#Soylent | Logs for 2014-05-03

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[00:01:00] <paulej72> michealpwalls: We could add them, but then there would be a lot of tool tips comming up as you ckick on things. We thought it might be a bit GUI overload
[00:01:13] <michealpwalls> maybe you're right
[00:01:27] <michealpwalls> Unless you can make them load after 1-2 seconds of hover
[00:01:38] <michealpwalls> so they don't immediately load, I mean. Meh I'm over thinking it :P
[00:02:41] <paulej72> We can put an explanation in the FAQ or some such. It should only take a few clicks to figure out what they all do anyway :)
[00:03:03] <michealpwalls> Whoa, this is really a good implementation th way it is.. IMHO I would not change it. With NoScript running, it silently turns into the regular threaded veiw...
[00:03:06] <michealpwalls> There's absolutely zero breakage :O
[00:03:23] <michealpwalls> That's pretty badass man!
[00:04:25] <michealpwalls> This should be the default. I'm sold! :)
[00:05:04] <Blackmoore> hmm. odd. i just went back after commenting, and now everything is expanded.
[00:05:17] <paulej72> have you tried commenting? I was purging out old ./ D2 comments code from the whole Comments.pm file
[00:05:21] <Blackmoore> of course I'm not loged in so it could be that
[00:05:48] <Blackmoore> anyway I must go - have a good weekend.
[00:06:23] -!- Blackmoore has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[00:06:31] <paulej72> Blackmoore: AC has threaded as the default. we would probably change the default to Improved Threaded once we were sure it is workign well.
[00:06:32] <michealpwalls> Hrmm, it doesn't seem to work at all on IE.. Although like Firefox with NoScript it is no different from the default Threaded veiw when Improved Threaded isn't working :/
[00:06:55] <michealpwalls> So, iunno. Unless Blackmoore found a bug after commenting, I say this is really good and would be a great Default veiw :P
[00:07:26] <paulej72> michealpwalls: what version of IE
[00:07:40] <michealpwalls> 11
[00:07:52] <michealpwalls> I'll do more testing, my IEs are fucked (from testing haha!)
[00:08:06] -!- weeds has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[00:14:42] MrBluze|zzz is now known as MrBluze
[00:15:27] <NCommander> paulej72, the D2 stuff like a freaking cancer on the codebase, I honestly don't get what went into its design
[00:16:39] <MrBluze> we should remove all javascript
[00:16:42] <MrBluze> fix the css
[00:16:47] <MrBluze> and start all that stuff again
[00:17:20] <NCommander> MrBluze, we *did* remove all the JS
[00:17:31] <NCommander> How do you think we hocked 3/5ths of a page load size :-)
[00:18:05] <MrBluze> ok
[00:18:22] <MrBluze> which js are we using now
[00:18:33] <NCommander> MrBluze, we've got jquery, but it only loads for admins, and not regular users
[00:18:42] <NCommander> (admincp requires it, you get interesting breakage without it)
[00:18:50] <NCommander> MrBluze, beside that, just the JS for collaspable comments
[00:18:51] <MrBluze> yeah
[00:19:00] <MrBluze> ok then get a library and use it
[00:20:05] <michealpwalls> I honestly think it's pretty damn good the way it is on that dev site paulej72 linked..
[00:20:46] <michealpwalls> Iunno you would want to throw that JS away, it fails perfectly. People there with Improved Threading on and the js failing see exactly what you see in Threading mode. They wouldn't even know anything went wrong :/
[00:20:52] <chromas> Although the icons could use an update ;-)
[00:21:08] <michealpwalls> s/Iunno you/Iunno why/
[00:21:08] <SedBot> <michealpwalls> Iunno why would want to throw that JS away, it fails perfectly. People there with Improved Threading on and the js failing see exactly what you see in Threading mode. They wouldn't even know anything went wrong :/
[00:21:14] <michealpwalls> (hifive) SedBot
[00:21:19] <paulej72> chromas: the icons are 64 bit encode gifs
[00:21:48] <chromas> Yeah; I think it would look better white on transparent
[00:21:52] <chromas> To match the font
[00:22:28] <chromas> Doesn't fit with the collapsed ones though
[00:22:32] * NCommander maintains he is not a web designer
[00:22:56] <paulej72> chromas: then they would have a smaller taget area. I think transparent parts a ignored for mouse clicks,but I am not sure
[00:23:09] <chromas> :(
[00:23:31] <NCommander> I think functional > looks in this case
[00:23:35] <NCommander> It *can't* be worse than D2
[00:23:42] <paulej72> I still need to add some padding to the collaspe comments so the buttons line up.
[00:23:46] <NCommander> Which was so poorly implemented, it was truly mind boggling
[00:23:57] <NCommander> paulej72, BTW, I can clean up and fix the AJAX API for you
[00:24:05] <NCommander> 99% of that code is for firehouse, but its easy to fix
[00:24:39] <NCommander> so we have an easy way to get inline reply box + comments temptselves
[00:24:58] <paulej72> Does anyone think that the the collapsed comments should have a background similar to the uncollasped comment titles?
[00:25:35] <paulej72> NCommander: that may be needed in the future
[00:26:31] <NCommander> paulej72, that sounds ugly
[00:26:47] <michealpwalls> paulej72: On those <img> tags you can add a title attribute. That will let the browser do the tooltip work for you.
[00:27:06] <michealpwalls> paulej72: Ew iunno if I like the sounds of that. It's nice how they are when collapsed, it would be a wall of red I think
[00:27:44] <paulej72> michealpwalls: yes I know I can add the title attribute, but I am afraid of too may tool tips poping up.
[00:28:03] <michealpwalls> hehe
[00:31:09] <chromas> Try this gif: R0lGODlhDgAOAIAAAP///////yH5BAEKAAEALAAAAAAOAA4AAAIdhI8Zy73mYoCy0foAZjSdnHngNmnkhaGVKnmuUQAAOw==
[00:31:20] <chromas> for the [-]
[00:41:55] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Serious Security Flaw in OAuth, OpenID Discovered - http://sylnt.us - Another-one-bites-the-dust
[00:47:32] <paulej72> chromas: your minus is up
[00:49:30] <paulej72> IE now works. I added an xpath lib to the js code. It fixes the missing commands for IE
[00:51:27] <paulej72> chromas: think you could bang out a + for me to test
[00:54:16] <michealpwalls> What does the button with the dot in it do, exactly?
[00:54:23] <michealpwalls> The last button on the right hehe
[00:54:35] <paulej72> michealpwalls: hides the whole thread
[00:55:24] <NCommander> paulej72, "joy", more JS :-(
[00:55:31] <arti> JS is awesome!
[00:55:39] <arti> the trick is to use copious amounts
[00:55:51] <michealpwalls> LOL
[00:56:09] <arti> GLORY TO THE CLIENT SIDE RENDERERS
[00:56:21] <paulej72> new lib is 27,410 bytes.
[00:56:35] <arti> is it quality hand crafted sex0r?
[00:58:10] <paulej72> If i set everything up on the server side, I could use less JS and some CSS to make it all work. But it would require much more work on the code to make it happen. This method leverages code we already have to mke it work.
[00:58:14] -!- neagix has quit [Quit: New Now Know How]
[00:58:35] -!- neagix [neagix!~neagix@31.220.yp.otq] has joined #Soylent
[00:58:49] <paulej72> arti: the lib is from google https://code.google.com
[00:59:33] <paulej72> It may have screte code inside that will steal you babies and punch you mom in the stomach :P
[00:59:44] <arti> i would expect as much from corporate america
[00:59:57] <arti> sounds like a job for a shim library
[00:59:59] <arti> unevil.js
[01:00:09] <paulej72> my tyoeing is ery bad today
[01:00:18] * arti recommends lint
[01:01:09] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Tech Companies Push Back on Police Data Requests - http://sylnt.us - it's-actually-good-news
[01:19:41] <chromas> paulej72: yeah but I just left home for a bit to it'll be a while :(
[01:23:55] <michealpwalls> SSO is crazyhorse
[01:24:29] <michealpwalls> convenience is in opposition to security :/
[01:25:41] <xlefay> We have SSO at SN too ;-)
[01:26:04] <michealpwalls> Putting two stories together here... The story about Google testing out an idea to "remove URLs" and this article about OpenID and OAuth having serious covert redirect vulnerabilities... Interesting!
[01:26:10] <xlefay> Convenience & Security, just don't bring in the facts. Especially not, the rubber hose facts.
[01:26:20] <michealpwalls> LOL xlefay
[01:26:31] <michealpwalls> You can't forget about the rubber hose attack, man.. It's serious business.
[01:26:39] <xlefay> !quote rubber
[01:26:39] <deadpeas> Quote 98 - <TK> When using the rubber hose technique, best practices indicate to avoid the head and fingers for optimal results.
[01:26:49] <michealpwalls> LMAO
[01:28:16] <xlefay> How's you michealpwalls? :)
[01:28:32] <michealpwalls> Good!
[01:28:42] <michealpwalls> I go back to class' on Tuesday
[01:28:53] <michealpwalls> No more dressing up and etc.
[01:29:16] <xlefay> 'dressing up', please elaborate.
[01:29:44] <michealpwalls> nice clothes hehe
[01:30:23] <xlefay> Oh, that's somewhat dissapointing and here I was hoping, we'd hear all sorts of kinky, minecrafty-like stories. Oh well.
[01:30:29] <michealpwalls> Like dress pants, shirt etc. I didn't wear a tie to work (Wore one to the interview hehe)
[01:30:37] <michealpwalls> haha
[01:30:53] <xlefay> Haha, so no more working for weird people?
[01:31:19] <michealpwalls> haha I'm sure I'll work for weird people in the future! :)
[01:31:50] <xlefay> You're a realist too, oh my.
[01:32:01] <michealpwalls> This job was good though, to be honest hehe
[01:32:06] <xlefay> That's good tho :)
[01:32:08] <michealpwalls> Probs. best job I've had! :X
[01:32:11] <xlefay> Had some interesting projects?
[01:32:35] <michealpwalls> Yea, I made a screen-scraper that nobody but me seen/used. That was cool!
[01:32:41] <michealpwalls> Java makes everything so fast and easy (rofl)
[01:33:36] <michealpwalls> It doesn't use xpath, so it's basically useless except for the specific task I made it for.. Interesting though! First time doing something like that for me :)
[01:34:11] <xlefay> That's still pretty cool eh ;)
[01:34:17] <michealpwalls> Oh! Also more "real world" experience building a project where people that know nothing about technology were directing me.
[01:34:21] <michealpwalls> *that* was an experience :/
[01:35:13] <xlefay> Welcome to the real world. Where people tell you to build airplanes and balloons out of thin air!
[01:35:22] <xlefay> Oh wait, well.. it's close enough
[01:35:24] <michealpwalls> It's a whole lot different than building personal projects, that's for sure. You don't have much/any creative freedom since you're under such crazy time deadlines and starting from existing code you don't have time to re-write
[01:35:38] <michealpwalls> LOL that's pretty much it sometimes though :D
[01:35:41] <paulej72> xlefay: check you back scroll. I have impoved threading working on dev. It will need some qa testing
[01:35:57] <xlefay> paulej72: cool. How's you?
[01:35:58] <michealpwalls> I am in love with the new threading ^
[01:36:08] <paulej72> working out the gui issues now
[01:36:11] <michealpwalls> All nay-sayers should be burned at the stake.
[01:36:19] <michealpwalls> Pfft, there is no gui issues. Refer to above ^
[01:36:33] <paulej72> xlefay: I am well , but hungry. I need to get some food now. be back later
[01:36:46] <xlefay> michealpwalls: that's life in most organizations. You get told what to do, when to do it, and no-way you can be late.
[01:37:06] <paulej72> michealpwalls: playing with the transparency of the buttons and such
[01:37:18] <michealpwalls> Ah
[01:37:19] <xlefay> Seriously though, sometimes, you get an impossible deadline and you try to tell your "manager" and ... nothing :)
[01:37:32] <michealpwalls> Yea
[01:37:36] <xlefay> michealpwalls: be glad you're going back to class :-P
[01:37:40] <xlefay> paulej72: cool
[01:37:45] <michealpwalls> Or beta testing is long over and you're still getting new feature requests :)
[01:38:11] <michealpwalls> I wish I could be like "Sorry, feature freeze is in effect"
[01:38:38] <xlefay> haha
[01:40:08] <michealpwalls> In the end it was all worth it though :)
[01:40:44] <xlefay> Things always are, at some point :)
[01:40:46] <michealpwalls> Letter of recommendation woot
[01:40:49] <michealpwalls> haha touche
[01:41:03] <xlefay> That's good. I've got a few sitting here, but they aren't helping me at all.
[01:41:16] <michealpwalls> :(\
[01:41:22] <michealpwalls> why?
[01:41:26] <xlefay> Hopefully, yours will help you out at some point hehe
[01:42:29] <xlefay> I don't have a clue, the references check out though, but meh. I'll find a job soon enough, I hope.
[01:42:44] <xlefay> Anyway, what's you up to @ school?
[01:42:50] <michealpwalls> This german beer is fantastic!
[01:43:06] <michealpwalls> Ohhhh I'm excited, a Mainframe Programming class with COBOL comming up this semester!
[01:43:12] <xlefay> .. you should taste dutch beer.
[01:43:14] <michealpwalls> Going to be badass
[01:43:20] <michealpwalls> I think I got some dutch beer from Holand, too!
[01:43:31] <michealpwalls> Havent' opened it yet, though hehe. After this German one...
[01:43:49] <xlefay> Holland... :P
[01:43:56] <michealpwalls> sorry LOl
[01:44:03] <michealpwalls> I don't get out much, you see :P
[01:44:15] <michealpwalls> In fact, I haven't been outside of Ontario!
[01:44:19] <xlefay> No worries, although, one little tip, don't drink it after the German one. Keep it for another night, when you haven't had any beer yet. You'll
[01:44:47] <michealpwalls> Ah, to get the full experience? Sounds like sage advice! :)
[01:44:48] <xlefay> You'll be amazed at the taste and all (Surely, you don't want to contaminate the real taste by previous other beers?)
[01:45:08] <xlefay> I actually don't drink much alcohol, or well, actually I didn't drink any normally, until recently lol
[01:45:14] <xlefay> _BUT_ it's dutch.. so it has to be good!
[01:45:24] <michealpwalls> I don't either
[01:45:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> bleh, i have mod points but it's almost scotch-thirty.
[01:45:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> modding and drinking do not mix well.
[01:46:06] <xlefay> Do what I do, randomly mod people up.
[01:46:21] <xlefay> I must say though, I haven't had mod points in weeks
[01:46:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> weird. i get them like every third day.
[01:46:49] <xlefay> aah.. I disabled that it seems
[01:47:04] <xlefay> Oh.. I mistook the "Willing to vote" box for the mod box... *sigh*
[01:47:06] <cykros> wait, what's with the live free or die and new hampshire license plate on soylent today?
[01:47:15] <cykros> i assume it's there for a reason
[01:47:17] <michealpwalls> LOL
[01:47:21] <michealpwalls> I agree, wth guys?
[01:47:23] <xlefay> cykros: did your cache only just refresh?
[01:47:39] <cykros> xlefay: my optic nerve's cache did anyway
[01:47:45] <xlefay> It's been on there for a while, although, it was supposed to be removed after one day
[01:47:59] <xlefay> (although, you won't hear me complain, it's a drastic improvement over the previous logo)
[01:48:18] <michealpwalls> Pfft, no way. I liked the old one. Plus the tagline was great!
[01:48:25] <michealpwalls> Soylent News is People!
[01:48:26] <michealpwalls> :O
[01:48:44] <xlefay> cykros: I'm trying to find that post re: the number plate.. but, of course, the title had to be something besides the obvious
[01:48:53] <xlefay> ugh anyone remember anything in the title for the searchage?
[01:49:09] <xlefay> aah got it!
[01:49:13] -!- SirFinkus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
[01:49:15] <xlefay> cykros: https://soylentnews.org
[01:49:31] <xlefay> michealpwalls: Live Free Soylent News or Die!
[01:49:37] <xlefay> Here.. let's compromise?
[01:49:38] <cykros> i definitely prefered the old one with tag line over the current one. if for no other reason than "live free or die" and "new hampshire" just kind of irks me to see in conjunction. the state's only really good at one thing, and that's providing tax free shopping to MA residents, and being a relatively close by place where legal purchase of a firearm is doable
[01:49:48] <cykros> though VT fits the bill for the latter just fine
[01:50:05] <cykros> especially given how many people i know who got put on probation for underage POSESSION of tobacco in NH
[01:50:16] <cykros> live free...but make sure you do it how we tell you.
[01:50:21] <xlefay> That's illegal? Wow.
[01:50:26] <michealpwalls> I know nothing about the state. "Live Free or Die" sounded like something a radical Ron Paul site would have as a slogan :/
[01:50:27] <michealpwalls> LMAO
[01:50:29] <michealpwalls> Just saying...
[01:50:52] <cykros> yea. as a joke it's all well and good, i was just asking to be filled in on the joke
[01:50:55] <xlefay> I wouldn't mind having the Wiki's logo on SN though instead of the previous logo, it was much nicer.
[01:51:01] <cykros> didn't really figure it was being seriously considered for anything beyond that though
[01:51:11] <cykros> the previous logo i'm not in love with
[01:51:13] <cykros> the tagline i like
[01:51:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> well, that's fair. our founders WERE radicals. traitors and terrorists even.
[01:51:23] <xlefay> cykros: it's not a joke perse, did you read the incorporation plan post?
[01:51:30] <cykros> no
[01:51:41] <xlefay> That's why that "logo" came up, it was supposed to be gone after a day or so, but apparently, nobody cared to remove it
[01:51:47] <cykros> seem to have missed it in my rss box
[01:51:50] <michealpwalls> I can't touch that, TheMightyBuzzard :/
[01:51:59] <xlefay> https://soylentnews.org | tl;dr the plan is to incorporate in new hampshire, thus the license plate
[01:52:10] <cykros> new hampshire? incorporate?
[01:52:20] <cykros> they don't tax ANYONE...except corporations. through the nose.
[01:52:28] <xlefay> NFP's too?
[01:52:32] <cykros> probably not
[01:52:37] <cykros> and it's probably much saner than it sounds to me
[01:53:06] <xlefay> Then I think we're good, although, it's NCommander's department, if you can find him trawling around here - direct your questions there, if any ;)
[01:53:08] <cykros> i'll find the post now and educate myself a bit in any case
[01:53:14] <xlefay> He pretty much wrote an essay
[01:53:16] <MrBluze> romania is probably more free
[01:53:19] <xlefay> (the post is: https://soylentnews.org )
[01:53:53] <xlefay> MrBluze: screw romania, Netherlands ftw.
[01:53:58] <xlefay> Oh wait, I'm biased.
[01:54:07] * xlefay retracts that statement
[01:54:09] <MrBluze> lol
[01:54:14] <MrBluze> netherlands has been quite good
[01:54:16] <cykros> frankly, for anything that falls into the scope of soylent news, i actually fully expect new hampshire's laws to be favorable
[01:54:22] <xlefay> How's you by the way MrBluze I haven't even asked you that ;)
[01:54:22] <cykros> i just wouldn't want to live under them as a human.
[01:54:31] <MrBluze> im good
[01:54:53] <NCommander> cykros, NH taxes corporations pretty heavily, but it also provides *very* strong freedom of speech
[01:54:53] <MrBluze> just shopping for a hosting provider
[01:54:59] <michealpwalls> I want to move to Netherlands. Maybe Norway...
[01:55:25] <cykros> NCommander: yea, i expect it probably is one of the best places in the US to be a speech oriented organization
[01:55:28] <xlefay> michealpwalls: Norway is only preferable if you want a country with a small name.. don't compromise there buddy
[01:55:35] <cykros> and idk what incorporating in iceland would entail.,
[01:55:40] <xlefay> Just come over to the dar^H^H^Hgood side
[01:55:42] <NCommander> cykros, if we go for 501(c)(3), we'd be exempted from state tax as well (RSA 262:3 I think?)
[01:55:44] <michealpwalls> haha xlefay
[01:56:01] <xlefay> MrBluze: hehe, there are a ton, best to just get yourself a cheap VPS tho
[01:56:04] <NCommander> cykros, but I'm starting to debate if that's a wise move because we have to give up specific rights to get that status
[01:56:16] <MrBluze> yes
[01:56:20] <cykros> hmm, that's definitely worth looking into
[01:56:33] * cykros only just noticed this being a thing ongoing and is a bit out of the loop
[01:56:33] <NCommander> cykros, I'm going to write about it in a different essay
[01:56:41] <NCommander> cykros, I'm currently working on the SN manifesto
[01:57:15] <michealpwalls> Make sure it's apolitical? Is that a word? It should be.
[01:57:18] <NCommander> cykros, here's an idea of what it will contain: One of the pressing questions that have been asked time and time again is "What We Will Be?"<br>
[01:57:18] <NCommander> <br>
[01:57:18] <NCommander> Here's my answer to that. "We will be the best site for independent, not-for-profit journalism on the internet, where ideas and free discussion can take place without corporate needs overshadowing the community".
[01:57:48] <xlefay> michealpwalls: NL's great by the way.
[01:58:22] <michealpwalls> NCommander, What if you replace "corporate" with "external"
[01:58:32] <michealpwalls> ?
[01:58:34] <NCommander> michealpwalls, done
[01:58:44] <michealpwalls> thanks! :)
[01:58:50] <xlefay> BUT BUT ALL THE COOKIES
[01:58:52] <michealpwalls> I like it!
[01:58:54] <xlefay> Oh.. wrong window. Dammit.
[01:59:01] <michealpwalls> hah
[01:59:31] <xlefay> I was actually quoting someone, just fyi
[02:00:02] <michealpwalls> I agree though... What about all the cookies?
[02:00:03] <michealpwalls> :)
[02:00:18] <xlefay> Indeed.
[02:00:44] <xlefay> Wait, we're not marking cookies as external, right?
[02:00:50] <michealpwalls> Speaking of cookies.. After reading that bug report about the cookies through corporate proxies, I tried to look at the cookie logic in slashcode but gave up after awhile :(
[02:01:18] <xlefay> eh, michealpwalls my mantra regarding slash code is: "Don't ask, don't look. Just stay the hell away from it."
[02:01:33] <michealpwalls> haha
[02:01:41] * NCommander injects raw perl in xlefay's mind
[02:01:45] <xlefay> (That is, if you have any desire to keep your mental health intact)
[02:01:52] <xlefay> NCommander: it's not the perl that's awful
[02:02:21] <michealpwalls> There's so many folders and I'm not really sure where the entry point is to be honest :/
[02:02:21] <xlefay> It's the "what in the actual fuck?" moments, when you read a comment only to figure out it's totally bullshit
[02:02:24] <xlefay> amongst others
[02:02:56] <arti> > You are in a codebase filled with directories all alike.
[02:03:03] <michealpwalls> LOL
[02:03:18] <xlefay> "Slashcode, the coders' maze"
[02:03:27] <michealpwalls> haha it's like an xkcd game
[02:03:33] <NCommander> michealpwalls, its in the Apache hack code in Slash/Apache/*
[02:03:34] <NCommander> Slash actually attaches to Apache directly and into the process itself with hooks
[02:03:42] <arti> more like daggers
[02:03:46] <arti> that's so crazy
[02:03:47] <xlefay> No michealpwalls, because that would have been funny
[02:03:48] <michealpwalls> Oh wow :O
[02:04:09] * arti imagines a borg being created
[02:04:20] <xlefay> Slashcode isn't. Didn't we receive an apology from an original Slashcode developer?
[02:04:31] -!- SirFinkus [SirFinkus!~SirFinkus@l-64-313-06-125.hsd0.wa.comcast.net] has joined #Soylent
[02:04:43] <NCommander> xlefay, you live in a country with good healthcare. Risk a mental leasion or two, you'd be covered!
[02:04:55] <michealpwalls> So wait a minute --forgive me if this is silly-- but wouldn't that mean if slashcode was compromised the entire apache process gets compromised? :/
[02:05:01] <NCommander> michealpwalls, yup
[02:05:02] <NCommander> :-)
[02:05:10] <xlefay> NCommander: actually, I'm a few months behind. I'm not that well covered as it stands.
[02:05:10] <NCommander> michealpwalls, (works in reverse too)
[02:05:25] <michealpwalls> How do you guys cope with that? Run it in a VM I guess? :/
[02:05:28] <NCommander> michealpwalls, we have it in an apparmor straightjacket
[02:05:34] <michealpwalls> haha nice
[02:05:39] <NCommander> Which is why I'm not HUGELY concerned with us being on Apache 1.3
[02:05:49] <xlefay> I'm really fond of apparmor, it works exactly how it should
[02:05:57] <xlefay> NCommander: but, we did receive an apology for slashcode right?
[02:06:09] <NCommander> xlefay, CowboyNeal basically said something to that effect when he got emailed about us
[02:06:22] <xlefay> aah yes, that's it
[02:06:33] <michealpwalls> It begs the question though.. We should do some penetration tests in some controlled way, no? What if we can still do damage in that straightjacket somehow? :/
[02:07:04] <xlefay> michealpwalls: a controlled way? Man, I had expected you would've opened your repository of tools already!
[02:07:15] <xlefay> Oh wait, that's someone else..
[02:07:15] <michealpwalls> haha no way
[02:07:58] <xlefay> if ($me->drinking('beer')) { $me->memory = 'fuzzy'; }
[02:08:05] <xlefay> God, surprised that statement even looks solid
[02:08:14] <arti> it checks out
[02:08:17] <michealpwalls> I like it
[02:08:40] <xlefay> I would love to see some penetration testing on dev though
[02:08:47] <xlefay> See how far people could go
[02:08:48] <michealpwalls> I like your use of braces for a single-line if statement, too. It pleases my OCD :)
[02:09:19] <xlefay> I generally don't use them for a single line tho, just a return *generally*
[02:09:25] <xlefay> but in IRC, it just seemed like the mental thing to do
[02:09:30] <michealpwalls> hah
[02:09:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> sigh, silly, silly mod bombers.
[02:10:00] <NCommander> michealpwalls, well, I'm not hugely worried about the machine itself
[02:10:00] <NCommander> Apache is apparmored, and on top of that, the entire stack is isolated from the rest of the system and running non-root
[02:10:00] <NCommander> (a serious magictrick with slash)
[02:10:00] <NCommander> michealpwalls, the biggest concern is database corruption due to SQL injection
[02:10:00] <NCommander> But that entire set of code needs refactoring and relocation into postgres
[02:10:31] <xlefay> NCommander: 'due to SQL injection' -- I thought the ongoing concern was MySQL in itself!
[02:10:46] <michealpwalls> what character set is the database?
[02:10:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> got happy salted n good hashed pws then?
[02:11:10] <michealpwalls> I changed my pass ^
[02:11:15] <michealpwalls> It's super silly for sn hehe
[02:11:16] <xlefay> LOL
[02:11:32] <michealpwalls> LOL I know, I'm paranoid :/
[02:11:36] * xlefay tries to log in with michealpwalls's username & password 'super silly for sn hehe'
[02:11:41] <xlefay> dammit. I knew that was too easy.
[02:11:51] <michealpwalls> haha
[02:12:01] <michealpwalls> log-in and post comments under my name. *gasp*
[02:12:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> honestly, i'd worry more about someone altering something and using it to serve up malware.
[02:12:02] <michealpwalls> the horror!
[02:12:15] <xlefay> TheMightyBuzzard: oh, don't worry about that
[02:12:34] <xlefay> SN's pretty much a brain fuck, anyone wanting to serve up malware via it, must have an insane stomach
[02:12:42] <michealpwalls> ^
[02:12:49] <michealpwalls> I couldn't even find the god damned entry point :(
[02:13:33] <xlefay> michealpwalls: .. I wish I could have said "That's what she said?" but.. unfortunately, that would be extremely weird
[02:13:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> don't need to. just need to find any html stored in a place you can get write permission to.
[02:14:15] <xlefay> TheMightyBuzzard: and then either wait for slash to restart on it's own or for someone else to restart/reload it
[02:14:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep
[02:14:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> no rush though
[02:14:52] <michealpwalls> Basically find an input form and try to give it some SQL. First try to end out of the quote ' and then try something?
[02:15:13] <xlefay> I honestly don't think it's that easy.
[02:15:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> i mean if i were doing it for the mad skillz cred that would be an issue but for money, any money is good money, doesn't matter when.
[02:15:35] <xlefay> Slashdot has ran Slashcode for years, and I don't think they had any serious SQL injections
[02:16:30] <michealpwalls> True. If slashdot escapes the ' character it's mostly fine. But depending on the character set slashcode uses, someone could try to give it a multi-byte character to mess with the escaping logic?
[02:16:41] <xlefay> You'd have a much easier time trying to take down our database servers (though, you first gotta find them, then you need to throw *a lot* of data at it - not easy)
[02:16:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, if do sanitization right, no can defend
[02:16:59] <xlefay> michealpwalls: I'd say, go for it on dev
[02:17:37] <michealpwalls> I'm not an expert, but that's about what I gather. For example some character sets take 2 bytes (&' for example) and when it escapes the ' it becomes &\' and sent to the db, which interprets &\ as a multi-byte character and then meets a '
[02:18:06] <michealpwalls> So the escape actually causes the sql injection, in a way. I think if it's a single byte character encoding on the db tables that can't work ^
[02:18:14] <michealpwalls> Like latin1, the default for MySQL is single byte
[02:18:19] <xlefay> ONLY open if you HAVE brain bleech standing by: https://github.com
[02:18:38] <xlefay> use Encode 'encode_utf8';
[02:18:39] <michealpwalls> *grabs the bleech and opens*
[02:18:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> would but i got a pizza to pick up and then drinking to do.
[02:18:53] <michealpwalls> Ah utf8 (8 bits is 1 byte) is a single byte encoding
[02:18:54] <xlefay> So I'm *guessing* it's utf8 .. but Slash isn't always honest so best to confirm that first
[02:19:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> perl don't skeer me.
[02:19:15] <michealpwalls> So that is *not* vulnerable to multi-byte SQL injection.. At least to my understanding? LMAO I'm not expert though :P
[02:19:26] <xlefay> michealpwalls: it's MySQL, 'nuff said
[02:19:37] <michealpwalls> MySQL hates me
[02:19:41] <xlefay> it throws "nulls" into "NOT NULL" fields and all that.. so
[02:19:52] <michealpwalls> DB2 is such an awesome system. Programming that was a dream
[02:19:54] <xlefay> TheMightyBuzzard: enjoy!
[02:20:01] <michealpwalls> I get this "simple" job with MySQL and jesus. It's like I dunno SQL at all :(
[02:20:25] <xlefay> michealpwalls: one thing I will say for MySQL though, if you need to do something non-standard, it's definitely the DB you want!
[02:20:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> thanks. don't see how i could fail to with pizza n booze.
[02:20:37] <xlefay> TheMightyBuzzard: you can't, thus, enjoy!
[02:21:06] * xlefay is staring at his lovely psql 9.3.4 prompt
[02:22:01] <xlefay> Though.. to be fair, I hear MySQL is doing much better nowadays
[02:22:26] <xlefay> So maybe, in the near future, it'll be worth using
[02:24:08] <xlefay> NCommander: I'm curious how Slashcode would look, if it was written by the same people, this year ;-)
[02:24:39] <xlefay> I'm thinking "near-sane", anyone have any thoughts?
[02:26:35] <stderr> I hope not.
[02:27:50] <xlefay> stderr: haha, how's you & how's the new office by the way?
[02:31:17] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Source Code for World's First MUD Recovered - http://sylnt.us - found-in-a-misty-graveyard
[02:31:23] <stderr> I'm fine. Had two weeks vacation during Easter... Sunday I woke up with a foot that was killing me. It was also killing me Monday, so I stayed home from work. Tuesday someone was leaving after 45 years, so I went to the reception. My foot was still killing me. Wednesday I had an appointment with my doctor... And that day there wasn't any problems with my foot. :-/ It then started a bit again yesterday, when the uni. was closed because of May 1st. An
[02:31:23] <stderr> d now my foot seems to be ok again...
[02:31:47] <stderr> And I'll most likely have to move office soon... :-/
[02:32:33] <xlefay> Auch that sucks, the doc couldn't find anything regarding your foot?
[02:32:39] <xlefay> And moving your office, again? :(
[02:33:40] <stderr> No, most of the pain had gone away Wednesday... "Does it hurt when I press like this?" "Nope, not more than it would if you had pressed like that on the other foot."
[02:33:55] <stderr> Nothing to see... Come again, if it starts again.
[02:34:35] <stderr> If that happens, they might do an ultrasound.
[02:35:09] <xlefay> I see, I hope it all turns out well
[02:35:45] <stderr> I don't have any problems with my foot now. Not unless I provoke it.
[02:35:56] <xlefay> That's good :)
[02:36:07] <xlefay> Oh my, it's saturday already
[02:36:36] <stderr> Yes... And still no news about the voting, it seems. :-/
[02:37:55] <stderr> Would it be possible to at least send an email back telling us if our votes has been received and whether they can be parsed or not by the voting program?
[02:38:34] <xlefay> Oh, I actually inquired about that just now. NCommander has suspended the matter till the staff meeting which mrcoolbp|afk is trying to plan for may 10, I'm not sure why he wanted to suspend it though, but I suspect he can reply on the message as to the reasons ;)
[02:39:07] <stderr> For fuck sake!!!
[02:39:30] <xlefay> I do believe audioguy posted some stats regarding the votes, here:
[02:39:38] <xlefay> Registered Voters: 507 + 18 = 525
[02:39:38] <xlefay> Participated in the name submissions: 47 + 0 = 47
[02:39:38] <xlefay> Emails that had to be hand decoded: 0 (progam could not decipher)
[02:39:38] <xlefay> Voted in the Scoring round: 241 + 10 = 251
[02:39:39] <xlefay> Emails that had to be hand decoded: 1 (non-standard quoted-printable encoding)
[02:39:40] <xlefay> Emails that had to be hand counted (people added later): 10
[02:39:43] <xlefay> People voting more than once:
[02:39:45] <xlefay> Second vote unchanged at all : 2
[02:39:48] <xlefay> (no change to vote, probably forgot they had voted)
[02:39:50] <xlefay> Order alone : 5
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[02:39:53] <xlefay> (Order change suggests they misunderstood directions)
[02:39:55] <xlefay> Order plus other changes : 3
[02:39:58] <xlefay> (indeterminate due to changes in what was voted for)
[02:40:00] <xlefay> --
[02:40:03] <xlefay> Total: 10
[02:40:05] <xlefay> Voted in the Runoff round: (upcoming)
[02:40:33] <xlefay> So, it's safe to assume, everyone that voted, their vote was properly received
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[02:42:08] <michealpwalls> Ah, okay (whew!)
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[02:42:23] <stderr> I don't think that's safe to assume at all. How can we know if my vote is among those 251?
[02:42:39] -!- aqu4 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[02:42:49] <xlefay> stderr: I honestly don't have a clue. Best to ask audioguy to confirm that then.
[02:42:53] <michealpwalls> So all roads seem to lead to dbix's quote() function.. Whatever that does? I assume that's probs. like PHP's addslashes() ?
[02:43:00] <michealpwalls> *uses the bleech*
[02:43:16] <stderr> michealpwalls: Bleech might not be enough...
[02:43:19] <xlefay> ^^^^
[02:43:54] <michealpwalls> 'cause sqlInsert() defined in utility.pm refers to sqlQuote() (also in Utility.pm) which calls _dbh->quote(), which _dbh if I remember is the DBIx object? Can't remember now
[02:43:56] <michealpwalls> The bleech and all
[02:43:57] <xlefay> If your eyes started burning somewhere in the process, you might just want to take them out altogether, the pain will never stop!
[02:44:26] <xlefay> Of course, that in itself, should only be done as a last resort.
[02:44:38] <michealpwalls> haha
[02:44:57] <xlefay> stderr: I'm pretty blind regarding that subject, I can only relay what I'm reading so
[02:46:19] <stderr> Do you know if a (pseudo-)anonymous list of our votes will be posted, so we can check if our vote was parsed correctly?
[02:47:05] <xlefay> I can't say for sure, but it's not in anything I've read, so I would assume not.
[02:47:24] <xlefay> Then again, the part where you didn't get a confirmation e-mail kinda screams that out
[02:48:11] <stderr> Actually that could explain why some people voted the exact same way twice.
[02:48:37] <xlefay> I think so as well
[02:49:09] <stderr> But anyway, it seems we have absolutely no way of checking if the result of the voting is correct or not... Sounds great!!! :-(
[02:49:12] <xlefay> I *hope* everything will fall on it's feet properly
[02:49:46] <xlefay> stderr: like I said, I can't say that for certain. The person you really want to ask is audioguy, he's running that show.
[02:50:10] <stderr> I kind of doubt that will happen... Everyone has a good reason to complain about the voting, if their choice doesn't win.
[02:51:55] <xlefay> Well, from what I understand, the voting is based on points, I'm somewhat concerned about those who voted in the wrong order, some re-voted but not many. I just hope, we don't have a run-off with a few options left in the drain because of the reverse order. :/
[02:51:59] <stderr> He never answered the memos I left for him on MemoServ last time I had questions about the voting, so I'm not going to do that again.
[02:52:42] <xlefay> That's odd. I asked him if he had checked that, did he see them though?
[02:52:54] <stderr> He has.
[02:53:09] <xlefay> I believe he answered your questions on the site, but I assumed he had linked you to that.
[02:53:57] <xlefay> I guess I was mistaken on that one :/ what was your question? Maybe I can dig it up.
[02:54:02] <xlefay> or, questions.
[02:54:12] <stderr> I think he did answer some of my questions on the site, but I'm not sure if all of them were answered. I know I didn't get a memo or a link from him.
[02:54:34] <xlefay> :?
[02:54:35] <xlefay> :/*
[02:54:50] <stderr> One were about 90 vs. 91 suggestions for the name.
[02:55:14] <xlefay> Oh, I believe he did answer that one. Something about a crude script, that was incidentially off by one
[02:55:25] <stderr> One was about baconnews being listed as .com, which isn't available.
[02:55:43] <xlefay> Hmm, MrBluze registered some baconnews, not sure if he got the .com though.
[02:55:54] <stderr> And the last one was "can we get a new voting sheet with the correct options?".
[02:55:55] <xlefay> Yes, he registered the .com
[02:56:07] <stderr> Years ago?
[02:56:12] <xlefay> baconnews.com?
[02:56:23] <xlefay> ugh.. nvm, I accidentally put in .org
[02:56:27] <stderr> Creation Date: 28-nov-2009
[02:56:38] <xlefay> Sorry about that, no, he doesn't own the .com unfortunately
[02:56:56] <xlefay> As for the last question, I'm guessing, you didn't get that?
[02:57:20] <stderr> No, I don't think any of us got a new voting sheet.
[02:57:22] <xlefay> http://baconnews.com lol, seriously
[02:58:17] <stderr> That guy looks WAY too happy...
[02:59:05] <stderr> And the site doesn't even say "bacon" once on the frontpage. WTF?!
[02:59:18] <xlefay> I'm sorry to hear that. I know audioguy's tried pretty hard keeping everyone on the site informed, I'm sorry he didn't give you the links as a courtesy though, I suspect that might have fallen through the cracks
[02:59:56] <xlefay> Yeah, I just searched for that too. That's silly.
[03:00:49] <xlefay> http://www.ereleases.com damn!
[03:01:03] <xlefay> <sarcasm>That sounds like SN material right there!</sarcasm>
[03:05:01] <michealpwalls> So... Am I wrong to believe the DBIx class does not have it's own quote() method and instead inherits the quote() method from the DBI class? :/
[03:05:17] <michealpwalls> If I'm not wrong, I found it! LOL It was in DBI all along
[03:06:08] <michealpwalls> https://metacpan.org
[03:07:15] <stderr> michealpwalls: use bleech; use common::sense;
[03:07:21] <michealpwalls> think that's it, anyways. That's what happens when you do $self->{_dbh}->quote($_) I think
[03:08:51] <michealpwalls> haha stderr
[03:09:09] <stderr> At least one of those modules exists.
[03:10:07] <stderr> http://search.cpan.org
[03:10:56] <stderr> BAHAHA!!! http://search.cpan.org
[03:11:31] <michealpwalls> sqlDo() does not clean the input, I don't think? Hopefully nothing uses *that* to insert into the DB anywhere? my $rows = $self->{_dbh}->do($sql);
[03:12:03] <michealpwalls> If you can find where sqlDo() is called that takes external input you can bypass sqlQuote on the input I think
[03:12:45] <michealpwalls> in Slash/DB/Utility/Utility.pm line 1093
[03:13:35] <michealpwalls> Meh, maybe I've just had too must German beer :D
[03:13:54] <stderr> No, just too much Slash.
[03:14:01] <michealpwalls> haha
[03:14:05] <xlefay> Probably both. :P
[03:14:26] <michealpwalls> https://github.com
[03:14:38] <michealpwalls> it's wonderful
[03:15:05] <stderr> Should have had Tuborg, the beer of Danish kings...
[03:15:21] <xlefay> Perhaps, we should just 'use Acme::Bleach;' on slash, thoughts?
[03:15:34] <stderr> Sounds like a plan...
[03:15:49] <michealpwalls> Acme::Bleach - For really clean programs
[03:15:55] <michealpwalls> haha!
[03:37:54] <MrBluze> http://rt.com
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[03:41:44] <SirFinkus> old
[03:42:05] <MrBluze> only a few hours old
[03:42:05] <SirFinkus> happened like 12 hours ago, geez
[03:42:26] <SirFinkus> maybe the article, but I've been following this story for ages
[03:42:56] <MrBluze> do u think it will trigger a military incursion ?
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[03:43:28] <SirFinkus> wouldn't go that far yet, but it'll piss the separatists off a lot
[03:43:38] <MrBluze> yes
[03:43:57] <SirFinkus> I think putin is biding his time
[03:44:01] <SirFinkus> to see if the ukrainian army is really as impotent as it looks
[03:44:03] * SpallsHurgenson misreads the topic as "live free or pie" and is disappointed by the lack of pastry in the channel
[03:44:27] <SirFinkus> no sense sending in russian troops if he doesn't need to
[03:44:27] <MrBluze> better to live true than free
[03:44:36] <SirFinkus> pastry++
[03:44:36] <deadpeas> karma - pastry: 1
[03:45:42] <SirFinkus> the story now is that apparently some of the people who died in the fire may have been Russian citizens
[03:45:58] <MrBluze> indeed
[03:46:06] <MrBluze> the black ops knew that
[03:46:22] <SirFinkus> rumors and shit though, like most of this
[03:46:40] <SirFinkus> both sides in full disinfo propaganda mode
[03:46:45] <SpallsHurgenson> life is not supposed to imitate call of duty...
[03:47:33] <MrBluze> progressively larger provocations until they get the desired reaction methinks
[03:47:45] <MrBluze> baiting the bear
[03:47:56] <SirFinkus> well, both parties seem to be itching for a fight
[03:50:12] <michealpwalls> I'm skeptical of the information honestly. I cant' see why Ukraine would want to pick a fight with Russia.
[03:51:04] <SirFinkus> here's how I understand it
[03:51:24] <SirFinkus> there's the ukrainian temp government, put in place by the maidan shit
[03:52:07] <SirFinkus> the maidan movement has far right elements that are trying to co-opt the government and put themselves in power
[03:53:29] <SirFinkus> citizens in places that supported the ousted president got a little upset that country was basically taken over by the opposite party without their consent
[03:54:04] <SirFinkus> and the far right elements are pressuring the government to quell the "rebellion"
[03:54:12] <MrBluze> ukraine isnt
[03:54:21] <MrBluze> the extremist govt is bought
[03:54:36] <MrBluze> outside countries need to force russia's hands
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[03:55:13] <SirFinkus> it isn't really black and white
[03:55:22] <SirFinkus> both sides are kind of scummy
[03:56:14] <SpallsHurgenson> well, their governments are filled with politicians
[03:56:46] <SirFinkus> the separatists in the east are trying to bait russia into the fight, and the kiev guys are trying to prove that russia is already involved to try and get nato to slap their shit
[03:56:52] <SirFinkus> at least diplomatically
[03:58:31] <SirFinkus> it's nearly impossible to get a good sense of what's going on though because all the media outlets are either not covering it, or spinning the fuck out of it
[03:59:10] <MrBluze> yep
[03:59:15] <MrBluze> intel war
[03:59:20] <SirFinkus> social media from both sides is busy making fake videos and trying to make the other side look like mosters
[03:59:24] <SirFinkus> monsters even
[03:59:39] <SirFinkus> and, I don't speak Russian ;_;
[04:00:08] <michealpwalls> Oh! DBI::do() is a convenience method, equiv. to prepare() and then execute()! Although since sqlDo() isn't using @bind_params or placeholders I still don't think it's ever quoted even though it's a prepared statement...
[04:00:20] <michealpwalls> Exibit A) https://github.com
[04:00:26] <michealpwalls> Exibit B)https://github.com/SoylentNews/slashcode/blob/af1e5f2f8df732c83716d18869386482e02fa70e/Slash/DB/Utility/Utility.pm#L343
[04:00:32] <michealpwalls> Reference: http://search.cpan.org
[04:01:03] <stderr> michealpwalls: Yes, the code sucks... Here's some more bleach.
[04:01:27] <michealpwalls> haha Acme::bleach
[04:01:37] <SirFinkus> revolutions are messy, successful ones are an artifact
[04:01:50] <MrBluze> yeah definitely
[04:03:01] <michealpwalls> SirFinkus: I agree, that's how I see. I also think *governments* are making those videos, as well :)
[04:03:14] <SirFinkus> oh, absolutely
[04:03:39] <SirFinkus> although most of the stuff I've seen is creative editing of "raw" video
[04:04:07] <SirFinkus> a good example of that was something I saw on rt
[04:04:13] <michealpwalls> I can't help think, that, from all the years growing up playing strategy games.. LOL this is quite convenient that Russia's naval pride (Black Sea Fleet) is stationed in Crimea hehe
[04:05:04] <michealpwalls> It's a strategic no-brainer for Russia to want that region exclusively under their control. It's a security thing and allows the Black Sea fleet to command the Black Sea, which gives Russia strategic movement.
[04:05:11] <SirFinkus> they showed video of a injured separatist being dragged through the mud by "far right extremists", the newscaster goes on to say that he was being kicked and beaten by the mob
[04:05:32] <SirFinkus> but I saw the raw video, and they cut it before he was offered bandages and medical attention
[04:08:48] <MrBluze> poor ukrainians
[04:09:45] <michealpwalls> ^
[04:09:53] <michealpwalls> I agree
[04:09:55] <SirFinkus> yeah, I can't see this ending well
[04:10:10] <SirFinkus> it's one of those bullshit cold war proxy conflicts
[04:10:16] <MrBluze> yep
[04:10:26] <MrBluze> "i hate you, so im gonna kill your neighbour's cat"
[04:10:34] <MrBluze> so logical
[04:10:46] <michealpwalls> Not ending well for Ukraine. I think it will end well for Russia.
[04:11:52] <michealpwalls> Russia picted a smart time to make these moves.
[04:11:54] <MrBluze> maybe, maybe not
[04:12:02] <MrBluze> i dont think russia is picking the timing
[04:12:15] <MrBluze> the snipers were western foreigners
[04:12:18] <MrBluze> in the beginning
[04:12:28] <SirFinkus> ehh, snipers are still a wildcard for me
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[04:13:38] <MrBluze> during the coup that is
[04:14:56] <michealpwalls> Well, the west would benefit from removing the pro-Russian leader of Ukraine and trying to install an anti-Russian leadership that will oust the Black Sea fleet from Crimea...
[04:15:15] <michealpwalls> But then Russia would benefit from immediatly throwing wrenches into those gears..
[04:15:27] <michealpwalls> By wrenches I mean masked "pro-Russian fighters" LOL
[04:15:29] <SirFinkus> gas pipeline too
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[04:16:48] <MrBluze> if russia loses ukraine, it loses
[04:16:54] <MrBluze> that was brezinsky's idea
[04:17:06] <MrBluze> so this is a western initiative
[04:17:38] <MrBluze> and the more russia trades with germany, the more the US loses
[04:17:41] <michealpwalls> MrBluze: An old Russian queen once said "Russia without Ukraine is a nation. Russia with Ukraine is an Empire."
[04:17:48] <michealpwalls> I paraphrase of course, haha I don't speak Russian :P
[04:18:12] <MrBluze> its right.. catherine the great
[04:18:33] <michealpwalls> Yea, that's her ^
[04:18:34] <MrBluze> the US fears any economy that parts from the USD
[04:18:45] <MrBluze> the ruble is backed by real things now
[04:19:05] <MrBluze> germany asked for its gold back.. to trade with
[04:19:08] <michealpwalls> I support our empire hehe. Go team go! :)
[04:19:10] <MrBluze> but it's not getting it
[04:19:29] <michealpwalls> The american empire :D
[04:19:36] <MrBluze> 'cause US is a paper tiger .. so dont u dare ask where the gold is
[04:19:44] <michealpwalls> paper tiger? blasphemer!
[04:20:03] <SirFinkus> well, as far as military might goes, the US really isn't
[04:20:15] -!- n1|away has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[04:20:25] <michealpwalls> I wouldnt' ever bet against Americans, that's just crazytalk :)
[04:20:26] <MrBluze> economically
[04:20:33] <MrBluze> yes militarily the US is serious
[04:20:38] <SirFinkus> I can't think of anyone who could win a war with us
[04:20:47] <MrBluze> SirFinkus: taliban
[04:21:12] <MrBluze> china after 2015
[04:21:15] <MrBluze> russia now
[04:21:16] <SirFinkus> by "win a war" I mean, change the flag the flies above the capital
[04:21:18] <michealpwalls> Asymmetric war is a lot different, hehe. A gurrilla wins by simply not losing. The conventional army loses by not winning...
[04:21:32] <michealpwalls> it presents a difficult math problem when the gurrilla refuses to lose (Taliban)
[04:21:34] <michealpwalls> :/
[04:21:40] <MrBluze> yep
[04:21:46] <michealpwalls> Esp. when the conventional army (U.S) must follow international rules..
[04:21:47] <SirFinkus> russia couldn't do it, unless they used nukes, in which case everyone loses
[04:21:52] <MrBluze> russia can win now but it would win not by conventional means
[04:21:59] <SirFinkus> china has to cross oceans
[04:22:01] <MrBluze> US doesnt follow international rules
[04:22:03] <michealpwalls> Which basically make it impossible. See many historical examples for context...
[04:22:06] <MrBluze> it buys mercinaries to get around them
[04:22:18] <MrBluze> SirFinkus: it all depends on subs
[04:22:21] <michealpwalls> hehe MrBluze. That's a good tactic though :/
[04:22:37] <michealpwalls> MrBluze: Lets be real with it. The "bad guys" aren't exactly playing by the rules. Why not hire mercenaries?
[04:22:38] <MrBluze> US can be invaded via alaska
[04:22:51] <MrBluze> michealpwalls: there are only bad guys, no good guys
[04:22:54] <michealpwalls> It's good for the economy, too.
[04:22:54] <SirFinkus> so then they have to fight through canada too before they hit anything juicey
[04:22:55] <michealpwalls> LOL
[04:23:13] <SirFinkus> not to mention the weather, and the rough oceans
[04:23:19] <SirFinkus> and we'll know they're coming well in advance
[04:23:20] <michealpwalls> Invading through Alaska/Canada is a strategic dead-end...
[04:23:21] <MrBluze> SirFinkus: yes but an invasion is feasible if the both are crushed
[04:23:24] <michealpwalls> It's all about future options..
[04:23:45] <michealpwalls> By making *that* move, you take away all your other moves because you force the U.S to use the tactical nuclear option.
[04:23:55] <MrBluze> u dont have to march soldiers in
[04:23:58] <michealpwalls> And then us poor Canadians.. our maple syrup reserves are gone!
[04:24:03] <michealpwalls> :(
[04:24:07] <MrBluze> u just take over the revolution
[04:24:08] <michealpwalls> Think of the maple syrup, guys!
[04:24:11] <SirFinkus> well, actually, you kind of do need to march soldiers in
[04:24:18] <SirFinkus> to take over a country
[04:24:31] <michealpwalls> Face it. You cannot invade the U.S. You are fucking crazy.
[04:24:36] <michealpwalls> Ask an Englishman..
[04:24:37] <michealpwalls> :)
[04:24:39] <michealpwalls> He'll tell ya
[04:24:41] <MrBluze> uhm.. the US was taken over without soldiers
[04:24:54] <MrBluze> and no one hardly noticed until half a century went past
[04:25:15] <SirFinkus> I thought we were talking about an invasion
[04:25:30] <michealpwalls> lol
[04:25:43] * SirFinkus moves goalposts back
[04:26:08] <MrBluze> well. if u turn the govt
[04:26:16] <MrBluze> u can walk in peacefully
[04:26:24] <MrBluze> havent seen it happen much tho
[04:26:42] <MrBluze> crimea tho is a good example .. though it was a bit easy
[04:26:51] <SirFinkus> us probably has too much pride and nationalism for that I think
[04:27:09] <michealpwalls> You can't just topple a stable government, though.. There's a formula to that sort of thing hehe
[04:27:28] <MrBluze> yeah true
[04:27:36] <MrBluze> well the CIA and NSA havent turned
[04:27:42] <MrBluze> they are doing well
[04:27:53] <MrBluze> so .. its just following the original narrative
[04:27:54] <michealpwalls> That's why you couldnt' fuck with the U.S..
[04:28:10] <SirFinkus> crimea was already "invaded"
[04:28:19] <SirFinkus> the Russians had shittons of bases there
[04:28:25] <MrBluze> yeah
[04:28:26] <SirFinkus> and wide popular support
[04:28:30] <michealpwalls> Everywhere it counts... LOL. Man it's an empire wake up man. Geared for fighting. It's a really good system, seems modeled after Rome when you think about it on paper hehe
[04:28:33] <MrBluze> nah, the US wont fall any time soon
[04:28:51] <michealpwalls> Exactly ^
[04:29:09] <SirFinkus> US won't fall, but it does seem to be waning
[04:29:28] <michealpwalls> I think it's the cusp of major change
[04:29:32] <MrBluze> it wont fall in the way ppl think
[04:29:36] <michealpwalls> Like the Roman Republic, if you will....
[04:29:39] <MrBluze> yeah democracy is finished
[04:29:53] <MrBluze> the US will not be even nominally democratic in future
[04:30:06] <michealpwalls> The Roman Republic sufferd many of the same issues plaguing the U.S republic right now.. Esp. the economic woes (deflating currency)
[04:30:11] <SirFinkus> well, that's implying it is right now
[04:30:17] <michealpwalls> That was the cusp of the birth of the Roman Empire, though..
[04:30:31] <michealpwalls> which, well, I'm sure you all know what happened after it was born :D
[04:30:45] <SirFinkus> basically, right now it's whoever can toss enough money wins
[04:31:03] <michealpwalls> Just like Rome's republic :)
[04:31:20] <michealpwalls> It got to where all the senators were bought and paid for by the richest elite groups
[04:31:24] <michealpwalls> it was an oligarchy
[04:31:30] <michealpwalls> Sound familiar? LOL
[04:31:34] <SirFinkus> sounds familiar
[04:31:48] <SpallsHurgenson> is Facebook the praetorian guard or the barbarian hordes? :)
[04:32:26] <paulej72> yes
[04:32:35] <michealpwalls> A tool of the CIA? haha just kidding :)
[04:32:46] <MrBluze> who's kidding?
[04:32:48] <michealpwalls> :)
[04:32:53] <SpallsHurgenson> michaelpwalls: snowden, is that you? :)
[04:33:04] <michealpwalls> Oh god no!
[04:33:42] <MrBluze> the reasons for the US to fail are not obvious
[04:33:55] <michealpwalls> Well, when you say fail what do you mean?
[04:34:03] <michealpwalls> Like (not sarcastic) define fail?
[04:34:06] <SirFinkus> I think soylent news will have "arrived" once we get an nsa agent specially assigned to us
[04:34:16] <SpallsHurgenson> banning porn has got to be one of the major causes, though :)
[04:34:25] <michealpwalls> haha SirFinkus this is the age of automation my friend!
[04:34:38] <michealpwalls> Banning porn?! Now you've taken it too far.
[04:35:26] <stderr> Closing their bank accounts must be enough.
[04:35:47] <SirFinkus> bbl
[04:36:16] <michealpwalls> Honestly though, I think the U.S republic is an odd page of history. Think about it like this.. When has the world ever had a Republic that had the military *ability* to subjugate most --if not all-- of the world but chose not to try?
[04:36:22] <SpallsHurgenson> free apple pie for nsa agents assigned to soylentnews!
[04:36:32] <SpallsHurgenson> (sometimes that works)
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[04:40:11] <michealpwalls> I honestly don't think I'm going to vote anymore LOL
[04:41:26] <SpallsHurgenson> start your own political party, with gambling and beer and hookers!
[04:41:38] <michealpwalls> I would never be politically active.
[04:41:42] <michealpwalls> Are you nuts?! LOL!
[04:54:27] <SpallsHurgenson> for that matter, where IS my beer, hookers and gambling party? Where is the political group that coincides with my perverted interests?
[04:54:48] <SirFinkus> needs to be a ATF party
[04:55:08] <SirFinkus> basically, it covers all the fun stuff the ATF regulates
[04:55:55] <SirFinkus> add in the DEA too
[04:56:49] <MrBluze> . ok reasons for US failing is it is not sovereign
[04:57:07] <SpallsHurgenson> could the DEA enforce that people have enough drugs? :)
[04:57:09] <MrBluze> because of its complex financial system the ownership of things is hidden
[04:57:28] <MrBluze> and the government is more or less a privately owned entity
[04:57:35] <MrBluze> so as a nation it is a corporation with hidden owners
[04:58:09] <MrBluze> those owners are not loyal to anyone but themselves .. and so if it were expedient they would let/cause the US to fail
[04:58:24] <MrBluze> and there's nothing anyone could do about it
[04:58:39] <MrBluze> cause u dont know even where to start to look
[04:58:45] <SirFinkus> the country would improve a lot if we got rid of superpacs and capped the amount individuals could donate to canidates
[04:59:12] <MrBluze> doesnt change who owns it
[04:59:30] <MrBluze> thats like internal company operations .. its the owners that are the problem
[04:59:34] <MrBluze> like any other company
[04:59:54] <SpallsHurgenson> Mandatory drug check. Yes sir, it appears you are not sufficiently stoned. You are required by law to carry this packet of weed. You do not have to use it, but it must remain on your person for the next 24 hours if you do not.
[04:59:56] <SirFinkus> well, at least it'd be more difficult for people to buy elections
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[05:00:04] <SirFinkus> it'd take a few years though
[05:00:11] <MrBluze> yeah
[05:00:21] <MrBluze> when the US started off things were simpler
[05:00:46] <SirFinkus> I think that's the best concrete change we could make right now
[05:02:50] <SirFinkus> so anyway, what's everyone reading these days?
[05:04:19] <SirFinkus> almost done with "the coming plague" and "a canticle for leiboitz" is next in my queue
[05:05:58] * SpallsHurgenson is working through Baxter's Xeelee books
[05:06:07] <SpallsHurgenson> Canticle is one of my favorite distopians
[05:06:32] <MrBluze> my internet is getting worse every day
[05:06:33] <SirFinkus> my uncle recommended it to me
[05:06:43] <SirFinkus> I'm kind of on a roll now
[05:06:50] <arti> MrBluze: have you tried feeding it better food?
[05:06:55] <SirFinkus> last two were on the beach and command and control
[05:06:57] <arti> a big part of health is food
[05:06:59] <SpallsHurgenson> I'm not sure Canticle has aged well, though
[05:07:32] * SirFinkus has an unhealthy obsession with bleak post apocalyptic novels
[05:07:36] <MrBluze> nah i feed it shit
[05:07:41] <MrBluze> that could be the problem
[05:07:55] <SirFinkus> ehh, I'll see
[05:07:57] <SirFinkus> can't be that bad
[05:08:51] <SirFinkus> is it going to talk about how teletypes were the pinnacle of global communication or something?
[05:10:27] <SpallsHurgenson> no, its more a political and social zeerust than technological
[05:11:12] <SirFinkus> ehh, I'll probably like it
[05:11:17] <SirFinkus> my uncle was usually pretty spot on
[05:11:52] * SpallsHurgenson read Christopher Priest's "Inverted World" before that...pretty good except for the ending
[05:12:51] <SirFinkus> ehh, it's kind of a personal thing for me
[05:13:23] <SirFinkus> I was pretty close with my uncle, and this is the last on a list of books he recommended I read before he died
[05:14:02] <SirFinkus> I'll put it on the list though
[05:14:24] <SirFinkus> I was thinking "earth abides" next though
[05:17:09] <SpallsHurgenson> and before that... Glukhovsky's Metro 2033. Very Russian, but a fun and original post-apocalyptic
[05:17:51] <SirFinkus> I really liked on the beach
[05:18:12] <SpallsHurgenson> The Beach... was that the one in Australia?
[05:18:16] <SirFinkus> yeah
[05:18:43] <SirFinkus> nuclear war happens, and they're all awaiting their death in australia
[05:18:48] <SpallsHurgenson> I don't remember if I read it or saw the movie (did they make a movie? 'Cause if they didn't, then I read it :)
[05:18:57] <SirFinkus> they've made 2 movies
[05:19:45] <SirFinkus> I think the second was made for tv, so if you saw one, it was probably the first
[05:19:47] <SirFinkus> black and white
[05:20:16] <SpallsHurgenson> those wacky ozzies and their remakes
[05:21:04] <SirFinkus> if it was made these days, I can't imagine a director resisting the urge to add a bunch of explosions and shit
[05:23:04] <SpallsHurgenson> even though they are significantly different in tone, The Beach always reminds me of The Quiet Earth (also an ozzie post-apocalyptic movie)
[05:27:30] <SirFinkus> bah, internet connection may be taking a shit
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[05:27:52] <MrBluze> tga has issued a recall of propofol vials across australia
[05:28:33] <MrBluze> expect a lot of surgery to be cancelled
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[05:30:01] <MrBluze> interesting how the trade union house fire is presented as a random bit of death, not that one side massacred another
[05:30:06] <MrBluze> in the msm
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[05:34:48] <SirFinkus> western?
[05:35:13] <MrBluze> yeah
[05:35:22] <SirFinkus> shocked they're even covering it
[05:35:38] <SirFinkus> that was pretty nasty
[05:36:32] <SirFinkus> lol I went to ccn's site and their top story was on tainted meat
[05:36:52] <MrBluze> fighting between sides has resulted in 31 deaths in a burnt building and several shot
[05:36:57] <MrBluze> makes it sound like a football match squabble
[05:36:59] <MrBluze> they dont say "they surrounded the people in their tents, started shooting at them until they retreated into the building, then shuttered the building and set it alight"
[05:37:19] <SirFinkus> "Reports suggest that both pro-Russians and supporters of Kiev were throwing petrol bombs in the area"
[05:37:21] <MrBluze> ironic.. tainted meat
[05:37:24] <SirFinkus> bbc is downplaying it
[05:37:39] <MrBluze> reports suggest the freakin 3 letter agencies are doing stuff
[05:38:16] <SpallsHurgenson> damn FCC and IRS!
[05:38:22] <SirFinkus> they're always "doing stuff"
[05:39:37] <SirFinkus> bbl
[05:39:40] <MrBluze> np
[05:41:39] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Living with Lag - http://sylnt.us - TTL-WHA?
[05:46:11] <SpallsHurgenson> warning: previous link is stealth advertising for some ISP (funny, though)
[05:46:23] <SpallsHurgenson> A soylvertisment?
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[06:12:43] <SpallsHurgenson> hmmm, neighbor is listening to REM's "Everyone Hurts"
[06:12:49] <SirFinkus> lol
[06:13:26] <SirFinkus> is that even taken seriously as a song, or is it just used as a comedy thing at this point?
[06:13:36] * SpallsHurgenson fires up the mp3, does his best to sync it to the neighbor's version and turns up the volume
[06:14:00] <SirFinkus> lol
[06:15:52] <SpallsHurgenson> shoot, by the time I was ready, he was already on to the next song!
[06:16:06] <MrBluze> story of my life
[06:17:18] <MrBluze> http://rinf.com according to this, US is now in plan B
[06:17:34] <SpallsHurgenson> here's the story of my life (nsfw) http://www.youtube.com :)
[06:18:20] <MrBluze> luckily im not at work ..
[06:19:07] <SpallsHurgenson> "presstitute media"? Do they write "Micro$oft" too?
[06:19:31] <SirFinkus> lol
[06:19:59] <SirFinkus> websites aren't loading for me, fucking garbage consumer routers
[06:20:01] <SpallsHurgenson> what was it someone once said, "a funny name does not constitute a valid argument!"
[06:20:37] <MrBluze> .. but its better than nothing
[06:27:55] * SpallsHurgenson - ever so slowly - uploads 630MB of pictures up to Flickr
[06:30:43] <MrBluze> thats a lot
[06:31:15] <SpallsHurgenson> 967 images, apparently :)
[06:31:22] * MrBluze writing some js
[06:32:22] <SpallsHurgenson> ranging from pix grabbed as far back as '96, and in sizes as small as 16kb :)
[06:33:29] <MrBluze> gifs
[06:33:35] <MrBluze> tiffs
[06:33:41] <MrBluze> bmp's
[06:34:06] <SpallsHurgenson> JPGs and a few PNGs
[06:35:09] <MrBluze> 90's were a good time for computing
[06:35:23] <MrBluze> amiga was going strong still
[06:35:42] <MrBluze> well.. until the middle anyway
[06:36:02] <SpallsHurgenson> smallest is 306x193, largest is 8814x1223 :)
[06:36:32] <SpallsHurgenson> a REAL Amiga fan wouldn't admit the Amiga isn't STILL doing strong :)
[06:37:38] * SpallsHurgenson just realized that REM's "Everybody Hurts" has been playing in the background through umpteen iterations... my neighbor probably hates me now :)
[06:38:04] <MrBluze> lol
[06:38:11] <MrBluze> well amiga is still alive, yes.. sort of
[06:38:30] <MrBluze> but yeah it is so hopelessly behind now it's really just retro
[06:38:45] <SpallsHurgenson> heretic! it's not dead, it's just... resting!
[06:38:49] <SpallsHurgenson> Pining for the fjords, it is!
[06:39:01] <SpallsHurgenson> 2014 will be the year of Amiga on the desktop!
[06:39:42] <SpallsHurgenson> erm, again!
[06:40:10] <SirFinkus> pfft, dns broken again
[06:40:38] <MrBluze> lol
[06:40:43] <MrBluze> i dont even have a desktop
[06:40:45] <MrBluze> i have a sofa
[06:40:58] <SirFinkus> I'd say "ikd how comcast gets away with this crap" but I totally do
[06:41:01] <MrBluze> or a barfridge or .. whatever flat surface i can rest the laptop on
[06:41:07] <SpallsHurgenson> Amiga can hook up to your TV!
[06:41:56] <MrBluze> so can my dell
[06:42:14] <SpallsHurgenson> Heathen!
[06:42:23] <MrBluze> but amiga had the best sound
[06:42:28] <MrBluze> beautiful and mellow for 8 bit
[06:42:53] <SpallsHurgenson> bah, when it comes to audio my heart belongs to my Gravis Ultrasound Max :)
[06:43:25] * SirFinkus is too young to remember all this stuff
[06:43:32] <MrBluze> that wasnt as good as amiga
[06:43:49] <MrBluze> amiga's bit rates were theoretically in the mhz
[06:44:27] <MrBluze> so u could basically get a crisp sound and not notice it is 8 bit
[06:44:30] <SpallsHurgenson> bah, all the real demo teams went to GUS :)
[06:44:53] <MrBluze> yeah towards the end there were some great PC demos
[06:45:28] <SpallsHurgenson> I think I still have TiMIDIty installed in some deep dark corner of my hard-drive :)
[06:46:12] <MrBluze> i got winuae working ;)
[06:46:23] <MrBluze> and sunvox
[06:46:52] <MrBluze> well fs-uae
[06:47:45] <SpallsHurgenson> you ripped that ROM outta your Amiga pretty quickly <wink>
[06:48:14] -!- prospectacle [prospectacle!~3a6b4f4a@n74-623-21-69.mit519.act.optusnet.com.au] has joined #Soylent
[06:48:39] <prospectacle> good afternoon
[06:49:11] <MrBluze> hi prospectacle
[06:49:22] <MrBluze> i started making a js implementation of what we discussed
[06:49:38] <prospectacle> cool. i'm working on the php version.
[06:49:56] <prospectacle> Discovered openssl_encrypt_public only does fairly short strings, but I'll just split it up and concatenate with ...
[06:50:15] <prospectacle> how are the crypto libraries for js?
[06:50:32] <MrBluze> i found an aes-256
[06:50:36] <MrBluze> and sha-2
[06:50:40] <prospectacle> nice
[06:50:53] <MrBluze> i'll use those and output strings as base64
[06:50:57] <prospectacle> I'm using sha256 for hashing
[06:51:08] <MrBluze> so the messages can be base64
[06:51:11] <MrBluze> .. okay
[06:51:13] <prospectacle> Yeah and then base64 on the ecnrypted data so you can paste it in any medium.
[06:51:25] <MrBluze> well it'll be modular - so can plug any hash in, any crypto in
[06:51:45] <MrBluze> just the mechanism of string in / key in / encrypted msg and header and hash out
[06:51:50] <prospectacle> of course the hashing isn't that important to the security, it's more of a verifier. But if a good one (sha256) is quick and easy, and not too big, then why not.
[06:52:14] <MrBluze> well it's useful for not using plaintext at all
[06:52:21] <prospectacle> MrBluze, yes, I was thinking of adding a messge type identifier, that way you know "it's using this hash, this encryption, etc"
[06:52:25] <MrBluze> u hash the recipient/sender/thread combination
[06:52:41] <MrBluze> yeah i agree
[06:52:53] <MrBluze> that could be part of the header maybe
[06:52:58] <prospectacle> so, e.g PrivateSenderMsg[to:a;slkjh3245th3ekthe; message_type:1; message: 234klh34kht53l;j53;lj53;l4j53;lj534]
[06:53:21] <MrBluze> .. sort of ..
[06:53:37] <MrBluze> i thought of a header like this : rsa256-afdih3pg89dfvanjvaeriuh54t98ufinvainuw98uas9djvn94
[06:53:58] <prospectacle> then we can have all the combinations we want, secret sender, secret recpiient, secret both, progressive-salt, etc.
[06:54:03] <MrBluze> and that's it .. the second part is a hash of recipient/sender keys and salt
[06:54:37] <MrBluze> yeah.. u only find the header if u are looking for it :)
[06:54:45] <MrBluze> the server side could just match the first 32 chars
[06:54:52] <MrBluze> and if u match those, it lets u view the rest
[06:55:21] <MrBluze> that way the client and server dont need to communicate the full hashes to match
[06:56:21] <MrBluze> rsa256-sha256-....header...
[06:57:58] <prospectacle> so do you say "Give me all messages starting with these 32 characters", or do you say "I'm this user-hash, what do you have for me?"
[06:58:41] <prospectacle> I was thinking for my first version the transmission medium will be unimportant, you can paste it anywhere (irc, pastebin, blog, etc), as long as it gets to the intended person, they can process see it's for them, it and process it to it was valid.
[06:59:15] <prospectacle> let me rephrase that: They can see the header is one that's for them, and then process it to see if it's valid
[07:01:27] <MrBluze> grr
[07:01:30] <MrBluze> net is bad
[07:01:42] <MrBluze> yes, i agree prospectacle
[07:01:49] <MrBluze> make a version that can post anywhere
[07:01:58] <MrBluze> and then make a convenience version
[07:02:03] <MrBluze> that people can host on servers
[07:02:07] <MrBluze> brb
[07:04:27] <MrBluze> so..
[07:04:31] <prospectacle> cool. Yes later on you can have a server. I guess you could have it like email in that you have a specific server (or multiple servers, just to keep people guessing), that messges for you are sent to. But it's not always clear to other people which of the messages on that server are for you. You request "messages since time x" and you parse them all and see which ones are for you.
[07:04:44] <prospectacle> IF you're paranoid that is. Alternatively you can say "Give me messages with these headers, please, server"
[07:04:45] <MrBluze> yes
[07:04:59] <MrBluze> well searchng can be for part of a header
[07:04:59] <prospectacle> or whatever, you can choose your own level of paranoia, and the system will accomodate.
[07:05:27] <prospectacle> mrbluze, yes, true. You could narrow it down to just the first 10 bytes or whatever. You will only get a few false positives, and if it's just text it won't break the bandwidth bank.
[07:05:27] <MrBluze> the salt chain can direct where to put the subsequent messages
[07:05:35] <MrBluze> or where to look for them
[07:05:39] <MrBluze> yep
[07:05:59] <MrBluze> and then also means u can restrict searches to 1 per second or so, to prevent trawling for hashes
[07:06:24] <SirFinkus> yay, dns is back
[07:06:41] <prospectacle> mrbluze, right.
[07:06:45] <MrBluze> .. the progressive salt can direct which server to look for the next message etc, so if there is a network of say, 20 servers, the message chain can be randomly distributed
[07:07:12] <prospectacle> It also means it's easy to apply to all kinds of use-cases. e.g. a "contact me" form on your website, you know immediately if it's a friend or a stranger. no login required.
[07:07:13] <MrBluze> ie: encrypt even where messages are looked for
[07:08:22] <prospectacle> mrbluze, yes, good idea. I'm thinking at the moment version 1 handles basic verification with a clear to: or from: that identifies only the user or the sender. After that we can add handshake for salted has of both user and sender. After that progressive handshake for changing salts. AFter that (or at the same time), handshakes can specifiy what servers to use.
[07:09:15] <prospectacle> I mean even version 1 is very secure, it means you can know all these messges are going to the same person, but that's it.
[07:09:19] <MrBluze> yes
[07:09:49] <MrBluze> very good
[07:10:18] <MrBluze> and then make a c/c++ version so it can at some point become an email app
[07:10:30] <prospectacle> good enough for 90% of messages, i would think. I mean to get anything more meaningful you'd need to find out who was uploading and who was copying/pasting the message, and other difficult things like that.
[07:10:48] <prospectacle> Yes once the algorithm and protocol is worked out people can make it in whatever way they want.
[07:13:48] <MrBluze> yeah
[07:14:01] <MrBluze> just make it very flexible
[07:14:17] <MrBluze> maybe a bunch of [stuff][stuff][stuff] combinations
[07:14:19] <SirFinkus> ok, so regarding the lag video, they totally should have played laser tag
[07:14:22] <prospectacle> I tried thinking up better names: trustmail, safemail, etc, but they're all taken, so whatever.
[07:14:30] <MrBluze> and then just 2jasoijgaoinawoin as the encrypted message
[07:14:38] <prospectacle> Maybe "diplomatic-pouch-mail"
[07:14:39] <MrBluze> prospectacle: just call it firingsquid
[07:14:45] <MrBluze> ;)
[07:14:57] <prospectacle> lol
[07:15:23] <prospectacle> or "diplopoumai" for short
[07:15:24] <MrBluze> yeah i dunno the best name for it
[07:15:46] <prospectacle> Guess we'll need another vote
[07:15:52] * prospectacle ducks
[07:16:12] <MrBluze> we can vote by ESP
[07:16:18] <MrBluze> u know where to vote, you know how. thank you.
[07:16:32] <prospectacle> lol, if you don't know, then you're not eligible.
[07:16:39] <MrBluze> yup
[07:17:04] <MrBluze> we'll get a ouja board out and work the name out later
[07:17:21] <MrBluze> cockroachmail
[07:18:06] <prospectacle> thatsnotgomuchspaminit
[07:18:48] <MrBluze> noybmail
[07:18:48] <prospectacle> we can call it "spam egg sausage and spam" because "that's not got much spam in it"
[07:18:56] <MrBluze> baconmail
[07:18:58] <MrBluze> ha!
[07:19:19] <prospectacle> mmm, baconmail, twice as delicious as any other mail
[07:19:26] <MrBluze> yep
[07:19:30] <MrBluze> with salt, and bacon seasoning
[07:19:37] <prospectacle> salt I get it.
[07:19:40] <prospectacle> saltmail
[07:19:44] <MrBluze> saltmail
[07:19:51] <MrBluze> yes
[07:19:59] <prospectacle> already a blog called saltmail.
[07:20:04] <prospectacle> screw you, internet
[07:20:18] <SirFinkus> http://www.liveleak.com inside the trade union house, nsfw
[07:20:19] <prospectacle> oh well not important. I'm gonna get back to making something work
[07:20:22] <MrBluze> dayum
[07:20:37] <MrBluze> im gonna be a while geting this working my time is very limited
[07:20:54] <MrBluze> SirFinkus: i think this is supposed to be the tipping point
[07:21:07] <SirFinkus> yeah, totally
[07:21:22] <SirFinkus> "remember odessa" will be the rallying cry
[07:21:38] <MrBluze> yep
[07:21:44] <MrBluze> ethnic cleansing
[07:22:01] <MrBluze> and a few years from now we'll find out which 3 letter agency did it
[07:22:27] <prospectacle> dpr
[07:23:12] -!- SpallsHurgenson has quit [Quit: head broken, looking for replacement]
[07:23:25] <prospectacle> but in all seriousness, this is pretty fucked up.
[07:23:25] <SirFinkus> DPRK
[07:24:07] <SirFinkus> I can't think of a worse way to die
[07:24:25] <SirFinkus> suffocating, but inches from safety
[07:24:59] <MrBluze> yep
[07:24:59] <MrBluze> they werent allowed out
[07:25:48] <SirFinkus> ehh, that seems half right
[07:26:03] <SirFinkus> so much bullshit it's hard to tell
[07:26:18] <SirFinkus> based on what I've seen, they just couldn't get out
[07:26:35] <MrBluze> who's footage is this
[07:26:37] <SirFinkus> since the fires were on the lower floor
[07:26:43] <SirFinkus> fuck if I know
[07:26:49] <MrBluze> but they went in because they were retreating from tents
[07:26:55] <MrBluze> liveleak is US
[07:27:09] <MrBluze> war porn basically
[07:27:29] <SirFinkus> I don't have anything concrete
[07:27:41] <SirFinkus> just based on footage I've seen
[07:27:56] <SirFinkus> I haven't really seen people fleeing the building getting killed
[07:28:11] <MrBluze> i read reports ppl were jumping from the upper windows
[07:28:32] <SirFinkus> well, that doesn't mean they were killed
[07:28:40] <SirFinkus> by the crowd I mean
[07:29:15] <SirFinkus> molotoving the building was a shitty thing to do, but I'm not convinced the crowd was trying to trap people in there and killing those who escaped
[07:29:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> what i wanna know is what screw has to be loose in someone's head to want to watch that kinda thing
[07:30:01] <SirFinkus> TheMightyBuzzard: I'm just trying to find out what's going on
[07:30:19] <SirFinkus> I'm not believing anything russian media says until I see it
[07:30:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> well duh, they're state run
[07:30:33] <MrBluze> there is a lack of detail
[07:30:42] <prospectacle> browsing other news, everyone sure showed donald sterling: forcing him to sell his team for probably $500 million+ more than what he paid for it. That will teach him the error of his ways.
[07:31:29] <MrBluze> yeah
[07:31:36] <MrBluze> the west are making this out to be a tragic accident
[07:31:45] <MrBluze> the russians are making it out to be a western thing
[07:31:52] <MrBluze> so its probably half way
[07:32:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> believing anything the russian media says involving russian politics is insane
[07:32:19] <SirFinkus> I think the west is kind of egging them on, but not providing direct materiel support
[07:32:33] <MrBluze> probably
[07:32:40] <MrBluze> they have their spooks in there coordinating
[07:32:57] <SirFinkus> I'm not even sure of that
[07:33:14] <MrBluze> and are moving ships around to supply equipment in the guise of protecting neighbours
[07:33:25] <MrBluze> whereas russia can just slip stuff past the porous borders
[07:33:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> should be. everywhere we have even a consulate we have CIA
[07:33:35] * arti catches up
[07:34:01] <arti> MrBluze: are you talking about the theatre where they pumped that gas in?
[07:34:14] <SirFinkus> lol
[07:34:21] <SirFinkus> sucessful spetsnaz operation
[07:34:49] <SirFinkus> got the terrorists
[07:34:54] <MrBluze> that was spetsnaz
[07:35:00] <arti> yeah, they did. came at a high price
[07:35:04] <MrBluze> arti: about the trades hall that burnt down
[07:35:14] <MrBluze> in ukraine just now .. 31 dead or so
[07:35:17] <arti> eek
[07:35:19] <SirFinkus> 133 hostages, 40 terrorists dead
[07:35:27] -!- pingus [pingus!~pert.boio@76.84.hjr.llj] has joined #Soylent
[07:35:31] <SirFinkus> mission accomplished
[07:35:32] * arti likes how the russians don't take any shit
[07:35:41] <michealpwalls> :O
[07:36:01] <MrBluze> it contained separatists
[07:36:10] <MrBluze> mostly russians, ethnically
[07:36:35] <arti> in regards to terrorists
[07:36:37] <SirFinkus> apparently they used a fentanyl derivitave
[07:36:50] <SirFinkus> I guess they died happy?
[07:37:08] <arti> https://www.youtube.com
[07:37:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> i admire that they know how to run a war.
[07:37:23] <SirFinkus> although fentanyl is less euphoric than other opiods
[07:37:31] <MrBluze> "russian speaking" = putin considers in his interests
[07:37:41] <arti> shitler did the same thing
[07:37:47] <SirFinkus> 50-100 times stronger than morphine
[07:37:47] <arti> o/
[07:37:56] <arti> whoo dilly
[07:38:07] <arti> try and keep your eyes open with that
[07:38:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> if the us did anything like that there'd be the entire left utterly losing their shit and the president blaming someone else when he gave the order.
[07:38:38] <arti> couldn't they just say that they were terrorists and be done with it?
[07:38:50] <arti> "yeah, they were bad guys. trust us!"
[07:39:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> arti, yeah, that worked soooo well to appease the left.
[07:39:09] <arti> [ Massaged Evidence Intensifies ]
[07:39:10] <MrBluze> dunno, the lack of rhetoric is interesting
[07:39:16] <SirFinkus> naw, US does shit like that all the time with drones
[07:39:25] <arti> HELLFIRE!
[07:39:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> no rhetoric needed when you control the media
[07:39:34] <SirFinkus> similar civilian terrorist kdr anyway
[07:39:58] <arti> sirfinkus, c'mon it's already expensive enough, do you know how much proper verification would cost?
[07:40:34] <arti> so as morbid as this is, how soon until we see some railgun footage on troops
[07:40:41] <SirFinkus> the main thing I've learned is that if you're on the list, don't go to weddings
[07:40:50] <arti> "as you can see here, we've slowed it down 5000x"
[07:40:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> verification? no verification needed for putin. he killed the hostages knowing full well he was.
[07:41:25] <arti> putin looks like a bond villain
[07:41:31] * arti likes referring to him as pootie
[07:41:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> he's russian, whatcha expect.
[07:42:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> railgun's neat technologically but at ground zero it's just another bomb.
[07:43:01] <arti> if you hear it, you've survived.
[07:43:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep. saves all that "oh shit" moment bother
[07:44:55] <michealpwalls> Pretty sure they store that idea from Quake.
[07:45:06] <michealpwalls> s/store/stole
[07:45:06] * SedBot offers macholpwylls a /
[07:45:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> i won't fault putin his tactics though. they're effective and in war that's all that matters.
[07:45:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> the sooner your enemy surrenders, the less people die.
[07:45:50] <SirFinkus> he's obviously very intelligent about how he does things
[07:45:52] <MrBluze> poutine
[07:46:01] <arti> haha
[07:46:03] <arti> poutine
[07:46:05] <SirFinkus> putin+-
[07:46:09] <arti> MrBluze++
[07:46:09] <deadpeas> karma - mrbluze: 22
[07:46:13] <michealpwalls> I like Pootie
[07:46:17] <arti> Puti
[07:46:24] <MrBluze> poutine is intelligent but annoying
[07:46:45] <MrBluze> putin is intelligent and .. scary/inspiring/interesting depending on who u might be
[07:46:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> MrBluze, mostly because he's a far better CIC than we've had in a long time.
[07:47:20] <michealpwalls> gwb.
[07:47:39] <arti> https://www.youtube.com
[07:47:45] <arti> annoying music, sorry
[07:47:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, reagan was the last one who knew what he was doing AND had the balls to do it.
[07:47:53] <MrBluze> yup
[07:48:08] <MrBluze> balls is the thing
[07:48:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> gwb only had the balls
[07:48:16] <SirFinkus> I like the dog story
[07:48:17] <MrBluze> the controllers of the US dont have those
[07:48:25] <MrBluze> very cowardly by and large
[07:48:39] <arti> careful, they might free you for saying that
[07:48:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> kennedy's my favorite though. guy had the stones to say "fuck it, let's destroy the world then" to russia.
[07:49:03] <arti> kennedy had some cool ideas
[07:49:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, like lowering the top income tax rate by a fuckton
[07:50:06] <SirFinkus> this one http://blog.foreignpolicy.com idk about the source
[07:50:09] <MrBluze> well the US was well managed until it floated the currency away from gold
[07:50:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> if JFK were alive today, the DNC would burn him at the stake.
[07:50:20] <arti> well besides that the whole fed thing
[07:50:29] <MrBluze> yeah and the fed
[07:50:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> MrBluze, that was nixon, yep.
[07:50:42] <arti> MrBluze: indeed
[07:51:09] <MrBluze> the lies balooned after that
[07:51:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> maybe it's just me but i don't like my money being based on fairy farts and promises
[07:51:31] <arti> well, less bank runs :D
[07:51:39] <SirFinkus> I've never understood the gold standard
[07:52:10] <SirFinkus> only reason gold is really worth what it is is because it's shiny
[07:52:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> SirFinkus, a dollar entitled you to exactly X amount of gold if you decided to redeem it.
[07:52:31] <SirFinkus> I understand that, but gold seems nearly as bullshit as the dollar
[07:52:42] <arti> srsly
[07:52:44] <MrBluze> sort of
[07:52:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> also damned useful as a conductor that doesn't corrode. heat and electricity.
[07:52:51] <MrBluze> but it was a restraint
[07:52:51] <arti> and diamonds are just rocks
[07:52:53] <MrBluze> bbl i gotta go out
[07:52:55] <MrBluze> cheers
[07:52:57] * arti salutes
[07:52:59] <arti> take care MrBluze
[07:53:00] <SirFinkus> the only slight advantage is that it is conductive and doesn't corrode
[07:53:06] <MrBluze> u2 chers
[07:53:10] <SirFinkus> but it's mainly valuable because it's shiny
[07:53:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes but it is a very good conductor of both electricity and heat. up there with copper/silver/aluminum
[07:53:56] <SirFinkus> I understand that, but that isn't why it's valuable
[07:54:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's what keeps the value up. otherwise, yeah, pretty.
[07:54:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> but it'd be 800 instead of 1600 or so if that was all there was to it.
[07:54:49] <prospectacle> to the incas gold wasn't valuable, textiles were. Gold was everywhere, but textiles took work
[07:55:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> they didn't have to deal with chinese textile competition though
[07:56:08] <prospectacle> right. It's all relative.
[07:56:27] <SirFinkus> I suspect it'd be much less valuable than 800 if it wasn't shiny
[07:56:40] <prospectacle> I think the most stable commodity is land-usage-rights. People gotta live somewhere.
[07:57:00] <prospectacle> base money on land-usage credits. Value is guaranteed and stable.
[07:57:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> doubt it. it's in every bit of electronics you own.
[07:57:07] <SirFinkus> as plating
[07:57:19] <SirFinkus> tiny amounts of it
[07:57:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, then also tax the land? confusing.
[07:57:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes but think of how many electronic things you own.
[07:57:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> and how many you throw away every year.
[07:58:18] <prospectacle> themightbuzzard, yes exactly. Govt hands out credits to citizens, you then pay govt to use land. Specific land values based on auction. Every month, roughly the same amount comes back as goes out.
[07:58:42] <SirFinkus> all with tiny amounts of gold
[07:58:43] <prospectacle> free money for all. stable money supply.
[07:59:00] <prospectacle> apparently more gold in your average landfill than your average goldmine
[07:59:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, how bout we just peg it to half a dozen different commodities? salt, flour, water, etc...
[08:00:07] <prospectacle> themightbuzzard, that would work too. As long as they're things everybody always needs. And as long as the govt can guarantee supply of whatever things the money is based on.
[08:00:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> i don't want the government handing out anything. reeks of socialism.
[08:00:26] <prospectacle> well govt already taxes land, and decides who can use which bits for what purposes (zoning)
[08:00:31] <prospectacle> so it's not a new power.
[08:00:40] <prospectacle> also govt already hands out money, by deciding who to lend to and at what rate.
[08:00:43] <prospectacle> So that's not new either
[08:00:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> is a fucked up one though.
[08:00:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, they con't decide
[08:01:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> bonds can be sold by/to anyone.
[08:01:30] <prospectacle> it may or may not be a fucked power, but it's a power governments have always had.
[08:02:13] <prospectacle> not bonds, but actual dollars. They decide who can borrow from fed and who can lend at fractional reserve (And at what fraction)
[08:02:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> taxes all fine and good but zoning needs to gtfo beyond the city level
[08:03:07] <prospectacle> well consider it as just a tax then. Imagine the only tax was land tax. Govt hands out $X per person and charges land tax. So all the money comes back to them eventually. Market decides how it comes back to them, and who uses what land.
[08:03:30] <prospectacle> next month, send the money out again. take it back in again as land tax
[08:03:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, no. no govt handouts.
[08:03:47] <arti> c'mon man, errbody is doing it
[08:03:56] <arti> redistribution is key
[08:04:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> i know. also know most people are morons.
[08:04:15] <prospectacle> what's wrong with handouts?
[08:04:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> arti, cool, gimme yo money.
[08:04:36] <arti> you'll have to go through the government
[08:04:39] * arti pays his taxes
[08:04:43] <prospectacle> govt creates the money, citizens own the govt, citizens get the money.
[08:04:48] <arti> ^- heh
[08:04:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, puts you at the power of the government. never, ever a good place to be.
[08:04:51] -!- Subsentient [Subsentient!~WhiteRat@universe2.us/Subsentient] has joined #Soylent
[08:05:06] <prospectacle> themightbuzzard, you are already at the power of the govt. that's the point of govt
[08:05:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, no, it is not and no i am not
[08:05:32] <prospectacle> don't they make laws you have to follow?
[08:05:36] <Subsentient> dafuq happened to aqu4
[08:05:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> they can only kill or imprison me, otherwise i am free to do as i like.
[08:06:08] <prospectacle> right, but you know the conditions under which they are (more likely) to kill or imprison you, and that knowledge affects your actions.
[08:06:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> and i do not have to follow their laws. i follow only the ones i choose to.
[08:06:19] -!- aqu4 [aqu4!~aqu4bot@universe2.us/ircbot/aqu4] has joined #Soylent
[08:06:29] <arti> :D
[08:06:33] <arti> $burrito prospectacle
[08:06:34] * aqu4 chucks a nasty, rotten burrito at prospectacle
[08:06:39] <Subsentient> $burrito arti
[08:06:39] * aqu4 chucks a nasty, rotten burrito at arti
[08:06:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> thus do i give the finger to fascism
[08:06:53] <arti> fascism is awesome
[08:06:55] <prospectacle> themightybuzzard, how would that state of affairs (you follow the laws you choose to) be any different if the monetary system was based as I said?
[08:07:00] <arti> look how efficient things are with it!
[08:07:13] * arti fans the flames
[08:07:20] <pingus> $burrito pingus
[08:07:20] * aqu4 chucks a nasty, rotten burrito at pingus
[08:07:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, at their whim they could take me from rich to poor. this should not be within their power.
[08:07:32] <pingus> damn, wanted a burrito
[08:07:39] <Subsentient> I am in favor of rule by divine giant gerbil shaped gods.
[08:07:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> and at this moment it isn't
[08:08:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> Subsentient, miniature giant space hamsters ftw
[08:08:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> go for the eyes, boo!
[08:08:13] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, how could they do that under the system I described. I just said every citizen gets $x a month. EVery citizen, every month.
[08:08:29] <Subsentient> I have a better idea.
[08:08:34] <prospectacle> they can't make you rich or poor by doing that.
[08:08:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, yeah, how did that work for income tax? last i checked who got what gets politicized like a boss every two years.
[08:08:54] <Subsentient> No money, use a non-transferrable personal quota system divided into goods categories
[08:09:55] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard. Income tax is very different system. It's marginal, for starters.
[08:10:23] <prospectacle> Subsentient, why non transferrable?
[08:10:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, where there is money, there will be politics. if the DNC can't promise more to the poor and the RNC can't promise more to the rich, it will never pass.
[08:11:05] * arti enjoys most of the discussion here
[08:11:19] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, probably will never pass under those conditions, true. It would be a good system, though. Fair, stable, equal.
[08:11:20] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Well, capitalism will be legal, but the government will be prohibited by constitution from providing transferrable currency or banks, etc. To make it more difficult and to keep it from being institutionalized.
[08:11:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> and if it's not constitutional they can alter it at the whim of the party in power.
[08:11:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, i don't want equal because equal is not fair
[08:11:49] <Subsentient> So you don't get equal
[08:11:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> equal is so far from fair it's absurd
[08:11:57] <Subsentient> Just nobody gets stuck with 'poor'
[08:11:57] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, depends what, specifically is equal.
[08:12:23] <prospectacle> Subsentient, so can you make your own currencies, or something? How do you trade?
[08:12:48] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, equal access to fresh air to breathe, for example, is not unfair, is it?
[08:13:02] <Subsentient> prospectacle: You can do anything like that sure, but if you start hurting people or scamming, the government will still step in and punish it as a non-business-oriented crime. e.g. theft
[08:13:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, as it stands now the market decides whose work is valuable and whose isn't. this is fair because both parties have to agree to the exchange.
[08:13:53] <Subsentient> prospectacle: The point of the quota is to provide a permanent, stable alternative to capitalistic trade without inhibiting your rights.
[08:14:14] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, and that would not need to change. I'm not saying everyone gets paid equally for their work. I'm saying every gets the same starting money and can trade it however they like. You can negotiate whatever wages you want with an employer.
[08:14:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> Subsentient, suppose i want more or don't need as much? who are you to tell me what i deserve?
[08:14:37] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: You get what you work for.
[08:14:47] <Subsentient> If you don't work we won't let you starve or end up poor
[08:15:00] <Subsentient> but we sure as hell aren't going to give you a mansion and a ferarri
[08:15:02] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, private contracts would not be in any way prevented or fixed. It's the initial money supply that's equal. AFter that you pay whoever you want as much as you want.
[08:15:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> why not, you should.
[08:16:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, you're still talking about putting everyone on a fixed income. if it's enough to live off of society collapses in a month because everyone quits their job.
[08:16:49] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, that's assuming most people wouldn't work if they wouldn't starve to death by not working.
[08:16:59] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, most people want more than the bare minimum, and will work to get it.
[08:17:02] <Subsentient> Depends. If you are stuck with a tiny condo and end up with food quotas too low to secure yourself any twinkies, the work force will proceed.
[08:17:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> Subsentient, hungry people in general are willing to work extremely hard to not be that way. they don't need a handout they need to be shown where to start working.
[08:17:41] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: No, I believe that the age of everyone gets a job is ending.
[08:17:51] -!- michealpwalls has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[08:17:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, they would. this whole idea that plumbers would still unstop your shitty toilet is insane.
[08:18:22] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, say you and i each had 100 credits. You grow your own food and I buy some from you for 20 credits (Which we agree on), now you can afford more land to grow your food on. I have food but a smaller plot of land.
[08:18:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> i've worked a lot of jobs and not a damned one would i continue to do if not paid well for it.
[08:18:56] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, Lots of people want more land, or a bigger house, or more stuff. Plenty of people work even if they're not starving.
[08:19:01] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Septic workers will get paid more than today's actors.
[08:19:08] <Subsentient> As it always should have been.
[08:19:26] <prospectacle> TheMighyBuzzard, yes you wouldn't work if you weren't paid well, but that's different to "I wouldn't work unless I was starving"
[08:19:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, because people want things. if they can have them without work, they will not work. over 90% of them. guaranteed.
[08:19:44] <Subsentient> Well sure.
[08:19:49] <Subsentient> So don't give them everything.
[08:19:56] <Subsentient> GIve them a small roof and some ramen.
[08:20:00] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard. What they can have without work is limited. If they want more they work. Most peopel want more than the bare necessities.
[08:20:03] <Subsentient> Everything else you need to work for.
[08:20:09] <Subsentient> Remember there can be no charity.
[08:20:15] -!- JamesNZ [JamesNZ!~james@43-567-441-22.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #Soylent
[08:20:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> see i have a different solution to that
[08:20:16] <Subsentient> Non-transferrable
[08:20:19] <Subsentient> JamesNZ: hi
[08:20:22] <SirFinkus> people like cable and nice cars
[08:20:25] <JamesNZ> \o Subsentient
[08:20:33] <Subsentient> We're discussing the merits of socialism vs capitalism.
[08:20:44] <Subsentient> I am on the side of variable-income non-tranferrable quota currency.
[08:20:54] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, If you're just giving people land credits, it's not like everyone cna live in a mansion with a sports car. They need to trade with others if they want more.
[08:21:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> offer a barely liveable wage to anyone who wants it without any work necessary. and revoke their right to vote if they take it.
[08:21:18] <JamesNZ> Subsentient: Cool :)
[08:21:19] <Subsentient> $chanctl invite JamesNZ #derp
[08:21:19] <aqu4> Ok.
[08:21:39] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - iOS 7 Update Silently Removes Encryption - http://sylnt.us - security-doesn't-have-rounded-corners
[08:22:47] <Subsentient> Nobody told xlefay that deadpeas is not a hexadecimal value I suppose.
[08:22:51] <prospectacle> I don't know universal adult suffrage seems to have worked out better than the alternatives. In terms of govt decision making.
[08:23:00] <prospectacle> So far it's still very flawed. But better than alternatives.
[08:24:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, not especially but the ones who would take that deal are the leeching, unenlightened self-interest kind you DO NOT want making important decisions.
[08:24:44] <Subsentient> Can we all just agree on digital direct democracy!
[08:24:58] <SirFinkus> no
[08:25:02] <prospectacle> Depends where the money comes from. If you consider a govt is owned by the citizens in the first place. Then each citizen getting an equal share of something the govt itself produces (e.g. money), is not leeching. It's just a dividend to a shareholder.
[08:25:04] <Subsentient> I want to hurry up and found the Unified Rodent Representative Direct Democracy (URRDD)
[08:25:10] <SirFinkus> direct democracy is shit
[08:25:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> hell no, iTyranny?
[08:25:55] <JamesNZ> Pseudo-relevant quote: "Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner, liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote".
[08:25:56] <prospectacle> On the other hand, if citizens don't own their government, then who does?
[08:26:07] <prospectacle> And two well-armed wolves
[08:26:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> share of what? the government should not own anything of value.
[08:26:18] <Subsentient> JamesNZ: ++
[08:26:22] <Subsentient> JamesNZ++
[08:26:22] <deadpeas> karma - jamesnz: 1
[08:26:40] <Subsentient> The citizens should own the government in equal share.
[08:26:51] <Subsentient> Private property will be sacred but the government itself
[08:26:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya but that and a buck n change will get you a coke
[08:27:06] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, they do, though. Should or not.
[08:27:07] <Subsentient> property of Bill Jackson and his wife Milga.
[08:27:34] <prospectacle> The govt owns the exclusive right to mint currency, and levy taxes.
[08:27:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, they own squat that they haven't paid for with money stolen from us.
[08:27:57] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, they make the money in the first place.
[08:28:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, not always so. that's recent.
[08:28:27] <prospectacle> But right now they do, in virtually every country.
[08:29:13] <prospectacle> So the exlusive right to mint money and put it in circulation is something they own, by law.
[08:29:14] <Subsentient> Government needs to have it's model of purpose inverted. e.g. when someone says 'Congress is supposed to work for US!' that statement will carry strong, undisputable truth.
[08:29:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes, and see what a wonderful job they've done with that.
[08:29:34] <prospectacle> I don't see how each citizen having an equal share of this, is leeching. If citizens own the govt and the govt owns the right to print money.
[08:29:50] <prospectacle> It's just a dividend of something the govt produces, being given to its shareholders
[08:29:53] <Subsentient> Or just. you know, quota.
[08:30:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, you really, really do not understand what money is, do you?
[08:30:05] <prospectacle> Subsentient, yes it's just a different kind of quota
[08:30:12] <Subsentient> A more evilly kind.
[08:30:51] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, it's a promissory note
[08:31:01] <prospectacle> or representation of same
[08:31:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> promissory of what?
[08:31:41] <prospectacle> it varies. At the moment it promises you won't be punished for not paying your taxes, if you give it back in the required amount.
[08:31:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> unless it's based on something, the promise is of rainbow gold and fairy farts.
[08:32:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> like ours
[08:32:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> it would be absolutely worthless if we did not continue to pretend it isn't
[08:32:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> it is literally based on not a damned thing.
[08:32:51] <Subsentient> Indeed
[08:32:58] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard it has worth as long as people are required to use it to pay taxes.
[08:32:59] <Subsentient> Like bitcoin
[08:33:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> eh, mostly yeah
[08:33:15] <Subsentient> I think bitcoin is a very negative development.
[08:33:25] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, but it can be based on many things. Land-usage rights being one of them.
[08:33:31] <Subsentient> It globally institutionalizes money.
[08:33:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> here's what money truly is: it is temporally portable work.
[08:33:40] <Subsentient> That's about as destructive as you get.
[08:34:06] <prospectacle> Since the govt decides how land can be used, they can use those rights as the basis for money, if they want.
[08:34:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> you do work at one point and can reap the benefits whenever is most convenient to you
[08:34:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> nothing that did not require work has any value.
[08:34:49] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, that's one application of money.
[08:34:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> that is the ONLY application of money
[08:35:21] <prospectacle> Money can be applied to all kinds of goods and services (work)
[08:35:31] <prospectacle> some people are born owning things, they didn't work for them, but they have value.
[08:35:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> someone worked for them
[08:35:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> and distributed the fruits of that work as they saw fit, as is their right.
[08:36:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> ponder it a while. it's a big concept.
[08:36:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> lot of ramifications.
[08:37:44] <prospectacle> In that case though anything is work. I mean a hunter-gatherer drinking water from a nearby stream must be "work", since nobody built the stream or paid for it.
[08:38:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> eh, you could look at it that way but he had to hoof it to the stream
[08:38:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> mostly it applies to money though.
[08:38:38] <prospectacle> Yeah which might be right next to his house.
[08:38:42] <prospectacle> Probably is.
[08:38:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> could be, which would mean water had little value to him
[08:39:19] <prospectacle> Little trade value, probably, but just as necessary to life and health as it is to everyone else.
[08:39:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> guy in the desert, probably trade dearly for some though
[08:39:24] <prospectacle> so still very valuable in that sense.
[08:40:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep, value can be quite situational
[08:40:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> and yes, situational is a fucking word, spellcheck
[08:40:30] <prospectacle> Yes the guy in the desert probably would trade a lot for it. If he knew how to get to the stream he might even walk all tehw ay tehre himself, onyl to find it was controlled and defened by the people who were born there.
[08:41:04] <prospectacle> In fact whoever was born at the stream could ask whatever price he wanted from the thirsty guy who came to visit. If the thirsty guy had no other choice.
[08:41:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep
[08:41:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> and that is fair
[08:41:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> nobody told his ass he had to live in the desert
[08:41:43] <prospectacle> Maybe he was born in the desert
[08:42:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> if he knows where a stream is, he certainly isn't stuck there though
[08:42:19] <prospectacle> Now he gives all his money to the guy who owns the stream. What work did that guy who owns the stream do?
[08:42:48] * Subsentient has visions of tall, white metal buildings with large rooms yet no echo, forming a glorious city on the backside of a terraformed geothermally sufficient moon of saturn
[08:43:10] <prospectacle> subsentient, sounds nice. you could write a sci fi set there.
[08:43:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> that bastard? essentially traded his not killing the guy for whatever he paid.
[08:43:37] <prospectacle> In my opinion that's not a very useful definition of "work".
[08:43:44] <prospectacle> "Not killing the guy"
[08:43:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> works for the mob
[08:43:56] <Subsentient> lol
[08:44:06] <prospectacle> sure does
[08:44:09] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Yeah that made me think 'guy's a prick'
[08:44:24] <prospectacle> and it makes a lot of money. But that just suggest to me that money isnt' really "work" in any meaningful sense.
[08:44:38] <Subsentient> You don't kill someone for wanting a drink of your massive replenish-selfing stream.
[08:44:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> but you're also assuming the thirsty guy is so bloody stupid that he can find no other source of water.
[08:44:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> and stupidity should always be taxed.
[08:45:12] <Subsentient> sometimes there IS no other source
[08:45:17] <Subsentient> especially in the desert
[08:45:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> Subsentient, it's been done before.
[08:45:31] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Yeah.
[08:45:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> range wars in the 1800s for instance
[08:45:48] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, not having another soruce of what is not the same as being stupid. Maybe the whole stream already has people guarding it. People who've lived there for generations.
[08:45:52] <Subsentient> Those who execute the innocent should be executed as criminals.
[08:46:11] <prospectacle> s/what/water/
[08:46:11] <SedBot> <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, not having another soruce of water is not the same as being stupid. Maybe the whole stream already has people guarding it. People who've lived there for generations.
[08:46:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, and? guarding it is work.
[08:47:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> Subsentient, that's another matter entirely. prospectacle is trying to inject ethics into something that has and needs none.
[08:47:04] <prospectacle> Not if they already live there and outnumber visitors. It's the "not killing people" kind of work
[08:47:13] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Everything needs ethics.
[08:47:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> money absolutely does not. trying to touch it with ethics is evil, always.
[08:47:59] <Subsentient> No, money is evil and it corrupts everything it touches.
[08:48:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> money is nothing but work you have done. it is not evil.
[08:48:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> the desire for what you have not earned is what is evil.
[08:48:35] <JamesNZ> Subsentient: No, money can be used for humanitarian purposes.
[08:48:35] <Subsentient> The idea of money is evil
[08:48:41] <arti> :|
[08:49:00] <JamesNZ> Subsentient: You need money to get resources, whether the resources are for evil purposes or not is irrelevant.
[08:49:03] <Subsentient> JamesNZ: And I have to always explain that if the world were kinder then nobody would ask for money to help someone else in dire need.
[08:49:07] <JamesNZ> Money in itself isn't evil.
[08:49:27] <Subsentient> It's evil because it encourages greed and self-interest magnification
[08:49:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> Subsentient, it most certainly does not.
[08:49:39] <JamesNZ> Subsentient: That totally depends on the person.
[08:49:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> Subsentient, see above regarding "what you have not earned"
[08:50:01] <JamesNZ> Subsentient: *Greed* is evil, yes, money in itself, no.
[08:50:11] <Subsentient> JamesNZ: 99% of greed comes from evil.
[08:50:17] <Subsentient> s/evil/money/
[08:50:17] <SedBot> <Subsentient> JamesNZ: 99% of greed comes from money.
[08:50:27] * Subsentient is fucking tired
[08:50:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> Subsentient, greed comes from humans. money just sits there.
[08:50:52] <JamesNZ> Agreed^
[08:51:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> now humans, call them evil all you like. most are.
[08:51:22] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Semantics. The point is that capitalism encourages self advancement at the cost of others and inhibits charity by promoting self-interest thought.
[08:51:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> Subsentient, it most certainly does not
[08:51:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> capitalism encourages nothing but self advancement via your mind and back.
[08:52:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> greed takes care of the rest.
[08:52:20] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Competition is evil friend. Nobody should celebrate when their competitor goes bankrupt and all those folks lose their jobs or get absorbed by another company and then get fired or demoted.
[08:52:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> competition is the highest good.
[08:52:41] <Subsentient> Cooperation is the highest good.
[08:52:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> it sorts failure from usefulness
[08:52:50] <JamesNZ> Subsentient: Yes, but look the browser wars
[08:53:04] <JamesNZ> Subsentient: FF completely changed the game for the better by competing with IE.
[08:53:10] <JamesNZ> Competition is *good*.
[08:53:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> Subsentient, when a competitor goes bankrupt, competition is lessened
[08:53:18] <Subsentient> JamesNZ: And how much better would it be if a committee had assembled to work towards the supreme, glorious browser.
[08:53:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> thus good is lessened
[08:53:39] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: and people suffer as a result. When a lion devours it's prey, the competition is ended.
[08:53:42] <JamesNZ> Subsentient: Given the diversity of peoples' tastes, good luck with that :P
[08:53:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> that made no sense
[08:53:58] <JamesNZ> Just look at Linux distros.
[08:54:04] <Subsentient> It made perfect sense, because it's what you implied.
[08:54:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> you're not listening then
[08:54:42] <Subsentient> Greed must be destroyed, with antimatter weapons dropped into it's foul pit and then run like hell.
[08:54:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> i said competition is good. if you think i said removing competition is good, you were not listening.
[08:55:02] <Subsentient> I said competition is evil, and cooperation is the highest good.
[08:55:19] <Subsentient> I guess I'm the Vorlon in this argument.
[08:55:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> it is not. it relies on entirely changing human nature and is therefore folly
[08:55:21] <JamesNZ> Subsentient: Getting rid of monetary greed by removing money is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
[08:55:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> no poetry, please
[08:55:34] <JamesNZ> Subsentient: Unless you have a better economic model to replace it.
[08:55:49] <Subsentient> JamesNZ: The quota system can address most of the functions of money while inhibiting greed.
[08:56:13] <JamesNZ> Subsentient: The communistic-type quotas?
[08:56:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> seriously, any time your political ideal relies on a fundamental change of human nature, you need to drop that ideal.
[08:56:28] <Subsentient> JamesNZ: Yes, but not quite as you Imagine me thinks
[08:56:44] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: They don't. Pure communism failed for that very reason.
[08:56:46] <JamesNZ> Subsentient: Ok, I hoped not :P
[08:56:46] <Subsentient> People SUCK.
[08:56:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> a) it will never happen b) it will be attempted but will only lead to extreme tyranny.
[08:57:38] <Subsentient> I don't imagine a perfect world, I imagine a better world that can be created by forcing an issue.
[08:57:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes, yes they do
[08:57:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> there we go, there's the crux
[08:57:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> force
[08:57:56] <Subsentient> People will probably still suck just as much
[08:58:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> thus tyranny
[08:58:07] <Subsentient> but if we remove the primary medium for greed, things improve.
[08:58:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, they don't
[08:58:16] <Subsentient> No, not like that.
[08:58:18] <JamesNZ> Greed is not limited to money.
[08:58:24] <Subsentient> Of course not
[08:58:29] <Subsentient> but mostly concentrated there
[08:58:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> no
[08:58:36] <Subsentient> Yes.
[08:58:39] -!- prospectacle has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[08:58:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> greed is rarely about money
[08:58:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> mostly it is about anything that someone has that is better than what you have
[08:59:00] <Subsentient> Greed is about money getting you all sorts of flatscreens and cars and shit
[08:59:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> wife, car, blah blah blah
[08:59:12] <Subsentient> yeh
[08:59:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can not end it. you can not even curtail it.
[08:59:28] <JamesNZ> Meh, I think most greedy people are motivated by power at the root. And money gives power...
[08:59:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> it is part of being human.
[08:59:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep
[08:59:45] <Subsentient> the idea is, not to remove your ability to get those things, but reformat the mechanism to make it more difficult to do this via money.\
[09:00:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> they largely want the power to bend others to their will, like Subsentient is suggesting.
[09:00:05] <JamesNZ> People are clever bastards, they'll find a way to break the system.
[09:00:16] <Subsentient> Sure they will. So stay ahead of them.
[09:00:27] <Subsentient> It might not last forever, Rome fell, but, you know, we gotta try
[09:00:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can't except by starving them
[09:00:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> all of them
[09:00:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> except your soldiers of course
[09:01:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> they have to be well fed to kill dissenters.
[09:01:09] <Subsentient> If everyone hates the system I'd leave office and let them storm the place.
[09:01:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> good man.
[09:01:23] <JamesNZ> No, that would lead to anarchy.
[09:01:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> anarchy is preferable to tyranny
[09:01:41] <JamesNZ> If you have to leave, leave responsibly.
[09:01:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> it never lasts too long anyway. it's astable.
[09:01:51] <Subsentient> If everyone likes it except a minority of capitalistic assholes, they can suck it. And by suck it I mean not get their way.
[09:02:14] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Indeed. Even Somalia has a semi-stable government, but it's power is questionable.
[09:02:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> Subsentient, which is why if you gotta go socialist, you make it voluntary.
[09:02:53] <JamesNZ> I've never seen socialism implemented successfully.
[09:03:02] <JamesNZ> Capitalism on the other hand...
[09:03:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> i have, on the small scale
[09:03:17] <JamesNZ> But is it scalable?
[09:03:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> i've never seen capitalism without corruption on a large scale either.
[09:03:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> i mean look at the US, that's barely recognizable as used to having been capitalism anymore.
[09:03:49] <JamesNZ> True, but from what I've seen more people get more money with capitalism.
[09:04:08] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Indeed
[09:04:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> they live better lives, yep. everyone has to put more effort into things in capitalism and effort = work = wealth.
[09:04:45] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: My idea is this, quota system for everybody, government can't produce transferrable currency, but, if you wanna start printing your own evil-coupons etc. go ahead.
[09:04:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> which is why our poor folks have flatscreen tvs and iphones
[09:04:56] <Subsentient> Trade with stuff you got via quota is fine
[09:05:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> Subsentient, i'd say just divide the country and say you have five years then the left half is going socialist.
[09:06:06] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Not sure I understand
[09:06:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> that's voluntary enough since the left half seems to mostly want it already
[09:06:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> left = west in that case
[09:06:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> physical divide into socialist and capitalist. still plenty of room for everybody.
[09:06:58] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Well, I am a strong champion for freedom, but we can't allow poverty or greed to beat us again, so socialism for everybody with a side of capitalism if you cook it yourself. :^)
[09:07:35] <JamesNZ> I don't think socialism is immune from greed?
[09:07:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, you gotta let people do their own thing. they ain't gotta do it in your hard though.
[09:07:40] <Subsentient> Sure it's not
[09:07:44] <Subsentient> a lot harder though
[09:07:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> s/hard/yard/
[09:07:51] <SedBot> <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, you gotta let people do their own thing. they ain't gotta do it in your yard though.
[09:08:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> so you be socialists over in cali and such, we'll be money-grubbing capitalists over on the east side.
[09:08:52] <Subsentient> I actually imagine the inverse more likely
[09:08:57] <JamesNZ> I don't think it'll be that clear cut :P
[09:08:58] <Subsentient> california folks are assholes
[09:09:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> true, they keep wanting to push socialism on me
[09:09:20] <Subsentient> That's san francisco.
[09:09:34] <Subsentient> LA is full of folks who won't help you with a flat.
[09:09:41] <arti> i'd probably say it's more fascism coming out of san fran
[09:09:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> so is nyc
[09:09:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> arti, fuck yes
[09:10:12] <Subsentient> Hitler was also socialist, as well as fascist
[09:10:25] <Subsentient> Fun fact hour with Subsentient
[09:10:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> he was kinda a crappy socialist though
[09:10:40] <Subsentient> yeah but a good fascist
[09:10:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> made a damned fine car though
[09:10:50] <JamesNZ> Hitler actually did a pretty good job of bringing back Germany.
[09:10:56] <arti> Subsentient: to get help changing a flat, have a pretty figure and boobs
[09:11:13] <Subsentient> arti: Indeed
[09:11:23] <arti> otherwise, you call AAA for that if you're unable to do it yourself
[09:11:32] <Subsentient> I'll get the cantalopes and put a belt around my gut.
[09:11:36] <arti> hahaha
[09:12:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> man, easier to just change the tire.
[09:12:33] <Subsentient> You ever live somewhere hot?
[09:12:34] <arti> depends, if it's raining or not :P
[09:12:39] <Subsentient> I live near Phoenix.
[09:12:51] <Subsentient> It's 105-115F for 270 days a year here.
[09:12:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> Subsentient, year before last we didn't drop below 100 even at night for 3-4 weeks
[09:13:12] <arti> sounds like spooning weather
[09:13:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> least yall got cooler nights
[09:13:26] <Subsentient> sometimes
[09:13:41] <Subsentient> Sometimes I go out and it's 85 at night
[09:13:52] <Subsentient> 3 AM
[09:14:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> 85 woulda been niiiiice when it was 103 at 3am
[09:14:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> fuckin trees n grass hold heat like a boss
[09:14:37] <Subsentient> TheMightyBuzzard: Where do you live? On a sheet of sandpaper?
[09:14:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> oklahoma
[09:14:52] <Subsentient> omfg
[09:14:59] <Subsentient> That's insane
[09:15:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, texas was cooler than we were
[09:15:26] <Subsentient> We get so hot they ground jets
[09:15:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> was some sick shit that nobody remotely appreciated
[09:15:54] <arti> perfect roofing weather
[09:15:57] * arti readies the hot mop
[09:16:11] <Subsentient> This year looks like it will be fairly nice for everyone.
[09:16:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> we hit the 1-teens every year mostly but only for 4-6 months.
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[09:16:40] <Subsentient> You must live in the hottest place in OK
[09:16:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> been nice this year. still haven't hit 90 yet
[09:16:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, whole state was that way
[09:16:55] <Subsentient> We hit 100 in March
[09:17:07] <Subsentient> Dropped back down tho
[09:17:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, sand heads up quicker and loses heat quicker.
[09:17:21] <Subsentient> It was ok today
[09:17:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> trees and grass absorb n hold that stuff.
[09:17:52] <Subsentient> we actually got a good bit of green
[09:17:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> so we don't get cool nights when it's blazing in the day.
[09:18:01] <Subsentient> people imported weird plants from everywhere
[09:18:06] <Subsentient> allergy capital usa
[09:18:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, saw some of that out in amarillo the other week. silly people.
[09:18:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> we're green as a rule though rather than an exception.
[09:19:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's damned weird too. like 2mi inside the tx panhandle it goes from green to brown that fast.
[09:19:51] <Subsentient> lol
[09:20:10] <Subsentient> yeh we got a big beautiful sweet green tree here
[09:20:20] <Subsentient> spherical
[09:20:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> funky
[09:20:28] <Subsentient> looks like someone pulled it out of lion king
[09:20:37] <Subsentient> But we love this tree
[09:21:00] <Subsentient> it shades us in summer, and makes it snow leaves in fall, and then grows them all back in 12 seconds.
[09:21:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> trees... something was bugging me about trees.
[09:21:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> heh
[09:22:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh ya, carbon credits. those fuckers need to knock off selling green unless they're actually planting trees that aren't for cutting.
[09:22:27] <Subsentient> yeah
[09:23:34] <Subsentient> But seriously they all grew back so fast I didn't notice it
[09:23:58] <Subsentient> it was insane
[09:24:07] <Subsentient> That's Arizona for you
[09:24:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> should visit the southeast. kudzu can grow up to a foot a day.
[09:24:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> kinda pretty too except for the part where it kills everything it grows on
[09:24:56] <Subsentient> so I could just put my hand on top of it and watch it get absorbed by the plant?
[09:25:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> over a couple hours, yeah.
[09:25:44] <Subsentient> lol
[09:25:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's like the ultimate bachelor plant
[09:26:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> damn, here i am awake at 2:30 again
[09:27:32] <arti> for the glory of greed of course!
[09:28:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm thinking it was for the glory of that pot of coffee i drank a couple hours ago.
[09:29:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh well, i'll get 3 hours and then back at it.
[09:29:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> nite
[09:30:48] <arti> catch you later :)
[09:32:48] <Subsentient> afk
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[09:50:45] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Advice to Graduates: No Selfies - http://sylnt.us - official-graduation-photos-only-$199
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[12:20:37] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Printing Teddy Bears - http://sylnt.us - MUPPET-ARMY
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[13:21:23] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Help EFF Test Privacy Badger; New Tool to Stop Creepy Online Tracking - http://sylnt.us - sending-trackers-on-an-off-track-trek
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[14:01:53] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Call for Mathematicians to Refuse NSA/GCHQ - http://sylnt.us - Take-your-sphere-and-go-home.
[14:50:30] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Apple won patent battle against Samsung with 119M$ - http://sylnt.us - Virtual-Trench-Warfare
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[15:05:24] <michealpwalls> 'morning, everyone :)
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[15:35:35] <michealpwalls> Good morning, everybody! :)
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[15:38:40] <prospectacle> Good evening, all
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[15:40:26] <prospectacle> MrBluze if you're around I've all the important procedures working. You can detect a message really is for you. Then you can tell if it's really from the recipient. And it can prepare messages of the required format.
[15:40:53] <prospectacle> I'll make a simple gui tomorrow and if you're around we could test it to send a real live message.
[15:40:56] <janrinok> Hi guys
[15:41:11] <prospectacle> hi janrinok
[15:41:32] <janrinok> hi prospectacle how's things with you?
[15:42:19] <prospectacle> good thanks. Thinking of heading off to sleep soon. What's happening in your world?
[15:42:32] <michealpwalls> Whatcha making, prospectacle?
[15:42:41] <janrinok> Just finished some work in the garden, and now I'm on here!
[15:43:25] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, a system for sending a message in such a way you can verify it's from somone you trust (someone you've given your public key to), and that it's from a specific person on your contacts list.
[15:43:44] <janrinok> that could be useful
[15:43:48] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, in such a way that only a recipient ID needs to be specified publicly (and in future versions not even that).
[15:44:01] <janrinok> very useful
[15:44:55] <prospectacle> So you get a mesage, and you check it's really for you, by decrpyting it, then checking the checksum that's on the end of it.
[15:45:16] <prospectacle> If so, you go through each of your contacts in your contact list, and try to decrypt the inner layer using their public key. Again you use the checksum to make sure it worked.
[15:45:34] <prospectacle> If so, then you know it's from them, for you. The original message text can be public and put up anywhere, as only you can properly decode it.
[15:45:43] <michealpwalls> Hrmm!
[15:45:55] <michealpwalls> I heard of a system like that once...
[15:46:23] <michealpwalls> I'm not sure who developed it, but it was a mailing list in which everysingle message was encrypted... Yo ucould only read the messages intended for your group 'cause it was the only ones you could decrypt
[15:46:36] <michealpwalls> Good idea!
[15:46:47] <prospectacle> It's turned out to be pretty basic really. Probably most of it isn't original, but it's been a fun exercise. MrBluze and I figured out the details in here over the last few days
[15:46:58] <janrinok> somebody will make it illegal then....
[15:47:13] <prospectacle> lol
[15:47:21] <michealpwalls> You know, I really think *everything* should be encrypted.. Even if it's simple encryption, it *exponentialy* raises the bar. The information drowns in noise
[15:47:29] <janrinok> can't have people talking to each other without the man knowing what is being said.
[15:47:44] <prospectacle> well it's just openssl + hash really. No part of it is really new. Just trying to make it work smoothly and clearly.
[15:48:15] <prospectacle> If "the man" really wants it he can just subpoena your computer, as always.
[15:48:46] <prospectacle> trick is to keep out spammers and eavesdroppers
[15:48:54] <janrinok> ...from my cold dead hands lol
[15:49:20] <prospectacle> so you can discuss business or financial things with confidence, no matter where you (or they) are, and also you won't get spam on this system.
[15:52:15] <prospectacle> also you can post the message wherever, like irc or pastebin or whatever.
[15:53:14] <prospectacle> so what are you guys up to?
[15:53:27] <prospectacle> is the garden looking nice, janrinok?
[15:54:17] <janrinok> No - unfortunately I've got a problem with my right kneww - waiting for x-rays - and I cannot kneel to get at those pesky weeds!
[15:54:29] <janrinok> s/kneww/knee/
[15:54:29] <SedBot> <janrinok> No - unfortunately I've got a problem with my right knee - waiting for x-rays - and I cannot kneel to get at those pesky weeds!
[15:55:02] <prospectacle> oh, stupid weeds. hope it works out well with the knee.
[15:55:06] <janrinok> thank you sebot - I like being polite to bots...
[15:55:09] <janrinok> thx
[15:55:16] <prospectacle> Maybe you can build a robot weeding servant.
[15:55:31] <janrinok> if only....
[15:55:34] <prospectacle> I'll buy one if they're < $1000 and work
[15:56:08] <prospectacle> can't be that hard, you just need 3d vision, mobility, navigation, weed recognition, gripping, garbage disposal.
[15:56:21] <prospectacle> You can probably have it whipped up by the time you get the x-rays back
[15:56:41] <janrinok> and for less than the cost of the x-rays, I'll bet!
[15:56:56] <janrinok> not that I pay for them, but you know what I mean...
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[16:04:47] <prospectacle> stupid internet
[16:05:29] <prospectacle> well, probably should head off anyway. Take care
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[16:05:45] <janrinok> take care - perhaps cu l8r?
[16:25:37] <michealpwalls> I need a way to protect an Arduino... From a 5 year old boy when the Arduino is put into a teddy-bear.
[16:26:10] <michealpwalls> Any ideas? I tried to cut up a 2L plastic soda bottle but then I couldn't get it to stick to the Arduino
[16:26:25] <michealpwalls> Maybe I should try that some more, I made a lot of progress ^
[16:27:20] <michealpwalls> It's mainly pressure from top -> down that it needs protection from.. So the plastic pre-formed in a semi-circle seemed to be a perfect fit. The semi-circle shape provides all the protection from downward pressure it needs
[16:28:11] <michealpwalls> But, like I said.. I tried taping the plastic on to the Arduino's sides (Very small surface area..) but that was a silly idea. Short of melting the plastic to the Arduino's PCB, I'm not sure what to do?
[16:43:57] <janrinok> michealpwalls: try a plastic food container. They are remarkably strong for their size and a bit of duct tape will hold it closed against small fingers.
[16:45:03] <janrinok> Just stick the arduino inside with a glue gun if you want a more permanent fit.
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[16:47:12] <Cyprus> so for the record
[16:47:15] <Cyprus> fuck Firefox 29
[16:59:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> ^
[17:00:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, hot glue good, epoxy epic.
[17:01:19] <janrinok|afk> Cyprus: any particular reason?
[17:01:31] <Cyprus> have you tried it?
[17:01:45] <janrinok|afk> No - and it doesn't sound like I want to
[17:02:07] <Cyprus> they stoped pussying around and made it chromeui
[17:02:15] <Cyprus> with no alternative option short of addons
[17:02:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> main beef is they took out a LOT of customization options. now you have to install extensions that could go unmaintained at any time.
[17:02:48] <Cyprus> it took me 4 addons and like 30 minutes to get back to something resembling what i had. No warning, etc
[17:02:48] <janrinok|afk> I'm still with FF20.0.1 because that is the last time I liked what I had and they hadn't got round to breaking it!
[17:03:01] <Cyprus> the bug reports are basically responses along the lines of fuck you learn to like it
[17:03:25] <janrinok|afk> Ah the Unity / Gnome 3 school of customer care.
[17:03:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> zactly
[17:04:33] <janrinok|afk> best get back to being afk....
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[17:05:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> Cyprus, you can get most of the options back with just classic theme restorer
[17:05:42] <Cyprus> its not the same
[17:05:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, just as close as you can get.
[17:05:54] <Cyprus> plus it loses any customization you had at the time
[17:05:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep
[17:06:26] <Cyprus> why even offer the ability to do customization if you arbitrarily remove it randomly
[17:06:46] <Cyprus> especially through automatic updates with no warning or option to back up / restore / convert
[17:06:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> douchebags gotta douche.
[17:07:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> awe come on now. it's been on every tech news site for over a year.
[17:11:06] <Cyprus> i shouldn't have to read the news for the UI to not rape my existing settings unannounced via automatic update
[17:12:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's been ubiquitous though. the only way you could have missed it would be to have not used the internet for a year n change.
[17:12:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> they announced through their own channels and quite a few interviews on news sites/blogs.
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[17:19:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> what's really fun is classic theme restorer loses half my settings every time it updates.
[17:20:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> so every time I have to move things back to the addon bar and put the stop/reload button back where it belongs
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[17:35:13] <michealpwalls> janrinok|afk: Oh! Thanks that's a good idea that hadn't occurred to me. I've got all kinds of plastic food containers!
[17:35:45] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: Thanks! I can find some epoxy somewhere definately, would probs. be easier than hot glue 'cause I have no glue gun
[17:36:11] <michealpwalls> I can finally finish this project.. Singing Teddy Bear! (hifive)
[17:36:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> needs lasers too. burny ones.
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[17:38:01] <Ethanol-fueled> 'sup.
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[17:38:48] <michealpwalls> haha TheMightyBuzzard, I like the stop/reload button in the classic location too.. Thought I was the only one! :)
[17:39:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> no man, that's a deal breaker if i can't have it there.
[17:39:34] <michealpwalls> I hate the new "hip" and "with it" fad of moving the damned stop button in browsers.. Some to the *right* of the frigging address bar and some now embedded *in* the address bar. Drives me crazy
[17:39:57] <michealpwalls> My muscle memory always brings my cursor to the right of the address bar... And by the time I realize the opportunity to stop is too l ate.
[17:41:49] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - White House Asks Congress to Pass New Privacy Laws - http://sylnt.us - privacy-proposal-proffers-protection-passage-possible?
[17:42:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm seriously considering switching to iceweasel today
[17:46:41] <michealpwalls> Opera v20 has terrible (Read: Completely non-existent? :/) customization for that... Luckily the stop/reload button is to the left of the address bar though haha
[17:46:50] <michealpwalls> iceweasel is great
[17:47:05] <michealpwalls> Debian community is really awesome
[17:47:09] <boioioing|afk> is opera 20 the one that became a fork of chromiun?
[17:47:20] <michealpwalls> Yea
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[18:19:42] <swiss> free comic book day
[18:41:43] <michealpwalls> I never got into reading comics :/
[18:45:00] <michealpwalls> Is the Slashcode Template system based on this? http://www.template-toolkit.org
[18:49:23] <michealpwalls> Ohh nvm, found the answer (yes) ^
[19:20:52] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - MS Office Applications Barely Used by Employees - http://sylnt.us - most-employees-are-not-in-Office-most-of-the-day
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[19:57:48] <michealpwalls> I have decided I'm going to write down all my findings in my "adventures in Slashcode" in my SN Journal...
[19:58:24] <michealpwalls> I just hope it's not duplicating somebody elses writings...
[20:33:46] <arti> heh
[20:33:56] <arti> "day 27, i found what i was looking for."
[20:34:05] <arti> -- that's the last entry.
[20:37:05] <michealpwalls> LMAO
[20:50:19] <michealpwalls> After you post a journal.. Can you then edit it?
[20:50:21] <michealpwalls> hehe
[20:50:25] <michealpwalls> Or is it like comments? :/
[20:50:31] <arti> i would hope it's like the comments
[20:50:46] <arti> once it has been forged, it can only be unmade by a moderator
[20:50:53] <chromas> I think you can edit
[20:50:59] <xlefay> You can edit journal entries after you've posted them.
[20:51:00] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Inside Facebook's Brilliant Plan to Hog Your Data - http://sylnt.us - honest-they-won't-share-it
[20:51:34] <michealpwalls> Oh sweet!
[20:51:37] <michealpwalls> :)
[20:51:57] <michealpwalls> 'cause I haven't even really gotten to the parsing part (rofl)
[20:52:25] <xlefay> michealpwalls: Good luck on your four+ month journey.
[20:52:34] <michealpwalls> haha
[20:52:49] * arti plays the song of his people
[20:53:12] <paulej72> tool tips are activated for the collapsable comment butons on dev. I did a bit of fine tuning of the css and fix a little issue with hide/show thread button that I did not like
[20:53:53] <arti> any way we can get one of those JS things that replaces the cursor with a circling whatever
[20:54:07] <arti> oh, and we need more glitter on the site. like myspace 2005 glitter stuff
[20:54:26] * arti writes the suggestions down in size 72pt font
[20:54:28] <paulej72> arti: make it look like the site is always loading something :)
[20:54:30] <chromas> How about changing the cursor to an animated shaking fist?
[20:54:32] <xlefay> God, you're starting to get me excited!
[20:54:43] <arti> chromas: hahaha
[20:55:10] <arti> paulej72: you'll say it's the next thing in AJAX
[20:55:30] <arti> "our site never finishes loading."
[20:55:47] <arti> software is never complete after all
[20:55:50] <chromas> Actually, that can replace the text mods. (-1, shakingfist.png [Get off my lawn!]); (+2, giggleface)
[20:56:00] <paulej72> add that to the April 1 todo list
[20:56:18] <arti> [ -100 Do. No. Want. ]
[20:56:25] <arti> s/No/Not/
[20:56:25] <SedBot> <arti> [ -100 Do. Not. Want. ]
[20:57:06] <chromas> arti: s/(.)/lol/g
[20:57:06] <SedBot> <chromas> <arti> lollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollol
[20:59:33] <paulej72> chromas: I have your transparent buttons on hold as I can’t get a specific button to come up when it is on the red title. The same code puts the buttons in place whether they are in the title or just on the background.
[21:00:33] <chromas> Didn't expect that. I just tested by Inspect Element-ing and editing the strings.
[21:00:33] <paulej72> chromas: is that a line of singers holding hannds high in the air?
[21:01:05] <chromas> Yes but secretly it's also binary
[21:01:13] <chromas> lolnary
[21:01:42] <boioioing|afk> I have a revolutionary idea: instead of a red theme, how about: orange?
[21:02:11] <arti> like a call to action orange?
[21:03:27] <boioioing|afk> on second thought I think the idea is too far ahead of its time
[21:03:53] <paulej72> clockwork orange?
[21:04:39] <paulej72> goes with soylent green very well :)
[21:10:33] <paulej72> i killed the conversation again :(
[21:11:06] <paulej72> do I smell or something :)
[21:11:15] <chromas> Well...
[21:11:22] <arti> ...like bacon
[21:13:44] <paulej72> speaking of bacon. I need to get some lunch. bbl
[21:14:17] <chromas> Okay, now that's he's gone...
[21:14:35] <arti> heh
[21:14:45] <chromas> ☺++
[21:14:53] <chromas> Aw
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[21:32:37] <michealpwalls> Think I'm done
[21:33:04] <michealpwalls> The Template system, anyways. Lots of information. I enabled comments, too... Just proof-reading before I submit.
[21:33:09] <arti> :D
[21:33:16] <michealpwalls> Then I'll do a journal about my adventures in Slash'd DB folder :)
[21:34:25] <arti> [ Coding Intensifies ]
[21:36:33] * xlefay ships 500 liters of brain bleech to michealpwalls's location
[21:37:46] <chromas> michealpwalls is about to go insane
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[22:30:15] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Virtual Periscope Sees Through Water's Surface - http://sylnt.us - well-fish-can-do-it
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