#Soylent | Logs for 2014-11-10

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[00:03:44] <paulej72> 31 to 17
[00:04:01] <paulej72> eli sucks
[00:04:15] <ar> hi
[00:04:16] <ciri> hey whats up ar
[00:04:22] <ar> coffee--
[00:04:22] <Bender> karma - coffee: 906
[00:04:24] <paulej72> the sky
[00:04:26] <ar> tea++
[00:04:26] <Bender> karma - tea: 226
[00:06:47] <paulej72> seahawks at the 3
[00:07:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, was just watchin that. giants gettin a giant one right up the ass.
[00:07:13] <San-Diego-Super-Chargers> pauley probably has a TV, and cable service.
[00:07:25] <paulej72> touchdown
[00:07:29] <San-Diego-Super-Chargers> I need to find a stream.
[00:07:43] <San-Diego-Super-Chargers> or walk to the local negro-bar.
[00:08:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> i have dish but aside from news i pirate all my tv
[00:08:35] <paulej72> yes it is the local game ny area and philly ( i get both stations)
[00:08:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> on account of pirates don't tell me how i can and can't watch what i want when i want
[00:09:26] <paulej72> dish sucks for internet access
[00:09:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> prolly, at&t has its own flavor of suck too though.
[00:10:40] <paulej72> my house in pa is about .3 mi from the end of the cable line
[00:12:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> tell em you'll get a shovel n dig the hole
[00:13:25] <paulej72> plus my service is burried from the pole to the house. if i did get the cable extended inwould have to run a new trench to the pole
[00:14:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> seriously, a ditch witch costs very little to rent for a day. you could have them a trench dug easy on a saturday off.
[00:14:37] <paulej72> it is all pole hung in my area, and there is a right a way for the powerband telephone
[00:14:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> bleh
[00:15:11] <paulej72> hard clay and rock is not fun to trench
[00:15:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> oklahoma, land of red clay just below the topsoil.
[00:16:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> your pain, i feels it.
[00:16:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh ya, forgot dishes. back in a few.
[00:17:54] <paulej72> this land was once covered in glaciers and the shit leftover covers everything. large bolders are a natual feature in many landscapes beacuse the are too big to move
[00:18:20] <paulej72> fuck the dishes. that is what i think i may do
[00:18:40] <San-Diego-Super-Chargers> Buzzard, what's a ditch witch? A Bobcat?
[00:19:25] <juggs> aren't there some massive desert boulders that ~do~ move... leave trails behind themselves. Read about it recently as someone worked out the mechanism by which they moved.
[00:19:37] * juggs goes to dig out a link
[00:19:46] <San-Diego-Super-Chargers> Correct, Juggs, even in my backyard :)
[00:20:21] <San-Diego-Super-Chargers> In my backyard, boulders are important because the indigenous peoples used them as morteros
[00:20:54] <San-Diego-Super-Chargers> http://es.wikipedia.org
[00:20:54] <NetCraft> ^ 04Wiki: 03Mortero (utensilio)
[00:20:56] <juggs> http://www.npr.org that was the one.
[00:21:22] <juggs> They get moved by wind in certain freezing conditions :D
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[00:23:32] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v mechanicjay] by juggler
[00:27:35] <paulej72> ditch witch is a trenching machine that can make a trench usuallt a aroud a foot wid or less and 3to4 feet deep
[00:29:56] <juggs> tunnel boring thing? Think we call them "moles" here. Utilities use them to run conduit and stuff under roadways etc
[00:29:59] <paulej72> http://www.joomag.com
[00:30:00] <NetCraft> ^ 03Ditch Witch Catalogs
[00:30:39] <paulej72> not a tunnel but rather a surface trench. piput you stuff in and backfill
[00:31:31] <paulej72> looks like a chainsaw on steroids
[00:31:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, basically a dirt saw
[00:32:19] <paulej72> depnding on the size can be walk behid or riding
[00:32:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> hand operated is generally enough unless you really need it done quickly
[00:34:17] <paulej72> http://www.ditchwitch.com
[00:34:18] <NetCraft> ^ 03Trenchers | Ditch Witch
[00:34:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> i may not be as well traveled as NC but I bet ya my favorite mouse that i know how to do a wider variety of jobs than most anyone in this channel.
[00:35:03] <paulej72> depends what you need to burry. if it is a 24" water main you need a big one
[00:35:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> true
[00:35:47] <juggs> ye gads those things look like something out of mad max
[00:36:17] <paulej72> i may be in that same boat. i grew up learning about how to do eveything as we were too poor to pay to have stuff done
[00:37:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> zactly. i could do basic car maintenance by like 8 years old.
[00:37:30] <paulej72> woked on big diesel tri axle coal trucks at my grand fathers trucking company
[00:37:31] <mechanicjay> I'm too cheap to pay anyone to do anything for me, so I learn and I do.
[00:37:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> fun.
[00:38:00] <juggs> I was thinking more of one of these... http://www.emtelle.com no need to backfill and pulls the cable / conduit as it goes.
[00:38:01] <NetCraft> ^ 03Emtelle - Moleploughing
[00:38:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> mechanicjay, i used to be. then i got old n lazy.
[00:38:11] <paulej72> i was helping my day by the time i was 12 with major repairs
[00:38:58] <paulej72> juggs: that woks where soil conditions are right. sandy soils are best
[00:39:04] <juggs> yah
[00:39:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod. if you haven't rebuilt a carburetor, you haven't lived.
[00:39:13] <juggs> indeed
[00:39:26] <paulej72> they use them in south jersey to pull gas lines
[00:40:11] <juggs> spent many a happy hour rejetting 2-stroke carbs to match higher flowing filters and expansion pipes for bikes and karts
[00:40:39] <paulej72> i was fairly young when i rebulit my first carb. must hav been 13 or so
[00:41:29] <paulej72> diesels dont have carbs though :)
[00:41:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> you know, i could build an entire house. electric, plumbing, heating and air, all the carpentry, bricklaying... only thing i'd need to hire done is pouring the foundation and that only because i've done it before and know what a bitch it is for anything large.
[00:42:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> it takes a LOT of tamping down the sand and you do NOT want to try to do that alone by hand.
[00:43:55] <paulej72> i wired up the garage when i was 12, when my dad and i were finifhing the inside.
[00:44:08] <juggs> hehe - you would have a laugh at my carpentry efforts... nothing ever square... same goes for tiling. elecs and plumbing are straight forward enough (nice to have decent test gear for elec stuff mind just to be sure)
[00:44:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, i just did the same to mine... guess it was this year.
[00:45:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> mostly bamboo flooring but the path from the back door to the garage door is in tile cause heavy traffic
[00:45:11] <paulej72> plumbing got easy when i switched to pvc from copper
[00:45:28] <juggs> I love noodling around with copper plumbing and solder. Everything seems to be going speedfit / pushfit hdpe these days though which I find a shame.
[00:45:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> hehehe. copper was a pain until i spent my army training learning to solder it for AC units.
[00:46:27] <paulej72> i never seem to get a good solder joint on the first time. i always seem to need to do it again
[00:46:50] <juggs> yeh, like anything, there's a knack to it. Most common mistake seems to be too much heat, or way to much flux all over the damn place making the solder run everywhere.
[00:46:56] <paulej72> not sure if it is my solder or what
[00:47:34] <paulej72> the lead free stuff for potable water is a bitch to work with
[00:47:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> after training and doing hvac for a few years, i could do it on my back where i could barely see the joint like nothin. silver solder ftw here by the way.
[00:48:17] <paulej72> what temp for silver solder
[00:48:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> cherry red
[00:49:09] <paulej72> map gas or something hotter
[00:49:10] <San-Diego-Super-Chargers> sukllver solder?
[00:49:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> not sure the actual temp
[00:49:19] <juggs> paulej72, use yorkshire fittings (solder ring) if end feed is being a bitch on copper.
[00:49:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> eh, propane should work.
[00:49:33] <San-Diego-Super-Chargers> oh god, once you go t silver solder your electronics will l suffer!
[00:49:58] <San-Diego-Super-Chargers> silver solder will destroy you.
[00:50:11] <juggs> I'd have thought a propane torch would be an issue around electronics too Sanny
[00:50:18] <juggs> :D
[00:50:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> San-Diego-Super-Chargers, talking soldering plumbing here
[00:50:43] <San-Diego-Super-Chargers> Buzzbomb is a plumber-solderer
[00:50:56] <paulej72> juggs forgot to mention that most of my copper jobs there was always water in the pipe because the upstream valve would alwas leak
[00:50:58] <San-Diego-Super-Chargers> I am an electronic solderer
[00:51:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> shush it or i shall solder your ass-crack up
[00:51:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh fun. yeah that'll make for bad joints.
[00:51:44] <juggs> paulej72, then ur screwed - if it's wet, it ain't going to solder. End of. You just get steam... and leaks.
[00:51:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> i can do electronics soldering, if barely. surface mount can eat a dick though.
[00:51:56] <paulej72> lets do some cast iron drains with poured lead joints
[00:52:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> don't really need to pour em. get the soft stuff and hammer it tight.
[00:53:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> those been illegal for quite a while in the areas i worked though.
[00:53:52] <San-Diego-Super-Chargers> https://www.youtube.com
[00:53:53] <NetCraft> ^ 03Star Trek: The Next Generation Intro HD - YouTube
[00:54:04] <San-Diego-Super-Chargers> Space
[00:54:24] <paulej72> never has to do one as pvc and abs are common where i has to do stuff, but when my house wasmbuilt it seems that some driun lines were never glued
[00:54:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> man picard can suck it. kirk ftmfw
[00:54:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> gah. bet that made for some fun.
[00:55:20] <mechanicjay> gotta run, later guys.
[00:55:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> adios
[00:55:47] <paulej72> cya mechanicjay
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[00:55:59] <paulej72> well i think i am going to read a book later all
[00:56:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> nite
[00:56:04] <ciri> nite, sleep well TheMightyBuzzard
[00:57:23] <juggs> steel plumbing can be fun too... get to break out the big taps and dies for those. My shelves of tools I've only used for one job ever is somewhat worrying though.
[00:57:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> how bout the ones you've never used but seemed like a good idea to buy anyway?
[00:58:41] <juggs> ahh - there's some of those too. Ohh.. look, in the bargain bin, reputable make, might come in handy. Yah, there's a feckin reason it's in the bargain bin... no-one ever has a use for it :D
[00:59:20] * SirFinkus wishes he could build things with his hands
[01:00:03] <juggs> I am gradually making my way through my 100 length bundle of 15mm copper pipes though... well, I've used about 1/3rd of it in 20 years or so and it's moved with me all that time :D
[01:00:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> SirFinkus, only thing to it is do it until you're good at it.
[01:00:20] <SirFinkus> yeah, same with everything else
[01:00:35] <SirFinkus> the idea of "talent" is mostly bullshit
[01:00:51] <juggs> except tiling... that needs devilry.
[01:01:14] <SirFinkus> haha, I've actually done a little tiling
[01:01:18] <SirFinkus> just small bathrooms
[01:01:26] <SirFinkus> I was decent at ti
[01:01:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> juggs, ya, i have about... um... yeah i have no idea how many board feet but it's a hundred or two 14' long 1x12s of mahogany sitting in my shop loft waiting to be used up.
[01:01:41] <SirFinkus> for a big room I'd probably be fucked though
[01:02:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> juggs, taping and bedding drywall is the hardest for me.
[01:02:37] <SirFinkus> I did a bit of metal and woodshop in high school, I was pretty bad at everything except mastercam
[01:02:42] <juggs> tiling is the one job I absolutely detest with a deep loathing I have felt for no other task. 10 minutes in and I'm effin and blinding and throwing tantrums. Just something about it drives me insane. Never, ever, again.
[01:03:00] <SirFinkus> I eventually got kind of decent at welding
[01:03:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> now welding i like. i'm not badass at it but i can run a fairly pretty bead with a cracker box.
[01:03:38] <juggs> mahogany is seriously pricey these days.
[01:03:50] <SirFinkus> I did mostly stick welding
[01:03:57] <SirFinkus> good fun
[01:04:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> juggs, yeah. i paid a dollar a board foot cause a lumber yard was closing down.
[01:04:30] <SirFinkus> butt welding was my favorite
[01:04:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> you just like it cause it has the word butt in it
[01:05:00] <SirFinkus> naw, it's magical
[01:05:05] <SirFinkus> you get two piece of metal
[01:05:16] <SirFinkus> grind down the edges at a 45 degree angle
[01:05:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> okay, i just like it cause it has the word butt in it then
[01:05:29] <SirFinkus> first pass is with 6010
[01:05:46] <SirFinkus> the key is you have a hole in your puddle that closes up at the backside
[01:05:55] <SirFinkus> if you do it right, you'll get a bead on both sides
[01:06:01] <SirFinkus> then you fill in the rest with 7018
[01:06:02] <juggs> same with my copper - plumbers' merchant closing down. Have to keep it in the house - keep copper in an outhouse these days and it goes walk about. I've had the damn stuff propped up in the corner of one room or another for longer than I can remember. Effin pikeys even ripped down my coax tv aerial and made away with is, presumably for the copper core.
[01:06:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> you know, i may just ebay that shit. it's selling for $14 or so a board foot right now.
[01:07:15] <juggs> oh wait "pikeys" is not a pc word any more. thieving scum.
[01:07:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's not?
[01:07:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> excellent, i can enjoy using it even more.
[01:09:07] <SirFinkus> http://youtu.be
[01:09:08] <NetCraft> ^ 03Stick Welding Tips for 6010 Open Root &7018 fill cap - YouTube ( http://www.youtube.com )
[01:09:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> huh, that's like $20k worth of lumber nowadays. moreso because it's mahogany from somewhere that's illegal to get mahogany from anymore and very, very good quality.
[01:11:08] <juggs> oh some sensitivity about it being used offensively to malign self described Romany Gypsy travellers (caravan folk). It's all pure coincidence that when a travelling caravan horde pull up in the vicinity anything metallic, not nailed down and electrified goes missing. No, they proclaim, it's not them guv. As they drive around all day in flat beds, ring bells asking for scrap metal. Nope, that's just a spurious correlation
[01:12:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya know, i feel kinda bad about having my mahogany end table i made all covered up with shit, coffee rings, and ground in ashes from the ashtray mucking it up now.
[01:12:36] <juggs> SirFinkus, only time I tried stick welding I ended up with an unholy lumpy mess. Either the stick would ermmm stick to the piece of would not strike. Much prefer mig or even tig.
[01:12:57] <SirFinkus> it takes a certain touch
[01:13:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, i never put mig or tig rig in my hands. stick only.
[01:13:19] <juggs> TheMightyBuzzard, surely you can just sand those marks out and re-finish?
[01:13:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> mostly cause i never had a mig or tig
[01:13:21] <SirFinkus> if you're really good, and using 7018, the slag should peel itself up as you go
[01:13:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> juggs, oh sure. it's a simple stain and finish. easy to redo.
[01:13:44] <SirFinkus> just stick and oxy fuel stuff for me
[01:14:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> well brazing too. learned that retipping oil well drill bits.
[01:14:39] <juggs> just practice. I did a fair bit of mig when I was mechanicing, you get to know what to use and what gas rate to set after a while and then it just flows.
[01:15:17] <SirFinkus> same with stick welding
[01:15:28] <SirFinkus> except for the gas shit of course
[01:15:49] <SirFinkus> gotta fine tune your amperage based on the position, the rod, and your welding style
[01:16:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> or fine tune your welding style if your cracker box doesn't allow for anything very fine.
[01:17:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> one of these days i'll get to use a good welder. until then it's 45/60/etc...
[01:17:57] <juggs> same with mig, set feed rate, set gas, choose wire gauge, learn to keep the pool moving. Like absolutely an tool at all really. Give a basic impact driver and a hammer to someone unfamiliar with them and they'll end up breaking digits not removing stubborn fixtures.
[01:18:27] <SirFinkus> my impression is that mig welding is a little easier
[01:19:18] <SirFinkus> because you have a little more flexibility adjusting stuff, and you don't need to keep moving your hand to different positions as the rod is consumed
[01:19:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> tig, man i never used it but i seen some beautiful welds done with that...
[01:19:42] <juggs> seems so to me. but then my experiences have been with an ancient stick welder from the ark (hoho) vs more recent mig kit with better eyewear etc. so not a fair comparison really,
[01:20:02] <SirFinkus> I've never used a mig welder
[01:21:02] <juggs> tig is very hard to do well. Worked with some ex-aerospace apprenticed guys while mechanicing - their welds were pieces of art.
[01:21:13] <dx3bydt3> I've done tig, mig, and some stick welding with a crappy stick welder. I love tig.
[01:21:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, zactly
[01:21:23] <SirFinkus> my teacher said it's much easier to go stick -> mig than the other way around
[01:21:41] <dx3bydt3> I've welded stuff with tig that I couldn't imagine welding otherwise.
[01:21:50] <SirFinkus> tig looks fun
[01:23:26] <dx3bydt3> Aluminum or stainless steel ends up looking pristine after doing a bead, with no brushing or grinding. That said, it is much much slower than mig.
[01:23:58] <SirFinkus> I've heard aluminum is a real pita to weld
[01:24:32] <dx3bydt3> Not so much with tig, I prefer it really. It is predictable.
[01:25:44] <dx3bydt3> Steel wants to warp. Stainless more so. Aluminum stays where you clamp it, and flows the same way every time.
[01:26:51] <dx3bydt3> you do need to be careful about the arc, and the fill, and keep the pool steady, but that's true regardless.
[01:28:11] <juggs> Ya the ex-aero guys got to do the showy parts, like custom stainless headers and stuff - I was the lowly citizen doing stuff that mostly wouldn't be seen with the mig and general spannering. They'd occasionally let me loose on a real part with the tig once I'd noob'd around with offcuts for long enough to risk it :D Happy days.
[01:30:15] <dx3bydt3> when I made my still I welded some 2" copper pipe to 2" stainless steel, it worked perfectly, and you can see the blending of the alloy in the weld. That's something else that is brilliant about tig, it is just so flexible in what you can do.
[01:30:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> i never did it professionally except on the odd occasion i needed to weld something for the used car lot i worked at. did build my own metal shop building though.
[01:32:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> 18 years and not a single busted weld. i'm calling it a win.
[01:32:27] <dx3bydt3> Well done.
[01:32:56] <SirFinkus> https://www.youtube.com 2nd neatest welding technology
[01:32:56] <NetCraft> ^ 03Friction Stir Steel Butt Weld Demonstration - Manufacturing Technology, Inc. - YouTube
[01:33:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, someone linked that here a while back. it's downright nifty.
[01:33:56] <SirFinkus> nothing well ever been as cool as explosive welding though
[01:34:02] <dx3bydt3> at work we tried to get friction stir welding working to join thin(0 .030") aluminum
[01:34:35] <dx3bydt3> we were doing right angle butt joints of extruded profiles though, and it didn't ever work out.
[01:35:26] <dx3bydt3> Tig remains the only viable option for our stuff.
[01:37:50] <SirFinkus> http://all-geo.org
[01:37:55] <SirFinkus> just saw this sexy thing
[01:59:39] <juggs> I am unsure if that is oil on canvas or an extreme close-up of some exotic mineral deposit :-/
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[02:00:19] <tecnomo> just bought sysadmintoolbox.com any one got an idea for it
[02:00:23] <tecnomo> i was not bought yet
[02:00:34] <tecnomo> i got from godaddy
[02:00:40] <tecnomo> not a squatter
[02:02:57] <juggs> another hirens boot cd type thing? Maybe a dual boot flashy stainless steel usb key that can boot to TAILS, Hirens, Some-Win-Environment with all the windowsy ex-sysinternals tools stuff pre-rolled
[02:04:07] <juggs> surprised you found that name un-camped
[02:06:03] <tecnomo> i know it was like 3 am. i was just looking around and was like i wounder whats on this domain.
[02:06:10] <tecnomo> i had to buy it
[02:06:21] <SirFinkus> the latter juggs
[02:06:37] <SirFinkus> http://all-geo.org
[02:07:07] <tecnomo> My skills are not up to any type of live cd.
[02:07:47] <juggs> tecnomo, what are your skills up to? Perhaps we should start from there?
[02:08:40] <tecnomo> not much mainly windows admin type stuff.
[02:08:56] <tecnomo> But i am wiling to learn.
[02:09:53] <tecnomo> i am Getting ready to take my Exam 70-687 Configuring Windows 8 a requirement for work.
[02:11:55] <juggs> So maybe start there... if you are a win sysadmin, no doubt you have a handy little bootable usb key or optical with your own favourite collection of tools. Be that boot sector repairers, offline registry editors or file recovery bits n bobs etc. Of course that would be a read only bootable media for sanity's sake. Do you have such a toolbelt?
[02:12:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> tecnomo, nobody saying you gotta do it all alone either. get a partner or a small team together if you don't feel up to it yourself.
[02:13:03] <juggs> ^^
[02:13:22] <cykros> the ultimate boot cd iso is probably worth having around too...that thing has most any utility you could hope for
[02:13:30] <cykros> www.ultimatebootcd.com i believe
[02:14:10] <tecnomo> http://trinityhome.org
[02:14:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> or sell a phillips head screwdriver with a usb drive molded into the handle with ultimatebootcd burned to it.
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[02:15:54] <juggs> perhaps offer some amalgamation of these tools on a swish looking usb key - but you need a unique sell point. Make it the invicible key. Design it with fuses in the write lines, write your collection then blow the fuses so it is irrevocably resitant to virus or malware infection from any machine it is plugged in to. This may need some seed funding.
[02:15:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> plenty of stuff to do, just takes a while to pick what you want.
[02:16:57] <tecnomo> one suggestion i got was a past bin style site for scripts
[02:17:12] <juggs> done to death
[02:17:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> wouldn't suck but i think github and pastebin have that pretty covered
[02:17:56] <juggs> wait... are you looking to make $ on this or want to do something altruistic? Kinda shapes the discussion I think.
[02:18:24] <tecnomo> i dont care about the money
[02:18:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's all in the value you add to your base materials.
[02:19:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> don't think of it as money then. think of it as demand for what you're offering. nobody saying you HAVE to make a profit.
[02:19:29] <tecnomo> i want some thing that gives peopel new to IT a place find what tool are available to them.
[02:19:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> same rules apply for making folks want what you have.
[02:20:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod. newb admin's first place to look sort of thing?
[02:20:13] <tecnomo> i currently work for a small msp and a lot of peopel did't know how to change win password or what db is tell i got there
[02:20:31] <tecnomo> well mid sized 25 techs
[02:20:39] <tecnomo> about 3k PC and servers
[02:21:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> hrm. might start out making it an internal site for your company's techs then and when it's going good push it live.
[02:22:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> built in beta testers
[02:23:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> or as i like to call them, SN users
[02:23:54] <juggs> https://www.reddit.com
[02:23:59] <juggs> :D
[02:24:37] <tecnomo> i have ran several small Drupal sites. With low or no traffic.
[02:25:25] <chromas> throw up a wiki—like the arch wiki but platform agnostic
[02:25:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> arch wiki is fairly badass
[02:26:07] <juggs> sysadmin wiki with nexus for OS / distro
[02:26:34] <juggs> with links out to commonly used fixer apps
[02:26:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> yar
[02:26:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> now we're talkin
[02:26:52] <tecnomo> i like it
[02:26:52] <chromas> anyone who wants to create an account has to stop by irc and get a token from the bot so you know they're not a bot
[02:27:12] * juggs whacks crutchy
[02:27:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> chromas, you n yer bots
[02:27:28] <juggs> damn auto-complete
[02:27:31] <tecnomo> Can you provide an example of that chromas.
[02:27:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> tecnomo, don't listen to him. he just has an irc bot fetish.
[02:28:00] <chromas> there's a few wiki-irc bots (we have one even) that announce changes and abuse blocks and stuff
[02:28:18] <juggs> yah try #wiki on this here server
[02:28:20] * chromas rubs oil on his bot. Oh yeah!
[02:28:26] <tecnomo> This is my first irc that have participated in.
[02:28:34] <juggs> welcome
[02:28:48] <juggs> it may be old but it does the job
[02:29:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> plus it has mad geek cred
[02:29:26] <tecnomo> That it does
[02:30:05] <juggs> it does? Spent at least a decade being sneered at by friends for such things. Now it's the new cool.
[02:30:15] <juggs> ~shrug~
[02:30:41] <tecnomo> Look what twitch did with it.
[02:31:13] <juggs> What did they do? Integrate it with their live vid stuff?
[02:32:24] <tecnomo> yes and the fact that the way they crowed play games
[02:34:27] <juggs> well when you have irc why re-invent the wheel. A few years (cough more than a few) I ran a similar thing using php - a browser based chat room. What a nightmare and a very rapid way to get kicked off shared hosting at the time :D
[02:40:06] <juggs> TMB - I'm thinking a slash/soyl/alike with nexus for OS / distro (which we want to do anyway for our nexus stuff) - sysadmins submit their latest tips n tricks as articles in the various nexus, they can be discussed an improved in commentary, and then perhaps some definitive answer reached, published on some well SEO'd headline site that functions as the quick and dirty Q&A fix that sysadmins need when their hair is on fire.
[02:41:50] <juggs> But is that just not stackoverflow / stackexchange?
[02:42:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> eh, dunno. i think the wiki idea was better but it wouldn't suck to at least have some news/blog component to it.
[02:43:12] <Konomi> SoylentOS is 0s and 1s too
[02:43:19] <chromas> TheMightyBuzzard: you can show 'em how to set up a slashd instance
[02:43:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> sometimes folks just wanna add a line or two, not make a big production out of it
[02:44:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> chromas, can not. never done it.
[02:44:45] <chromas> (wink)
[02:45:33] <juggs> TMB, you're probably right, I'm miles away from sysadmin land. I was just spewing ideas out - like an ice comet headed for Sol. :D
[02:46:06] * Konomi gags from the nerd
[02:46:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> juggs, wouldn't suck for us to have a regular sysadmin nexus when we get em up and running though. tip of the day at least.
[02:46:25] <tecnomo> Has any one done an ss64 style site but with scripts.
[02:47:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> never heard of ss64
[02:48:13] <tecnomo> ss64.com it's where i know what but cmd i do know.
[02:48:47] <tecnomo> most cmd vash osx ps and orcal man page
[02:48:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> looks wicked simple
[02:49:00] <tecnomo> it is
[02:49:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> crutchy's your man if you don't mind it being done in php
[02:49:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> really though, you could do that in anything.
[02:50:07] <Konomi> batch programming
[02:50:09] <Konomi> off you go
[02:50:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> the web design is the hard part, coding the back end is easy enough. least for me.
[02:50:31] <chromas> mysite.bat
[02:50:34] <juggs> does ss64 offer anything other and above w3c css?
[02:50:42] <Konomi> mybat.bat
[02:50:56] <juggs> flying rats then...
[02:50:58] <Konomi> haveyouseenmy.bat
[02:51:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> Konomi, hrm... you prolly could.
[02:51:08] <chromas> TheMightyBuzzard: you just need to embed a 6MB flash object
[02:51:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> juggs, chromas wants klined
[02:51:28] <Konomi> TheMightyBuzzard: not sure I'd worry it wouldn't be able to manipulate strings well enough
[02:51:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> Konomi, cygwin sed awk grep
[02:51:49] <Konomi> embedded device with flash objevt
[02:51:51] <juggs> oh hell... BLASPHEMY DETECTED!!!!
[02:51:56] <Konomi> TheMightyBuzzard: that's not batch ;p
[02:52:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> is if you call it from a batch file =P
[02:52:09] * juggs kicks chromas
[02:52:17] <Konomi> can you even do that though?
[02:52:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> sure
[02:52:30] * chromas writhes in agony. My poo spot!
[02:52:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> used to monkey with that back when i still had a winders box for something besides games.
[02:53:06] <Konomi> gross
[02:53:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> we're all young n stupid at some point.
[02:53:23] <juggs> serves you right you ankle poo spot wielder
[02:54:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> okay, offtopic, simpsons futurama crossover is giving me space herpes
[02:54:40] <chromas> poo spot is from Angry BEavers
[02:54:52] <tecnomo> i think at first i could do some thing like the commandments of IT 1. Dont trust end users or sales.
[02:55:13] <chromas> zero-index that list, mister!
[02:55:42] <chromas> 0: don't listen to the pedants
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[03:04:00] <juggs> tecnomo, your next step should be to speak to godaddy (or hostgator) and get the domain registrant privacy option. Then check your employment contract terms before using the domain for any internal to work knowledge pool / wiki type stuff. Those created whole in our employ remain with company terms can be nasty.
[03:04:25] <juggs> s/whole/while/
[03:04:25] <sedctl> <juggs> tecnomo, your next step should be to speak to godaddy (or hostgator) and get the domain registrant privacy option. Then check your employment contract terms before using the domain for any internal to work knowledge pool / wiki type stuff. Those created while in our employ remain with company terms can be nasty.
[03:04:32] -!- mythterj [mythterj!mythterj@tonvizu.sdf.org] has joined #Soylent
[03:07:11] <juggs> Or is Richard Pigg of RTec, Il some dubious ruse?
[03:07:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> Huh, NY, Chicago, DC, and Detroit make up 20% of the homicides for the entire US.
[03:07:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> but only 6% of the population.
[03:08:10] <juggs> who knew... people want to kill each other when kettled together
[03:09:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> also all blue cities.
[03:09:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> the ones with the strictest gun controls as well.
[03:09:52] <juggs> I've lost track of US politics.. all looks gray to me
[03:11:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's probably because they don't have any good places to go fishing.
[03:12:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> it calms me down pretty good unless a fish yanks my fishing pole off into the lake.
[03:12:26] <juggs> seems to me they all met up at the same lake and fished either side of the midway point therein
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[03:14:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> meh, think i'll go sleep now.
[03:14:58] <juggs> Won't be long before it diverges again and there's commies under beds and such :D
[03:15:23] <juggs> sleep well BuzzPerlSabre
[03:22:37] <tecnomo> Thanks juggs
[03:26:41] <juggs> np - just food for thought. Seen too many go under with good ideas, submarined by legal BS once they became popular. No idea if it applies, just thought I'd mention it.
[03:28:27] -!- FunPika has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[03:29:13] <tecnomo> my msp contract says i cant do any type of IT support for any not even pro bono. But since we don't provide web design/admin i doesn't apply. at lease that's my understanding.
[03:30:00] <tecnomo> any type of IT support that we provide
[03:30:16] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Twitter Suspends Indie Journalists - http://sylnt.us - better-than-detention
[03:39:47] <juggs> I'm not a lawyer and am not in the US, so on all counts I am not placed to advise on this for you. In my jurisdiction though, I'd be treading carefully until I knew where I stood with absolute certainty before doing anything with the domain. If you got it at normal .com prices you are sat on a winner, don't let enthusiasm blind you.
[03:41:00] <tecnomo> I would sell it if i got a good offer. and i knew the person would not suqate it .
[03:43:53] <juggs> You're mad, you have it til 11/02/15. Sweat it even if you do nothing with it.
[03:45:05] <Konomi> the -r switch for journalctl is handy
[03:45:09] <juggs> I have to ask... as everyone is being pansy... what would you consider a good offer?
[03:45:19] <Konomi> reverses the log order so it's from newest to oldest when it outputs
[03:45:52] <juggs> grep used to be handy too...
[03:46:22] <juggs> awk and sed were handy
[03:47:13] <juggs> tail -f -n 15 used to handy
[03:47:36] <Konomi> tailf ;p
[03:48:09] <juggs> tailfctl
[03:49:30] <juggs> I admit, I have not dived into his whole noise debacle yet... but binary logs leaves me cold.
[03:49:33] <Konomi> juggsctl
[03:49:44] <Konomi> foward to syslog if that bothers you ;p
[03:50:56] <Konomi> $ grep ForwardToSyslog /etc/systemd/journald.conf
[03:50:57] <Konomi> #ForwardToSyslog=yes
[03:51:42] * juggs sidesteps and parries - why change what does not need to be changed? Many beard nesting chicks were disturbed by this motion, you best have a good answer.
[03:52:02] <Konomi> you're right we should've stayed on 640kb of memory!
[03:52:03] <Konomi> ;p
[03:52:25] <juggs> AHHHH I AM BILL GATES
[03:53:39] <Konomi> lol
[03:53:40] <ciri> lol that's funny!
[03:53:44] <Konomi> ciri--
[03:53:44] <Bender> karma - ciri: -11
[03:54:25] <juggs> no seriously though... forward a binary log to an ascii log for compatability.... I'm not feeling the benefit of the binary log thing in this process. What's the benefit to me as the sysadmin with hair on fire?
[03:54:26] <Konomi> ciri or dog poop which is more intelligent, you decide vote now
[03:54:53] <juggs> !vote bewbs
[03:55:07] <juggs> oh dear I spoiled my voting card
[03:55:29] <Konomi> juggs: because you scan store the logs smaller for one and search them and I am sure a sysadmin can run a binary to view the logs...
[03:55:32] <Konomi> I don't see the fuss
[03:55:44] <Konomi> if you have limited space on the server device having binary logs would be far better than plain text
[03:58:16] <juggs> so we are talking embedded devices? last I looked we countered log bloat with rotation and expiration on servers and desktops which have so much log storage space it's become irrelevant. It seems like a solution looking for a problem if size of log is the driver.
[04:00:24] <juggs> mebbe Debian-Embedded-Fork would be appropriate?
[04:00:50] <Konomi> debian already have an embedded version
[04:03:03] * chromas suggests storing logs to postgres :D
[04:04:16] <juggs> so where's the gain in minimising logs? I don't recall a box running out of space due to log overflow for a good 15 years and that was because some noob failed to set rotations or heaven forbid remote logging which anybody with more than I dunno 10 boxen has?
[04:08:51] <juggs> Ach no.. sod this. I don't want to get into it. Anytime "camps" appear around an issue, it's political. I'm just going to step away and see where the dice lay next time I need to upgrade.#
[04:10:42] <Konomi> I wasn't going to bother answering you obviously have your mind made up ;p
[04:10:42] <chromas> it's not so bad; nobody's foaming at the mouth here over it (at the moment)
[04:11:22] <juggs> Konomi, no doubt you think I am anti-systemd?
[04:11:31] <Konomi> I think you might be biased ;p
[04:13:45] <Konomi> technically logrotate puts your logs into a binary format too btw no one bitches about that though
[04:16:04] <juggs> I have no foot in any camp. I may carry a little bias from being able to carry any platter from any expired machine to another machine and use plain text inspection of the logs to ascertain cause of death, sure. I am frankly sick and tired of the drama over the whole thing, that's for sure. The only information is coming from two diametrically opposed camps with equal frothiness.
[04:16:33] <Konomi> you do realise you can just copy the journal database to another pc and do exactly the same thing
[04:17:00] <juggs> no
[04:17:18] <juggs> oh wait... no-one thought to mention it
[04:17:33] <juggs> much like the docs
[04:17:51] <Konomi> I'm sure the manual for syslog tells you you can move files from it too and look at them later...
[04:18:38] <juggs> I'm sure the man for syslog does
[04:21:43] <juggs> does the man or info for systemd-journald document this also?
[04:21:56] * juggs chews toe cheese
[04:22:19] <chromas> I can't believe it's not toecheese!
[04:22:33] <juggs> well it's stringy
[04:22:33] <chromas> actually, I do 'cause you're asking questions instead of ranting
[04:22:58] <juggs> I never fucking rant you worm
[04:23:01] <juggs> ohhhh
[04:23:11] <juggs> sorry
[04:23:23] <Konomi> journalctl --file /run/log/journal/59fea7c771ad83f8739a6176000009cf/system.journal
[04:23:26] <Konomi> \o/
[04:23:32] * chromas puts away the rms 'interview' videos
[04:25:04] <Konomi> juggs:
[04:25:05] <Konomi> --file=GLOB
[04:25:06] <Konomi> Takes a file glob as an argument. If specified, journalctl will operate on the specified journal files matching GLOB instead of the default runtime and system journal paths. May be specified multiple times, in which case files will be suitably interleaved.
[04:25:22] <Konomi> from man journalctl
[04:27:08] <juggs> Konomi, you honestly think this is a good thing don't you? Please be honest, I'm not judging or about to go on an attacky rant or anything. I must be missing something,.
[04:27:25] <Konomi> seems fine to me I am cautious with everything though
[04:27:44] <Konomi> database files have advantages over plain text speed and storage capacity
[04:28:15] <Konomi> corruption can be a down side for dbs if the parser can't handle them
[04:28:20] <Konomi> don't see many other issues with using a db format
[04:29:54] <Konomi> the journal also stores way more information per entry
[04:29:59] <Konomi> can see it with -o verbose
[04:31:28] <Konomi> there's about a paragraph of text for enteries with that I imagine that might come in handy for debugging one day
[04:34:13] <Konomi> still haven't thought of any major down sides yet ;p
[04:35:47] <Konomi> I won't miss writing freaking init scripts either
[04:40:41] <juggs> init scripts, upstart scripts, I've not ventured into systemd requirements - does it even understand runlevels? Mind you canonical broke that with upstart.
[04:40:52] <Konomi> it's basically an ini file
[04:41:06] <juggs> a what?
[04:41:57] <Konomi> http://paste.ofcode.org
[04:41:58] <NetCraft> ^ 03Paste ofCode
[04:42:02] <Konomi> it looks like an ini file.
[04:42:42] <juggs> ini files should be in the registry. Give them their own hive or something.
[04:42:52] <Konomi> in contrust
[04:42:53] <Konomi> http://paste.ofcode.org
[04:42:54] <NetCraft> ^ 03Paste ofCode
[04:43:39] <juggs> looks like an init script
[04:43:48] <Konomi> both do the same thing
[04:43:57] <Konomi> minus some code this one seems to have for upstart >.>
[04:44:30] <juggs> so what did we gain?
[04:45:00] <Konomi> less troublesome initilisation of system services?
[04:45:58] <juggs> proof of is where? Not had any init related woes for a long time.
[04:47:40] <Konomi> "we made this work faster and it's smaller what do you think?" "BLASPHEMY I WANT MY SLOW VERSION BACK"
[04:48:40] <juggs> ah well I'm sold
[04:49:37] <juggs> CAPS always sells me
[04:50:42] <SirFinkus> caps is juggs' sudo
[04:50:55] <juggs> .op
[04:50:55] -!- mode/#Soylent [+o juggs] by juggler
[04:51:01] <juggs> IS MY SUDO
[04:51:06] <juggs> .deop
[04:51:06] -!- mode/#Soylent [-o juggs] by juggler
[04:51:34] <SirFinkus> so soylent news has secret police
[04:51:42] * SirFinkus dons tinfoil
[04:51:47] <juggs> you vill all agree or you vill be round up n shot!
[04:53:41] * chromas notices the round-up service is handled by a bash script; looks for other bash exploits
[04:54:12] <juggs> SirFinkus, yeh, the secret police that advertise themselves on the wiki about page. Not exactly stasi :D
[04:55:33] <Konomi> it's a shame google plus is so unpopular seems easier to use than facebook
[04:55:51] <juggs> hmmm.. if we mention round-up enough will we get sprayed with glyphosate?
[04:56:13] <JamesNZ> coffee--
[04:56:13] <Bender> karma - coffee: 905
[04:56:17] <JamesNZ> coffee--
[04:56:17] <Bender> karma - coffee: 904
[04:56:23] <Konomi> caffeine++
[04:56:23] <Bender> karma - caffeine: 36
[04:57:05] <juggs> ach the reprobate islands broke lose again!
[04:57:22] <chromas> monsantoctl start lawsuit
[04:58:01] <juggs> needs more than a lawsuit
[04:58:46] <Konomi> https://www.youtube.com
[04:58:47] <NetCraft> ^ 03The Six Stages of systemd [linux.conf.au 2014] - YouTube
[04:58:49] <Konomi> this might be fun
[05:02:13] * juggs hugs everyone equally and leaves before it gets weird or uncomfortable. I have a grey suit vote juggs at the next election even if I'm not in the ballot card :D It'll be random but shit will get fixed. Be well!
[05:03:48] <chromas> I'd vote for anyone here over any actual politician
[05:04:00] <Konomi> can't argue with that
[05:04:23] <chromas> Ethanol-fueled for sherif! >:)
[05:05:08] <chromas> speaking of which, whatever happened to _NSAKEY?
[05:07:43] <Konomi> ._.
[05:07:48] * Konomi burns chromas at the stake
[05:07:54] <chromas> the user
[05:08:04] <Konomi> nsa wanted it's key back
[05:09:11] <SirFinkus> the've gathered everything they need to for now
[05:09:19] <SirFinkus> the hammer should fall soon
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[06:30:29] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Drug Unlocks Malleable, Fast-Learning, Child-LIke State In Adult Brain - http://sylnt.us - My-Back-Pages
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[07:11:50] <crutchy> hmm
[07:11:57] <crutchy> ~isup soylentnews.org
[07:11:59] <exec> soylentnews.org: HTTP/1.1 200 OK
[07:12:27] <crutchy> chromas, did exec have a soylent-alert false alarm?
[07:13:24] <crutchy> exec flagged a soylentnews.org message about 6 minutes ago
[07:13:30] -!- Tachyon has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[07:19:21] <chromas> not that I've seen
[07:19:30] <Konomi> getting sick of these articles "vultures would end zombies etc"
[07:19:31] <chromas> though technically I haven't really tested it :|
[07:19:37] <Konomi> hello vulture zombies would happen!
[07:20:06] * chromas summons skeletons to fight the zombies
[07:20:17] <chromas> they ain't got no flesh to bite
[07:21:05] <Konomi> if we're playing it that way
[07:21:16] <Konomi> I choose slashdot beta as my minion
[07:21:52] <chromas> because it won't die and it has plenty of protective margin?
[07:22:19] <Konomi> nah because it uses a sneak back door attack
[07:22:20] <Konomi> ;p
[07:22:35] <Konomi> I did chekc up on slashdot and beta is still beta ha
[07:27:15] * crutchy pokes Konomi with beta
[07:27:33] <Konomi> we have peeps visiting and they have kids
[07:27:37] <Konomi> can hear them from here
[07:27:44] <Konomi> all I can think is "never ever ever ever ever"
[07:28:22] <crutchy> kids are awesome
[07:28:29] <crutchy> well, my kids are
[07:28:51] <crutchy> a lot of other peoples kids are undisciplined bogans
[07:29:02] <crutchy> usually a reflection of the parents
[07:31:17] <crutchy> new soylent poll question: should all prospective parents have to undergo a psych evaluation?
[07:31:28] <Konomi> like whailing banshees
[07:31:34] <chromas> crutchy: that is very extremely true
[07:31:39] <Konomi> should all parents*
[07:32:20] <crutchy> any parents who fail have their kids launched into space
[07:32:41] <crutchy> and the parents get turned into soylent green
[07:32:42] * Konomi premptively pops some pain killers
[07:33:12] * crutchy had a phenergen before
[07:33:28] <crutchy> pulling weeds == allergic reaction :(
[07:35:50] * Konomi gets the epipen and goes for the back of crutchy's neck
[07:35:51] <Konomi> I'll fix it
[07:36:23] <crutchy> you just want an excuse to play vampire
[07:36:35] <Konomi> not really the pen gets all the fun not me
[07:36:47] <crutchy> thats ok then
[07:36:51] <crutchy> err. i think :/
[07:37:27] <crutchy> phenergen is enough for me
[07:38:14] <chromas> ~define phenergen
[07:38:22] <chromas> :(
[07:38:34] <exec> process timed out: ~define phenergen
[07:38:51] <crutchy> chromas, how did your idea of using a bot to provide token for wiki signup go?
[07:38:58] <crutchy> saw it mentioned in the backlog somewhere
[07:39:24] <crutchy> ~rehash
[07:39:25] <exec> successfully reloaded exec file (97 aliases)
[07:39:46] <crutchy> (having alias definitions in individual script files)++
[07:39:46] <Bender> karma - (having alias definitions in individual script files): 1
[07:39:47] <chromas> not so well; they said "fuck you and your bots, bitch!" and then made me eat dirt
[07:40:01] <crutchy> was it decent quality dirt?
[07:40:08] <chromas> no :(
[07:40:18] <crutchy> dirt from a dog's bum?
[07:40:48] <chromas> Now I'm not a dirt snob but I've been around the block a few times (like yer mom, tama) and that's definitely one of the worse dirts I've had
[07:41:08] <chromas> or would that be worst? whatever
[07:41:11] <crutchy> that sucks. if you look in the wiki userlist, prolly 90% are blocked, and most accounts that get created are auto-spam
[07:41:46] <crutchy> chromas++ # for good anti-spam wiki idea thingy
[07:41:46] <Bender> karma - chromas: 50
[07:42:29] <chromas> now it's up to you to implement it, crutchy :)
[07:42:57] <crutchy> would need mediawiki tinkering
[07:43:15] <crutchy> which is php, but not sure if staff would enable it even if i figured out how
[07:43:51] <crutchy> understandably though. i'm an amateur
[08:24:59] <Konomi> http://research.google.com
[08:24:59] <NetCraft> ^ 03Music Timeline
[08:43:40] <Konomi> jazz died
[08:53:24] <Konomi> hmm peeps what do you think
[08:53:31] <Konomi> disabled/enabled/ignored
[08:53:35] <Konomi> or
[08:53:43] <Konomi> performance/powersave/ignore
[08:53:59] <Konomi> 3 settings for functions that implemement power settings for hardware
[08:54:01] <ciri> 4
[08:54:02] <ciri> 5
[08:54:04] <ciri> 6
[08:54:06] <ciri> 7
[08:54:08] <ciri> 8
[08:54:10] <ciri> 9
[08:54:10] <Konomi> ciri--
[08:54:10] <Bender> karma - ciri: -12
[08:54:12] <ciri> 10 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[08:54:13] <Konomi> ciri--
[08:54:13] <Bender> karma - ciri: -13
[09:30:43] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - People don’t Recognize Statistically Significant Eelationships, but they can Learn - http://sylnt.us - 95%-confidence
[09:49:40] <JamesNZ> *facepalm*
[09:59:19] <Konomi> ...
[10:06:21] <ar> Eels?
[10:06:44] <ar> tea++
[10:06:44] <Bender> karma - tea: 227
[10:06:48] <ar> coffee--
[10:06:48] <Bender> karma - coffee: 903
[10:10:44] <Konomi> caffeine++
[10:10:44] <Bender> karma - caffeine: 37
[10:18:40] <SirFinkus> ciri--
[10:18:40] <Bender> karma - ciri: -14
[10:26:59] <Konomi> code made time for the packaging
[10:30:56] <Konomi> when I do packgage descritions I feel like attaching to the end "Yeah I don't write descriptions very well"
[10:31:01] <Konomi> Description: Many options for handling power management. <- eg
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[11:08:29] -!- JamesNZ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[11:31:44] <ar> tea++
[11:31:44] <Bender> karma - tea: 228
[11:31:46] <ar> coffee--
[11:31:46] <Bender> karma - coffee: 902
[11:45:47] -!- Konomi has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[11:46:18] -!- KonomiNetbook has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
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[12:07:36] <ar> multikonomi ;)
[12:15:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++
[12:15:09] <Bender> karma - coffee: 903
[12:15:22] <ar> tea++
[12:15:23] <Bender> karma - tea: 229
[12:16:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, Konomi is like Voltron
[12:19:08] <ar> http://www.reddit.com
[12:19:50] <ar> coffee--
[12:19:50] <Bender> karma - coffee: 902
[12:22:48] -!- CoolHand [CoolHand!~CoolHand@njgbfhmuvz.org] has joined #Soylent
[12:23:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++ #nifty
[12:23:47] CoolHand is now known as SoyGuest44045
[12:23:47] <Bender> karma - coffee: 903
[12:24:06] <Konomi> eh
[12:24:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> have a half pound or so of anhydrous caffeine left still
[12:24:51] <Konomi> anyone interested in a power script management package for debian?
[12:24:54] <Konomi> I just made it
[12:25:23] SoyGuest44045 is now known as CoolHand
[12:25:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> would be but i just pulled my laptop over to arch a few months ago
[12:25:36] <ar> tea++
[12:25:36] <Bender> karma - tea: 230
[12:25:42] <ar> ewww, arch
[12:25:47] <ar> they're systemd
[12:26:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, i have hopes they'll move to uselessd when it gets to be a viable alternative though
[12:27:14] <ar> there are too many systemd-fanboys there
[12:27:23] <chromas> uselessd 8 should be coming out soon
[12:27:29] <Konomi> fangirls too ~
[12:27:52] <Konomi> oh there
[12:27:58] <Konomi> I thought you mean her... nevermind ~
[12:28:22] * chromas puts systemd in ar's coffee++
[12:28:34] <ar> coffee--
[12:28:34] <Bender> karma - coffee: 902
[12:28:37] <ar> tea++
[12:28:37] <Bender> karma - tea: 231
[12:29:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++ #because before my first cup is finished != the time to debate coffee with me
[12:29:35] <Bender> karma - coffee: 903
[12:30:08] <Konomi> anyone if anyone is interested works well so far and highly configurable comes iwht a good default conf for laptops
[12:30:56] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - People don’t Recognize Statistically Significant Relationships, but they can Learn - http://sylnt.us - 95%-confidence || Supercar Graveyard - http://sylnt.us - look-on-my-works-ye-mighty-and-despair
[12:31:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> sub it, we're bound to have another user or three who'll dig on it
[12:31:44] <Konomi> sub?
[12:32:02] <chromas> Soylent sub
[12:32:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> submit it as a story
[12:32:11] <Konomi> god no
[12:32:17] * Konomi runs away
[12:32:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> journal then
[12:32:34] <chromas> You can check the anon box
[12:32:38] <Konomi> hmm good idea
[12:33:05] <Konomi> journal I am okay with
[12:33:28] <Popeidol> and then we can submit your journal as a story
[12:33:42] <Popeidol> and bypass the whole 'consent' part
[12:33:56] * TheMightyBuzzard smakes Popeidol
[12:33:56] <Konomi> >.<
[12:35:39] <Popeidol> don
[12:35:50] <Popeidol> don't worry guys, I'm far too lazy to submit a story
[12:35:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> reminds me, something on the main page needs to link to the dynamically generated journals rss feed
[12:37:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> https://soylentnews.org <--- there if any of you want to use it before we get around to linking to it
[12:37:49] <NetCraft> ^ 03SoylentNews Journals
[12:42:22] * Popeidol adds to rss feed
[12:53:40] <Konomi> http://forums.boxedfox.org
[12:53:42] <NetCraft> ^ 03Boxedfoxsoft View topic - pmscripts deb
[12:53:44] <Konomi> will make a story about it later
[12:54:00] <Konomi> well journal thingy
[12:54:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[12:54:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> api work for me
[13:09:05] <ar> http://www.commitstrip.com
[13:09:08] <ar> tea++
[13:09:08] <Bender> karma - tea: 232
[13:09:12] <ar> coffee--
[13:09:12] <Bender> karma - coffee: 902
[13:12:59] <Konomi> http://paste.ofcode.org
[13:13:00] <NetCraft> ^ 03Paste ofCode
[13:13:09] <Konomi> typical function of my package ^^
[13:13:41] <ar> just got a t-shirt from codeclimate guys http://arachnist.is-a.cat :)
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[13:18:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++
[13:18:41] <Bender> karma - coffee: 903
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[13:21:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> dig the shirt
[13:22:33] <Konomi> caffeine++
[13:22:33] <Bender> karma - caffeine: 38
[13:22:58] <Konomi> cool I think what is it?
[13:31:41] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Drug Unlocks Malleable, Fast-Learning, Child-Like State In Adult Brain - http://sylnt.us - My-Back-Pages || People don’t Recognize Statistically Significant Relationships But They Can Learn - http://sylnt.us - 95%-confidence
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[13:33:08] <mattie_p> morning folks
[13:33:15] * Konomi waves
[13:34:53] <mattie_p> Hi Konomi, how is the down under today?
[13:34:54] <ciri> hello mattie_p
[13:35:06] <mattie_p> ~burrito ciri
[13:35:16] <mattie_p> !burrito ciri
[13:35:25] <mattie_p> dammit, can't remember how that works
[13:35:26] * chromas offers mattie_p a $
[13:35:29] <mattie_p> need more coffee
[13:35:34] <mattie_p> $burrito ciri
[13:35:34] * aqu4 chucks a nasty, rotten burrito at ciri
[13:35:40] <chromas> ciri++
[13:35:40] <Bender> karma - ciri: -13
[13:35:41] <Konomi> okay just finished making a package for power management in nix
[13:35:42] <mattie_p> thanks, chromas!
[13:36:07] <chromas> need a bot that reminds us which bots have which commands :)
[13:36:11] <mattie_p> lol
[13:36:11] <ciri> lol that's funny!
[13:36:41] <mattie_p> pretty soon we'll need about 3 command prefixes for the bots, like #$!wedgie ciri
[13:36:49] <Konomi> heh x.x
[13:40:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> morning, mattie_p
[13:41:11] <mattie_p> hey, TheMightyBuzzard
[13:41:20] <chromas> gtk--
[13:41:20] <Bender> karma - gtk: -2
[13:42:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> why for ya gotta hate on the gtk?
[13:43:17] <chromas> The file dialogs
[13:43:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> ahh, QT user
[13:43:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> see, i can't stand the QT file dialogs
[13:43:51] <chromas> I go to save: dialog pops up, has the filename field selected, only that field isn't actually active so typing starts a search in the list of files
[13:51:56] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Human Clinical Trials for Drug that Reverses Diabetes in Animal Models - http://sylnt.us - liverbetterst
[13:57:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> sweet
[13:58:04] <ar> qt++
[13:58:04] <Bender> karma - qt: 3
[13:58:06] <ar> gtk--
[13:58:06] <Bender> karma - gtk: -3
[14:35:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> crazy-assed journal feed code
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[15:51:25] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Berlin, Where Tech Activists go to Escape the NSA - http://sylnt.us - is-one-safe-anywhere?
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[16:01:26] <nick> g'day
[16:04:48] <mattiep> hi nick
[16:04:48] <ciri> hello mattiep
[16:05:02] <CoolHand> g'day
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[16:20:53] <nick> how goes things, mattie_p?
[16:21:20] <mattie_p> pretty good, nick, you?
[16:21:36] <nick> also to CoolHand, assuming ciri isn't spawning new bots. :p
[16:22:29] <nick> trying not to complain, heh
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[16:47:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> http://tmbvm.ddns.net (uid and limit are optional)
[17:00:16] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Military 'Near Misses' Rise Dramatically Between Russia And Nato - http://sylnt.us - same-conflicts,-different-century
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[17:33:03] <Blackmoore> coffee++
[17:33:03] <Bender> karma - coffee: 904
[17:33:06] <Blackmoore> mornin
[17:34:40] <nick> afternoon
[17:35:32] <Blackmoore> how's it goin today?
[17:36:01] <nick> it's going
[17:36:03] <nick> sup with you
[17:39:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++
[17:39:32] <Bender> karma - coffee: 905
[17:39:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> mornin, Blackmoore, afternoon, nick.
[17:47:21] <Blackmoore> eh, working late shift. drinking coffee
[17:47:25] <Blackmoore> coffee++
[17:47:26] <Bender> karma - coffee: 906
[17:47:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> is good for ya, puts hair on stuff
[17:48:19] <Blackmoore> so i managed to get a linode started, and get the minecraft server on to it. and now I'm stuck with the startup script.
[17:48:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> hrm...
[17:48:49] <Blackmoore> linode gives me a script to use. but the damn thing wont run.
[17:49:00] <Blackmoore> the server does work
[17:49:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> script for the mc daemon?
[17:50:05] <Blackmoore> yeah that script the one that should execute the java [conditions] filename...
[17:50:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> did you make it executable?
[17:50:51] <Blackmoore> names it run.sh set the permissions to execute.
[17:51:03] <Blackmoore> it's the script itself.
[17:51:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod, what's the script read?
[17:51:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> pastebin or something
[17:52:36] <Blackmoore> http://paste.ofcode.org
[17:52:37] <NetCraft> ^ 03Paste ofCode
[17:52:41] <Blackmoore> is the example code
[17:53:02] <Blackmoore> it's barfing on the lines 2,3
[17:54:11] <Blackmoore> and i'm looking at that and i'm not getting it.
[17:54:26] <Blackmoore> why does it need to do that?
[17:54:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> hang on
[17:56:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> it doesn't need to do that. it in fact needs to do something entirely else
[17:57:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> unless you have that script in the minecraft server directory
[17:58:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> it should work if you put the script in your minecraft directory and run it though
[17:58:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> if you want it as an init script that's something entirely else
[17:59:33] <Blackmoore> hmm. that makes sense. yeah. i get it now.
[18:00:26] <Blackmoore> I'm new to the setup and havent really played in command line in a long time
[18:00:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[18:00:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> good practice then
[18:01:07] <Blackmoore> I bet i was suppoed to put the files into a specific directory, and the damn things are basically in hom for the user.
[18:01:26] <Blackmoore> yeah. good practice
[18:01:42] <Blackmoore> ok now i know how to fix the script.
[18:02:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> it doesn't really need fixed, just put in the proper directory
[18:02:19] <Blackmoore> either or.
[18:02:25] <Blackmoore> but yeah
[18:03:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> really you prolly want it as an init script
[18:04:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> so you don't have to manually launch it every bloody time
[18:05:43] <Blackmoore> yes. that's exactly what i need
[18:06:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> what flavor linux you using and what kind of init?
[18:06:51] <Blackmoore> ubuntu 14
[18:07:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> hrm, that's still upstart, isn't it?
[18:07:51] <Blackmoore> i would have to guess so
[18:08:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> dunno, been over a year since i played with upstart
[18:08:42] <Blackmoore> let me check the wiki
[18:11:12] <Blackmoore> *beats head against wiki*
[18:13:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> manually starting it should be fine for now
[18:15:44] <Blackmoore> yeah.
[18:16:40] <Blackmoore> and for the first go at it it only took me 24 hours. (to figure out my own misteaks, and fix it)
[18:18:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, not bad at all
[18:20:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, you prolly wanna add some tweaks to that java <blah> line
[18:21:16] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Tor Project Mulls How Feds Took Down Hidden Websites - http://sylnt.us - your-help-is-needed
[18:21:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> good start: -server -XX:UseSSE=3 -XX:+UseConcMarkSweepGC -XX:+UseParNewGC -XX:+CMSIncrementalPacing -XX:+AggressiveOpts -XX:ParallelGCThreads=2
[18:21:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> assuming your virtual cpu has at least two cores and can do sse3
[18:21:43] <Blackmoore> i did, more memory for the server, but i still need to get the rest of the paramaters
[18:22:46] <Blackmoore> yes, two core server
[18:22:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> cat /proc/cpuinfo should tell you what you need to know
[18:24:04] <Blackmoore> cool. I cant log into the damn thing while at work ; but I can tackle that later.
[18:26:50] <Blackmoore> then the headache of how to deal with handing out the modpack.
[18:27:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> fun fun fun
[18:27:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> yet another reason vanilla ftw
[18:27:36] <Blackmoore> was so much easier when i was using FTB.
[18:27:56] <Blackmoore> tell the new person to download the launcher, enter a code.
[18:28:39] <Blackmoore> i set up my wife at it was .. ok run this script. then copy these files..
[18:28:57] <Blackmoore> fix these client side mods..
[18:31:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> painful
[18:34:31] <Blackmoore> and shes in the same room.
[18:34:57] <Blackmoore> (it didnt help that i was trying to update the server at the same time)
[18:35:15] <Blackmoore> anyways I'll figure it out.
[18:49:25] <ar> yes, ubuntu14.04 still has upstart
[18:51:51] <ar> tea++
[18:51:51] <Bender> karma - tea: 233
[18:51:53] <ar> coffee--
[18:51:53] <Bender> karma - coffee: 905
[18:58:28] <Blackmoore> it looks like linode gives me a few startup options
[18:59:07] <Blackmoore> the more i think about it the more i want to set up a cron job to shut down, back up and restart say every other day
[19:01:17] <Blackmoore> the damn server will chew up memory if i dont have it reset itself
[19:03:32] <Landon> hah
[19:04:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> server's going to chew up memory regardless. it's capped at how much it can eat though.
[19:27:40] <Blackmoore> true; but i found that if i have it shut down occasionally that it runs better (since garbage collection seems to be the real issue
[19:28:20] <Blackmoore> it's not like I have to worry about uptime
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[19:37:06] <ar> hm
[19:37:49] <ar> i have a vps at linode: http://dpaste.com
[19:37:50] <NetCraft> ^ 03dpaste: 3DZ3Q45 ( Location )
[20:00:30] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Mozilla Introduces First Browser Built for Developers - http://sylnt.us - sophisticated-web-development
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[20:32:05] <swiss> ar: i use buyvm cause cheap~
[20:32:28] <ar> swiss: i use digitalocean for cheap stuff
[20:32:42] <swiss> I pay $3.50 a month for mine
[20:32:53] <swiss> thought about the $15/year one, but decided i wanted more RAM
[20:50:49] <crutchy> coffee++
[20:50:49] <Bender> karma - coffee: 906
[20:54:13] <Landon> https://news.ycombinator.com
[20:54:13] <NetCraft> ^ 03Announcing Soylent 1.2 | Hacker News
[20:54:18] <Landon> bummer, thought this was about us :(
[20:54:40] <crutchy> blackmoore, a bit late to the conversation but i run a cron job eevery midnight that just restarts apache, which recovers all the ram used by my poorly developed php application (that can eat over half a gig of ram in one page generate)
[20:55:14] <crutchy> working on trying to improve this atm
[20:55:36] <crutchy> its a fairly big app that crunches a lot of numbers
[20:55:59] <crutchy> well, not really big compared to other stuff i guess. just big for me
[20:57:12] <nick> i think half a gig of ram in one page makes it kind of big ;)
[20:57:53] <crutchy> prolly more related to amount of data crunched than lines of code though
[20:58:23] <crutchy> looking at changing string array keys into integer keys (using constants)
[20:59:07] <crutchy> when you have 100,000 string keys i guess that would eat some memory
[21:00:00] <nick> one would think so
[21:01:23] <crutchy> when i was originally coding i thought php might have more smarts to automagically do that kind of memory management (store string keys in a memory array and just refer to anywhere they're used by pointer). maybe it does and the memory leak is elsewhere. testing will tell i guess
[21:05:37] <nick> or you could be like mozilla and just leave the memory leaks there for years and years and years
[21:10:24] <crutchy> could do. my boss prolly wouldn't care if i did (it only runs on the company intranet)
[21:10:43] <crutchy> annoys the crap outta me though so i wanna fix it
[21:21:30] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Computer Scientists Say Copyright on APIs Will Stifle Innovation - http://sylnt.us - but-i-thought-copyright-encourages-creativity
[21:22:18] <Blackmoore> yeah crutchy - i would have expecte php to do better. that is a fairly big app
[21:23:21] <Blackmoore> and sure i can throw blame at mojang in my case - but if a restart makes it better. sure i can do that.
[21:23:54] <Blackmoore> (still reading up on cron. looks like it should be there to use)
[21:30:14] <crutchy> lol
[21:30:29] <crutchy> where in america do they pronounce first as "foist"?
[21:30:46] * crutchy is watching loony toons
[21:36:06] <mechanicjay> crutchy: In Hollywood, when they're pretending to sound like their from NYC
[21:37:16] <nick> i would have assumed in america they pronounce first as "USA! USA! USA!"...
[21:38:54] <Blackmoore> Bugs is speaking with a accent that doesnt really exist in the wild
[21:39:09] <Blackmoore> a combo of brookyln and bronx
[21:40:31] <Blackmoore> Elmer is from Mass. but he has a lisp.
[21:43:24] <nick> it's almost as if they're accents are cartoonish!
[21:44:21] <crutchy> it was that big chicken rooster that says "ah say, ah say, ah say.."
[21:45:53] <Blackmoore> http://en.wikipedia.org
[21:45:54] <NetCraft> ^ 04Wiki: 03Foghorn Leghorn
[21:45:57] <crutchy> seems like a disproportionate number of loonyton characters sound like cowboys from the wild west
[21:46:25] <swiss> http://www.newegg.com this mobo is so perfect looking
[21:46:25] <crutchy> i dunno how they dont scare the crap outta little kids the way they scream and carry on
[21:46:51] <crutchy> swiss, it doesn't have tits, so can't be perfect
[21:46:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> crutchy, you forget how bloodthirsty you were as a kid?
[21:47:12] <swiss> crutchy: i'll tape some on
[21:47:51] <crutchy> swiss, how many pcie16 slots?
[21:48:02] * crutchy should just read eh
[21:48:04] <swiss> 0!
[21:48:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> damn son, that's 12 sata ports
[21:48:14] <crutchy> 0!
[21:48:15] <swiss> TheMightyBuzzard: and a quad core that's passively cooled
[21:48:15] <crutchy> ?
[21:48:24] <swiss> all the friggin NAS power you need
[21:48:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[21:48:48] <crutchy> my next mobo is gunna have at least 3 pcie16 slots double-spaced
[21:49:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> mine has two n i only use one of em
[21:49:48] <crutchy> bung another card in there and give a couple more screens a loving home
[21:50:03] <swiss> crutchy: this is a server board, not desky
[21:50:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> would if i had room for more monitors
[21:50:16] <swiss> it's also mITX
[21:50:20] <Blackmoore> sigh. i think i spent that much on my entire system .. excluding the screen.
[21:50:44] <crutchy> needs more cpu grunt to run all the vms you should put on it :D
[21:50:57] <swiss> i don't need toooooo many vms
[21:50:59] <swiss> cause i run jails
[21:51:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, thas a fileserver/nas
[21:51:38] <swiss> TheMightyBuzzard: and torrentserver, and does a bit of stuff like htpc management
[21:51:47] <swiss> debating whether it'll handle plexmediaserver nicely
[21:51:53] <crutchy> only got 4 vms running on the server at work with dual xeon dies and 12gb ram
[21:52:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> really couldn't say. not much atom experience.
[21:52:18] <crutchy> disabled gdm on 2 of the vms to free up resources
[21:52:55] * TheMightyBuzzard smakes crutchy
[21:53:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> they're servers, why they even have X installed?
[21:53:25] <crutchy> cos i'm dumb
[21:53:41] <crutchy> the host still has x running on it :p
[21:53:42] * crutchy hides
[21:54:13] <swiss> crutchy: i will conceed, only USB2.0
[21:54:16] <swiss> so almost perfect
[21:54:30] <swiss> my server at work is barely even in use
[21:54:42] <swiss> with 10 VMs (including one which is a VM host for 6 more VMs)
[21:54:59] <crutchy> saw a youtube of a guy running 6 external screens off a single usb3 port on his lappy
[21:55:05] <swiss> lol
[21:55:10] <crutchy> with videos on 2 of them
[21:55:21] <crutchy> usb3++
[21:55:21] <Bender> karma - usb3: 1
[21:55:41] <crutchy> apparently can do with usb2 as well but not as smooth
[21:56:16] <crutchy> even had his lan coming off it
[21:58:01] <swiss> i think they'll run fine, but latency will kill you
[21:58:14] <crutchy> this looks like a better mobo :D
[21:58:15] <crutchy> http://www.asrock.com
[21:58:16] <NetCraft> ^ 03ASRock > X79 Extreme11
[21:58:46] <crutchy> would blow my entire new computer budget though
[21:59:13] <crutchy> hm. my new computer budget atm is $0, so yeah would definitely :(
[22:01:33] <swiss> lol
[22:01:33] <ciri> HEHEHEHE
[22:01:36] <swiss> not enough sata
[22:02:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> woulda made a good bitcoin mining rig a couple years ago though.
[22:06:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> believe i'm feelin napish
[22:06:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> nap++
[22:06:18] <Bender> karma - nap: 9
[22:06:25] <crutchy> my desktop pyewta is only dual core amd
[22:06:57] <crutchy> mostly just sits on the desk switched off collecting dust lately
[22:08:29] <crutchy> swiss, that server board does look pretty nice. good for racks
[22:08:43] <crutchy> heh. maybe it does have a nice rack somewhere after all :p
[22:09:43] <swiss> lol
[22:09:44] <swiss> :P
[22:12:36] <crutchy> might go nicely in this case: http://www.newegg.com
[22:12:41] <NetCraft> ^ 03iStarUSA D-118-ITX-DT-22 Black Server Case - Newegg.com
[22:15:00] <crutchy> hmm actually to fit 12 3.5" drives you'd need at least a 2U
[22:16:54] -!- mattie_p_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[22:17:26] <nick> crutchy, unless you have some serious magical powers i dont see how you're going to fit that EATX board into an ITX case
[22:27:28] <chromas> http://techcrunch.com
[22:27:29] <NetCraft> ^ 03Coding Education Programs Expand In U.S. As IT Jobs Market Flourishes | TechCrunch ( http://techcrunch.com )
[22:27:56] <chromas> Well, that's the end of the recession. Everyone in the us can be a programmer now
[22:29:39] -!- FunPika [FunPika!~FunPika@Soylent/Staff/Wiki/FunPika] has joined #Soylent
[22:29:39] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v FunPika] by juggler
[22:33:48] <juggs> not if it's cheaper to outsource it overseas or import H1Bs
[22:34:31] <crutchy> nick, sorry was talking about the board that swiss likes
[22:36:18] <crutchy> juggs, yeah i can't imagine US is going to ever be a software development hotspot as long as employees demanding salaries that are orders of magnitude greater than indian programmers
[22:37:06] <crutchy> thas why US software companies are setting up offices in mumbai
[22:38:00] <Landon> setting up office is a lot of work when you can use TC
[22:38:02] <Landon> TCS*
[22:38:31] <juggs> tcs?
[22:38:32] <crutchy> prolly want closer supervision/qc
[22:38:40] <crutchy> teleconference?
[22:38:43] <Landon> juggs: tata consulting services
[22:39:05] <juggs> ahh. in the same bag as wipro
[22:39:25] <Landon> yeurp
[22:39:30] <Landon> I haven't been too impressed with their output :\
[22:39:36] <crutchy> juggs, i don't think he's referring to this: http://interconnectedworld.typepad.com
[22:40:12] <chromas> crutchy: that's tater
[22:40:13] <juggs> Landon, seems to me that managing the outsourcing is more work than not outsourcing ~sigh~
[22:40:23] <chromas> tatas are completely different
[22:40:38] <crutchy> are they brown?
[22:40:58] <chromas> they can be
[22:41:00] <crutchy> now now lets not be tatist
[22:41:22] <Landon> juggs: absolutely
[22:41:40] <Landon> for some tasks I'm sure it's amazing
[22:41:43] <crutchy> juggs, depends how much you outsource
[22:41:44] <Landon> and maybe it's just the people assigned
[22:41:47] <chromas> crutchy: do an image search with safesearch off
[22:41:59] <Landon> but feedback was near impossible, even with a few TCS employees local
[22:42:15] <Landon> and they had their hands pretty much tied by corporate back in india
[22:43:01] <crutchy> omfg. imagine having a board meeting in this shipping container: http://careers.microsoft.com
[22:43:02] <juggs> had similar experiences with outsourced customer service
[22:46:18] <Blackmoore> http://upload.wikimedia.org
[22:46:21] <chromas> crutchy: I sea what they did there
[22:46:31] <crutchy> i work in engineering consultancy. in many cases its easier for us to do the work cos we can churn it out quicker, we have specialist tools and the specialists that know how to get the most out of them /plug
[22:46:52] * chromas hires crutchy's firm
[22:47:12] <crutchy> Microsoft's Department of People Smuggling :p
[22:47:19] <crutchy> http://careers.microsoft.com
[22:47:20] <NetCraft> ^ 03Microsoft Careers: Our Office Locations
[22:47:43] <crutchy> "here... step into our interview room..."
[22:47:57] <crutchy> in our "mubai office"
[22:48:02] <crutchy> *mumbai
[22:48:06] <chromas> I'd never heard of Tata but the name kind of implies outsourcing
[22:48:33] <nick> Tata is a company to watch imho
[22:48:42] <nick> they do a lot of stuff
[22:49:29] <nick> "It encompasses seven business sectors: communications and information technology, engineering, materials, services, energy, consumer products and chemicals. "
[22:50:16] <crutchy> sounds a lot like mahindra
[22:50:30] <nick> they own Jaguar and Land Rover
[22:50:37] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Netflix's Engineering Model: Write Code Really Fast - http://sylnt.us - who-cares-about-quality
[22:50:49] <nick> and apparently the Ritz-Carlton Hotel Company
[22:50:57] <crutchy> http://www.mahindra.com
[22:50:57] <NetCraft> ^ 03Mahindra.com | Rise
[22:51:15] <nick> yeah, i know of mahindra
[22:51:53] -!- nick [nick!~nick@Soylent/Staff/Editor/n1] has parted #Soylent
[22:51:54] <crutchy> they bought out the aircraft ccompany i used to work for
[22:52:01] -!- nick [nick!~nick@Soylent/Staff/Editor/n1] has joined #Soylent
[22:52:01] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v nick] by juggler
[22:52:14] <nick> tata group is like 10x the size of mahindra though
[22:52:39] <nick> tata has apparently $360.32 billion in assets
[22:54:48] <crutchy> yeah saw that in wikipedia. looks big
[22:54:50] <nick> so while tata might well be involved in outsourcing
[22:55:01] <nick> they're also likely to acquire the company that outsources to them
[22:55:11] <ar> "tata" is a polish word for "father"
[22:55:18] <crutchy> more assets than the likes of samsung even
[22:55:41] <crutchy> though looks like a third the revenue of samsung
[22:56:08] <crutchy> wonder what their liabilities are though
[22:56:11] <nick> they're a big player that not many people seem to have heard of, possibly in part because they keep the brand names of the acquisitions they make
[22:56:54] <nick> it's a family run business heh
[22:59:29] <nick> would be quite hard to calculate the liabilities due to the diverse interests and all the different companies
[23:01:38] <nick> and in reality they probably have some protection via the indian gov
[23:01:39] <crutchy> they prolly got a direct line to money from the fed at 0% interest anyway
[23:02:05] <crutchy> that too
[23:02:25] <crutchy> big family businesses there pretty much got the gov wrapped around their little finger
[23:03:31] <nick> well, start picking holes in Tata and you're putting half a million jobs at risk
[23:03:35] <nick> so leave them alone, too big to fail
[23:04:48] <crutchy> if communists came to power they could just acquire the whole show by force
[23:05:11] <crutchy> as much as i'm no fan of communism, i reckon that's the real fear
[23:05:24] <nick> how do you mean
[23:06:41] <crutchy> http://en.wikipedia.org
[23:06:42] <NetCraft> ^ 04Wiki: 03Nationalization
[23:07:37] <nick> i understand nationalization, i was born in the UK!
[23:07:55] <crutchy> lol
[23:08:07] <crutchy> i was a bit confused by your question
[23:08:11] <nick> i'm sure Tata isn't worried about being nationalized, it's not really the Indian way.
[23:08:28] <crutchy> nod
[23:08:30] <nick> i'm sure the government is more worried about not getting stuffed envelopes from the Tata family though
[23:09:26] <nick> here in the UK, we have an interesting new take on nationalization... you nationalize a private business when it fails, pump some taxpayer money into it, and then give it back to private interests when it's viable again
[23:09:37] <crutchy> government prolly doesn't get a cent. politicians personal accounts on the other hand...
[23:09:56] <crutchy> o.0 'give it back'
[23:10:34] <nick> thats how it works now, because private is always better, except when it fails and needs a bailout
[23:10:45] <crutchy> a lot of those 'too big to fail' banks that US and Europe bailed out in 2008 will fail again anyway
[23:10:57] <crutchy> now they're even more levered up than they were
[23:11:01] <nick> then the government is better, only until it's profitable or viable again, then it must be shifted back into private hands before the government ruins it
[23:11:37] <nick> they did some bullshit with the royalmail, after getting goldman sachs to decide what the price was
[23:11:45] <crutchy> governments do ruin things, but giving failing businesses taxpayer money also ruins competition. i wish they wouldn't do it
[23:11:50] <nick> what they sold off was all the good bits, and very few of the liabilities
[23:12:19] <nick> so the government is still on the hook for a lot of the royalmail problems, while the goldman sachs investors get all the assets
[23:12:24] <crutchy> things are pretty shit
[23:12:34] <nick> obviously at a very favourable rate
[23:12:39] <crutchy> no doubt
[23:12:52] <nick> which was all decided off the record on 'gentlemans agreements' that priority investors wouldnt sell straight away
[23:12:56] <crutchy> will be interesting to see what governments do when the next crash comes
[23:13:05] <nick> except they did and made millions and millions in a couple of days
[23:13:34] <nick> but because it was a 'gentlemans agreement' there's nothing anyone can do about it
[23:13:49] <crutchy> governments are too big to fail now
[23:14:03] <crutchy> small government = less influence and corruption
[23:14:28] <nick> it's finding that balance
[23:14:43] <nick> there's no point in having a small government, if it's totally powerless
[23:14:44] <crutchy> a lot of governments are basically corporations now anyway
[23:14:54] <nick> that i will agree with
[23:15:30] <nick> big gov and big corp are pretty much the same problem
[23:15:44] <crutchy> yeah
[23:15:48] <nick> people complain that big gov is all about taking your money for themselves
[23:15:58] <nick> which is literally the proposed purpose of big biz
[23:16:01] <crutchy> although corporations don't get to be a problem without a hand from governments
[23:16:09] <nick> so why people think big corps are any better...
[23:16:22] <nick> well, they havn't because theres always been government
[23:16:29] <nick> saying they wouldn't is wishful thinking
[23:17:06] <nick> because if a corp has a monopoly over resources by whatever means, then it's irrelevant if it's the corp or the gov.
[23:17:25] <crutchy> even things like patents issued by government are a form of monopolization
[23:17:49] <nick> indeed
[23:17:56] <crutchy> resources are a tricky one. i don't get how mining companies can just take stuff
[23:18:11] <crutchy> but then i don't know the answer to that either
[23:18:21] <nick> resources are a tricky one but to me thats where it comes down to, as we need resources for our society.
[23:18:28] <crutchy> yeah
[23:18:38] <crutchy> australia was going to impose a mining tax
[23:18:44] <nick> but through whatever method, if someone ends up with the monopoly on those important resources, through luck or judgement
[23:18:51] <crutchy> nod
[23:18:52] <nick> anyone outside of that group, is pretty fucked.
[23:19:32] <nick> the problem with the mining tax is, they want the companies to pay that tax
[23:19:43] <nick> so in the end, they're still going to mine it, and make a profit on it
[23:20:06] <crutchy> the idea was to give the taxpayer a bit for that
[23:20:19] <crutchy> as far as taxes go, a mining tax almost seems fair
[23:20:29] <crutchy> they could then reduce income tax for workers
[23:20:34] <nick> i dont think it's unfair, but it's not going to really change the situation
[23:20:41] <crutchy> prolly not
[23:20:45] <nick> you might put some cash in your pocket in the short term
[23:20:59] <nick> but in the long term you're still going to be left with the post-mining wasteland
[23:21:04] <nick> which can't be used for much of anything
[23:21:23] <crutchy> and if cost of mining is increased its just gunna be passed on anyway
[23:21:52] <nick> indeed
[23:22:05] <nick> or they will be 'forced' to lower wages
[23:22:05] <crutchy> yeah the mining problem is tricky
[23:22:17] <nick> so they can compete with mines in other countries
[23:22:37] <crutchy> if mines are nationalized, governments would fuck them up
[23:22:47] <nick> the UK solved the mining problem. we put all our eggs in the 'financial services' basket
[23:22:53] <crutchy> lol
[23:22:54] <ciri> HAHAHAHA
[23:23:07] <crutchy> if you guys kept mining you might run out of real estate :p
[23:23:11] <nick> and the country doesn't seem to care all that much
[23:23:15] <nick> that is also true
[23:23:35] <nick> and these days, the cost of the land would probably make it a very unattractive prospect for mining
[23:23:44] <nick> although the gov is really keen on getting fracking going
[23:24:02] <crutchy> thankfully australia was mostly a desert wasteland anyway, and most of our mines are in very inhospitable places
[23:24:21] <nick> for no real good reason, except some very convincing american lobbyists came over to assure them it was a great idea
[23:24:50] <crutchy> fracking is being talked about even here. even though we have no shortage of oil and gas
[23:24:56] <nick> plenty of space for mining in .au
[23:25:38] <nick> there's a lot going on with fracking and i can't see it ending well really
[23:25:44] <crutchy> they were talking about fracking in prime dairy grazing territory. in a fucking national park!
[23:25:57] <nick> but there will no doubt be $500m+ in 'government incentives' for multinationals to start trying their luck
[23:26:03] <crutchy> prolly
[23:26:24] <crutchy> though at least atm aussie has more conservative gov
[23:26:33] <crutchy> lots of cuts being made
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[23:27:00] <nick> cuts here too, but it's all a nonsense anyway
[23:27:13] <nick> it's not changing the situation
[23:27:45] <crutchy> even social program cuts that a lot of US politicians seem to be scared shitless of cutting
[23:28:02] <crutchy> any cuts are good. government spending is very wasteful
[23:28:11] <nick> yeah, but from the UK perspective
[23:28:20] <nick> our government talked about 'retiring' world war 1 debt
[23:28:21] <crutchy> oh yeah
[23:28:24] <nick> and by retiring ww1 debt
[23:28:31] <nick> they mean they got a $250m loan at a better deal
[23:28:35] <crutchy> your biggest problem is the eurozone
[23:28:39] <nick> than the $250m ww1 debt sitting on the books
[23:28:42] <crutchy> euro is gunna fuck the UK
[23:29:06] <nick> our total reliance on 'financial services'
[23:29:13] <nick> is going to fuck us more then the eurozone
[23:29:20] <crutchy> that too
[23:29:40] <nick> the UK government still has debt on its books from the 1800's
[23:29:52] <nick> so any UK government can get fucked when they talk about fiscal responsibility
[23:29:53] <crutchy> i'm kinda on the side of the doomsayers regarding fiat currencies
[23:30:01] <crutchy> though perhaps not as fanatical
[23:30:15] <crutchy> all this money printing is gunna end badly i think
[23:30:22] <nick> and the funny thing is, the debt from the 1800's was a result of a public-private partnership
[23:30:31] <nick> which was created to...
[23:30:33] <nick> reduce the national debt
[23:30:37] <crutchy> lol
[23:31:06] <nick> all the governments have ever done is reduce the deficit
[23:31:11] <nick> which means nothing
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[23:31:46] <crutchy> capitalism is good as long as government stays out of the way and lets markets set values and keeps playing field level. as soon as government puts its hand in anywhere, companies use government favors to flatten their competition
[23:32:04] <nick> UK Financial Plan: 2010, we owe £1Tn ... by 2018 we will owe £1.4Tn
[23:32:12] <nick> and that is the 'fiscally responsible plan'
[23:32:16] <nick> that is the good news.
[23:32:39] <crutchy> nick, yeah 'cuts' seem to not mean much lately. spending needs to be slaughtered perhaps
[23:32:52] <nick> my poitn always was, it never has meant much
[23:33:10] <nick> the goverment is carrying debts from before anyone was alive
[23:33:24] <nick> they're not getting rid of debt, or changin anything
[23:33:30] <nick> they're moving the deckchairs on the titanic
[23:33:33] <crutchy> aussie public debt is reasonably low, but rising steadily
[23:33:35] <nick> because we're so deep in this game
[23:33:56] <crutchy> aussie private debt is more of a problem
[23:33:56] <nick> and there's no way you can expect government to 'keep out of the way of markets'
[23:34:07] <crutchy> they should though
[23:34:20] <nick> how would it help, the solution to me seems to end the same
[23:34:21] <ciri> not sure
[23:34:43] <crutchy> companies are only able to destroy their competition with help from government
[23:34:45] <nick> instead of government, you get business cabals
[23:34:49] <crutchy> nah
[23:34:58] <crutchy> business cabals dont form without gov help
[23:35:13] <nick> whats the evidence for this?
[23:35:14] <crutchy> cos in capitalism, its every man for himself
[23:35:35] <nick> yeah, and a few men get together and go 'how about we look after ourselves, we'll be better off together'
[23:35:59] <crutchy> that's how a business is formed
[23:36:20] <crutchy> but this gets repeated countless times
[23:36:25] <nick> yeah, but it doesn't have to be friendly, reasonable or fair
[23:36:27] <crutchy> and competition emerges
[23:36:32] <nick> monopoly on resources again
[23:36:56] <crutchy> monopolies don't exist in a free market
[23:37:01] <crutchy> its pretty much impossible
[23:37:06] <nick> the problem is, 'pure capitalism' has only ever existed on paper, so as an ideology it's fine, but it's not a sure thing
[23:37:10] <nick> i dont see what stops it
[23:37:31] <crutchy> what stops it is that when you sell something successfully, others will want some skin
[23:37:36] <crutchy> natural human instinct
[23:37:40] <crutchy> (greed)
[23:37:53] <crutchy> so competition emerges from a desire to share in success
[23:38:04] <crutchy> only patents will stop this
[23:38:22] <nick> to sell something you have to have it in the first place
[23:38:32] <nick> you need the resources to create it
[23:38:39] <crutchy> true
[23:38:45] <nick> and you need to have the resources to stop other people stealing it
[23:39:13] <crutchy> in the case of human capital (a resource) you have to pay higher wages than the other guy
[23:39:33] <nick> because my free market says, why put time and effort into it, when you can just use 10% of that to steal it from someone else
[23:39:35] <crutchy> thats why the minimum wage is a farce
[23:40:01] <nick> you watch someone dig in the mines all day, just as he's about to go home you hit him over the head with a shovel and take his hau
[23:40:02] <crutchy> that is true. invention is risky in a free market
[23:40:02] <nick> haul*
[23:41:08] <crutchy> problem with that scenario is what stops someone else from doing the same to him?
[23:41:24] <crutchy> he's digging his own grave
[23:41:26] <nick> nothing, you just have to be the guy with the biggest/most shovels for head hitting
[23:41:46] <crutchy> in free market everyone has same size shovel. only government has bigger
[23:41:59] <nick> until someone invents a bigger shovel
[23:42:11] <crutchy> but then that shovel will be copied too
[23:42:17] <nick> stopping people getting bigger shovels or using 'alternative' methods of wealth creation
[23:42:25] <nick> is stopping the free market
[23:42:58] <nick> the time it takes to copy it, means you can gain a strong local monopoly
[23:43:10] <crutchy> only government can stop people getting bigger shovels. if free market is allowed to be free, we will end up with the biggest shovels the world has ever seen
[23:43:31] <nick> i understand your point, but it is a utopian ideology
[23:43:42] <crutchy> it is. cos governments will never allow free markets
[23:43:43] <nick> and i am someone who is self-employed, runs my own business blah blah blah
[23:44:08] <crutchy> but doesn't mean we shouldn't aim for said utopia :p
[23:44:33] <nick> it's not a utopia i'm aiming for, because with my own experiences in business
[23:44:42] <nick> i'm up against unregulated businesses
[23:44:46] <nick> that will lie cheat and steal
[23:44:49] <nick> and i'm the idiot honest john
[23:45:09] <crutchy> small businesses do succeed though. i work for one
[23:45:24] <nick> and people may well figure out the other businesses lied, cheated and stole; but that doesnt stop the fact they got the money
[23:45:38] <crutchy> no point trying to stop lying cheaters
[23:45:40] <nick> oh indeed, but it's all very much on what industry you're in and the connections you have
[23:45:49] <crutchy> nod
[23:45:49] <nick> indeed, but people love to believe liars
[23:46:07] <nick> and in free markets, there's nothing to stop people lying at all
[23:46:19] <nick> people find out, but after they paid the money and it's too late
[23:46:37] <crutchy> there's not really, but customers are fickle
[23:46:47] <nick> for all the government regulation, there's plenty of business operating beyond the laws and regulations
[23:46:57] <nick> and they're really not doing it for the benefit of the customer or the free market
[23:47:00] <crutchy> if you're the honest john, local people will find out
[23:47:23] <crutchy> customers don't like buying stuff from lying cheating companies
[23:47:35] <crutchy> especially if it may hurt them financially too
[23:47:46] <nick> doesn't matter, if it's a one off purchase, which is where most of my business is
[23:47:52] <nick> by the time you find out it's too late
[23:48:11] <nick> and for every honest person, there's 5 who are not, and they're forever rebranding
[23:48:15] <nick> so they're always ahead of the game
[23:48:19] <crutchy> rotten apples tend to get found out by word of mouth pretty quick
[23:48:29] <crutchy> they're tying their own noose
[23:48:31] <nick> yeah they do, which is why they close the company
[23:48:33] <nick> and form a new one
[23:48:37] <nick> before trading standards catches up
[23:48:59] <crutchy> but then they gotta play catch up
[23:49:15] <crutchy> if they gotta establish a new brand from scratch
[23:49:18] <nick> they do, but they're also sitting on the ££££££ from the previous scam
[23:49:25] <nick> so they have the startup capital
[23:49:29] <crutchy> nod
[23:49:30] <nick> ive been there, i've seen it
[23:49:42] <nick> literally took a week for a competitor of mine to shut down
[23:49:47] <nick> and start up all over with a whole new image
[23:50:04] <nick> they do it every 2 years to keep ahead of trading standards
[23:50:10] <crutchy> customers aren't dumb though. i wouldn't underestimate them
[23:50:11] <nick> and avoid filing any tax returns
[23:50:32] <nick> it very much depends on your industry
[23:51:01] <crutchy> as long as you're in an industry without much government intervention and favoritism, being honest will be your best marketing tool
[23:51:01] <nick> i work with electronic security systems, and the reality isn't a very good sell
[23:51:18] <nick> but fear and promises not meade in the realm of technical possibility does sell
[23:51:35] <nick> made*
[23:51:53] <crutchy> i guess selling security systems does rely on a bit of fear
[23:52:16] <nick> people are all about placebo in this industry, i've had people want to spend almost nothing, but as long as they feel like theyve done something it's ok
[23:52:30] <crutchy> lol
[23:52:30] <ciri> lol damn!
[23:52:42] <nick> "yeah sure i might have a £60k car in the drive, a £5k bicycle, but i dont really want to spend more than £500 on a security system for all of it"
[23:52:48] <nick> is literally how it goes sometimes
[23:52:50] <crutchy> yeah i don't think i'd wanna be in the security system sales game personally
[23:53:20] <nick> it's something that is regulated heavily, but you can operate within it with minimal regulation also
[23:53:23] <crutchy> but having said that, no customer wants to spend heaps of money. everyone's out for a bargain
[23:53:33] <crutchy> its the old 'haggle' thing
[23:53:42] <nick> oh indeed, but they will spend heaps of money on nice stuff
[23:53:47] <crutchy> the best hagglers win :p
[23:53:53] <nick> i dont do haggling, the price is the price
[23:53:59] <nick> if i could offer a better deal, i would
[23:54:07] <nick> if you want a better price, well then the specification has to change
[23:54:21] <crutchy> you just gotta make the customer 'think' they're getting a low price
[23:54:26] <crutchy> that's the art of haggling
[23:54:38] <nick> heh, but this is where we end up facing the multinationals
[23:54:43] <crutchy> '10 for that you must be mad' lol
[23:54:44] <nick> who just go £99*
[23:54:51] <crutchy> yeah multinationals suck
[23:54:55] <nick> and then you dont worry about it, because £99*
[23:54:58] <crutchy> but they're usually sponsored by gov
[23:55:04] <nick> (*plus £35 a month for three years)
[23:55:09] <crutchy> so that aint fair anyway
[23:55:21] <nick> but what they promise for that £35, is actually a load of bs
[23:55:34] <crutchy> when you have a big gov shovel you can whack anyone
[23:56:17] <crutchy> some multinationals are prolly more honest than others
[23:56:25] -!- mechanicjay has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
[23:56:32] <nick> i think it's the people within them
[23:56:35] <juggs> are those the monitored alarm systems nick?
[23:56:41] <crutchy> there are some people out there who are just born for sales
[23:56:52] <nick> juggs, the £35 a month forever is a monitored one yeah
[23:56:59] <nick> but monitored is a waste of time now
[23:57:07] <crutchy> hard part for any employer is finding the right people for the right job
[23:57:17] <nick> since no police response unless you have a Grade3+ system.
[23:57:20] <crutchy> business success doesn't just depend on low prices
[23:57:26] <nick> but they dont tell people that, they just say 'emergency services'
[23:57:29] <nick> (fire)
[23:58:06] <juggs> lol lucky to get police to attend at all for a burglary report afaik
[23:58:06] <ciri> lol damn!
[23:58:19] <nick> that is also true, but in the old days, you did get police response
[23:58:21] <crutchy> nick, maybe you need to hire more chicks with big tits for your sales dept.
[23:58:23] <nick> especially on Panic Buttons
[23:58:50] <nick> i had police turn out to me on jobs a few times when making a panic go off
[23:59:13] <juggs> oops - do they charge for false alarms?
[23:59:30] <nick> not that ive ever seen
[23:59:36] <nick> it used to be 3 strikes and your out
[23:59:43] <nick> you're*
[23:59:52] <nick> 3 false alarms and you wont get response anymore
[23:59:53] <ciri> 4
[23:59:54] <ciri> 5
[23:59:55] <ciri> 6
[23:59:57] <ciri> 7
[23:59:57] <crutchy> as much as big tits sound chauvinistic and sexist, you can't really mess with a tried and tested formula for sales success :D
[23:59:59] <ciri> 8