmn32480> ~weather Bel Air
[03:05:19] <exec> 10Bel Air, MD, USA - currently 29°F / -2°C, clear, wind W at 6 mph, humidity 65% - Saturday clear (27°F:39°F / -3°C:4°C), Sunday sunny (34°F:44°F / 1°C:7°C), Monday cloudy (46°F:52°F / 8°C:11°C), Tuesday scattered showers (48°F:57°F / 9°C:14°C)
[03:05:26] <cmn32480> ~weahter
[03:05:29] <crutchy> chilly
[03:05:30] <cmn32480> ~weather
[03:05:33] <exec> 10Baltimore, MD, USA - currently 34°F / 1°C, clear, wind SW at 4 mph, humidity 50% - Saturday clear (30°F:42°F / -1°C:6°C), Sunday mostly sunny (37°F:44°F / 3°C:7°C), Monday cloudy (49°F:54°F / 9°C:12°C), Tuesday scattered showers (52°F:57°F / 11°C:14°C)
[03:05:51] <crutchy> you guys got snow?
[03:05:51] <cmn32480> ~weather-add Bel Air MD
[03:05:52] <exec> name "Bel" set for location "Air MD"
[03:06:08] <cmn32480> ~weather bel
[03:06:09] <exec> syntax: ~weather <location>
[03:06:15] <cmn32480> that's what I thought
[03:06:22] <cmn32480> ~weather-delete bel
[03:06:30] <crutchy> nowhere called air, md
[03:06:35] <cmn32480> right
[03:06:40] <cmn32480> it is bel air, MD
[03:06:55] <crutchy> ~weather-add
[03:06:56] <exec> syntax: ~weather-add name location (name cannot contain spaces but location can contain spaces)
[03:07:05] <SirFinkus> so the trouble with infrastructure is that you need money ahead of time in case something breaks
[03:07:12] <cmn32480> agreed
[03:07:31] <SirFinkus> or if something needs to be upgraded before it breaks
[03:07:33] <cmn32480> so they are allowed to keep $X in the bank as a contingency
[03:07:43] <cmn32480> $50 million
[03:07:49] <cmn32480> $100 million
[03:07:53] <cmn32480> $1 billion
[03:07:55] <cmn32480> whatever
[03:08:04] <crutchy> SirFinkus, jumbo jets cost lots of money too. if there is a perceived market, companies will fill it
[03:08:09] <cmn32480> but beyond that number, the $$ goes back to the customers
[03:08:12] <crutchy> its in their interest to
[03:08:19] <SirFinkus> the trouble is, deciding the number shouldn't be a political decision, nor should be a business decision
[03:08:41] <SirFinkus> I have extensive personal experience in this field
[03:08:42] <cmn32480> take a littel from column A adn little from Column B
[03:09:01] <cmn32480> decide by throwing darts
[03:09:16] <crutchy> if there is nobody to build a road, and those living there really want a road, they will make it happen
[03:09:16] <SirFinkus> my strategy would be to make the risk pool as large as possible
[03:09:38] <crutchy> they will also do it for the best price
[03:09:53] <crutchy> because it will be their own money/effort
[03:09:59] <SirFinkus> nope, roads take physical space, you're going to have an asshole who doesn't want a road going through their orange grove
[03:10:10] <SirFinkus> which is why you need regulation
[03:10:17] <crutchy> maybe, but at least thats a very localized problem
[03:10:26] <crutchy> local solutions should prevail
[03:10:52] <crutchy> maybe a council vote or something
[03:11:02] <SirFinkus> so that's a government solution
[03:11:12] <crutchy> not federal though
[03:11:28] <crutchy> libertarianism isn't about *no* government
[03:11:35] <crutchy> its about sensible government
[03:11:37] <SirFinkus> what is the difference?
[03:11:45] <SirFinkus> federal vs state when it comes to roads
[03:11:47] <crutchy> between local and federal?
[03:11:54] <crutchy> lol huge differences
[03:12:22] <crutchy> like, if one state wastes all its money on pointless shit, it only drags that state down
[03:12:42] <crutchy> the rest of the country isnt on the hook (well, shouldnt be)
[03:13:33] <crutchy> the more you can limit risk, the less likely will be huge consequences
[03:13:38] <SirFinkus> I'm aware of the anarchy = libertarianism strawman
[03:13:51] <crutchy> yeah its popular in the media
[03:14:47] <SirFinkus> ok, so you're building a rail line from one side of the state to the other, it's a monolithic project with huge economic incentives if the entire thing actually gets done
[03:14:55] <SirFinkus> but if it doesn't, it's useless
[03:15:20] <crutchy> if a state wants a railway, good for them
[03:15:40] <crutchy> they can pay for it
[03:16:06] <SirFinkus> that one asshole state happens to have a convenient path trough a mountain range, but the guy who owns the land wants a ridiculous amount of money because he knows he can kill the entire project if he refuses
[03:16:17] <crutchy> not really
[03:16:32] <SirFinkus> how does pure capitalism solve this
[03:16:33] <crutchy> local laws usually include some sort of ability for councils to aquire land
[03:17:32] <crutchy> in fact the only way for the guy opposing to overturn would be to follow the cahin of courts up
[03:17:37] <SirFinkus> ahh, so what if the locality makes unreasonable demands on the federal government so that they can use their powers to aquire the land for the railroad?
[03:17:39] <crutchy> even seen the movie 'the castle'?
[03:17:44] <SirFinkus> nope
[03:18:08] <crutchy> how does a local government have the ability to make demands of the federal government?
[03:18:19] <crutchy> the feds should just tell them to fuck off
[03:18:42] <SirFinkus> because in your system, they can stymie the feds plan for a coast to coast railroad
[03:18:51] <crutchy> possibly
[03:19:07] <crutchy> a coast to coast railroad should only be possible if all states involved want it
[03:19:17] <crutchy> so there must be a case put forward
[03:19:34] <crutchy> no point making it if its not wanted
[03:19:43] <SirFinkus> possibly? So if one state involved doesn't like it, they can fuck the entire remainder of the country
[03:19:53] <crutchy> well, yeah i guess. why not?
[03:20:08] <crutchy> unless the other states make their case to a federal court
[03:20:19] <crutchy> (similar to 'the castle')
[03:20:25] <SirFinkus> ahh, a federal court, that's federal regulation again
[03:20:34] <crutchy> yeah its like an arbitrator
[03:20:39] <crutchy> at the highest level
[03:20:50] <crutchy> that's kinda the point of supreme courts
[03:21:17] <crutchy> not regulation though
[03:21:22] <SirFinkus> which was basically my point, that the federal government needs power to get shit done in the case of natural monopolies
[03:21:29] <crutchy> dont mix regulation with arbitration
[03:21:39] <SirFinkus> I consider price controls when it comes to buying land regulation
[03:21:53] <crutchy> price controls are horrible things
[03:22:24] <SirFinkus> "you can't charge 500 billion for your land because you're the last asshole with private land in the way of a railroad" is a price control and a regulation
[03:22:52] <crutchy> that just makes it cheaper to route around said asshole
[03:23:03] <crutchy> why would you argue with him?
[03:23:25] <SirFinkus> so this asshole is imposing a massive cost on the rest of society
[03:23:30] <crutchy> not really
[03:23:46] <SirFinkus> now trains have to go around the mountain range instead of through his valley
[03:23:48] <crutchy> if its really that expensive to route around one guy, then maybe the cost is too high anyway
[03:24:09] <SirFinkus> yeah, if he owns a critical piece of real estate, it is
[03:24:34] <SirFinkus> or maybe the feds just say "fuck it" and don't do it
[03:24:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> newp, it's his land and the rest of the world be damned.
[03:24:41] <SirFinkus> everybody loses
[03:25:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> or they pay him what he thinks it's worth.
[03:25:13] <cmn32480> that's the problem
[03:25:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> eminent domain is vile
[03:25:23] <crutchy> if a railway through this assholes land was really worth it, the asshole would be paid what he wants
[03:25:23] <SirFinkus> which could be completely unreasonable
[03:25:27] <cmn32480> HE could say it is worth $5 billion dollars
[03:25:32] <crutchy> otherwise, the railway through his land isn't worth it
[03:25:50] <crutchy> if his land is critical, it may be worth that much
[03:25:52] <SirFinkus> or maybe, he doesn't want to sell it
[03:26:01] <cmn32480> but he may own 5 acres in a critical pass that will requirte hundreds of miles of rerouting
[03:26:02] <SirFinkus> indian graveyard or some shit
[03:26:09] <SirFinkus> he's just an asshole
[03:26:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> yup. you either pay the people standing in your way every penny they ask or you go the fuck around. you do NOT steal from citizens for "the common good"
[03:26:14] <crutchy> the question is, how bad do you want his land?
[03:26:42] <cmn32480> there is a question of what is "reasonable"
[03:26:45] <crutchy> same as when you buy something. "oh fuck that phone is a ripoff!"
[03:26:52] <crutchy> how bad do you want it?
[03:27:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> reasonable has nothing to do with it. supply and demand does.
[03:27:23] <cmn32480> I agree, Eminent Domain suks
[03:27:25] <crutchy> nobody has the right to tell apple how much to charge for their phones
[03:27:35] <crutchy> same as the guy with his land
[03:28:16] <crutchy> if its stiing on toip of the worlds biggest oil deposit, he should sell it for trillions
[03:28:22] <crutchy> cos someone will pay that maybe
[03:28:44] <crutchy> if he asks too much, people will just drill from the side :p
[03:28:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> right, now for the real question... does anyone else here ever hear "lemon in the butt" rather than "eminence front" in the song of the same name?
[03:29:06] <crutchy> ew
[03:29:10] <crutchy> that would sting
[03:29:20] <crutchy> i imagine (not speaking from personal experience)
[03:29:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> or rather did you before cause yer damn sure gonna now
[03:29:36] <crutchy> lol
[03:29:59] <SirFinkus> so the entire argument is "one asshole" vs "everyone else" I'm onboard with "one asshole" most of the time, but there's a certain point where the ratios don't work out
[03:30:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> SirFinkus, newp. there is no such point.
[03:30:51] <crutchy> its a guy with land vs people who want his land
[03:30:54] <Deucalion> TheMightyBuzzard, what would happen in your anarchist world (with you as dictator - let's just let that dissonance go for now) - would the land "owner" get to force the railroad to reroute or would the masses just kill them and put the railroad where they see fit?
[03:31:08] <SirFinkus> and part of the reason we all have electricity, universal postal services, and phone lines is because we forced people to accept government use of their land
[03:31:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, either, both.
[03:31:34] <Deucalion> fucking politicians - never answer a quaestion :P
[03:31:35] <crutchy> SirFinkus, one way the council might be able to "convince" the asshole to sell is to jack up rates
[03:31:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> course they'd have to pay his heirs and someone would go to jail.
[03:31:40] <crutchy> but that would affect everyone
[03:31:47] * crutchy is not advocating that :p
[03:32:18] <SirFinkus> so really, you're advocating federal control, just obfuscated a bit by the local authorities
[03:32:27] <crutchy> basically yeah
[03:32:41] <crutchy> at least people can move away from asshole local authorities
[03:32:53] <Deucalion> into the domain of the next one over
[03:32:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> there is no situation where the good of the many outweighs the rights of the individual.
[03:33:19] <Deucalion> that's an outlier position TMB
[03:33:19] <crutchy> there are always problems with any authority. libertarianism is about limiting the damage it can do
[03:33:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, lately, yes. a couple hundred years ago, not really.
[03:33:41] <crutchy> if you give too much power to a federal authority, it can fuck up the entire country
[03:33:59] <crutchy> at least a local authority going nuts will only affect a local area
[03:34:41] <cmn32480> ok so take this scenario
[03:34:56] <cmn32480> there is a river, with a very nice valley
[03:34:58] <crutchy> also, people tend to have more say in how local authorities are run
[03:35:10] <cmn32480> gov't and power company want to put a hydroelectric dam in
[03:35:15] <Deucalion> TMB, say I am the sole carrier of a killer virus for which there is no cure, should I be allowed to wander unhindered into a centre of highly concentrated population? The result of which would be millions dead. Whereas taking me out would be the sensible option.
[03:35:23] <crutchy> so a local authority run amok could be more easily be rectified by local residents than feds
[03:35:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, you should be shot down for attempting to infringe on everyone else's right to life.
[03:35:56] <cmn32480> the one asshole who refuses to sell gets to put the kybosh on that project because he doesn't want his land under water?
[03:36:04] <Gravis> Deucalion: to be perfectly honest, the planet has an overpopulation problem, so... :P
[03:36:14] <crutchy> cmn32480, nah you just pay the guy
[03:36:23] <cmn32480> he doens't wanna sell
[03:36:28] <cmn32480> utterly refuses
[03:36:28] <crutchy> everyone has a price
[03:36:36] <crutchy> *everyone*
[03:36:43] <Deucalion> TheMightyBuzzard, but then you would be infringing on my right to my life.
[03:37:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> when rights collide, it is easy to sort out where they should begin and end. it's when you start trying to conflate desires of the many with a right.
[03:37:03] <cmn32480> A guy looks at his wife adn says "Woudl you sleep wiht that guy for $50?
[03:37:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> that problems start cropping up.
[03:37:10] <cmn32480> She saiys "No, of course not"
[03:37:24] <cmn32480> He replies "Woudl you do ti for a million dollars?"
[03:37:28] <cmn32480> she says "Yes"
[03:37:32] <crutchy> pretty much
[03:37:36] <Gravis> that cheating whore!
[03:37:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, your rights end where they begin to infringe on the same of others. precisely there.
[03:37:40] <crutchy> humans will be human
[03:37:53] <cmn32480> He looks at his son and says, so we have determined that your motther is a whore, now we are haggling over the price
[03:38:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> rights, not desires and not the common good.
[03:38:06] <crutchy> cmn32480, i doubt that would be the discussion :p
[03:38:25] <cmn32480> it's a joke, son
[03:38:30] <cmn32480> smile and laugh!
[03:38:31] <crutchy> the question would be how badly do they want the money
[03:38:43] <crutchy> if they didn't need a million dollars, they might ask for a billion
[03:38:53] <crutchy> at which point the offer might be withdrawn
[03:39:24] <crutchy> free markets work pretty well like that
[03:39:38] <Deucalion> TMB, then we have a problem in situations where people are living on top of each other in densely populated cities. The individuals end up with no rights as anything they do will affect another individual.
[03:39:47] <cmn32480> my point wiht the dam is do you kill the entire project because of the one ass hole, or do you just tell him to fuck himself and flood his land
[03:40:02] <Gravis> crutchy: lulz! that is not how capitalism works.
[03:40:08] <crutchy> you look for another place to build said dam, or you pay the asshole
[03:40:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> rights don't go away, they simply narrow in scope. a fine argument against living in cities.
[03:40:23] <crutchy> Gravis, what the hell would you know about capitalism dude lol
[03:40:31] <Deucalion> TMB, touche
[03:40:52] <Gravis> crutchy: capitalism is using anything you can leverage to win.
[03:40:57] <crutchy> lol
[03:41:01] <crutchy> i rest my case
[03:41:07] <Gravis> crutchy: money is only one option.
[03:41:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> also, cities are full of poor bitches who don't know living is cheaper and they wouldn't be as poor if they just simply left the city.
[03:41:31] <Gravis> crutchy: if it's profitable, they will do it.
[03:41:33] <Deucalion> The jerbs for the poor are in the city though
[03:41:36] <crutchy> Gravis, yes
[03:41:43] * TheMightyBuzzard uses a crowbar on Gravis to win this argument
[03:41:54] <crutchy> profit is the reason why capitalism works. its a very powerful motivator
[03:42:05] <crutchy> its the reason why people get off their asses
[03:42:13] <Deucalion> greed is the reason...... ftfy
[03:42:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, nah, everyone in the country is just as poor and they have jobs and live cheaper.
[03:42:22] <Gravis> crutchy: it's also how laws get bought and people get sued for bullshit
[03:42:22] <crutchy> Deucalion, true
[03:42:34] <cmn32480> that is why everybody in the country has an RV!
[03:42:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> get it, crowbar... leverage...
[03:42:36] <crutchy> Gravis, no, corrruption in government is how laws get bought
[03:42:52] <Gravis> crutchy: oh so now capitalism is perfectly moral?
[03:42:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> nobody appreciates me
[03:42:54] <Gravis> bullshit!
[03:43:11] <Gravis> crutchy: you said it, everyone has a price
[03:43:12] <cmn32480> TMB: <groan>
[03:43:12] <crutchy> corporations can only buy laws if corrupt politicians put them up for sale in the first place
[03:43:26] <crutchy> Gravis, yeah there will always be corruption in government
[03:43:34] <crutchy> that's the reason why government needs to shrink
[03:43:35] <crutchy> duh
[03:43:51] <Gravis> that's retarded logic
[03:43:57] <cmn32480> crutchy> everyone has a price
[03:43:57] <Gravis> you can't even name what to remove
[03:44:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> power
[03:44:13] <Deucalion> If the only way to come to power within political spheres is to take moneyed interests on board - then that is what will happen. Don't hate the player, fix the system :)
[03:44:13] <crutchy> everyone has a price, so if you give politicians power, they will sell it
[03:44:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> every bit that isn't absolutely necessary
[03:44:34] <Gravis> TheMightyBuzzard: that would be the "effective parts" which is the only part crutchy wants to keep
[03:44:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> you strip the fed down to nothing but a bookkeeping role basically
[03:44:58] <crutchy> Gravis, what are you talking about?
[03:45:04] <crutchy> hehe
[03:45:24] <Gravis> crutchy: do you not remember? i asked which parts to get rid of and you replied, "the ineffective parts"
[03:45:31] <crutchy> yeah
[03:45:34] <crutchy> there are lots
[03:45:36] <cmn32480> the fed meaning the bank or the fed meaning the gov't
[03:45:49] <crutchy> federal reserve maybe
[03:45:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> the govt. the other needs to gtfo entirely.
[03:46:00] <Gravis> crutchy: the hilarious part is you can't name anything sane to get rid of.
[03:46:05] <crutchy> i did
[03:46:10] <crutchy> you just didn't agree with it
[03:46:17] <crutchy> which was entirely expected :p
[03:46:17] <SirFinkus> "[19:32:55] <+TheMightyBuzzard> there is no situation where the good of the many outweighs the rights of the individual." really? no situation? that's seems like an absolutist, almost religious position, and is really the tradeoff between anarchy and civilization to begin with
[03:46:19] <Deucalion> Ye gads, I just noticed it's saturday night and #soylent is doing politics. I am going to leave you guys to rectify the world - I expect it done by the time I wake up :D
[03:46:20] <Gravis> getting rid of the EPA is not sane
[03:46:47] <crutchy> it is perfectly sane if you look at what the EPA actually does as opposed your fantasy of what you think it does
[03:46:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> SirFinkus, it is absolutist. my belief in individual liberty is absolute.
[03:47:26] <cmn32480> the EPA and many other regulatory agencies are, on their face, rather illegal
[03:47:29] <SirFinkus> so I should have the right to burn piles of styrofoam in my backyard, even if my neighbor doesn't like it?
[03:47:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> getting rid of the irs is. i can show you how to never have to collect a single involuntary cent of tax.
[03:47:43] <crutchy> SirFinkus, no you have the right to sue
[03:47:48] <cmn32480> they create regulation that has the force of law, but has not been approved by Congress.
[03:47:56] <SirFinkus> I'm burning my property on my property
[03:48:07] <crutchy> actually depends
[03:48:16] <crutchy> a lot of people do burn stuff on their property
[03:48:30] <crutchy> local laws generally talk about whether it causes compalint
[03:48:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, i'm currently trying to fiddle while rome burns, so don't tempt me too much.
[03:48:44] <crutchy> you probably have local laws about burning things on your property
[03:48:54] <crutchy> it is a local issue
[03:49:05] <SirFinkus> which is a tradeoff between individual liberty and society
[03:49:26] <Gravis> crutchy: polution is a GLOBAL issue
[03:49:32] <crutchy> Gravis, pfft
[03:49:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> SirFinkus, your rights end where anyone else's begin. why is this so hard to grok?
[03:49:43] <SirFinkus> it isn't
[03:49:56] <crutchy> Gravis, we've already established that you don't really care about the environment
[03:50:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> endangering someone's life with toxic fumes very much infringes their rights
[03:50:14] <Gravis> crutchy: why would you claim that?
[03:50:23] <SirFinkus> the distinction is which rights people believe they're entitled to
[03:50:32] <crutchy> because you think electric cars don't cause pollution
[03:50:49] <crutchy> they cause huge amounts of pollution
[03:50:54] <crutchy> just in someone elses backywward
[03:51:00] <crutchy> *back yard
[03:51:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> see, that's where you need a dictator. to tell you which ones you get and which you don't.
[03:51:25] <Gravis> crutchy: they don't cause pollution, they use electricity. not all electricity is dirty.
[03:51:26] <cmn32480> penis potatoes are great, as long as tehy are benevolent
[03:51:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> and if you disagree, you go shoot him and do the job until someone shoots you.
[03:51:56] <crutchy> Gravis, now we're just going over old ground. look at how those cars are build and where the electricity comes from etc
[03:52:07] * TheMightyBuzzard starts singing The Circle of Life
[03:52:18] <Gravis> crutchy: solar power? sounds great.
[03:52:20] <crutchy> i'm not gunna educate you if you don't care enough about the environment to do your own research
[03:52:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> aight, my bedtime.
[03:52:40] <SirFinkus> you need a framework for regulation because the world doesn't operate in neat little parcels of private property
[03:52:47] <Gravis> crutchy: what you mean is you dont have the facts to back it up because you full of shit
[03:52:56] <crutchy> no you tried that last time too
[03:53:12] <crutchy> then we talked about where rare earths come from.. remember?
[03:53:27] <Gravis> crutchy: recycle, remember?
[03:53:27] <crutchy> you didn't even know what a rare earth was
[03:53:43] <crutchy> Gravis, ever been to a recycling facility?
[03:53:50] <crutchy> its just another way to relocate the problem
[03:54:06] <mrcoolbp> good lord I'm tired
[03:54:13] <crutchy> ~g'day mrcoolbp
[03:54:14] * exec brazenly pours a cold can of dag for mrcoolbp
[03:54:17] <K_benzoate> Hillary ended her closing speech with, "And may The Force be with you."
[03:54:17] <Gravis> crutchy: i'm talking about real recycling
[03:54:18] <crutchy> lol
[03:54:26] <mrcoolbp> nice I needed that, thanks crutchy
[03:54:28] <Gravis> crutchy: your version is the result of capitalism
[03:54:31] <crutchy> Gravis, you don't even know about recycling dude
[03:54:45] <Gravis> crutchy: everything can be recycled, everything.
[03:55:02] <crutchy> maybe, but its not
[03:55:19] <Gravis> crutchy: because it's costs money and your capitalism dont stand for it
[03:55:20] <SirFinkus> well, assuming unlimited energy maybe...
[03:55:26] <crutchy> you can live in your fantasy land, but out in in the real world shit happens
[03:55:31] <Gravis> SirFinkus: we have plenty from the sun
[03:55:36] <crutchy> someone has to pay for it
[03:55:50] <Gravis> crutchy: machine labor
[03:55:56] <SirFinkus> unlimited? hardly
[03:56:00] <crutchy> good grief. this again? lol
[03:56:11] <crutchy> Gravis, machines aren't free
[03:56:12] <SirFinkus> we're pretty bad at harnessing solar power
[03:56:12] <Gravis> SirFinkus: not unlimited, but plenty of power.
[03:56:40] <Gravis> SirFinkus: it's true, solar panels are much better than humans. :P
[03:56:50] <Gravis> SirFinkus: solar power is good enough
[03:56:53] <SirFinkus> highly dependant on location and weather
[03:57:18] <cmn32480> And then we start talking about the pollution from the mining, and the batteries, and the creation of the vehicles
[03:57:21] <mrcoolbp> we need to put some money into solar, energy storage, and rollout some more nuclear, we would be a lot better off
[03:57:24] <SirFinkus> the trouble is transportation of energy from energy rich locations to energy poor locations
[03:57:43] <mrcoolbp> SirFinkus: true
[03:57:48] <mrcoolbp> and storing it
[03:57:57] <crutchy> mrcoolbp, it would happen a lot easier if governments would stop subsidizing their dirty industry lobbyists
[03:58:06] <SirFinkus> oil and coal are often the most efficient and/or convenient ways
[03:58:13] <Gravis> SirFinkus: hardly, just double the amount of solar panels and you will be fine.
[03:58:30] <Gravis> SirFinkus: yes, they are the best at destroying the environment
[03:58:39] <mrcoolbp> crutchy: absolutely, corruption is not a scarce commodity these days though
[03:58:44] <crutchy> true
[03:58:50] <mrcoolbp> = (
[03:59:34] <mrcoolbp> comments on a reddit thread about CISA being passed recently were 90% "good lord this country is completely fucked, let's GTFO now)
[03:59:34] <SirFinkus> batteries are pretty shitty for the environment too
[03:59:49] <mrcoolbp> yessir, there is pumped water storage, but I think it suck
[03:59:51] <mrcoolbp> ss
[03:59:52] <Gravis> SirFinkus: some are
[03:59:54] <mrcoolbp> sigh
[04:00:10] <Gravis> SirFinkus: but again, recycling is a good thing
[04:00:16] <mrcoolbp> gravis: the ones that aren't probably suck at storing the type of enegergy we need
[04:00:18] <SirFinkus> especially on the scale required for replacement of fossil fuels with current tech
[04:00:34] <crutchy> i like pumped storage, but its tricky to engineer and very location-dependent
[04:00:36] <mrcoolbp> s/type/amount and for the duration and in the way that/
[04:00:37] <sedctl> <mrcoolbp> gravis: the ones that aren't probably suck at storing the amount and for the duration and in the way that of enegergy we need
[04:01:32] <SirFinkus> well, you keep saying recycling gravis, but that's not a zero energy proposal
[04:01:35] <Gravis> mrcoolbp: actually, the salt water batteries aren't bad.
[04:02:04] <Gravis> mrcoolbp: they are made of common materials and can go drained to 0
[04:02:39] <Gravis> SirFinkus: well the sun just gives away free energy, so why not use it?
[04:02:45] <crutchy> a lot a greenies really have nfi of the amount of energy that comes from coal plants vs their supposedly 'cleaner' alternatives. in some cases the amount of energy required to implement their solution largely offsets the benefits
[04:02:50] <mrcoolbp> Gravis: I mussed have missed those, they look promising
[04:03:02] <SirFinkus> well, we should, but it isn't going to instantly solve our energy problems
[04:03:34] <Gravis> SirFinkus: i could if there wasn't resistance to it being solved.
[04:03:36] <SirFinkus> I'm a big believer in augmenting our current power grid with decentralized solutions
[04:03:49] <SirFinkus> but I don't think it would cover everything
[04:03:52] <crutchy> SirFinkus, careful you might sound like a libertarian :p
[04:04:15] <Gravis> SirFinkus: ahh, for that which is excessive, there is nuclear
[04:04:32] <crutchy> i like the molten salt nuclear option
[04:04:32] <SirFinkus> try decentralizing water or roads crutchy
[04:04:45] * crutchy actually thinks thorium will power the future
[04:05:01] <crutchy> SirFinkus, it happened in days gone by so its not impossible
[04:05:09] <crutchy> it still happens across national borders
[04:05:28] <SirFinkus> Nuclear is irresponsible in the US at this point
[04:05:33] <Gravis> thorium would be nice but solar+battery is getting cheap fast
[04:06:06] <crutchy> i'm kinda hoping electric cars and charging stations become more popular here
[04:06:10] <crutchy> i think they are gradually
[04:06:26] <crutchy> its a big country though :/
[04:06:46] <Gravis> SirFinkus: there is a LOT of things that are irresponsible in the US that still happen.
[04:07:46] <SirFinkus> that isn't a justification for endorsing future irresponsible actions
[04:08:09] <crutchy> oh wtf! the temp was coming down to 26.9 deg, now its back up to 28.9 deg :<
[04:08:24] <Gravis> SirFinkus: agreed. which is why coal/nat gas has to go. :)
[04:08:27] <cmn32480> ~time crutchy
[04:08:28] <exec> Sunday, 20 December 2015 @ 3:08 pm GMT+11 - Traralgon VIC
[04:09:12] <crutchy> Gravis, tell your government rep to stop giving the coal companies taxpayer dollars then
[04:09:19] <Gravis> crutchy: i have
[04:09:28] <crutchy> spread the word
[04:09:46] <crutchy> if you lobby your reps enough, it may actually happen
[04:09:57] <Gravis> nothing i can do short of shutting it down myself would be enough for you
[04:10:02] <crutchy> if you sit there whinging about capitalism, nothing will change
[04:10:34] <Gravis> crutchy: who said it's not changing?
[04:10:40] <Gravis> crutchy: it's just slow, really slow
[04:10:42] <crutchy> all those idiots at occupy wall stress would have been more productive if they had been lobbying their reps to stop bailing out the banks
[04:10:54] <crutchy> Gravis, true that
[04:11:04] <crutchy> there's a lot of inertia to unwind
[04:11:18] <crutchy> *street ^^^
[04:11:23] <Gravis> crutchy: they would have been more productive if they murdered the people causing the problems, that doesn't make it the right thing to do.
[04:11:39] <crutchy> that wouldn't have solved anything
[04:11:45] <SirFinkus> well, that's a strawman, you just said bitching didn't work and told him to bitch at his representitive
[04:11:47] <crutchy> it would have made new much worse problems
[04:11:57] <SirFinkus> is bitching effective or ineffective?
[04:12:12] <Gravis> crutchy: sure it would. lobbyist causing problems? murder them! rinse repeat. problem solved.
[04:12:15] <crutchy> corporations only listen to their customers, stockholders and employees
[04:12:21] <SirFinkus> inquiring minds want to know
[04:12:48] <Gravis> crutchy: corrupt politicians causing problems? murder them! rinse repeat. problem solved.
[04:12:49] <crutchy> your reps are the ones that are supposed to listen to you
[04:13:00] <cmn32480> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
[04:13:06] <cmn32480> you are hilarious crutchy
[04:13:19] <crutchy> yeah it is kinda tragically funny
[04:13:40] <crutchy> that was the way it used to be though before government got so big
[04:13:43] <Gravis> crutchy: the game is rigged. you can rig it in your favor with murder, it's just not the right thing to do.
[04:14:04] <crutchy> here in australia i lobby my reps
[04:14:05] <Gravis> crutchy: the size of the government has never been the issue.
[04:14:10] <SirFinkus> my representative gets campaign contributions from corporations that have infinitely more power than I do simply by virtue of their coordination and access to capital
[04:14:19] <Gravis> crutchy: you have just deluded yourself into thinking it is
[04:14:38] <crutchy> SirFinkus, then you no longer live in a democracy dude. welcome to the oligarchy of the united states of amercia
[04:14:44] <Gravis> SirFinkus: that's capitalism in action. :)
[04:15:03] <Gravis> crutchy: yep.
[04:15:05] <SirFinkus> so how does pure capitalism prevent this crutchy?
[04:15:17] <crutchy> it cant
[04:15:25] <crutchy> capitalism cant force anyone to do anything
[04:15:50] <crutchy> its not a form of governance
[04:16:05] <crutchy> its an economic system
[04:16:14] <Gravis> hmm... but what if it were. :P
[04:16:14] <SirFinkus> that's a cop out, if corporations can buy laws, I'm governed by them
[04:16:28] <crutchy> no you're governed by the laws
[04:16:33] <crutchy> and those that enforce them
[04:16:46] <SirFinkus> which are bought by the highest bidder
[04:17:11] <crutchy> maybe the guy taking the bids should cease
[04:17:30] <crutchy> cos if you knock off one bidder, another will just take his place
[04:17:37] <SirFinkus> that denies human nature
[04:17:45] <crutchy> no it acknowledges human nature
[04:17:58] <crutchy> everyone has a price
[04:18:01] <Gravis> crutchy: are you saying we should murder out politicians? because i literally mentioned this already.
[04:18:10] <Gravis> our*
[04:18:26] <crutchy> if you don't want your laws sold to the highest bidder, you gotta take the ability of the laws to be sold in the first place
[04:18:42] <crutchy> elimite the laws
[04:18:46] <crutchy> then they cant be bought
[04:18:57] <crutchy> (not that i don't mean *all* laws)
[04:18:59] <Gravis> crutchy: and if those who make the laws don't want that?
[04:19:06] <crutchy> they are your reps
[04:19:19] <Gravis> crutchy: in name only
[04:19:34] <SirFinkus> you don't see how the balance of power favors massive corporations who can afford to throw massive amount of capital at individual representatives rather than grassroots citizen movements?
[04:19:34] <crutchy> if that is the case, don't delude yourself into thinking you have a choice
[04:19:58] <crutchy> either live within your lost freedom, or move elsewhere that hasn't fucked it up yet
[04:20:12] <Gravis> crutchy: you speak as if there are only the two options
[04:20:21] <crutchy> what is the third?
[04:20:25] <crutchy> revolution?
[04:20:25] <Gravis> always
[04:20:34] <Gravis> revolution? too bloody.
[04:20:44] <crutchy> it might still happen
[04:21:08] <Gravis> eventually, maybe
[04:21:33] <Gravis> crutchy: but this goes up there with murdering politicians
[04:21:45] <crutchy> that's kinda what revolution is about, yees
[04:22:25] <SirFinkus> So the CEO of Boeing bought the renewal of the EXIM bank, most people don't even know what EXIM is, but Boeing can put their massive resources into making one law pass. Citizens can barely keep up, much less organize a grassroots movement to buy representatives in a concerted effort to end that bullshit
[04:22:50] <crutchy> SirFinkus, that's basically the definition of an oligarchy
[04:23:09] <SirFinkus> explain to me how pure capitalism prevents that
[04:23:20] <crutchy> it doesn't
[04:23:29] <crutchy> you have to remove the authority from your government
[04:23:36] <Gravis> crutchy: how does a smaller government prevent that?
[04:23:40] <crutchy> small government = small problems
[04:23:46] <crutchy> big government = big problems
[04:24:01] <Gravis> crutchy: how does a smaller government prevent that?
[04:24:01] <SirFinkus> so then Boeing buys larger government, and then passes exim
[04:24:08] <SirFinkus> or just buys the smaller government
[04:24:14] <crutchy> boeing can only buy that which is sold
[04:24:29] <Gravis> "everyone has a price"*
[04:24:35] <crutchy> if government doesn't have many laws, then the price goes up
[04:24:45] <crutchy> for each law
[04:24:56] <crutchy> rule of scarcity
[04:24:57] <SirFinkus> you state that like it's a truism
[04:25:02] <SirFinkus> but it isn't really
[04:25:20] <crutchy> supply and demand is pretty easy to argue
[04:25:35] <crutchy> you can try though
[04:26:23] <Gravis> SirFinkus: you are trying to convince a schizophrenic that the voices in his head aren't real.
[04:26:23] <crutchy> if you reduce the amount of something without changing the demand for it, the price goes up
[04:26:26] <SirFinkus> laws aren't a commodity, they don't cost anything to create
[04:26:45] <SirFinkus> it isn't like congress is going to run out of laws, they can pass as many as they'd like
[04:26:55] <crutchy> SirFinkus, no, but a smaller government is easier for its citizens to control
[04:27:09] <SirFinkus> easier for anybody else to control
[04:27:11] <SirFinkus> like boeing
[04:27:17] <Gravis> crutchy: how is it easier to control?
[04:27:37] <crutchy> boeing wouldn't receive subsidies that it does from a smaller government
[04:27:48] <Gravis> crutchy: why not?
[04:28:00] <crutchy> Gravis, kinda like how residents have more control over their local government than the federal government
[04:28:37] <SirFinkus> yes it would, because they'd buy the laws that would get it subsides (ie exim) from the smaller government
[04:28:48] <Gravis> crutchy: how do you know it's not a matter of proximity?
[04:28:55] <crutchy> then you're not really reducing government at all
[04:29:09] <crutchy> Gravis, proximity is a factor
[04:29:24] <crutchy> but i think you're getting lost in the weeds now
[04:29:39] <crutchy> i'm sure you get some idea of what i was getting at
[04:29:47] <Gravis> crutchy: no, you are lost in delusion
[04:29:50] <SirFinkus> it's an asymmetrical arrangement that allows those with more capital to dictate how people with less capital are governed
[04:30:08] <crutchy> SirFinkus, atm yes it does seem that way
[04:30:16] <SirFinkus> ignoring corporations, it could even just be a rich guy
[04:30:32] <Gravis> crutchy: at the moment? tell me when that moment is over.
[04:30:32] <crutchy> but you have a *huuuuuuuuge* federal government with countless laws that are cheap to buy
[04:30:32] <SirFinkus> laws will be bought without regulation
[04:30:58] <crutchy> regulations are laws
[04:31:02] <SirFinkus> if they're cheap, common citizens can buy them too
[04:31:09] <SirFinkus> they aren't cheap though
[04:31:18] <crutchy> no because those with more money gobble them up
[04:31:27] <crutchy> there's no limit to one per person
[04:31:49] <crutchy> regular people cant outbid big corps
[04:32:12] <crutchy> but compared to how expensive they would be if there were few laws, they are extremely cheap
[04:32:57] <crutchy> cheap is relative term
[04:33:05] <SirFinkus> which is the inherent problem that capitalism doesn't solve, one rich asshole can impose his will on everybody else. The wishes of the rich don't necessarily align with the best interests of society at large.
[04:33:17] <crutchy> capitalism can't solve that
[04:33:23] <crutchy> its not a problem with capitalism
[04:33:31] <Gravis> actually, it is
[04:33:33] <crutchy> capitalism !== government
[04:34:10] <Gravis> capitalism is the survival of the fitest
[04:34:15] <crutchy> you have to look at how the people who buy laws get rich... its not from capitalism
[04:34:49] <crutchy> it is possible to get rich from capitalism, but those that do don't need to buy laws
[04:34:53] <Gravis> and the fittest use the corruption of human nature
[04:35:21] <SirFinkus> it absolutely is from capitalism, laws sold to the highest bidder, what is more capitalistic?
[04:35:34] <crutchy> dude, that's not capitalism
[04:35:43] <Gravis> yeah it is!
[04:35:46] <Gravis> :D
[04:35:48] <crutchy> laws are not commodities
[04:35:49] <SirFinkus> people seizing every advantage they can to get the highest price from whatever service/good they provide
[04:36:22] <Gravis> SirFinkus: that is why i call it survival of the fittest
[04:36:55] <crutchy> i guess the transaction of selling/buying the law could be considered a trade, but you're definitely getting lost in the wweeds there
[04:37:14] <crutchy> the problem isn't trading. humans will always do that
[04:37:22] <crutchy> the problem is what is being traded
[04:37:43] <Gravis> so we need perfectly moral people in government
[04:37:48] <crutchy> impossible
[04:37:53] <Gravis> crutchy: exactly
[04:37:57] <crutchy> so?
[04:38:09] <Gravis> capitalism will always corrupt
[04:38:13] <crutchy> lol
[04:38:22] <crutchy> corruption is human nature
[04:38:28] <crutchy> you will never eliminate it
[04:38:32] <Gravis> only if it's an option
[04:38:40] <Gravis> take away that option and no corruption
[04:39:05] <crutchy> there will always be a bidder
[04:39:07] <crutchy> *always*
[04:39:14] <SirFinkus> laws don't fall under conventional economic theories, since they aren't a resource or a commodity. it's a winner take all thing
[04:39:17] <Gravis> crutchy: only if there is something to bid with
[04:39:32] <crutchy> oh gawd this is where you talk about getting rid of money right?
[04:39:38] <SirFinkus> on a practical level, governments can pass as many laws as they want
[04:39:40] <Gravis> :)
[04:39:58] <crutchy> gravis, dollar bills aren't real money
[04:40:04] <crutchy> they are merely an iou
[04:40:23] <Gravis> crutchy: you can fight the future... but you will always lose.
[04:40:41] <crutchy> i'm not fighting. capitalism will always exist
[04:40:44] <SirFinkus> it's not like people are buying up lawgold or whatever and spending them on laws, then losing the money
[04:40:48] <crutchy> it has for millenia
[04:40:51] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Creation of Jupiter Interior, a Step Towards Room Temperature Superconductivity - http://sylnt.us - don't-light-a-match
[04:41:12] <SirFinkus> they're spending money on laws that will get them more money, which will allow them to buy more laws which will give them more money
[04:41:20] <crutchy> SirFinkus, yup
[04:41:46] <crutchy> you can't get rid of the bidder, you can get rid of the seller, so you gotta get rid of the laws
[04:42:09] <crutchy> if you can't, then you have already lost
[04:42:12] <SirFinkus> you act like you can just reduce the number of laws that exist
[04:42:28] <SirFinkus> laws are just a piece of paper, you can have as many as you want
[04:42:30] <crutchy> that is actually what libertarians are fighting for
[04:42:54] <chromas> laws-- it's just that easy!
[04:42:54] <Bender> karma - laws: -3
[04:42:59] <crutchy> fewer laws that can be bought and sold
[04:43:09] <crutchy> smaller government
[04:43:39] <crutchy> its not about race or gender issues or religion.... a shitton of laws of all types need to go
[04:43:57] <SirFinkus> it's an unrealistic expectation, laws are not a scarce resource
[04:44:02] <Gravis> crutchy: so, how is it living in a world with only two colors?
[04:44:14] <crutchy> most of them aren't enforced anyway. they are just used to drive the wheel of corruption
[04:44:44] <crutchy> Gravis, says the guy who wants to kill off a large portion of humanity and have free robot slaves lol
[04:45:11] <SirFinkus> you don't want free robot slaves? you're the crazy one crutchy
[04:45:18] <crutchy> i would love one
[04:45:25] <SirFinkus> I've already reserved some sex slaves
[04:45:30] <SirFinkus> spalls is one of them
[04:45:34] <SirFinkus> just doesn't know it yet
[04:45:44] <SirFinkus> he failed the turing test
[04:45:48] <crutchy> lol. he's already removed his pants for you
[04:46:58] <Gravis> crutchy: i dont want to kill anyone and robots aren't people and thus cannot be slaves.
[04:47:36] <crutchy> you think pollution can be fixed with regulations. you're the one living in a dreamland dude
[04:47:42] <Gravis> crutchy: slavery implies having a will of one's own
[04:48:06] <SirFinkus> fixed? probably not. Reduced, certainly.
[04:48:07] <Gravis> crutchy: regulation cant fix anything, it can help prevent more damage.
[04:48:25] <crutchy> that's whereyou're dreaming
[04:48:34] <SirFinkus> ok, leaded gasoline
[04:48:51] <crutchy> ok, more cars
[04:48:55] <SirFinkus> virtually non-existent in the US
[04:49:04] <SirFinkus> due to regulations
[04:49:33] <Gravis> crutchy: more cars were coming, leaded gas would have just made everyone sicker
[04:49:48] <crutchy> SirFinkus, i think you're vastly overstating the beenefit
[04:50:02] <crutchy> (of regulation that is)
[04:50:03] <SirFinkus> of unleaded gasoline? you're shitting me right?
[04:50:28] <Gravis> SirFinkus: man, you got him dead to rights on that one.
[04:50:46] <crutchy> people demand cleaner cars anyway
[04:51:09] <crutchy> those that dont won't give a shit about regulation
[04:52:06] <SirFinkus> but they DO because you can't just go out and buy leaded gasoline in the US
[04:52:40] <crutchy> not really
[04:52:45] <crutchy> people buy whatever is cheap
[04:52:47] <crutchy> mostly
[04:53:04] <SirFinkus> which would be leaded gasoline without regulations
[04:53:10] <crutchy> maybe. maybe not
[04:53:35] <crutchy> the demand for cleaner cars probably drove it more than regulations
[04:53:55] <Gravis> LOL
[04:53:57] <crutchy> otherwise the corps would have just bought the laws, amirite?
[04:53:58] <SirFinkus> That's just plain delusional
[04:54:08] <Gravis> SirFinkus: told ya
[04:54:39] <crutchy> you're kinda contradicting yourself otherwise
[04:54:44] <crutchy> you say corps can just buy laws
[04:55:09] <SirFinkus> no, I said corps can just buy laws under a perfectly capitalistic system
[04:55:25] <SirFinkus> which the US, thankfully, is not
[04:55:35] <crutchy> so corps can't buy laws?
[04:55:57] <SirFinkus> they can in some cases, but not in this specific case
[04:56:03] <crutchy> oh rly?
[04:56:17] <crutchy> so the price of that law was too high?
[04:56:28] <crutchy> why couldn't it be bought?
[04:57:27] <SirFinkus> occasionally public outrage and facts win?
[04:57:38] <crutchy> lol now who's dellusional?
[04:57:52] <SirFinkus> you're basically saying that if 100% of laws can't be bought, than 95% of them being bought isn't a bad thing
[04:58:11] <crutchy> no i'm saying that *all* laws can be bought
[04:58:18] <crutchy> and that is a bad thing
[04:59:07] <SirFinkus> but you're implying the unrestrained capitalism solves this problem
[04:59:19] <SirFinkus> if not directly stating it
[04:59:23] <crutchy> no i've been saying specifically that it can't
[05:00:06] <crutchy> there is nothing that capitalism can do to prevent corruption in govenment
[05:01:05] <SirFinkus> then where the fuck do you disagree with me? I say generally capitalism works pretty well, but government should regulate it in areas where it would have an unreasonably bad effect on society as a whole.
[05:01:27] <crutchy> we disagree with the second bit
[05:02:00] <crutchy> government is incapable of regulating a free market without interfering with its freedom
[05:02:11] <SirFinkus> well, no shit
[05:02:15] <crutchy> :p
[05:02:21] <SirFinkus> I mean, that's kind of part of the deal
[05:02:27] <SirFinkus> but that can be a good thing
[05:02:32] <SirFinkus> see: leaded gasoline
[05:02:37] <crutchy> if you like corruption
[05:02:37] <SirFinkus> the EPA shut that shit down
[05:02:50] <SirFinkus> not the free market
[05:03:05] <crutchy> hmm. yeah we disagree on that too
[05:03:15] <crutchy> public outcry might have beeen a factor
[05:03:21] <crutchy> but regulation? not likely
[05:03:57] <crutchy> who do you think writes laws for the EPA to enforce?
[05:04:00] <SirFinkus> I mean, you can claim that, but it simply isn't true
[05:04:46] <crutchy> i guess that's where we differ in opinion
[05:06:21] <cmn32480> the EPA writes adn enforces many regulations, some based on lasws, some, not so much
[05:06:43] <crutchy> regulation is generally the means by which a law is enforced
[05:07:09] <crutchy> the 'nitty gritty'
[05:08:27] <crutchy> but the corruption comes in because lobbyists have direct influence over how they're written
[05:08:43] <crutchy> and we all know congress doesn't read anything
[05:08:49] <crutchy> so it gets passed
[05:09:37] <crutchy> regulations are more often than not written in a way that helps maintain monopoly positions in markets
[05:09:47] <crutchy> making it harder for the little guys
[05:10:34] <crutchy> i have experience with this in aviation
[05:10:51] <crutchy> boeing definitely gets its moneysworth out of its lobbyists
[05:16:45] <cmn32480> as do all defense contractors and any other large corporate entity that deals with the US gov't
[05:16:59] <SirFinkus> regulating the "natural monopoly" of airspace is one of the reasons that planes don't crash into each other
[05:17:06] <cmn32480> ah shit
[05:17:09] <SirFinkus> same with radio frequencies
[05:17:19] <cmn32480> I gotta be at the office in 8 hours for these guys from Comcast.
[05:17:27] <cmn32480> night everybody!
[05:17:34] <cmn32480> ~gnight everybody!
[05:17:37] * exec diabolically hurls a toilet bowl of beer at everybody!
[05:17:52] <SirFinkus> if people could just transmit whatever they wanted on whatever frequency, radio communication wouldn't work
[05:17:58] <SirFinkus> night cmn32480
[05:18:03] cmn32480 is now known as cmn32480|away
[05:21:24] -!- K_benzoate has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
[05:23:29] <crutchy> ~gnight cmn32480|away
[05:23:30] * exec dexterously cracks open a buzz saw of bewb for cmn32480|away
[05:23:50] <crutchy> SirFinkus, seems to work across national borders
[05:24:18] <crutchy> radio tends to be a fairly local thing too
[05:24:30] <crutchy> except for very low frequencies
[05:28:00] <SirFinkus> because nations recognize that the individual liberty to transmit on any frequency you want is trumped by how beneficial reliable radio communication is to society.
[05:30:51] <crutchy> they're free to make their own laws
[05:30:54] <crutchy> yup
[05:32:01] <crutchy> laws aren't inherently bad
[05:32:08] <crutchy> government is a necessity
[05:32:21] <crutchy> but... there is a point where it gets out of control
[05:34:20] <SirFinkus> so regulation is required in certain cases, such as natural monopolies, which is exactly my point
[05:34:28] <crutchy> hmm. not really
[05:35:04] <crutchy> the only laws that are really necessary is the enforcement of property rights and prosecution of fraud or violence
[05:35:20] <crutchy> there might be a few others maybe
[05:36:44] <crutchy> the constitution covers what the feds should be doing pretty well
[05:36:53] <crutchy> with is even less
[05:36:57] <crutchy> *which
[05:37:02] <crutchy> national defence
[05:37:14] <crutchy> protection of liberties
[05:37:18] <crutchy> (higher courts)
[05:39:36] <crutchy> the most important job of congress is to make the decision about whether the country should go to war, which is pretty much about the only thing it doesn;t do
[05:42:48] <SirFinkus> is burning/selling leaded gasoline enforcement of property rights or prevention of fraud or violence? That seems like a rather tortured interpretation of those standards
[05:43:04] <crutchy> true
[05:43:10] <crutchy> i don't know why you would think that
[05:44:55] <crutchy> burning gasoline would only be an infringement of property rights if it caused damage i guess
[05:45:08] <crutchy> maybe that's what you were getting at?
[05:45:12] <SirFinkus> burning leaded gasoline doesn't cause damage?
[05:45:19] <crutchy> it could yeah
[05:45:43] <crutchy> you could burn someone's house down with it for example
[05:45:44] <SirFinkus> It does
[05:46:10] <crutchy> in cars its a bit tricky because you have to argue how it causes damage
[05:46:16] <crutchy> that's where courts come into play
[05:46:54] <SirFinkus> I mean, do I have to argue how lead in the air/water causes damage? It's well established
[05:47:09] <crutchy> i guess you would if you were suing someone
[05:47:24] <crutchy> definitely
[05:47:57] <crutchy> after you provided evidence of the lead in the first place
[05:48:39] <crutchy> otherwise anyone could just go around throwing accusations at each other
[05:52:12] <crutchy> SirFinkus, i personally agree that lead causes problems, if that's what you were getting to
[05:52:20] <crutchy> you dont have to convince me of that :p
[05:53:01] <SirFinkus> but the reason we don't have leaded gasoline in the US now is because the federal government brought down the hammer of federal regulations[
[05:53:14] <crutchy> if you think so
[05:53:34] <crutchy> imho it was very carefully orchestrated
[05:54:04] <crutchy> maybe the big companies were trying to raise the cost of entry to market for their competitors
[05:54:06] <crutchy> who knows
[05:54:18] <crutchy> corruption is nasty
[05:54:20] <SirFinkus> but that's exactly what happened, the EPA said "leaded gasoline = not cool" and leaded gas was phased out
[05:54:44] <crutchy> but i think you're mistaken in thinking it was for some 'greater good'
[05:55:47] <crutchy> it was driven by business decisions
[05:57:28] <SirFinkus> industry was largely against it, once leaded gasoline was outlawed in the US and other 1st world countries, they continued producing it in 3rd world countries as long as they possibly could
[05:58:21] <crutchy> lol do you really believe that? i don't think you're that naiive
[05:58:29] <crutchy> look at warren buffet
[05:58:32] <crutchy> for example
[05:58:43] <crutchy> he keeps telling the media that rich people should pay more taxes
[05:58:48] <crutchy> do you really believe that?
[05:58:50] <SirFinkus> you're shitting me, it's a documented fact
[05:59:26] <crutchy> what companies say in public isn't always (and often isn't) what they think in private
[06:00:30] <crutchy> if a company is in a healthy position to be able to run at a larger loss as a result of increased 'regulation' they will if there is a side effect that it will adversely affect their competition to a greater extent
[06:00:49] <crutchy> its a common business practice
[06:01:13] <crutchy> not always due to regulation, but driving competition out of business
[06:02:03] <crutchy> esp if the larger company can inflence the wording of the regulation to adversely affect their competitors moreso than themselves (they may be able to word it so that nothing changes for them)
[06:02:12] <Gravis> oh wow, you people are still at it.
[06:02:21] <crutchy> heh. its fun
[06:02:29] <crutchy> and its too hot outside to do much else
[06:02:34] <Gravis> crutchy: na, you are just deluded.
[06:02:42] <crutchy> Gravis, of course
[06:02:55] <Gravis> like talking to a brick wall
[06:03:03] <SirFinkus> that's irrelevant if they aren't pushing for these same regulations in every country they are operating. Regulations do get abused, but in the case of leaded gasoline you haven't demonstrated that this was due to industry influence. You're just speculating.
[06:03:34] <Gravis> you know there is still leaded gasoline in countries that haven't outlawed it
[06:03:43] <crutchy> SirFinkus, true, but to assume that big oil was allowing government to regulate them for the greater good? that's delusional
[06:04:05] <SirFinkus> not really if the federal government has sufficient power
[06:04:25] <crutchy> it does
[06:04:26] <Gravis> crutchy: the ability to throw people in jail gives you that ability
[06:04:36] <crutchy> the federal government has huge power
[06:04:43] <crutchy> and they sell it freely
[06:04:49] <SirFinkus> in some areas
[06:04:54] <crutchy> in all areas
[06:05:47] <crutchy> if you really think that big oil didn't allow the regulation of lead, then i can't do anything for you :p
[06:05:49] <Gravis> crutchy: so... which medications are you refusing?
[06:06:02] <crutchy> Gravis, whatever you're smoking
[06:06:24] <SirFinkus> "allow" is the wrong word, they fought it every step of the way
[06:06:25] <Gravis> i don't smoke, that's for idiots
[06:06:38] <crutchy> SirFinkus, then we'll have to agree to disagree
[06:06:53] <Gravis> crutchy: do you not know about the history of leaded/unleaded gasoline?
[06:07:01] <crutchy> Gravis, i definitely don't want your meds. it might turn me into an ignorant fool
[06:07:06] <SirFinkus> just like the tobacco industry bought studies that claimed that smoking was a-okay
[06:07:36] <SirFinkus> agree to disagree is a cop out, I don't agree to disagree with reality
[06:07:41] <crutchy> Gravis, why don't you 'educate' me so i can poke holes in your argument :p
[06:08:10] <crutchy> SirFinkus, the tobacco industry is still rolling in money will few competitors. what's your point?
[06:10:22] <SirFinkus> the tobacco industry fought regulation every step of the way, just like the oil and chemical companies fought regulation of leaded gasoline.
[06:11:23] <crutchy> lol you duffer
[06:11:39] <Gravis> crutchy: sure: https://www.youtube.com
[06:11:44] <NetCraft> ^ 03Lead for Life - the history of leaded gasoline - an excerpt - YouTube
[06:11:57] <crutchy> SirFinkus, the tobacco companies write tobacco regulations :p
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[06:12:07] <crutchy> same as for oil
[06:12:14] <SirFinkus> I'm no cattle rustler
[06:12:17] -!- Ethanol-fueled [Ethanol-fueled!~Ethanol-f@ka52-830-964-802.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #Soylent
[06:12:20] -!- aqu4 [aqu4!~aqu4bot@universe2.us/ircbot/aqu4] has joined #Soylent
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[06:12:24] <crutchy> aye focker!
[06:12:27] <SirFinkus> don't use your Australian words
[06:12:31] <crutchy> :D
[06:12:37] <Ethanol-fueled> crutch-dawg, Fink
[06:12:57] <SirFinkus> lo Ethanol-fueled
[06:12:58] <crutchy> time to get dinner
[06:13:23] <SirFinkus> salmonella free due to government regulation
[06:13:53] <Ethanol-fueled> Fink, ask Chipotle about the effectiveness of government regulation.
[06:14:23] <SirFinkus> they got their shit slapped for making people sick
[06:14:34] <SirFinkus> chipotle is shit anyway, taco del mar is better
[06:14:45] <Ethanol-fueled> chipotle is shit. Overpriced shit.
[06:14:49] <Ethanol-fueled> Not even a real burrito.
[06:15:20] <SirFinkus> they only thing chipotle has going is their cilantro lime rice, which I can make just as well
[06:15:35] <Gravis> only a fool eats fast food after learning of the ills it causes
[06:15:39] <Ethanol-fueled> Alberto's or any *berto's is better than Chipotle...those cooks are scratching their balls and not washing their hands but they don't get anybody sick enough to be slammed shut like a book and shitting like a mink.
[06:18:03] <crutchy> regulations often come across as having good intentions
[06:18:12] <SirFinkus> are mink famous for their shitting?
[06:18:55] <SirFinkus> Ethanol-fueled, your story about dirty dave is hilarious because dirty dave's is an institution in my town
[06:19:25] <Ethanol-fueled> Huh. Saw your comment.
[06:19:38] <SirFinkus> the "gay 90's special" is the best pizza I've had
[06:19:58] <SirFinkus> in my admittedly limited pizza tasting experience
[06:20:06] <Ethanol-fueled> Must be an instance of convergent evolution. SO what does the "gay '90s special have on it?"
[06:20:28] <Ethanol-fueled> And CASHEWS? No fucking way. That's worse than people who request jalapenos or pineapple on their pizza.
[06:20:31] <SirFinkus> Cashews, pepperoni, sausage, onion
[06:20:41] <SirFinkus> it works, trust me
[06:20:44] <SirFinkus> I thought the same thing
[06:22:43] <Ethanol-fueled> cashews are pretty meaty and umami. But the crunch, man.
[06:23:32] <SirFinkus> they don't really affect the flavor of the pizza, but they add an awesome texture
[06:23:55] <SirFinkus> not really a crunch since they soak the grease up from the pizza
[06:24:32] <SirFinkus> they absorb all the flavor of the other ingredients though
[06:25:02] <Ethanol-fueled> Dirty Dave was probably high as a motherfucker when he thought of that.
[06:25:26] <Ethanol-fueled> "and banana peels too! Load that shit up!"
[06:25:36] <SirFinkus> I'm just glad he found a productive outlet for his energy
[06:26:01] <Ethanol-fueled> The Dirty Dave journal is 100% true story.
[06:26:10] <SirFinkus> they should make a low budget inspirational movie or something about it
[06:28:18] <Ethanol-fueled> Yeech...never understood that BBQ chicken pizza trend.
[06:28:24] <Ethanol-fueled> Lookin' at the menu now.
[06:28:53] <SirFinkus> I don't get it either
[06:28:58] <SirFinkus> I mean, it's all right
[06:29:23] <SirFinkus> but I'd rather have real pizza or real bbq chicken
[06:31:22] * Ethanol-fueled is a sardine guy
[06:31:24] <SirFinkus> their sandwiches are good, but there are better sandwich places around
[06:31:45] <SirFinkus> made by proper WOPs
[06:31:51] <Ethanol-fueled> Or Jews.
[06:32:00] <Ethanol-fueled> Jewish_delis++
[06:32:00] <Bender> karma - jewish_delis: 1
[06:32:08] <SirFinkus> don't have any good jewish places around here
[06:32:59] <SirFinkus> they know their meats though, I wish we did
[06:33:24] <Ethanol-fueled> Yeah, the meat receives more love than their children do
[06:34:08] <Ethanol-fueled> Fortunately we have a few good ones here.
[06:34:12] <SirFinkus> I had a jewish friend back in grade school, I went over to his house all the time and his mom would make the most delicious food
[06:34:24] <SirFinkus> restaurant quality
[06:34:34] <SirFinkus> all from scratch
[06:34:48] <SirFinkus> it was fantastic
[06:35:00] <Ethanol-fueled> Yup. The lyrics to Frank Zappa's "Jewish Princess" has a passage that goes, "don't know shit about cooking / and is arrogrant-looking"
[06:35:13] <Ethanol-fueled> The first part is wrong.
[06:35:41] <Ethanol-fueled> lox++
[06:35:41] <Bender> karma - lox: 1
[06:35:42] <SirFinkus> and he had n64
[06:35:50] <SirFinkus> probably more important at that age
[06:36:21] <Ethanol-fueled> And fresh boiled bagels.
[06:37:18] <SirFinkus> never had bagels, I think that's more of a westernized thing
[06:37:43] <SirFinkus> they were directly out of country
[06:38:03] <SirFinkus> my friend had lived in Israel all his life, idk about the parents
[06:38:33] <SirFinkus> Dad worked for Intel and got transferred over to the states
[06:38:52] <Ethanol-fueled> Makes sense, they have a fab there.
[06:39:27] <Ethanol-fueled> If not a fab a significant presence.
[06:39:43] <SirFinkus> they have on around here too, but it's more of a research one I think
[06:39:54] <SirFinkus> toured it once, saw their network hardware
[06:40:34] <Ethanol-fueled> Was it impressive? Fiber interconnects all-around?
[06:41:33] <SirFinkus> It was a few years ago, iirc, they had two dedicated oc-3 lines
[06:41:53] <Ethanol-fueled> OC-3 is nothing by today's standards.
[06:42:03] <SirFinkus> it was a while ago
[06:42:23] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - The Science Myths That Will Not Die - http://sylnt.us - even-smart-people-can-perpetuate-stupid
[06:42:26] <SirFinkus> almost a decade
[06:43:00] <Ethanol-fueled> OC-3 was shit-tier when I was tuning optical transceivers for a living in L.A. back in 2005
[06:43:21] * SirFinkus shrugs
[06:44:05] <SirFinkus> that's what I remember, they gave us all a spare wireless b pcmia cards as parting gifts
[06:44:17] <Ethanol-fueled> Pretty phat.
[06:45:35] <SirFinkus> it was neat, got to see one of the top 500 supercomputers, I think it was #12 at the time
[06:45:44] <Ethanol-fueled> Nice.
[06:46:45] <SirFinkus> and all their SUPER SECRIT network infrastructure
[06:47:02] <Ethanol-fueled> microcode backdoors, probably.
[06:47:14] <Ethanol-fueled> undocumented opcodes etc.
[06:48:57] <SirFinkus> their network admin told us about how he caught someone hosting kiddie porn on his company workstation, that was pretty funny
[06:49:50] <Ethanol-fueled> That same thing happened at my last job before I was hired. Feds came in, slipped the guy in cuffs and carted out his boxes, etc.
[06:50:22] <Ethanol-fueled> Guy apparantly had been busted for the same thing before but was hired because the company didn't do background checks then.
[06:50:35] <SirFinkus> lol
[06:51:21] <SirFinkus> I thought all those guys had probation rules about unsupervised internet access or something
[06:51:40] <Ethanol-fueled> Fink, some companies lock their shit down, some don't.
[06:51:49] <SirFinkus> I remember mitnick wasn't able to use computers for years
[06:52:15] <Ethanol-fueled> It doesn't matter how big, popular, or critical the corporation is, how much you can get away with depends on the culture.
[06:52:27] <SirFinkus> I mean as a federal thing, I'm surprised his PO let him work at that job
[06:52:32] <SirFinkus> then again, I don't know shit
[06:52:45] <SirFinkus> just speculating
[06:53:28] <Ethanol-fueled> People who get busted get turned. There is also a perverse appreciation which occasionally occurs directed from the powers-that-be to the perp.
[06:54:03] <Ethanol-fueled> As a more micro example, many cops and prison guards appreciate good thuggery, and are often sexually attracted to it.
[06:55:49] <Ethanol-fueled> They are so bored with their constant control that dissent presents a welcome diversion.
[06:56:32] <SirFinkus> I'd imagine it attracts a specific kind of person, I can't think of a more miserable place to work
[06:57:36] <Ethanol-fueled> The kinds of people who choose to work there do so because it pays well, but they are blindsided by how what they encounter affects them.
[06:57:46] <SirFinkus> I mean, getting shot at by ISIS is one thing, but at least you aren't getting shit thrown at you
[06:58:05] <Ethanol-fueled> They develop a gallows humor. Medical professionals develop a gallows humor, as do prison guards.
[06:58:35] <Ethanol-fueled> Prison guards call tazing an inmate "making them do the 'funky chicken'"
[06:58:36] <SirFinkus> politicians too
[06:58:51] <Ethanol-fueled> a "dance" in which the inmate being tazed often soiles themself.
[06:59:32] <Ethanol-fueled> politicians are the cream of the crap. The sociopaths who have managed to either not fucked up royally or had their connections clean up their messes.
[06:59:41] <Ethanol-fueled> And now they're making the laws that govern YOU.
[06:59:54] <SirFinkus> I might be projecting my humanity on them
[07:00:01] <SirFinkus> giving them too much credit
[07:00:13] <Ethanol-fueled> Dirty Dave was brilliant. He pegged every intelligence test administered. But that came at a price.
[07:00:20] <crutchy> Ethanol-fueled, nah politicians have to pass to bills to find out what's in them :p
[07:00:32] <Ethanol-fueled> true 'dat crutch-dawg.
[07:01:21] <Ethanol-fueled> Just imagine if Dirty Dave had been the same except that he was so lucky that nobody knew publicly about who he was. Magnify that by a thousand, and you have your average politician.
[07:01:21] <crutchy> fuck me this a fat arse souvlaki
[07:01:42] <SirFinkus> oh fuck, greek meat?
[07:01:46] <SirFinkus> delicious
[07:01:54] <SirFinkus> they're almost as good as the jews
[07:01:57] <crutchy> lamb
[07:02:03] <Ethanol-fueled> greeks++
[07:02:03] <Bender> karma - greeks: 1
[07:02:19] <SirFinkus> apparently lamb isn't all that big in greece
[07:02:23] <Ethanol-fueled> They gave us homosexual anal sex, philosophy, mythology, and the Gyro.
[07:02:28] <SirFinkus> I mainly like the spices they use
[07:02:54] <SirFinkus> I have a turkish friend, but his meat just isn't the same
[07:03:06] <crutchy> !grab SirFinkus
[07:03:06] <Bender> Added quote 631
[07:03:12] <crutchy> :D
[07:04:36] <SirFinkus> I've had Döner kebab a few times, but it's never been as good as the Greek shit
[07:05:00] <Ethanol-fueled> Fuck Turk shit.
[07:05:21] <crutchy> this ones nuthin special
[07:05:36] <Ethanol-fueled> IF you want an explosion in your mouth you go Morroccan, baby!
[07:05:48] <SirFinkus> don't think I've had that
[07:05:56] <Ethanol-fueled> IF you can get it, do it.
[07:06:19] <SirFinkus> I've had good Indian food that made an explosion in my abnormally long asshole though
[07:06:30] <SirFinkus> Indian food is the best ethnic food imo
[07:06:33] <Ethanol-fueled> Indian is a lot like Morroccan.
[07:06:48] <Ethanol-fueled> heavy use of spices, etc.
[07:07:18] <SirFinkus> I had the opportunity to try ethiopian food once, which would have been interesting
[07:07:31] <SirFinkus> but my cunt of a grandma vetoed and we went to mazatlan instead
[07:07:33] <crutchy> grass?
[07:07:37] <crutchy> lol
[07:07:41] <Ethanol-fueled> hahahahah
[07:07:51] <crutchy> #smake crutchy
[07:07:51] * MrPlow smakes crutchy upside the head
[07:07:56] <SirFinkus> still resentful about that
[07:08:04] <Ethanol-fueled> Eithiopian is good. The typical themes are there - exotic spices, a food wrapper
[07:08:15] <SirFinkus> it probably would have been shit, but I would have at least been able to say I tried it
[07:08:24] <Ethanol-fueled> eithiopian food is not shit.
[07:08:55] <Ethanol-fueled> It rivals even Mexican when you order dishes that don't involve hacked up bits of bone and sinew.
[07:08:58] <SirFinkus> probably would have been better than generic mexican food
[07:09:18] <SirFinkus> which is a low bar
[07:09:29] <crutchy> ethiopians could probably make mud into a decent meal
[07:09:47] <SirFinkus> I can make mexican food 10x better than what you'd get at a mexican restaurant
[07:09:48] <Ethanol-fueled> Fuck no, they have Injera.
[07:10:14] <SirFinkus> ethiopians don't have many meals, so the ones they do have they have to make really good
[07:10:14] <Ethanol-fueled> it's a bread-like food wrapper unlike anything you've experienced. It's like a literal sponge.
[07:11:29] <Ethanol-fueled> When eating Eithiopian you can't go wrong with the zilzil tibs or any vegetarian plate.
[07:11:40] * crutchy read that as literal spooge
[07:11:45] <Ethanol-fueled> Everything else is a gamble unless they have pictures in the menu.
[07:12:23] <Ethanol-fueled> It's awesome, Crutchy. And Eithiopoids are hot Africans too.
[07:12:32] <SirFinkus> the meal would have been with my uncle too, who actually lived there for a few months
[07:12:37] <SirFinkus> as a bonus
[07:12:41] <SirFinkus> but nope, veto
[07:12:48] <Ethanol-fueled> They are skinny but the women have slightly thick butts and beautiful wild hair.
[07:12:49] * SirFinkus wishes the bladder cancer took her
[07:13:06] <Ethanol-fueled> !grab SirFinkus
[07:13:06] <Bender> Added quote 632
[07:13:10] * crutchy wonders if its possible to eat a souv without making a shitload of mess
[07:13:18] <Ethanol-fueled> Terrible, but true.
[07:13:30] <SirFinkus> the old bag is pissing in an old bag now
[07:13:32] <Ethanol-fueled> Old-skool families are a bitch like that.
[07:14:03] <SirFinkus> through a catheter
[07:14:28] <Ethanol-fueled> If they weren't leaving me anything I would ask them, "where the fuck was all this 'family togetherness' when I was living out of my car and eating out of trash cans?"
[07:15:34] <SirFinkus> every other person in my family is awesome
[07:15:47] <Ethanol-fueled> same here, Fink. Except a few.
[07:15:52] <crutchy> Ethanol-fueled, are ethiopoids the ones that blow into cows arses?
[07:16:00] <SirFinkus> can carry on conversations with all of them
[07:16:06] <SirFinkus> ONE exception, grandma]
[07:16:30] <Ethanol-fueled> crutchy, I don't know. But Mexicans fuck chickens, snort meth, and cheat on their wives with men -- and they make the best goddamn food on the planet.
[07:16:42] <crutchy> lol
[07:17:01] <SirFinkus> can make all of them laugh, all of them can make me laugh (except the women, but that's expected)
[07:17:05] <crutchy> maybe ethiopia has the best milk
[07:18:20] <crutchy> RimCow Dairy
[07:18:47] <Ethanol-fueled> They can bathe in cow-piss all they want. But if they can make me a fat plate (and Eithiopian portions are always big) of samplers or zilzil tibs let them do it.
[07:19:01] <crutchy> cool
[07:19:34] <crutchy> not sure if we have any/many african foods or restaurants around here :/
[07:20:07] <crutchy> theres a bit of asian prolly cos of hitachi etc
[07:20:09] <Ethanol-fueled> The hipsters are taking over and gentrifying my hood. You see restaurants that serve sea-bass with crinkled something for $40 bucks and the whole meal is the size of an ***** ***'s dick.
[07:20:36] <crutchy> bugger
[07:20:39] <Ethanol-fueled> Eithiopians won't *** you like that. You could slip them seven bucks and your plate is gonna be heavy as fuck.
[07:22:01] <Ethanol-fueled> (funny thing is, due to bizzare historical reasons, there are a lot of Eithiopian ****
[07:22:20] <Ethanol-fueled> If you don't believe me look up Bob Marley and Rastafari
[07:22:39] <crutchy> you keep saying hunter2
[07:23:37] <crutchy> <Ethanol-fueled> The hipsters are taking over and gentrifying my hood. You see restaurants that serve sea-bass with crinkled something for $40 bucks and the whole meal is the size of an hunter2 hunter2's dick.
[07:23:51] <crutchy> :D
[07:23:59] <crutchy> #smake crutchy
[07:23:59] * MrPlow smakes crutchy upside the head
[07:30:24] <Ethanol-fueled> Man, I'm watching a boss fight remake. Ugly as fuck.
[07:31:13] <Ethanol-fueled> They redid an RPG for Steam and have all this ugly shit popping up in the visual field.
[07:31:23] <SirFinkus> which rpg?
[07:31:31] <Ethanol-fueled> FF4 (2 in US)
[07:31:50] <Ethanol-fueled> When all elementals are fought in the giant of Bab-il
[07:31:58] <SirFinkus> oh yeah, I think I saw that
[07:32:15] <SirFinkus> or screenshots of it
[07:32:35] <SirFinkus> looked like some of the pixel smoothing options in epsxe or something
[07:32:36] <Ethanol-fueled> It's like they hired a C# programmer to port and refactor the code.
[07:33:14] <Ethanol-fueled> The old Final Fantasies had a top area, to show action, and a bottom area to show menus and select options and all that shit.
[07:33:40] <SirFinkus> never go into final fantasy
[07:33:52] <Ethanol-fueled> in the crap versions they have transparent "buttons" in a crude layout format
[07:34:36] <Ethanol-fueled> like a ghetto grid layout with the menu options populating the "action" part of the screen.
[07:34:40] <SirFinkus> I tried after the fact with 10 (someone claimed it was the best "modern" FF) and I got tired of watching a shitty movie
[07:35:04] <Ethanol-fueled> FF8 was the last great FF.
[07:35:40] <crutchy> that one with the ghost thingys was good
[07:35:47] <Ethanol-fueled> and after that, FF7:DoC was the last great Final Fantasy-branded game.
[07:36:36] <crutchy> oh yeah they called elementals?
[07:36:46] <crutchy> been a while
[07:37:56] <Ethanol-fueled> http://www.youtube.com
[07:38:04] <NetCraft> ^ 03Final Fantasy IV Playthrough #075, Giant of Babil (2/3), Boss: Elements - YouTube ( https://www.youtube.com )
[07:39:32] <Ethanol-fueled> "now allow me to restore you hit points and magic points"
[07:39:35] <Ethanol-fueled> Thanks bro.
[07:44:19] <SirFinkus> I'm off to bed, night folks
[07:44:28] <Ethanol-fueled> Lata
[07:46:37] <crutchy> gnight
[07:49:41] <Ethanol-fueled> t
[07:56:03] <Gravis> Ethanol-fueled: glad to read that your "hood" is being improved. the less ignorant fucks like you that exist, the better.
[07:57:34] <Gravis> Ethanol-fueled: i mean, who knows, maybe they will be a good influence and you might actually learn something real.
[08:05:29] <Ethanol-fueled> Gravis: unlikely. Those fucks will receive a rude awakening.
[08:06:03] <Ethanol-fueled> Useful idiots are good to the greedy, but they diminish quality of life for everybody else.
[08:07:02] <Ethanol-fueled> We shall see.
[08:07:47] <Ethanol-fueled> The older among us don't buy it either.
[08:08:39] <Ethanol-fueled> We shall lie in wait. Hahahahha.
[08:10:11] <Ethanol-fueled> https://www.youtube.com
[08:10:17] <NetCraft> ^ 034 Runner - Cain's Blood - YouTube
[08:12:04] <crutchy> Gravis just hasn't realized that he's speaking about himself :p
[08:12:28] <Ethanol-fueled> We ALL speak from the speakthroat.
[08:13:33] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Deep-Spying: Spying Using Smartwatch and Deep Learning - http://sylnt.us - they-wanna-know-my-step-count?
[08:16:17] <crutchy> Ethanol-fueled, if it were up to ol' Gravis you and me would be killed and replaced with robots that appear out of thin air
[08:16:43] <Ethanol-fueled> Meh, the prudent thing would be for that to happen.
[08:17:16] <crutchy> the killing, or the magic robots?
[08:17:27] <Ethanol-fueled> We'd disappear into thin-air, and more politically-correct figured would manifest themselves.
[08:17:37] <crutchy> lol
[08:17:50] <Ethanol-fueled> You and I would be, in real life, pushed into camps.
[08:17:58] <crutchy> social justice league unite!
[08:18:22] <crutchy> its like the power rangers but even more faggety
[08:18:34] <Ethanol-fueled> Yuck. Pink Flamingos, Troma Movies, Minoriteam, Drawn Together all UNITE.
[08:27:05] <chromas> ~define troma
[08:27:06] <exec> troma: unable to find definition
[08:29:27] <Ethanol-fueled> http://www.troma.com
[08:29:35] <NetCraft> ^ 03Troma | 40 Years of Disrupting Media
[08:44:12] -!- Ethanol-fueled has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[08:48:41] * crutchy wonders why exec's define command no worka
[08:49:38] <crutchy> x's define works :/
[08:50:11] <Gravis> crutchy: just because you can't comprehend how a technology works, doesn't make it magic
[08:50:56] <crutchy> at least i can appreciate what is required to bring technology into existence
[08:50:58] <Gravis> crutchy: unless you want to claim self driving cars are magic too
[08:51:18] <crutchy> technology doesn't magically appear outta thin air :p
[08:51:52] <crutchy> ~help ~define
[08:51:53] <exec> 06looks up definition of term from a list of sources (such as urbandictionary)
[08:51:57] <Gravis> nobody claimed it did
[08:52:36] <crutchy> if i could be bothered i'd dredge up some old quotes of yours
[08:53:27] <Gravis> it doesn't matter. you are a lost cause.
[08:53:41] <Gravis> you'll never see beyond your own limitations
[08:54:48] <crutchy> heh
[08:54:56] <crutchy> i have a good grasp of reality
[08:55:04] <crutchy> not that i expect you to agree
[08:55:48] <crutchy> i don't pretend that humanity is capable of anything better than the 7 sins
[08:56:09] <crutchy> trying to change that is futile
[08:56:53] <crutchy> socialism might work in fairyland, but here on earth it causes misery
[08:57:41] <crutchy> ~define-count
[08:57:42] <exec> custom definition count: 6
[08:58:35] <crutchy> ~define-sources
[08:58:35] <exec> www.urbandictionary.com => urbandictionary|80|/define.php?term=%%term%%|%%term%%|term=|1|<div class='meaning'>|</div>||
[08:58:36] <exec> en.wikipedia.org => wikipedia|80|/wiki/%%term%%|%%term%%|wiki/|2|<p>|</p>|Other reasons this message may be displayed:|_
[09:02:01] <Gravis> funny, i'm have yet to advocate socialism.
[09:03:25] <Gravis> crutchy: between the two of us, you are the socialist.
[09:05:02] <chromas> $socialist exec
[09:05:09] <chromas> more bots need a socialist command
[09:06:18] <crutchy> Gravis, you are an interesting person, who is wrong about a lot of things :)
[09:06:34] <crutchy> chromas, definitely. then we can have bot warz :D
[09:07:06] <Gravis> crutchy: you bore me but your persistant delusions.
[09:07:31] <crutchy> my 'delusions' have thus far served me well
[09:07:39] <crutchy> i wish you well in yours
[09:08:36] <crutchy> chromas, exec is hard to debug without terminal output
[09:08:40] <Gravis> right... see a shrink, they'll get you the proper medications.
[09:08:56] <crutchy> nah. i dont need it
[09:08:59] <crutchy> but thanks
[09:09:10] <chromas> shrinkage, eh
[09:09:25] <crutchy> at least it has cooled down
[09:09:35] <chromas> ~curl yahoo.com
[09:09:45] <chromas> wasn't there a curl command?
[09:09:50] <chromas> is curl installed there?
[09:09:50] <crutchy> ~wget
[09:09:51] <exec> syntax: ~wget url delim 1 <> delim 2
[09:10:17] <crutchy> ~wget https://www.google.com <title> <> </title>
[09:10:18] <exec> 07Google
[09:10:18] <chromas> is that what's used to fetch the diction'ry pages?
[09:10:32] <crutchy> sorta. uses the same lib
[09:10:59] <crutchy> .flip
[09:11:08] <crutchy> dunno why macros aren't working either
[09:11:25] <chromas> .soyl socialist
[09:11:40] <crutchy> .macro .flip * privmsg (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
[09:11:41] <exec> 02 *** macro with trigger ".flip" and PRIVMSG command template "(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻" saved
[09:11:45] <crutchy> .flip
[09:11:46] <exec> (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
[09:11:48] <crutchy> ooh
[09:11:55] <chromas> too bad you didn't sneak in a secret command to give you ssh access to the server ;)
[09:11:59] <crutchy> lol
[09:14:20] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Slightly More Earth-Like Exoplanet Found Slightly Closer to Earth - http://sylnt.us - how-soon-could-we-get-there?
[09:14:37] <crutchy> ~nyse aapl
[09:14:37] <exec> sh: 1: curl: not found
[09:14:44] <crutchy> hmm no curl
[09:44:43] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Implanted "Gene Circuit" Counters Inflammation in Mice - http://sylnt.us - that's-swell
[11:27:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++
[11:27:38] <Bender> karma - coffee: 1989
[11:35:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> #socialist crutchy
[11:35:05] <MrPlow> crutchy, you're a socialist!
[11:46:16] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Mars Rover Finds Changing Rocks, Surprising Scientists - http://sylnt.us - he's-curious
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[12:57:44] cmn32480|away is now known as cmn32480
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[13:07:01] -!- exec has quit [Quit: dafuq]
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[13:11:23] -!- exec has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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[13:17:26] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Deal Will Allow Up to 110 U.S. Flights to Cuba Daily - http://sylnt.us - short-flight
[13:25:49] Bytram|away is now known as Bytram
[13:31:54] <Bytram> coffee++
[13:31:54] <Bender> karma - coffee: 1990
[13:31:57] <cmn32480> coffee++
[13:31:57] <Bender> karma - coffee: 1991
[13:31:59] <Bytram> !uid
[13:31:59] <Bender> The current maximum UID is 5998, owned by aterfuturo
[13:32:13] <cmn32480> so close..... yet so slowly making progress
[13:32:21] <Bytram> yep!
[14:48:02] Bytram is now known as Bytram|away
[14:48:36] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - How A Shift To LED Lighting Is Saving Sports Teams Millions Of Dollars - http://sylnt.us - they-should-lower-ticket-prices
[15:18:59] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - SpaceX Launch Live Coverage - December 20, 2015, @ 2005 Eastern (12/21 - 0105 UTC) - http://sylnt.us - this-IS-rocket-science
[15:50:46] <cmn32480> I hate comcast
[15:50:58] <cmn32480> supposed to have been here between 8 and 10.
[15:51:21] <cmn32480> now nearly 11, and when I call in there is no ETA , but the tech will call inside of 30 minutes???
[15:51:31] <cmn32480> no wonder people hate them
[16:19:45] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Netflix Creates DIY Smart Socks That Pause Your Show When You Fall Asleep - http://sylnt.us - fancy-footware
[16:58:13] <cmn32480> I feel like I am calling the internet helpdesk
[16:58:52] <cmn32480> https://www.youtube.com
[16:58:52] <NetCraft> ^ 03Welcome To The Internet Helpdesk - Official Version - YouTube
[17:20:31] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - SpaceX Launch Live Coverage - December 20, 2015, 8:05 PM Eastern Time (12/21 - 0105 UTC) - http://sylnt.us - this-IS-rocket-science
[17:50:55] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Why Mars Should Be Independent from Earth - http://sylnt.us - of-you-planet-that-way-it-might-work
[18:18:05] <takyon> #KillAllMartians
[19:23:09] -!- JamesNZ [JamesNZ!~JamesNZ@60.234.vml.gj] has joined #Soylent
[19:48:17] -!- JamesNZ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[19:52:28] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Stepping into the World of NAS - http://sylnt.us - protecting-your-data
[20:39:35] <AndyTheAbsurd> sounds NASty.
[21:23:38] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Cox/BMG Copyright Case: $17 Million Verdict for Violating Safe Harbor - http://sylnt.us - bad-law-is-still-law
[21:36:38] <alexbst> oooh.
[21:41:24] <AndyTheAbsurd> News monkeys! Elon Musk says the tonight's SpaceX launch is getting moved to tomorrow night. Might want to update the story if you haven't already.
[21:54:00] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - SpaceX Launch Live Coverage - Delayed 24 Hours - http://sylnt.us - this-IS-rocket-science
[21:56:58] <takyon> yeah i did
[21:56:59] <takyon> I DID
[21:57:02] <takyon> THERES THE PROOF
[21:57:13] <takyon> YOU GOT DAT AndyTheAbsurd
[22:03:24] -!- SirFinkus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
[22:03:27] <crutchy> coffee++
[22:03:27] <Bender> karma - coffee: 1992
[22:06:21] -!- SirFinkus [SirFinkus!~SirFinkus@q-37-359-375-883.hsd6.wa.comcast.net] has joined #Soylent
[22:06:51] <crutchy> yay no hot weather today :)
[22:06:54] <crutchy> ~weather
[22:06:55] <exec> 12Traralgon VIC - currently 19°C, cloudy, wind SW at 31 km/h, humidity 59% - Monday mostly cloudy (10°C:22°C), Tuesday mostly sunny (13°C:26°C), Wednesday partly cloudy (14°C:28°C), Thursday sunny (16°C:33°C)
[22:07:02] <crutchy> :DDD
[22:11:32] <crutchy> ~eval uname -a
[22:11:40] <crutchy> heh
[22:54:47] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Bone Suggests 'Red Deer Cave People' a Mysterious Species of Human - http://sylnt.us - species-record-expands-again
[23:51:01] <crutchy> <crutchy> where can i find all these juicy sjw arguments?
[23:51:01] <crutchy> <ciri> somewhere out on the WEB i guess crutchy
[23:51:01] <crutchy> <crutchy> damn you ciri for being so smrt