#Soylent | Logs for 2014-08-19
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[00:10:25] <juggs> Congrats.
[00:11:39] <juggs> editors note sp. s/Habringer/Harbinger/
[00:16:24] <juggs> Subsentient, I read a lot about systemd being monolithic, but as far as I see it's PID 1 is fairly minimal with everything else being brought up as subservient services to it. I'll have to grab a distro that's gone full on systemd and spec it out in a VM I think as the current reporting seems tied up with init diehards and Poettering haters - I've yet to find anything objective.
[00:16:30] * juggs reserves opinion
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[00:20:36] <sea`> I've got systemd on this Fedora system. The most irritating thing about it is that it stores data in some kind of odd binary format, and you need special tools to query it
[00:21:15] <Subsentient> indeed
[00:21:21] <sea`> So there's 'journalctl' and so on for querying the journals. It's really annoying, especially since I haven't figured out how to grep the journals yet
[00:22:30] <Subsentient> heh
[00:22:47] <Subsentient> sea`: You can use Epoch on Fedora.
[00:22:51] <sea`> on top of that, systemd really has a massive reach. It went and modified even the initramfs that the kernel uses, so that before the system even starts, systemd has a dozen things going on. Then the rootfs is mounted, systemd process starts up, dbus comes soon after, a handful of other systemd things start up, and I haven't as yet figured out what happens next
[00:22:59] <Subsentient> http://universe2.us http://universe2.us
[00:23:00] <monopoly> ^ 03The Epoch Init System: A new beginning
[00:23:00] <monopoly> ^ #Epoch Init System Configuration for Fedora 19
[00:23:16] <SpallsHurgenson> god, sounds like the windows registry :)
[00:24:00] <sea`> I tried to write my own init system but I couldn't figure out how to extract the commands that systemd runs from it, so that I could imitate them, and systemd left so much extra junk laying around that even when I ran my own custom init, systemd-related processes still somehow managed to start themselves (presumably from the initramfs)
[00:25:23] <juggs> SpallsHurgenson, gconf and dconf were already going registry-alike.
[00:25:44] <SpallsHurgenson> always chasing after Microsoft :)
[00:26:06] <arti> you too shall see the might and beauty of a centralized configuration system
[00:26:16] <arti> don't touch me you filthy casual
[00:26:29] <juggs> Binary logging format is stupid. But I ~think~ systemd has an option to revert to plain text logs - for now at least. I may have imagined I read that of course.
[00:26:50] <arti> but think of all the bits you'll save!
[00:27:19] <SpallsHurgenson> thank god, what with the shortage of RAM and disk space all modern computers face these days :)
[00:27:37] <arti> exactly
[00:27:46] <sea`> :( I spent my saved bits on a jpeg file.
[00:27:56] * sea` sobs.
[00:29:11] <juggs> What worries me is the number of higher level processes that are embracing things like systemd-logind as pre-requisite to work at all. That gives me a bad feeling. Maybe misplaced.
[00:29:46] <sea`> The way that systemd is reimplementing common system services (timers, messaging, etc.), it's only a matter of time before the display manager is a part of it, too, then the httpd, and the-oh, wait, systemd already has an httpd built in
[00:29:49] <juggs> !todo don't believe the hype, grab a systemd distro and wrestle it
[00:29:49] <Bender> todo item 4 added
[00:29:56] <SpallsHurgenson> that's why I stick with good ol' DOS :)
[00:30:02] <juggs> lol
[00:30:03] <ciri> it's not that funny :)
[00:30:31] * juggs pets ciri - purely to annoy Subsentient :D
[00:32:14] <Subsentient> sea`: What language were you writing in?
[00:32:15] <juggs> SpallsHurgenson, I hope you have those NDIS2000 driver backed up well :)
[00:32:26] <SpallsHurgenson> it
[00:32:31] <SpallsHurgenson> s on a floppy disk :)
[00:32:46] <juggs> all good then
[00:33:20] <Subsentient> sea`: Copying systemd to write your init system is the wrong approach. Come up with an idea of what you think an init system should be, and create it. That's what I did with Epoch.
[00:37:13] <sea`> I actually just want as much of things to be manual as possible. I'll take a pid 1 that loops and takes care of orphaned processes, but other than that, it should run maybe 3 commands to start up my terminal and login process and get out of the way. I'll start the rest from my .profile, and other daemons I can start manually if I feel like it.
[00:38:32] <sea`> networking, audio, mounted filesystems, all of that should be manually started, and if it ever goes down for any reason, I really don't want something starting it up again. I want things to /stop/ so that I can notice and get to the bottom of it right away
[00:38:35] * SpallsHurgenson is reminded of a joke: https://www.google.com
[00:38:55] <SpallsHurgenson> erm... I meant the result, not the search http://www.freebsd.cz :)
[00:38:57] <monopoly> ^ 03JOKE: daemon
[00:40:16] <Subsentient> sea`: You would love Epoch then.
[00:40:38] <sea`> wow hahaha
[00:40:44] <Subsentient> It doesn't support mounting, networking, or any of that BS. It does, however, have impressive service management facilities
[00:40:53] <sea`> I plan to swap from fedora to gentoo in a bit
[00:41:12] <Subsentient> sea`: Hmm, interested in spinning up a first-class Epoch powered distro?
[00:41:40] <sea`> as long as it runs emacs I won't even notice.
[00:41:48] <Subsentient> lol you'll need to compile it
[00:42:11] <Subsentient> https://www.dropbox.com
[00:42:11] <sea`> I know someone that's working on an embedded distro named ProteanOS, though, it's a source-based fully libre/free software distro. You could put epoch in there, too
[00:42:11] <monopoly> ^ 03Dropbox - 404
[00:42:16] <Subsentient> that 404 is a loe.
[00:42:17] <Subsentient> lie*
[00:42:38] <Subsentient> sea`: True. Epoch is public domain, might be a good fit.
[00:42:43] <Subsentient> Can you connect me?
[00:43:24] <sea`> Yeah let me see here..
[00:43:32] <sea`> okay, irc.freenode.net, #proteanos-devel
[00:43:40] <sea`> or #proteanos-dev, I can't rememeber. Possibly just #proteanos
[00:43:48] <sea`> You're looking for user 'pehjota'
[00:51:04] <sea`> sublinux-2?
[00:52:00] <Subsentient> sea`: the homebrew OS I run
[00:52:02] <Subsentient> I am typing from it
[00:53:28] <paulej72> !uid
[00:53:28] <Bender> The current maximum UID is 4639, owned by pvanhoof
[00:54:19] <sea`> Got it. Is it based on anything? There should really be a list of 'characteristics' of a distro that you can just list out
[00:54:30] <Subsentient> sea`: It's based on nothing.
[00:54:52] <Subsentient> It's a source-built i586-compatible distro using Epoch Init System 1.1.x and XFCE 4.11 (unstable 4.12)
[00:55:01] <Subsentient> zʎxʍʌnʇsɹbdouɯ1ʞظıɥbɟǝpɔqɐ
[00:55:25] <sea`> Well it's got the linux kernel, right? V3+ probably, Epoch init, XFCE 4.11, hmm..what about package managers and that sort of thing? Does it have any of that? what's the filesystem structure? Is it like debian or knoppix or ?
[00:55:48] <Subsentient> sea`: No package managers, but it has a really fantastic toolchain. It uses Linux kernel 3.14
[00:55:59] <sea`> I really think we should standardize a 'characteristic' for distros, seriously. So that we can sum up all of the best features of a distro in one big paragraph/table
[01:01:52] <NCommander> .deop aqu4
[01:01:52] -!- mode/#Soylent [-o aqu4] by juggler
[01:16:16] * mrcoolbp tries to figure out how to enable threads in Thunderbird
[01:18:27] <SpallsHurgenson> view->threads?
[01:18:31] <sea`> thunderbird --be-parallel --num-threads n --disable-single-threaded --use-threads --concurrency-factor n --be-concurrent --with-pthread ?
[01:18:56] <SpallsHurgenson> oh, those threads :)
[01:19:46] <mrcoolbp> SpallsHurgenson: view -> threads seems to only let me filter by types of threads (read, unread, etc.)
[01:21:34] <mrcoolbp> SpallsHurgenson: got it
[01:21:41] <mrcoolbp> it's "Sort By"
[01:21:50] <SpallsHurgenson> that's what I meant :)
[01:21:53] <mrcoolbp> ah
[01:21:56] <mrcoolbp> thanks Spalls!@
[01:23:05] <SpallsHurgenson> actually, I originally wrote "view-> sortby" then said, "hey, let me make sure", opened thunderbird and saw the threads menu item and thought I was wrong :)
[01:23:25] <SpallsHurgenson> I must learn to trust my instincts
[01:23:38] <SpallsHurgenson> just like my jedi master keeps telling me :)
[01:28:04] <mrcoolbp> Patience young padawan
[01:28:18] <mrcoolbp> Guys, listen up, juggs has a big announcement
[01:28:23] <mrcoolbp> juggs: = )
[01:28:27] <SpallsHurgenson> oooh!
[01:28:31] * SpallsHurgenson is all ears
[01:30:18] * SpallsHurgenson is quivering with anticipation
[01:30:49] * juggs milks the anticupation
[01:30:52] <sea`> An announcement? Ooh
[01:31:06] * sea` dislocates his head and rolls it close to juggs to hear better
[01:31:23] <SpallsHurgenson> wow, that's the second time I've seen somebody do that today
[01:31:38] <juggs> apparently I am trusted with announcements now, the world must have titledon its axis
[01:32:06] <sea`> It has tilted by about 26 degrees if I remember correctly. We should tilt it more and see what happens
[01:32:20] <sea`> 23 degrees
[01:32:21] * juggs clears throat
[01:32:52] * SpallsHurgenson crosses his fingers and hopes, "No access to soylent except to paid subscribers!" :)
[01:33:05] * mrcoolbp whacks Spalls
[01:33:38] <SpallsHurgenson> hey, if juggs isnt' gonna announce, I'm just gonna have to make things up to keep myself amused :)
[01:34:19] <juggs> :) nothing like edging Spalls
[01:34:28] <juggs> tease tease and tease some more
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[01:37:43] <mrcoolbp> juggs: are we gonna tell 'em or what?
[01:38:09] <SpallsHurgenson> ohmigosh, you two are getting married!
[01:38:23] <mrcoolbp> Yes!
[01:38:26] <mrcoolbp> Don't tell my wife
[01:39:36] <SpallsHurgenson> you're right; it's none of her business!
[01:41:01] <juggs> Unaccustomed to public speaking as I am ~ahem~
[01:42:07] <juggs> The Soylent Swag store is open for overly keen early adopters willing to provide feedback. :D
[01:42:34] <SpallsHurgenson> Yay
[01:42:52] <juggs> We'll call it the release-1 as that other word is verboten.
[01:43:12] <SpallsHurgenson> but where would I find this mythical hoard?
[01:43:46] <juggs> You would find it by hitting me up with a PM SpallsHurgenson - and thanks for your question!
[01:44:13] <SpallsHurgenson> oooh, invite only! how swanky! :)
[01:44:24] <mrcoolbp> sooooooo exclusive
[01:45:31] <juggs> SpallsHurgenson, if you're not on the list you ain't coming in!! And scarily I am the bouncer on the door an I'm pissed off :D
[01:45:52] <juggs> It's as exclusive as it gets
[01:47:05] <SpallsHurgenson> too classy for my taste :)
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[01:57:43] <juggs> OK Spalls - down and dirty version http://www.zazzle.com* (yes the * is deliberate) let us know what you think
[01:57:44] <monopoly> ^ 03Soylentnews | Zazzle.com Store
[01:58:24] <sea`> zazzle.
[01:58:31] <SpallsHurgenson> where are the imprinted condoms?
[01:59:18] <juggs> SpallsHurgenson, would you like the text raised to provide extra stimulation?
[01:59:47] <juggs> Brings another meaning to "simulated by soylent news" :D
[02:00:04] <SpallsHurgenson> it's a bit heavy on the whitespace.... and the color white in general
[02:00:26] <juggs> Agreed
[02:01:52] * SpallsHurgenson checks out "home and pets" and is disappointed he can't get a soylent-branded cat
[02:01:52] <juggs> There are limited options when trying to get this kind of thing set up with decent shipping coverage.
[02:02:00] <juggs> lol
[02:02:00] <ciri> HEHEHEHE
[02:03:06] <SpallsHurgenson> all that bright white makes the portable speakers look grungy in comparison
[02:03:19] <juggs> I'd be happy to breed a cat so the fur patterns read Soylent - less so going heavy with the hot iron variety.
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[02:04:15] <SpallsHurgenson> there is a "designer's tip" on the laptop sleeve page that you probably want to delete :)
[02:05:18] <mrcoolbp> Feedback on the store please: suggestions@soylentnews.org
[02:05:29] <juggs> SpallsHurgenson, re the speakers,I see your point, but is probably accurate as it is printed on the mesh in front of the speakers - the image looks grainy though
[02:05:32] <SpallsHurgenson> wait... no t-shirts? no hoodies? no ties with flashing LEDs that spell out the website's name :)
[02:05:50] <SpallsHurgenson> juggs: the picture itself is probably fine, it just looks bad in comparison
[02:06:31] <SpallsHurgenson> oh, and no beer stein.
[02:07:12] <SpallsHurgenson> seriously, nice start but you gotta add more color. I feel like I'm in that white room prison from THX1138 :)
[02:07:22] <juggs> SpallsHurgenson, pick a shirt then find the "See all styles" link - there you will find all manner of things
[02:07:45] <juggs> It's not immediately obvious
[02:08:32] <SpallsHurgenson> oh, I had to go back a few steps... I don't think the clothing section even showed up at first
[02:08:49] <juggs> The Beer stein is held back for specials of course.
[02:09:33] <SpallsHurgenson> (I wonder if I can do a "Bobby);DROP TABLE Products" on the custom-text mug :)
[02:09:59] <juggs> Yeah it's not ideal - but it's either as it is now or list every single style individually - no-one really had the energy for that for the first cut.
[02:10:29] <juggs> SpallsHurgenson, You likely can.
[02:10:53] <SpallsHurgenson> no, I mean, I wonder how well Zazzle sanitizes their input? :)
[02:11:04] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Al Jazeera Gouging Gore - http://sylnt.us - I-can-call-you-Betty
[02:13:34] <juggs> Who knows. Feel free to try, but bear in mind it only gets a commit on confirmation of purchase :D xD
[02:16:59] <SpallsHurgenson> wow, haxoring can get expensive :)
[02:21:00] <juggs> We like to call it rate limiting. :) That and a Western Union hand off via cloned cards and a few mules in war torn eastern european states. It's not expensive if you skim every transaction down the line :P
[02:22:29] <juggs> damn ... really must remember to disengage fingers from dastardly plan to run the world :D
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[02:34:10] <SpallsHurgenson> anyway, nice job. hope the money starts rolling in and you can all retire by age 25 :)
[02:35:33] * TheMightyBuzzard yawns
[02:35:52] <juggs> fook - way too late for me then SpallsHurgenson
[02:36:17] * juggs pops a worm in Buzzards beak
[02:36:17] <SpallsHurgenson> well, I was excluding you from that well-wishing anyway, juggs :) :)
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[02:37:15] <juggs> oh, nice.
[02:38:10] <juggs> now I'm on Spalls shitcard-list this year ~shrugs~
[02:39:00] <SpallsHurgenson> just arrange for prices to show up as double everytime I visit the store :)
[02:39:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> sounds reasonable to me
[02:39:50] <juggs> SpallsHurgenson, thanks for taking the time to nose about the store. We need some external eyes on it.
[02:40:49] <SpallsHurgenson> it's a good store, has the usual selection of stuff. Nice to see the soylogo everywhere. Just for the love of god add some color :)
[02:41:00] * SpallsHurgenson suggests making everything an eye-blistering red :)
[02:42:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> #1c1c1c
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[02:43:21] <SpallsHurgenson> too grey (but not enough gray)
[02:43:56] <juggs> You see at this point I think it is a crud store because we've been so blinkered choosing a store and reworking the products and images over and over. It is good to get some objective feedback. (yes I hate the word "feedback" but right now I can't think of a more suitable word)
[02:44:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> juggs, constructive bitching
[02:46:19] <SpallsHurgenson> it won't win any awards or blow anyone's socks off; it's function over form. "Here are our products" it says.
[02:46:24] <SpallsHurgenson> but that's what geeks like :)
[02:47:25] <SpallsHurgenson> it is the antithesis of beta :)
[02:47:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> SpallsHurgenson, truth. which is why if i ever get time again, i'll be designing a green on black, terminal-looking theme.
[02:50:02] <SpallsHurgenson> add a secret command-line mode :)
[02:50:28] <juggs> TheMightyBuzzard, I miss constructive bitching - I never gave a shit if people tore my efforts to pieces as long as they gave a few pointers as to why. That's rebuildable. Treading on eggshells is not productive.
[02:51:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod. if it helps me do my thang better, bitch away.
[02:51:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> except for poutine
[02:51:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> poutine--
[02:51:24] <Bender> karma - poutine: -353
[02:52:38] <SpallsHurgenson> his name, spoken thrice in succession, summons the beast from his abysall pit
[02:55:08] <juggs> as unpopular as they are, I never saw them kicked. So it should be. omargerrd - I'm going to be branded a hippy suggesting all should be heard. ~shrug~
[02:55:09] <SpallsHurgenson> or perhaps it doesn't
[02:55:32] * SpallsHurgenson checks the Trollinomicon again
[02:55:52] <juggs> good luck with that
[02:56:10] * juggs fades from existence
[02:58:03] <JamesNZ> What's poutine?
[02:58:14] <JamesNZ> Or, who, rather.
[02:59:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> JamesNZ, resident troll of all things SN
[02:59:58] <JamesNZ> TheMightyBuzzard: Ah.
[03:00:26] <SpallsHurgenson> although at least his trolls were marginally interesting, unlike some others I could mention :)
[03:01:16] <mrcoolbp> TheMightyBuzzard: hmm, green on black...
[03:01:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> some of the stuff he said was even dead on but said in the least pleasant way possible
[03:02:18] <JamesNZ> Is he still active?
[03:02:28] <mrcoolbp> not really
[03:02:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> ^^
[03:02:55] <JamesNZ> Phew :P
[03:13:38] <mrcoolbp> JamesNZ: it was actually interesting cause as TMB put it:
[03:13:54] <mrcoolbp> "although at least his trolls were marginally interesting, unlike some others I could mention :)
[03:14:01] <mrcoolbp> actually it was spalls
[03:14:02] <mrcoolbp> sorry
[03:14:59] <SpallsHurgenson> that's okay, I'm just happy to participate :)
[03:15:41] <JamesNZ> mrcoolbp: Ah.
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[03:17:45] <mrcoolbp> it was put better by TMB actually: " some of the stuff he said was even dead on but said in the least pleasant way possible"
[03:17:52] <SpallsHurgenson> awww
[03:17:52] <mrcoolbp> perfect description
[03:18:26] <SpallsHurgenson> I recall him as badmouthing every effort the soylent team made while they were putting the site together, insisting he could have managed it much better
[03:19:15] <SpallsHurgenson> however - despite some obvious talent (although perhaps not to the degree he boasted) - he never offered to help, preferring just to moan from the sidelines
[03:19:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> we offered to let him show us how
[03:19:37] <mrcoolbp> yup.
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[03:23:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> nite folks. my old is catching up to me.
[03:24:25] <mrcoolbp> lol, g'night TheMightBuzzard
[03:24:34] <mrcoolbp> ^y
[03:24:41] <mrcoolbp> meh.
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[03:24:51] <JamesNZ> \o TheMightyBuzzard
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[04:30:50] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - C++ 14 Ratified - http://sylnt.us - (C++)++
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[05:59:25] <Konomi> net connection must be horrible in space
[06:02:10] <arti> :D
[06:04:03] * chromas peeks at submission queue; hangs head
[06:15:36] * JamesNZ cracks his whip at chromas
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[06:27:34] <chromas> Has been a while since I last made a faulty submission
[06:35:50] <Subsentient> $part
[06:35:50] <aqu4> Ok. Assuming you mean this channel.
[06:35:51] -!- aqu4 [aqu4!~aqu4bot@universe2.us/ircbot/aqu4] has parted #Soylent
[06:36:55] * Subsentient kicks ciri
[06:42:29] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Scrabble Champ Wins with Vowel Movements - http://sylnt.us - word-play
[06:43:10] <Subsentient> Bender: s/vo/bo/g
[06:43:10] <exec> <Subsentient> <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Scrabble Champ Wins with Vowel Movements - http://sylnt.us - word-play
[06:43:17] <Subsentient> Bender: s/o/bo/g
[06:43:17] <exec> <Subsentient> <Bender> [SboylentNews] - Scrabble Champ Wins with Vbowel Mbovements - http://sylnt.us - wbord-play
[06:43:23] <Subsentient> Bender: s/o/bo/g
[06:43:24] <exec> <Subsentient> <Bender> [SboylentNews] - Scrabble Champ Wins with Vbowel Mbovements - http://sylnt.us - wbord-play
[06:43:32] <Subsentient> Bender: s/Vo/Bo/g
[06:43:32] <exec> <Subsentient> <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Scrabble Champ Wins with Bowel Movements - http://sylnt.us - word-play
[06:43:37] <Subsentient> there.
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[07:01:40] -!- Flotsam has quit [Client Quit]
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[07:14:46] <crutchy> thanks jamesnz
[07:49:17] <crutchy> coffee++
[07:49:17] <Bender> karma - coffee: 626
[08:00:09] Space_Man_____ is now known as Space_Man
[08:00:56] <crutchy> ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
[08:01:01] <crutchy> he
[08:07:24] <swiss> just bought the chromebook off woot
[08:07:32] <swiss> excitement intensifies
[08:08:17] <crutchy> i've heard the new ones are pretty good
[08:08:46] <swiss> I loved the chromebook 11
[08:08:51] <swiss> this is the chromebook 14
[08:08:57] <crutchy> lol
[08:08:58] <ciri> HEY! don't laugh at me
[08:09:28] <crutchy> similar to chrome versioning
[08:09:40] <crutchy> no minors
[08:09:58] <crutchy> cheesy_pasta++
[08:09:58] <swiss> huh?
[08:09:58] <Bender> karma - cheesy_pasta: 1
[08:10:12] <swiss> oh, it's screen size
[08:10:20] <crutchy> ah. oops :p
[08:10:24] <swiss> unfortunately i didn't think about the fact i might prefer a 11"
[08:10:36] <swiss> WOOT STRIKES MY IMPULSE BUYING TENDANCIES AGAIN!
[08:10:36] <swiss> :P
[08:10:43] <crutchy> 14" is a nice size screen for a lappy
[08:10:50] <swiss> yeah, but i have a 14" lappy
[08:11:00] <swiss> honestly, it was the free 200MB of data every month that really pulled me in
[08:11:03] <crutchy> ah. so you after something bit smaller
[08:11:09] <crutchy> oh
[08:11:17] <crutchy> 200mb isn't much though
[08:11:28] <swiss> it's enough for how often i'm outside of wifi range
[08:11:40] <crutchy> true
[08:11:50] <crutchy> and can't complain if its free :D
[08:12:22] <swiss> i mean, i'll use it when waiting to pick up my sister at school
[08:12:32] <swiss> that's literally the only time I can think of that I'd be outside of wifi range
[08:12:44] <swiss> well, that i'd be outside of wifi range and want to use a laptop
[08:13:05] <swiss> i only use around 200MB/month on my phone
[08:13:47] <crutchy> but you must be connected at all times to receive a constant stream of bullsh.. i mean useful updates from all your fb weir... i mean 'friends'
[08:14:24] <swiss> lol
[08:14:25] <ciri> hehehe
[08:14:33] <swiss> i have the messanger app installed, but not the actual FB app
[08:15:39] <swiss> i guess i'll get to test the speakers on this thing....
[08:15:43] <swiss> the chromebook 11 did speakers right
[08:15:55] <swiss> they were, by far, the best laptop speakers I'd ever heard
[08:16:28] <swiss> ugh, this one has a fan
[08:16:38] <swiss> tempted to cancel the order
[08:16:57] <crutchy> is it more powerful than a tablet?
[08:17:06] * crutchy isn't familiar with chromebooks
[08:17:39] <swiss> cancelled it
[08:17:42] <swiss> some of them are
[08:17:56] <swiss> it's just an OS, so people make different laptops with different power outputs
[08:18:05] <crutchy> i tend to avoid sites like futurlec.com and sparkfun.com
[08:18:12] <swiss> the chromebook 11 is less powerhungry than your phone probably
[08:18:12] <crutchy> cos i get very tempted
[08:18:22] <swiss> i bought from sparkfun recently
[08:18:41] <crutchy> very dangerous site for my bank balance :p
[08:18:46] <swiss> got an FM module
[08:18:54] <crutchy> ooh
[08:18:57] <swiss> i just make more money to compensate
[08:19:09] <crutchy> i got a pay rise today :D
[08:19:14] <swiss> i got one last week :D
[08:19:18] <swiss> i get another in a month!
[08:19:26] <crutchy> pay_rises++
[08:19:26] <Bender> karma - pay_rises: 1
[08:19:35] <swiss> converting_to_salary++
[08:19:35] <Bender> karma - converting_to_salary: 1
[08:20:10] <swiss> yeah, i got the module so that i can continue in my plan to make my rpi replace the entire radio in my car
[08:20:26] <crutchy> ah
[08:20:35] <crutchy> haven't got into the pi phenomenon
[08:20:45] <crutchy> wold be nice to though
[08:20:57] <swiss> the pi is just a mini linux computer
[08:21:00] <swiss> with gpio
[08:21:25] <swiss> everyone acting like it's special... it isn't. It's just convenient
[08:22:16] <swiss> i'm off to bed
[08:22:27] <swiss> gotta show up for my hourly rate till the end of next month
[08:23:23] <crutchy> night matey
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[08:33:48] <ar> swiss: that's not a good idea. the hardware's quite flaky
[08:34:12] <ar> swiss: as in, it tends to hang, or network & usb controller hang
[08:36:42] * crutchy would like to get a sheevaplug
[08:36:59] <crutchy> prolly never will though :/
[08:38:30] <ar> crutchy: i've had openrd-client. it has the same cpu/chipset stuff
[08:38:38] <ar> crutchy: it's sooooooooo sloooooow
[08:39:26] <crutchy> yeah. seems like they would be. router-level stuff eh?
[08:39:52] <ar> yup
[08:41:05] <crutchy> maybe i should just put linux on my old galaxy s2. that might make something small with a little more grunt
[08:41:59] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Download Wrappers and Unwanted Software are Pure Evil - http://sylnt.us - wolf-in-sheep's-clothing
[08:42:55] <crutchy> hmm. is that really news?
[08:50:24] <NCommander> Yeah
[08:50:37] * NCommander just hilighted that in what will be a letter for the community at large
[08:50:43] <NCommander> On consistency :-/
[08:51:13] <crutchy> we are consistently bonkers
[08:58:24] -!- mth has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[09:06:13] * Subsentient kicks ciri
[09:11:00] * NCommander is at 1731 words
[09:11:00] <NCommander> yay
[09:11:02] <NCommander> -_-;
[09:11:10] <crutchy> $burrito aqu4
[09:11:17] <crutchy> aww :(
[09:11:38] <crutchy> writing war and peace ncommander?
[09:12:13] <crutchy> some of my reports for work are 100+ pages, but thankfully an app generates most of it :p
[09:14:50] -!- SirFinkus [SirFinkus!~SirFinkus@l-64-313-06-125.hsd0.wa.comcast.net] has joined #Soylent
[09:18:12] <crutchy> anyone got any tips for a decent hypervisor?
[09:24:36] <Konomi> with the subscription system is it like donations for SN?
[09:25:41] <crutchy> you get a free w32/cupcake
[09:26:43] <crutchy> i was checking out the swag today and really wanted to get a keyring or a coffee++ mug but i don't get paid till late tomorrow. i might still get one maybe
[09:27:14] <crutchy> gotta get in before the wife goes shopping
[09:29:39] <crutchy> how you been anyway konomi?
[09:34:37] <NCommander> crutchy, something like that
[09:34:53] <NCommander> crutchy, the store went live?
[09:35:11] <crutchy> yeah i read in the backlog
[09:35:25] <crutchy> juggs/mrcoolbp announced
[09:36:01] <crutchy> http://www.zazzle.com*
[09:36:04] <monopoly> ^ 03Soylentnews | Zazzle.com Store
[09:36:44] <crutchy> a little pricey, but i'm a cheapskate
[09:38:16] <Popeidol> I wonder which of those shirt models NCommander is
[09:38:39] -!- mth [mth!wlnfgdiy@88.159.sz.jxm] has joined #Soylent
[09:42:13] <NCommander> -_-;
[09:42:16] <NCommander> k
[09:46:36] <crutchy> hmm dunno if i like forecast.io :/
[09:46:53] <crutchy> nice website to use in a browser though
[09:47:53] <crutchy> someone else's bot can have the weather forecast feature
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[10:01:50] -!- exec [exec!~exec@709-27-2-01.cust.aussiebb.net] has joined #Soylent
[10:14:45] -!- aqu4 [aqu4!~aqu4bot@universe2.us/ircbot/aqu4] has joined #Soylent
[10:14:56] * aqu4 chucks a nasty, rotten burrito at crutchy
[10:15:01] * aqu4 kicks ciri
[10:15:04] * Subsentient kicks ciri
[10:15:11] <crutchy> aww poor ciri
[10:15:17] * aqu4 chucks a nasty, rotten burrito at crutchy
[10:15:29] <crutchy> $burrito aqu4
[10:15:29] * aqu4 chucks a nasty, rotten burrito at aqu4
[10:15:32] * aqu4 chucks a nasty, rotten burrito at crutchy
[10:16:24] <crutchy> $burrito 2aqu4
[10:16:24] * aqu4 chucks a nasty, rotten burrito at 2aqu4
[10:16:28] * aqu4 chucks a nasty, rotten burrito at crutchy
[10:16:29] <crutchy> :D
[10:16:36] * aqu4 chucks a nasty, rotten burrito at crutchy
[10:16:37] <crutchy> multicolored
[10:16:58] * Subsentient kicks ciri
[10:17:14] <crutchy> you gunna give ciri a complex
[10:17:25] <crutchy> a complicated complex
[10:17:55] <crutchy> that may affect its complexion
[10:18:28] <Subsentient> When I work on aqu4bot and add curl support, I'm going to add a feature where aqu4 tells ciri to stfu whenever he replies to a lol.
[10:19:15] <crutchy> oky doky
[10:19:34] <crutchy> unfortunately when that happens i'll have to /ignore aqu4 too
[10:22:16] <crutchy> is curl sort of just like a protocol library?
[10:22:40] <crutchy> ~define curl
[10:22:43] <exec> [urbandictionary] 3Curl: 1. Someone who is thoroughly convinced that he/she is a man (or pirate) or possesses male-like qualities, often to his/her mockery. 2. Someone who insults women on a daily basis. 3. "A fucking st...
[10:22:59] <crutchy> oky doky
[10:23:05] <Subsentient> crutchy: http://curl.haxx.se
[10:23:07] <monopoly> ^ 03libcurl - the multiprotocol file transfer library ( http://curl.haxx.se )
[10:23:20] <Subsentient> crutchy: What you miss as a high level developer.
[10:23:59] <crutchy> i use fsockopen and code my own http protocol
[10:24:00] -!- Konomi has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
[10:24:53] <Subsentient> crutchy: For Linux I can do that but Windows sockets/suckits are inferior and some things I do are not possible with them.
[10:25:40] <crutchy> protocol is just the format of the messages and is independent of the underlying platform
[10:26:02] <crutchy> delphi sockets in windows are ok though
[10:27:23] <crutchy> its a little tricky to handle non-blocking sockets in windows, but it is possible
[10:28:02] <crutchy> there was a nice little demo that came with delphi 7 that showed how to make the thread class for non-blocking
[10:28:56] <Subsentient> crutchy: I need working nonblocking sockets for Windows for aqu4bot. If there is no ioctl() option for that, then fuck windows.
[10:28:56] -!- Konomi [Konomi!~Konomi@Soylent/Users/189/Konomi] has joined #Soylent
[10:29:12] <Subsentient> I'm not starting a goddamn thread for that.
[10:30:27] <crutchy> threading may just be borland's solution to the problem, but its pretty simple and elegant once you get the hang of it
[10:32:56] <crutchy> not sure how you could handle a socket without interrupting the main process without a thread of some sort
[10:33:06] <crutchy> (in windows)
[10:35:38] <Subsentient> crutchy: that's an abomination
[10:36:13] <crutchy> not saying i like it, but it works
[10:36:37] <Subsentient> bad enough if forced to use posix threads, but win32 threads? *puts head in blender and hits ice crush*
[10:38:15] <crutchy> atm i only use win sock as a web server for querying access databases cos i don't wanna deal with odbc in linux
[10:39:48] <crutchy> i think i may have even stooped so low as to use an indy component out of extreme laziness
[10:40:58] <crutchy> lol yeah i did too
[10:40:59] <ciri> now that is funny
[10:41:29] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Entertainment HUDs in Cars: Pros and Cons - http://sylnt.us - Keep-Informed-Through-Tweets
[10:42:18] <crutchy> its really hard; plonk indy server on form. double-click CommandGet event and it creates a handler template that gives you the thread: procedure IdHTTPServerCommandGet(AThread: TIdPeerThread; ARequestInfo: TIdHTTPRequestInfo; AResponseInfo: TIdHTTPResponseInfo);
[10:43:13] <Konomi> utf support full added
[10:43:21] <Konomi> comments page nothing but emoji
[10:43:28] <crutchy> yeah i saw that
[10:43:46] <crutchy> ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
[10:44:25] <crutchy> gotta test it out i guess
[10:46:10] <crutchy> you not prancing around in your pjs i hope
[10:46:27] * crutchy still has his work clothes on tsk tsk
[11:16:10] <Konomi> wage slave clothes \o/
[11:28:01] <crutchy> i'm not complaining
[11:30:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++
[11:30:37] <Bender> karma - coffee: 627
[11:32:06] <crutchy> morning TheMightyBuzzard
[11:32:12] <crutchy> coffee++
[11:32:12] <Bender> karma - coffee: 628
[11:32:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> evening, crutchy
[11:36:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++ again just because it tastes that good this morning
[11:36:07] <Bender> karma - coffee: 629
[11:36:39] <crutchy> finished my last about half an hour ago :(
[11:37:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> i could have drank like 2 pots before bed and still slept like a log last night. was that tired.
[11:38:30] <paulej72> you must have been tired you slept in
[11:40:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> definitely. spent like 3 hours unfucking then tracing the cause of the fuckerage of a client's db because enrollment records aren't the kind of thing you can just lose
[11:44:14] -!- Bytram|away [Bytram|away!~pc@Soylent/Staff/Developer/martyb] has joined #Soylent
[11:44:14] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v Bytram|away] by juggler
[11:45:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> they're sorted now though, so i shouldn't have to hear from them again until scheduled maintenance time.
[11:45:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> mornin, Bytram|away
[11:46:06] Bytram|away is now known as Bytram
[11:46:09] <Bytram> coffee++
[11:46:09] <Bender> karma - coffee: 630
[11:46:13] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: hiya!
[11:46:17] <crutchy> g'day Bytram
[11:46:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++ damned right
[11:46:19] <Bender> karma - coffee: 631
[11:46:33] <crutchy> coffee++ fuck yeah!
[11:46:33] <Bender> karma - coffee: 632
[11:46:50] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard++ Great job on the UTF-8 rollout!
[11:46:50] <Bender> karma - themightybuzzard: 41
[11:46:53] <Bytram> !woop
[11:46:53] <Bender> woop woop woop (\/) (;,,;) (\/)
[11:47:00] <Bytram> ooooo!
[11:47:03] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard++ Great job on the UTF-8 rollout!
[11:47:03] <Bender> karma - themightybuzzard: 42
[11:47:20] <Bytram> *THERE* !!! Now you know *everything* !!
[11:47:25] <Bytram> =)
[11:47:46] <crutchy> TheMightyBuzzard++ that's not something you wanna advertise
[11:47:46] <Bender> karma - themightybuzzard: 43
[11:47:48] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: got a minute? was looking at an interesting story submission...
[11:48:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> paulej72 did the rollout and the hair pulling. i just did wrote the code when the pressure was off.
[11:48:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, sure
[11:48:30] <crutchy> paulej72++
[11:48:30] <Bender> karma - paulej72: 53
[11:48:38] <Bytram> yeah, but still... well done!
[11:48:44] <Bytram> paulej72++ Definitely!
[11:48:45] <Bender> karma - paulej72: 54
[11:49:04] <crutchy> Bytram++ for his utf-8 testing wizardry
[11:49:04] <Bender> karma - bytram: 13
[11:49:07] <Bytram> can you see stories in the story queue?
[11:49:17] <crutchy> oh wtf? only 13?
[11:49:20] <crutchy> Bytram++
[11:49:20] <Bender> karma - bytram: 14
[11:49:22] <crutchy> Bytram++
[11:49:22] <Bender> karma - bytram: 15
[11:49:27] <crutchy> hmm
[11:49:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> queue, no. sub list, yes.
[11:49:32] <crutchy> martyb++
[11:49:32] <Bender> karma - martyb: 15
[11:49:35] <crutchy> lol
[11:49:36] <ciri> hehehe
[11:49:53] <Bytram> hmmm.
[11:50:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> not any sort of admin on live
[11:50:15] <crutchy> ~queue
[11:50:18] <exec> *** SN submission queue: 12
[11:50:19] <exec> *** http://soylentnews.org
[11:50:38] <Bytram> Story title: encoding: soylentnews doesn't do it properly
[11:51:01] <Bytram> story text... coming right up....
[11:51:02] <Bytram> [ "$( wget -S -O /dev/null <a href="http://soylentnews.org/">http://soylentnews.org/</a> 2>&1 | awk 'tolower($0)~/content-type:.*charset=utf-8/ {print "done right"}' )" = "$( wget -O - --quiet 'http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=14/08/18/0950201' | awk 'tolower($0)~/meta http-equiv="content-type".*content=.*charset=utf-8/ {print "done right"}' )" ] && echo 'yes, done right'
[11:51:04] <monopoly> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[11:51:04] <monopoly> ^ 04SN article 03 Mergers Must Meet the Toothbrush Test in Silicon Valley 04(16 comments):
[11:51:57] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: I don't have a *nix system to try it on, but I tried a couple things and it looks like we ARE doing the right thing, at least from *my* end, was wondering if you could confirm?
[11:52:00] <Bytram> oh, duh.
[11:52:01] <Bytram> hold on
[11:52:12] <Bytram> here's the submission: http://soylentnews.org
[11:52:13] <monopoly> ^ 04SN Submission by tfbb http://whereever 03encoding: soylentnews doesn't do it properly
[11:52:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, i can check real quick with just FF. hang tight
[11:53:09] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: that's what *I* did.
[11:53:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> header is correct
[11:53:21] <crutchy> validates ok
[11:53:32] <crutchy> well, encoding-wise
[11:53:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> meta is correct
[11:53:44] <crutchy> there are a couple of validation errors
[11:53:46] <Bytram> I've got the "LiveHTTP Headers" plugin which let's me see the request and response headers -- those looked right to me.
[11:53:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> dude's just wrong
[11:53:56] <Bytram> then a "view source" looked good, too.
[11:53:58] <Bytram> nod nod
[11:54:10] <crutchy> ooh
[11:54:19] <crutchy> actually there is an encoding error on the main page
[11:54:20] <crutchy> http://validator.w3.org
[11:54:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> and his script don't work either
[11:54:42] <crutchy> Warning Character Encoding mismatch!
[11:54:42] <crutchy> The character encoding specified in the HTTP header (iso-8859-1) is different from the value in the <meta> element (utf-8). I will use the value from the HTTP header (iso-8859-1) for this validation.
[11:55:06] -!- FoobarBazbot has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[11:55:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> wtf
[11:55:11] <Bytram> huh?
[11:55:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> shows utf-8 to me
[11:56:00] <crutchy> does that msg appear in the linked page?
[11:56:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, huh... i am showing a charset=iso-8859-1 header
[11:56:43] <Bytram> huh? I don't see it in the requests/responses... is that in the page source?
[11:57:00] <crutchy> validator says its in the http headers
[11:57:04] <Bytram> nope, don't see it there, either.
[11:57:15] <Bytram> it == "iso-8859-1"
[11:57:16] <crutchy> is there an apache conf setting?
[11:57:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's a var that didn't get set because i forgot to put it in the upgrades file. that's a legit my bad
[11:57:26] <crutchy> oh
[11:57:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's set correctly on dev
[11:57:37] * Bytram is not seeing it. where should I look, exactly?
[11:58:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> web developer, information, view response headers
[11:58:27] <crutchy> hmm
[11:58:30] <crutchy> i get:
[11:58:31] <crutchy> Server: Apache/1.3.42 (Unix) mod_perl/1.31
[11:58:31] <crutchy> X-Powered-By: slashcode 14.04.2
[11:58:31] <crutchy> X-Bender: I'm not allowed to sing. Court order.
[11:58:31] <crutchy> Cache-Control: no-cache
[11:58:33] <crutchy> Pragma: no-cache
[11:58:35] <crutchy> Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
[11:58:37] <crutchy> Content-Encoding: gzip
[11:58:41] <crutchy> Transfer-Encoding: chunked
[11:58:43] <crutchy> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 11:58:01 GMT
[11:58:47] <crutchy> X-Varnish: 800588683
[11:58:49] <crutchy> Age: 0
[11:58:51] <crutchy> Via: 1.1 varnish
[11:58:53] <crutchy> Connection: close
[11:58:55] <crutchy> 200 OK
[11:58:57] <crutchy> no mention of iso
[11:59:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> odd
[11:59:51] <crutchy> ooh i'm logged in though
[11:59:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> same here
[11:59:56] <crutchy> maybe on varnish
[12:00:06] <Bytram> and, here's what *I* got:
[12:00:06] <Bytram> Vary: User-Agent
[12:00:07] <Bytram> Content-Encoding: gzip
[12:00:07] <Bytram> Server: Apache/1.3.42 (Unix) mod_perl/1.31
[12:00:07] <Bytram> X-Powered-By: slashcode 14.04.2
[12:00:07] <Bytram> X-Bender: Curse my natural showmanship!
[12:00:08] <Bytram> Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
[12:00:10] <Bytram> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 11:59:40 GMT
[12:00:12] <Bytram> X-Varnish: 800589045
[12:00:14] <Bytram> Age: 0
[12:00:16] <Bytram> Via: 1.1 varnish
[12:00:18] <Bytram> Transfer-Encoding: chunked
[12:00:20] <Bytram> 200 OK
[12:00:36] <Bytram> I'm logged in, too.
[12:00:38] <crutchy> on non-logged in page i get:
[12:00:39] <crutchy> Server: Apache/1.3.42 (Unix) mod_perl/1.31
[12:00:39] <crutchy> SLASH_LOG_DATA: shtml
[12:00:39] <crutchy> X-Powered-By: slashcode 14.04.2
[12:00:39] <crutchy> X-Fry: Hooray, we don't have to do anything!
[12:00:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> i got a Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
[12:00:41] <crutchy> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
[12:00:43] <crutchy> Content-Encoding: gzip
[12:00:47] <crutchy> Content-Length: 16858
[12:00:49] <crutchy> Accept-Ranges: bytes
[12:00:51] <crutchy> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 12:00:09 GMT
[12:00:53] <crutchy> X-Varnish: 800589124 800589076
[12:00:55] <crutchy> Age: 13
[12:00:57] <crutchy> Via: 1.1 varnish
[12:01:01] <crutchy> Connection: close
[12:01:03] <crutchy> 200 OK
[12:01:13] * Bytram goes to do an actual wget...
[12:01:22] <xunie-laptop> I wish I could (like an IDE or good editor) close anything a person says at flood-levels.
[12:01:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> hmmm
[12:01:47] <xunie-laptop> So that when a person pastes something big in IRC? I can 'hide' all following stuff.
[12:01:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, can you check vars on live?
[12:01:54] <crutchy> sorry xunie-laptop. i could have just picked out the relevant header. was lazy
[12:01:58] <xunie-laptop> :3
[12:02:01] <xunie-laptop> No problem! :3
[12:02:07] <xunie-laptop> BRB
[12:02:08] <Bytram> I dunno, which var?
[12:02:24] <Bytram> xunie-laptop: yup, same here. My bad.
[12:02:51] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: not sure, which var should I look for?
[12:02:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> just want to see what's in content_type_webpage on fluorine and hydrogen
[12:03:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> it looks like they're set differently
[12:03:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> which shouldn't be possibly being as we're using a single db between both
[12:04:13] <Bytram> looks like I *cannot* see vars; admin --> config brings me to the story list page.
[12:04:15] <Bytram> :/
[12:04:21] <crutchy> TheMightyBuzzard, do a page search for "iso" @ http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[12:04:22] <monopoly> ^ 04Wiki: 03FileLocations2: CssWork (parent of this page) FileLocations FileLocationsMisc http://www.mediawiki.org
[12:04:50] <crutchy> there's mention of:
[12:04:51] <crutchy> # change default of "iso-8859-1" here (to, for example, utf-8)
[12:04:51] <crutchy> # if you change "content_type_webpage" in vars, and vice versa
[12:04:51] <crutchy> AddType text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 .shtml
[12:05:05] <crutchy> dunno if its relevant :/
[12:05:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> paulej72, check content_type_webpage on live for us?
[12:05:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> crutchy, is but that sets the meta tag
[12:05:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> which is correct
[12:05:51] <crutchy> there's also http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[12:05:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> whereas the header seems to alternate between correct and incorrect
[12:05:51] <monopoly> ^ 04Wiki: 03SlashpacheConfigFiles: SlashDocumentationIndex - parent These files are what tells Apache to be a slave to perl. Various apache functions are replaced by perl functions.
[12:06:10] <crutchy> that's in the vhost conf
[12:06:15] <crutchy> might be same thing?
[12:06:28] <Bytram> brb
[12:06:29] <ciri> when you coming back. miss ya already! ;) Bytram
[12:08:04] -!- sea`` [sea``!~sea@64.210.xm.zxq] has joined #Soylent
[12:08:16] <crutchy> g'day sea``
[12:08:17] <ciri> yeah, yeah hi HI crutchy
[12:09:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> crutchy, might very well be the vhost config
[12:09:40] <Bytram> sea`: g'day!
[12:10:08] <crutchy> documentation++
[12:10:08] <Bender> karma - documentation: 1
[12:10:29] <crutchy> crutchy-- sucks at documenation
[12:10:35] <crutchy> lol
[12:10:36] <ciri> i missed it, what are you laughing at? >.>
[12:10:42] <crutchy> documenation++
[12:10:42] <Bender> karma - documenation: 1
[12:11:04] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: fwiw...
[12:11:08] <Bytram> wget -S -O NULL: "http://soylentnews.org/" 2>&1 | grep -i content-type | wc
[12:11:08] <monopoly> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[12:11:13] <Bytram> returned: 0 0 0
[12:11:38] -!- sea` has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[12:11:42] * TheMightyBuzzard shurgs
[12:12:00] <Bytram> ahhh, *now* I see it.
[12:12:03] <Bytram> wget -S "http://soylentnews.org/" 2>&1 | grep -i content-type
[12:12:03] <monopoly> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[12:12:14] <Bytram> that gave me:
[12:12:15] <Bytram> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
[12:12:15] <Bytram> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
[12:12:23] <Bytram> so, that's not so good.
[12:12:37] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - systemd: Harbinger of the Linux Apocalypse. - http://sylnt.us - you-either-love-it-or-hate-it
[12:13:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, ya, it's likely the vhost config as i really dunno that i put that in the docs
[12:14:07] <chromas> From the rant-with-no-details dept
[12:14:54] <Bytram> so, how would that manifest to a *user* on the site? What issues would they see?
[12:15:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> flakily but apparently good enough
[12:15:17] -!- n1 [n1!~nick@Soylent/Staff/Editor/n1] has joined #Soylent
[12:15:17] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v n1] by juggler
[12:16:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> man, we need a story with an & or mdash in the title so i can see if it's getting out to twitter correctly now.
[12:17:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> well or in the dept
[12:17:16] <Bytram> hold on; I'm putting this up on gitbug as a hub?
[12:17:18] <Bytram> =)
[12:18:01] <crutchy> ~header content-type http://soylentnews.org
[12:18:02] <monopoly> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[12:18:03] <exec> content-type header for http://soylentnews.org = text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
[12:18:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> eh, this is a more needs fixed today type of thing
[12:18:34] <crutchy> that was a fun little script :p
[12:19:16] <crutchy> ~header x-fry http://soylentnews.org
[12:19:16] <monopoly> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[12:19:32] <crutchy> aww
[12:19:46] <crutchy> ~header server http://soylentnews.org
[12:19:47] <monopoly> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[12:19:48] <exec> server header for http://soylentnews.org = Apache/1.3.42 (Unix) mod_perl/1.31
[12:20:51] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: silly question... we gots two servers, right? don't both have to be set up to put out the right charset?
[12:21:22] <crutchy> does varnish have its own conf hackery?
[12:21:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, they both run from the same config file thanks to gluster
[12:21:38] * crutchy knows nothing about varnish, except that it has a funny smell
[12:21:50] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: ok, thanks for that!
[12:22:23] <crutchy> cos it only showed the iso thingy when i was logged out
[12:23:03] <Bytram> https://github.com
[12:23:03] <monopoly> ^ 03UTF-8 upgrade - still getting iso-8859-1 in headers · Issue #285 · SoylentNews/slashcode · GitHub
[12:23:12] <Bytram> afk; back in a few minutes
[12:24:21] -!- FoobarBazbot|afk [FoobarBazbot|afk!~FoobarBaz@ctvn-99.577.067.59.nptpop-cmts35-dial-sub.rdns-bnin.net] has joined #Soylent
[12:24:21] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v FoobarBazbot|afk] by juggler
[12:24:35] <crutchy> g'day FoobarBazbot|afk !!
[12:24:36] <ciri> hey whats up crutchy
[12:24:37] <crutchy> :D
[12:24:50] FoobarBazbot|afk is now known as FoobarBazbot
[12:24:50] <crutchy> sedbot is gone! :(
[12:25:19] <crutchy> how you been anyway matey?
[12:26:15] <crutchy> you prolly have to register the sedbot nick again cos i think it expired
[12:32:35] <crutchy> ~header content-type http://soylentnews.org
[12:32:36] <monopoly> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[12:32:36] <exec> content-type header for http://soylentnews.org = text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
[12:32:59] <crutchy> that's better. only gets headers instead of entire page
[12:38:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> crutchy, handy
[12:39:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> ~header content-type http://soylentnews.org
[12:39:38] <monopoly> ^ 04SN comment by Anonymous Coward
[12:39:39] <exec> content-type header for http://soylentnews.org = text/html; charset=utf-8
[12:41:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep, figured that would happen
[12:41:28] <crutchy> that's weird
[12:41:57] <Bytram> ~header content-type http://soylentnews.org
[12:41:58] <monopoly> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[12:41:59] <crutchy> exec doesn't login for that script
[12:42:00] <exec> content-type header for http://soylentnews.org = text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
[12:42:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, bet the vhost config didn't get set so anything slash gets to set the charset on is utf-8 while anything apache does is iso-8859-1
[12:42:44] <paulej72> text/html; charset=utf-8
[12:42:50] <Bytram> so, this is coming from apache?
[12:43:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> paulej72, well shit
[12:43:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> paulej72, that was the var. how about in the vhost config?
[12:43:32] <crutchy> well shit is the worst. makes it hard to find fresh water
[12:43:44] <Bytram> lol!
[12:43:51] <paulej72> TheMightyBuzzard: do you know where that is
[12:44:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> not offhand. /srv/slashdev/slash/httpd/slash.conf on the vm
[12:45:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> and yes, i absolutely did miss that in the README.utf8
[12:46:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> will fix that now-ish as i have another bit of minor change that needs merged anyway
[12:47:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> hrm, no it's not slash.conf on the vm
[12:48:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> looks like it's /srv/slashdev/slash/site/slashdev/slashdev.conf on the vm
[12:49:08] <paulej72> try it now
[12:50:12] <paulej72> ~header content-type http://soylentnews.org
[12:50:12] <monopoly> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[12:50:13] <exec> content-type header for http://soylentnews.org = text/html; charset=utf-8
[12:50:31] <crutchy> ~rehash
[12:50:32] <exec> successfully reloaded exec file (55 aliases)
[12:50:42] <crutchy> ~header-login content-type http://soylentnews.org
[12:50:43] <monopoly> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[12:50:46] <exec> content-type header for http://soylentnews.org = text/html; charset=utf-8
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[12:50:53] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v Woods] by juggler
[12:51:01] <crutchy> ^that's with exec logging in
[12:51:02] <paulej72> TheMightyBuzzard: I remember doing that but since it was not in the README i forgot
[12:51:19] <NCommander> Morning world
[12:51:21] <crutchy> oh it fixed already?
[12:51:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> morning, fearless leader
[12:51:31] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, think its time to build a new VM
[12:51:35] <crutchy> mornin boss
[12:51:35] <Bytram> NCommander: g'morning!
[12:51:38] <Bytram> NCommander++
[12:51:38] <Bender> karma - ncommander: 46
[12:51:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, very likely, yes.
[12:51:52] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, recommendations on OS/distro?
[12:51:57] <crutchy> debian++
[12:51:57] <Bender> karma - debian: 12
[12:51:58] * NCommander is tempted to build one with NetBSD just to screw w/ folks
[12:52:13] <crutchy> windows_vista++
[12:52:13] <Bender> karma - windows_vista: 1
[12:52:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, stick with what we're running from to save headaches.
[12:52:28] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, ah, you're no fun :-P
[12:52:34] <NCommander> Ubuntu 14.04 Trusty then
[12:52:35] <crutchy> amigaOS++
[12:52:35] <Bender> karma - amigaos: 2
[12:52:46] <Bytram> scientific method; limit the number of variables you introduce. =)
[12:53:02] <crutchy> unless for regression testing :p
[12:53:03] <chromas> ms-dos
[12:53:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> well we could go Arch and make everyone learn systemd just to bounce apache but no real need.
[12:53:27] <crutchy> add moar varables!
[12:53:34] <chromas> Archlinux++
[12:53:34] <Bender> karma - archlinux: 10
[12:53:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> archlinux++
[12:53:42] <Bender> karma - archlinux: 11
[12:54:43] <crutchy> debian++ cos its the underdog
[12:54:43] <Bender> karma - debian: 13
[12:55:50] <Bytram> CP/M++
[12:56:16] * Bytram misses using PIP to transfer files
[12:56:36] <chromas> Stone_tablets++
[12:56:36] <Bender> karma - stone_tablets: 1
[12:56:44] <paulej72> NCommander: We should wrap up slashcode and post a new release.
[12:57:00] <paulej72> Someone should merge my fix in first though
[12:57:23] <NCommander> paulej72, on it sometime today
[12:57:50] <crutchy> ~header-login content-type http://dev.soylentnews.org
[12:57:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> paulej72, done. thought i did it last night but apparently not.
[12:57:51] <monopoly> ^ 03Dev.SN: Dev.SN is dead developers
[12:57:53] <exec> content-type header for http://dev.soylentnews.org = text/html;charset=UTF-8
[12:58:04] <crutchy> ~header content-type http://dev.soylentnews.org
[12:58:04] <monopoly> ^ 03Dev.SN: Dev.SN is dead developers
[12:58:05] <exec> content-type header for http://dev.soylentnews.org = text/html;charset=UTF-8
[12:59:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> paulej72, back at ya: https://github.com
[13:02:24] <Bytram> ugh; gtg get ready for day job...
[13:02:30] <Bytram> thanks for all the help guys!!!!!!!!
[13:02:32] <Bytram> team++
[13:02:32] <Bender> karma - team: 1
[13:02:36] <Bytram> team++
[13:02:36] <Bender> karma - team: 2
[13:02:36] <Bytram> team++
[13:02:36] <Bender> karma - team: 3
[13:02:43] Bytram is now known as Byttam|afk
[13:02:58] Byttam|afk is now known as Bytram|afk
[13:08:11] <crutchy> ~header-login content-type http://soylentnews.org
[13:08:11] <monopoly> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[13:08:14] <exec> content-type header for http://soylentnews.org = text/html; charset=utf-8 [user=4468::2BCMViN5rmHMIDIMjlFYtq]
[13:08:38] <crutchy> hmm ok thats working
[13:09:06] <crutchy> hmm ok thats working
[13:09:08] <crutchy> ~header-login content-type http://soylentnews.org
[13:09:11] <exec> content-type header for http://soylentnews.org = text/html; charset=utf-8 [user=4468::2BCMViN5rmHMIDIMjlFYtq]
[13:11:31] <crutchy> ~queue
[13:11:35] <exec> *** SN submission queue: 9
[13:11:35] <exec> *** http://soylentnews.org
[13:11:39] <crutchy> ~header-login content-type http://soylentnews.org
[13:11:41] <exec> content-type header for http://soylentnews.org = text/html; charset=utf-8 [user=4468::2BCMViN5rmHMIDIMjlFYtq]
[13:11:53] <monopoly> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[13:11:53] <monopoly> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[13:12:08] <crutchy> hmm
[13:13:08] <crutchy> ~header-login content-type http://soylentnews.org
[13:13:08] <monopoly> ^ 03SoylentNews: SoylentNews is people
[13:13:12] <exec> content-type header for http://soylentnews.org = text/html; charset=utf-8 [user=4468::2BCMViN5rmHMIDIMjlFYtq]
[13:13:59] <crutchy> thought that key would have changed each time
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[13:21:03] <Bytram|afk> ok gtg; have fun everyone!
[13:21:09] Bytram|afk is now known as Bytram|away
[13:21:13] -!- Bytram|away has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[13:23:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, you know, i'm thinking now that we should try making slash vms of like slackware, arch, debian, ubuntu, and centos just to find flaws in the install system and version incompatibilities.
[13:23:46] * NCommander twiches
[13:23:49] <NCommander> Tedious >.<;
[13:24:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya but it should find us plenty of things that need better documentation
[13:24:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> save the next schmucks who try to get a site up using slash some headaches.
[13:25:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> not something we should be in a hurry with though.
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[13:26:14] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v janrinok] by juggler
[13:26:40] <paulej72> TheMightyBuzzard: I say we save that for when we get Apache2 working. Then we can find bugs with distro versions of the different packages
[13:26:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> we could just pick a different alternate each time we remake the dev vm.
[13:27:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> paulej72, yeah, likely a good idea.
[13:28:35] -!- weeds [weeds!~4118a13c@cwz-29-45-637-17.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #Soylent
[13:28:42] <paulej72> right now slash is so self contained, I could probably drop the /srv/soylentenews.org on any linux variant and get it running in a few minutes
[13:28:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> likely
[13:29:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh hey, did you fix the vhost config on live?
[13:31:43] <paulej72> yes about a half hour ago
[13:33:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> outstanding. bounced apache as well?
[13:34:28] <Konomi> waiting for slashOS
[13:34:39] <Konomi> go fourth NCommander you can do it
[13:34:45] * Konomi runs and hides
[13:35:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> Konomi, i LOVE that idea! it would take a lot of time to write in the necessary bugs though.
[13:35:53] <NCommander> paulej72, eh, theres a few external dependencies, but on mostly stable libraries
[13:35:58] <crutchy> TheMightyBuzzard, does http://soylentnews.org clear the cookie fields in the user table?
[13:35:58] <monopoly> ^ 03Log In
[13:36:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> crutchy, beats me. i'd have to find out what script actually handles that then track it down. why do you ask?
[13:37:02] <paulej72> depends what the cookie settings are for the user.
[13:38:38] <crutchy> if i login, clear cookie cache, click logout button, and then log back in, i get the same user cookie
[13:38:41] <paulej72> you can set it to be restrictive. also you can use login_temp=yes to your login to make it set at temp cookie
[13:39:26] <crutchy> login_temp gives me different user cookies, but if i switch between the two, even after logout i seem to get the same user cookies for either
[13:39:35] <paulej72> crutchy: you need to set the prefs on slash for the user. password prefs page
[13:39:50] <crutchy> mkay i'll try that
[13:39:53] <crutchy> ta
[13:40:52] <crutchy> set to expire "when i close my browser" i'm guessing?
[13:41:07] <Konomi> https://twitter.com
[13:41:08] <monopoly> ^ 03Twitter / ajecathturner: Fox News discusses 'Race In ...
[13:41:08] <Konomi> so good
[13:41:45] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - New Method of Cultivating Cancer-Fighting T Cells - http://sylnt.us - nanotubes-get-everywhere
[13:41:55] -!- pbnjoe has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[13:42:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> man, i love how you're not allowed to discuss race if you're white. on tap, no waiting, hot and cold running hypocrisy
[13:46:05] <crutchy> paulej72, no difference
[13:46:13] <Konomi> it's more there was only white people discussing it
[13:46:15] <crutchy> still retains same user cookie value
[13:47:26] <crutchy> set pref to expire when i close my browser. then cleared all cookies, closed browser, logged in, recorded cookie value, logged out, cleared all cookies, closed/reopened browser, logged in and same user cookie
[13:47:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> Konomi, right but that's no different than only black people discussing it unless the person doing the judging has an anti-white, racist attitude to at least a small degree.
[13:47:52] <Konomi> yes it is not different
[13:48:01] <Konomi> talking about race with only one race around is kinda odd
[13:48:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> now if they were talking diversity, that would have been some quality irony.
[13:48:26] <crutchy> unless it involves the urge to reach a finish line of sorts
[13:48:27] <paulej72> could be a bug then. I have not looked at the cookie code at all so I am not sure what it does to generate tha key.
[13:48:59] janrinok is now known as janrinok|lurking
[13:49:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> paulej72, actually does sound like a bug. we should probably clear the saved cookie on logout regardless of prefs.
[13:50:17] <crutchy> i was doing some testing with exec and thought it was odd cos it doesn't have a cookie cache
[13:50:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> crutchy, you know where the bug tracker is. get to it.
[13:50:54] <crutchy> i'll poke around slashcode
[13:51:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> crutchy, you break it, you bought it.
[13:51:27] <crutchy> ~define perl necklace
[13:51:27] <exec> [soylent] perl necklace: something about autoneurotic asphyxiation
[13:51:35] <Konomi> lol
[13:51:39] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, are we filtering out right-to-left characters in UTF-8 world?
[13:51:41] <Konomi> ~define windows
[13:51:44] <exec> [urbandictionary] 3Windows: Windows 95/98, (n): 32 bit extension and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprossessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand...
[13:51:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, damned skippy we are.
[13:51:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> and zero space joiners
[13:52:22] <paulej72> TheMightyBuzzard: the cookie should only be cleared if temp login is set. otherwise the cookie is what is used to log in automatically.
[13:52:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, only those two types of things though unless you have something to add to the list.
[13:52:50] <crutchy> i'll do some more testing paulej72
[13:52:55] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, I'd love to see it actually work
[13:53:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, it isn't?
[13:53:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> cause it's all kinds of good on dev.
[13:53:51] <paulej72> TheMightyBuzzard and NCommander: think we could get away without doing that as modern borowsers seem to keep rtl ltr stuff within the current block only, but I have not tested this extensivly
[13:54:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> paulej72, i think it's mostly to stop things like rtl-ing an address for malicious purposes.
[13:54:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> or having a domain name with a zero space joiner in it masquerading as a legit address.
[13:55:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, will test it on my journal real quick.
[13:55:36] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, at the very least, note it in README.utf8 (the question was asked)
[13:55:38] <paulej72> well then we should have a sperate black list for urls. put that in with the other url fixing we need to do. OR flag it that it is there
[13:55:43] <crutchy> damn. that public terminal doesn't seem to make any difference
[13:56:15] <Konomi> https://twitter.com
[13:56:17] <Konomi> this one is fun
[13:56:18] <crutchy> tried it manually with my own login and still retained the same user cookie through two logins with public terminal checkbox checked
[13:56:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, it's entirely configurable by admins in the vars table just FYI. i made no changes to what characters were allowed from default slash data.
[13:56:39] <crutchy> exec also logs in with that checkbox set
[13:57:03] <crutchy> though i did notice it seems to cycle occasionally
[13:57:10] <crutchy> maybe every 10 mins or so ???
[13:57:44] <crutchy> prolly not a huge worry if cookies only last 10 mins
[13:57:53] <paulej72> there is probably a cookie cleanup task
[13:58:29] <crutchy> i just expected that with the public term checkbox checked, after each login/logout there would be a different user cookie
[13:59:16] <paulej72> crutchy: that is what I would expect, but you have to expect the unexpected with slash
[13:59:59] <crutchy> i'll be a bit more cautious in future when testing bot scripts that involve SN login :p
[14:00:12] <paulej72> ok off to do reak work
[14:00:16] <crutchy> cya
[14:00:22] <crutchy> haf fun :D
[14:00:29] <crutchy> reak_work++
[14:00:29] <Bender> karma - reak_work: 1
[14:02:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, http://soylentnews.org
[14:02:48] <monopoly> ^ 04SN journal 03rtl test 04(1 comments):
[14:04:29] <crutchy> new_poll++
[14:04:29] <Bender> karma - new_poll: 1
[14:04:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, link me the comment and i can reply if you like.
[14:08:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> nvm, found it
[14:12:11] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, thanks
[14:12:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, pending your approval: This behavior came stock with slash code. RTL marks and RTL overrides are specifically blacklisted in the database along with zero-width joiners. I left it in so that people wouldn't be rtl-ing or zero-width-joiner-ing malicious addresses that would look entirely legit to the community. That said, it's admin configurable at runtime so if the powers that be decide they're safe, they can be allowed
[14:12:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> again in a matter of seconds.
[14:14:52] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, hrm ...
[14:15:23] -!- mechanicjay [mechanicjay!~jhowe@Soylent/Staff/Sysop/mechanicjay] has joined #Soylent
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[14:16:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> honestly, we could allow proper rtl marks and keep forbidding rtl overrides. proper marks don't rtl text that isn't from a rtl language.
[14:16:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> assuming i'm not just flat wrong about that.
[14:19:57] <crutchy> the cookie code is here: https://github.com
[14:21:19] -!- SirFinkus has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[14:21:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> crutchy, i completely believe you and yet am going to do nothing about it right this moment.
[14:22:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, any beefs with that reply or am i cool to hit Submit?
[14:22:51] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, I didn't see a reply
[14:22:54] <crutchy> that's ok just thought i'd flag it. i'm not really worried since it does seem to cycle every ten mins or so
[14:23:13] <crutchy> (experimenting in # with exec)
[14:23:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> ^^ "pending your approval..."
[14:23:28] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, ah. honestly, its a question of how badly we could get hosed by it
[14:24:09] <crutchy> maybe chuck something on dev and let the testing mahem begin :p
[14:24:20] <crutchy> can always comment it out if it borks
[14:24:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> we couldn't. modern browsers stop the rtl-ing at the end of the current block
[14:24:41] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, define modern
[14:24:46] * NCommander is unfortunately including IE6 in this
[14:24:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> yerk
[14:25:04] <crutchy> could set a style if an rtl char is encountered?
[14:25:06] <NCommander> wait
[14:25:09] * NCommander checks the stats
[14:26:31] * crutchy quickly tries to download ie6
[14:26:50] <crutchy> hmm actually just need to fudge ua
[14:27:09] <crutchy> >:-)
[14:27:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, if absolutely necessary we can do a balanceTags type thing to make sure that behavior is specifically done with a corresponding LTR mark at the end of the subject/comment/submission. it would be a pita for very little gain though.
[14:27:25] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, eh, forget that about IE6
[14:27:42] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: weirdness on the Piwik stats for Sunday
[14:27:50] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, is there a spec on this behavior? I'm more worred about a mobile browser doing something stupid
[14:28:05] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, that was upgrade stupidity, it got accidently disabled on the site upgrade
[14:28:05] * mrcoolbp is wondering if it had something to do with the site upgrade
[14:28:09] <mrcoolbp> ah
[14:28:21] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, got re-enabled half way through monday, so don't trust the numbers til Tuesday
[14:28:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, yes but i closed the RFCs weeks ago. and it would take a bit to refind them.
[14:29:31] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, bleh, I saw enable it. If someone abuses it, we'll re-address it
[14:30:37] -!- mechanicjay has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[14:30:49] * mrcoolbp grabs the big cup-o-coffee this morn'
[14:31:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, how about changing the last line of that reply to "That said, we're reenabling them today unless they start getting abused"
[14:35:38] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, sounds about right
[14:36:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> NCommander, empty the "charrefs_bad_entity" and "charrefs_bad_numeric" vars from admin panel and bounce apache and thy will shall be done.
[14:36:11] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, I don't want to make more work for you, you've already done an amazing amount effort on this
[14:36:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> no work for me, i'm not an admin on live =P
[14:36:55] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, toasted
[14:37:01] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, well, making you look this up
[14:37:14] <NCommander> TheMightyBuzzard, updated, bouncing
[14:37:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> ditto for dev
[14:39:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> meep, 503s
[14:39:30] <crutchy> just got an empty user cookie :p
[14:39:40] * Konomi runs around in panic
[14:39:58] <crutchy> you guys must be engaged in hackery wackery'
[14:40:24] <Konomi> is that when someone picks up an ibm keyboard and runs around flailing it?
[14:40:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> crutchy, Konomi, ima assume it's the servers starting up slower on live than dev
[14:44:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> behold, i am become moderator, destroyer of trolls
[14:45:05] <crutchy> i post AC :p
[14:45:28] <crutchy> ooh i have mod points too :D
[14:45:46] <mrcoolbp> yay, me too
[14:45:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> wait, what?
[14:46:01] <crutchy> mod points for all!
[14:46:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> if ac gets mod points, i'm quitting.
[14:46:11] <mrcoolbp> oh, but they expire in 20 min...
[14:46:25] <crutchy> i'm logged in
[14:46:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> (Dresden Files)++
[14:46:34] <Bender> karma - (dresden files): 1
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[14:47:33] <mrcoolbp> TheMightyBuzzard: got FF loaded up, should I be adding stylish?
[14:47:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, right, yeah
[14:47:51] <mrcoolbp> = )
[14:47:55] <crutchy> the systemd article seems popular
[14:48:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> makes for easy css jiggery-pokery
[14:48:01] <crutchy> controversy++
[14:48:01] <Bender> karma - controversy: 1
[14:48:19] <Lagg> Well, I'm starting to become resigned to systemd's fate. Even when I try my hardest to encourage critical thinking people just refuse to give these maintainers any reason whatsoever to take criticisms seriously.
[14:49:14] <Lagg> http://soylentnews.org and then suddenly highest modded reply to my post can be summarized as "OMG INSECURE WEBSERVER". As if the libmicrohttpd-using gateway is a fork of apache or some shit.
[14:49:14] <monopoly> ^ 04SN comment by Lagg (105)
[14:50:55] <Lagg> and now like many projects the maintainers are not only going to (somewhat rightfully) cease listening to feedback but probably actively disdain the people giving it and continue sending it further down the rabbit hole to spite them.
[14:51:19] <Lagg> Good fucking job guys. You're doing the hacker community proud.
[14:53:47] <Lagg> At least I can say that this sort of thing isn't as bad as it was getting at slashdot.
[14:53:56] <crutchy> i dunno what the big deal is. surely you can just remove systemd and replace with sysvinit or some other one
[14:54:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> Lagg, ya. i use the bloody thing and every time i turn around i'm having to figure out what the latest systemd broke the fuck out of.
[14:54:10] <crutchy> i thought choice was linux's strong suite
[14:54:58] <crutchy> https://wiki.debian.org
[14:55:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> currently it's nfs. perfectly good /etc/exports stopped working on me.
[14:55:16] <Lagg> TheMightyBuzzard: You can probably in part thank people such as those replying to my post for that. Bug reports are either responded to as if they creator was an enemy because of the tone and the flood of what is essentially hatemail probably drowning it out.
[14:55:22] <mechanicjay> crutchy: I'd almost accuse you of being a troll there. Except that the state of affairs is so bad with a lot of distros right now that you effectively don't have a choice.
[14:55:44] <mechanicjay> which is infuriating.
[14:56:20] <Lagg> Which is again why I say most of the maintainers probably need to be expelled as they're arrogant pricks. But then people also need to stop being hyperbolous pricks and do bug reports right. It's a two to tango sort of deal.
[14:56:27] <crutchy> so is it going to be systemd or the highway?
[14:57:09] <crutchy> debian_stable++ at least it will take a while and hopefully some of the bugs will be sorted by then
[14:57:09] <Bender> karma - debian_stable: 1
[14:57:37] <mrcoolbp> TheMightyBuzzard: got FF loaded up w/ stylish, now what?
[14:57:39] <Lagg> crutchy: If this horrific feature creep continues yes that will probably come to pass.
[14:58:03] <Lagg> Seriously depresses me. First release was so promising.
[14:58:23] <mechanicjay> that seems to be the case -- I think part of the problem, unlike a desktop manager or $favorite_util, this stuff lives so low in the system stack, I think its hard to rip and replace.
[14:58:27] <crutchy> i'm sure there will be camps that keep others working. i can't imagine debian without sysvinit
[15:00:11] <Lagg> It really saddens me that it looks like they're /kind of/ trying to do this right as most of it lives in separate binaries and running as proper separate users where applicable. But those binaries can't be put into separate packages or maintained as separate projects because they're badly coupled.
[15:00:36] <Lagg> I've looked at the code, it's soooooooooooooo in the right place. But they're just slipping away.
[15:00:45] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - One Codex Wants To Be The Google For Genomic Data - http://sylnt.us - all-the-eggs-in-one-basket?
[15:01:19] <crutchy> hmm last user cookie was held for a good 30 minutes
[15:01:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> mrcoolbp, apparently now you wait for me to get back from refilling my coffee
[15:01:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++
[15:01:36] <Bender> karma - coffee: 633
[15:01:47] <mrcoolbp> coffee++
[15:01:47] <Bender> karma - coffee: 634
[15:01:53] <mechanicjay> coffee++
[15:01:53] <Bender> karma - coffee: 635
[15:01:56] <Lagg> and I know I'll bring back flashbacks of terrifyingly bad XML layouts when I say this but: The protocol def XML files are great
[15:02:01] <Lagg> Same thing for wayland
[15:02:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> sliding over to #staff so we don't spam up the systemd discussion
[15:02:22] <crutchy> night folks
[15:02:24] <Lagg> I hate when projects do things so right, then like someone slipping off a cliff just screw it all up
[15:02:36] <Lagg> I'm done TheMightyBuzzard, I'm literally getting depressed.
[15:02:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> ahh
[15:04:06] <Lagg> TheMightyBuzzard: Forgot to mention, you /or paulej72 should tag issues that are easily enough implemented features as low hanging fruit
[15:04:15] <Lagg> One of the best ways to get people contributing
[15:04:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> would if there were a tag for that.
[15:04:44] <crutchy> perl is the brick wall for me
[15:04:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> no idea if i can make one
[15:04:53] <Lagg> You can just create one, one of the beauties of github's system
[15:05:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> may then
[15:05:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> course we're likely to do them all for 14.10
[15:05:24] <Lagg> crutchy: Let me tell you a secret, even for the most seasoned admins that wrote a whole crapload of scripts to process logs or mail and things of that nature perl is a brick wall
[15:05:59] <paulej72> if someone did not do it hydrogen slash need to truned off along with varnish
[15:06:16] <Lagg> crutchy: No one merely gets used to perl like other languages. People's way of doing things and usage of the syntax is so varied that it can almost be said that no two codebases will be the same, and a large project in perl is a pretty damn big undertaking.
[15:06:34] <Lagg> Perl is like the most hilarious esoteric language but at the same time the most practical language. It's weird like that.
[15:07:01] <Konomi> scroll down twitter page dynamtic loading
[15:07:05] <Konomi> get to link want to just get image
[15:07:10] <Konomi> click opens on same page
[15:07:14] <Konomi> all my scrolling gone
[15:07:18] <Konomi> thank you web 2.0 thank you so much
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[15:07:53] <crutchy> perl is on one side of a ravine, i'm on the other, and there's an old rickety bridge between us... i'm like "fuck that for a joke!"
[15:08:02] <Konomi> how do people use this shit?
[15:08:10] <Konomi> someone explain it to me please
[15:08:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> Konomi, middle mouse button works for me
[15:08:36] <Konomi> TheMightyBuzzard: yeah but one accident you're scrwed
[15:08:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[15:08:46] <Konomi> that and I was trying to figure out how to open the image in a new tab already
[15:08:51] <Konomi> and middle click was just playing the damn video
[15:08:52] <mechanicjay> Konomi, sorry can't. I've even seen a couple sites lately that seemingly disable ctrl-click, so I can't even open in a new tab, without jumping through hoops.
[15:09:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> dynamic scrolling is the suck. period.
[15:09:07] <crutchy> konomi, you need to press CRTL+F3+TAB+SHIFT+B while standing on your tip toes
[15:09:08] <Konomi> we need to kill these people
[15:09:11] <Konomi> i see no other solution
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[15:09:45] <mechanicjay> crutchy: what if you don't have enough fingers for that?
[15:09:52] <Lagg> Konomi: Well personally I use it by not using it.
[15:10:04] <Blackmoore> mornin
[15:10:04] <Lagg> My solution to such things has a 100% success rate.
[15:10:17] <mechanicjay> Hey Blackmoore
[15:10:29] <Konomi> yeah but I'm invisioning a future where the stuff I wnat to find is locked behind a very shitty web site
[15:10:32] <Konomi> and there's no escape
[15:10:40] <crutchy> mechanicjay, then you need to install windows vista
[15:11:53] <mechanicjay> crutchy: ...I can't even.
[15:12:04] <Lagg> Konomi: That's been a problem since websites first happened (remember the under construction gifs). Twitter is going to fade like any other stupid fad and forums will continue existing
[15:12:40] <Lagg> Besides humor there is little insight to be found there anyway besides links to articles, putting useful content in 140 characters is a tall order
[15:12:44] <crutchy> mechanicjay, i guess you would be stuck drinking water contaminated by well shit
[15:12:54] <crutchy> wait, what were we talking about?
[15:13:07] <mrcoolbp> "well shit" hmmmm...
[15:13:09] <Lagg> That's basically what composes most of twitter, stupid humor, stupid shilling, stupid retweets, stupid links and then links to insightful articles
[15:13:25] <mechanicjay> ...dude. The rails, are about 10 miles to west of this conversation.
[15:13:28] <Konomi> it annoys me cause twitter could be better
[15:13:31] <Konomi> it don't have to suck
[15:13:44] <Lagg> mechanicjay: Ignore me and Konomi, we're on a different topic than you
[15:14:20] <mechanicjay> Lagg: sorry, that was in response to crutchy
[15:14:28] <mechanicjay> I'm following you guys just fine
[15:14:53] <Lagg> Konomi: Yes, but there are better implementations of what it tries to do. I kind of have a grudging admiration for microblogging in itself because of how certain implementations of it have really neat semantics in its markup. But that's more a technical thing that isn't inherent to microblags.
[15:14:55] <Konomi> water contaminated by well shit and twitter could go together you know
[15:15:10] <Lagg> I might even have given too much credit to it, really, look at it.
[15:15:31] <Lagg> It's basically composed entirely of anyone who may have something useful to say linking to their own website where they have room to say it.
[15:15:59] <Konomi> yeah that does irritate me
[15:17:35] <Konomi> twitter can seem like a stylised web search of sorts
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[15:24:43] <sea``> Will constant vibration have any major negative effect on a laptop?
[15:25:00] <mrcoolbp> probably not good for the HD unless it's solid state
[15:25:11] <sea``> Say, movement by about 3 cm every 0.1 seconds?
[15:29:01] <sea``> shit
[15:29:30] <sea``> Oh, phew
[15:29:39] <sea``> I saw a bunch of BTRFS IO failure errors in the system log just now
[15:29:54] <sea``> Turns out they were from earlier on, rather than just now.
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[16:14:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> anyone feel like critiquing new blockquotes style?
[16:14:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> http://dev.soylentnews.org
[16:14:28] <monopoly> ^ 04SN (dev) comment by The Mighty Buzzard (18)
[16:17:26] <Lagg> TheMightyBuzzard: The container look in itself is nice but the fade out is weird
[16:17:33] <poutine> it's just too bad nobody uses SN and nobody will ever see it
[16:17:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> poutine, yeah. crying shame, that.
[16:18:00] <Lagg> I honestly like the simple grayed out look that's there now, but then again I'm just happy that there is a visual difference
[16:21:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> Lagg, yeah. as long as it's not too blam-in-your-face i really don't care. it got more beefs than props though in the comments.
[16:21:46] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Greenwald Calls Out CIA Funded NPR Propoganda - http://sylnt.us - ends-justify-the-means,-probably
[16:22:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> https://www.youtube.com
[16:22:09] <monopoly> ^ 03Liberals Shoot Guns For The 1st Time - YouTube
[16:22:29] <Blackmoore> i like the block quote style
[16:22:41] <Lagg> TheMightyBuzzard: I'm looking at the test style without the gradient and 1em radius on all corners and it looks pretty decent that way
[16:23:09] <Lagg> There's probably heavy personal bias though since I generally like container looks like that.
[16:23:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[16:24:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> welcome back, btw, poutine. we missed you telling us how bad we suck.
[16:24:42] <poutine> been busy
[16:24:56] <poutine> I promise to make up for it
[16:25:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> excellent
[16:26:16] * mrcoolbp jacks poutine into the Matrix and installs the "Constructive Criticism" program
[16:27:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> poutine, unicode characters in email notifications are broken. i think the rest of the issues are on the tracker.
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[16:30:05] <mrcoolbp> BRB: breakfast 3 hours late
[16:34:46] <poutine> I remember utf8 was something touted as a new feature when SN made its first release
[16:35:00] <poutine> how many times are people going to take credit for this "new" feature
[16:35:02] <ciri> doing good, and you?
[16:35:47] * mrcoolbp kicks the matrix
[16:35:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> poutine, beats me. it was never working on initial release and i don't remember anyone ever saying it was aside from being on the to-do list.
[16:36:04] <mrcoolbp> looks like I loaded the "kung fu" program instead, crap now he's more powerful
[16:36:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> but i'll take credit for the hours of code it took to get it to its current functional but less than perfect state.
[16:36:38] <sea``> HAI-YAAAA!
[16:36:46] * sea`` knows kung fu.
[16:36:55] sea`` is now known as sea
[16:37:06] <sea> What is it that keeps disconnecting me so often? Hrm
[16:38:41] <Konomi> it's that time fo the daya gain
[16:38:44] <Konomi> poutine--
[16:38:44] <Bender> karma - poutine: -354
[16:51:36] <mrcoolbp> Oh, I didn't realize it was poutine-bash-o-clock yet. How the time flies.
[16:51:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm not bashing, i'm baiting.
[16:52:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> subtle difference
[16:52:19] * TheMightyBuzzard is a master baiter
[16:53:27] <mrcoolbp> eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew
[16:53:54] <mechanicjay> TheMightyBuzzard: --
[16:54:04] <mechanicjay> TheMightyBuzzard--
[16:54:04] <Bender> karma - themightybuzzard: 42
[16:54:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, i should probably nograb that
[16:54:20] <mechanicjay> :)
[16:54:31] <mrcoolbp> I don't think you can !grap "/me" s
[16:54:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, but one of you wiseacres could have
[16:54:58] * mechanicjay tries to grab himself
[16:55:06] <mechanicjay> !grab mechanicjay
[16:55:06] <Bender> Added quote 228
[16:55:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> !quote 228
[16:55:20] <Bender> Quote 228 - <mechanicjay> !grab mechanicjay
[16:55:54] * mechanicjay tries to let someone else grab him
[16:56:35] <mrcoolbp> !grab mechanicjay
[16:56:35] <Bender> Added quote 229
[16:56:41] <mrcoolbp> !quote 229
[16:56:41] <Bender> Quote 229 - <mechanicjay> !grab mechanicjay
[16:56:41] <mechanicjay> !quote 229
[16:56:41] <Bender> Quote 229 - <mechanicjay> !grab mechanicjay
[16:56:52] <mrcoolbp> see ?
[16:56:53] <mechanicjay> lame
[16:57:00] <mrcoolbp> yeah
[16:57:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> no work for actions
[16:57:52] <mrcoolbp> no worky
[16:57:56] <mechanicjay> Well, I suppose the irc logs are the only incriminating evidence of my grabbing escapades then.
[16:58:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> !grab bewbs
[16:58:22] <Bender> I don't know what bewbs said, so I can't quote them!
[17:07:58] <mrcoolbp> Oh Bender!
[17:10:12] <mrcoolbp> alright, gotta get read for work
[17:12:07] * sea opens mrcoolbp to page 7 and begins to read.
[17:12:35] * mrcoolbp hopes he's a good read
[17:13:28] <sea> I think you're encrypted or something. All I see is lots of A's C's T's and G's
[17:13:39] <sea> There's clearly some secret knowledge in here that you're trying to hide.
[17:13:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> skip to page 327. that's where he motorcycle jousts against godzilla using an anti-tank weapon instead of a lance.
[17:13:47] <sea> Probably terrorism related.
[17:21:29] <sea> What time does By* come online?
[17:21:36] <sea> I can't remember their name but it beings it By
[17:21:56] <mechanicjay> bytram?
[17:22:08] <sea> Ah, yeah I think that's it
[17:22:47] <mechanicjay> I don't know when he shows up -- but at least everyone knows who you're talking about
[17:32:39] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Greenwald Calls Out CIA Funded NPR Propaganda - http://sylnt.us - ends-justify-the-means,-probably
[17:37:18] -!- janrinok|lurking has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
[17:50:55] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Why Most Companies Don't Respect Software Engineers - http://sylnt.us - put-your-business-head-on
[18:00:49] <Blackmoore> http://boingboing.net
[18:02:51] <n1> journalist have to be arrested, otherwise the looters win.
[18:05:00] <mrcoolbp> tru
[18:06:02] <n1> they should go back to what they're best at, reprinting press releases from the relevant police deparments.
[18:15:00] <Blackmoore> and so they took the reporters ; and because i was not one i did not protest.
[18:15:33] <Blackmoore> and then they took the tweeters; but i did not have one and i did not protest.
[18:15:33] <n1> Well, i was told i shouldn't protest
[18:15:38] <n1> because thats how you end up on those lists
[18:15:53] <Blackmoore> and then they cam for me.
[18:16:10] <n1> I was warned against going to visit Occupy for myself, because just being there makes me a suspect for whatever.
[18:16:23] <n1> I went anyway, what i saw was a long way from what was being reported in the press.
[18:18:56] <n1> When they come for me, no one will protest because i'll be the bad guy then. The prosectors media budget will be far greater and who are we to doubt the venerable law insitutions that have safeguarded our familes for generations?
[18:19:53] <mechanicjay> n1 are you familiar with Blackmoore's reference?
[18:21:14] <n1> I read the original some time ago, can't remember exactly where it's from though. It is often touted to encourage dissent.
[18:22:12] <mechanicjay> Martin Niemoller in Nazi Germany:
[18:22:15] <mechanicjay> First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
[18:22:15] <mechanicjay> Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
[18:22:15] <mechanicjay> Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
[18:22:15] <mechanicjay> Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
[18:23:02] <n1> mhm
[18:23:04] <mechanicjay> I read it as a warning against a slippery slope of authoritarianism and how it's too easy to look the other way, until suddenly it's too late.
[18:23:14] <n1> I agree
[18:23:52] <n1> As much as i'm not looking the other way, I feel defeated already before they've come for me.
[18:24:16] <mechanicjay> yeah, its easy to feel that way
[18:25:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> n1, buy a gun.
[18:26:05] <Landon> you never buy a gun
[18:26:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> own a gun, you're free until you die.
[18:26:09] <Landon> you buy multiple
[18:26:17] <mechanicjay> cash and don't let anyone know you have it
[18:26:31] <n1> It's something I only actually came to comprehend recently. I was brought up in a society that never gave the idea of freedom as a right or even a goal. Freedom and privacy were never something taught as a fundamental to society.
[18:26:53] <n1> You accept the tyranny of the state, because of what the tryanny of other states have done to this one.
[18:26:54] -!- Woods has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[18:27:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> paulej72++
[18:27:24] <Bender> karma - paulej72: 55
[18:27:43] <n1> Guns would be a very quick way to lose my freedom very quickly. Living in the UK at the moment.
[18:28:07] <mechanicjay> oh yeah, they already took your guns.
[18:28:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> n1, nah. you'd stay free right up to the point that they shot you.
[18:28:33] <mechanicjay> I think the Australians just lost theirs too.
[18:28:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> which is an okay outcome for myself. i'd rather die free than live as a slave.
[18:29:37] <n1> TheMightyBuzzard, i understand. At the same time, my demise in that circumstance would be the next years propaganda to further enshrine the state tyranny.
[18:30:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> it would also be inspiration to other like-minded individuals
[18:31:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> but living in the UK you are at a SEVERE disadvantage rights-wise. there's an extremely long history there of disarming the populace to control them.
[18:31:58] <n1> circumstances dependant. If they come for someone like me, it will be when i'm travelling, at an international airport.
[18:32:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> going back to when swords were cutting-edge tech. (pun intended.)
[18:32:21] <n1> heh
[18:33:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> i think you're still allowed longbows though
[18:33:25] <n1> As i said before, being brought up in the UK, i was never educated to believe i had rights. It's done in a very subtle way but it's basically... "The british beat the Nazi's, the government can't do anything wrong, it's a democracy after all."
[18:36:02] <n1> we were on the opposing side to Nazism and Stalinism therefor we must be right in everything we do, and the straw man arguments never end from that perspective. It's obviously done in a far more subtle way, talking about the generations that 'sacrificed' for our freedom now, we should be thankful for the freedom we're allowed.
[18:36:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> some wacked reasoning, that's for sure.
[18:37:03] <n1> TheMightyBuzzard, in theory I believe in this country, you can get 10 years for carrying anything with a blade longer than an inch or so.
[18:37:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> gah
[18:37:23] <mechanicjay> TheMightyBuzzard: Only to us Americans.
[18:37:33] <n1> and of course, our freedom of speech extends as far as something that "may cause distress"
[18:38:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> see, i used to drive to school with a shotgun and rifle in my gun rack. nobody said anything unless it was to discuss them as enthusiasts.
[18:38:53] <n1> Spending much of my life growing up with American media, the line got blurred into thinking what 'rights' americans have are also universal.
[18:39:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> and everybody and their dog carried a pocket knife. average blade length about 3 inches probably.
[18:40:18] <n1> Teenagers do that here now for 'self-defence', it's generally that demographic that end up stabbing each other.
[18:40:34] <mechanicjay> Remember, one of the things makes the US "Exceptional" is that we can do whatever the fuck we want, *except* where there is a law against it. By law the goverment is prevented from making laws governing our rights. A totally radical idea for the 1700's and still pretty outstanding today -- despite the errosion of the principle over time.
[18:40:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> we just did it because it's generally handy to have a knife in case you need to cut something.
[18:41:19] <n1> TMB, very much so, but in London as a city, that's generally not an accepted view point.
[18:41:32] <n1> I'm sure in more rural areas of the country it's much more common and accepted.
[18:42:20] <mechanicjay> n1: Not too different here. Stuff is waaay more relaxed wrt knives and guns once you get out of the cities.
[18:42:24] <n1> mechanicjay, in theory it works well, but it does rely on the government to enforce the law on itself, as we've seen over the last couple of decades, and before that - doesn't happen in the way one would hope,
[18:43:15] <n1> my general thing is though, as violated as it is, at least america has those principles on paper, you can point to those documents and say 'the founding of our contry was based on'
[18:43:21] <n1> and it's written clearly
[18:43:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[18:44:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> you lot have freedom of speech, for example, only as part of common law
[18:44:04] <mechanicjay> n1, part of the problem here, is that the checks and balances are all out of whack, with more and more power getting concentrated in the Presidents office, and being given carte blanche on stuff depending on which party has the majority in congress.
[18:44:10] <n1> the closest we get here --
[18:44:12] <n1> "David Cameron: human rights laws stop Britain protecting against terrorism"
[18:44:43] <n1> from our Prime Minister, saying the vague concept of rights we do have generally only because of international agreement, are getting in the way of catching terrorists.
[18:45:45] <n1> mechanicjay, it's very complicated all round, and it doesn't help from my perspective, the federal government may be corrupt, to the core even, but the local governments of what ever stripe are the same in most cases
[18:46:39] <n1> it goes all the way down to every layer of local government, all protecting their own interests (or the party, investors), not the interests of the population or defending the freedoms and rights you're supposed to have.
[18:47:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's always safe to assume the government is corrupt. that is more or less a universal law.
[18:47:46] <n1> it's the undue respect long standing institutions have which is the problem, it's not something unique to government.
[18:47:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> only asshats who want power ever run for office and nobody ever wants power so they can NOT tell you what to do.
[18:49:17] <n1> and even if you are running with honesty and integrity, you will be vetted and shaped as necessary until you're 'ready'
[18:49:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> no need. give someone power and they WILL abuse it. they're only human and humans are fallible.
[18:50:39] <n1> most who will take the power, will abuse it intentionally
[18:51:01] <n1> others might do it by ignorance, but generally yes.
[18:51:57] <n1> and the abuse of power is subjective, the party or establishment wont have a problem with abuse of power for mutual benefit, thats where the vetting and shaping comes in.
[18:52:03] <n1> in that case, it's called 'strong leadership'
[18:53:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's not really subjective if you're a libertarian. any exercise of government power over another human is wrong, though some are so universally popular that we accept them as a group.
[18:53:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> like murder laws and such.
[18:53:59] <mechanicjay> at a certain point thats the price for having a society, right?
[18:54:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> still wrong but extremely practical.
[18:54:10] <n1> mechanicjay, indeed.
[18:54:49] <mechanicjay> Some amount of practical organization to get things done or maintained. There's the problem though....
[18:54:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> nope. society CAN be free. if you change human nature to where people aren't going to vote themselves power over you every chance they get.
[18:54:57] <n1> Even if you don't have a 'government', if a group seek to punish a person for murder, it's still the same theory when it's beyond an individual.
[18:56:18] <mechanicjay> When an organizational structure proves successful at providing something or dealing with a problem, the default reaction is to have more structures to deal with more problems and provide more things.
[18:56:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> see, i could never be an anarchist because i know it only lasts about the 5s it takes some dick to relize it means he can abuse power over others through strength.
[18:57:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> so i accept as minimal as possible a government and simply break the laws i do not agree with.
[18:57:16] <n1> We need to be more empathetic and less willing to seek divides over any differences they may have with others.
[18:57:45] <mechanicjay> n1, but that's not The American Way.
[18:58:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> n1, eh... not really. we need exactly the opposite. we need to not give a damn what others feel or do and stay the hell out of their business.
[18:58:14] <mechanicjay> n1 I say that in jest, but there is a kernel of truth there,
[18:58:43] <n1> TheMightyBuzzard, we're reaching for the same ends.
[18:59:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> right but your way leads to empathyfest and hatemongering Al Sharptons.
[18:59:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> seen it happen. empathy becomes self-hate in a full third of the population.
[18:59:59] <mechanicjay> TheMightyBuzzard: upon re-reading what n1 said, I think it can be interpreted differently.
[19:00:34] <mechanicjay> As in: Don't worry about and concentrate on what makes you different from the next guy.
[19:00:35] <n1> I don't know if your way leads anywhere better. except fighting over ownership of resources in a more direct way than we do now.
[19:00:57] <n1> mechanicjay, indeed.
[19:01:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> n1, more honest at least.
[19:01:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> and you don't technically need empathy to avoid being a dick.
[19:01:48] <mechanicjay> I think the empathy for your fellow man idea is a very nuanced thing.
[19:02:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can be concerned about yourself and what kind of person you wish to be and reach the same end.
[19:02:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> without empathy.
[19:02:40] <mechanicjay> In the immediate case, it makes good neighbors. The the wider case and taken to an extreme, I think it leads to what TMB is talking about
[19:03:52] <n1> You might not need empathy to not be a dick, but having some degree of it isn't going to hurt either.
[19:04:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> having it, no, acting on it is a slippery slope though.
[19:04:45] <n1> Just because you can take an alternative perspective and empathize with someones actions or words doesn't mean you agree with them in any way.
[19:04:47] <mechanicjay> I think lack of empathy is the text book definition of a sociopath.
[19:05:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[19:06:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> i guess sympathy would be a better word for what i dislike.
[19:06:26] <mechanicjay> Living with a 3 year old, has given me perspective on what the world would be like without empathy -- it's not pretty.
[19:06:43] <n1> That i can empathize with, TheMightyBuzzard ;)
[19:06:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> i prefer enlightened self-interest. it never requires you lie to yourself.
[19:08:23] <n1> mechanicjay, children can give you that perspective, which is why it's most peoples default reaction to try and help a vulnerable child even if it's not their own.
[19:08:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> i apparently lack empathy for the types like white people that take anti-racism zealotry so far as to become racist against themselves. i simply do not understand it.
[19:08:54] <mechanicjay> okay, yes false sympathies being paraded around for some political or commerical agenda -- that is the downfall of society in action.
[19:09:24] <n1> agreed
[19:10:36] <n1> It would be nice to be able to move on from race, but institutional racism still exists in a big way so it can't be left behind just yet.
[19:11:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, it doesn't. racism can only exist on an individual level.
[19:13:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> all moral faults and virtues can only belong to individuals. collectivism is a fallacy and racism is the oldest form of collectivism.
[19:14:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> i say this for the same reason people argue against corporate personhood.
[19:14:43] <n1> You are influenced by the people around you. The people I know who are racist, sexist or homophobic, were brought up in an environment where it was encouraged and expected.
[19:14:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> they're abstract concepts, not thinking beings.
[19:15:37] <mechanicjay> institutional racism is a reflection of the society which built up around a culture or way of thinking.
[19:15:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> n1 yes but you have a choice. if you're not self-aware enough to see it that is not racism.
[19:15:43] <n1> People are shaped by insitutions, like enlisting in the military or the police. They carry out their actions on individual levels, but they have been heavily influenced by the organization they belong to.
[19:16:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> mechanicjay, institutional racism is a concept built up to be used when you can't be bothered to find an actual racist. it is evil as a concept.
[19:16:56] <n1> Some people don't like to think for themselves, which is why they join various organizations willing to think for them.
[19:17:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> it punishes people who have done nothing wrong and assigns blame where there is none.
[19:17:28] <mechanicjay> as such, it's hard to knock that down, because its sort of engrained in the fabric of society. It's hard to re-write the DNA of a society to get rid of that.
[19:18:09] <mechanicjay> TheMightyBuzzard, I'm not sure I agree with you on your previous point
[19:18:22] <mechanicjay> about not being able to find an actual racists
[19:18:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> accept that blame as you like but i will not. i am not a racist of any stripe and will not be called one even as part of a group.
[19:18:36] <mechanicjay> If you cant' find one, you're not looking hard enough
[19:19:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> mechanicjay, quite likely but you still have to find them. you can't blame everyone.
[19:19:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> it is morally wrong.
[19:19:39] <mechanicjay> agreed
[19:20:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> i like institutional racism as a phrase almost as much as i like check your privilege.
[19:20:36] <mechanicjay> okay, I think I see what you're saying....I need to figure out if I agree or not now.
[19:20:55] <mechanicjay> Yeah, I thought you might be going there next
[19:21:31] <mechanicjay> Those are really two facets of the same issue.
[19:21:32] <n1> I agree in general terms with TMB, not everyone in x group is a racist, but that doesn't stop the group as a whole facilitiating and condoning racism.
[19:21:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> mechanicjay, it's all well and good to say there is a lot of racism in X, it is not okay to lump all the individuals together in guilt.
[19:21:52] <mechanicjay> agreed
[19:22:03] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Counter To Hacienda Spy Program Developed - http://sylnt.us - government-botnet
[19:22:13] <n1> That's certainly not what i meant by institutional racism when I said it.
[19:22:22] <n1> But it is a valid point to make for clarity.
[19:22:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> n1, ya but it is absolutely how the phrase is used most often.
[19:22:49] <n1> agreed
[19:23:12] * TheMightyBuzzard really despises race-baiters.
[19:23:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> plenty of actual evil here without having to create yourself some made up low hanging fruit
[19:25:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> man i am so ranty mcrantpants today
[19:26:03] <n1> it's nice to have a somewhat constructive rant from time to time
[19:26:09] <n1> i feel better for it heh
[19:28:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> witness me trying really hard not to segue into a check your privilege rant.
[19:29:05] <n1> lol
[19:29:15] <swiss> i hate sjw people
[19:29:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> me too.
[19:29:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> what's a sjw person?
[19:29:40] <swiss> social justice warrior
[19:29:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> roger dodger.
[19:30:07] <swiss> the people who look for any reason to fight for a group "being oppressed"
[19:30:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> cheerleaders
[19:30:21] <swiss> like if I randomly fought for trans* people
[19:30:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[19:31:15] <swiss> i also hate nearly every talk about women in security
[19:31:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> and the phrase rape culture
[19:31:49] <swiss> it's not discrimination when they are being given the same amount of stress/pushing as their male counterparts
[19:32:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> i mean FU! i'm part of this culture and would never condone rape in any way.
[19:32:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[19:32:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> ditto dual military PT standards
[19:32:24] <sea> Hm..geez bacteria produce a lot of heat
[19:32:31] <swiss> overall, women fight back less in response to aggression (non-physical) in my experience
[19:32:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> sea, brush yo teeth then. =P
[19:32:48] <swiss> and it leads to them not integrating with a culture and environment that is working
[19:33:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> swiss, actually works fine in the army. or well enough anyway. mostly due to the low enlistment rates of women though.
[19:33:48] <sea> TheMightyBuzzard: I just discovered that some rotting stuff I had in an open plastic container managed to get so hot that the contained became warped. That's really interesting
[19:34:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> sea, ya. compost piles do get hot like that.
[19:34:44] <sea> I should get a thermometer and monitor this sort of thing. Maybe I can build an engine out of garbage.
[19:35:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> careful with that. you can definitely build a fire out of it.
[19:35:33] <sea> That's even cooler, then. It sits there at room temperature and gets hotter and hotter until it actually ignites? Can it get that hot?
[19:35:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes, absolutely
[19:35:55] <sea> Wow that's really cool!
[19:36:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's a large part of why you don't let compost get too dry on top. turn in with a pitchfork or in a drum or whatever regularly.
[19:37:02] * TheMightyBuzzard knows many seemingly random facts
[19:37:34] <sea> Can the layer of mush beneath a rainforest become hot enough to ignite, too? Or does the evaporation take the heat away and keep it under control? It's fairly moist and wet, typically
[19:38:14] <swiss> TheMightyBuzzard: honestly, the women we have in security (that get the jobs) are about the same calibur as them men. And the ones who can stand the culture are fine. The ones who can't are just much more vocal than the men with their complaints.
[19:38:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> the water content would keep it under control i'd think
[19:39:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> swiss, i know female marines were more hardcore than my army ass even if i could out-lift them.
[19:39:28] <sea> Well, if bacteria can release heat, surely they can take in heat and do stuff with it, right? What sort of garbage should I gather together to build a cooling system?
[19:40:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> sea, i don't actually know of ANY endothermic bacteria.
[19:40:15] <swiss> TheMightyBuzzard: same sentiment, but less so.
[19:40:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[19:40:58] <swiss> There's another issue, which is glorifying them
[19:41:42] <swiss> on my competition team for cyber defense, we had a girl go with us to nationals. She wasn't very good, had panic attacks, etc. Ended up being extremely mediocre, and interviewed poorly
[19:41:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> equality means equality. no special treatment or consideration. racial, sexual, period.
[19:42:02] <swiss> and if they showed everyone's interviews, she wouldn't have looked stupid
[19:42:14] <swiss> but they interviewed the top of the guys, and then her
[19:42:31] <swiss> so it looked like she was even stupider than she was, because they don't interview the stupid guys
[19:42:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod, affirmative sexism
[19:43:13] <swiss> the problem was that they encouraged sexism by trying to eliminate it
[19:43:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> sea, you could use the heat to power a cooling device. not without major energy loss though.
[19:44:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> swiss, they weren't trying to eliminate it. they were practicing it.
[19:44:34] <swiss> they wanted to show "women in the industry"
[19:44:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> their twisty little brains just won't let them admit that.
[19:44:52] <swiss> and do a segment on how wonderful it was that we weren't being sexist
[19:45:08] <swiss> i'm gonna go get lunch, bbiab
[19:45:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> enjoy
[19:48:39] <sea> There's probably a sequence of pipes that I can build that will cool this place down.
[19:51:23] <sea> put all the pipes together in just the right way, and add heat on one end, the liquid expands and moves a little this way, which then pulls on the rest of the liquid over there, which then gets a few nifty eddies and starts moving the other way and ends up pushing on that liquid over there and causing it to stand still long enough to evaporate and before you know it, the whole thing is moving and doing strange things and nobody will
[19:51:23] <sea> really know why
[19:53:36] <sea> add a water snail or two and make sure it gets plenty of oxygen and sunlight so that algae can grow, and there's a whole miniature little swamp thing going on
[19:53:45] -!- FunPika [FunPika!~FunPika@Soylent/Staff/Wiki/FunPika] has joined #Soylent
[19:53:45] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v FunPika] by juggler
[19:54:06] * sea wonders if goldfish can eat algae
[19:56:01] <sea> oh, wait, it's CO2 not oxygen
[19:59:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> dunno about goldfish but ple...pla... algae eaters will.
[20:00:51] <sea> ummm
[20:04:16] <sea> My oceanography is enormously foggy, but air and water behave in similar ways near room temperature, right? With the exception of surface tension and that sort of thing. This place that I'm in is full of air, I hope, so does that mean that I can pretend I'm in a lake right now and work from there to deduce ways to keep the temperature down?
[20:11:26] <sea> oooh, if I move this desk in just the right way, I can make a kind of basin, and that might act like an ocean basin to keep the cold air in, rather than letting it spread out across the whole room
[20:15:47] <TK> Except for the human-sized space heater sitting at said desk
[20:16:30] <sea> yeah but I figure the heated air goes up and sloshes around near the ceiling. I'm not sure how to get it to come down, though, because the windows are below the ceiling by maybe 4 feet
[20:17:45] <sea> I was thinking I could make a big funnel, so the heated air would be forced to accelerate through it, and then I could bend the top of the funnel down, and the accelerated air would have enough energy to come down to level of the window
[20:19:56] <mechanicjay> sea: I have solved this exact problem in the past....
[20:20:02] <sea> what did you do?
[20:20:11] <mechanicjay> I purchased an air conditioner, installed it and turned it on.
[20:20:17] <TK> After reading the backlog of comments: You're trying to make a bacteria and garbage powered heat engine?
[20:20:28] <sea> oh, no I just thought that would be nifty
[20:20:42] <sea> Maybe some other time. I'm no good with engines anyway
[20:20:43] <mechanicjay> ...sorry
[20:21:15] <TK> Your options depend on your climate
[20:21:23] <TK> !weather sea
[20:21:34] <TK> !weather ORD
[20:21:58] <TK> ~weather ORD
[20:22:09] <TK> I really need to start rememberthing these
[20:22:32] <sea> Well, I have a fan.
[20:22:59] <sea> I'm not going to be able to buy an air conditioning machine, or build a mountain range around the house (that's another solution), but maybe I can calculate the best direction to point the fan
[20:23:49] <TK> 2 fans + 2 windows
[20:23:50] <ciri> 3
[20:24:08] <sea> Siri is really bad at maths
[20:24:12] <sea> Ciri
[20:24:26] <sea> Ummm
[20:24:36] <sea> I think pointing the fan at myself is the best that I can do
[20:24:45] <sea> It may be hot, but I don't /feel/ hot..
[20:24:52] <sea> This is the Zen solution.
[20:25:00] <sea> I have eliminated my perception of the problem.
[20:28:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's cooler because of the evaporative cooling of your sweat drying in the breeze
[20:28:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> even in above body temp ambient temperature situations.
[20:28:49] <sea> Yeah, and I only have to drink water occasionally to power the engine.
[20:29:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> and salt, so fritos or something to snack on too.
[20:29:24] <sea> Ooh, salt, hm
[20:30:00] <sea> Do you think there's an easy way to increase the density of the hot air, and decrease the density of the cold air? Maybe by spraying perfume around or something?
[20:30:35] <TK> close all the doors and windows
[20:30:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> cool the hot air and heat the cold air.
[20:30:48] <sea> :\
[20:30:48] <TK> you won't like it, but it will increase the pressure
[20:31:11] <sea> I honestly think that this room was built upside-down.
[20:31:37] <TK> Quick question: Is there tile on the ceiling, and are you sitting on a raised floor?
[20:31:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> ideal fan placement is actually beneath you blowing up. makes for waffle butt though if you can find something strong enough to hold you while passing the air through.
[20:31:58] <sea> The cold air sloshes around near the floor and goes right out the door, while the hot air is stuck in a silly layer near the ceiling. There are no tiles on the ceiling, and the floor is not raised
[20:33:16] <sea> If this were water, this place would be a death-trap.
[20:34:44] <sea> There'd be an anoxic layer of death near the ceiling, and everything else would be stable and dull..I can imagine a situation where coral would grow on the floor in the nutrient-rich water, were it not so cold there. This is so backwards hahaha
[20:36:50] <NCommander> SHIT
[20:36:51] * NCommander swears
[20:37:15] * NCommander accidently typed in #irpg :-/
[20:41:03] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Family's Pathologists Have Examined Michael Brown's Corpse - http://sylnt.us - no-foia-petition-required
[20:42:02] <sea> okay, I have an idea!
[20:42:49] <sea> You know shark's teeth? They're curved, so it's easy for things to flow across them in one direction, but hard to go back the other way. Maybe I can build something like that and stick it on the walls to encourage airflow in directions that I would like.
[20:45:31] <swiss> i want to see something that will open every window in a house (sliders) and turns on a house fan
[20:45:34] <swiss> then closes everything
[20:45:38] <TK> The bulk of fluid flow does not occur at the boundary layer (near a surface)
[20:46:16] <sea> Okay then, I give up
[20:46:27] <TK> Your flow-fins could work as a cooling fins though
[20:46:45] <sea> Do you know how to make a flow-fin?
[20:46:50] <TK> no idea
[20:46:55] <sea> me neither
[20:48:24] <TK> With a passive system, the best you could do is deflect
[20:49:27] <TK> Do you live in an arid clime?
[20:49:50] <sea> Yeah, very dry and very hot.
[20:50:33] <sea> Right now there's no wind at all, too. Everything is as still as Lucy Westenra was in the tomb.
[20:50:47] <swiss> a house fan + window openers would help solve some issues
[20:50:54] <swiss> especially if you had good insulation
[20:50:59] <sea> This happens often here, I can't remember the meteorology of it, but there's usually a high pressure system over the island
[20:51:19] <sea> I haven't closed the windows in a decade
[20:51:35] <TK> Do you have a bucket of water and a stationary fan?
[20:51:38] <swiss> outside is 5+ degrees cooler, windows automatically open, house fan turns on pulling outside air in through the windows, windows shut
[20:51:42] <sea> Except when a storm came this one time. Then the window board actually fell off when I tried to reopen it
[20:51:49] <sea> Yeah, I have buckets of water.
[20:51:58] <TK> Put one between you and the fan
[20:52:25] <TK> So that the airflow goes directly over the surface of the water
[20:52:30] <TK> the more surface area the better
[20:52:44] <sea> I will have to reorganize the area to get a surface between the fan and I
[20:52:44] <TK> You want to make an arid, low pressure region above the water
[20:53:13] <TK> That's about the best i can think of
[20:53:28] <sea> That will encourage lots of evaporation, won't that make it harder for the fan to cool /me/?
[20:53:41] <sea> My swear can't evaporate as well if the air from the fan is already very moist
[20:53:50] <sea> seat*
[20:53:52] <sea> sweat*
[20:53:53] <TK> Evaporating the water takes energy (heat) out of the air
[20:54:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> sit in the water.
[20:54:22] <TK> So the air heading towards you should be a bit cooler than the surrounding air
[20:54:27] <sea> Hold on, evaporating the water takes energy out of the /water/
[20:54:39] <sea> and it puts it in the water vapor, which is then blown right at me
[20:54:44] <TK> takes energy out of the air, and puts it into the water
[20:54:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> phase change takes energy out of the water, the water takes energy out of the air
[20:54:57] <TK> liquid water + energy = water vapor
[20:54:58] <sea> The buzzard guy has it right.
[20:55:27] <sea> If I somehow forced water vapor to condense into the bucket, that would cool the air
[20:55:42] <sea> but then there's heat of condensation and I'm not sure how that comes in
[20:55:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, that would actually heat the air.
[20:56:01] <TK> Do you boil water by putting it in the freezer?
[20:56:45] <sea> No you have to heat the water to make it evaporate, hrm. but once it does evaporate, it cools more, so you have to add more heat
[20:56:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> phase change is a heat cheat. 32f water can be either frozen or liquid but it has to lose a lot of energy to go from liquid to frozen and remain the same temp.
[20:56:58] <sea> So if it's constantly evaporating, I guess the water itself is getting constantly cooler
[20:57:24] <sea> If I then sat /in/ the water, then it could be my heatsink and I'd feel better
[20:57:35] <TK> No, the water is getting "hotter" (really it's just getting more energetic), the heat that it is gaining is coming from the surrounding air
[20:57:57] <TK> See what TheMightyBuzzard said
[20:58:27] <sea> What heat that it's gaining? The heat is leaving the liquid form and flying off as water vapor, the air is getting more energetic, not the bucket
[20:58:36] <sea> heated molecules*
[21:00:07] <TK> No, the water is getting more energetic. The total energy of the system doesn't change
[21:00:19] <TK> Air is losing energy (as heat)
[21:00:34] <TK> Water is gaining energy (as enthalpy(?))
[21:00:42] <sea> How could the water possibly get more energetic? If that were true, then evaporation would heat the remaining water, leading to more evaporation, and the feedback would lead to the entire bucket suddenly vaporizing all at once.
[21:00:45] <TK> (Ignore kinetic energy)
[21:01:28] <TK> Evaporation doesn't heat, evaporation cools
[21:01:33] <TK> Remember what sweat does
[21:01:59] <sea> Yeah, and so the bucket of water must be getting colder as the most energetic molecules leave it in water vapor form
[21:02:18] <sea> and then the fan will blow those heated water molecules right at me
[21:02:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> the water in the tub loses energy. the water that transforms to vapor gains energy but not heat. the air gains nothing but water vapor.
[21:02:42] <TK> ^This
[21:03:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> then the air and water in the tub try to equalize, cooling the air and warming the water back to ambient temp
[21:03:38] <sea> Hm, well I suppose the air is already evaporated, so when more molecules join it, they're just joining the flock and not increasing the average temperature at all
[21:03:59] <sea> okay so the air becomes more humid and the water bucket becomes cooler.
[21:06:04] <sea> What happens next? More humid air should make it harder for my sweat to evaporate, so I might feel hotter still
[21:06:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> it does. eventually the air will become saturated and not absorb any more water.
[21:07:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> assuming a sealed room which would lead to you running out of oxygen
[21:07:56] <sea> well, the room isn't sealed. How does increasing the humidity make the air cooler?
[21:08:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> one has nothing to do with the other
[21:09:06] <sea> I'm so confused. Why am I putting a bucket next to the fan, then?
[21:09:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> the air is cooled because the bucket and the water's surface also act as a heatsink to equalize the temperatures of the water and the air.
[21:09:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> two things happening independently of each other at the same time.
[21:09:50] <sea> Well let me think
[21:11:15] <sea> I can see that blowing dry air over a surface water leads to more evaporation. If the water gets cooler, though, maybe you get slightly less evaporation, I suppose the air will also dump some of its heat into the water
[21:12:04] <sea> Okay, so in order to counteract the cooling caused by evaporation, the air has to cool at the same rate the water is cooling by evaporation, in order to heat it back up
[21:12:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> eventually, in a sealed room, you would reach a saturation point at which the air would absorb no more water.
[21:12:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> and cooling would stop then
[21:13:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> but you would also be dead from running out of oxygen, so would not have to worry about that.
[21:13:15] <sea> I'm secretly a very advanced prokaryote.
[21:13:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> unsealed room would rise in humidity but would never reach a saturation point because of the leaks.
[21:13:39] <sea> How much cooling will there be? The water doesn't evaporate that quickly, so maybe it only cools the air a little bit.
[21:13:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, basically
[21:14:17] <sea> but how much? How much heat is required to evaporate 1 gram of water?
[21:14:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> if you used ice and had all those calories plus the two phase changes, you'd get a LOT more bang for your buck.
[21:14:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> 1 calorie
[21:15:13] <sea> 1 calorie? I thought that was how much you needed to increase the temperature of that gram by 1 degree
[21:15:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> i think, could be wrong
[21:16:01] <sea> ah, maybe I should think in terms of the bucket. It will take a lot of heat to evaporate the whole bucket
[21:16:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> actually yeah. i'm not sure how many calories it takes to phase change a gram
[21:16:34] <TK> it's the heat of vaporization
[21:16:43] <sea> so I just divide 'a lot' by the amount of time it takes for the whole bucket to evaporate.
[21:16:45] <TK> lemme get my charts
[21:16:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> right, and generally cold tap water is going to be 30F or more below ambient temp
[21:17:16] <sea> and then I have to add in the original temperature of the water, hrm
[21:17:26] <sea> or subtract it from 'a lot'
[21:18:02] <TK> btw, I probably should have stated this before, but: I do not guarantee that the total rate of cooling will be equal to or greater than "a lot" or "enough"
[21:18:32] <sea> Well that just means that I need a bigger bucket.
[21:18:44] <TK> or a bigger fan, or cooler water
[21:18:51] <sea> Or a way to make the surface area very large.
[21:19:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> https://en.wikipedia.org
[21:19:56] <monopoly> ^ 04Wiki: 03Evaporative cooler: An evaporative cooler (also swamp cooler, desert cooler and wet air cooler) is a device that cools air through the evaporation of water. Evaporative cooling differs from typical air conditioning systems which use vapor-compression or abs...
[21:21:44] * sea is attempting to visualize a topological nightmare bucket.
[21:22:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> visualize a car radiator
[21:23:14] <sea> I could stack a couple of water-filled plates, I guess
[21:23:49] <sea> Could I get a sponge, dip it in a bucket of water so it always has more to soak up, then bore a couple of holes in it to increase the surface area?
[21:24:00] <sea> I happen to have a very large sponge.
[21:24:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> be better off putting a radiator above the bucket and using a fish tank pump to continually spill water over it
[21:24:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> blow the fan through the radiator and you've got a swamp cooler
[21:24:55] <sea> Well with a pump maybe a mist fountain kinda thing would be best
[21:25:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[21:25:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> plenty of ways to optimize
[21:25:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> also why it helps, if your ac is barely managing to cool hour house, to put a sprinkler squirting at it and waste some water.
[21:26:03] <sea> hold on a second
[21:26:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> the outside condenser unit i mean
[21:26:09] <sea> What's the surface area of the typical cat?
[21:26:23] <swiss> cat cooling?
[21:26:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> no idea. mine are all atypically large
[21:26:32] <sea> This one has a lot of fur, and each hair has it's own surface..
[21:26:41] <swiss> please diagram this
[21:26:42] <sea> If I soaked the cat and sat it next to the fan, I might have something.
[21:26:46] <swiss> i want to post it on my cubicle wall
[21:27:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> you could conceivably freeze the cat like that though i think the exercise it got while shredding your face would cause enough heat buildup to prevent that.
[21:27:21] <chromas> You'll have an angry cat and scratches
[21:27:34] <sea> It would be great fun, though.
[21:28:07] <chromas> TheMightyBuzzard: are you saying he would have cat scratch fever?
[21:28:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> bwa na na na
[21:32:21] <sea> One day I'm going to craft an object with absurd surface area, and hang it from the ceiling with fins so that it swings in the wind
[21:32:24] <sea> I'll use it as an air filter.
[21:32:47] <sea> I might make a few more and leave them around on the ground to capture dust, as well.
[21:32:54] <chromas> Activated carbon?
[21:33:09] <sea> oh
[21:33:30] <sea> well it's not fun anymore when you can go and buy some
[21:34:08] <sea> Anyway the air filter one should ideally be as complicated and pretty as possible, like a decoration, but better.
[21:35:27] <chromas> Strap a heatsink/fan combo to your neck :)
[21:35:37] <sea> YESH! That would be the most awesome necklace EVER!
[21:35:54] <crutchy> better than a perl necklace?
[21:36:09] <sea> The perl necklace induces madness in anyone that wears it
[21:36:20] <sea> It's stashed in an underground vault on mars.
[21:37:06] <crutchy> need to add that to the definition
[21:37:16] <crutchy> ~define perl necklace
[21:37:16] <exec> [soylent] perl necklace: something about autoneurotic asphyxiation
[21:38:08] <crutchy> ~define-add perl necklace, something about autoneurotic asphyxiation. induces madness in anyone that wears it. stashed in an underground vault on mars.
[21:38:09] <exec> definition for term "perl necklace" set to "something about autoneurotic asphyxiation. induces madness in anyone that wears it. stashed in an underground vault on mars."
[21:41:00] <crutchy> ~queue
[21:41:03] <exec> *** SN submission queue: 12
[21:41:03] <exec> *** http://soylentnews.org
[21:41:49] <paulej72> crap
[21:42:05] <paulej72> I wish I was better at writing
[21:42:20] <crutchy> like NC?
[21:42:22] <paulej72> but I am more of a code monkey
[21:42:41] <crutchy> mee too. writing illogically is hard
[21:42:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> Whatcha need written and how many times should i limit myself to saying a variation of the word fuck?
[21:43:03] <paulej72> If I was like NC I could keep the queue filled with one hand tied behind my back
[21:43:15] <paulej72> frack
[21:43:23] <sea> TheMightyBuzzard: Could you write a program that searched for a number for me?
[21:43:25] <paulej72> shazbot
[21:43:28] <crutchy> he only needs his left earlobe
[21:43:38] <paulej72> 2
[21:43:38] <ciri> 3
[21:43:42] <paulej72> found it
[21:43:48] <sea> lol
[21:44:00] <crutchy> your bot trimmed the preceeding 4
[21:44:09] <paulej72> oh that was not your number — sorry
[21:44:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> sea, sure. grep -rIHn 42 .
[21:44:49] <crutchy> sea, what number you looking for? just outta curiousityness
[21:44:51] <paulej72> grep -rIHn /dev/random
[21:46:16] <sea> I'm looking for the number (x,y) in N such that β(x,y,z) = <3141592653589793>, for z >= 0
[21:46:30] <sea> Just for fun.
[21:46:46] <crutchy> so beta could be any function?
[21:46:58] <crutchy> just as long as z >= 0
[21:46:59] <sea> No beta is the Godel β function
[21:47:13] <crutchy> oh. i'm not a mathematician
[21:47:17] <sea> There's a way to solve it and find the (x,y), but I can't be bothered to poke at it right now
[21:47:41] <sea> So I wrote a program to go searching for it. It's easily parallel-ized, but I'm running it just on one core because I don't want the whole room to overheat
[21:47:53] <crutchy> have you googled? i'm sure there's an accademic out there with too much time on his hands that has looked at that problem
[21:47:59] <crutchy> oh
[21:48:14] <sea> It's just for fun. I could have put any numbers in that <>
[21:48:29] <crutchy> looks kinda pi'ish to me
[21:48:30] <sea> A solution is guaranteed to exist, but I want the solution that gives those particular digits, just because.
[21:48:53] <crutchy> i only recognise up to 31459
[21:49:06] <crutchy> ^314159
[21:49:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes, i could write that but no i will not. i'm going to go wash dishes instead.
[21:49:39] <sea> Well I have the algorithm :) I just need lots and lots of cores
[21:49:45] <crutchy> i don't even know what a gobel function looks like
[21:49:54] <crutchy> godel
[21:49:56] <sea> The fancy computer I would have used is being used for weather simulations right now. They don't want me to use it for non-serious work
[21:49:56] <crutchy> fk
[21:50:10] <sea> (define (beta x y n) (remainder x (+ (* n y) y 1)))
[21:50:12] <crutchy> is it a roadrunner?
[21:50:12] <sea> It looks like that.
[21:50:45] <crutchy> hmm i don't even know what's in the top 10 anymore
[21:51:16] <sea> and it turns out that for every finite sequence of natural numbers (a,b,c,...,z), there's an (x,y) that will spit out the sequence when you run n from 0 to (length sequence)
[21:52:48] <crutchy> your time would be better spent solving stokes
[21:53:05] <sea> Fun and idle stuff is more important.
[21:53:26] <sea> You must spend at least half of your time doing nothing, otherwise your brain will die and you'll spend all of your time wishing you were doing something
[21:53:40] <sea> (I just made that up)
[21:53:53] <crutchy> sounds good to me
[21:54:22] <crutchy> up there with 'if you don't eat you don't shit and if you don't shit you die'
[21:55:29] <crutchy> gtg to workipoos. cyas later
[21:56:08] <sea> ciao!
[22:02:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> !todo
[22:02:14] <Bender> todo for themightybuzzard: 1) whip it, whip it good 2) get m2 working 3) argue for the death of Overrated and Underrated 4) IDN support 5) utf8mb4 upgrade 6) queued articles on the submissions page discussion 7) discuss allowing extra html formatting tags in comments
[22:02:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> !done 1
[22:02:19] <Bender> 1 item deleted
[22:04:04] <Lagg> 8) Give Lagg $1
[22:07:30] * NCommander can't make this story work, and would just be pouring fuel on a fire
[22:07:30] <NCommander> bah
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[22:12:11] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Bizarre Worm-Like Fossil Linked to Modern Group of Animals - http://sylnt.us - doesn't-look-like-a-duck
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[23:31:10] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Cisco Terminates 6000 Workers While Buying Back $1.5B In Stock - http://sylnt.us - interesting-arithmetic
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[23:37:28] <Blackmoore> http://theconcourse.deadspin.com
[23:38:29] <paulej72> OK we did a point release today to fix some issue. can you spopt the changes?
[23:38:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> or spot them. we'll take either.
[23:41:30] <paulej72> fat fingered that one
[23:41:58] <paulej72> ok I need food bbiab
[23:45:49] <chromas> Blackmoore: s/dead/meat/
[23:45:49] <exec> <chromas> <Blackmoore> http://theconcourse.meatspin.com
[23:51:29] <Blackmoore> too bad i cant jut remove words.
[23:51:53] <Blackmoore> just pull "UP-THE" out.
[23:59:33] <chromas> exec: s/-up-the//
[23:59:34] <exec> <chromas> <exec> <chromas> <Blackmoore> http://theconcourse.meatspin.com