#Soylent | Logs for 2014-05-12

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[00:04:41] MrBluze|afk is now known as MrBluze
[00:21:24] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - National Hearing Test -- Over the Phone - http://sylnt.us - "can-you-hear-me-now"-is-too-cliche-of-a
[01:50:29] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Hot Coffee Lawsuit Helped Erode the 7th Amendment - http://sylnt.us - third-degree-coffee-tastes-funny
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[02:24:54] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v mrcoolbp] by juggler
[02:25:48] <swiss> juggs|afk: i now appreciate the sr20det
[02:44:23] -!- michealpwalls [michealpwalls!~michealpw@cxnwzhcb-dv1-9-367.hamilton.auracom.net] has joined #Soylent
[02:47:54] <michealpwalls> Anyone have success setting up a slash development environment on Windows? :/
[02:48:50] <swiss> why don't you just run a VM?
[02:49:03] <arti> because he is a masochist
[02:49:12] <michealpwalls> hah, well I suppose but..
[02:49:30] <arti> windows makes stuff like that a real chore
[02:49:48] <michealpwalls> Yea
[02:51:17] <michealpwalls> Can't get the requires working. Have tried activeperl, strawberryperl and git bash's perl.
[02:51:26] <michealpwalls> Had most success with git bash, still though the requires fail :/
[02:53:02] <michealpwalls> For example, Slash.pm: "Can't locate Slash/Constants.pm in @INC" I can change the @INC array with that %PERL5LIB% but like I said, nothing I have tried seems to work :/
[02:53:15] <michealpwalls> Even silly things like listing everysingle slashcode directory path in that array (rofl)
[02:53:20] <michealpwalls> Still bitches that it can't find anything
[02:53:21] * arti pronounces @INC as oink
[02:53:22] <ciri> Downs its downs okay.
[02:55:07] <michealpwalls> I tried various path forms, wondering if the windows Perl isn't reading the path properly (C:\path\to\slash, \\computername\c$\path\to\slash, /c/path/to/slash, and etc.)
[02:55:13] <michealpwalls> Noting seems to satisfy this Slashcode beast :(
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[02:58:36] <swiss> linux should
[02:58:56] <arti> that happening desktop os?
[02:59:14] <michealpwalls> LOL
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[03:08:30] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v Bytram|away] by juggler
[03:21:38] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - First Prosthetic Arm Wired to Muscles Approved - http://sylnt.us - soon-we-wont-need-humans
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[03:30:12] MrBluze is now known as MrBluze|afk
[03:32:24] <michealpwalls> http://pastebin.com
[03:32:47] Bytram|away is now known as Bytram
[03:32:49] <michealpwalls> woe is me on Windows :(
[03:33:53] <michealpwalls> Even when I have the location of Slash/Constants in @INC it still fails to find Slash/Constants.pm....
[03:33:54] <michealpwalls> LOL
[03:35:04] MrBluze|afk is now known as MrBluze
[03:36:08] <michealpwalls> I have a pretty damn nice bash shell on Windows though hehe
[03:38:35] <Bytram> michealpwalls: sounds sweet; what are you using to get bash running on windows?
[03:38:55] <Bytram> btw, watch out with path separators; they're backwards on windows vs linux
[03:39:30] <michealpwalls> git bash (msysgit) and I copied in a bunch of binaries and libraries from mingw
[03:39:55] <michealpwalls> http://msysgit.github.io
[03:40:31] <michealpwalls> Then I installed mingw and merge the binaries like gcc and make into msysgit. Seems to work quite nicely hehe
[03:40:58] <Bytram> may have to look into it. I tried cygwin years ago and it so borked up my system it took me a week to recover. So, I've pulled down unix utils from a number of sources and have most of what I'd use, without using cygwin.
[03:42:06] <michealpwalls> http://msysgit.github.io
[03:42:14] <michealpwalls> That's a nice screen of it
[03:54:39] <NCommander> I thought there were native git ports now
[03:54:58] <michealpwalls> yea but a nice shell hehe
[03:56:48] <michealpwalls> Think it ships with the github client, too
[03:56:55] <michealpwalls> Git Bash
[03:57:08] * NCommander double-takes at the poll
[03:57:18] <michealpwalls> Name poll?
[03:57:23] <michealpwalls> Or that license plate poll?
[03:57:33] <michealpwalls> I didn't get most of the them...
[03:57:36] <michealpwalls> :/
[03:57:37] <ciri> >Spend an hour ago was 12 degrees, but that's not the most accurate measurement around.
[03:57:44] <michealpwalls> NPROMPT, or something? wtf is that? LOL
[03:59:42] <michealpwalls> I was so damned close to a really nice, native Slash dev environment on Windows LOL...
[04:00:10] <michealpwalls> These includes are retarded, I don't get it :/
[04:00:16] <NCommander> michealpwalls, according to the comments, someone *actually* got it working on Windows at one pont
[04:01:49] <michealpwalls> I'm at the point where, I could develop it natively and test it in a vm, basically. That's not really ideal though :/
[04:01:53] <michealpwalls> Not ideal at all LOL
[04:04:42] <NCommander> michealpwalls, I have it running on my laptop sans VM
[04:05:23] <michealpwalls> Do you just use vim then?
[04:05:31] <michealpwalls> I wanted to use Eclipse and hehe
[04:06:17] <michealpwalls> I have Debian on this laptop, although I think that's a barrier really :/
[04:07:40] <michealpwalls> I'll play a bit more with it but I'm pretty close to giving up. I blame society :)
[04:10:27] <NCommander> michealpwalls, I use eclipse and vim
[04:10:37] <NCommander> Depending n what I'm doing
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[05:14:36] * NCommander pedals
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[05:51:33] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Genes and Intelligence: The 3% Solution - http://sylnt.us - still-be-growing-old-disgracefully
[05:51:53] -!- Subsentient has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[05:52:11] -!- Subsentient [Subsentient!~WhiteRat@universe2.us/Subsentient] has joined #Soylent
[05:59:33] <NCommander> The SN manifesto is in the hopper
[05:59:38] <NCommander> It goes live at UTC 20:00
[06:01:25] * NCommander pokes Subsentient
[06:01:36] * Subsentient pokes NCommander
[06:01:47] <NCommander> Subsentient, how's life
[06:01:56] <Subsentient> NCommander: It's fucking great.
[06:01:56] <Subsentient> http://www.mediafire.com
[06:02:07] <Subsentient> Get it while it's hot :^D
[06:02:11] <NCommander> Subsentient, what is it?
[06:02:23] * NCommander notes it looks like a RPM based distro just based on the architecture name
[06:02:25] <Subsentient> NCommander: My private/friends/acuqaintences distro
[06:02:32] <Subsentient> It's source based
[06:02:51] <NCommander> neat
[06:03:07] * NCommander looks forward to community feedback on the manifesto
[06:05:30] <MrBluze> Subsentient: if u design an instant-on kernel, can u support QT? :) :) :)
[06:05:39] <Subsentient> MrBluze: lol maybe
[06:05:50] <Subsentient> I don't like C++ and I'm mad at Qt for providing no C bindings
[06:06:36] <MrBluze> well it would save writing an abstraction layer
[06:07:25] <NCommander> Subsentient, http://soylentnews.org
[06:07:43] <Subsentient> NCommander: nice
[06:07:50] <MrBluze> .. an instant on with QT (or GTK or something) and some kind of DB -> perfect
[06:07:59] <NCommander> MrBluze, sounds like QNX
[06:08:55] <MrBluze> it does a bit
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[06:18:19] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v Landon] by juggler
[07:02:21] <cykros> so Radio Free Albemuth has been made into a movie and will be out on june 27
[07:02:49] <cykros> one of these days they'll run out of PKD books to make into movies, but for now, they should still have plenty
[07:20:46] * NCommander needs to work on the business plan
[07:20:47] <NCommander> :-(
[07:23:01] * chromas offers NCommander a perl necklace
[07:23:06] <arti> lol
[07:23:12] * NCommander groans
[07:23:43] <chromas> Okay, I'll show myself out
[07:23:49] <chromas> Or aqu4 can do it for me
[07:25:55] <NCommander> chromas, http://soylentnews.org
[07:26:01] * NCommander is a manifesto tease
[07:28:58] <chromas> Cool
[07:33:53] * chromas was hoping to find it on the wiki but it's probably on the secret one
[07:36:01] <NCommander> chromas, its going live in an article at 20:00 UTC
[07:36:02] <ciri> 0 5000 6752 9232 20 0 4180 580 - S+ pts/0 0:00 \_ sh -c ps fl.
[07:36:53] <chromas> Yeah, I guess I just came too early
[07:37:02] <chromas> You did say you're a tease
[07:40:53] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Music Distributor Claims Monetization Rights to Public Domain Speech - http://sylnt.us - speech-is-free,-listening-requires-a-fee
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[09:09:32] * NCommander paces
[09:31:06] * arti prods
[09:33:43] <arti> this is so awesome: http://www.npr.org
[09:36:36] <chromas> I think our ice cream 'truck' had that song last year
[09:37:52] * arti has an urge to watch song of the south
[09:38:04] <arti> wonder when the HD remaster is coming out
[09:39:53] * NCommander screams in frustation
[09:40:40] <NCommander> https://seattle.craigslist.org
[09:40:43] <NCommander> I'm tempted
[09:40:45] <NCommander> Sorely tempted
[09:41:10] <chromas> Because it's slashdot cyan?
[09:41:10] <arti> heh "cumins"
[09:41:30] <arti> looks like keyword soup
[09:41:44] <arti> BUY sell TIRES wheels shiny EXPENSIVE
[09:41:54] <chromas> The cumin(s) make give it a Mexican spin
[09:42:02] <chromas> s/make //
[09:42:03] <SedBot> <chromas> The cumin(s) give it a Mexican spin
[09:42:08] * NCommander deep sighs
[09:42:11] <NCommander> I fucking hate this
[09:42:22] <arti> ??
[09:42:24] * NCommander wouldn't have sold his Hyundai Tuscon if I knew I would be buying a car just four months later
[09:42:47] <NCommander> Well, technically I leased it to a friend, but I can't in good conscious ask for it back now
[09:42:55] <arti> nah, just report it stolen
[09:43:02] <NCommander> arti, I'm the leinholder on it
[09:43:10] * NCommander could repossess it if need be but :-(
[09:43:15] <NCommander> But I'm not a dick to my friends
[09:43:24] <arti> that's the best time to be one!
[09:43:27] <arti> they never see it coming
[09:44:04] <chromas> But they'l feel it when it hits
[09:44:09] * NCommander whacks arti
[09:44:21] <NCommander> on the plus side, I did find a legal group to hire w.r.t. incorporation
[09:44:22] <arti> :D
[09:44:34] * arti found some new music tonight
[09:44:47] <arti> i got some new shoes (and sandals) this weekend
[09:45:00] <arti> i have a bad habit of keeping my shoes too long
[09:45:07] <arti> "nope, not slick yet"
[09:45:29] * NCommander bought his current sandals in Panama just a few days before altslashdot got started
[09:45:46] <arti> noice, are they hand made or something?
[09:46:02] <arti> i've heard children do tight weeves
[09:46:13] <arti> weaves*
[09:46:21] <NCommander> I'm going to call Harbor COmpliance for their free consultation
[09:46:24] <NCommander> Can't hurt
[09:46:52] <arti> :D
[09:47:09] <arti> how's errthang else?
[09:47:13] <arti> you still smoking?
[09:47:17] <NCommander> arti, yeah
[09:47:29] <arti> you know, if you smoke after sex, it means you're doing it too fast
[09:47:29] <NCommander> I just feel like I"m under a LOT of stress
[09:47:30] <ciri> I feel like it should work just fine, since you mentioned john candy.
[09:47:47] * arti pets ciri
[09:47:51] * NCommander is not talking about his sex life (or lack of one) on a public IRC channel :-P
[09:48:11] <chromas> NCommander: s/blic/bic/
[09:48:11] <SedBot> <chromas> <NCommander> is not talking about his sex life (or lack of one) on a pubic IRC channel :-P
[09:48:12] <arti> we can go to a private one if you like
[09:48:28] <arti> o.~
[09:48:45] <NCommander> o_o;
[09:48:57] * NCommander hides from flirting arti
[09:49:11] <arti> oh come on, if you use your fingers first it doesn't hurt
[09:49:20] * NCommander blinks
[09:49:23] * NCommander blinks more
[09:49:27] * NCommander blinks even more
[09:49:34] <NCommander> arti, wtf?
[09:49:38] <NCommander> I think you locked my brain up
[09:50:01] <arti> :D
[09:50:19] <arti> so wtf, you're headed to seattle now?
[09:50:21] -!- Konomi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[09:50:23] <NCommander> arti, in Seattle
[09:50:28] <arti> aaah
[09:50:31] * arti used to live there
[09:50:39] <NCommander> I used to live near Portland, I'm here for work
[09:50:45] <NCommander> Tempted to buy a truck here, then drive it back to New Hampshire
[09:50:53] <arti> brave
[09:51:02] <NCommander> I have an annual tradition of driving coast to coast
[09:51:11] <NCommander> arti, where are you based now?
[09:51:15] <arti> socal
[09:51:28] <NCommander> Well, I'm tempted to get on the Coastal Starlight and go south
[09:51:30] <arti> i make my living with a bunch of simple tricks and nonsense
[09:51:39] <arti> (php)
[09:51:43] <NCommander> Real men use perl
[09:51:44] <NCommander> :-)
[09:51:53] * NCommander actually is unsure of arti's RL gender
[09:51:57] <arti> okay greybeard
[09:52:09] <arti> perl is the hip language of the 90s
[09:52:13] <NCommander> I use python. My beard isn't long enough to be considered a guru
[09:52:20] -!- cubancigar11 [cubancigar11!~73717632@115.113.ryu.uv] has joined #Soylent
[09:52:30] <arti> !decide dude man guy other
[09:52:32] <ciri> The roll of the dice picks: guy.
[09:52:37] <cubancigar11> Is there a reason why mod points expire immediately
[09:52:38] <arti> i am a guy.
[09:52:43] * NCommander resists the urge to make a bad pun on cubancigar11's nick
[09:52:48] <NCommander> cubancigar11, they expire eight hours after being granted
[09:52:51] <cubancigar11> You can :)
[09:52:57] * NCommander smokes cubancigar11
[09:52:59] <NCommander> :-)
[09:53:02] <arti> :O
[09:53:07] <arti> i was thinking clinton
[09:53:15] <NCommander> arti, I'm half Cuban, its my birthright
[09:53:25] <arti> oh dude, there is a cuban place in burbank
[09:53:29] <cubancigar11> But shouldn't they expire 8 hours after the user first logs-in?
[09:53:36] <arti> i discovered a whole new food group
[09:53:37] <NCommander> cubancigar11, they're only granted to logged in users
[09:53:43] <arti> these potato and meat ball things
[09:53:46] <arti> ridiculous
[09:53:59] <NCommander> Specifically, if the user has clicked something within 5 minutes, they're considered mod-point elligable
[09:54:00] <ciri> I'll be jumping back in in a position specifically created where i can already tell the names, that they're not all like xxlebron420xx.
[09:54:15] <arti> hmm
[09:54:17] <cubancigar11> Hmm...
[09:54:21] <NCommander> cubancigar11, so if you click something, it is possible you end up a moderator, then don't see it
[09:54:28] <NCommander> The mod algo needs a fucking re-rewrite
[09:54:35] <NCommander> I just have not had time
[09:55:04] <NCommander> I likely won't until post-incorporation, and the current system works "well enough" that I'm don't think I need to take time off work to do it
[09:55:37] <cubancigar11> I am seeing a steep drop in modded comments, and a lot (most) of the good comments remain hidden at 1
[09:55:48] <arti> that's where real men browse
[09:55:56] * chromas browses at -1
[09:55:58] <NCommander> cubancigar11, the system going to get a rewrite, but I don't know when
[09:56:06] <arti> i wonder what /b/ is considered
[09:56:14] <NCommander> The new system won't have mod point expiration at all, I wrote about it awhile ago
[09:56:20] <cubancigar11> NCommander: got it
[09:56:31] <NCommander> cubancigar11, let me see if I can dig it up
[09:56:48] <chromas> arti: /b/ is -∞
[09:57:31] <cubancigar11> NCommander: i am not sure if this is a problem that can be solved my rewrite(s).
[09:57:56] <cubancigar11> NCommander: I was thinking maybe we need more moderators...
[09:58:27] <NCommander> cubancigar11, http://soylentnews.org
[09:58:49] <NCommander> cubancigar11, the system I proposed is a *drastic* depature to the traditional /. model
[09:59:02] <cubancigar11> NCommander: Hmm... okay.
[09:59:32] <NCommander> cubancigar11, what did you propose?
[09:59:42] * NCommander needs to find some SN hacking time
[09:59:47] <NCommander> I can implement some of these changes relatively easy
[10:00:25] <cubancigar11> NCommander: There is yet another thing that is bugging me: a lot of good comments that are posted as reply are hidden while the first comment is prominently visible. I know this is how slash worked years ago, but it presents a bad picture to new users.
[10:00:45] <chromas> The new system could pass comments through bogofilter or something to give an initial score, then the number of points could have a logorithmic relationship with the final score
[10:00:56] <NCommander> cubancigar11, the discussion system rework *did* get completed, and is slated to go out on the next major update
[10:00:58] <chromas> Actually, youalready mentioned spamassassin
[10:01:04] <cubancigar11> NCommander: I haven't thought about drastic changes. I will think about it and get back here...
[10:01:17] <NCommander> cubancigar11, http://dev.soylentnews.org
[10:01:27] <NCommander> cubancigar11, choose "Improved Threading" from the dropdown to see the new system
[10:02:26] <cubancigar11> This is awesome!
[10:02:42] <NCommander> cubancigar11, what D2 should have been
[10:02:43] <NCommander> :-)
[10:03:02] <cubancigar11> :)
[10:03:12] <NCommander> cubancigar11, we took the very old slashdot collaspable comments greasemonkey script, and I reworked it into a server side script, then paulej72 made it do CSS voodoo with the stub code I implemented for "Improved Threaded" in Slashdot
[10:03:13] <cubancigar11> Are you planning to make it default?
[10:03:15] <NCommander> er, slashcode
[10:03:17] <NCommander> cubancigar11, yeah
[10:03:25] <NCommander> cubancigar11, it gracefully degrades to "Threaded" if JS is MIA
[10:04:05] <cubancigar11> You guys are awesome!
[10:04:05] <NCommander> cubancigar11, its not a fix to the moderation problem, but it *does* fix the discussion system
[10:04:15] <cubancigar11> Yes, indeed!
[10:04:22] <NCommander> cubancigar11, honestly, this is what D2 should have been
[10:04:24] <ciri> Quite honestly, i had some dudes walking around with this japanese dude in upper la nosca by the gods?
[10:04:33] <NCommander> (if you saw how D2 was implemented under the hood, you'd be horrorified)
[10:04:39] <arti> d2?
[10:04:44] <NCommander> Its something like 20k lines of code, and 100kib of javascript
[10:04:50] <NCommander> arti, Slashdot's current default discussion system
[10:04:54] <arti> aaaaah
[10:04:59] <arti> wieder was gelernt
[10:05:04] <NCommander> We've purged all that code out
[10:05:21] <NCommander> (I got a lot of it, paulej2 cleaned the templates; by doing so, we got our page loadsizes to dial up friendly)
[10:05:57] <arti> that's pretty sweet
[10:06:03] <NCommander> cubancigar11, this should go live on 06/01 with our normal bimonthly releases
[10:06:56] <cubancigar11> Okay. Thanks.
[10:07:14] <NCommander> cubancigar11, yeah, if you know perl, feel free to join the dev team :-)
[10:07:17] <NCommander> We can use fresh blood
[10:07:55] <arti> what do you guys do with the old blood?
[10:08:04] <NCommander> cubancigar11, (second note, the first draft of the manifesto goes out today (Monday) at 20:00 UTC)
[10:08:12] <NCommander> arti, use it to keep Apache 1.3 running
[10:08:19] <arti> good answer
[10:08:21] <chromas> Blood and bacon
[10:08:21] <NCommander> Old Apache needs old blood scarifices
[10:08:36] <chromas> snackrifice
[10:08:37] <arti> well, the most important part of those is the order in which the candles are lit
[10:08:48] * arti usually uses goat
[10:09:19] <NCommander> arti, that's why I did the initial blood sacrifices in Panama. Figured that if I summoned a greater daemon or something, keep it far enough away from major military countries :-)
[10:09:37] <NCommander> cubancigar11, so you plan to hang around IRC or disappear into the neither
[10:09:39] <NCommander> *neather
[10:09:42] <NCommander> *nether
[10:09:43] * arti has an urge to play rifts
[10:09:44] <NCommander> fuck me
[10:10:28] * chromas suppreses joke
[10:11:08] * arti let it slide
[10:11:36] * NCommander smokes another cigar
[10:12:14] * NCommander is debating if I should let the manifesto escape early
[10:12:19] <cubancigar11> Disappear, since I am in the office.
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[10:12:54] <NCommander> cubancigar11, close the door, and pretend you work for us!
[10:13:10] <chromas> We will pay you tokens
[10:13:16] <NCommander> from the manifesto:
[10:13:16] <NCommander> Diversity will be respected and encouraged as an important aspect of our community, as groupthink can easily prevent people from seeing other, perhaps better, ideas.
[10:13:16] <NCommander> Except as required by law, no one will be banned or have their comments deleted due to stating an opinion, no matter how unpopular or repugnant it is. We will not ban or silence a user for merely stating an opinion.
[10:13:18] * NCommander laughs evilly
[10:13:31] <cubancigar11> Can't close the door, in a meeting room, agile and all!
[10:13:43] <NCommander> cubancigar11, fuck. agile.
[10:13:52] * NCommander has dealt with telecommuting agile
[10:13:53] <ciri> Hm...seems to be positive - and you turn it in a meeting room, agile and all my machines would only be connectable through that.
[10:14:03] <NCommander> ANother small snipit
[10:14:04] <NCommander> A true community can only exist when communication can flow in both directions.
[10:14:04] <NCommander> The right of our community to criticise, make suggestions, and help us improve our site will be respected. No staff or leader will ever be above criticism.
[10:14:33] <arti> how can you be fuhrer then?
[10:14:37] <arti> o/
[10:14:56] <arti> or is it the other arm /o
[10:15:23] <chromas> He technically won't be above but he retains the sole right to sudo when needed
[10:15:23] <arti> the hydra: /o/
[10:15:23] <ciri> Was going to make you buy their new crap by buying their older crap instead. That is an outcry right now but i'll be grabbing some different classes.
[10:15:25] <NCommander> GIven what happened to the fuhrer, you'd have to be mad to want it
[10:15:46] <arti> big plans
[10:15:51] * NCommander staples the "I Godwin'ed #Soylent" award to arti
[10:16:14] * NCommander is tempted to buy Kung Fu Panda and watch it
[10:16:27] <arti> it's not bad if you like jack black
[10:16:42] <chromas> Are you roaming the shops?
[10:16:50] <NCommander> chromas, just my amazon account
[10:16:59] * NCommander notes he prefers Amazon since they *don't* block you if you're not in the US
[10:17:33] -!- cubancigar11 has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[10:17:35] * NCommander goes to actually smoke
[10:17:35] <chromas> Yeah, most of our web sites don't realize other countries have money they could be taking
[10:17:47] <arti> "our"
[10:18:01] <chromas> Well, US megacorps like viacom
[10:18:18] <arti> wonder if they have a private army
[10:18:35] <chromas> What cubancigar11 could do is put an IRC client on his phone
[10:18:40] <chromas> That way he could keep us in his pants
[10:19:20] <chromas> And he could whip it out during meetings and stuff but nobody would mind
[10:20:19] <arti> add it to the memo
[10:20:26] <arti> we'll discuss it next chance we have
[10:20:53] <chromas> !memo
[10:20:56] <chromas> dunno
[10:21:51] <chromas> !tell cubancigar11 to install an IRC client on his phone and keep it in his pants when the boss is looking
[10:21:54] <chromas> $tell
[10:22:09] <chromas> doesn't matter, aqu4 ignores me now
[10:23:12] <arti> hahaha
[10:23:55] <chromas> Also got my bot banned from here for making aqu4 do /me's about bacon
[10:24:40] <arti> this is why we cant have nice things
[10:25:42] <chromas> It's slightly amusing. Just do a $sr then put a reversed CTCP action after
[10:26:02] <chromas> But don't get kickbanned if subs comes in
[10:26:53] <chromas> ciri sure talks a lot less now
[10:27:34] * arti has made adjustments
[10:27:44] * chromas also adjusts
[10:28:18] * arti offers coconut banana popsicle
[10:28:59] * chromas accepts said popsicle and teases with it
[10:29:21] <chromas> ciri 's a bit spoiled but !whoup and similar
[10:29:28] <chromas> s/ut/y/
[10:29:29] <SedBot> <chromas> ciri 's a bit spoiled by !whoup and similar
[10:31:58] <arti> i'm going to read a bit
[10:32:02] * arti salutes
[10:32:12] <chromas> See you
[10:32:16] * chromas returns salute
[10:43:12] * NCommander swears
[10:43:34] <chromas> Back to pacing?
[10:55:00] <NCommander> chromas, trying to fix my RL
[10:55:19] * NCommander feels kinda ... broken ...
[10:55:51] <chromas> :(
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[10:59:24] <SirFinkus> mmm, home made alfredo on prosciutto tortellini
[10:59:35] <chromas> homemade++
[10:59:35] <deadpeas> karma - homemade: 1
[11:00:07] <chromas> SirFinkus: at 0200?
[11:00:14] <SirFinkus> sure, why not?
[11:00:18] <chromas> lol
[11:00:48] <SirFinkus> also: holy shit, 2am?
[11:03:04] <chromas> Yep. twotellini
[11:03:44] <SirFinkus> as far as late night snacks go, you could do worse
[11:04:07] <chromas> Yeah' it's not like it's chips or something
[11:04:30] <SirFinkus> default is nachos
[11:04:31] <chromas> Or crisps, for those who have daylight at the moment
[11:04:56] <SirFinkus> but nachos are a special case
[11:05:13] <SirFinkus> because each ingredient you add makes nachos twice as good
[11:05:21] <SirFinkus> past the chips and cheese
[11:05:26] <chromas> So they're digital?
[11:05:37] <chromas> like bits
[11:05:44] <SirFinkus> yeah, sure
[11:05:56] <SirFinkus> chips and cheese are almost never as good as you think they'll be
[11:06:23] <chromas> Need to make the cheese into a sauce
[11:06:38] <SirFinkus> naw
[11:06:44] <chromas> With peppers and stuff
[11:06:59] <SirFinkus> chips, cheese, and beans are a minimum imo
[11:07:29] <SirFinkus> add jalepenos and green onions and you're in business
[11:07:46] <SirFinkus> then add meat and you have "good nachos"
[11:08:30] * chromas adds salsa and puts it all onto a tortilla so when the pile get small enough, it becomes a wrap
[11:08:49] * chromas is a nacho heathen
[11:09:03] <SirFinkus> oh shit, if you make the chips yourself it's a huge multiplyer
[11:09:13] <SirFinkus> but then you're getting out the deep fryer
[11:09:27] <SirFinkus> only really worth it if someone else is doing it for you
[11:09:30] <chromas> Nah, just toss them in the skillet a minute
[11:09:55] <chromas> I know it's a sacrilege
[11:09:59] <SirFinkus> I like flour tortilla chips
[11:10:16] <SirFinkus> idk if that's a thing
[11:10:19] <SirFinkus> but I like them a lot
[11:12:30] <chromas> "my parents were so poor that they fed me ramen noodles and government cheese, but at least they were classy enough to have Folgers or Sanka at home"
[11:12:43] <chromas> ---ethanol-fueled on SN
[11:13:26] <chromas> So, so few people I recognize from /. around here
[11:13:50] <SirFinkus> I just lurked on The Other Site
[11:14:01] * chromas gasps
[11:14:10] <SirFinkus> I know, I'm terrible
[11:14:14] <chromas> a regular gasp, not an English-dubbed anime gasp
[11:15:15] <chromas> I've also poppe over there a few times. Now the cyan is jarring and the red seems right
[11:16:23] <chromas> But don't worry, NC, I don't comment or anything
[11:17:14] <SirFinkus> if I go to slashdot.jp now, does that count?
[11:17:27] <SirFinkus> no beta yet, and run by different guys it seems
[11:17:28] <chromas> That's not dice is it?
[11:17:46] <SirFinkus> OSDN
[11:17:51] <chromas> no dice, no dice
[11:18:01] <chromas> I thought that was part of what they scooped up
[11:18:34] <chromas> Maybe we can join up with them. We'll report what they can't hear and they'll report what we can't hear
[11:19:54] <SirFinkus> looks like they run sourceforge.jp, idk if they're non-profit or not, or if that's even a thing in japan
[11:19:54] <ciri> As you wished...their run defense was solid but their secondary was pretty crowded, though.
[11:20:18] <chromas> The do it for honor, SirFinkus-san
[11:20:26] <SirFinkus> lolk
[11:21:38] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Young Bankers Fed Up With 90-Hour Weeks Move to Startups - http://sylnt.us - they-wont-be-coding-anything-then
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[11:24:38] <chromas> /. doesn't require "block" in <blockquote>
[11:24:53] <chromas> I wonder if that was a post 2009 change
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[11:26:57] <chromas> If there's anything those banker types loathe, it's manual labro
[11:27:20] <chromas> and spelling nazis
[11:31:15] <chromas> So now that I'm running Arch, I see they use everyone's most favorite init. I wonder which one is the best replacement...
[11:33:46] <chromas> I guess subs is missing
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[12:54:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++
[12:54:24] <deadpeas> karma - coffee: 66
[12:58:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> chromas, neither IMO. i still prefer sysv. systemd is slightly easier to use than upstart though.
[12:59:39] <chromas> The thing I don't like about sysv is all the scriptage. Not really its fault though. Somebody needs to invent an api for controlling daemons
[13:00:27] <crutchy> garlic doesn't work on daemons like on vampires
[13:00:55] <crutchy> need an api with super cow powers
[13:01:03] <chromas> instead of needing to hack scripts because every program does the same thing in its own way
[13:01:34] <chromas> but garlic is delicious and keeps rms away from my feet
[13:02:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> that's pretty much what i liked. didn't need to learn a specific way of doing things to drop something in rc.local or even write your own.
[13:03:50] <chromas> suse had a compatibility thing where I could still use service to control daemons
[13:04:27] <chromas> arch don't have that so I had to learn systemctl, which is totally different from sysctl
[13:04:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, not especially complicated though
[13:05:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> enable/disable start/stop/restart
[13:05:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> started playing with the aur yet?
[13:06:40] <chromas> Yes and it's annoyong that pacaur doesn't find some of the stuff listed on the site
[13:06:53] <chromas> anyong
[13:06:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> try yaourt
[13:07:39] <chromas> I found there's a ton of fortune packs I can't install all at once because it says some dependencies are missing
[13:07:42] <chromas> Thanks
[13:07:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> handy even if you're not looking for an aur package because you can forget using sudo with it.
[13:08:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> hrm
[13:08:09] <chromas> I wasn't sure which was best because there are more tools for that than Linux distros
[13:08:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> yup, i dunno which is best either but i know yaourt's been around a while and works well
[13:08:57] <chromas> I wish dropbear had support for sftp
[13:09:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> brb, more coffee
[13:09:48] <chromas> I'll try it when I wake up later since I forgot to install an sshd for remote poking
[13:10:05] <chromas> bedtime computing
[13:11:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> ahh
[13:12:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> nite then. harass me here if you can't find something in the docs or on the wiki.
[13:12:49] <chromas> can't get mouse dpi up either, dev permission issue. not arch specific though and all internet dovs on it are far outdated
[13:13:05] <chromas> s/dovs/docs/
[13:13:05] <SedBot> <chromas> can't get mouse dpi up either, dev permission issue. not arch specific though and all webweb docs on it are far outdated
[13:13:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> logitech mouse?
[13:13:57] <crutchy> fuck me drunk over a barstool siddeways... i didn't think it was possible to guitar cover this song: https://www.youtube.com
[13:14:02] <chromas> coffee++ how is?
[13:14:03] <deadpeas> karma - coffee: 67
[13:14:10] <chromas> yep
[13:14:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> heh, i knew it. same issue here for years.
[13:15:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> some, and by some i mean very few, logitech mise there is a tool that will fix the issue.
[13:15:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> s/mise/mice
[13:15:13] * SedBot offers ThyMyghtaBuzzerd a /
[13:15:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> shaddup
[13:15:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> coffee++
[13:15:36] <deadpeas> karma - coffee: 68
[13:16:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> lemme see if i have it on my laptop
[13:16:22] <chromas> I also had to adjust sudo because that didn't work by default and polkit-kde doesn't work without an aur package
[13:16:34] <chromas> But otherwise it's awesome
[13:17:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> lomoco allegedly works with some logitech mice. mine however is not one of them.
[13:18:16] <chromas> Mine's a 310 or something that I found
[13:19:01] <chromas> It just needs root to set the values but there should be some place to tell udev to set it on boot
[13:19:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> dunno what mine is. gave it to a windows user after i gave up and got a ms mouse.
[13:19:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> loving the irony there too
[13:19:28] <chromas> lol
[13:19:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> hrm....
[13:20:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm probably no help there. me and udev have a hate/hate relationship.
[13:20:12] * chromas installed Arch today and some say "his pants grew three sizes that day"
[13:20:59] <chromas> I did see aur has other inits
[13:21:21] <chromas> Figured subs would have something to say but he's gone
[13:21:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, i completely do not have the desire to risk fucking up a perfectly good system to try them though.
[13:21:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> maybe in a vm
[13:23:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> or maybe when i switch to btrfs in a few months so i can just snapshot backwards.
[13:24:06] <chromas> Is there a way to control that as a regular user?
[13:24:32] <chromas> It would be nice to be able to click a dir and have it snapshot or whatever
[13:25:07] <chromas> or click the family pics folder and turn off redundancy to make room for more pr0n
[13:25:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, definitely a root level thing
[13:26:09] <chromas> But I do like the idea of it. Or hammer. Nobody remembers hammer
[13:26:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> pretty sure snapshots can only be fs-wide too.
[13:27:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> i remember hammer. https://www.youtube.com
[13:27:47] <chromas> haha
[13:28:25] <chromas> Oh that's right. You'd have to make a subvolume and mount it to a folder or something
[13:28:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> yar
[13:28:57] <chromas> I have a confession to make
[13:29:17] <chromas> I used to use reiserfs
[13:29:30] * chromas hangs head in shame
[13:30:07] <chromas> Had uh...issues
[13:30:08] <ciri> Uh....i figure it's cheap enough where it's worth the purchase even if you're interested.
[13:30:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> it was a good fs back in the day from what i read. i always stuck with ext# though cause i had not time for a fs to do strange and new things.
[13:30:44] <chromas> The docs for it had cocky comments
[13:31:05] <chromas> "They actually pay me to do this!"
[13:32:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> see, now i'm wondering
[13:32:16] <chromas> Now I want a network distributed file store
[13:32:56] <chromas> With a dht overlay and digital signatures
[13:33:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> i spose you could try striping+parity across some nfs shares
[13:33:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> damn, now i wanna try that just to be a wiseass
[13:34:26] <chromas> It should work like a p2p program but with certs. Just throw it onto mom's computer and use it's free space
[13:35:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> inverse dropbox then
[13:35:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> or rather push bittorrent
[13:36:07] <chromas> Yeah.
[13:36:25] <chromas> Or freenet without all the privacy latency
[13:38:10] <chromas> When your computer wants the file, it caches amd you have mote redundancy until one needs more space. Folders can have redundancy/importance values to prioritize which get deleted first amd how many copies should remain
[13:39:27] <chromas> Are you trying your idea? :-)
[13:39:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, drinking coffee and watching i dream of jeannie reruns. too early to break things.
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[13:51:31] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Do Markets Degrade Morals? - http://sylnt.us - mr.-betteridge-would-say-no
[14:28:40] MrBluze|afk is now known as MrBluze
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[14:36:42] <MrBluze> i got qca working on qt
[14:37:19] <MrBluze> have to find a way of overcoming MITM attack vulnerability of duffie-hellman technique that doesnt require 3 handshakes
[14:38:21] <crutchy> you know if you shake more than 3 times it may be considered loving thy self
[14:39:14] <crutchy> how are ya anyways mrbluze
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[14:39:33] <MrBluze> hi crutchy
[14:39:40] <MrBluze> thats true crutchy
[14:39:45] <MrBluze> im good thanks, how u goin?
[14:39:45] <crutchy> wb TheMightyBuzzard
[14:39:53] <crutchy> i'm ok
[14:39:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep
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[14:44:31] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v LaminatorX] by juggler
[14:46:41] <weeds> Happy Monday!
[14:47:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> those words, i do not think they belong together
[14:49:01] <weeds> TheMightyBuzzard :)
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[14:49:38] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v Woods] by juggler
[14:57:02] <crutchy> g'day LaminatorX, Woods
[14:57:13] <LaminatorX> Hullo.
[14:57:14] <crutchy> g'day weeds
[14:57:19] <Woods> Hey Crutchy.
[14:57:46] <weeds> Good Morning crutchy
[14:58:01] <weeds> What's up Laminatorx?
[15:06:07] <LaminatorX> My missing father turned up Friday night. It turns out the voicemail system on our home line had gotten reset and was picking up before our answering machine without anybody realizing it.
[15:06:08] -!- mechanicjay [mechanicjay!~jhowe@Soylent/Staff/Sysop/mechanicjay] has joined #Soylent
[15:06:08] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v mechanicjay] by juggler
[15:06:40] <LaminatorX> He had in fact left a message that he was going to lake of the Ozarks for a few days, but on the voicemail system we don't use.
[15:07:24] <LaminatorX> So that was a lot of stress and worry for nothing, but my dad is OK, so I'll take it.
[15:08:40] <Woods> Whew! That is good to hear.
[15:10:40] <weeds> LaminatorX: Great News!
[15:11:31] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Firefox 29 is a Flop; UI Design Trends Only Getting Worse - http://sylnt.us - at-least-everyone-is-on-the-same-bandwagon
[15:14:22] <crutchy> http://irciv.port119.net
[15:14:29] <crutchy> looks kinda minecrafty
[15:16:29] <Woods> Looks like an old IPv4 map to me.
[15:16:39] <Woods> Does that make me a nerd?
[15:17:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> well that's interesting... i'm kind of amazed the rss system works at all. there are key bits that aren't even defined.
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[15:19:59] <MrBluze> i can see a face in that map
[15:24:41] <MrBluze> good progress
[15:26:10] <crutchy> i'm trying to make unit gifs
[15:26:28] <crutchy> to paint on there
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[15:28:20] <MrBluze> what graphics library u using?
[15:28:44] <MrBluze> php has some nice graphics libraries
[15:30:28] <Woods> An actual e-mail conversation....
[15:30:33] <Woods> Them: The password expired.
[15:30:37] <Woods> Me: I reset the password to "aGW427*dgbi3", please notify those who use this system (About 5 people)
[15:30:40] <Woods> They then proceeded to forward that e-mail to everyone in the company...
[15:32:39] <MrBluze> geniuses
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[15:34:29] <Blackmoore> mornin
[15:34:41] <crutchy> MrBluze: gd
[15:35:14] <michealpwalls> LOL Woods
[15:35:16] <michealpwalls> epic
[15:35:29] <Woods> Fortunately, there are only like, 100 employees.
[15:35:37] <michealpwalls> LOL this is me giving up on @INC: http://soylentnews.org
[15:35:40] <michealpwalls> Fucking perl. Peice of shit.
[15:35:45] <MrBluze> gd i used also
[15:36:01] <MrBluze> made dynamic graphic icons back in the days before decent css
[15:36:35] <MrBluze> png will give u a better image .. but maybe bigger file?
[15:36:47] <michealpwalls> MrBluze: Ever checked out <canvas>, an HTML5 element and the associated JavaScript object? It's really cool beans!
[15:36:51] <MrBluze> fast if u limit yourself to 64 colours
[15:37:14] <MrBluze> michealpwalls: i have .. it is good but ... wait and see
[15:39:46] <Blackmoore> coffee++
[15:39:46] <deadpeas> karma - coffee: 69
[15:40:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, oi, don't be hatin on tha perl
[15:40:31] <michealpwalls> :)
[15:40:35] <Blackmoore> i could swear that google showed canvas off in a multi-player zelda like game. entirely inhtml5
[15:40:42] <michealpwalls> The language is nice, but the state of interpreters is pretty pathetic...
[15:40:50] <Blackmoore> but I am at work, and do not have the link here
[15:41:03] <michealpwalls> Don't mind me :P
[15:41:06] <michealpwalls> I'm just tired and cranky hehe
[15:42:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> activeperl or what?
[15:42:08] <ciri> So dude, please escort this man to oblivion.
[15:43:06] <Blackmoore> just get him more coffee and bacon.
[15:43:39] <michealpwalls> Lol more coffee is def. in order :D
[15:44:04] <michealpwalls> Oh man I've tried ActivePerl, Strawberry Perl and had the *most* success with Perl 5.8.8 that's included with msysgit (Part of MinGW)
[15:44:38] <michealpwalls> They all have issues with @INC that I can't figure out, though.. Even sitting in the same dir as Constants.pm, for example, and run perl -e 'use Slash::Constants' will fail. It can't find shit LOL
[15:44:52] <crutchy> michealpwalls: are you trying to get slashcode working with apache2?
[15:44:56] <michealpwalls> Regular libs are all found fine though
[15:45:23] <michealpwalls> Well, I was just tring to test modules with perl by itself :/
[15:46:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> weird
[15:46:16] <crutchy> i set up an apache2 vhost with modperl2 to muck around with slashcode and i had the same problem as you're having
[15:46:25] <michealpwalls> Are *any* of the test.pl scripts supposed to run? For example, *none* of them run here :/
[15:46:33] <michealpwalls> They all throw errors about requires, non can require Slash modules
[15:46:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> Constants shouldn't be in @INC though and perl is going to be case sensitive on paths
[15:47:13] <crutchy> i was going to try to move all pl/pm files into single directory, but it got messy
[15:47:21] <michealpwalls> Yea, I even did that ^
[15:47:31] <michealpwalls> I moved the whole shibang into /usr/share/slashcode and jammed that into my @INC..
[15:47:38] <michealpwalls> Still can't find anything rofl. Makes no sense to me at all :/
[15:48:08] <crutchy> i'm putting my problems down to me being a perl noob, and having very short patience with it
[15:48:08] <michealpwalls> Pretty desperate at this point haha. I really don't want to run another OS... Natively *or* in a VM just to dev slash. That's completely retarded :/
[15:48:13] <michealpwalls> Yes ^
[15:48:15] <michealpwalls> This too
[15:48:39] <michealpwalls> I admit, this is probably all due to my lack of knowledge/experience with Perl. But jesus.. Why the hell is it such a chore? No wonder we can't get other devs on board :)
[15:48:44] <MrBluze> u could just run the vm and manage it via ssh
[15:48:53] <MrBluze> but it was a pita for me
[15:48:56] <michealpwalls> When the barrier to entry is downloading/installing another OS... There's a problem, in my humble opinion :)
[15:48:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> i dunno man. using perl in windows hasn't been my thing for about a decade or better.
[15:49:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, just use the vm, yo. no setup required hardly.
[15:49:31] <crutchy> i was having same probs in debian
[15:49:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> and it keeps your actual system clean
[15:50:05] <michealpwalls> Suppose you're right
[15:50:06] <Blackmoore> ^ and it feels really good when you get fustrated enough to wipe the whole VM.
[15:50:12] <michealpwalls> LOL Blackmoore
[15:50:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> you'll probably want to install a gui though if you want to check it with anything but lynx from a terminal.
[15:51:05] <Blackmoore> what? my marathon sessions for coding (back when rocks were soft) involved a lot of swearing)
[15:51:14] <MrBluze> u can check it by 127.0.0.1 from outside the vm
[15:51:34] <MrBluze> port 1337
[15:53:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> with the adapter defaulting to nat? that shouldn't work.
[15:53:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> i mean that's a serious bug if it's true
[15:55:43] <michealpwalls> I show you.. God I'm so close it drives me crazy: http://oi59.tinypic.com
[15:55:45] <michealpwalls> Grrr!
[15:55:47] <michealpwalls> :(
[15:55:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> i gave it a bridged adapter and work over ssh -X
[15:56:47] <michealpwalls> All the use statements until line 32 work fine.. It's *only* Slash includes that fail
[15:57:04] <michealpwalls> Which makes no sense, LOL.. The current directory (.) is in my @INC :(
[15:57:28] <MrBluze> watching news 24
[15:57:52] <MrBluze> crutchy: they are struggling ot put a negative spin on stuff like... 90% of people choose to separate from ukraine
[15:58:00] <MrBluze> or.. putin wins 24 points to 4 in a hockey match
[15:58:02] <crutchy> hahaha
[15:58:03] <MrBluze> yeah.. what a loser
[15:58:13] <MrBluze> winning is for losers
[15:58:36] <crutchy> putin is awesome
[15:58:47] <crutchy> well, from a distance anyway
[15:58:51] <MrBluze> "just a bunch of macho-ism" they say .. the other guy says "no, it's just awesome"
[15:59:23] <MrBluze> and the first guy ducks and looks like "no no.. please dont sack me .."
[15:59:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> Putin is almost as awesome as Stalin
[15:59:38] <michealpwalls> I can manipulate the git repository from Eclipse, too. It's a really good setup... You know, except for the fact that Slash doesnt' work hahaha
[15:59:54] <MrBluze> well i dont trust them, but u cant deny it's a good look to be so popular with your neighbours
[15:59:56] <paulej72> michealpwalls: the slash includes are pm files that are loaded with the perl backend, not with the code you are currently running.
[16:00:10] <crutchy> eclipse looks fancy... i was debugging slashcode in modperl2 from apache error log
[16:00:16] <michealpwalls> Hrmm! So how do you do guys do unit testing? :/
[16:00:24] <Brylarke> Ewww, eclipse
[16:00:25] <michealpwalls> Oh jesus crutchy :O
[16:00:29] <crutchy> i roll my own
[16:00:30] <michealpwalls> That's just crazytalk haha
[16:01:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> don't look at me, i'm deving in vim and error logs too.
[16:01:15] <michealpwalls> Well, if I edit (hypothetically speaking) Slash.pm, how would I just that module without running the entire Slash (Running slash may never even touch the code flow I change in Slash.pm....)
[16:01:31] <paulej72> crutchy: slash is debugged the same way
[16:01:51] <michealpwalls> So all this time... I'm basicall yjus tbarking up the wrong tree?
[16:01:52] <michealpwalls> LMAO
[16:02:04] <MrBluze> im debugging filemaker pro .. click mouse.. drag.. drop.. right click.. fix.. ..click ok
[16:02:10] <crutchy> lol
[16:02:13] <MrBluze> whew.. tough stuff
[16:02:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh hey, paulej72. you or NCommander started in on the rss issues yet?
[16:02:28] <crutchy> "well... i've earned my pay"
[16:02:33] <michealpwalls> paulej72: So... Basically.... mod_perl is the entry point? Or more specifically, Apache itself is the entry point? Without them Slash cannot be tested?
[16:02:41] <paulej72> michealpwalls: if a running slash never toches to code you are testing then what is it there for :)
[16:02:48] <MrBluze> lol yep crutchy, thats why they pay the big bucks ".. whew.. this mouse work is making me sweat"
[16:02:54] <crutchy> lol
[16:02:59] <crutchy> better reformat it then
[16:03:04] <paulej72> TheMightyBuzzard: no not yet
[16:03:06] <crutchy> just to look busy
[16:03:13] <crutchy> in case the boss walks past
[16:03:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> aright, i'll have a look at them
[16:03:14] <ciri> Sure dude, there are indians like that, but every day i cower in fear and submission, just in case the boss walks past.
[16:03:22] <MrBluze> .. nah just pick a new layout .. hmm .. midnight enlightenment or .. crispy spring dawn
[16:03:38] <crutchy> or staple your hat to your shirt
[16:03:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> or rather already am having a look at them and getting butt hurt at the state of the code
[16:03:51] <MrBluze> "wow.. how did u do that... wow" says the pointy haired boss
[16:04:09] <crutchy> "i simply just reformatted the mouse... duh!"
[16:04:09] <michealpwalls> crutchy: I'd like to look into upgrading apache and mod_perl, yea!
[16:04:53] <MrBluze> lol
[16:05:03] <paulej72> michealpwalls: slash uses mod_perl to take over apache like some scifi brainsucker. the three will not work without the ohters once salsh is installed
[16:05:16] <michealpwalls> Hrmm!
[16:05:22] <MrBluze> it is rather brain numbing - but in a few hours i have achieved what used to take me days .. so hmm.. it's paying for itself
[16:05:33] <michealpwalls> So basically we *need* a test harness in order to do unit tests (automated regression testing)
[16:05:44] <crutchy> michealpwalls: dunno whether this would help much, but sorta what i tried... http://soylentnews.org
[16:06:03] <michealpwalls> Oh yea, that helps! Thx :)
[16:06:09] <paulej72> michealpwalls: great look into mod_perl and apache. NCommander has had that on his todo list for a long time, and I am not sure if I want to tackle it
[16:06:52] <michealpwalls> 'spose that answers my question (Why there is no test framework for Slash already LOL)
[16:06:58] <michealpwalls> Crazy complicated due to apache and mod_perl :(
[16:07:45] <crutchy> maybe we could unit test outside slash
[16:07:56] <michealpwalls> Yea, test harness ^
[16:08:06] <crutchy> lol oops sorry yeah
[16:08:12] <michealpwalls> But that's super complicated 'cause we have to stub test apache *and* mod_perl... No idea wtf that would entail :(
[16:08:25] <michealpwalls> LMAO maybe I'm over-thinking it
[16:08:38] <crutchy> could we just test individual functions first
[16:08:47] <crutchy> using a fake environment
[16:09:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> sure, write something that uses em.
[16:09:19] <michealpwalls> Yea, but basically here's the issue right... We make a test harness (A 3rd-paryty program for testing slash modules) but, since each slash module depends on a rigiddy network of other slash modules.. We have to provide "test stubs", basically fake output from modules...
[16:09:28] <michealpwalls> So that the module we test gets it's input and dependencies first, then we can run and test it
[16:09:36] <michealpwalls> But, you see... How crazy that would be ? :/
[16:09:45] <michealpwalls> Everything dpends on everything, basically. It's a big house of cards LMAO
[16:09:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, that's pretty much what the dev vm is.
[16:10:11] <crutchy> need to target lower level functions first
[16:10:19] <michealpwalls> I'm going to look at the vm more, 'spose my ideal platform-neutral environment is completely bust haha
[16:10:40] <crutchy> then use them to fake the environment for the higher level (more integrated) functions
[16:10:43] <michealpwalls> Yea
[16:10:56] <crutchy> so use slash to fake itself
[16:11:09] <paulej72> michealpwalls: if you have not seen it I recently updated the VM HowTo http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[16:11:20] <michealpwalls> Cool!
[16:11:33] <michealpwalls> Oh good it's virtualbox!
[16:12:11] <crutchy> not sure if this would help any either, but this is how i bumbled my way through it... http://soylentnews.org
[16:12:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm currently in love with expireRSS. it has a "return unless $day" but the thing that is supposed to pass $day to it is never defined anywhere in the code.
[16:13:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> used twice but both are reads from it rather than definitions of it
[16:13:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's awesome.
[16:16:29] <paulej72> what I “love” about slash, is there is usually three places that you need to look for your code, The backend perl module (Messages.pm). The front end perl file (messages.pl). and finally all of the templates. Any one of them could have the bit of code in it you need to fix. Slash never was good at saying what logic should be in each of the pieces so the code could be anywhere. For Messages I had to work on all three plus the
[16:16:30] <paulej72> Message Plugin’s own MySQL.pm file.
[16:17:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, grep's pretty much a lifesaver there.
[16:18:14] <crutchy> i "loved" (past tense) that there is seemingly duplicate templates
[16:18:47] * MrBluze tips his imaginary hat to you all
[16:18:51] <MrBluze> you must love cryptic crosswords
[16:19:14] <crutchy> grep crosswords
[16:19:37] <crutchy> ^ lol how fucked up would that be
[16:19:54] <MrBluze> lol
[16:20:04] <MrBluze> very
[16:20:17] <MrBluze> im gonna try to sleep .. on call hope it stays as calm as this
[16:20:19] <MrBluze> cheers
[16:20:32] <crutchy> night mrbluze
[16:20:36] <crutchy> i'm not far behind
[16:20:36] <MrBluze> nighty night
[16:20:37] <michealpwalls> paulej72: Yea it's an absolute mess the way Slash is mixed. No concept of MVC whatsoever :/
[16:20:40] <crutchy> err to the side
[16:20:41] <MrBluze> cheers mate
[16:20:44] <michealpwalls> There's even UI junk in the fucking DB... LOL
[16:20:48] <michealpwalls> What sense that makes, iunno.
[16:21:51] <michealpwalls> The more I poke and prod, the more I feel it's just absolutely awful. It's no wonder at all why it's so difficult to find volunteer devs. hell good luck *hiring* a dev :)
[16:22:17] <crutchy> makes perfect sense if you're a slash guru trying to keep your job maintaining it :-P
[16:22:24] <michealpwalls> ^ yea, really
[16:22:27] <michealpwalls> Or just showing off..
[16:22:33] <crutchy> no sense TQM'ing yourself out of work :-P
[16:22:55] <michealpwalls> Who in their right mind would attach a web app to a web server, though?
[16:22:59] <michealpwalls> I mean fucking really? slash.conf seriously?
[16:23:03] <michealpwalls> It's a fucking disaster.
[16:23:17] <crutchy> is that the vhost conf file?
[16:23:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> i like the crazy, it appeals to my schizo tendencies.
[16:23:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> plus victory is sweeter.
[16:24:04] <MrBluze> ... but does it run vista?
[16:24:20] <michealpwalls> The whole damned thing from the ground up is a disaster in softwar engineering. It is an example of so many things you should never, ever do... From the absolutely retarded "organization", to the downright autistic "architecture" of plugging directly into your web-server. Then you have th rigidy mess of dependencies making unit testing completely impractical..
[16:24:32] <michealpwalls> Nobody ever heard of "Highly Cohesive, Loosely Coupled" obviously...
[16:24:37] <crutchy> MrBluze: lemme check by flushing my pyewta down the toilet
[16:24:48] <paulej72> michealpwalls: I am tring to remove ui junk from the database. I know why it is there, but it is still bunk. (done so menus can be added to when new plugins are added to the system)
[16:25:12] <crutchy> lol a ui for the programmer
[16:25:18] <michealpwalls> What the fuck is with Slash::Utility and Slash::DB::Utility? Unebeleivably stupid. That' is how *not* to do object-oriented design. You have no idea *which* int() method is called
[16:25:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, welcome to the real world where code is pretty much always insane when you get called in to fix someone else's stuff.
[16:25:30] <michealpwalls> Is it Slash:Utility:init? Is it Slash::DB::Utility::init? WHO KNOWS!?
[16:25:42] <crutchy> just call them both... from orbit... it's the only way to be sure
[16:25:46] <michealpwalls> Sorry guys... </rant>
[16:25:48] <ciri> I'm going to lake of the sales guys insulted some lady by not shaking her hand, she had some fun stumpers recently heh.
[16:25:50] <paulej72> michealpwalls: I think the integration of the slash to apache was done at a time when it was hard to do things with apache without directly controlling it.
[16:25:53] <michealpwalls> I jus thad to get that outburst off my chest :(
[16:26:32] <crutchy> paulej72: do you know which bits are tied to apache1.3?
[16:26:37] <crutchy> i mean right up its clacker?
[16:27:03] <MrBluze> this resembles a project I left early on because I thought it would attract a royal commission .. and i dont want to ever front up to one of those
[16:27:13] <MrBluze> but nowhere near as serious :)
[16:27:31] <paulej72> crutchy: All I know is that slash takes over .htacess as these files are ignored. It does other things with session and cookies as well
[16:27:50] <crutchy> oh nasty
[16:27:56] <michealpwalls> You can see part of what it does in slash.conf
[16:28:11] <crutchy> that's why slash comes out smelling like apache shit
[16:28:23] <MrBluze> paulej72: if there a strategy to move away from this codebase at some point?
[16:28:30] <michealpwalls> Under slashcode/htdocs/slash.conf. It changes the way Apache handles requests for .pl and .pm scripts, If I remember? Iunno though, it all seems crazytalk to me hehe
[16:28:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> MrBluze, looks quite similar to a billing/admin/accounts system i got hired to port to another game. i rewrote it instead.
[16:28:44] <crutchy> we're making a new codebase... pipeslash
[16:28:56] <michealpwalls> LOL at this point, pipeslash would be more productive.
[16:29:12] <michealpwalls> It's at least legible. It's not a 10,000lbs gorilla (yet) LOL
[16:29:22] <MrBluze> TheMightyBuzzard: our project was renovating a huge building that was hopelessly underdesigned.. i argued it's cheaper to build a new building and demolish the old one
[16:29:25] <paulej72> MrBluze: to get away from this codebase would be difficult as you would have to say good bye to the data for the most part
[16:29:33] <michealpwalls> Although it's trying to mimick all the horribly design "principals" of slashcode, for some idiotic reason....
[16:29:45] <MrBluze> paulej72: not if you found a way to access the database with new code
[16:29:49] <michealpwalls> paulej72: We can ETL the data, though
[16:29:57] <crutchy> paulej72: alll the data is in a big fat arse mysql db, no?
[16:29:57] <michealpwalls> Extract, Transform, Load (into the new system)
[16:30:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> just for the record, rewriting it was not quicker and i had to end up using some of the insane code anyway because it wasn't something i could test.
[16:30:15] <MrBluze> describe database ... abstract/transform/reinterpret as required
[16:30:21] <crutchy> lol i think we all asked the same thing then lol
[16:30:27] <michealpwalls> haha
[16:30:29] <MrBluze> TheMightyBuzzard: but long term ..
[16:30:32] <paulej72> well if you want new code to use the current database, you would essentially rewrite slash
[16:30:33] <michealpwalls> That was good timing
[16:30:48] <crutchy> just want to extract the good bits from the db
[16:30:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> MrBluze, just document the fuck out of the insane bits. and call it good.
[16:31:02] <crutchy> the trolling... i mean comments
[16:31:06] <michealpwalls> It's not up to me haha. It's def. something the core devs need to totally agree on...
[16:31:11] <MrBluze> paulej72: gradually in a non-destructive way .. maybe yes
[16:31:16] <crutchy> and maybe TFAs, but i don't really care about those
[16:31:28] <MrBluze> and maybe not in perl *ducks*
[16:31:31] <paulej72> there is nothing gradual about slash
[16:31:32] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Rundown of European Pirate Party Candidates - http://sylnt.us - pirate-party-parties-are-the-best-parties || Mother's Day - http://sylnt.us
[16:31:35] <crutchy> yeah
[16:31:44] <crutchy> brainfuck language
[16:31:46] <paulej72> It is an all or nothing system for the most part
[16:31:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, perl is the shiz.
[16:31:48] <crutchy> or whatever its called
[16:31:59] <michealpwalls> Iunno, I think there is... Essentially we have a comment system. That's it.
[16:32:00] <michealpwalls> Think about it...
[16:32:03] <MrBluze> paulej72: the website only has a dozen or so actual pages it serves
[16:32:22] <michealpwalls> What is a post on the main page of slash? A comment... People comment to that comment. What is a "private message"? A comment only 1 person can see...
[16:32:25] <michealpwalls> Think simple guys.
[16:32:35] <michealpwalls> 1 object, a comment object. Polymorph it as you need to
[16:32:41] <MrBluze> michealpwalls++
[16:32:41] <deadpeas> karma - michealpwalls: 2
[16:32:43] <michealpwalls> Not 300 fucking functions taht do *exactly* the same thing, slightly different.
[16:32:44] <paulej72> If pipecode was written hwo I would do it, it would have used slashes db schema so people could replace slash with pipecode
[16:32:50] <MrBluze> think .. first ... then.. act
[16:32:56] <michealpwalls> LOL MrBluze. Thank you!
[16:33:18] <crutchy> <html><body><p>TFA: fuck that</p><p>comment 1: trollollollolloll</p></body></html>
[16:33:27] <michealpwalls> paulej72: Yea, or at least write a really solid ETL script so you can extract everything out of a running slash system and even temporarily dump it into .csv files
[16:33:49] <paulej72> MrBluze: the site most people interact with may be only a few pages, but there is a massive amount of back end funtions and process that make it all work
[16:33:54] <MrBluze> in my job, i dont have a database table for "cleaner" and "ceo" and "admin fuck" .. i have one for "person"
[16:34:17] <MrBluze> paulej72: i know .. it's got all kinds of scaling magic in it i know.. nc told me about it
[16:34:44] <crutchy> crapd
[16:34:47] <crutchy> i mean slashd
[16:34:57] <michealpwalls> It wouldn't be hard, it would be a lot of work though. I think if you approach it right, you can get the *core* of Slashcode up and running quicker than you'd think, if you plan it well.
[16:35:09] <michealpwalls> slashd is retarded... LOL it's like a cron-replacement or something
[16:35:13] <michealpwalls> What a fucking disaster, seriously ^
[16:35:20] <paulej72> MrBluze: it is not only that but the admin functions that are needed
[16:35:29] <MrBluze> .. what about leaving it alone since it works
[16:35:48] <michealpwalls> MrBluze: That's always an option. That's what I've been trying to facilitate, but I have made like zero progress...
[16:35:50] <michealpwalls> :/
[16:36:05] <michealpwalls> I was hoping to just.. leave it alone and focus on making it *easier* for newcommers to get down to working on slash.
[16:36:08] <michealpwalls> But, yea.. :/
[16:36:22] <michealpwalls> It's a fucking nightmare, seriously...
[16:36:28] <crutchy> maybe an exec type system that calls perl for some stuff, php for other stuff, asp for taking a dump,, etc
[16:36:32] <michealpwalls> Everywhere I look, I throw up in my mouth.
[16:36:34] <MrBluze> .. maybe not work on slash, but work on a new thing
[16:37:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, and once you squash a few bugs despite the craziness, you'll feel all godlike for it being harder.
[16:37:29] <MrBluze> one that works with the database as it is - imports it or whatever and so u can build it using the existing db and userbase and everything
[16:37:45] <michealpwalls> ... As an exercise in education, Slash is great. Whomever wrote it probably learned a fucking *tonne* about Apache, mod_perl and the Perl language itself. As a production system, I think it's an example of unmaintainable code.
[16:38:12] <crutchy> but what would soylent be without our monthly crisis?
[16:38:18] <michealpwalls> LOL
[16:38:20] <MrBluze> crutchy: fun?
[16:38:21] <michealpwalls> touche
[16:38:21] <MrBluze> lol
[16:38:22] <ciri> Lol yep crutchy, i'm going to put in some work on his solution tomorrow.
[16:38:35] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: hah, yea serious bragging rights!
[16:38:41] <michealpwalls> Clear your entire resume and put that on it.
[16:38:46] <michealpwalls> "Figured out Slashcode. Hire me."
[16:39:17] <crutchy> interviewer: "have you been eating soylent green?"
[16:39:41] <michealpwalls> lol
[16:39:45] <crutchy> "you have a dick hanging out of your mouth"
[16:39:50] <michealpwalls> hahaha
[16:39:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> scuse me while i hunt down the origin of rss generation. assume it's probably in slashd but... let the fun begin.
[16:40:03] <michealpwalls> Don't assume, TheMightyBuzzard.
[16:40:04] <MrBluze> lol
[16:40:21] <MrBluze> sometimes a problem looks different from the outside ..
[16:40:24] <michealpwalls> It's probably perl code stuffed in the fucking database and "extracted" and "compiled" by something burried 3 directories under /Slash/
[16:40:27] <crutchy> TheMightyBuzzard: it's probably on your hard disk, somewhere
[16:40:27] <michealpwalls> Good luck bro!
[16:40:27] <michealpwalls> :)
[16:40:31] <crutchy> or on the interblags
[16:40:46] <michealpwalls> 'cause you know.. Only 'l33t' devs stuff perl in DBs :)
[16:40:58] <michealpwalls> It's "cached", or something! (hifive)
[16:41:29] <crutchy> nah slash just crams some weirdo templating language that's like html had sex with a dead cow
[16:41:31] <MrBluze> paulej72 did right in the beginning - get the css fixed, separate it from the shit that was slash-layout, ... but the same principle should apply throughout .. extract the db and redesign it to make it usable
[16:41:55] <MrBluze> once u do that.. it's no biggie to write new code to manage the db
[16:42:07] <michealpwalls> You know... This Template system is a monster. It's like a jumbled mess of pseudo-language and perl.. Stuff in a database... Then pulled out and put in a fucking perl hashmap, sent to this retarded template->process function..
[16:42:18] <MrBluze> well biggie.. but not as impossible as repairing stuff that is done awkwardly
[16:42:23] <michealpwalls> Which.. get this.. Seperates that mess into pseudo-script and perl.. Pumps the perl onto the server and calls it "cached"
[16:42:24] <michealpwalls> LOL
[16:42:30] <michealpwalls> It's the most retarded system I have ever seen in my life.
[16:42:40] <michealpwalls> When a simple flat text file would do.. a .inc, if you will, with some fucking html in it.
[16:42:51] <michealpwalls> You know.. Like everyother sane template system? :P
[16:43:00] <MrBluze> michealpwalls: this code is OLD
[16:43:13] <crutchy> but its not l337
[16:43:15] <MrBluze> early inventions are all forgotten because 90% of them are bizarre and impractical
[16:43:34] <michealpwalls> Slash isn't *that* old, guys. You talk aso though it predates CGI or something...
[16:43:35] <michealpwalls> It doesn't.
[16:43:46] <MrBluze> the mindset that made it does
[16:43:50] <crutchy> i think they used slash in jurassic park
[16:43:52] <michealpwalls> These fruit-cakes chose to ignore CGI and blazed their own trail...
[16:43:58] <crutchy> that's why the fences faileed
[16:44:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, mod_perl is post cgi
[16:44:07] <MrBluze> well.. all the content is stored in the db
[16:44:13] <MrBluze> so ..
[16:44:21] <MrBluze> just fix the db
[16:44:27] <LaminatorX> CowboyNeal has actually apologized for it.
[16:44:34] <michealpwalls> Can't be done by modern man, MrBluze :/
[16:44:38] <michealpwalls> LMAO LaminatorX really?
[16:44:46] <MrBluze> michealpwalls: i bet it can be done
[16:44:50] <crutchy> there's something like 180-odd tables?
[16:44:52] <MrBluze> more easily than all this hacking perl
[16:45:12] <LaminatorX> Sure. Remember, they were young and talented but inexperienced and making it all up as they went along.
[16:45:17] <MrBluze> crutchy: the code ppl should be writing is a script that takes the db and turns it into sense
[16:45:30] <crutchy> we need bobbby tables
[16:45:43] <michealpwalls> LaminatorX: True. All joking aside, they were incredibly intelligent... Absolutely oosing with intelligence but completely void of experience :(
[16:45:47] <MrBluze> !seen xlefay
[16:45:49] <ciri> MrBluze, xlefay is right here!
[16:45:58] * MrBluze thwaps ciri
[16:45:58] <michealpwalls> Or... They were trolling everyone.
[16:46:19] <LaminatorX> I have a signed print of the Bobbe tables strip. I used to do a lot of suport work for school districts databases.
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[16:46:34] <MrBluze> 180 tables is a finite number
[16:47:26] <MrBluze> with some SQL-fu, turn it into a usable database in postgresql or something people like and want to use.. and then writing a new slash will be enjoyable
[16:48:16] <MrBluze> just my 16 bits worth
[16:48:16] <crutchy> "the new slash... nothing like the old slash"
[16:48:18] <michealpwalls> You guys might hate me to say it.. But I dont' think anything should be preserved. Extract the *raw* data that's useful, dump it into a csv...
[16:48:22] <MrBluze> call it beta
[16:48:26] <michealpwalls> Leave *everything*, especially the horrible database design behind.
[16:48:29] <michealpwalls> It's *all* garbage...
[16:48:37] <crutchy> MrBluze: lol
[16:48:58] <MrBluze> michealpwalls: no, write a script that takes the DB and turns it into something usable .. the reason is you can test a live database at any time
[16:49:15] <michealpwalls> Then, from a blank canvas, design a database around a comment-based system. Once the database is designed, forge a specification document with *required* features to start...
[16:49:19] <MrBluze> and then migrating it will be a flick of a switch, and not a huge hiatus of managing csv and pulling the site offline
[16:49:26] <crutchy> we should just take the csv, put it on a ftp or telnet thingy and everyone can add their comments manually
[16:49:26] <michealpwalls> hehe
[16:49:34] <michealpwalls> ^ haha
[16:49:36] <michealpwalls> Agreed
[16:49:41] <MrBluze> lol crutchy.. just put it on usenet
[16:49:52] <MrBluze> in base64
[16:49:56] <MrBluze> or uuencode
[16:50:11] <crutchy> rawurlencoded
[16:50:23] <michealpwalls> Why don't we just use WordPress?
[16:50:24] <michealpwalls> :)
[16:50:34] <michealpwalls> What is the difference between WordPress and Slash? Honestly?
[16:50:34] <MrBluze> %s%l$a@s*h
[16:50:39] <crutchy> cos i don't like having sex with other species
[16:50:47] <michealpwalls> besides comment voting, WordPress *is* Slash.
[16:50:52] <michealpwalls> Only without the fucking garbage design LMAO
[16:51:05] <MrBluze> i dunno, michealpwalls
[16:51:06] <ciri> Michealpwalls: if you can play on?
[16:51:18] <MrBluze> the thing is kind of unique
[16:51:25] <MrBluze> and the community ... if it survives, is unique
[16:51:28] <michealpwalls> But honestly.. In what way?
[16:51:34] <michealpwalls> What way is slashcode different from WordPress?
[16:51:42] <MrBluze> wordpress is for blogs
[16:51:43] <crutchy> no monthly crisis in wordpress
[16:51:53] <michealpwalls> MrBluze: What is a slash story if not a blog?
[16:51:56] <MrBluze> slashcode is a sort of community site thing
[16:52:02] <MrBluze> yeah it's a blog
[16:52:09] <michealpwalls> Seriously, though. Think outside the box for 5 minutes. Everything a blog is, is a comment and vice versa.. Same with "stories"
[16:52:11] <MrBluze> a clunky old one too
[16:52:14] <michealpwalls> It's all just you posting text with markup, right?
[16:52:19] <LaminatorX> Slash's killer app is the comment moderation system.
[16:52:23] <MrBluze> lol michealpwalls i know
[16:52:32] <MrBluze> LaminatorX: but NC REWROTE it
[16:52:38] <michealpwalls> LaminatorX: Precisely! And so, *that* is all we have to do..
[16:52:45] <MrBluze> he could have rewritten it on another platform entirely
[16:52:45] <michealpwalls> Write a comment moderation plug-in for WordPress.
[16:52:48] <crutchy> LaminatorX: and the troll magnet factor
[16:52:53] <michealpwalls> We have slaschode... Multi-platform.. Multi-Database...
[16:53:00] <michealpwalls> Well supported... It's called Economies of Scale boys :D
[16:53:00] * crutchy misses apk
[16:53:35] <MrBluze> and i might say NC did a damn good job of rewriting the mod system
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[16:53:52] <MrBluze> but oh if only it wasnt all perl and ... i cant bare to look at it lol
[16:54:07] <michealpwalls> heh
[16:54:16] <michealpwalls> WordPress devs are a fucking dime a dozen (giggle)
[16:54:22] <michealpwalls> You can pick one up at th supermarket for like $5 :)
[16:54:33] <MrBluze> i dont like wordpress personally
[16:54:42] <michealpwalls> You like slashcode more?
[16:54:43] <michealpwalls> :O
[16:54:46] <MrBluze> no
[16:54:49] <opie> so true
[16:54:49] <michealpwalls> LOL
[16:55:13] <MrBluze> i cant prove this, but i know i could write something that was better than slashcode in a month, if i was on holidays
[16:55:20] <crutchy> ror devs are in demand... cos only chicks do it... hot nerd chicks
[16:55:26] <MrBluze> ive written cms before
[16:55:28] <michealpwalls> Hey dont' get me wrong.. I'm not sitting here saying we need to switch to WordPress. I'm just throwing out a perspective for you guys to chew on... This is 2014 guys. Community-site frameworks are a dime a dozen..
[16:55:35] <michealpwalls> Blogger, WordPress, vBulletin Board...
[16:55:41] <MrBluze> yeah i agree
[16:55:42] <michealpwalls> There's *so many* off the shelf, professional-grade systems
[16:55:44] <crutchy> csv/ftp
[16:55:50] <michealpwalls> LMAO crutchy
[16:55:52] <MrBluze> but its still better to write your own
[16:56:11] <MrBluze> pipecode is good because its simple.. but they are taking a freakin long time to get it to where it is
[16:56:21] <michealpwalls> Iunno... I took a glance at pipecode
[16:56:25] <michealpwalls> And I think their future is rocky...
[16:56:29] <michealpwalls> That's me being diplomatic ^
[16:56:51] <MrBluze> imho the key is database design
[16:56:57] <michealpwalls> Yes ^
[16:57:10] <michealpwalls> A database design can make *any* web app child's play... Or a royal nightmare (Slashcode)
[16:57:11] <MrBluze> then u can fix the code later
[16:57:18] <MrBluze> yup
[16:57:23] <michealpwalls> No matter what kind of script-fu you bust you, your poorly designed database will make your life a fucking nightmare
[16:57:23] <crutchy> store the whole app in a db
[16:57:32] <MrBluze> lmao crutchy
[16:57:38] <crutchy> have it pull itself out of its own ass
[16:57:46] <michealpwalls> LMAO crutchy. Yea but I thought we were getting *rid* of Slashcode? :)
[16:57:53] <crutchy> oh yeah
[16:57:55] <MrBluze> scentient db
[16:58:39] <MrBluze> tis why i argue, take the stories and comments that are there.. write a script that dumps the DB into a sensible table structure
[16:58:45] <MrBluze> and THEN write something for that new db
[16:59:05] <crutchy> maybe we should start a slash beta on port119
[16:59:13] <MrBluze> write a migration script :)
[16:59:17] <michealpwalls> LMAO soylentBeta!
[16:59:17] <crutchy> just a muck around thing
[16:59:37] <crutchy> i'd actually like to try getting exec to drive a website
[16:59:40] <michealpwalls> If we cause a fuck-soylent-beta revolt, will they all go back to Slashdot? :)
[17:00:11] <MrBluze> i would say the efforts so far have been mostly worth while
[17:00:16] <crutchy> nah we'll just scrape soylent
[17:00:25] <MrBluze> because getting this site working enough so ppl can use it and it stands up without falling down is good
[17:00:45] <michealpwalls> crutchy: Honestly... Writing a screen-scraper to get this data might be easier than navigating fucking slash's database :O
[17:00:48] <MrBluze> but long term plan needs to be made
[17:01:05] <MrBluze> michealpwalls: it might be ... very interesting idea
[17:01:07] <michealpwalls> I've already wrote a java-based screen-scraper that spins off threads to do parallel scraping. Dumps into a csv
[17:01:10] <michealpwalls> (flex)
[17:01:30] <michealpwalls> Supports HTTP 1.1 and secure cookies if you run it on the same domain as the target server (Not easy haha)
[17:01:40] <michealpwalls> otherwise it supports regular cookies just fine outside the domain
[17:01:56] <MrBluze> well i gotta get some sleep
[17:02:02] <crutchy> would only need to really scrape journals
[17:02:09] <michealpwalls> Take care, MrBluze
[17:02:10] <MrBluze> :) see u
[17:02:13] <MrBluze> u2 mate
[17:02:15] <ciri> It'll be uploaded in about 22 hours.
[17:02:16] <MrBluze> ciao
[17:02:19] <paulej72> the nice thing slash does do is insulates the frontend dev from the db. even though all of the users data is in different tables, it is all pulled into one object by a single subroutien, Also I can sort of see the reasoning behind some of the db choices. It was to make table load times better and searching possible on tables that need it
[17:02:20] <crutchy> nobody's going to miss TFAs from more than a month ago
[17:02:23] <Blackmoore> look, we know that NC qwants to move from mySQL to something else
[17:02:27] <crutchy> cya mrbluze
[17:02:58] <MrBluze> Blackmoore: that's the opportunity to make a new start
[17:03:01] <MrBluze> :) gnite
[17:03:06] <Blackmoore> *nods*
[17:03:29] <crutchy> we should go to ms sql and iss
[17:03:37] <crutchy> s/iss/iis/
[17:03:37] <SedBot> <crutchy> we should go to ms sql and iis
[17:03:50] <Blackmoore> *shoots sedbot*
[17:04:12] <MrBluze> filemaker uses iis but serves php through it
[17:04:24] <MrBluze> so im only half grumbling
[17:04:34] <MrBluze> argh off i go to sleep .. see ya
[17:04:37] MrBluze is now known as MrBluze|zzz
[17:04:39] <Blackmoore> gnight
[17:04:41] <crutchy> fuck 1am
[17:04:45] <crutchy> yeah mee too
[17:04:49] <Blackmoore> gnight
[17:04:56] <crutchy> nighty noght
[17:05:01] -!- crutchy has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[17:05:10] <michealpwalls> paulej72: Well, idealy relational database spread the data into organized, single-subject tables so that the data is normalized (atomic)... However this is step 1.
[17:05:31] <michealpwalls> paulej72: Step 2 is to write a set of VIEWS that are stored in the DB that bind these tables together using foreign-keys and primary key relationships...
[17:05:42] <michealpwalls> Slash has no relationships... It's a relational database with no damned relation!
[17:05:54] <Blackmoore> michealpwalls: NC was talking about a move from mySQL to PostgreSQL. I dont have enough background to explain why.
[17:06:31] <Blackmoore> but yeah, i get BOTH arguments. Slash is proven to cary haevy load.
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[17:06:34] <michealpwalls> Blackmoore: It will make a complicated thing (parameterized prepared statements..) but it's a *monumental* task, because of exactly what Paule just said...
[17:06:51] <michealpwalls> slash did *not* setup the MySQL properly.. Instead it used perl methods to make up for the lack of DB relationships/structure..
[17:06:58] <michealpwalls> Which means now th perl code is directly tied to the DB :(
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[17:07:20] <Blackmoore> yeah - the only "clean" way to do it is to start over.
[17:07:20] -!- SoyCow6198 has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[17:07:43] <Blackmoore> but - you still end up using the crap you have right now
[17:07:45] <michealpwalls> Iunno. Maybe I'm being to negative/inpatient..
[17:07:54] <SoyCow1071> wasn't there an article on a prominent security website closing because the author couldn't take the pressure and he was saying that someone on the inside was a problem
[17:07:56] <Blackmoore> it's impatients
[17:07:56] <michealpwalls> But it's really frustrating. Everything is made out to be such a monumental task :(
[17:08:00] <SoyCow1071> What website was that?
[17:08:37] <SoyCow1071> I'm sure I remember reading about it on soylent news, and all the comments were asking who on the inside was responsible for causing the website owner to close
[17:08:45] <Blackmoore> yes. at this point you have a monumental re-build - and a royal PIA
[17:09:58] <SoyCow1071> does anyone here remember what website is being referred to?
[17:10:36] <michealpwalls> If I give up on my dream of a slash dev on Windows, I would be a whole lot more productive.
[17:10:41] <SoyCow1071> I guess it was about security vulnerabilities but it was very hated among the companies it was exposing the vulnerabilities of
[17:10:47] <paulej72> lunch time for me bbl
[17:10:53] <michealpwalls> Take care
[17:11:12] <Blackmoore> I wish i had a good recommendation. pipedot's PHP is an interesting idea. if you atempted to use wordpress you'll have people bolting.
[17:11:27] <Bytram|away> say what you will, but slash HAS held up under the onslaught of over a decade's worth of attack by some highly intelligent and motivated nerds. cast that asside at your peril.
[17:11:40] <Blackmoore> SoyCow1071: sorry; i kinda remeber the article. but I'm missing the details.
[17:11:41] <michealpwalls> Well, mostly it's a stigma. You can template WordPress to look *identicle* to SoylentNews right now...
[17:11:49] mrcool|zzz is now known as mrcoolbp
[17:11:56] <michealpwalls> Although like I said, haha, I was just playing the Devil's Advocate to make a point :P
[17:12:02] <Blackmoore> yeah.
[17:12:04] <SoyCow1071> thanks
[17:12:26] <michealpwalls> That there *are* off-the-shelf products that totaly fit the bill in this day and age, if you abstract away the specialized role that people see slash filling.
[17:12:37] <michealpwalls> From an abstract view, slash is really nothing more than a blogging platform....
[17:12:44] <SoyCow1071> I tried Googling 'security site closes' One specific comment said that it's not like this guy is the type of guy who quits at the drop of a hat
[17:12:49] <michealpwalls> With comment moderation, which is unique however that is *all* that is unique about it...
[17:13:06] <Blackmoore> SoyCow1071: it was a "security" company.. the found vunreablities and made a lot of site owners upset
[17:13:22] <mrcoolbp> michealpwalls: I'm not sure it's fair to say it's just a blogging platform...
[17:13:52] <michealpwalls> I didn't mean offense by that hehe. In all fairness, what seperates slashcode from blogging platforms besides the comment moderation? :/
[17:14:07] Bytram|away is now known as Bytram
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[17:14:31] <mrcoolbp> michaelpwalls: that's a difficult question to specify an answer to without more coffeee
[17:14:41] <michealpwalls> haha understandable!
[17:14:42] <michealpwalls> :)
[17:14:52] <michealpwalls> I'm still in the the coffee-phase myself :)
[17:14:53] <mrcoolbp> and no offense taken
[17:14:58] <mrcoolbp> but I think there
[17:15:12] <mrcoolbp> there's a lot more in there that we haven't even implemented yet
[17:15:59] <mrcoolbp> the whole submission queue, story queue, editing panel are unique and propriatary (and rather powerful for this format)
[17:16:04] <michealpwalls> Years ago, when I made a forum from scratch (Using ASP v3 and the JScript "language") that's when it occurred to me. If you abstract away the "role", you can simplify things like forums, blogs and comments down to a basic "message" system..
[17:16:11] <SoyCow1071> Doesn't soylent news have a way I can list a long list of all topics?
[17:16:17] <mrcoolbp> have you played with the editor privledges yet michaelpwalls?
[17:16:25] <michealpwalls> A "forum post" that starts a thread is a message... Replies to that are messages... Private messages are Messages... In fact, even the main-page can be driven by Messages.
[17:16:37] <mrcoolbp> SoyCow1071: have you messed with the search function yet?
[17:16:55] <SoyCow1071> yeah
[17:17:23] <mrcoolbp> SoyCow1071: hmm not sure I understand your question
[17:17:36] <michealpwalls> So essentially I simplified an entire forum system down to a simple Message system.. Where messages can be transformed into different roles. Everything essentially starts with a simple Message object, though.
[17:17:40] <mrcoolbp> you want to know all the available topics?
[17:17:54] <michealpwalls> mrcoolbp: No, not really
[17:18:03] <michealpwalls> mrcoolbp: What do you mean specifically?
[17:18:06] <mrcoolbp> ah, it's a really interesting system
[17:18:17] <mrcoolbp> still no luck with getting it up and running?
[17:18:36] <mrcoolbp> (I glanced over your journal earlier)
[17:18:43] <michealpwalls> No luck here :(
[17:19:09] <michealpwalls> Although I found out (well Paule explained it basically hehe) why it's doing that..
[17:19:19] <mrcoolbp> cool
[17:19:20] <mrcoolbp> well it allows for a queue of submissions that editors can merge and comment on
[17:19:22] <ciri> Also, another cool tree http://img.fark.net
[17:19:22] <michealpwalls> I was barking up the wrong tree.. No Slash modules can be individually tested :(
[17:19:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> gah, okay i noobed up the comment in that template
[17:19:30] <SoyCow1071> http://soylentnews.org
[17:19:34] <SoyCow1071> I wonder if that's it
[17:19:34] <michealpwalls> So I have to go back to the drawing board and come up with a different approach entirely
[17:20:23] <mrcoolbp> michaelpwalls: the editing panel has some useful features like setting a story in the queue, but not displaying it on the main page until it's been checked by multiple editors, also seeing who has edited a story and when
[17:20:39] <mrcoolbp> fast forwarding a story to the top of the queue
[17:20:43] <michealpwalls> mrcoolbp: WordPress (Blogger as well) has a notion of "draft" messages. So, for those situations a submission can be sent in as a Draft. Editors as well as the Submitter can work on it or merge it with other drafs before Publishing.
[17:20:50] <mrcoolbp> seeing possible related stories...
[17:20:53] <michealpwalls> Although the queue is interesting...
[17:21:04] <SoyCow1071> Like If I hit ctrl+H on my web browswer and I type in soylentnews I would get a list of all soylentnews sites I visited and it would only show the topic
[17:21:04] <michealpwalls> drafts aren't really queued, they just sit there until manually published
[17:21:13] <n1> the queue is the best thing ever.
[17:21:15] <SoyCow1071> is there a way I can list all topics without the bodies, like a really long list of topics
[17:21:20] <n1> except when it's empty...
[17:21:22] <SoyCow1071> and also don't you have the articles categorized?
[17:21:24] <michealpwalls> LMAO n1
[17:22:09] <michealpwalls> A lot of the core functionality you describe exists in many existing systems, albeit not as stream-lined as you describe. Work would have to be don :/
[17:22:21] <mrcoolbp> SoyCow1071: there's no interface for that, the search function would be the closest thing, and I realize that wouldn't satisfy as an answer, sorry
[17:22:27] <mrcoolbp> as far as I know
[17:22:58] <mrcoolbp> michaelpwalls: I'm sure there's more, but one of the devs would need to help with the specifics
[17:23:19] <mrcoolbp> journals, friends/foes
[17:23:23] <mrcoolbp> it goes one
[17:23:29] <michealpwalls> You make a good point, though. More research would have to be done about the backend of slash, like the "admin"/"editor" side of things.
[17:23:33] <michealpwalls> I'm not very familiar with that
[17:23:34] <mrcoolbp> s/one/on/
[17:23:34] <SedBot> <mrcoolbp> it goes on
[17:24:07] <michealpwalls> Although, I suspect it's not as bad as you might think... The blogging platforms, that is their core... Publishing.
[17:24:20] <michealpwalls> Editors, non-dev submitters and etc. That's their bread 'n butter, so to speak..
[17:24:21] <michealpwalls> hehe
[17:24:52] <SoyCow1071> Your site has been great, btw, thanks
[17:24:58] <michealpwalls> They have immaculate visual editors, for example and a robust Draft system for works-in-progress.. Collaboration tools such as annotations and such.
[17:25:12] <mrcoolbp> SoyCow1071: your welcome, there's still much work to be done of course
[17:25:13] <SoyCow1071> Well, maybe something that can list, say, 500 subjects (only) at a time and allow me to choose a range of dates to list from as well
[17:25:26] <mrcoolbp> michealpwalls: hopefully you can get the code up and running and play around with it soon to see what I mean
[17:25:36] <michealpwalls> SoyCow1071: Thos eare really good ideas! I would like that, too now that you mention it..
[17:25:43] <michealpwalls> Like a customizable Archive page, of sorts..
[17:25:44] <SoyCow1071> and to choose a category, one of them could be like security.
[17:25:48] <mrcoolbp> SoyCow1071: do you mean "Titles" ?
[17:25:49] <michealpwalls> That you can control what it's showing you. Neat!
[17:25:58] <SoyCow1071> Yeah, subjects/titles
[17:26:02] <mrcoolbp> ah okay
[17:26:03] <SoyCow1071> just like how I use my history bar on firefox
[17:26:06] <michealpwalls> SoyCow1071: There certainly is catagories, though.. You can sort by catagories.
[17:26:11] <mrcoolbp> with the editor privs you can acutally see that
[17:26:16] <mrcoolbp> so the code is there
[17:26:29] <mrcoolbp> it lists like 25-30 or something
[17:26:29] <SoyCow1071> i type in Soylentnews and it lists only the subjects/titles of everything I visited and I can scroll through it and find the relevant one.
[17:26:31] <michealpwalls> Just click on one of the icons at the top, like the "Slash" icon. Will show you only subjects in that category. Then I think you can do searches and stuff from the view you end up on.
[17:26:39] <SoyCow1071> wait, how would I do that?
[17:27:01] <michealpwalls> SoyCow1071: https://soylentnews.org
[17:27:09] <mrcoolbp> by clicking on one of the icons at the top middle/right
[17:27:22] <michealpwalls> To get there, I clicked on the icon of the newspaper on soylentnews.org. That's now showing all "news" stories. You can then customize *that* list further with the inputs on that page
[17:27:23] <SoyCow1071> ahh, I see that
[17:27:28] <SoyCow1071> what about one about 'security'
[17:27:40] <michealpwalls> Hrmm, there's def. a security catagory, not sure what the icon would be?
[17:27:42] <michealpwalls> Lemme look
[17:27:50] <michealpwalls> Oh silly me, it's the lock!
[17:27:54] <michealpwalls> Click the Lock icon :P
[17:28:07] <SoyCow1071> OK I found it
[17:28:08] <SoyCow1071> http://soylentnews.org
[17:28:15] <SoyCow1071> Thanks
[17:28:19] <SoyCow1071> So you already have it setup ;)
[17:28:23] <michealpwalls> Nice! Good work :)
[17:28:30] <michealpwalls> Shit Soy there's more here than I even know about :O
[17:28:45] <michealpwalls> I discover new features all the time :)
[17:28:56] <mrcoolbp> see what I mean?
[17:28:58] <mrcoolbp> = )
[17:29:02] <SoyCow1071> In fact it made my search so much easier. I clicked on the security option and typed in closes and it was the only article to show up ;)
[17:29:12] <SoyCow1071> See, that's what I'm talking about
[17:29:14] <mrcoolbp> it's a really cool system, just the code is....ackward
[17:29:33] <michealpwalls> It's robust
[17:29:51] <mrcoolbp> we actually contacted CowBoyNeal early on, he responded with a "best of luck, and sorry about the code!" kind of response, I fucking ROFLed
[17:30:07] <michealpwalls> I dont' wanna be a broken record, though, but the state of frameworks like Blogger is pretty incredible :/
[17:30:21] <michealpwalls> Did you know ArsTechnica is a WordPress site?
[17:30:33] <michealpwalls> *thinks*
[17:30:40] <SoyCow1071> thanks
[17:30:43] <michealpwalls> There's a lot of high-profile WordPress' out there, many people aren't even aware hehe
[17:30:57] <mrcoolbp> michaelpwalls: no doubt, and no I didn't, but we'd rather have an open-sourced home-grown thing I'm guessing
[17:31:13] <mrcoolbp> er home-forked ?
[17:31:14] <ciri> But the gestures are just like a banana.
[17:31:27] -!- SoyCow1071 has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[17:31:29] * mrcoolbp debates kicking the damn ciri bot
[17:31:36] <michealpwalls> http://arstechnica.com
[17:31:47] <michealpwalls> That's a wordpress comment list for an article.
[17:32:00] <michealpwalls> Comment moderation in affect (Not as robust as Slash's, of course)
[17:32:09] <Blackmoore> Onion runs on Drupal
[17:32:12] <mrcoolbp> michaelpwalls: also the karma system
[17:33:45] <mrcoolbp> there are many layers
[17:35:20] <michealpwalls> Indeed
[17:35:54] <michealpwalls> I think, though, that's why Slashcode got so horrible. Too much reproduced code because ideas weren't simplified. Karma is just a vote on a user... Think about it.
[17:36:04] <michealpwalls> You up/down vote comments and can up/down vote users (karma)
[17:36:06] <michealpwalls> :P
[17:36:21] <mrcoolbp> yeah but it ties into the moderation system
[17:36:35] <michealpwalls> Yea, that's the fundamental difference that's for sure.
[17:36:40] <mrcoolbp> again I'm not a dev so some of the specifics are lost on me
[17:36:41] <michealpwalls> In traditional systems, anybody can vote..
[17:36:47] <michealpwalls> In slash only certain "mods" can vote.
[17:37:04] <mrcoolbp> to prevent abuse
[17:37:15] <michealpwalls> This is good, though. You clearly know (slash) from a user point of view much better than me!
[17:37:24] <michealpwalls> So that's very helpful to me navigating this messy code trying to make sense of things :(
[17:37:42] <mrcoolbp> well I'm an admin too so I've gotte to peak 'neath her dress as well
[17:37:53] <michealpwalls> LOL
[17:37:54] <mrcoolbp> s/gotte/gotten
[17:37:54] <SedBot> mrcolbp, did you know there's THREE slashes in a proper s/// command?
[17:38:02] <mrcoolbp> sigh
[17:38:09] <michealpwalls> Ther'es also a colon, SedBot..
[17:38:14] <mrcoolbp> hah
[17:38:15] <michealpwalls> But I'm not a pedantic dick like you :P
[17:38:18] <mrcoolbp> lol
[17:38:43] <michealpwalls> s:/THREE slashes/THREE slashes and a colon /
[17:38:54] <michealpwalls> (giggles)
[17:39:36] * mrcoolbp didn't know that
[17:39:41] <mrcoolbp> I did say I'm not a dev though
[17:39:52] <mrcoolbp> s/dev/developer/
[17:39:52] <SedBot> <mrculbp> I did say I'm not a developer though
[17:40:04] <michealpwalls> In sedbot's defense, sed may not need a colon LMAO. vi sure does, though! :)
[17:40:05] <mrcoolbp> but I know how to make the damn but fix my typing = )
[17:40:23] <michealpwalls> I don't use sed or awk much
[17:40:43] <mrcoolbp> he's a vindictive little bastard though, when you make a mistake, he starts mispelling your name
[17:40:49] <michealpwalls> LOL!
[17:40:55] <michealpwalls> I love the way it does that
[17:40:58] <michealpwalls> Adds so much character! :D
[17:41:12] <mrcoolbp> mmm
[17:41:22] * mrcoolbp wishes he got into coding years ago
[17:41:30] * mrcoolbp would be more useful around here
[17:41:48] <mrcoolbp> but I'd probably be much less talented at the electric guitar = )
[17:42:16] <michealpwalls> hah I'm a 2nd year college student studying programming and systems analysis... I'm still not very useful (rofl)
[17:42:31] <michealpwalls> So don't feel bad
[17:42:32] <michealpwalls> :)
[17:43:31] <mrcoolbp> if I didn't work 60hrs a week, have a wife, and a rock band, I'd be interested in learning some perl
[17:43:47] <mrcoolbp> oh and do whatever the heck I do here = )
[17:43:47] <michealpwalls> learning perl is the easy part :(
[17:43:53] <mrcoolbp> yeah
[17:45:24] <mrcoolbp> exactly my point
[17:45:37] <michealpwalls> From this Firefox 29 story: "OS X has hidden scroll bars by default" LMAO oh man.. Funny story.
[17:45:51] <michealpwalls> So about a year ago I got a brand new, $2,100 macbook pro with a retina display..
[17:45:55] <mrcoolbp> yeah that's F-ing rediculous
[17:46:02] <mrcoolbp> yes, and?
[17:46:09] * mrcoolbp wanted one of those
[17:46:10] <michealpwalls> As I said, I'm a programmer... Couldnt' figure out how to fucking scroll anything.
[17:46:22] <mrcoolbp> 2 fingers sir
[17:46:22] <michealpwalls> I was flipping around and messing with the touchpad and there was no fucking scroll-bars anywhere..
[17:46:58] <michealpwalls> So I was like "wait, wtf? Where's the scroll bar!?" haha and noticed breifly when I accidently scrolled with 2 fingers the scroll-bar temporarily appears but then promptly hides again once scrolling stops
[17:47:17] <michealpwalls> Boy was my face red when I figured out how to scroll with 2 fingers :P
[17:47:35] <mrcoolbp> I love 2-finger scroll when I got a chance to use it, but intuitive to figure out, it is not.
[17:48:04] <michealpwalls> Yea once I got the hang of it.. I was cursed. Seriously. Now I cannot use PC touchpads. They're fucking retarded. I am *so* spoiled by that Mac touchpad :/
[17:48:04] <mrcoolbp> hmpf, I should get ready for work
[17:48:09] <michealpwalls> It is absolutely perfect..
[17:48:17] <mrcoolbp> yeah I know what ya mean
[17:48:48] <michealpwalls> "multitouch pad" or whatever they called it.
[17:50:31] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - U.S. Forbids Govt Workers From Discussing Snowden - http://sylnt.us - each-abuse-of-power-is-unique
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[17:54:01] <mrcoolbp> michealpwalls: I gotta get ready for work, I'll be in and out for the next hour or so
[17:54:18] <michealpwalls> Alright, take care mrcoolbp!
[17:54:23] <michealpwalls> Don't work too hard ;)
[17:54:37] <michealpwalls> haha well unless you're paid-for-performance! :D
[17:54:43] <mrcoolbp> = )
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[18:31:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> ahhh, there's the problem. slashd wasn't running. *headdesk*
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[18:38:58] <michealpwalls> LOL
[18:39:00] <michealpwalls> nice
[18:39:16] <michealpwalls> is it accurate to describe slashd as a cron-like task scheduler?
[18:39:33] <michealpwalls> Reading through it's code that's the best sense I could make of it haha
[18:43:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> eh, sorta more or less
[18:45:25] * TheMightyBuzzard chin scratches
[18:49:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> okay so it's dirt simple to increase the number of stories in rss feeds but being able to select your own number like via http://address is not possible with the current system
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[18:51:47] <michealpwalls> Hrmm
[18:52:08] <michealpwalls> Where is the rss generated, did you find?
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[18:54:39] <mrcool|afk> TheMightyBuzzard and what about adding the summaries?
[18:54:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> looking at that next
[18:54:51] <ciri> And now it's pouring freezing rain and creating a ram disk.
[18:55:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's generated by slashd every so often
[18:55:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> in...
[18:56:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> open_backend.pl by newrss which calls _do_rss
[19:02:56] <michealpwalls> Hrmm
[19:03:19] <mrcool|afk> TheMightyBuzzard, maybe comment on the issue on github and/or let paulej72 know what you find? I gotta run off to work
[19:03:28] <mrcool|afk> appreciate you looking into it
[19:03:42] <mrcool|afk> later guys
[19:03:57] <michealpwalls> Take it easy mrcool|afk !
[19:04:07] <mrcool|afk> u2
[19:04:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> did already on #38, will likely have a pull request in for #101 this week.
[19:04:41] <mrcool|afk> awesome
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[19:21:39] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Immersat Offers Free Airline Tracking - http://sylnt.us - turning-tragedy-into-opportunity
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[19:30:31] <mattie_p> spelling of title corrected
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[19:40:52] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Inmarsat Offers Free Airline Tracking - http://sylnt.us - turning-tragedy-into-opportunity
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[20:03:47] <michealpwalls> Meh, downloading the VM now... Fuck it!
[20:04:36] <michealpwalls> Figured I'll leave what I put on the wiki. If someone wants to carry on it might be a good start for them. I think it's a dead end, though :/
[20:04:52] <n1> VM ftw
[20:05:03] <michealpwalls> hehe I had a dream, n1!
[20:05:06] <michealpwalls> :D
[20:05:25] <n1> that dream involved windows, seems more like a nightmare.
[20:05:37] <michealpwalls> LOL
[20:05:40] <michealpwalls> It really was :(
[20:06:26] <michealpwalls> This is downloading at the speed of smell.
[20:07:32] <paulej72> michealpwalls: no one is seeding it probably
[20:07:47] <michealpwalls> :(
[20:07:50] <michealpwalls> I blame society
[20:08:00] <paulej72> should set just a direct download at this point, but I am not sure what the url is anymore
[20:09:22] <chromas> My seed douesn't count?
[20:09:25] <michealpwalls> Could we make a SoylentNews account on DropBox or something?
[20:09:32] <michealpwalls> That might make sharing things easy
[20:09:41] <paulej72> michealpwalls: NCommander set up the orginal download link, and it may be on his personal linode.
[20:09:48] <michealpwalls> Not sure how that would work with their terms though :/
[20:09:50] <michealpwalls> Ah, I see
[20:09:57] <paulej72> We could upload it to github :)
[20:10:12] <michealpwalls> It gives out that much space? haha
[20:10:22] <michealpwalls> I never think of github LOL!
[20:10:42] <paulej72> michealpwalls: not sure if it is possible
[20:11:03] <paulej72> we could make a second repo and just put the dev vm in it.
[20:11:07] <michealpwalls> I think, because of mod_perl/apache (I could be entirely wrong, but I can't figure it out in my head...) a really nice IDE isn't going to be possible :/
[20:11:13] <michealpwalls> With debugging and etc..
[20:11:37] <michealpwalls> I don't see how it could manage, since it can't just feed it into perl. Or do you have any ideas for that? :/
[20:12:13] <chromas> Is there a new uri for the tracker?
[20:12:29] <paulej72> michealpwalls: right now the dv vm is cli only. If you install the GUI stuff, you can set it up as your IDE
[20:12:35] <chromas> I have a copy but I guess the old uri doesn't work
[20:13:19] <michealpwalls> Yea I was going to install Geany so I had gui code navigation and syntax highlighting without any fuss. Although what I'm *really* looking for, is inline debugging...
[20:13:44] <michealpwalls> So that when I start messing around with things, the IDE can show me where breakages are. I can start running it and pause execution to inspect objects and variables..
[20:14:03] <michealpwalls> I can change the contents and then step-through iteratively etc. etc. I can't get that working
[20:14:09] <paulej72> michealpwalls: yes I understand, but at least the slash install works fast on the vm
[20:14:31] <paulej72> chromas: I think there is a new uri for the torrent
[20:15:06] <michealpwalls> We have to make changes in our editor, run it and observe it as it's running. Maybe there's more to debugging mod_perl programs than I'm aware, though. Once I get the vm setup I'm going to explore more LOL I havent' entirely given up!
[20:15:09] <michealpwalls> Just given up on Windows haha
[20:16:31] <paulej72> michealpwalls: slash is fairly good at sending errors to the logs. You can usually figure out what is wrong by just looking at the error messages.
[20:18:42] <paulej72> ~/apache/logs/soylent-mainpage_error_log, and ~/slascode/site/soylent-mainpage/logs/
[20:23:10] <chromas> Torrent patched and seeding
[20:23:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> slash is wicked fun in how it generates rss. except for the part where it's difficult as shit to parse with the human brain.
[20:24:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> thankfully i had a thunderstorm roll in and got a $deity delivered break for the day.
[20:27:44] <chromas> Or not. tracker.soylent.news also throws error
[20:27:51] <michealpwalls> slash reminds me of a (untrue) story of NASA engineers spending ridiculous amounts of time and money to develop a pen that worked in space.. When all they needed to do was bring a pencil.
[20:28:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> then they'd have to build a pencil sharpener that works in space
[20:28:34] <michealpwalls> The story isn't true, but it's hilarious and slashcode reminds me of it all the time :P
[20:28:43] <michealpwalls> haha TheMightyBuzzard. Wouldn't a knife work? :/
[20:28:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> if you wanted wood chips floating around for the whole trip
[20:29:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> 0g is sneaky like that
[20:31:37] <chromas> TheMightyBuzzard: Triying out yaourt. It's Vista-ing at me, though
[20:31:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> asking you for the password repeatedly?
[20:32:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> does that when you'd normally need to use sudo but it times out after like 15m
[20:32:42] <chromas> No. Each package it says it's unsafe in blink tags, asks if I want to edit the file, then asks if I want to continue installing, then asks if I want to continue installing
[20:33:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> funky. doesn't do the same in pacman?
[20:33:24] <chromas> pacman doesn't build from aur
[20:33:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> hrm...
[20:33:42] <chromas> Oops, "unsupported" not unsafe
[20:34:07] <chromas> But it nicely goes on with the others
[20:34:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, yeah.
[20:34:37] <chromas> pacaur just quits if any one package in the list is missing (or it thinks it is)
[20:35:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah the double asking is annoying for certain
[20:35:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> no idea about the blink tags though. i never got em and this install isn't all that old.
[20:36:03] <chromas> It's not really html; the text is actually blinking at me
[20:36:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod, terminal codes.
[20:36:32] <chromas> I don't think I've seen that since DOS
[20:36:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, mostly people have better manners
[20:37:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> is prolly a setting to turn it off but i want a sandwich more than i want to be helpful just this moment.
[20:37:21] <ciri> "Something something burbury colored hats turn up.
[20:37:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> so i'll let you google or man it
[20:37:54] <chromas> lol
[20:38:01] <chromas> Don't forget sudo
[20:38:14] <chromas> Thanks for the pointer(s). Arch is fun
[20:39:48] <chromas> yaourt is so close to yogurt, which is a word that sounds phlegmmy
[20:40:39] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Tax Free Internet's Expiration Date - http://sylnt.us - you-have-the-right-to-be-taxed
[20:41:08] <chromas> Everybody buy now! Tax Friday is upon us!
[20:42:14] <n1> just made me wonder if there's a patron saint of tax collectors
[20:46:48] <chromas> Yeah, they're called the republicans. and the democrats
[20:47:05] <chromas> or whatever in your country of choice
[20:47:38] <n1> heh
[20:47:48] <n1> liars and thieves
[20:48:38] <chromas> They want the taxes collected, just not from them but to them
[20:49:21] <n1> we cant be trusted, they know whats best for us.
[20:49:41] <chromas> That's true. If it wasn't for them, I wouldn't be giving them money
[20:50:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> s'awesome how they take our money by force to use for our own good
[20:50:40] <n1> heh
[20:51:15] <n1> well, i asked the question why the 'culture secretary' for my country would become a politician after earning millions a year as a banker
[20:51:31] <n1> i was informed "he probably decided he wanted to give back to the community and help society"
[20:51:32] <chromas> How else was Bernie going to pay for the Mazaradi?
[20:51:38] <chromas> No wait, that was insurance fraud
[20:51:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> n1, lmao
[20:52:04] <chromas> lol
[20:52:45] <n1> and when people think like that, you cant have a constructive conversation
[20:54:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can't have a constructive conversation about politics that isn't hypothetical anyway until you have destructive action
[20:56:20] <n1> i used an example of how certain local governments, all from the same national party were pushing for 'gassifiers'(incinerators) which wern't cost effective and the local governments would have to borrow hundred of millions to fund them, and getting a foreign company to build them.
[20:56:40] <n1> the response was "well the person who wrote that is no doubt a <opposition> voter."
[20:57:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> partisans, because just being a garden variety moron isn't enough for some people
[20:58:48] <n1> well, they believed all the political parties were corrupt and we need independents... but in the same breath, the liberals are far more corrupt and dangerous to the country.
[20:59:20] <n1> so they'll continue to vote against the liberals, not for independents.
[20:59:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> weird, that's the reason i vote for liberals.
[21:00:10] <n1> LOL
[21:00:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> i figure the quicker we tear shit up but good, the quicker we get to shoot all the bastards and start over.
[21:00:29] <n1> you see, i'd go with that - except i considered voting liberal before.
[21:00:51] <n1> and once in a position of power, they became clones of 'establishment' politicians.
[21:01:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> i dunno, i certainly got my money's worth out of barak
[21:01:33] <n1> heh
[21:01:46] <n1> to be fair, i think either way you voted in the US
[21:01:52] <n1> you're heading to disaster just as quickly
[21:02:04] <n1> possibly taking a different route, but the results are going to be close enough.
[21:02:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> mmm, quite likely but i think the libs edge out the cons a bit in the destructive insanity department.
[21:03:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> especially on taxes, which we have a history of getting annoyed over as a nation.
[21:04:10] <n1> well, here at least, it has failed, as the liberals got into power(of sorts) and from what i have seen, lost all their votes by assimilating with the establishment.
[21:04:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> usually the case here too
[21:04:43] <n1> so the chances of them getting any votes next time, are very slim
[21:05:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> they'll have like 3 pet things they want done then do exactly what the other party would have done on everything else.
[21:05:46] <n1> the government has had it very good really... because the government (and their voter base) will blame the liberals for every failure or every problem.
[21:06:16] <n1> so the conservative element of government can do what ever they want, even if it's totally against their own ideology and because the liberals will support that, it will be their fault and the conservatives wont lose votes
[21:06:43] <n1> but the liberals wont gain any because of the other broken promises
[21:06:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> heh
[21:07:41] <n1> the conservatives did make a good play though, gay marriage. which is abhorrent to most of their voter base (but wont stop them voting, because it was the liberal agenda), but will win some hearts and minds of people who otherwise wouldn't have voted for them.
[21:07:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> right now i think taxes will push us towards tossing the bastards out quickest but you've got to keep an eye on yoinking liberties too because that also works really well.
[21:08:17] <n1> mhm
[21:08:30] <n1> using here as an example again
[21:08:42] <n1> the 'conservatives' business friendly people, tax reducing folk
[21:08:49] <n1> "reduced the top rate of tax"
[21:08:57] <n1> which is great, everyone sings and dances, awesome.
[21:09:11] <n1> but what they have done a good job of hiding, is the threshold for that top rate
[21:09:14] <n1> is lower than it was
[21:09:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> same here. gets lower percentage-wise every year.
[21:09:46] <n1> so the top rate is lower, but people with less money are in that bracket, which i guess brings up "more people in top rate of tax"
[21:09:50] <n1> which then works for other agendas
[21:10:22] <n1> but thats ignored or even denied because the PR focuses on "under the last government the top rate was x and under us it's y"
[21:10:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> lies by irrelevant numbers, yep
[21:11:01] <n1> same as the leaflet i got through the door, "we cut the deficit by 30%"
[21:11:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> like our unemployment rate
[21:11:17] <n1> what they don't like to mention is that government debt is still increasing by 100bn a year.
[21:11:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's dropping because more and more people give up looking for work and those who give up don't count as unemployed anymore.
[21:11:39] <n1> very much like your employment rate
[21:11:49] <n1> the 'workforce' numbers are very enlighteninga
[21:12:03] <n1> the current government here is pushing for similar methods to reduce unemployment
[21:12:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's hilarious if you're a scorched earth type like me.
[21:12:53] <n1> the government here has set up 'workfare' which if you've been unemployed for a long time, you may be told to work for free for a large company
[21:13:02] <n1> so the government will still give you money for being unemployed
[21:13:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> i've been considering learning to play the violin so i can Nero it up more properly
[21:13:52] <n1> i'm starting to feel like a scorched earth type - but i have to ignore it as much as i can, it's unpleasant to have those feelings in a city of many millions.
[21:14:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> hard but true, there was no other way to get rid of all the old wooden buildings and rebuild with stone.
[21:15:26] <n1> i dont get your point?
[21:15:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> nero and rome. they were having horrible issues with fire because of all the old wooden buildings so close together.
[21:16:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> so he let it burn.
[21:16:08] <n1> ah
[21:16:09] <ciri> Swiss, ah oke.
[21:17:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> i forget what he did to keep them from rebuilding with wood. probably an imperial decree or huge tax or something.
[21:17:19] <n1> they've started building more with wood again here
[21:17:21] <n1> it's quicker and cheaper
[21:17:32] <n1> ive been in so many new developments and they're just terrible
[21:18:19] <n1> no solid walls, everything is cheap, odd shaped apartments to increase the numbers
[21:18:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> we're pretty much entirely wood outside multi-story buildings but we have a we bit more room to act as fire breaks.
[21:18:54] <n1> you just spent $500,000 and you can hear your neighbours open their kitchen cupboards.
[21:19:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> heh
[21:19:26] <n1> and you have to have your closet in the hallway, because the bedroom is exactly that
[21:19:31] <n1> a room for a bed.
[21:19:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> for $500k, i wouldn't have neighbors here. at least not ones i could see with a set of binoculars.
[21:19:52] <n1> $500k here, you'd be in a bad part of town with lots of neighbours
[21:20:12] * n1 wants to escape
[21:20:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> i think my house cost like $75k. four bedroom and a quarter acre of grass.
[21:21:23] <n1> a friend of mine was recently working on a house for a client, just refreshing/updating
[21:22:02] <n1> it was a 4 bed 2 bath house - added $350,000 to the value in 2 weeks.
[21:22:08] <LaminatorX|out2lunch> Gotta love Stl Louis. 3bdrm in good shape in the best school district in the state only $170K
[21:22:31] <n1> so the house is now worth about $1.1m
[21:22:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> ouch
[21:23:13] <n1> the cost of that work to add the $350,000? My friend made about $2500, the total cost was about $30,000
[21:23:22] LaminatorX|out2lunch is now known as LaminatorX
[21:24:14] <n1> it pays to have money, or at least assets to secure a mortgage to make a quick couple hundred grand on a flip.
[21:24:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> sounds like
[21:24:35] <n1> the house is currently rented for about $8000 a month
[21:24:44] <Woods> I live in a crappy apartment. And will be moving to a slightly less crappy apartment soon. I will save about $200 on rent, yeah.
[21:24:57] <n1> ^5 Woods
[21:25:41] <Woods> It is basically across the street from my favorite restaurant, Chipotle. I am so excited.
[21:25:54] <n1> thats a good deal
[21:26:01] <n1> cheaper, better, convinient
[21:26:36] <Woods> Indeed, switching from a 1br to a studio, I do not use the extra space, so there is no downside.
[21:26:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> was recently looking for a place to relocate to for a year or two, four bedroom places in the Jackson TN area topped out about $2k/month
[21:27:22] <n1> probably quite nice places, i'd think?
[21:27:32] <Woods> TheMightyBuzzard: Might I sugest Kansas City? We have Google Fiber here!
[21:27:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> allegedly. they ran as low as $650/month
[21:28:04] <n1> 650 for a 4bed?
[21:28:07] <Woods> Wow
[21:28:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep
[21:28:10] <n1> fuck
[21:28:14] <Woods> How many of those bedrooms are actually closets?
[21:28:19] <n1> i used to pay about half that for a parking space...
[21:29:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> perks of having fucktons of land, wood, and mexican carpenters.
[21:29:05] <n1> Woods, if it was here.. they would all be closets.
[21:29:13] <Woods> lol
[21:30:05] <n1> i'd be happy with the land and timber, mexicans are a bonus.
[21:30:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> expatriate for a bit. could be fun.
[21:31:12] <n1> i did already for 2 years, not to the US though.
[21:31:29] <n1> i don't think they'd let me in, they didnt want to even when i had my last visit.
[21:31:57] <n1> they didn't believe 'electronic visas' existed.
[21:31:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> thankfully they can't kick me out.
[21:32:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> ha
[21:32:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> sounds about right
[21:32:17] <n1> for my onward journey i only had an email print out from the australian government.
[21:32:52] <n1> i wanted to say "damn it, i'm from London, England, i don't want to be an illegal immigrant in the USA."
[21:33:58] <n1> contrast that with two weeks later *scan passport* "Welcome to Australia!"
[21:35:30] <Woods> We are kinda picky about people around here.
[21:36:10] <n1> i have never been to another country where i felt like a criminal for just being at immigration control
[21:36:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> not that bad really but we do have stupidly low quotas
[21:36:34] <n1> i've been all over and nothing has compared to that
[21:37:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah well, welcome to the US. we get the same just flying one state to another.
[21:37:04] <Woods> n1: Just wait until you are an actual criminal, it is not much better.
[21:37:35] <n1> ive have friends who had similar experiences too, went to the US for a sci-fi convention and got harassed and the immigration official tried to trick them into saying they were there to work
[21:37:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> i keep expecting the TSA agents to ask me for my papers in a thick, german accent
[21:38:00] <n1> lol
[21:39:18] <n1> made me think of the quite awesome game, "papers please"
[21:39:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> telling you, nothing short of Emperor Buzzard I could fix this place without another revolution.
[21:40:50] <n1> yeah, that is of course if you think it's broken
[21:41:04] <n1> a small but powerful percentage think it's working quite well...
[21:41:16] <Woods> I am offended at your insinuation, n1.
[21:41:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> only the politicians really
[21:41:25] <Woods> haha! Just kidding. Oh god, could you imagine if I was though?
[21:41:42] <n1> lol
[21:42:26] <n1> TheMightyBuzzard, politicians and elements of 'big business'
[21:42:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, even business gets screwed here compared to what I'd do.
[21:43:02] <n1> business in general isn't the question
[21:43:15] <n1> it's the multi-billion businesses that deal with government extensively
[21:43:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> even them
[21:43:45] <n1> using a local example, i'm pretty sur Serco is quite happy with things as they are.
[21:43:56] <n1> sure*
[21:43:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> they'd be damned happy about paying no taxes, though less happy about being forbidden any political interaction/speech.
[21:44:28] <n1> well, the no taxes thing works quite well when your operations are based in ireland or british overseas territories
[21:45:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> i just figure people pay taxes and have rights, businesses are not people.
[21:45:24] <n1> i agree
[21:45:46] <n1> but then whats to stop the owner of said business, making millions and translating that into political interaction/speech
[21:45:47] <ciri> They'd be damned happy about being forbidden any political interaction/speech.
[21:46:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> n1, single owner business? not a thing.
[21:46:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> they have to pay taxes on any money they take out of the business though, so there you go.
[21:46:45] <n1> it would be a simpler system, but i dont see that changing the political landscape
[21:47:14] <n1> they'd use the money they didnt pay tax on to say how unfair it is that their low wage workers get taxed on x, so tax should be a flat and half of what it is
[21:47:16] <n1> even under your syste
[21:47:18] <n1> system*
[21:47:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> it really wouldn't that much. it would significantly improve the economic situation though.
[21:47:31] <n1> because while there is tax, anyone paying it will always think it's too much.
[21:47:39] <n1> or most people
[21:47:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh tax would be flat. 15% give or take. and senators could only spend what they took in.
[21:48:16] <n1> would there be a lower 'living wage' threshold?
[21:48:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> no but i do have an idea about that
[21:48:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> figure a barely liveable wage and offer it to anyone who wants to take it.
[21:49:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> for the low low cost of their right to ever vote again.
[21:49:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> index it to inflation.
[21:49:29] <LaminatorX> That's insane. People have ups and downs in their lives.
[21:49:32] <n1> ever again?
[21:49:36] <n1> because thats pretty harsh
[21:49:43] <n1> maybe during the peroid they're taking it
[21:49:45] <n1> LaminatorX, indeed.
[21:49:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> LaminatorX, yeah but nobody's saying they have to take it.
[21:50:01] <n1> "you could starve, or lose your voice forever, your choice"
[21:50:05] <LaminatorX> Desperation says you have to take it.
[21:50:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> n1 unemployment insurance will still exist
[21:50:26] <n1> most people would be thinking in the short term.
[21:50:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> that's simply to weed out the long-term mooches.
[21:51:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> the type of person who would give up their vote for crap pay is the kind you really don't want taking part in national decisions.
[21:51:27] <n1> people need something to work for
[21:51:35] <n1> thats what i see as a problem right now
[21:51:49] <n1> "you can work really hard, and eventually you'll be in the position to take on a lot of debt, so you can have your own home"
[21:51:55] <n1> thats not inspiring anyone
[21:52:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> there's still plenty to work for here, you just have to be willing and not believe the libs who say there isn't.
[21:52:30] <n1> from my own experience
[21:52:38] <n1> a lot of the 'work' is a load of shit
[21:53:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> drawing a wage usually is.
[21:53:27] <n1> i worked 7 days a week to break even as a contractor
[21:53:31] <LaminatorX> The "moocher" as defined in public myth is so rare in reality as to not be worth considering in policy. Most people on public assistance are young rural single mothers who manage to get off of it once their kids are school age and they can hold a fulltime job again.
[21:53:38] <n1> the targets are unrealstic and are designed so you can't reach them
[21:53:42] <n1> but can make 'just enough' to live on
[21:54:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> LaminatorX, the philosophical moocher is what i was talking about. the kind who wants the government to do things for them.
[21:54:27] <n1> and there are companies who are unethical, also from personal experience
[21:54:39] <n1> and i can't work for a company that is ripping off its customers, even if i'm making a reasonable wage
[21:55:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> n1 pretty much all of them. following the law is just good business practice for the most part.
[21:55:57] <n1> so we have to leave our morals at the door when we go to work?
[21:56:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, you just get better enforcement and make it not worth their while to cheat people.
[21:56:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> you don't expect them to be moral in the first place
[21:56:42] <n1> 'big government strangling business'
[21:57:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> literally in my theoretical case.
[21:57:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> with a rope, televised.
[21:58:06] <n1> i dont think it's good that people are moochers, but i can't blame them for it in many ways, and a degree of 'mooching' is the only way ive been able to survive
[21:58:18] <n1> people on government assistance have been the most helpful to me when i've been having bad times
[21:59:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'd prefer to put my efforts to making sure that doesn't happen and providing only minimal cushioning for when it does.
[21:59:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> saves you and all other taxpayers money.
[21:59:38] <n1> i've never claimed any government assistance, im thankful i've avoided it so far but i cant deny the help it's given me through other people
[22:00:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> i've drawn unemployment but i've paid far, far more than i've ever drawn.
[22:00:13] <n1> i agree with your sentiment, but people have to have a real way to get out of it
[22:00:24] <n1> rather than "if you work really really hard, then maybe one day you will be in a better situation"
[22:00:38] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - What We Are Going To Be: The Manifesto - http://sylnt.us - #define-soylentnews
[22:00:46] <n1> working hard doesn't mean shit, being motivated and dedicated doesn't ensure things will get better
[22:00:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> hard work never got anyone anywhere except moderately unpoor
[22:01:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> working smart is what gets you places.
[22:01:10] <n1> although here, you get to be moderately unpoor by working, as long as the government still helps
[22:01:22] <n1> because otherwise the housing market would crash and massively devalue our economy
[22:01:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> ahh.
[22:01:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can live, barely, in most areas off what the lowest paying jobs pay. just not in expensive cities.
[22:02:32] <n1> yeah, you can do it here too, but then people have aspirations, and move to the big cities to where they can 'make it'
[22:02:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> and you quite likely will need a roommate
[22:02:40] <n1> and people still need to do the low paying jobs, even in expensive cities
[22:03:06] <n1> for a brief time, i lived in a real bad area
[22:03:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> right but again, hard work will never let you make it
[22:03:19] <LaminatorX> Righ now though, minimal cushioning doesn't even exist. I fell off a roof a few years back, and was in a wheelchair for a while. I didn't qualify for unemployment because I technically quit my job when I got hurt, but I didn't qualify for temp disability because I was going to be back on my feet in less than two years.
[22:03:21] <n1> $500 a month for a room, sharing a house with 3 other people + taxes, bills and expenses.
[22:03:48] <n1> and that was in the cheapest area of london, still a long journey from the 'city'
[22:03:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> LaminatorX, you found a pretty fucked up crack in the system, yep.
[22:04:16] <n1> LaminatorX, i have a good friend in a very similar situation
[22:04:34] <n1> still employed, but was out for nearly 3 months because hurt themselves at work (in the US)
[22:04:43] <LaminatorX> I had just started a new job, and didn't have health coverage yet. I ran through all my savings trying to stay afloat, but ended up loosing my house anyway.
[22:04:49] <n1> 2 minimum wage jobs and now $40,000 in medical bills.
[22:05:17] <n1> from an accident that happened at work but it's all kinds of grey areas, so it's now lawyer time.
[22:05:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> should have been union. unions around here can spend 9 months out of the year on short-term disability as long as they come back to work for a month every so often.
[22:05:54] <n1> one of those people that believes in 'hard work' and all that, technically self-employed also
[22:05:55] <ciri> I want a sandwich more than one significant date aside from hearing people talk about it but just never got em and this track completely laid me out.
[22:07:27] <n1> 'im a hard working independent person' until an accident happens and then you're fucked.
[22:07:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> okay, whose bot is ciri?
[22:07:46] <n1> no idea.
[22:08:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> n1, i've been pretty fucked before. penniless and homeless even. it sucks but you can climb back out of it without help if you can/will work.
[22:09:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> the mosquitos were the worst part.
[22:09:28] <n1> penniless and homeless is pretty bad, i'm glad you got out of it.
[22:09:41] <n1> but the problem is for most people now, penniless means -$$$$$
[22:09:58] <n1> and when that happens through nothing more than bad luck, it's a pretty nasty trap people end up in
[22:09:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, i don't do huge debt.
[22:10:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> i save and never pay more than half the value out.
[22:10:48] <n1> i don't do debt, well i do but only for business... and i'm lucky to be here for the 'free' healthcare
[22:10:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> cause taking on more debt than you can handle isn't just how things are, it's colossaly stupid.
[22:11:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> people just aren't taught how to handle their money anymore.
[22:11:59] <LaminatorX> I met a homeless couple on Christmas, they were living on the street with their child. Both their families had turned their backs on them because of their mixed race relationship. They were willing to work, but there weren't any oppostunities for them to do so on their own behond just a few hours work here and there doing day labor.
[22:12:07] <n1> TheMightyBuzzard, you're right people arn't taught
[22:12:21] <n1> but a lot of that is, because if they were sensible, 'growth' wouldn't be where it is
[22:13:00] <n1> everyone would be hoarding for a rainy day and living very carefully, not buying useless widgets
[22:13:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> LaminatorX, i took a job detailing cars at a car lot, slept in the woods, and bathed/laundered in a creek. it's all relative.
[22:13:46] <LaminatorX> Is that a good thing though? Should that have been your lot?
[22:13:58] <n1> the trend here seems to be use the foreign workers for those kind of jobs, even if local workers apply
[22:14:13] <n1> but the foreign workers wont complain about dangerous working conditions of 'adjustments' to their pay
[22:14:20] <n1> or*
[22:14:23] -!- Subsentient [Subsentient!~WhiteRat@universe2.us/Subsentient] has joined #Soylent
[22:14:35] <Woods> Hmm?
[22:14:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> LaminatorX, yep, pretty much. i was the one who put myself in that position by pissing away my savings.
[22:14:56] <Woods> Oh, right... Not me.
[22:15:16] <n1> i think you'd know if he'd done that, Woods.
[22:15:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> LaminatorX, also it's really not undoable. builds character even.
[22:15:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> Woods, yeah, my bad. go back to your doings.
[22:15:51] <LaminatorX> Good on you for coming back from those hardships, but I don't think there's any reason why people in such an affluent nation should be on the streets.
[22:16:06] <Woods> lol
[22:16:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> LaminatorX, plenty of reasons they should be. Foolish should never be subsidized for starters.
[22:16:44] <n1> i agree, LaminatorX. I also think that just because i've been through hardships it should become a right of passage, or expected that people should face hardships through circumstance.
[22:16:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> LaminatorX, shit luck, to a degree sure but not stupidity.
[22:18:29] <n1> not having received a decent education, or even being below 'average' intelligence shouldn't be a crime where poverty is the punishment.
[22:18:50] <LaminatorX> Foolish bankers get far more subsidy than the poor.
[22:19:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> n1, not speaking of intelligence but wisdom. plenty of that in the uneducated.
[22:19:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> LaminatorX, i fully agree and would be happy to fix that.
[22:21:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> side note, i feel for whoever's pulling the vm torrent off of me. i have fairly crap upload speed.
[22:22:45] <n1> it takes all kinds of people to make a society, and i think it's foolish in itself to expect everyone to be self-motivated, aspirational people with a focus on economic activity. people shouldn't get a 'free ride' for just being lazy, but there should be more incentive to work beyond "work hard or we'll make sure you starve, work hard enough and you can die an industrial accident and get out
[22:22:45] <n1> of this misery"
[22:23:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> hunger is a hell of a motivator though...
[22:23:31] <n1> i think focusing on the 'moochers' of the moment is more of a symptom and especially for people born into it, they can be a victim of circumstance
[22:23:47] <n1> but yeah, and then morals go out the window, because you're so damn hungry, you'll do anything for food/money
[22:23:54] <n1> and that's not something i'd want to see encouraged
[22:23:56] <LaminatorX> Hunger is tremendously destructive.
[22:24:01] <n1> "it's ok as lonh as you're making that money"
[22:24:03] <n1> long*
[22:24:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> make for a great CEO, wouldn't they?
[22:24:43] <LaminatorX> Long term hunger destroys the effectiveness of whatever wisdom you have, There have been studies. The stress just fucks up your brain.
[22:25:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah a revamp of the education system could cure a lot of this.
[22:25:25] <LaminatorX> If you grow up with it, you perform worse throughout your life, the developmental effects never go away.
[22:25:50] <n1> it depends what your goal is with this, for people to have better lives which they enjoy
[22:25:57] <n1> or get he most 'economic output' that you can
[22:26:00] <LaminatorX> The extraordinary may still rise to the top is they can find/make opportunity, but the average and worse just get dragged down.
[22:26:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> the two aren't mutually incompatible
[22:29:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> seriously though, people need to be told things like "going to college is not having a skill. having a skill is having a skill."
[22:29:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> and "don't get in debt up to your eyeballs because something WILL go wrong and then you're going to be fucked"
[22:30:25] <n1> i dont disagree with that at all.
[22:30:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> they need to know that FAR more than they need to be able to quote Shakespeare
[22:31:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> should have a class on how not to be an enormous honking moron that's required every year throughout public education.
[22:32:30] <Blackmoore> that might put a lot of politicians and school admins out of work.
[22:32:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, it would be awesome
[22:32:45] <Blackmoore> but i do like the idea
[22:33:02] <n1> i do as well, but all these ideas create more unemployment in what i think we agree are pretty useless jobs
[22:33:12] <n1> but then we'll have many millions more, without real 'skills' and also unemployed
[22:33:24] <n1> as well as the young people missing the reform just entering the job market
[22:33:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> n1 wages would be required to rise then to fill the positions, wouldn't they?
[22:33:39] <Blackmoore> personally I think people should have to perform a month of physical labor, just so they understand what in hell that feels like
[22:33:52] <n1> the positions wouldn't exist anymore
[22:33:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> Blackmoore, plumbing.
[22:34:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> Blackmoore, quite literally putting up with other people's shit.
[22:34:22] <Blackmoore> plumbing, ranching, garbage collection..
[22:34:30] <n1> Blackmoore, i used to think that - being someone who did 'hard work'
[22:34:47] <n1> but now i realize sitting behind a desk is equally taxing, but not physically
[22:35:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> i know exactly what hard work is and precisely why i never want to do it again.
[22:35:18] <n1> i feel better for doing a hard day of manual labour than i do spending 12hours or more sitting at my desk.
[22:35:20] <Blackmoore> I've been there. and sometimes I'd much rather be physically exhausted, in place of the emotionally, or mental exhaustion
[22:35:34] <n1> TheMightyBuzzard, hard work shouldn't be associated to seeing how close you can get to killing yourself.
[22:35:46] <SirFinkus> manual labor feels worse when you're doing it, but awesome after you're done
[22:36:10] <SirFinkus> nothing better than a cold drink after working your ass off
[22:36:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> strangely, the physical and mental exhaustion of boot camp wasn't nearly as stressful as an office job. it was even enjoyable.
[22:36:11] <ciri> The tali is tempting, since it's a really good group and they can hold a fulltime job again.
[22:36:18] <n1> that was much my point, SirFinkus, in the moment it sucks but after it's pretty awesome... if i spend a day at my desk, i dont feel better after i walk away.
[22:36:33] <Blackmoore> well, yws n1 but there is a lot of work that isn't farming or mining.
[22:36:44] <SirFinkus> desk jobs can kind of have that feeling, if you finish a huge project or something
[22:36:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep
[22:37:19] <Blackmoore> the closest i camt to that on a desk job was a gd nervous breakdown after i completed the project
[22:37:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> s'why i like hitting at least one little bug before i tackle a big one.
[22:37:57] <SirFinkus> that's another nice thing about manual labor
[22:38:07] <SirFinkus> usually, when you're done for the day, you're just done
[22:38:20] <SirFinkus> don't have to think about shit once you leave
[22:38:52] <Blackmoore> yup
[22:38:55] <LaminatorX> I once spent a day cleaning up a trash-truck depot. I literally picked up after the garbage men.
[22:39:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> okay, i'm leaving it to you lads to sort out the world's problems. going to go be productive on something that pays.
[22:39:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> i expect results when i get back.
[22:39:42] <n1> laters, TheMightyBuzzard
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[22:40:31] <Blackmoore> *nods* (would make joke about society ending virus, but cant make it work)
[22:40:38] <n1> LaminatorX, i like jobs like that, stops me from thinking, or having to think. the physical effects are unpleasant at times, but giving the brain a break isn't a bad thing, especially if still managing to be productive.
[22:41:12] <SirFinkus> best of both worlds is biking to work and back
[22:41:50] <n1> SirFinkus, i wanted to start cycling again, but as someone who also drives, it seems quite scary and unpleasant.
[22:42:03] <n1> cycling in london is having a death wish i have concluded.
[22:42:13] <SirFinkus> yeah, I've seen the videos
[22:42:31] <SirFinkus> my town is pretty nice for cycling, I'd probably still do it if it wasn't though
[22:42:48] <n1> thats cool, make the most of it
[22:42:56] <SirFinkus> main thing is you need be paying attention 100% of the time
[22:43:03] <SirFinkus> because people will try and kill you
[22:43:23] <n1> they dont seem to pay attention here often
[22:43:28] <n1> and if they are, they're being dicks about it.
[22:43:43] <n1> trying to 'own the road' whilst doing 10mph in a 50
[22:44:21] <SirFinkus> well, depending on the situation, that can be the safest thing to do
[22:44:52] <n1> any time i've been a cyclist, even before i started driving... my main point of observation was "get the fuck out the way"
[22:45:02] <n1> if i heard a car behind me at any time, i'd make sure i was as out the way as i could be.
[22:45:21] <SirFinkus> some roads are too narrow to have people pass safely
[22:45:34] <n1> and im pretty sick of cyclists blaming truck drivers for running them over, when they're cutting up the inside
[22:45:45] <n1> "where do you think that truck is going to end up when it keeps turning?"
[22:46:04] <n1> the running of traffic signals is just constant too
[22:46:06] <SirFinkus> cyclists who run red lights
[22:46:08] <SirFinkus> assholes
[22:46:10] <n1> aye
[22:46:23] <SirFinkus> the absolute worst ones are the ones who go the wrong way
[22:46:23] <n1> they'll dangerously weave through traffic to run a red
[22:46:27] <n1> then not let people pass
[22:47:16] <LaminatorX> Safest thing to do on a cycle is ride as part of traffic and obey all the rules just like every other vehicle.
[22:47:39] <SirFinkus> ^
[22:47:44] <n1> a few weeks ago i saw a mother cycling on the sidewalk with a young child following behind, they decided to go on the road at a major junction
[22:48:02] <n1> where cars frequently go through at 40mph or so and it's quite dangerous and hard to predict at the best of times
[22:48:15] <n1> and this mother wanted her roughly 6 year old child to cycle through it...
[22:48:18] <LaminatorX> ^ which was more dangerous than riding in traffic would have been.
[22:48:48] <n1> the sidewalk was very wide and may have even had a cycle lane on it
[22:48:51] <SirFinkus> the most dangerous thing cyclists can be is unpredictable
[22:48:57] <n1> there's a lot of sidewalks with 'cycle lanes' painted on them here
[22:49:08] <n1> sometimes they last for all of 10ft but they're there.
[22:49:30] <SirFinkus> darting in and out of sidewalks and crosswalks is a great way to surprise drivers
[22:49:48] <n1> the safe thing to do would have been get off the bikes and walk across when the signals allowed for pedestrians to do so
[22:50:06] <LaminatorX> I'm actually anti-bike lanes. They make for dangerous criss-crossing at intersections, which is actually far riskier than a close pass from over your shoulder. The motorist passing you sees you.
[22:50:38] <Blackmoore> cycles whould have a lane on the sidewalk. out of traffic
[22:51:01] <n1> here they're mostly on the sidewalk and have the same markings as regular traffic
[22:51:14] <n1> just because you're a 'cyclist' doesn't mean you can ignore the 'give way' or 'stop' signals
[22:51:16] <SirFinkus> bike lanes are better than nothing
[22:51:26] <LaminatorX> I bike commuted for about two years, did a lot of research. Lots of stuff is surprising. Lights are actually a much bigger safety factor for adults than helmets.
[22:51:32] <Blackmoore> here (if you can find them) they are poorly implemented along the shoulder of the road
[22:51:50] <n1> LaminatorX, i'd agree with that i think. Getting cyclists to pay attention to lights is not easy it seems.
[22:52:03] <Blackmoore> so if a car breaks down, now you have to go around them..
[22:52:37] <LaminatorX> I meant headlights and tail lights. Number one way to get hurt on a bike is to enter an intersection at night while running dark.
[22:52:44] <n1> oh right
[22:52:55] <n1> i see so many going around at night without lights
[22:53:10] <Blackmoore> yeah that makes sense. very hard to see at night.
[22:53:20] <n1> it makes me really angry, the lights when used properly do really help
[22:53:24] <LaminatorX> Helmets have only had demonstrated efficacy in terms of accident/injury/fatality rates in children.
[22:53:41] <n1> but they need to be good ones, and it would also be ideal if your jacket didn't cover the rear one...
[22:53:47] <SirFinkus> there's actually evidence that they can make things more dangerous for adults
[22:54:23] <SirFinkus> because drivers subconsciously perceive the riders as being tougher and pass closer than they would if the cyclist wasn't wearing a helmet
[22:54:23] <LaminatorX> I usually only wear one if it's slippery out, or if I'm riding with children.
[22:54:51] <SirFinkus> they decrease situational awareness as well
[22:55:40] <n1> when i was at school, there was a cycling course we took, which was very good
[22:55:59] <n1> but im under the impression now, most cyclists feel they can do what they like "because it's better for the envrionment than you car"
[22:56:20] <LaminatorX> Nothing like feeling entitled.
[22:56:25] <n1> "im saving the planet, you're killing it, you cant tell me what to do!"
[22:56:42] <n1> and i would agree, but because the law says i can do something on the roads with my car
[22:56:45] <n1> doesn't mean it's safe to do so
[22:59:54] <n1> im done raging against cyclists, cycling is awesome.
[23:00:20] <LaminatorX> Cycling is awesome. Shitty cyclists are annoying.
[23:00:23] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - High Energy Density Flexible Super-Capacitor - http://sylnt.us - everything-should-come-with-batteries
[23:00:23] <ciri> Rofl http://sylnt.us - they-wont-be-coding-anything-then.
[23:02:27] MrBluze|afk is now known as MrBluze
[23:04:03] <SirFinkus> well, donetsk and lugansk have voted to leave ukraine and are asking to join the russian federation
[23:04:35] <n1> thanks for that update, SirFinkus - i havn't actually checked the 'real' news today
[23:04:43] <n1> can't say i'm surprised
[23:05:13] <MrBluze> so the ukrainian army will calmly back away... not
[23:05:33] <n1> they'll calmly walk away in the same way russia is calmly standing by the sidelines
[23:06:22] <SirFinkus> there are rumors that blackwater is involved too
[23:06:32] <SirFinkus> excuse me, "academy"
[23:07:02] <n1> hah
[23:07:21] <n1> i didnt know they'd moved away from Xe Services or what ever they called themselves after Blackwater got tainted
[23:07:50] <SirFinkus> I mean, they're mercs, they should just embrace it
[23:08:27] <n1> if they keep changing their name it's all good, casual readers of the events will see 'competition' in the market for mercenaries
[23:08:36] <n1> but people invested in the industry will see who gets the job done
[23:09:06] <SirFinkus> well, I don't think mercs have ever been popular among the public
[23:09:28] <n1> not being popular is one thing, having an opinion against is another
[23:09:46] <n1> which if i recall is why they changed from blackwater, because rather than not being a fan, the public began to turn actively against.
[23:10:06] <LaminatorX> They just keep the brand shifting so the dirt the accumulate doesn't rub-off on their "respectable" clients.
[23:10:22] <SirFinkus> I don't understand how these groups are legal in the US
[23:10:38] <n1> exactly my point, but still retaining that brand for the people who hire them
[23:10:42] <SirFinkus> I mean, basically they're murder for hire
[23:10:55] <n1> they protect their clients and keep them by rebranding
[23:11:07] <LaminatorX> Well, their legal status stateside is little better than mall cops or armored car drivers. They just have much better lawyers and friends in high places.
[23:11:16] <n1> i think you'll find it's 'strategic security consultancy'
[23:11:18] <n1> nothing about murder.
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[23:11:36] <n1> it might be very expensive consultancy that also involves men with automatic weapons
[23:11:39] <n1> but thats just a coincidence
[23:11:48] <SirFinkus> just like the mob is in the security business
[23:11:52] <LaminatorX> They shot people in New Orleans after Katrina, but they give their word that it was justified.
[23:11:52] <n1> thats what market forces dictate
[23:12:08] <LaminatorX> Trust them, honest.
[23:12:25] <n1> LaminatorX, if it's anything like where i lived for a while.. it gave the local PD an chance to say
[23:12:27] <n1> "we didnt shoot anyone"
[23:12:33] <n1> (we paid other people to do it for us)
[23:12:54] <SirFinkus> PD here shoots people all the time
[23:12:59] <SirFinkus> hey don't seem to care
[23:13:25] <n1> yeah, depends where you are... here it doesn't go down well, they get it wrong half the time on the rare occasion they shoot people.
[23:13:29] <LaminatorX> It was lawless chaos in the city for several days. The mercs may well have acted appropriately in the situation, but we'll never know.,
[23:13:56] <n1> where i was talking about, they don't like it either, but it happens a lot.... for a while they had contractors doing the shooting - which helped them claim the police wern't shooting people.
[23:14:13] <n1> or 'consultants'
[23:15:14] <n1> LaminatorX, it's a small example of history being written by the winners.
[23:15:18] <n1> the dead cant defend themselves
[23:15:48] <LaminatorX> Exactly.
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[23:18:40] <LaminatorX> I stayed up late listening to radio traffic. There was some freaky stuff. Armed gangs, police stations under seige. Total breakdown of social order. For as much as they made a big show when the relief convoy showed up in front of the cameras, there had beed some National Gaurd units freshly returned from city-fighting in Iraq operating in the city for a couple of days already, putting down gangs.
[23:19:34] <LaminatorX> They called them "Eagles" on the radio. State troopers were "Pelicans." NOPD were "Defenders."
[23:19:37] <n1> that must have been something, i can't even imagine hearing the live radio feed from the emergency services during such an event
[23:20:14] <LaminatorX> I have a fair amount of family down there. it was the closest thing to communication I could manage.
[23:20:23] <n1> can't comprehend the mindeset someone would be in after coming back from iraq and ending up in NO at that time
[23:20:47] <n1> your family made it out ok?
[23:21:44] <LaminatorX> By law, the US Army cant engage with US civilians. The National Gaurd and Coast Gaurd can.
[23:21:51] <LaminatorX> They did, yes. Thanks.
[23:22:44] <SirFinkus> with the equipment cops have these days, it seems like a somewhat petty distinction
[23:23:14] <LaminatorX> That's why the Gaurd gets called in to deal with riots and such, but not the Army.
[23:23:16] <n1> i would imagine through some legal way, civilians can lose that status in a situation that threatens 'national security' or some such
[23:23:38] <n1> maybe they havn't done it yet, i'm sure if they needed to, they could find a way to make it legal
[23:23:54] <SirFinkus> the coast guard already has insane powers
[23:24:06] <SirFinkus> if you're in a boat in US waters, they can search you
[23:24:10] <n1> and whats the status of transfering people from the army/cia/navy/marines to the national guard for a couple of weeks?
[23:24:18] <SirFinkus> with no justification whatsoever
[23:24:37] <LaminatorX> The rule dates back to the occupation of the South after the Civil War. It turns out that having the Army act in lieu of civil authority didn't work out very well.
[23:24:38] <n1> i think most coast guards over the world have that authority
[23:24:51] <SirFinkus> doesn't mean it's good
[23:24:56] <n1> or will at least claim it, and what can you do?
[23:24:58] <n1> i agree.
[23:25:11] <SirFinkus> unless I missed the "unless you're in a boat" part of the 4th amendment
[23:25:45] <n1> well, as the constitution doesnt apply to non-citizens, there might be non-citizens on your boat.
[23:26:01] <SirFinkus> the justification is probably somewhere in that part that lets the feds regulate interstate waterways
[23:26:08] <n1> yup
[23:26:56] <SirFinkus> or the catch-all "commerce clause"
[23:28:48] <n1> everything is commerce as everything has an economic impact
[23:29:07] <n1> as we're capitalist, that's how it works
[23:30:52] <LaminatorX> I think that a lot of that Law of the Sea stuf actually predates the US.
[23:31:43] <n1> the US gov doesn't mind citing and using international law, when it works for their agenda.
[23:33:20] <n1> interesting; "In federal courts in the United States, there is generally no right to a jury trial in admiralty cases."
[23:33:59] <LaminatorX> Where would you find a jury anong the fleet at sea?
[23:33:59] <SirFinkus> are you a maritime lawyer n1?
[23:34:43] <n1> hah
[23:34:48] <LaminatorX> Mind, that no doubt predates modern size ships with hundreds of crew.
[23:34:56] <n1> maybe i should be, a calling i missed!
[23:35:05] <SirFinkus> https://www.youtube.com
[23:35:33] <n1> i dont think you're tried at sea, at least not legally
[23:37:13] <n1> i have never seen arrested development before
[23:37:28] <SirFinkus> you probably should
[23:37:28] <ciri> You can fuk me in that bracket, which is probably why i argue, take care.
[23:37:58] <n1> ive heard good things about it for sure
[23:38:10] <n1> but that usually makes me avoid stuff
[23:38:15] <SirFinkus> it's on netflix
[23:38:31] <SirFinkus> if it makes you feel better, it was never very popular and was cancelled before its time
[23:38:37] <n1> lol
[23:38:41] <n1> that does make me feel better
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[23:39:37] <n1> 68 episodes is still quite a lot
[23:39:49] <n1> crazy americans
[23:40:17] <SirFinkus> it doesn't ever get stale
[23:40:31] <n1> i'll check it out, finally :P
[23:40:46] <n1> it might work in my background tv playlist
[23:41:17] <SirFinkus> ehh, it might be something you need to pay attention to
[23:41:38] <chromas> It didn't seem funny to me when I saw it on tv. But then I saw it on Netflix
[23:42:21] <chromas> So maybe Fox just puts out homor-interrupting vibes
[23:42:59] <SirFinkus> animated family guy adverts taking up the lower third of the screen?
[23:43:34] <chromas> Up next, Slowly Rotating Black Man
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