#Soylent | Logs for 2014-05-02

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[00:40:29] <paulej72> question for everyone. Do you use threaded or nested view on the site, and why. I am woking on comments and need feedback
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[00:51:56] <AndyTheAbsurd> At a quick look ,there doesn't appear to be a difference between threaded and nested. I was on "threaded", changed to "nested", it looked the same to me.
[00:51:57] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - NSA on Security Vulnerabilities Disclosure - http://sylnt.us - who's-henhouse-is-being-guarded?
[00:53:06] <paulej72> AndyTheAbsurd: http://soylentnews.org differnece is on long articles nested is paginated while threaded is not.
[00:54:56] <paulej72> I am looking to set the JS scripts we have to work with a view that has all the comments available and then the js just changes the mode
[00:55:41] * mrcoolbp dislikes pagination
[00:55:53] <AndyTheAbsurd> I'm on "threaded" and it's paginating - although with much bigger pages than "nested" shows.
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[00:56:57] <prospectacle> for shorter threads, nested seems to be effectively the same as threaded but with a lower threshold for displaying a message.
[00:57:23] <prospectacle> I prefer to see more messages (lower threshold) than the default, but not as many as "nested" shows
[01:00:08] <paulej72> prospectacle: threaded uses two thresholds one to hide the comment in a link and the other to set which ones are minimized. Nested only has the one threshold that sets when comments are hidden
[01:01:01] <prospectacle> paulej72, I see. Thanks
[01:02:05] <mrcoolbp> paulej72: for me the best option would be the combo we were speaking of, is Nested but with one threshold for minimized/vs/expanded
[01:02:25] <paulej72> I would love to set up a single threshold and have no pagination. This would allow for the js to work really well. on ./ I always wanted to just download all of the comments at once even if there were 1000
[01:02:48] <prospectacle> yes, pagination is not a good way to deal with having lots of comments, imo
[01:03:05] <paulej72> mrcoolbp: that is what I am leaning towards
[01:03:36] <prospectacle> also, "lots" isn't what it used to be
[01:03:36] <mrcoolbp> cool
[01:03:40] <paulej72> For the size of our site I think loading all of the comments is not an issue.
[01:03:45] <mrcoolbp> agreed
[01:04:10] <mrcoolbp> plus we have all that varnish magic on our end, and modern connections on client side
[01:04:27] <mrcoolbp> keeping an option that would prevent loading all would be sane though
[01:04:50] <prospectacle> even a thousand comments is, what, 300kb or something?
[01:05:04] <prospectacle> I assume the page is gzipped anyway
[01:05:07] <xlefay> For the JS stuff? Just load everything and override for JS users, either way, everything will work
[01:05:25] <xlefay> prospectacle: for thousands of comments, even without gzip, it'll be small (of course.. we're talking about regular SN comments)
[01:05:53] <prospectacle> yeah
[01:05:55] <paulej72> so Improved Threaded will have no pagination and single threshold for slecting the default minimixed level. I would tie the JS only to this option so people could fall back to the others if needed
[01:06:12] <prospectacle> so 300kb is generous. zipped it would be about 10-50kb
[01:08:10] <prospectacle> paulej72, sounds like that would be good to use
[01:10:28] <xlefay> paulej72: does our staff-slash get upgraded when prod gets upgraded?
[01:12:00] <paulej72> xlefay: tipically before as we use it as a test deploy for code. I did not update the staic pages on staff-slash as I was editing the pages directly rather than doing a deploy and I was testing on dev
[01:12:30] <xlefay> I see.
[01:13:26] <paulej72> xlefay: staff-slash is probably a bit out of date from production as we have pushed out a few cherry-picked updates that we deployed to production. I am not sure if they were tested on staff-slash
[01:14:11] <MrBluze> then why bother, that's what i say :)
[01:14:41] <MrBluze> staff slash can be the stable version of the site :) :) :)
[01:15:32] <xlefay> paulej72: I see, I gotta agree with bluze here hah
[01:15:33] <prospectacle> lts
[01:15:50] <MrBluze> we beta test on the public
[01:15:55] <prospectacle> by which i mean LTS
[01:16:01] <MrBluze> nice
[01:16:03] <xlefay> Staff-Slash LTS, main site: general release, dev = dev? ;')
[01:16:33] <mrcoolbp> the original idea was the other way around
[01:16:43] <mrcoolbp> dev -> staff -> prod
[01:16:52] <xlefay> mrcoolbp: yeah :P
[01:17:08] <mrcoolbp> so we were testing as we worked, but there hasn't been a ton of chatter
[01:17:14] <paulej72> staff-slah does have the new themes installed, while prod does not.
[01:17:15] <MrBluze> it was.. but in practice
[01:17:38] <MrBluze> well the lack of chatter is for several reasons
[01:17:40] <MrBluze> but yeah
[01:17:55] <mrcoolbp> MrBluze: like what?
[01:18:30] <MrBluze> people have been on hiatus
[01:18:34] <paulej72> there are probably a few new updates that were specifically targeted to producion bugs that are not on staff, but could be added quickly as a redeply can be done
[01:18:36] <MrBluze> and some things are happening despite the chatter
[01:18:39] <MrBluze> so..
[01:20:21] <MrBluze> paulej72: its all good.. but down the track we need to formalize the upgrade process so beta testing can occur in a way that doesn't interrupt the flow of the website
[01:20:53] <prospectacle> vagrant
[01:21:42] <MrBluze> who's a vagrant
[01:21:43] <xlefay> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[01:21:48] <xlefay> no, not who, what*
[01:21:50] <paulej72> i still like dev -> staff -> prod for the main QA route.
[01:22:18] <xlefay> MrBluze: it's awesome: http://www.vagrantup.com
[01:22:43] <MrBluze> paulej72: that is our point .. it should be that way
[01:23:09] <MrBluze> oh.. that vagrant
[01:23:16] <MrBluze> :)
[01:23:18] <paulej72> MrBluze: and for the most part it is.
[01:23:40] <mrcoolbp> these are just static files, no code
[01:23:42] <MrBluze> dev | qa -> staff | qa -> prod | qa
[01:23:53] <xlefay> It'll be more like, dev > QA-team > staff > QA-team > prod, once we've got proper QA guidelines and such set
[01:24:21] <MrBluze> mrcoolbp: i know, and for myself i'd say just go with it but in the end we need a more maintainable and elegant solution
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[01:25:15] <mrcoolbp> MrBluze: agreed, and in this case we did seek a bunch of review throughout the day, so I feel good about it
[01:25:26] <mrcoolbp> but it's a good point in general for the future and such
[01:26:22] <paulej72> plus NCommander and I had already broken the site earler in the day so we could do no worse?
[01:26:42] * mrcoolbp told you not to tempt fate like that pj72
[01:27:23] <paulej72> Also these changes had even less impact than updaing the site news slashbox which requires a restart of apache on the frontends
[01:27:25] <xlefay> mrcoolbp: I actually discussed with NCommander before, that he would schedule downtime ahead of time...
[01:27:58] <MrBluze> u could have broken staff instead, no one would have hardly noticed
[01:28:25] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: regarding what?
[01:29:01] <xlefay> mrcoolbp: pretty much anything that could make the main site go boom (in that specific case, we discussed it for the failover test and stuff)
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[01:29:14] <NCommander> xlefay, that wasn't what broke the site
[01:29:23] <xlefay> NCommander: what was it this time then?
[01:29:32] <xlefay> I'm quite honestly losing track
[01:29:39] <xlefay> Also, your new mail pw is @ PM
[01:30:17] <NCommander> xlefay, I reset neon to be a new master. WHat I didn't know (and is poorly explained in the mysql documentation) is the new GITD replication imposed limitations on queries involving MyISAM/InnoDB
[01:30:31] <xlefay> aah
[01:31:04] <NCommander> xlefay, yeah, the failover migration was fine. THe site was down for about 10 minutes due to unexpected hangups, but that was during the maintence window
[01:31:25] <xlefay> That's obviously not your fault; however, in the future I would caution you into trusting the MySQL docs. It's often reliably, to Google a bit regarding possible side effects, and crap.
[01:31:45] <paulej72> NCommander: I would say that is a change that could make the site go boom. Doing a configuation change on the single DB server that was up
[01:31:47] <NCommander> xlefay, we hit an edgecase here which isn't clear from Google
[01:32:11] <NCommander> paulej72, replication was tested, this was just flipping on a new mode, and I hadn't even enabled replication from neon
[01:33:06] <paulej72> NCommander: but wasn’t helium down at the time being upgraded to mysql 5.6?
[01:33:24] <xlefay> NCommander: you know, we're using MySQL, I wouldn't say it's an edge case, it's just an unexpected feature that came to be in the heat of the situation.
[01:33:31] <xlefay> It's MySQL, it's full of those. ;-)
[01:34:12] <xlefay> I bet it even has a RFG built in (random feature generator)
[01:35:19] <paulej72> this was another of thoes multiple things happened at once to cause the problem. If NCommander’s laptop would not have died when it did, he would have fixed the issue much quicker than I did acting as his keyboard and ssh interface :)
[01:35:26] <xlefay> NCommander: and did you read about the mail pw, that is what you were asking around, right?
[01:35:42] <xlefay> about earlier, right?*
[01:36:34] <NCommander> xlefay, I have it, thanks
[01:36:36] <xlefay> paulej72: our set up is getting more complicated and we shouldn't be relying on one person to know it all
[01:36:44] <xlefay> NCommander: ok making sure you weren't reading over it ;)
[01:36:49] <NCommander> xlefay, right now, we're only using neon, helium just LDAP/KRB master
[01:37:00] <NCommander> I'm too scared to resetup replication least I blow the site to bits again
[01:37:21] <MrBluze> cant u do that on the staff server?
[01:37:52] <xlefay> I was actually thinking about this.. and wouldn't it be neat, if we had a small dedicated server that could do some virtualization and we could just virtualize our entire set up there and test things out?
[01:38:59] <MrBluze> exactly
[01:39:06] <xlefay> Give it some thought and roll with it if you like, or don't, ugh I gotta get back to looking for a job.
[01:39:25] * MrBluze wishes xlefay lots of luck
[01:39:50] <xlefay> also.. apparently, connecting with virt-manager and having some inconsistent version numbers (server & client) makes all VM's shut off and fuck up
[01:40:23] <xlefay> fucking idiotic, I had a dozen or so VMs turning off and not wanting to restart.. till I finally realized virt-manager was the issue.. virsh FTW.
[01:40:43] <xlefay> Have a good one people. Take care now.
[01:41:19] <prospectacle> bye xlefay, good luck job hunting
[01:41:48] <xlefay> MrBluze: prospectacle: thanks
[01:41:54] <MrBluze> cheers
[01:43:34] <paulej72> does anyone have the link to the journal that one user posted with his expansion of the name list for the vote
[01:43:58] <xlefay> you mean, his explanations? Not sure, but I think the user was open4d or so
[01:44:06] <paulej72> We should do somting similar before we do the final round of the name vote
[01:44:33] <mrcoolbp> paulej72, once we have the names under our control, that's the plan
[01:44:38] <mrcoolbp> always has been
[01:44:43] <xlefay> hmm, perhaps, we could comment on his journal entry, then, he can edit his entry - and eventually, we can link to his entry, or copy it over? :)
[01:45:21] <prospectacle> http://soylentnews.org
[01:45:36] <paulej72> found it just now thanks everyone
[01:45:38] <prospectacle> Are there very many left of the shortlist that you don't yet own?
[01:45:53] <prospectacle> staff ^^^^
[01:45:59] <mrcoolbp> prospectacle: we're wrapping that stuff up as quick as possible
[01:46:13] <prospectacle> no doubt
[01:46:44] <prospectacle> just wondering if it's like 2 or 3 you can't get a hold of the person who owns them, or if it's most of them still causing problems. Anyway doesn't matter, it happens when it happens.
[01:48:26] <prospectacle> I hope something boring wins. Names should not be too interesting. Imagine if bill gates was called fuckbeta gates. He probably wouldn't have made it as far.
[01:49:00] <paulej72> OK time for me to get some food.
[01:49:03] <paulej72> bbl
[01:49:17] <prospectacle> later paulej72
[01:59:11] <mrcoolbp> prospectacle: it's complicated a bit, but not as you said, we are getting responses back from people, it's just a multi-step process
[02:00:18] <prospectacle> Fair enough. I'll just be patient. Last thing you need is users bugging you about it all the time
[02:01:18] <mrcoolbp> nah, no worries at all
[02:01:51] <mrcoolbp> I like the fact that we can stay in communication with everyone about this
[02:05:34] <prospectacle> Yes it's a good feature of the site. On a relate not, I'm glad you got a staff slash set up, and I was a strong advocate for doing so. Yet a side effect is it seems to have killed #staff
[02:06:29] <mrcoolbp> I don't think that's the case
[02:06:43] <mrcoolbp> it seems a lot of discussion has moved here actually
[02:07:00] <prospectacle> Yes true, which is pretty cool
[02:07:15] <mrcoolbp> agreed
[02:07:25] <prospectacle> one big happy family
[02:07:38] <NCommander> xlefay, we could do that with lxc and lithium
[02:07:42] <NCommander> IDEA!
[02:08:18] <prospectacle> virtualisation++
[02:08:18] <deadpeas> karma - virtualisation: 1
[02:08:20] <xlefay> :)
[02:09:43] -!- pbnjoe [pbnjoe!~pbnjoe@Soylent/Users/313/pbnjoe] has joined #Soylent
[02:19:54] mrcoolbp is now known as mrcoolbp|afk
[02:21:05] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Antibiotic-Resistant Superbug Arose in New York - http://sylnt.us - please-wash-hands-before-commenting
[02:24:38] <MrBluze> other things killed #staff
[02:24:42] <MrBluze> the website is a good idea
[02:24:45] <MrBluze> it shits all over email
[02:25:31] <prospectacle> Don't get me wrong I still think it was a good idea
[02:33:28] <SpallsHurgenson> oh, new feature idea: put a link to the submit story page (http://soylentnews.org/submit.pl) on the banner that appears when there are < 20 stories in queue.
[02:33:28] <SpallsHurgenson> Make it one step easier for people to submit a story when you're running low :)
[02:34:05] <paulej72> SpallsHurgenson: that is on my todo
[02:37:54] <SpallsHurgenson> yay :)
[02:38:11] <SpallsHurgenson> cater to my laziness! :)
[02:38:45] <prospectacle> Indeed. catering to laziness is the whole purpose of software, from time immemorial (or about 60 years, I guess)
[02:40:21] <MrBluze> its actually efficiency, not laziness
[02:40:41] <MrBluze> u work hard so u dont have to work hard
[02:40:47] <SpallsHurgenson> yyyeessss... I'm being EFFICIENT :)
[02:41:24] <prospectacle> well, tomato, tomahto
[02:41:32] <prospectacle> less effort for more reward
[02:42:47] * SpallsHurgenson wonders if this will work on certain others in his household "Go mow the lawn; stop being so lazy!" "I'm not being lazy, I am efficiently napping in my chair!"
[02:43:36] <prospectacle> lol, sounds about right
[02:43:56] <prospectacle> imagine a roomba mower. Death machine, they could call it.
[02:44:06] <prospectacle> now that's efficiency
[02:46:38] <SpallsHurgenson> wasn't that "The Lawnmower Man"? :)
[02:47:46] <prospectacle> damn movies, always stealing my best ideas before I have them
[02:49:20] <prospectacle> like one time i thought, maybe if i steal the time machine from that jerk marty mclfy and take this sports almanac back to when I was younger....
[02:50:03] <prospectacle> Then my friend is all 'hey have you seen this new movie, "Marty and the Doc's Time-Car", and I was like "Curses!"
[02:51:29] <SpallsHurgenson> yeah, but when that happens just have all the actors strip nude and film your version as a porno :)
[02:51:52] <prospectacle> that's your solution to everything
[02:52:04] <MrBluze> but it works
[02:52:05] <SpallsHurgenson> not /everything/
[02:52:10] <SpallsHurgenson> just most :)
[02:52:16] <prospectacle> I guess you can't argue with the results
[02:54:38] <SpallsHurgenson> you would make a lousy politician with that attitude, prospectacle. In government, you can ALWAYS argue with results :)
[02:55:50] <prospectacle> It's true, "Well things seem to be going well, I think my job here is done. You can vote for me if you want but I'll probably just coast for a while. Go to trade summits and hang out at the buffet"
[02:58:05] <MrBluze> i'd vote for u prospectacle
[02:58:26] <MrBluze> as long as u dont change anything
[02:58:41] <MrBluze> pass no laws, do nothing
[02:58:43] <MrBluze> perfect
[02:59:00] <prospectacle> Thanks, sounds like a fair deal
[02:59:01] <SpallsHurgenson> he'd be a very "efficient" politician :)
[02:59:33] <MrBluze> a granite effigy is difficult to corrupt
[03:00:59] <prospectacle> Can I take lobbyists money and then not do them any favours, but just put it all towards public service announcements. "Do you suffer from backpain? Try our new patented 'going for a walk every now and then' method. Proven to be cheaper than the leading brand of pain relief"
[03:01:23] <chromas> Yes
[03:01:30] <chromas> Also bribes
[03:01:32] <MrBluze> ice
[03:01:36] <chromas> Well, non-lobbying bribes
[03:01:40] <MrBluze> use bribes to help brides
[03:01:44] <MrBluze> sponsor weddings
[03:01:51] <MrBluze> and then get invaded, like libya did
[03:02:27] <prospectacle> bribes for brides day. Every may 10th
[03:02:58] <MrBluze> libya had a family starter bonus
[03:03:02] <MrBluze> i think it was around $100k
[03:03:05] <prospectacle> can pay for the rice, or confetti, which I assume is the most expensive part
[03:03:15] <MrBluze> to help u buy a house and get going
[03:03:29] <prospectacle> MrBluze, seriously? I would get married for 100k
[03:03:32] <MrBluze> yep
[03:03:47] <prospectacle> hell I'd do it for 90
[03:03:57] * SpallsHurgenson starts the bidding war
[03:03:59] <MrBluze> they had a very very high home ownership
[03:04:05] <MrBluze> nearly no debts on houses
[03:04:37] <MrBluze> i cant remembera ll the details but it was interesting to read prior to the invasion
[03:06:46] <MrBluze> .. also was very interesting to read saddam hussein's last speech
[03:07:14] <prospectacle> hmm, I've not read that one
[03:07:19] <MrBluze> hm.. and the heaven gate cult's website i downloaded before it was taken down way back when
[03:07:25] <MrBluze> that was VERY interesting
[03:07:38] <MrBluze> lots of animated gifs
[03:07:51] <MrBluze> star fields and shit .. a lot of dark purple on black
[03:07:56] <SpallsHurgenson> good taste in sneakers, those folk had
[03:08:16] <MrBluze> well i used that one at uni as an argument why bible based religion is bs.. no offense to anyone here
[03:08:23] <MrBluze> but they based everything on bible quotes
[03:09:16] <MrBluze> "but they quoted selectively" .. exactly, was my reply
[03:09:40] <prospectacle> yes everyone does
[03:09:46] <prospectacle> it's like nostradamus
[03:09:50] <MrBluze> yep
[03:09:59] <MrBluze> pick a million monkeys making predictions, and publish the correct ones
[03:10:53] <SpallsHurgenson> we have 7000 times that many monkeys now!
[03:10:59] <MrBluze> saddam's speech wasnt that amazing, he was all sentimental and teary
[03:11:15] <MrBluze> all about tucking in your kids to bed, living in peace, and sorry for what i did wrong
[03:11:44] <MrBluze> he was a corrupt old bastard that the americans bought and then dumped when he wasnt useful anymore
[03:11:58] <MrBluze> a lesson to other despots .. a lesson for ukraine lol
[03:13:32] <prospectacle> I think most of america too would agree with the suggestion to avoid dealing with the federal u.s. govt as much as possible.
[03:13:53] <MrBluze> yep
[03:14:07] <MrBluze> its like bad relations .. u just avoid them
[03:14:18] <MrBluze> and when they do the crocodile tears thing, keep avoiding them
[03:15:49] <MrBluze> ukraine's ultranationalist govt is guaranteed to be short-term and they will probably all get bumped off at some point
[03:16:07] <MrBluze> but for now they are somehow useful to someone
[03:16:24] <prospectacle> I think if everytime someone meant "U.S. federal government', they said that, instead of "America", then most of the world (including america) would agree with each other on the subject.
[03:16:35] <prospectacle> that's my recipe for world peace
[03:16:39] <MrBluze> well actually true
[03:16:42] <MrBluze> americans are nice people
[03:16:48] <MrBluze> very warm and friendly, by and large
[03:16:59] <MrBluze> especially if not from new york or somewhere like that
[03:17:07] <prospectacle> sure seems that way from the ones I've met.
[03:17:21] <MrBluze> yep, so kudos for that
[03:17:27] <MrBluze> much hope there is for them
[03:17:29] <SpallsHurgenson> New Yorkers are sweeties; they just like to appear as hard and rude :)
[03:17:50] <chromas> They like to talk about their 'pizza'
[03:17:53] <MrBluze> new york is corrupt so its not a very nice example of americanism
[03:18:11] <MrBluze> but basicaly the ordinary guy in the street . no problem
[03:18:31] <MrBluze> but the banksters and government staffers .. pffff
[03:18:50] <SpallsHurgenson> yeah, but that's true no matter what city or state or nation :)
[03:18:56] <prospectacle> Some people blame the american people for what their govt does overseas, but it's not so simple. Their voting system is shit, so the people dont' get the govt they deserve, or even want.
[03:18:56] <MrBluze> yep
[03:19:10] <MrBluze> lol speaking of voting systems *cough*
[03:19:29] <MrBluze> i agree with that prospectacle
[03:19:33] <MrBluze> same with russia vs. russians
[03:19:41] <prospectacle> well I'll bet dollars to donuts (that's an expression, right?) that our voting system (SN) will be better than americas within a year.
[03:19:46] <NCommander> SOmeone hit me with the hammer of leadership
[03:19:48] <MrBluze> russians are beautiful ppl.. hot blooded, great cooks, drink too much, but will help u if u are in trouble
[03:19:52] * NCommander is out
[03:20:14] <MrBluze> cheers NCommander
[03:20:20] <MrBluze> the voting system is a system
[03:20:27] <MrBluze> at lest it's happening
[03:20:35] <MrBluze> but yeah that's all i can say about it
[03:20:37] <prospectacle> bye NCommander. Hope your home hunting is going well
[03:20:54] <NCommander> prospectacle, it isn't
[03:21:09] <prospectacle> oh, well sorry for bringing it up. Do you have somehwere nice to stay at least while you hunt?
[03:21:11] <NCommander> Well, I have one promising lead, but this apartment search has put everything on hold, including my slashcode dev time
[03:21:25] <NCommander> prospectacle, hotel hopping; this area isn't cheap (tourist trap_
[03:21:30] <MrBluze> NCommander: i remember in 2009 u could buy a condo in florida for $10k
[03:21:43] <NCommander> MrBluze, ow, I could actually afford that
[03:21:45] <MrBluze> NCommander: the site is standing as it is
[03:21:47] * NCommander is just looking for an apartment
[03:21:54] <NCommander> MrBluze, that's because I haven't logged into the backend :-)
[03:21:58] <MrBluze> lol
[03:22:07] <MrBluze> if i had a hat, i'd take it off to u mate
[03:22:11] <MrBluze> dont worry
[03:22:16] <MrBluze> he who does no work, makes no mistakes
[03:22:22] <MrBluze> he who does a lot of work, makes a lot of mistakes
[03:22:32] <MrBluze> no one is angry about it
[03:23:05] <prospectacle> Yeah the site is great, it's fine, it will keep for a few days if you need to focus on other things
[03:23:43] <NCommander> prospectacle, well, a lot of the things addresses on a SN bash on pipedot are going to be addressed in the next major release
[03:24:02] * NCommander likes Lawerence Lessig forming a SUperPAC
[03:24:15] <MrBluze> but lets try not to use pipedot as our bug registry
[03:24:18] * MrBluze grins
[03:24:29] <prospectacle> Nice. But I mean, even if that's delayed a few days. It's no big deal. People aren't going to all disappear to PD suddenly and never check back again.
[03:24:37] <MrBluze> but i hope the name bug doesnt get replaced with another name bug
[03:24:42] <MrBluze> dunno how much of that i can take anymore
[03:24:44] <prospectacle> yeah that reminds me, does this place have a bugzilla, or similar?
[03:25:00] <NCommander> MrBluze, didn't you hear, we're having a name vote for the non-for-profit
[03:25:07] <MrBluze> what the
[03:25:10] <MrBluze> are u serious?
[03:25:11] * NCommander goes to get a mop for MrBluze's probable head explosion
[03:25:21] <NCommander> MrBluze, jk :-)
[03:25:24] <MrBluze> lol
[03:25:28] * NCommander waits for the well deserved -1 Troll downmod
[03:25:29] <prospectacle> lol
[03:25:35] <MrBluze> tehre is too much demoracy
[03:25:38] <MrBluze> democracy
[03:25:42] <MrBluze> and poorly executed at that
[03:25:47] <NCommander> Actually, I have a name for the non-for-profit already
[03:25:51] <MrBluze> :)
[03:25:53] <MrBluze> u do
[03:25:57] <MrBluze> and it's a good one
[03:26:01] <MrBluze> and i rather like it over all the alternatives
[03:26:06] <NCommander> Yup
[03:26:16] <MrBluze> i'd happily throw the vote out and take it
[03:26:21] <MrBluze> but thats just me
[03:26:22] <NCommander> MrBluze, I just wanted to see if your head would explode if I suggested to do another vote :-)
[03:26:24] <prospectacle> MrBluze, only too much given the time each vote takes. If/when a vote is quick, easy, and effective, a lot more voting would be good.
[03:26:32] <MrBluze> yep
[03:26:40] <MrBluze> if u have to choose between up to 7 things, its ok
[03:26:47] <chromas> I don't konw what it is but I'd vote for it
[03:26:52] <NCommander> prospectacle, we need to refine the system. The question that is do we refine now for this vote midphase, or finish it and fix it later
[03:26:55] <MrBluze> but 90? thats like the senate ballot paper here.. no one does it
[03:27:09] <NCommander> The problem is I can't get the domain name without the "foundation" bit
[03:27:17] <NCommander> If it was available, I would have suggested it
[03:27:27] <MrBluze> NCommander: .. remember one i suggested
[03:27:39] <MrBluze> in pm
[03:27:46] <MrBluze> we could.. buy that ...
[03:27:53] <MrBluze> and .. live happily ever after
[03:29:49] <MrBluze> i just bought it
[03:30:23] <NCommander> MrBluze, fuck it, I think we just scored our site name + NFP name in one fell swoop
[03:30:39] <MrBluze> just need to keep an eye on the tld's and buy them if they become free
[03:30:42] <prospectacle> ncommander, the latter. This vote needs to be taken to completion, then lessons can be learned in full
[03:31:14] <SpallsHurgenson> and the lesson we need to learn is that voting never works :)
[03:31:38] <MrBluze> voting can work
[03:31:43] <MrBluze> but its like a restaurant
[03:31:46] <MrBluze> give people the cream to choose from
[03:31:47] <chromas> Steching it out over a long time doesn't work. Look at the Simpsons
[03:31:48] <MrBluze> not the crud
[03:31:49] <NCommander> I'm not confortible with the BDFL model
[03:32:00] <NCommander> Because if experience has taught me something, *anyone* can be corrupted
[03:32:11] <MrBluze> BDFL?
[03:32:28] <chromas> Benevolent Dictator For Life
[03:32:34] <SpallsHurgenson> I can't be corrupted, although for you, and a certain fee to be disclosed later, I'll make an exception :)
[03:32:44] <MrBluze> BDFL is good for a while
[03:32:59] <NCommander> I'm the TBD
[03:33:03] <MrBluze> but u cant relinquish it until u have a stable working system of governance
[03:33:27] <MrBluze> this project is not ready for it
[03:33:28] <MrBluze> no way
[03:33:33] <prospectacle> I think the problems with the vote are possibly over-stated. It's been slow and painful, but the core has been created. Everything else is improving the interface.
[03:33:33] -!- pingus [pingus!~pert.boio@76.84.hjr.llj] has joined #Soylent
[03:33:51] <MrBluze> the vote has problems of validity
[03:34:00] <MrBluze> the participation rate is low
[03:34:05] <prospectacle> 1 - web form instead of email. 2 - proper ranking (1st is 1). 3 - login to vote instead of token. 4 - profit!
[03:34:17] <MrBluze> there was confusion on ranking .. so we dont know how many of the silent ones voted inversely
[03:34:25] <prospectacle> MrBluze, well it wasn't easy, as such to vote, but it wasn't hard.
[03:34:39] <MrBluze> yes it could have been worse
[03:34:43] <MrBluze> and at least it was done
[03:34:46] <MrBluze> so i tip my hat to that
[03:34:51] <NCommander> Well, let me put it like this
[03:34:51] <prospectacle> MrBluze, secondly, even with inversions (a problem I agree), it's still accurate for picking a shortlist (as you could only pick 9)
[03:35:00] <NCommander> The Florida Voting Commision would be proud for me
[03:35:04] <prospectacle> lol
[03:35:04] <NCommander> *for us
[03:35:05] <NCommander> bad typo
[03:35:08] <MrBluze> lol yes
[03:35:13] <MrBluze> well its a vote
[03:35:17] <MrBluze> but we can do better
[03:35:26] <MrBluze> and if we are to survive we have to do a lot better
[03:35:38] <prospectacle> As a software devleoper I think we should count it as a successful proof of concept that needs optimising and interface improvements.
[03:35:45] <prospectacle> maybe a bug fix or two
[03:35:51] <MrBluze> yep
[03:35:56] <prospectacle> it's progress
[03:36:01] <MrBluze> as a project manager i'd say .. uggghhhh
[03:36:08] * NCommander looks forward to when we have money to hire folks to fix this
[03:36:20] <MrBluze> the software is stable
[03:36:26] <MrBluze> now fix the marketing!!
[03:36:30] <NCommander> For some definitions of the word stable
[03:36:35] <SpallsHurgenson> money to fix the vote?
[03:36:39] <stderr> prospectacle: Or maybe dump it and use something that already works...
[03:36:40] <MrBluze> so then we can fix the shopfront
[03:36:49] <prospectacle> MrBluze, well of course you would. Project managers want things to work and be completed. What a crazy idea.
[03:36:51] <NCommander> SpallsHurgenson, we could hire Diebold
[03:37:45] <prospectacle> stderr, correct me if I'm mistaken but I thought it was using devotee's condorcet method, and it's just the ui and login stuff that needs refining.
[03:38:03] <MrBluze> i dunno
[03:38:10] <MrBluze> i thought this was what databases and html were for
[03:38:11] <stderr> It's not. In Devotee you can give two or more options the same score.
[03:38:25] <MrBluze> devotee is pre-fab which is nice
[03:38:32] <MrBluze> and someone else is maintaining it which is even nicer
[03:38:45] <prospectacle> were duplicates disallowed because of the counting engine or the parsing engine?
[03:39:01] * MrBluze has no idea
[03:39:03] <prospectacle> I get the impression a lot of the rules were becuase a regular expression was used instead of a real parser. But that's just a guess.
[03:39:06] <MrBluze> i never had a hand in it
[03:39:15] <stderr> From what I have heard, the code was written from scratch.
[03:39:23] <prospectacle> I see
[03:40:45] <MrBluze> oh .. i got an email about domain names
[03:41:05] <MrBluze> for JUST THIS ONE TIME i will relent and actually reply to it and try to fill in the boxes correctly
[03:43:05] <Konomi> is there something wrong with login?
[03:43:19] <Konomi> I try to login and it seems to be workign then I end up at login again not logged in at all
[03:44:15] <chromas> Subsentient was having that problem as well
[03:44:28] <Subsentient> indeed
[03:44:35] <Subsentient> NCommander:
[03:45:08] <prospectacle> Konomi, dunno what's going on. Just tried and it worked for me, though.
[03:45:23] <chromas> Konomi, are you going through a proxy?
[03:45:37] <chromas> That's the only suggestion I've heard so far
[03:46:00] <chromas> s/ion/ed cause/
[03:46:04] <MrBluze> well i better get moving
[03:46:08] <MrBluze> see u all later
[03:46:15] MrBluze is now known as MrBluze|away
[03:46:28] <MrBluze|away> NCommander: u can have that name anytime u want btw
[03:46:29] * SpallsHurgenson assigns the blame to firefox29, just 'cause
[03:47:10] * NCommander is overeating
[03:47:11] <NCommander> ugh
[03:47:55] * NCommander is trying to quit smoking
[03:48:44] <prospectacle> bye mrbluze
[03:48:49] <MrBluze|away> go patches or gum
[03:48:51] <Konomi> no I am not
[03:49:11] <MrBluze|away> and do 7 minute workout ;)
[03:49:22] <SpallsHurgenson> LGWH works wonders
[03:49:24] <MrBluze|away> hi Konomi btw
[03:49:52] <Konomi> hey ^^
[03:49:53] <prospectacle> giving up smoking sucks, it took me years. best of luck and willpower
[03:50:03] <prospectacle> totally worth it
[03:50:13] <Konomi> there's noting interesting showing up in my debug console on firefox
[03:50:16] <Konomi> just the post
[03:50:31] <MrBluze|away> im gonna go lose 2g of weight at the hair dressers
[03:50:48] <MrBluze|away> cheers
[03:50:59] <NCommander> MrBluze|away, I'm curious to see how much hair you have O_o;
[03:51:13] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Tails Linux Version 1.0 Released - http://sylnt.us - not-just-a-sidekick
[03:51:15] <NCommander> Konomi, you're the second to complain about login issues *sigh*
[03:51:36] <Konomi> http://paste.ofcode.org
[03:53:33] <Konomi> odd thing is
[03:53:39] <Konomi> the site hsan't stored any cookies at all
[03:54:08] <SpallsHurgenson> ncommander ate them all
[03:54:26] <Konomi> I imagine changing the comment settings would store a cookie no?
[03:54:41] <NCommander> Konomi, stored in the backend and inmemcache
[03:54:46] <Konomi> oh okay
[03:54:49] <Konomi> guess not then ;p
[03:55:09] <NCommander> Slash tries to put its users on a diet by not stuffing them with cookies
[03:55:42] <Konomi> I'm going to try chrome
[03:56:18] <NCommander> Konomi, careful it doesn't rust
[03:56:20] <Konomi> worked in chrome...
[03:56:28] <Konomi> oh I think I was putting my irc password in it x.x
[03:56:47] <Konomi> I was...
[03:56:49] <Konomi> I logged in now
[03:56:55] <SpallsHurgenson> oh, you're never going to live that down
[03:57:00] <Konomi> but it doesn't tell you if you're putting in invalid passwords etc
[03:57:25] <Konomi> or it does
[03:57:28] <Konomi> I'll just go hide now ;p
[03:57:38] <prospectacle> lol
[03:58:15] <Konomi> in my defense I just woke up ._.
[03:58:45] <prospectacle> But you're in! that's what counts. You're part of the exclusive and prestigious group of logged in SN people. It's all plain sailing from here.
[04:00:01] <Konomi> also...
[04:00:08] <Konomi> why does logging in redirect me from https to http?
[04:00:10] <SpallsHurgenson> oh great, it's raining again
[04:00:49] * prospectacle wishes it would rain
[04:00:52] <Konomi> I login on https://soylentnews.org and once it shows me logged in the url bar now shows http://soylentnews.org
[04:00:59] <NCommander> Konomi, that's the bug that refuses to fucking die
[04:01:05] <Konomi> lol ok
[04:01:11] <NCommander> Konomi, Honestly, instead of fixing it properly, I'm tempted just to HSPS
[04:01:12] <NCommander> it
[04:01:24] <Konomi> is that like some sort of cream?
[04:01:40] <NCommander> Konomi, but in seriousness, xlefay and myself has lighting zapped that bug three times
[04:02:04] <NCommander> Konomi, Creame de Insecta?
[04:02:09] <Konomi> ha
[04:02:55] <NCommander> Konomi, you know, I bet I could make a successful makeup product by taking abunch of bugs, crushing them into a goo, and then telling women it takes 10 years off your face
[04:03:07] <SpallsHurgenson> might just be simpler to zap the users who are having the issue :)
[04:03:28] <Konomi> I'm sure you could there's no shortage of stupid in either sex
[04:03:55] <NCommander> SpallsHurgenson, I dunno, if Blackmoore|lostatsea is a the representive of the "average" Soylent user, then that's a LOT of hair, and burnt hair smells funky
[04:04:22] <prospectacle> foxtrot doesn't have anything on par with firth of fifth, but it's probably a better album overall than selling england by the pound.
[04:04:31] <prospectacle> there I said it
[04:04:44] <Konomi> long hair needs brushing a lot
[04:04:56] <NCommander> prospectacle, reminds me of when I sent to see the doc. He told me I gained 5 pounds, then made me cough up 500
[04:05:07] <NCommander> well, 20, since my insurnace covered the rest
[04:05:11] <prospectacle> lol
[04:05:12] <NCommander> Konomi, I used to have a mullet ...
[04:05:18] * NCommander understands long hair
[04:05:24] * SpallsHurgenson has no idea who we are talking about, but rather than admit ignorance nods knowingly instead
[04:05:31] * Konomi imagines NCommander head banging
[04:05:48] <prospectacle> in australia they're debating making patients pay a $6-$15 copay to see a doctor (instead of nothing), people are up in arms
[04:05:48] <NCommander> SpallsHurgenson, oh good, so you approve of us selling out to DICE
[04:06:12] <NCommander> Konomi, I'm sorry that your mental image of me causes you pain
[04:06:12] <Konomi> burn the phony rabit
[04:06:20] <SpallsHurgenson> no problem, there's still comp.misc and pipedot :)
[04:06:42] * NCommander takes his mask off and reveals himself to be ... CmdrTaco in disguise
[04:06:45] <Konomi> I imagine someone smoking a pipe when I hear pipedot
[04:06:55] <NCommander> GAH
[04:07:00] * NCommander smacks Konomi's last sentence
[04:07:01] <NCommander> NO SMOKE
[04:07:02] <NCommander> BAD
[04:07:41] <SpallsHurgenson> nosmoke.exe
[04:07:51] <Konomi> pft mime types thanks
[04:08:03] <NCommander> SpallsHurgenson, nosmoke.cm
[04:08:16] <NCommander> er, pm
[04:08:26] * NCommander notes if you know what OS uses pm as an executable extension, take a brownie
[04:08:34] <NCommander> (and I mean actual executable, not perl script)
[04:08:57] <prospectacle> is it pcode?
[04:10:13] <NCommander> Nope
[04:10:24] <prospectacle> damn, those brownies looked good, too
[04:11:31] * NCommander is regretting the desert
[04:11:45] <NCommander> But that chocolate peanutbutter pie was fucking decident
[04:11:49] <SpallsHurgenson> you should never regret desert
[04:12:50] * NCommander eats SpallsHurgenson
[04:12:53] <NCommander> *burp*
[04:13:11] <NCommander> Fuck it, going back to my hotel
[04:13:18] <NCommander> Hoping tomorrow will be less suck and fail
[04:13:33] <SpallsHurgenson> somebody give that man a bed to crash into
[04:13:51] * NCommander looks around
[04:14:05] <NCommander> How about a nice warm body to curl up to?
[04:14:30] <SpallsHurgenson> not until you stop smoking, sorry
[04:14:32] <prospectacle> Do you have a blog with a donate button? I can help you for hotels for a while
[04:15:09] <NCommander> SpallsHurgenson, consider me official quit
[04:15:13] * NCommander has gone 10 hours without
[04:17:55] <prospectacle> well I'd better get going. Have a good and ground-breaking time everyone
[04:18:00] -!- prospectacle [prospectacle!~b4c880f7@180.200.jji.ihy] has parted #Soylent
[04:23:13] <paulej72> NCommander: do you rememeber which var sets how long a stroy can be commented on
[04:42:19] -!- pingus has quit []
[04:59:55] <swiss> hey, has anyone gotten the rtf exploit to run successfully?
[04:59:56] <swiss> i can't seem to get it to fully kick off
[05:11:54] <SpallsHurgenson> oh no, I'm not falling for that one a sixth time!
[05:21:21] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Israel Prime Minister Rants Against Technology - http://sylnt.us - +1-insightful-hypocrisy?
[05:26:15] <arti> "yeah uh, nothing happens"
[05:35:41] <swiss> no, that's actually an issue for me. it seems to need a specific set of conditions :/
[05:42:09] <MrBluze|away> NCommander: ping
[05:42:13] MrBluze|away is now known as MrBluze
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[05:53:29] -!- Mattiep has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[05:54:37] <MrBluze> is it sleepy-byes time in murka?
[06:02:30] <chromas> Yeah it's about midnight in his area
[06:04:42] <MrBluze> ok
[06:04:52] <MrBluze> i dunno what it is about people on here sleeping
[06:04:55] <MrBluze> it shouldnt be allowed
[06:07:17] -!- drussell_ [drussell_!~drussell@205.233.pt.umv] has joined #Soylent
[06:07:59] -!- drussell has quit [Read error: No route to host]
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[06:08:11] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v mattie_p] by juggler
[06:08:19] <chromas> It's the fault of that article the other day
[06:08:31] <chromas> Brain stimulation instead of simulatio
[06:08:32] <chromas> n
[06:09:28] <chromas> Something that for some reason was never used in star trek as far as I know
[06:09:49] <chromas> They can sample mass and store it for later but not 'play' it inside the computer
[06:10:28] <MrBluze> +1 insightful
[06:10:53] <chromas> Store all the crew on board then when they get sick, make a diff so they can see what changed
[06:11:20] <chromas> Or just merge with their old bodies for youth while keeping their brain state
[06:11:32] -!- prospectacle [prospectacle!~b4c880f7@180.200.jji.ihy] has joined #Soylent
[06:11:37] <chromas> s/old/previous/
[06:11:52] <prospectacle> Well MrBluze I've got openssl working on my localhost, so that's a start
[06:13:19] <MrBluze> thats a start indeed
[06:14:30] <prospectacle> I was thinking about whether it would be better to have the recipient a secret and the sender specified publicly, or vice versa.
[06:14:42] <prospectacle> I'm leaning towards private sender (in fact I think that's a good name for the system)
[06:14:50] <prospectacle> "PrivateSender"
[06:15:11] <prospectacle> so, e.g. To: (MRBLUZE'sKEY), MSG: a243oh5j34h534h5324kh534.
[06:15:34] <prospectacle> then you run it through your thing and it says "This is from prospectacle, it says: "hi" ", or 'This is not from anyone on your list'
[06:17:31] <MrBluze> oh
[06:18:01] <MrBluze> hello btw :)
[06:18:05] <prospectacle> hi
[06:18:14] <prospectacle> hope you are well this fine friday
[06:18:21] <MrBluze> lol yes but its cold and wet
[06:19:00] <NCommander> MrBluze, pong
[06:19:01] <MrBluze> hmm.. private sender i dunno
[06:19:11] <MrBluze> i send u a quick msg in pm
[06:19:37] <prospectacle> yeah I'm not sure either. I guess it could be optional.
[06:20:06] <prospectacle> You could make the sender public, but not mention the recipient. Then everyone on your list can parse the message and it can say "Yes it was for you", or 'no it wasn't for you'
[06:20:13] <MrBluze> prospectacle: the header cant be completely hidden
[06:20:17] <MrBluze> but u can obfuscate it
[06:20:31] <prospectacle> Probably optional is the best. Either the sender or the recipient needs to be public (not the real person, of course, but their key)
[06:20:52] <MrBluze> yes, a hash of the key
[06:21:03] <MrBluze> people with the key look for its hash
[06:21:22] <MrBluze> recipient i'd say
[06:21:37] <MrBluze> and sender can put sender details in messag body
[06:21:37] <prospectacle> that would make it shorter I guess. But if it's a public key then it's ok to just use the key, as the public ID, is it not?
[06:21:41] <prospectacle> I'm a bit new to this stuff
[06:21:55] <MrBluze> well the public key should be safe to be public
[06:21:59] <MrBluze> but why share it if u dont have to ;)
[06:22:52] <prospectacle> yes I suppose ypi
[06:22:56] <prospectacle> lol
[06:22:59] <prospectacle> yes I suppose you're right
[06:23:46] <prospectacle> is md5 ok?
[06:23:49] <MrBluze> but public is rather shared via the trusted person
[06:23:56] <MrBluze> md5 is fine but u have to salt it
[06:24:27] <MrBluze> well .. in fact it doesnt matter as long as the people doing the exchange agree on the hash algo
[06:24:46] <prospectacle> so when I give you my details, I give you my public key, and my public hash (ID)? but i keep the salt secret to myself?
[06:26:03] <MrBluze> hmm
[06:26:20] <MrBluze> the pub ket can contain some salt
[06:26:24] <MrBluze> i dunno
[06:26:56] <MrBluze> lemme think hmm
[06:26:56] <prospectacle> well anyway I'd better get back to it. I'll make a basic version over the weekend and you can be the second person in the world to use it, and we can test it, if you like.
[06:27:07] <MrBluze> lol thats fast
[06:27:17] <MrBluze> i am very time poor i warn u
[06:27:21] <prospectacle> I figure it tries to decrypt using every key on its register (your contacts list) and the message has a checksum to see if it decrypted correctly.
[06:27:27] <MrBluze> yes
[06:27:35] <MrBluze> but easier is u keep a list of hashes of working keys
[06:27:37] <prospectacle> Well I'll just send you a .php when it's ready. Do you have openssl going?
[06:27:39] <MrBluze> and u just match those
[06:27:49] <MrBluze> i believe i do
[06:28:17] <MrBluze> for example ..
[06:28:29] <prospectacle> cool. Will let you know. Seems like all the parts are there (in php) just need to assemble it: Write message, add checksum, encrypt my private key, encrypt your public key, send to you.
[06:28:33] <MrBluze> if u had your own key + recipient key hashed
[06:28:42] <MrBluze> yes
[06:28:58] <prospectacle> could double checksum.
[06:29:02] <MrBluze> the hash can be the header
[06:29:30] <MrBluze> yeah .. something liek that .. something that makes it unique and the recipient and sender know the hash is a link between them, but nobody else can guess
[06:29:37] <prospectacle> ie first pass: yes this is for me (based on checksum after decrypting with my private key). Second pass, yes this is from X (based on checksum after decrypting with their public key). Might save a bit of time.
[06:30:09] <prospectacle> that way fakes can be weeded out more easily.
[06:30:16] <prospectacle> they won't make it past the first pass
[06:30:22] <MrBluze> yeah
[06:30:47] <prospectacle> cool.
[06:31:12] <MrBluze> i wonder if the sender-recipient can be made into a single hash
[06:31:41] <MrBluze> all u need then to do is check for sender-recipient hashes which you pre-form as you build your library of keys
[06:31:47] <prospectacle> yes, good idea. Then when you see a message you know who it's supposedly to, and supposedly from. Then you only have to be on the lookout for (x) hashes, where x is the number of people/groups in your trusted list.
[06:31:56] <MrBluze> yep
[06:32:03] <MrBluze> then u attempt to download and decrypt said message
[06:32:04] <prospectacle> good plan
[06:32:07] <MrBluze> and then ..
[06:33:08] <MrBluze> and another thing
[06:33:37] <MrBluze> another idea is to enable some kind of handshake to update keys periodically
[06:34:11] <MrBluze> not sure if that's needed tho but hmm
[06:34:24] <prospectacle> although then maybe that's bad. becuase if you can see the to/from hash, and you have boht of those people on your own register, then you can figture out who it's to and from.
[06:35:03] <MrBluze> yes ...
[06:35:09] <prospectacle> i guess it could be multi-stage. You give them your public key, they send you a messgae with a secret salt, then you create a has of your key+their key+ salt.
[06:35:13] <MrBluze> unless..
[06:35:22] <prospectacle> s/has/hash/
[06:35:44] <MrBluze> say you had a range of hashes that could be used
[06:35:59] <MrBluze> so i put a random salt byte in .. giving possible 256 combinations of a hash
[06:36:25] <MrBluze> then the reader has to check against 256 possible hashes to find the message
[06:36:50] <prospectacle> 256 per contact?
[06:36:54] <MrBluze> if there was some kind of handshake .. the salt can be updated
[06:36:56] <MrBluze> yeah
[06:37:12] <MrBluze> i mean u are just doing a search between lists of 512 byte strings
[06:37:18] <MrBluze> or shorter even
[06:37:59] <prospectacle> but that wouldn't stop me from seeing you were sending a message to bob, I can just check for the hash of your key+ random byte.
[06:38:11] <MrBluze> not + random byte
[06:38:22] <prospectacle> What about three modes: 1 sender is public. 2 recipient is public, 3 using either 1 or 2, a salt is agreed on, and all further messages use sender+recipient+salt hash, as the header
[06:38:24] <MrBluze> but hash of ( key + random byte )
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[06:38:44] <MrBluze> yeah
[06:39:33] <MrBluze> well if there's some handshaking going on
[06:39:39] <MrBluze> as in, to and fro messages
[06:40:05] <MrBluze> then in those messages new salt can be shared to hide sender/recipient in headers
[06:40:28] <MrBluze> once a conversation starts between the two, they can produce a new set of hashes for that conversation that develop and change
[06:41:14] <prospectacle> yes, that could work, it could an additional conversation option: "Add new salts at end of each message"
[06:41:30] <MrBluze> eg: inside a message, in a random offset, u put a 16 byte or so string of binary
[06:41:45] <MrBluze> and that becomes the new salt for the next message if the conversation continues
[06:42:12] <prospectacle> yes
[06:42:16] <MrBluze> the problem is if the chain is broken.. it can reveal sender/recipient because they have to reinitiate the handshake
[06:42:43] <prospectacle> true, but the reinitiation is still encrypted. You just start with the initial-pre-agreed salted hash, or make either the revcipient or the sender public.
[06:43:07] <MrBluze> yes but an attacker might look for a repeat of the hash
[06:43:19] <MrBluze> and pick that they successfully interrupted the thread
[06:43:31] <MrBluze> .. unless u use last known good
[06:43:39] <prospectacle> yeah you could have a tolerance: "accept up to three messages that use this salt"
[06:43:52] <MrBluze> yeah
[06:44:05] <MrBluze> or use one of three salts provided, for example
[06:44:17] <MrBluze> so the repeat message still appears to be a new one
[06:44:34] <prospectacle> yeah. true. it's only bytes. and not many of them.
[06:45:03] <MrBluze> i am just hoping this approach doesnt produce too much non-randomness to things so that it can be more easily broken
[06:45:13] <prospectacle> to reply to me, use one of these ten salts: Each one is only used once, if you send 10 messages and they don't get them, you have to reinitiate. Or something.
[06:45:16] <MrBluze> but i doubt so, if it's basically adding random salt
[06:45:26] <MrBluze> yeah
[06:45:31] <MrBluze> yes
[06:45:35] <MrBluze> 10 salts perhaps
[06:45:54] <prospectacle> anyway that's def. a v2 feature.
[06:46:12] <MrBluze> so maybe u shove 160 bytes of salt to pad a message in a truly random offset
[06:46:26] <prospectacle> makes sense
[06:46:47] <MrBluze> allows for 10 failed sends before thread is declared dead
[06:46:58] <MrBluze> or 10 replies to a message to same recipient
[06:47:00] <prospectacle> yes, or a configurable number in your client.
[06:47:12] <MrBluze> and then u can track where in the thread u are branching from
[06:47:24] <MrBluze> yes configurable .. i guess in a forum u can have 100 or so
[06:47:28] <MrBluze> replies per message
[06:47:44] * MrBluze smiles .. this is clever
[06:48:04] <prospectacle> yep, good fun, too
[06:48:17] <MrBluze> it's what the internet needs badly
[06:48:20] <prospectacle> soon no one will be able to hear us complaining about the weather. No one !!!!
[06:48:37] <MrBluze> lol except the hardware is all compromised now so .. oh well
[06:48:54] <prospectacle> oh well, might be fun anyway.
[06:49:03] <prospectacle> good chat, I'd better get back to real things.
[06:49:03] <MrBluze> yes, very
[06:49:08] <MrBluze> cheers
[06:49:09] <MrBluze> me too
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[06:50:28] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Adult Film Stars' Bank Accounts Closed - http://sylnt.us - doj-is-the-dominant-one
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[07:11:00] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v mattie_p] by juggler
[07:22:24] <swiss> fuck this rtf vuln
[07:24:39] <MrBluze> hey swiss
[07:24:52] <MrBluze> random pm
[07:41:25] <Subsentient> dgb v kjfgvnrhrrwtyjesrfmrrfrtytawrqwqy7thsereretyhtyjsertrytggtwqtr hkk,rtureedhuykertfwsrfl,ytikyil,jk.jhjmgjhru.oikyjrhuyil,hetktt3wjk,tyywegjihk5rdjtyws,iuikthdghw4trrtk,hhekyhrgmrhjtghertuj5r6ghgkfhgkhggkhjkhjkrtjuy gyktyhkjrthhjkhuregrihl,jreyj,yi,kgjtkiulmyhukjk.yukuiuedf
[07:42:25] <Subsentient> rthuy
[07:43:54] <Subsentient> uyjliyhtuokujotfguol['yuolseuit67tydyfgjtfujrtyydryhftujydrytyityhyuiudrytytqwertygerujyu5r4weykljjtyukje4rhjiuhteryktghtyuijwrt4r57yuiu9iiu54etrasew4RTERGT7UIO78;98O765674DSRWQUYILKJREDUMYIJDRHMJ,IKUYTRGJLKRUYILRTITYUIUGHRT67ULI,UWSRYHTYGKMkyuk4wesgdbrertgujkyiokygwe4t3qwefguij7uyjhklyu8rxdrzwferdttyuikl;oilkr6tywadsyg,trftfhzdt5euhkbjuew57ydjnbxcdthnfgjhnfgvbjrtyf b mnykttgsdcfghkilrtfgeascbtujdyhjgkertytgnmsetyyujh,tdktrfukj
[07:44:15] <MrBluze> \:-|
[07:44:47] <Subsentient> MrBluze: dftgjtfghkrftkr667yghe5tujtfgiujr5d7uw4se5tre56tyhaedzkmyfuthdj76tk8uyjl
[07:46:03] <MrBluze> .. uhm ok
[07:46:26] <chromas> You have to decrypt it like you were talking about earlier
[07:46:48] <MrBluze> but i have no key for it
[07:46:56] <chromas> Hint: it's about a chocolatey beverage
[07:48:11] <MrBluze> thanks for the hint
[07:48:41] <chromas> Soon you'll get your bb gun
[07:48:55] <MrBluze> base64?
[07:50:42] <chromas> Actually, I don't know. What I do know is for some reason Firefox made Amazon the default search engine
[07:50:49] <chromas> my firefox
[07:51:10] <MrBluze> oh.. nice
[07:52:15] <chromas> oh it's the new version where the preferences looks like a file manager and I can drag the icons around for no reason
[07:52:30] <MrBluze> lol
[07:52:44] <MrBluze> change for the sake of change
[07:53:34] <chromas> I guess it was the Customize section. Still different and that makes me a-scared
[07:54:15] <MrBluze> yeah different has a probably 10% chance of being broken
[07:54:19] <MrBluze> or maybe worse
[07:56:06] <chromas> I like how the only place to edit search engines is in the little search toolbar which is turned off
[07:56:41] <chromas> So what were you guys talking about earlier? Web forum with secrecy? Or non-web?
[07:56:55] <MrBluze> email/forum
[07:57:04] <MrBluze> client side end to end encryption
[07:57:18] <MrBluze> but public hosting
[07:57:38] <MrBluze> basically "we know you are watching, but now we dont care"
[07:58:37] <MrBluze> maybe the solution is as a browser plugin .. but a js library for websites is better
[07:59:28] <MrBluze> and one-to-many public key
[07:59:44] <MrBluze> and thread-sensitive salt
[07:59:51] <MrBluze> or whatever u might call that
[08:00:22] <MrBluze> so the original message influences the crypto of subsequent messages, including encryption of headers
[08:00:44] <MrBluze> .. then by just looking u cant tell what belongs to what thread
[08:02:04] <MrBluze> or who sent it or who teh recipient is :)
[08:03:04] <MrBluze> :D
[08:03:32] <chromas> =--
[08:03:39] <chromas> Popsicle for that open mouth
[08:03:43] <chromas> :-)
[08:03:54] <chromas> Sounds like a cool idea
[08:04:22] <MrBluze> yeah we decided its time to win the internets
[08:04:39] <MrBluze> no more dark nets
[08:04:42] <Subsentient> ghrtgljrgrt;gmw;lkmg tkl wejm flt;rkgmfdklsngkvlrtnfdleknfgjlk34jnm gkljn ejlkrd5crnelfdjl34kwejmrf;oljm5trklgtfnr2l3ewdn gk54jrem;lk4nwerkjn54tlhb
[08:06:28] <MrBluze> mirc used to have a crypto plugin
[08:12:30] <ar> dafuck is this crap?
[08:16:42] <chromas> Don't know. What I do know is I forgot to put sugar in the bana bread :-/
[08:16:51] <chromas> s/na/nana/
[08:41:52] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Small Groups Make Better Decisions - http://sylnt.us - end-of-personal-responsibility
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[10:01:54] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - How Can We Promote Democracy? - http://sylnt.us - it's-not-for-sale
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[11:01:44] <stdhell> bryan: You've got email... :-)
[11:01:55] * arti hears the AOL sound
[11:01:56] <bryan> I see it ^^
[11:03:45] <bryan> i wonder if they still have that sound somewhere in their mail client
[11:03:57] <bryan> if they even have a mail client these days
[11:04:37] <MrBluze> aol?
[11:04:45] <MrBluze> they probably just have money
[11:07:59] <bryan> ya, but since time warner couldnt get bought out by them, now time warner has to to get bought out by comcast
[11:18:23] <MrBluze> how to promote democracy
[11:18:26] <MrBluze> isnt that ironic
[11:18:36] <MrBluze> how do we promote peace.. i know.. sell weapons to everyone
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[11:52:40] <MrBluze> *cricket* *cricket* *cricket*
[11:52:48] * arti breathes quietly
[11:53:00] <MrBluze> tails 1.0
[11:53:17] * MrBluze bought some more domain names today
[11:53:25] <arti> nice
[11:53:40] * arti keeps several in a text file and thinks about purchasing them
[11:54:09] <MrBluze> i only want one
[11:54:11] <MrBluze> and im keeping it
[11:54:21] <MrBluze> but the others i bought for this project, for better or worse
[11:54:41] <arti> sounds practical
[11:55:48] <MrBluze> nah sounds expensive
[11:56:09] <arti> squatters?
[11:56:19] <MrBluze> its to prevent 'em
[11:56:25] <MrBluze> i bought libre-news
[11:56:52] <MrBluze> and librene.ws
[11:58:16] <arti> ah cool, newsy.
[11:59:08] <MrBluze> yeah in keeping with other developments u see
[11:59:18] <MrBluze> incorporation name i think will be something along those lines
[12:03:05] <arti> well hopefully it comes together nicely
[12:03:30] <MrBluze> actually i hope so
[12:03:42] <MrBluze> im not sure about the otehr contenders as being good options
[12:04:13] <MrBluze> we have to have a name that is actually better and, despite the nerdy/geeky nature of the community, the name should be fairly straightforward
[12:05:05] <MrBluze> sadly some of the ones i thought would be a good alternative didnt eventuate
[12:05:08] <MrBluze> but nvm lol
[12:07:52] <stdhell> MrBluze: If librene.ws isn't going to be used for anything related to SoylentNews, I got an idea for you... Hint: gcc -o foo bar.o -lrene
[12:09:45] <MrBluze> uhm
[12:10:07] <MrBluze> what kinda hint is that
[12:10:24] <stdhell> -lrene would link with the "rene" library... librene
[12:10:56] <MrBluze> oh lol
[12:10:59] <stdhell> And that library would (of course) need a homepage...
[12:11:00] <MrBluze> ahah lol
[12:11:06] <MrBluze> great
[12:11:10] <MrBluze> and rene does uhh
[12:11:14] <MrBluze> whatever
[12:11:21] <stdhell> Yeah... Or nothing...
[12:11:29] <MrBluze> even better
[12:11:34] <MrBluze> it outputs null
[12:11:43] <MrBluze> but takes up heaps of space
[12:11:51] <stdhell> Or it fetches random news articles from SoylentNews...
[12:12:27] <MrBluze> i dun fink we will be called that in the end
[12:14:36] <stdhell> SoylentNews? I don't think (or hope) so either... But I __STILL__ don't know any of the names we selected in the vote, so... :-/
[12:15:36] <MrBluze> 90 of them were published
[12:16:09] <stdhell> True, but I'm not going to list 90 names. :-) 5 or 10, maybe... :-)
[12:16:35] <MrBluze> exactly
[12:16:37] <stdhell> I know which 4-5 I prefer.
[12:16:37] <MrBluze> 90 is insane
[12:16:52] <MrBluze> same here
[12:17:00] <MrBluze> im just afraid we will be called something really lame
[12:17:20] <MrBluze> but i better not start again on this .. i exploded already before
[12:17:44] <stdhell> I still don't get why we haven't seen the result of the vote yet. I get that you need to buy some of the names, but it normally doesn't take 5 days to buy some domains.
[12:17:59] <MrBluze> lol
[12:18:09] <MrBluze> dont get me started!! lol
[12:19:32] <stdhell> You know what will happen when we see the list, right? We'll check when the domains was reg'ed and either get pissed off because we can see that they got the names 4-5 days ago OR we'll be pissed because they waited 4-5 days before they got the names. :-)
[12:19:46] <stdhell> So we might as well get pissed off right now. :-)
[12:19:49] <MrBluze> yeah
[12:21:18] <MrBluze> copyrights and whatever is gonna clean up a few names out
[12:25:37] <stdhell> Didn't they do that before the voting?
[12:26:06] <stdhell> They should have, so we did waste our votes.
[12:26:33] <MrBluze> mate
[12:26:41] <MrBluze> like i said.. i exploded once already
[12:27:02] <stdhell> Only once?! Pfffttt...
[12:27:34] <MrBluze> haha
[12:27:45] <MrBluze> i am probably not meant to discuss it all here anyway
[12:27:57] <MrBluze> but yeah i kinda am not happy about this at all
[12:29:06] <MrBluze> the only real vote that anyone should have known about was choosing between several names.. maybe 10 or 20 if they are all so good
[12:29:17] <MrBluze> but more likely less than 10 real contenders chosen by staff
[12:29:49] <MrBluze> releasing 90 names means people are now shown a bunch of viable names that squatters can now grab at any moment
[12:31:32] <stdhell> Instead of just having people send in suggestions, they should have asked for a reason why people thought their suggestions were good.
[12:31:45] <MrBluze> yes
[12:31:47] <MrBluze> EXACTKY
[12:32:28] <stdhell> If you look at http://soylentnews.org some of the reasons are "... because!"
[12:32:33] <MrBluze> and we could have checked them, discussed them and so on, and present real contenders
[12:32:56] <stdhell> You mean "we" as in "staff", right?
[12:33:34] <MrBluze> well yes
[12:33:39] <MrBluze> or staff + volunteers
[12:33:49] <MrBluze> a group of dedicated ppl who want to be part of it
[12:34:07] <MrBluze> firingsquid.com - A play on "firing squad". Why? Do we use Squid?
[12:34:15] <MrBluze> .. no.. squids release ink
[12:34:26] <MrBluze> and so etc
[12:35:05] <stdhell> The apt-get-news and sudonews name doesn't make sense to me.
[12:35:16] <stdhell> Is the site only for Debian-based distros?
[12:35:23] <MrBluze> yeah
[12:35:28] <stdhell> Real men don't use sudo...
[12:35:30] <MrBluze> agreed
[12:35:40] <MrBluze> may as well be udevrandom
[12:35:50] <MrBluze> anyone can come up with stupid bash commands as names
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[12:37:21] <MrBluze> but yeah oh well .. here we are stuck in a sea of mediocrity
[12:37:24] <MrBluze> hi konomi
[12:37:27] <stdhell> And the software?! :-(
[12:38:15] <stdhell> What I spend most time on, when I voted, was trying to decide which of the 4-5 names I liked the most.
[12:38:54] <MrBluze> well yeah the method of voting
[12:38:55] <stdhell> The software should have allowed "I like these names the same, but more than this group of names, ..."
[12:39:02] <MrBluze> i am lost for words
[12:39:18] <MrBluze> i took a break over that lol
[12:39:51] <stdhell> :-)
[12:40:27] <MrBluze> u know what html was designed for, right?
[12:40:32] <MrBluze> forms
[12:40:47] <MrBluze> omg no one knew that ;)
[12:40:52] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Tron Look for Mars Z-2 Spacesuit - http://sylnt.us - TronGuy-in-Spaaaaaaace!
[12:42:42] <MrBluze> too much beer
[12:44:35] <stdhell> If you're going to use emails for the voting, maybe it would be a good idea, if you send an email back with "Couldn't parse your vote! Try again..." or "Looks good... Counted!".
[12:45:00] <stdhell> Right now, I don't even know, if you got my vote or not.
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[12:45:18] <MrBluze> lol
[12:45:26] <MrBluze> not user friendly
[12:45:42] <stdhell> Not at all.
[12:46:21] <MrBluze> email was designed for messages
[12:47:16] <MrBluze> hence the name. mail
[12:47:17] <MrBluze> but anywya.. u got me started.. see!
[12:48:53] <MrBluze> my interest anyway is in usability
[12:49:11] <MrBluze> heuristics UI design all that .. so this whole thing flies in the face of what i care about
[12:49:30] <Konomi> hey MrBluze ~
[12:49:37] <MrBluze> hey Konomi :) how r ya
[12:49:59] <Konomi> same old same old ^^;
[12:50:12] <MrBluze> same as me
[12:50:16] <MrBluze> just a bit same older, same older
[12:50:26] <Konomi> yeah lol x.x
[12:51:14] <MrBluze> not sure whether to buy popcorn or not, as i watch ww3 develop
[12:52:12] <Konomi> popcorn is always needed for movies
[12:52:25] <MrBluze> yeah or jaffas
[12:52:30] <MrBluze> or jersey caramels
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[13:06:42] -!- Subsentient [Subsentient!~WhiteRat@universe2.us/Subsentient] has joined #Soylent
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[13:07:14] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v janrinok] by juggler
[13:09:59] MrBluze is now known as MrBluze|afk
[13:11:41] MrBluze|afk is now known as MrBluze
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[13:21:23] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Proof That Girls Are Better Students Than Boys - http://sylnt.us - no-fighting-here-please-children
[13:28:46] <crutchy> deadpeas: s/Boys/Rocks/
[13:29:24] <MrBluze> better students
[13:29:28] <MrBluze> but less intelligent
[13:29:38] <crutchy> oops i means
[13:29:44] <crutchy> deadpeas: s/Girls/Rocks/
[13:29:49] <crutchy> gudaamit
[13:30:00] <crutchy> s/aa/am/
[13:30:05] <crutchy> ??
[13:30:41] <crutchy> ZOMG!!!!! no sedbot?!
[13:30:51] <MrBluze> hmm
[13:30:57] <MrBluze> xlefay is ok btw, just busy
[13:31:35] <crutchy> mkay. good to head
[13:31:40] <crutchy> *hear
[13:32:23] <crutchy> i thought he might have been abducted by kobachians from the bacon system
[13:34:33] <MrBluze> out of the fryingpan and into the weber
[13:37:45] <stdhell> Mmm... Weber Grill...
[13:37:58] <MrBluze> yummy
[13:38:05] <MrBluze> with redgum twigs and a bit of birch
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[13:54:39] * MrBluze looks at his work roster next week
[13:55:58] <MrBluze> looks like another 100+ hour fortnight
[13:59:12] <stdhell> Sounds "fun"... I've been to work twice this week. Tuesday for a reception because someone was leaving after 45 years and today where I still haven't done anything work-related... Last week and the week before I had two weeks of vacation... :-)
[14:00:45] <MrBluze> yeah i had a couple of weeks off
[14:01:19] <MrBluze> climbed a mountain, camped for a few days
[14:01:32] <MrBluze> was good .. but its over soon
[14:01:39] <crutchy> i worked 36 this week. i need to work more but very hard with missus' back problem and 2 kids :-(
[14:01:55] <MrBluze> yeah that is tough work crutchy
[14:03:08] <crutchy> then i forgot to pick up a script from the quacks today
[14:03:52] <MrBluze> oh.. i'd get blasted if i did that
[14:05:11] <MrBluze> i better get to bed
[14:05:14] <MrBluze> im useless
[14:05:17] <MrBluze> see u all later :)
[14:06:11] <MrBluze> nite crutchy - have a good weekend mate
[14:07:42] <crutchy> g'night mrbluze
[14:07:47] <crutchy> you too
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[14:50:32] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Building the Perfect Painkiller - http://sylnt.us
[14:53:00] -!- weeds [weeds!~4118a13c@cwz-29-45-637-17.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #Soylent
[14:53:19] <janrinok> hi weeds
[14:53:55] <weeds> Good day janrinok
[14:54:01] <janrinok> how's things?
[14:54:47] <weeds> fairly quiet this AM. finishing up some stuff from yesterday. Have a visitor from the east coming in today... How about you?
[14:54:58] <crutchy> g'day janrinok,weeds
[14:55:05] <janrinok> hi crutchy
[14:55:09] <weeds> hello
[14:56:16] <janrinok> busy with the usual household chores this am, my wife is having her afternoon rest which gives me a break, and I'm looking forward to watching the snooker world semi-final this evening, perhaps with a drink or three...
[14:57:36] <weeds> :) basketball and hockey playoffs going on here.
[14:58:20] <janrinok> well, a sporting weekend for all then!
[14:59:47] <janrinok> how's things with you crutchy
[14:59:54] -!- michealpwalls [michealpwalls!~michealpw@dq-p708q-fi65.georgianc.on.ca] has joined #Soylent
[15:00:16] <crutchy> some midnight oil and php here... tv is off
[15:00:32] <janrinok> sorry to hear that...
[15:01:10] <crutchy> 11pm... kids in bed. very quiet. just got music playing in headphones
[15:01:22] <crutchy> working on IRCiv
[15:01:28] <janrinok> ah, so there is an upside as well....
[15:01:37] <crutchy> :-D
[15:01:50] <michealpwalls> Hey... Anyone know a bit about electrical infrastructure? Is this *really* possible? http://www.timesofisrael.com
[15:02:00] <michealpwalls> An electric vehicle damaging an electrical grid :/
[15:02:31] <michealpwalls> By pushing electricity into the grid or pulling absurd amounts from it, I suppose ^
[15:02:46] <crutchy> a dead bird brought down power for a decent portion of the eastern seaboard in '76
[15:02:52] <michealpwalls> I didn't think you could just willy-nilly push electricity into a grid. I thought you would need a special plug or something? :/
[15:02:54] <crutchy> i think
[15:03:01] <michealpwalls> Whoa that's crazy, cruthcy!
[15:03:16] <michealpwalls> ... So one Russian hacker could mod a car and paralyze our electricity grid with it?! :O
[15:03:52] <crutchy> mkay i tell a lie
[15:03:53] <janrinok> so don't sell electric cars to Russian hackers.... Problem solved - Nes
[15:03:56] <janrinok> Next!
[15:03:57] <crutchy> it was 1977
[15:03:59] <crutchy> http://en.wikipedia.org
[15:04:06] <crutchy> lightning for that one
[15:04:11] <crutchy> there was another though too
[15:04:13] <michealpwalls> LMAO janrinok
[15:05:09] <janrinok> I'm a practical problem solver....
[15:05:59] <crutchy> ahh it was a tree
[15:06:01] <crutchy> http://en.wikipedia.org
[15:07:26] <michealpwalls> That's really amazing :O
[15:08:12] <michealpwalls> "A software bug known as a race condition existed in General Electric Energy's Unix-based XA/21 energy management system."
[15:08:15] <michealpwalls> haha!
[15:08:19] <crutchy> anyway, sorry to beat around the bush janrinok. shorts can cause problems if not adequately protected against. if an electric car were to short some kind of power infrastructure i guess it could trip circuit breakers and bring traffic sharing the same supply to a standstill
[15:08:57] <michealpwalls> Yea, that has always made sense. The failover mechanism causes the problem to simply spread exponentially
[15:09:26] <janrinok> That's typical of you - applying logic and commonsense to spoil a perfectly good solution, crutchy!
[15:09:55] <crutchy> i like the idea of electric cars though :-)
[15:10:08] <weeds> Wouldn't the outlet that the car plugs into have a breaker on it? Here in the US I am pretty certain it would.
[15:10:12] <Popeidol> "Shorts can cause problems" is a great slogan
[15:10:17] <Popeidol> probably for a pants manufacturer
[15:10:18] <crutchy> i pay nearly AUD$100 to fill my car with fuel
[15:10:20] <michealpwalls> But, that article mentioned this, that really caught my attention: "and do not try to upload anything to the electrical grid.
[15:10:20] <michealpwalls> "
[15:10:27] <michealpwalls> Damn control chars LOL ^
[15:10:52] <michealpwalls> The site injected so much into that ctrl+c. "Read more at xyz etc."
[15:11:39] <crutchy> hmm i would like to see some explanation of how they do that :-P
[15:11:50] <michealpwalls> It made me wonder, honestly, could an electric vehicle really plug into an outlet and "upload" (I think that's a terrible word, maybe just transfer) a bunch of electricty *into* the grid?
[15:11:58] <crutchy> i guess you could upload to the power grid
[15:12:01] <michealpwalls> If so, would that cause a problem? LOL It sounds odd
[15:12:22] <michealpwalls> I suppose I have a lot to learn about electricty LMAO!
[15:12:30] <crutchy> there's that ethernet over power thing
[15:12:46] Blackmoore|lostatsea is now known as Blackmoore
[15:12:48] <crutchy> transformers would cause a problem for it though
[15:12:52] <Blackmoore> mornin
[15:13:09] <janrinok> hi Blackmoore, Popeidol
[15:13:17] <michealpwalls> mm, maybe that's the goal (Of an attack, I should say) to trip failovers/failsafes in the transformers to bring down the network?
[15:13:25] <crutchy> Blackmoore: hahaha someone threw you a life buoy?
[15:13:26] <michealpwalls> Which would bring down neighbouring networks as the load is balanced
[15:13:55] <Blackmoore> :P
[15:14:14] <Blackmoore> the electrical grid in the us is pretty old.
[15:14:23] <michealpwalls> I think all of them are
[15:14:27] <crutchy> yeah
[15:14:34] <michealpwalls> They're so old, it's confusing... Like it's *all* analog mechanical stuff
[15:14:39] <michealpwalls> That makes very little sense to me LMAO
[15:14:41] <crutchy> good for engineers though :-D
[15:14:46] <michealpwalls> Yea true
[15:14:46] -!- TK [TK!~9ff52002@159.245.ju.y] has joined #Soylent
[15:14:47] <crutchy> we get more work
[15:14:50] <michealpwalls> hahaha
[15:14:52] <michealpwalls> Touche!
[15:14:54] <Blackmoore> yeah it was engineerer to work for 50 years
[15:15:01] <michealpwalls> "Good Canadian jobs tied into that broken electrical grid!"
[15:15:02] <michealpwalls> :D
[15:15:49] <Blackmoore> anyway, power companies dont like replacing anything that isnt obviously broken.
[15:16:08] <Blackmoore> and the transformers are damn expensive to boot
[15:17:02] <TK> Why isn't there some unscrupulous facilities manager who buys new transformers and steals the copper out of the old ones?
[15:17:22] <Blackmoore> if you would want to handle power coming INTO the network from households you have to hook a different type of transformer.
[15:17:36] <michealpwalls> This paragraph is too fucking funny: http://en.wikipedia.org
[15:17:39] <Blackmoore> TK: because the transformers are chuck full of PCB
[15:17:41] <michealpwalls> What kind of monkey designed that system? :O
[15:17:42] <crutchy> tk: he would need to also steal a crane to carry it
[15:18:51] <TK> he's the facility manager, he can bribe somebody
[15:19:05] <Blackmoore> so yeah, if you wanted to take out a power grid you could - theoretically - try to run a generator back into the power lines.
[15:19:15] <TK> a crane-load of copper should be worth enough to bribe some people
[15:19:27] <Blackmoore> but first it should blow the local transformer
[15:20:08] <michealpwalls> Blackmoore: Hrmm! But if it blows the local transformer, would that not --potentially-- cause a series of failures in the area of that transformer? :/
[15:20:18] <crutchy> not sure about in the US but i don't reckon it would work in australia
[15:20:26] <TK> Are you planning to cripple the grid? Is this what I walked into?
[15:20:37] <crutchy> there are fuses on transformers
[15:20:57] <michealpwalls> LMAO TK. No I stumbled upon an article in the TimesOfIsrael about a company engineering security into their [Israel's] electrical grid..
[15:21:00] -!- prospectacle [prospectacle!~3a6b4f4a@n74-623-21-69.mit519.act.optusnet.com.au] has joined #Soylent
[15:21:11] <crutchy> g'day prospectacle
[15:21:11] <prospectacle> good day and greetings
[15:21:16] <michealpwalls> And it made me wonder, are those kinds of attacks even *possible* (Apparently not only are they, but it's stupidly easy to pull off...)
[15:21:17] <Blackmoore> michealpwalls: possibly - and probably - but you cant guarentee it
[15:21:18] <prospectacle> 'sup crutchy.
[15:21:34] <Blackmoore> mornin
[15:22:19] <crutchy> wrote a 1mb map file tonight. i thought it worked yesterday but stdin was limiting to somewhere around 100kb. turned out to be cos i set stdin pipe to nonblocking
[15:22:58] <crutchy> apparently nonblocking stdin pipe is bad, mkay :-P
[15:23:42] <michealpwalls> lol
[15:24:20] <crutchy> it would be so cool if there was a mr garrison voice for siri
[15:25:44] <crutchy> working on a map gif output function now (using php gd)
[15:26:34] <prospectacle> gd is pretty sweet
[15:26:42] <prospectacle> easy to build a complex library from their simple one
[15:27:14] <prospectacle> I wrote a graphing library for work: creatt_bar_graph($values_array), create_pie_graph(), etc
[15:27:42] <prospectacle> it's kind of like <canvas></canvas> but even simpler.
[15:27:49] <michealpwalls> canvas is cool
[15:27:55] <prospectacle> yeah canvas is great
[15:28:04] <michealpwalls> I was playing around with it on the weekends, making triangles and circles and etc.
[15:28:13] <prospectacle> I predict in 5 years most web pages won't be web at all, not really. They'll just be <canvas> + js
[15:28:20] <prospectacle> make it 10 years
[15:28:21] <michealpwalls> It's about the closest I got to being an "artist" :D
[15:28:52] <michealpwalls> I think, you're mostly right yea :)
[15:28:53] <prospectacle> I made a shitty platform game (i.e. collect the jewels, avoid monsters) with canvas, just to test its ability. It's pretty fast.
[15:29:12] <michealpwalls> I think BananaBread is a glimpse of the future "web", hehe.
[15:29:22] <prospectacle> I'm not familiar.
[15:29:24] * prospectacle googles
[15:29:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> *headdesk* why do people bother mod-bombing?
[15:29:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> It's easy as hell to keep max karma even with them spending all 10 points on you every time they get them.
[15:29:45] <michealpwalls> https://developer.mozilla.org
[15:30:48] <michealpwalls> Using a utility called Emscripten, an open source C++/OpenGL game was ported to a JS+WebGL+WebWorkers
[15:31:11] <michealpwalls> So, running natively in your browser without a plugin.
[15:32:06] <prospectacle> themightybuzzard, I requested a maxkarma increase on #staff. So far no response, but we'll see
[15:32:39] <prospectacle> I reckon 200 would be good
[15:33:01] <prospectacle> I honestly. This sounds selfish, but I don't care about my posts as much since I've been 50 for months
[15:33:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> probably not a bad idea. would only take five dedicated mod bombers to cost you an entire day's worth of good karma.
[15:33:28] <prospectacle> I've never had mod points. not sure what I'm doing wrong
[15:33:37] <michealpwalls> LOL
[15:33:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> weird. maybe you're sleeping through them.
[15:34:17] <prospectacle> how do you know if you have them?
[15:34:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> shows on the right side
[15:34:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> also mod buttons in comments when you read them.
[15:34:58] <prospectacle> I see
[15:35:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> but seriously, what are they thinking when a few submissions and a half dozen +1'd comments and you're max again?
[15:36:01] <prospectacle> have you been karma bombed by enemies?
[15:36:13] <prospectacle> I was once rated -1 over-rated, but it was the first mod on the post. So how can it be over-rated?
[15:36:14] <Blackmoore> prospectacle: NC went over a bit of the code for mod points with me. it's a convoluted mess.
[15:36:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> every few days. it's annoying but ineffective.
[15:36:41] <Blackmoore> if you are not active enough - or TOO active you dont get points
[15:37:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> if you're too active there's nothing for you to mod because you've already posted to it.
[15:37:19] <prospectacle> Blackmoore, I guess that's a risk when you take an existing package to implement and modify. It's fascinating to watch the different evolution of pipedot vs SN
[15:37:31] <Blackmoore> he is planning to replace that somehow.
[15:38:12] <prospectacle> I always assumed SN would have the advantage, because no matter what mods were necessary, there's plenty of good stuff to start with.
[15:38:13] <michealpwalls> Isn't pipedot a fresh start though, using PHP?
[15:38:36] <prospectacle> Lately I'm less sure. Maybe the two will equalise sooner that I expected.
[15:38:56] <michealpwalls> As much as I like SN more, I think pipedot will eventually surpass SN
[15:38:57] <Blackmoore> but yeah, i cant recall the number he quoted, but he's already had to rip out thousands on lines of code as t was ancient support for crap
[15:39:04] <michealpwalls> And as time goes on, the gap will only grow faster.
[15:39:10] <prospectacle> michealpwalls. yes, it is. That's the point. from scratch (no baggage) vs existing codebase (lots of baggage but also lots of features already present)
[15:39:19] <michealpwalls> Exactly ^
[15:39:44] <Blackmoore> but we know slash code will scale. Pipedot will have to prove it can
[15:39:46] <prospectacle> But SN hit the ground running as a result. So it just depends on how quickly existing code can be adapted, vs fresh code written
[15:39:56] <crutchy> i'm always modded -1, but i'm a troll that likes to pick fights :-P
[15:39:59] <prospectacle> Blackmoore, right. Slash has already jumped through many hoops, no matter the problems.
[15:40:56] <crutchy> i think i got maybe 1 or 2 +5's
[15:41:09] <prospectacle> wow, bananabread is cool as shit. reminds me of quake and what was that sequel to goldeneye on the 64?
[15:41:23] <prospectacle> the sci fi one?
[15:41:34] <michealpwalls> Yea, the game's Sauerbraten from the Cube 2 engine
[15:41:47] <TK> brb, changing "troll mod" to +6
[15:41:58] <prospectacle> oh it's built on cube/sauerbraten I recognise the editing mode anywhere
[15:42:16] <michealpwalls> Totaly foss. BananaBread is foss too, but it's actually javascript hehe using new html5 tech such as webGL and webworkers
[15:42:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> i get plenty of troll mods too. some legit but most are -1 Disagree.
[15:42:26] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, yes. I see. It's way cool.
[15:42:34] <michealpwalls> Yea! I think that's the future of "web apps" :)
[15:42:49] <michealpwalls> I don't want to be "that guy" and use an HR term, but really, it's "synergy" :D
[15:43:45] <michealpwalls> I think, it raises eyebrows when you think about Emscripten to bring console games back to life and make them platform agnostic ;)
[15:43:52] <michealpwalls> Potential is fucking massive
[15:43:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, it also trades functionality for flashy sparkly
[15:44:07] <prospectacle> I've been a fan of cube for ages. I think webgl is the perfect environment for it. It was designed for quick/easy level editing.
[15:44:31] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: What do you mean?
[15:44:38] <prospectacle> I tried to build my dream town on cube but I got bored because it turns out towns are complicated.
[15:44:42] <prospectacle> Maybe I'll try again.
[15:44:47] <prospectacle> on the webgl version
[15:44:47] <michealpwalls> haha prospectacle
[15:44:48] <michealpwalls> Touche
[15:45:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, i mean i'm a "things should be done with the minimum amount of overhead necessary to achieve peak functionality" kind of guy
[15:45:49] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: Ah, and there's nothing wrong in that! :)
[15:45:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> nearly anything webgl breaks that instantly
[15:46:02] <prospectacle> dream town = massive public square with shops all around, then three layers (rings) of housing blocks. This is one town centre. If you want more you put another town centre. So no one is more than 3 blocks from town centre/square/park/shops.
[15:46:22] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: However, when you define "functionality" how does a game that runs on a *single* platform compare to the exact same game running on any platform that supports html5 (Read: Virtually *every* modern platform, including phones and tablets)
[15:46:38] <prospectacle> themightbuzzard, but accesibility is a feature, too. webgl is instantly accesible by millions of people.
[15:47:08] <crutchy> prospectacle: i have a dream town too
[15:47:16] <prospectacle> crutchy, do tell.
[15:47:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, for games it's likely a good thing. for apps, if you're using it you really, really need to have a reason it can't otherwise be done.
[15:47:24] <michealpwalls> Is it a minecraft town?! :D
[15:47:25] <prospectacle> brb
[15:48:16] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: Yea, there's an old saying too that criticises java hehe. I'll have to paraphrase, but basically, if you don't really know the target platform your app shouldnt' run on it in the first place :P
[15:48:24] <michealpwalls> I get that :D
[15:50:01] <prospectacle> java: write once, run once.
[15:50:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> and you know good and well some chucklehead is going to make heavy use of it in a document editor or something equally silly and i'm going to have to put up with it.
[15:51:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> scuse me. some kids on my lawn. must go yell.
[15:51:33] <crutchy> 150 storey tower in centre, ringed by circular single lane roads with dual lane spokes, maglev trains running round every nth circular road and along the 4 main NESW spokes, lots of underground infrastructure, and a massive r&d centre nearby with a 50km long x 10 runway compex with underground hangar facilities for a fleet of HTOL low earth orbit shuttles developed under the control of a non-profit business empire :-P
[15:52:01] <michealpwalls> LMAO TheMightyBuzzard
[15:52:29] <crutchy> its even worse when they aren't your own
[15:53:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> crutchy, survival or creative?
[15:53:33] <prospectacle> crutchy, sounds intricate. You should write a sci-fi novel set in the world to illustrate how it functions and its benefits.
[15:54:15] <crutchy> nah i'm too lazy for that. i was more interested in the technical and business aspects (funding and politics in particular)
[15:54:30] <crutchy> it would be very difficult to champion such an enterprise
[15:54:44] <crutchy> but its a nice dream :-)
[15:54:51] <michealpwalls> LOL
[15:54:58] <prospectacle> crutchy, difficult, probably. But nothing big worth doing was easy. And no one will champion your causes for you.
[15:55:41] <prospectacle> I can't talk really. I'm full of dreams with no follow through. But I *intend* to follow through. one day, when I get around to it.
[15:55:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, plenty will if you can make a half-valid argument for oppression. it's the hobby of millions.
[15:56:06] <crutchy> it also extends to space stations at lagrange points constructed sequentially till eventually fabricated from steel based on scrap and ores mined on the moon
[15:56:19] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, half-valid but well-funded.
[15:56:21] -!- Subsentient has quit [Quit: Derp.]
[15:57:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> crutchy, can't really use the lagrange points. already functioning stuff in them you'd have to give the boot to.
[15:57:29] <prospectacle> I guess I should say "no one will champion your causes for you until you've dragged them a hundred miles to the start line by your own efforts"
[15:57:44] <prospectacle> or money
[15:57:50] <prospectacle> money is pretty sweet
[15:57:50] <crutchy> TheMightyBuzzard: that would be no problem... simply replace their functionality with onboard equipment
[15:58:13] <crutchy> considering the stations i dream of a kilometres in diameter
[15:58:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, gold is better. more value per weight and easier to club someone to death with.
[15:59:01] <crutchy> doors open when you have cheap, reliable, safe and regular access to low earth orbit... essential for transfer of materials
[15:59:53] <crutchy> TheMightyBuzzard: definitely, though i'm sure sun tsu would argue something about a feather being a more powerful weapon
[15:59:55] <michealpwalls> This has to be what you're talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org
[15:59:56] <michealpwalls> :)
[16:00:28] <michealpwalls> I have too copies of 'The Art of War'
[16:00:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> crutchy, nah, he was a realist. a pen CAN be a more powerful weapon but not if you cut off the hand holding it.
[16:01:02] <michealpwalls> Really interesting reads. One I haven't touched much, because it has authentic "ancient chinese book binding" (Could be marketing hype? Looks fucking cool though)
[16:01:17] <michealpwalls> The book is bound by decorative string, rather than glue
[16:01:18] <michealpwalls> It's really nice
[16:02:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> most hardcovers use both string and glue nowadays. forget what the stitch is called but it's similar to saddle stitching.
[16:02:24] <crutchy> don't know about all that mathematical shit (though i prolly should given what i'm paid for) but getting from surface of the earth to about 100km up at escape velocity is the biggest hurdle, and then lagrange points are points in space where gravity between two bodies equalizes, so maintaining orbit is significantly easier
[16:02:32] <prospectacle> Speaking of the art of war, Mike Tyson said "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." I think that's a good metaphor, even if he didn't intend it as such.
[16:02:41] <crutchy> hahahaha
[16:03:02] <michealpwalls> prospectacle: That's in the book... Although with more elegant wording :)
[16:03:16] <michealpwalls> (paraphrased) 'No military plan survives first contact with the enemy.'
[16:03:17] <michealpwalls> ;)
[16:03:36] <prospectacle> Yeah I only read half of t.a.o.w. I started to get distracted around the time there was detailed discussion of terrain and sun-angle.
[16:03:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> the moon would probably be easier. gravity enough to work in but an escape velocity you could just about achieve with a golf club.
[16:03:38] <michealpwalls> Also, the first casualty of war is the truth. HOOAH! (flex)
[16:03:45] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, makes sense.
[16:03:50] <michealpwalls> Yea but terrain is super important!
[16:03:55] <crutchy> i've read some of the art of war... i think US military strategists take the art of war and spend billions of dollars trying to work out a strategy that is the complete opposite
[16:03:56] <prospectacle> no doubt it is
[16:04:02] <michealpwalls> Oh man I fucking *crush* AI with terrain all the time. AI is such a myth LMAO
[16:04:09] <michealpwalls> Computers are as fucking dumb as rocks when it comes to strategy
[16:04:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> high-speed idiots
[16:04:39] <prospectacle> To change topic abruptly, anyone seen "Penny Dreadfull"?
[16:04:42] <crutchy> "artificial intelligence will never match natural stupidity"
[16:04:55] <michealpwalls> LMAO crutchy. For a fun thought-experiment, in around 2003 just before the U.S military clashed with Iraq for the second time, I wrote up a table from the book and plugged in some basic data..
[16:05:09] <prospectacle> It's a new victorian-era english series. Surprisingly good. Like amc/hbo level of engaging.
[16:05:22] <michealpwalls> Such as: When you invade a far-away land, you must first discuss and make friends with all of their neighbours.... So definately keep that box *unchecked*, the U.S didn't give a fuck.
[16:05:37] <michealpwalls> LMAO and absically, you continue like that until you realize... This war is never going to end, at least, not on terms the U.S favors :)
[16:05:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> can't do victorian. something about it just cheeses me off.
[16:05:46] <michealpwalls> It's a mathematical certainty. Victory cannot be possible :D
[16:06:06] <crutchy> i guess they're sorta in bed with saudi arabia, jordan and israel, though i dunno whether you would call it "friendly"
[16:06:08] <michealpwalls> Sorry, prospectacle. Never heard of it ;)
[16:06:15] <prospectacle> yeah u.s. has been riding the wave since wwII. They think they're king and the rules therefore don't apply.
[16:06:20] <prospectacle> Common mistake.
[16:06:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, except it more or less has.
[16:06:33] <prospectacle> "WEll I've won all the wars so far, I must be special"
[16:06:48] <michealpwalls> crutchy: But the one that actually matters (Iran) is vehemently opposed and argueably the one funding the resistance.. Hense why the resistance has not and probs. will not stop, until Iran is dealt with (Diplomatically or Militarily, according to Sun Tzu.)
[16:06:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> granted not yay, complete success, but close enough for government work.
[16:07:13] <prospectacle> how would one even measure sucess in iraq or afghanistan?
[16:07:21] <prospectacle> "we left"
[16:07:30] <michealpwalls> prospectacle: That's one of the first things you must do.. Define, clearly, what success is.
[16:07:38] <michealpwalls> What *is* victory? If you cannot answer this, you should never go to war :P
[16:07:42] <michealpwalls> It's one of the *first* things in the table :)
[16:07:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> shurg, go by the stated goals.
[16:07:51] <prospectacle> what are they?
[16:07:52] <michealpwalls> Which are?
[16:07:54] <michealpwalls> LOL
[16:08:02] <crutchy> maybe they just thought "pffft.. sun tzu? wtf would a hairy old chinese dead guy know about destroying the axis of evil?"
[16:08:11] <michealpwalls> "Liberate" Iraq people? "Weapons of mass destruction" ? "Terrorists" ?
[16:08:23] <michealpwalls> All of which have not been achieved, and argueably are subjective goals taht may *never* be achieved...
[16:08:27] <crutchy> "enhanced interrogation"
[16:08:30] <crutchy> lol
[16:08:35] <prospectacle> well we can say they literally made sure to empty the place of wmds
[16:08:39] <prospectacle> by verifying there weren't any
[16:08:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> man, it's been years n years but they're a damn sight closer to democracy and unable to breed much in the way of international terror.
[16:08:55] <michealpwalls> LOL
[16:09:00] <crutchy> and warning those with them to get them out
[16:09:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> pretty sure those were a couple of the stated ones
[16:09:11] <weeds> I've been watching and would like to jump in... The US goal in the Middle East is to keep the area unstable!
[16:09:23] <prospectacle> closer to democracy sounds pretty vague. No offence
[16:09:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> weeds, they don't need our help for that.
[16:09:32] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: Well, I don't want to argue facts. I simply do not agree with that opinion, however. I think the Iraqi people suffer more now than they did under Sadam...
[16:09:34] <prospectacle> Also were they able to breed international terror before?
[16:09:41] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: Just because a nation "votes", does not mean they have Democracy.
[16:09:48] <crutchy> weeds: and to spend a fuckload of money they borrow from china
[16:10:13] <crutchy> or just print out of thin air
[16:10:14] <prospectacle> I mean saddam was a prick, but are the iraqi people, or their neighbours, better off now, on average and in aggregate?
[16:10:20] <michealpwalls> weeds: Which is NOT a dumb goal! Sun Tzu chalked that down as "Order out of Chaos" and it's a Roman strategy as well.
[16:10:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, they've got closer than we've got. granted that's not saying much.
[16:10:41] <michealpwalls> It's smart.. However, have they acheived that in Iraq? I think they have lost order rather than gained it..
[16:10:42] <prospectacle> they voted when saddam was in. He won with 99%
[16:10:45] <weeds> THe money doesn't matter. Can't have the middle east stabilize and work together against US. That would be the biggest problem ever.
[16:11:01] <weeds> RIght I didn't mean it negatively.
[16:11:05] <crutchy> prospectacle: but now they are "looked after" by the likes of halliburton and bechtel
[16:11:10] <crutchy> it must be better :-P
[16:11:16] <prospectacle> well I guess so.
[16:11:21] <michealpwalls> Under saddam, there was much more order than there is now.. At least in my opinion. Our control over the region was slipping, however what is the control like *now* in comparison?
[16:11:29] <michealpwalls> When we can't even *safely* patrol the streets anymore? Iraqis have to...
[16:11:37] <michealpwalls> because the body-bags reached unacceptable levels...
[16:11:41] <michealpwalls> Read: American body-bags ;)
[16:12:05] <crutchy> cos iraqis are disposable
[16:12:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, we don't have much in the way of troops left doing anything but training in iraq. do have some civvies though.
[16:12:35] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: Which is policy... Policy aimed at reducing body-bags, nothing more nothing less (As per what I have read)
[16:12:36] <crutchy> 1 million iraqis dead... half children... "we think... we think the price is worth it"
[16:12:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> not because it was unsafe but because obama and his voters wanted us out.
[16:12:42] <prospectacle> u.s. federal govt has no idea how to deal with a military victory, unless they completely occupy/annex the area.
[16:12:52] <prospectacle> Only reason marshall plan worked (big success) is that the people living there were behind it.
[16:13:09] <michealpwalls> No, that's completely illogical. American policy shifted *away* from patrols precisely because of safety... They call it "force protection"
[16:13:11] <michealpwalls> And they were losing it.
[16:13:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, which is basically what should have been done. unless we just wanted to destroy them instead.
[16:13:26] <michealpwalls> prospectacle: Indeed... So too did their neighbours!
[16:13:41] <crutchy> they should just nuke the site from orbit
[16:13:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> can't half-ass something and expect much good to come of it.
[16:13:51] <michealpwalls> No way, that's a no-win situation crutchy!
[16:13:56] <michealpwalls> Can't do that, that's not even on the table (rofl)
[16:14:03] <crutchy> but it is the only way to be sure
[16:14:04] <prospectacle> If you broke it you bought it.
[16:14:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> crutchy, if not for the russians/chinese/etc that would be an extremely good strategy.
[16:14:17] <michealpwalls> LMAO prospectacle. America bought a LOT?
[16:14:21] <prospectacle> yes
[16:14:25] <prospectacle> more than they can chew
[16:14:29] <prospectacle> wait. step back
[16:14:31] <michealpwalls> LMAO
[16:14:39] <prospectacle> replace "America" with "U.S. federal govt"
[16:14:45] <prospectacle> It's more precise, and lesss divisive.
[16:14:49] <Brylarke> Just been reading the chat
[16:14:58] <prospectacle> American people had nothing to do with it. Not really.
[16:15:00] <Brylarke> How did this turn into complaints about politics
[16:15:00] <TK> same here, brylarke
[16:15:04] <prospectacle> most of them were against it.
[16:15:08] <TK> and same question
[16:15:11] <Brylarke> lol
[16:15:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> beats me
[16:15:16] <crutchy> replace "U.S. federal govt" with "Team America: World Police"
[16:15:19] <prospectacle> tk, brylarke, let me scroll up.
[16:15:31] <michealpwalls> Yea true, don't get me wrong guys.. I love Americans. I'm Canadian, I really dont' see a difference between us. When I say "Americans" I strictly am referring to the conduct of the U.S Federal Government...
[16:15:33] <Brylarke> It was all about technology and nice things
[16:15:38] <michealpwalls> </disclaimer>
[16:15:39] <michealpwalls> :)
[16:15:40] <crutchy> with very bad i.n.t.e.l.l.i.g.e.n.c.e.
[16:15:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> think it was talk about ideal cities and lagrange points and such.
[16:15:54] <TK> It was a discussion of book binding, from what I can see
[16:16:05] <michealpwalls> It was me.. LMAO sorry, my bad :P
[16:16:06] <crutchy> and mr garrison
[16:16:13] <michealpwalls> I derailed the train of technology :D
[16:16:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh ya. someone brought up war because of the sun tzu book
[16:16:17] <crutchy> doing something with siri
[16:16:32] <michealpwalls> LOL we're not going to mention any names, though! :D
[16:16:33] <TK> Siri, derail this conversation
[16:16:44] <TK> Ok, the EU is superior to the US
[16:16:52] <michealpwalls> I want a siri-like device, but one that speaks in a very thick english accent
[16:17:01] <michealpwalls> I believe anything told to me in an english accent.
[16:17:06] <michealpwalls> It's obviously intelligent.
[16:17:06] <Brylarke> I dont mind complaining about politics, its a fun sport, it's just i was taken back by how fast that conversation turned
[16:17:07] <prospectacle> it was crutchy's fault. lol
[16:17:11] <prospectacle> he brough up sun tzu
[16:17:15] <crutchy> dammit
[16:17:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> TK, true. it has lower time zone differential from UTC.
[16:17:21] <prospectacle> but we all took the bait, so we're all to blame
[16:17:25] <michealpwalls> LOL Brylarke. IRC is hilarious for how sharp the turns can be
[16:17:25] * crutchy smacks selff
[16:17:44] <prospectacle> don't feel bad crutchy, I love complaining about politics. I can't be alone in this.
[16:18:06] <Brylarke> Actually
[16:18:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, that's just people, yo. brains make the weirdest damned connections.
[16:18:25] <Brylarke> I just want to go full circle for a sec and as a long time gamer, say "fuck browser games"
[16:18:27] <prospectacle> I've been drinking, also
[16:18:29] <michealpwalls> I accept --defeatist-- that I have no control over politics, esp. geopolitical strategy. I find it interesting to comment on and think about, though :)
[16:18:36] <prospectacle> brylarke, but what if they end up being good?
[16:18:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> Brylarke, Seconded.
[16:18:43] <michealpwalls> As a systems analyst, it's very interesting thought-experiments :)
[16:18:47] <Brylarke> Theres always one problem with browser games
[16:18:53] <Brylarke> They're in a browser
[16:18:54] <michealpwalls> LOL TheMightyBuzzard they really do!
[16:19:00] <Brylarke> Browsers inevitably turn shit
[16:19:04] <Brylarke> See: Firefox
[16:19:09] <michealpwalls> haha Brylarke. So true. Browsers are fucking awful..
[16:19:09] <prospectacle> brylarke, is that a problem? Doesn't it mean you can load it faster, and play it from any device?
[16:19:17] <crutchy> Brylarke: what about IRC games?
[16:19:20] * prospectacle likes 2048
[16:19:28] <Brylarke> They are fine, IRC never changes
[16:19:32] <prospectacle> also I played zork on a website the other day
[16:19:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, load it FASTER? F U C K N O.
[16:19:40] <michealpwalls> Absolutely terrible. I swear to god, you have over 60 years of solid Computer Science development... Lessons Learned, Principals of Good Design and "Design Patterns" that solve really complex problems.
[16:19:49] <michealpwalls> Then you have a fucking modern web-browser that ignores all of that.. ALL of it.
[16:19:49] <prospectacle> themightbuzzard, compared to download the game .exe
[16:20:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, that's a one time deal. you generally play games multiple sittings.
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[16:20:32] <michealpwalls> hehe
[16:20:36] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, I feel your pain, but web-browser content is virtually instant. That's a big benefit.
[16:20:43] <prospectacle> also it comes with a free sandbox.
[16:20:56] <michealpwalls> In my honest opinion... I am fucking *amazed* when the browsers start.
[16:21:01] <crutchy> prospectacle: unless your connection sucks or drops out
[16:21:02] <prospectacle> lol
[16:21:04] <michealpwalls> Then amazed to the power of 3 when they actually load a page properly
[16:21:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> like i'm playing around with finding a good remote table top gaming system
[16:21:06] <michealpwalls> It's fucking amazing!
[16:21:08] <prospectacle> crutchy, true
[16:21:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> web based ones are absolutely too fucking slow even if they do have the most features.
[16:21:25] * crutchy hates game lag
[16:21:27] <prospectacle> I do almost everything from browser. Email, to-do-list, irc
[16:21:34] <prospectacle> a lot of dev.
[16:21:36] <prospectacle> I'm biased
[16:21:39] <prospectacle> browsers++
[16:21:39] <deadpeas> karma - browsers: 1
[16:21:40] <Brylarke> Oh, disclaimer
[16:21:43] <prospectacle> lol
[16:21:46] <michealpwalls> As much as I hate web-development, I do a lot of it :(
[16:21:49] <Brylarke> I own a NES and still play it regularly
[16:21:56] <Brylarke> I may not be the target of browser games
[16:21:56] <michealpwalls> Primarily what my job has been the past 4 months :/
[16:21:58] <Brylarke> You decide
[16:21:59] <crutchy> i like developing web apps, and i use one a lot at work, but i dunno about games
[16:22:16] <prospectacle> I think games are the last piece of the puzzle,
[16:22:36] <prospectacle> They're astronomically better now than 5 yrs ago. In 5 yrs time they'll be "good enough" to replace everything else.
[16:22:40] <crutchy> the civ game im working on for irc is interesting though
[16:22:47] <crutchy> some good challenges
[16:22:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, never happen.
[16:22:48] <michealpwalls> Everytime I develop another web-app, I become slightly more cynacle about web browsers.
[16:22:53] <prospectacle> crutchy, how is it going?
[16:23:02] <Brylarke> The what for what?
[16:23:08] <prospectacle> themightbuzzard, what's to stop it? (not a rhetorical question)
[16:23:10] <Brylarke> Explain
[16:23:12] <pingus> what is this about an irc civ game?
[16:23:13] <crutchy> exec is an awesome foundation for IRCiv
[16:23:37] <Brylarke> And it had better not be written in PHP
[16:23:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, dedicated graphics cards being bought by the consumers vs the game portals makes a huge difference in the bottom line.
[16:23:51] <crutchy> hahaha it can be written in any language Brylarke
[16:24:08] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, what bottom line?
[16:24:14] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: Nah, damn you must be old! LOL discrete video cards are dinasaurs bro. SoC is in now (Systems on a Chip)
[16:24:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's simply cheaper to make and distribute games than to web host them.
[16:24:30] <michealpwalls> Where CPUs, GPUs, memory controllers and everything is all packed into a single chip ;)
[16:24:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, pc gaming has surpassed console gaming yet again. care to rephrase?
[16:24:44] <crutchy> i'm doing the mapping module in php, and exec is php, but other modules can be perl, haskell, shell, whatever
[16:25:15] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard: webgl puts most of the grunt work on the client.
[16:25:20] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: No. SoC is the future. No bandwidth limitations, no latency as data is moved around buss' from one chip to another... It's all in the same chip
[16:25:21] <crutchy> modules just communicate using an IRC-like messaging syntax
[16:25:21] <Brylarke> Ewwww
[16:25:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> soc is nice n all but gamers who care about gaming performance do not use them
[16:25:23] <michealpwalls> and it's all sharing the same meory
[16:25:30] <Brylarke> :-p
[16:25:40] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: Besides.. in 2014, what is a "console" ?
[16:25:41] <michealpwalls> :)
[16:25:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, and it's all unupgradable crap
[16:25:54] <michealpwalls> haha TheMightyBuzzard true, very true...
[16:26:00] <michealpwalls> Nothing I can say about that :)
[16:26:15] <prospectacle> crutchy, I say go for it. PHP gets a lot of hate but somehow powers most of the web.
[16:26:38] <michealpwalls> prospectacle: This is going to clear all the Karma I have, but here goes: Most of the criticisms about PHP are actually due to programmer ignorance.
[16:26:39] <Brylarke> That's probably the most glowing endorsement for PHP you can ever give
[16:26:41] <michealpwalls> *ducks*
[16:26:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> may come a day when they just drop vid cards because soc is kicking out that good or better but today is not that day.
[16:26:52] <crutchy> the game has a lot of scope, and much of that scope can be other languages
[16:27:07] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, it's a funny language, but yeah, you have to learn to use it right, or you'll shoot yourself in 7 different feet.
[16:27:22] <crutchy> really at this stage only the IRC interface and common memory buffer is in php
[16:27:23] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: I disagree! It's all about latency man. The speed at which data can *move* is what limits PCs in this day, not horse-power. You are spot on that a discrete card provides more raw horsepower....
[16:27:37] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, but that's a strength of web-games. Webgl is implemented by browser, can use whatever video hardware is available.
[16:27:50] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: However that top horsepower comes with a massive latency... As data must *first* come from your hard disk and into ram.. From ram into the CPU, from CPU back into the bus and then down to your GPU..
[16:27:56] <michealpwalls> Then finally, your GPU can decode the instructions..
[16:28:07] <michealpwalls> With SoC.. It's pumped at blazing speeds directly into the SoC and bam..
[16:28:09] <michealpwalls> Magic happens
[16:28:23] <michealpwalls> There is no trips anymore.. No highways full of "traffic jams" as all chips try to move data on the same bus
[16:28:25] <crutchy> michealpwalls: solid state + buffering
[16:28:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, yes, it can do that. horribly inefficiently compared to a non-browser game.
[16:28:34] <michealpwalls> oh my god with solid state it's fucking instant now
[16:28:42] <michealpwalls> It's incredible. You have to measure shit in nanoseconds LMAO
[16:29:06] <prospectacle> themightybuzzard, but the key variable is distribution. Browers can distribute new games/levels/content like that (snaps fingers theatrically).
[16:29:13] <crutchy> most new pcs come with a solid state drive
[16:29:28] <michealpwalls> prospectacle: I think that's the catch-22 though. *most* browsers can't *really* do full hardware acceleration like their Preferences window claims :/
[16:29:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, that is a huge improvement but latency is not the only issue. moore's law has effectively stopped if you were using Hz as your comparison.
[16:29:37] <michealpwalls> And it's purely for security reasons why they can't (And shouldn't!)
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[16:29:53] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, but how long until they can, 2 years, 4 at the max?
[16:29:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, so can steam and any other downloadable service.
[16:30:11] <michealpwalls> That's true! I used to resist the new DDRs so much because each improvement caused major latency increases... DDR1, 2, 3 etc.
[16:30:15] <crutchy> sedbot: s/has/has finally woken up and joined/
[16:30:17] <prospectacle> themightbuzzard, you have to download steam though. Browser is on every device.
[16:30:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> not as fast the initial time but orders of magnitude faster on play 2+
[16:30:29] <michealpwalls> The bandwidth increased, but latency increased along with it. I hated that concept. But meh, look at me know LMAO
[16:30:35] <michealpwalls> DDR 5 and meh, there's no stopping it :/
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[16:30:40] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v FoobarBazbot|afk] by juggler
[16:30:55] <prospectacle> bandwidth gets faster and cheaper by the day. What remains constant is that everyone has a browser. But not everyone has any other thing.
[16:30:58] <crutchy> g'day FoobarBazbot|afk, sedbbot
[16:31:00] <michealpwalls> The theory is, I suppose... Who cares how long it takes if you can pump astronomical amounts of data out per cycle :/
[16:31:06] FoobarBazbot|afk is now known as FoobarBazbot
[16:31:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> also, if you want to talk latency, going across the Internet is the most extreme latency you can possibly get.
[16:31:37] <crutchy> yeah cos the NSA needs to inspect everything :-P
[16:31:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> well short of tcp/cp
[16:31:48] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: Indeed! It's all about the future though. Plus the NSA will be able to pay closer attention to your gaming habbits :P
[16:32:11] <michealpwalls> OMG the phone in the cubicle beside me hasn't stopped for 40 minutes straight
[16:32:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> it has a place in the future but it will not take over the future of gaming.
[16:32:18] <michealpwalls> Who the fuck does that? hang up already nobody is there!
[16:32:48] <crutchy> throw it out the window... the chicks around you will think you're spontaneous and want to take you to a closet
[16:33:05] <michealpwalls> I think it has serious potential, TheMightyBuzzard. Think of all the writing on the wall right now... Massive outcry over the Windows 8 and 8.1 platforms... Valve porting a gigantic library of games to a brand new target (Linux) and other similar pushes..
[16:33:06] <prospectacle> when I want to play a game (not a serious gamer) i like to just click a link and there it is. No permission, no insallations, no purchase. Just load the url and you're away.
[16:33:10] <Blackmoore> michealpwalls: switch the damn thing to go to voicemail
[16:33:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> people always get excited about the shiny new thing but it rarely pans out to be a proper shift in the paradigm.
[16:33:25] <crutchy> pick it up and talk in a reallly bad chinese voice
[16:33:40] <prospectacle> the web is the shift in paradigm though
[16:33:48] <Blackmoore> "City morgue, you stab em we slab em"
[16:33:50] <michealpwalls> The writing is on the way, there's huge mobility right now in the gaming industry... a web-based platform will give the development studios the freedom they want, to move to any platform (Or all platforms) while dramatically decreasing cost
[16:33:54] <prospectacle> Hard to argue it's gradually taking over more and more territory.
[16:33:55] <crutchy> or do a kim jong il team america impression
[16:34:11] <michealpwalls> LOL crutchy
[16:34:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, yeah. we may actually be seeing people finally able to ditch windows in good numbers but i wouldn't go much beyond that.
[16:34:14] <prospectacle> Games might be one of the last frontiers, but they'll fall like everything else has
[16:34:16] <michealpwalls> Team America was too much LOL
[16:34:20] <crutchy> "now take your weapons of mass distwuction and get the fuck out"
[16:34:32] <prospectacle> "do you have any idea how fucking busy I am"
[16:35:48] <Brylarke> I think gaming has reached the point where games are easy to make and theres more good games than anyone can hope to play, meaning a loosening of the grip that the current giants have on the industry (ie console makers/publishers)
[16:36:05] <prospectacle> Brylarke, I sure hope so
[16:36:18] <TK> Mobile gaming is doing that more than anything
[16:36:26] <prospectacle> Some blockbuster games are awesome, but you hear stories about the big studios...
[16:36:27] <Brylarke> Pah
[16:36:35] <Brylarke> Mobile games arent proper games in that sense
[16:36:40] <TK> and that's the direction the "I don't want to install something, I just want to click to play" audience is going
[16:36:44] <TK> Semantics
[16:36:48] <prospectacle> TK, I agree
[16:36:55] <Brylarke> They are just capturing a new/different audience
[16:37:06] <TK> We're talking about browser games, that's basically the same thing as mobile
[16:37:10] <TK> different inputs
[16:37:25] <TK> Simple, straightforward time-wasters
[16:37:33] <michealpwalls> Soon there wont be a difference ;)
[16:37:50] <prospectacle> I saved the 2048 webpage to my phone, so I can play it without going online.
[16:37:52] <prospectacle> That's the future
[16:38:01] <Brylarke> They aren't going to affect the gaming industry itself
[16:38:02] <TK> I hope so, prospectacle
[16:38:15] <TK> I want to be able to cache a game on my phone's web broswer and play it that way
[16:38:27] <TK> instead of installing a game with 10^10 permissions
[16:38:41] <Brylarke> Don't get me started on permissions
[16:38:46] <michealpwalls> The Unity 3D engine can take inputs from a plethora of devices. My cube 'n ball demo runs on any platform you can throw it on (Practically) and control the ball using random input devices... wasd on keyboard, up/down/left/right arrows on keyboard, mouse gestures, touch input, accelerometer data from mobile devices.
[16:38:57] <prospectacle> Brylarke, there's industry (making money) and there's consumers (playing games). Very different. See apple vs android for example of this distinction. One gets money, one gets users.
[16:39:01] <michealpwalls> Anything can move the ball. Run it on any POSIX system, just double-click it and start moving the ball :)
[16:39:05] <michealpwalls> With whatever input device you have
[16:39:08] <TK> Permissions is why I hope you are right, brylarke, or whoever said that gaming should move to browsers
[16:39:22] <TK> But I don't think consoles will ever go away
[16:39:50] <TK> I just pray to god they stop their current trend of combining every damn media option into one device and serving adds
[16:39:59] <michealpwalls> I think, *that* is the future of gaming.. Not buying "cub 'n ball, XBox edition" for $60, and then "cube 'n ball, PS4 edition" for $40 (It's cheaper 'cause it's Sony augmented price) and $80 for "cube 'n ball, Windows PC" edition but don't try to run the PC edition on your OS X machine...
[16:40:06] <TK> Or just that the xbone fails, I'd settle for that
[16:40:07] <michealpwalls> LMAO that's retarded paradigm in my opinion ^
[16:40:08] <prospectacle> TK, surely consoles can't have much longer to live. They're just PCs with uniform specs
[16:40:18] <michealpwalls> Buy a game, run it on whatever device you have handy at that time. I think, that's the future :)
[16:40:23] <Brylarke> PC games are usually cheaper actually
[16:40:38] <Brylarke> And yes, I think consoles will slowly die off
[16:40:40] <TK> I agree they don't have many advantages over a console, but there is one important one
[16:40:45] <TK> "it just works"
[16:40:51] <michealpwalls> Yea, consoles have that ^
[16:40:54] <prospectacle> yes, that is an advantage
[16:40:56] <TK> If manufacturers can keep that up, they'll be fine
[16:40:57] <michealpwalls> That's what *SO MANY* of my friends buy consoles for.
[16:41:05] <Brylarke> Also the "it just works" thing is less applicable these days
[16:41:07] <TK> Most people aren't tweakers
[16:41:10] <prospectacle> but that applies to (modest) browser games too. So when they catch up...
[16:41:16] <michealpwalls> They don't *want* to update drivers.. they don't *want* to do *anything*, really.. They just want to sit down, turn it on, pickup a controller and play.
[16:41:20] <Brylarke> Since consoles got introduced to the internet
[16:41:20] <TK> That's why I said "if"
[16:41:25] <michealpwalls> Hell some want to even skip the "turn it on" part, just pickup the controller and play LMAO
[16:41:29] <TK> totally agree, brylarke
[16:41:35] <TK> That's why I don't own any consoles
[16:41:50] <Brylarke> I go to gaming tournaments, where sometimes "it just works" doesn't exist
[16:41:54] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Police Use New Tool to Source Crowds for Evidence - http://sylnt.us - will-it-work?-taking-bets-now
[16:41:54] <TK> Or any titles on release date
[16:42:05] <Brylarke> Almost always because of the internet
[16:42:05] <michealpwalls> Also, what prospectacle said it also true. That "It Just Works" is one of the largest driving factors for web-based gaming platforms...
[16:42:08] <michealpwalls> They will.. just work :)
[16:42:33] <TK> If Sony, MS (and Ninendo?) keep releasing consoles in beta, they won't last more than two more generations
[16:42:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> I really hate telephones. Calling me is saying "whatever piddly shit I want to talk about is more important than completely derailing whatever you're doing"
[16:43:02] <michealpwalls> You wont get an error saying "Install this, poke this bunny and rub this cat's fur counter clockwise for 14 seconds" before being able to play... They can just click a URL and start playing.
[16:43:19] <prospectacle> themightbuzzard, I know how you feel. But people need to learn to use the off button. It means you might miss an emergency. IT's a bit of an extreme sport. But it's an option.
[16:43:25] <Brylarke> For a lot of people Steam games "just work" to the extent that consoles do
[16:43:27] <prospectacle> the phone works for you, not the other way around.
[16:43:33] <TK> I really hate TheMightyBuzzard, he's saying "whatever piddly shit I want to talk about is more important than your discussion on consoles"
[16:43:39] <TK> /s
[16:43:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> TK, well obviously it is.
[16:44:08] -!- mechanicjay [mechanicjay!~jhowe@Soylent/Staff/Sysop/mechanicjay] has joined #Soylent
[16:44:08] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v mechanicjay] by juggler
[16:44:25] <TK> Being on the dialing end of the phone, it's usually my preference over email
[16:44:35] <TK> For anything that isn't 100% unambiguous
[16:44:39] <michealpwalls> I hate phones
[16:44:42] <michealpwalls> The guy from HR calls me all the time
[16:44:47] <michealpwalls> It's weird and I feel odd
[16:44:49] <michealpwalls> LOL
[16:44:51] <Landon> I agree, phones are terrible
[16:44:57] <michealpwalls> Just email me, it's 2014 ffs
[16:44:57] <Landon> I've got poor hearing if I can't see your mouth move
[16:44:58] <michealpwalls> LOL
[16:45:07] <michealpwalls> I'm terrible at oral communication
[16:45:30] <prospectacle> I always answer the phone, but I'm theoretically against doing so.
[16:45:39] <michealpwalls> hah mostly I don't even answer it
[16:45:41] <prospectacle> People need to turn phones on when they want to be contacted, and off otherwise
[16:45:47] <Landon> I get a call ocne a month, so that's fine :)
[16:45:53] <michealpwalls> I'll look at it and let the machien get it. It was designed to answer telephone calls :)
[16:45:53] <prospectacle> We're not slaves yet, god damn it
[16:45:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> texts are somewhat better, emails better still. basically anything that I can notice myself without it demanding my attention.
[16:45:55] <Landon> can't turn off my work landline
[16:45:57] <Blackmoore> see i think there is a place in the home for a console, but it will be more like a Ouya or a wii. small form factor, plug it in and go.
[16:46:06] <prospectacle> txt is better, I agree.
[16:46:19] <prospectacle> landon, well if you're paid to answer it that is different
[16:46:24] <michealpwalls> Blackmoore: I agree, except I have a Wii U and it's fucking awful.
[16:46:25] <TK> You can run an SNES emulator on the ouya, yes?
[16:46:28] <michealpwalls> It does not "just work"
[16:46:30] <michealpwalls> POS.
[16:46:33] <Landon> prospectacle: it's not in my paperwork!!!!
[16:46:34] <Landon> :P
[16:46:39] <prospectacle> lol
[16:46:42] <prospectacle> you need a raise
[16:46:48] <Landon> I agree there
[16:46:57] <Blackmoore> well yeah; that is what is wrong with the wiiU, and to some degree ouya too
[16:47:09] <prospectacle> let's all call landon's work and say he was really helpful on the phone and should get a raise
[16:47:10] <TK> What about a text that says "call me"
[16:47:13] <Landon> haha
[16:47:18] <michealpwalls> I have never been more disappointed with a console than I am with the Wii U. It could be that I was very excited going into it, although I doubt that.
[16:47:20] <Landon> "What secrets has he been leaking?"
[16:47:33] <Landon> michealpwalls: I'm lukewarm about my wii :( or I would have traded up to a wii u
[16:47:36] <michealpwalls> It's a massive, epic failure of software engineering. Unbelievable :/
[16:47:38] <Blackmoore> the interface, and experience have got to evolve.
[16:47:45] <prospectacle> pity, nintendo usually won and "playability" if only because it was aimed at children
[16:47:53] <Landon> on one hand, I love the games, on the other hand, it's just not as easy to get to as my steam box
[16:47:56] <Blackmoore> or consoles will become this generations laser disc;
[16:48:29] <michealpwalls> Nintendo half-assed the Wii U. When I mean Half-Assed, I mean they clearly hired 5 undergrad students to write the Wii U operating system's support for Wii software in a 2 day event hosted at the local pub.
[16:48:39] <Landon> I think something involving steam and chromecast would really take off
[16:48:48] <Landon> chromecast with 4 usb ports for controllers :)
[16:48:49] <TK> I agree
[16:48:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> Blackmoore, honestly, there's plenty of room in all the markets. but only if the companies haven't over-leveraged themselves.
[16:48:56] <TK> and bluetooth
[16:49:03] <michealpwalls> Literally, this is what happens: Put in a Wii disc, and you are prompted with a choice. If you choose No, you dont' get to play your Wii game. If you choose Yes, things get really interesting.
[16:49:10] <michealpwalls> First, a fucking virtual machine is fired up..
[16:49:11] <TK> But I would prefer the option for an IR usb controller
[16:49:12] <prospectacle> Is chromecast a wifi dongle that goes into your tv or what?
[16:49:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> if they need high growth to stay in business, they're fucked.
[16:49:16] <prospectacle> I see ads for it on hulu
[16:49:18] <Landon> yep prospectacle
[16:49:29] <Landon> I'm not 100% sure of the use cases
[16:49:37] <Landon> but I know you can forward some video/streaming services from android tablets
[16:49:39] <michealpwalls> Once up, it proceeds to boot the fucking CLASSIC Wii operating system, in a sandboxed Virtual Machine. Sound great? No? Good, 'cause you realize that this sandbox prevents the classic Wii operating system from interfacing with ALL OF THE WII U HARDWARE!
[16:49:40] <Landon> and from chrome
[16:49:44] <prospectacle> I guess it's a bit easier than an hdmi
[16:49:52] <michealpwalls> Fucking disaster of a system. I want to punch a Nintendo engineer in the face for the Wii U.
[16:49:58] <prospectacle> lol
[16:50:18] <michealpwalls> Then.. It gets better trust me
[16:50:39] <prospectacle> are the mario games still fun?
[16:50:49] <michealpwalls> LMAO it "auto-updates". Now when I say "auto-updates" I mean it fucking clogs your network at random times of the day and downloads retarded amounts of uncompressed garbage. What does it do with it? Nothing, of course.
[16:50:52] <Brylarke> They probably always will be fun
[16:50:55] <michealpwalls> It waits until you want to play a fucking game...
[16:51:04] <Brylarke> Just don't trust nintendo to do anything other than make fun games
[16:51:04] <michealpwalls> THEN it proceeds to install all that fucking garbage it downloaded (dull)
[16:51:08] <michealpwalls> You know.. When you want to play.
[16:51:20] <michealpwalls> LMAO I could rant all day abou tthat fucking steaming pile of shit...
[16:51:21] <prospectacle> some companies adapt, some die.
[16:51:34] <prospectacle> I'm amazed, shocked that aol is still a massive and profitable company
[16:51:39] <michealpwalls> haha
[16:51:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> and some get a bail-out
[16:51:45] <michealpwalls> ^ hahaha
[16:51:51] <prospectacle> maybe nintendo need to move to a steam-like system
[16:51:54] <prospectacle> multi-platform.
[16:52:05] <michealpwalls> Yea, Nintendo *cannot* do Systems Programming.
[16:52:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh and some say suck it because they're the only game in town
[16:52:08] <michealpwalls> They are fucking incapable...
[16:52:23] <Blackmoore> http://xkcd.com
[16:52:25] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, yes, when that's an option
[16:52:30] <michealpwalls> When it comes to Application Programming, sure! I love their games.. So much fun, so elegant...
[16:52:35] <prospectacle> who wouldn't want to be a monopoly. IT's basically free money.
[16:52:41] <michealpwalls> But, whoa. Their operating system is straight out of the fucking 1950s
[16:52:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, yeah. ps3 was prolly the hands down best console ever as far as systems programming goes.
[16:52:56] <michealpwalls> The PS3 is such an awesome machine...
[16:53:08] <michealpwalls> Unbeleivable horsepower for the money and yea, very solid software architecture!
[16:53:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> truly, even if I do have to do a rain dance nowadays to un-nerf the ability to install linux.
[16:54:06] <prospectacle> I always log into irc as a side project, then I stop doing everything else
[16:54:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> i mean that alone put them at the tip top of the list unless you include pcs into consideration.
[16:54:26] <prospectacle> thanks a lot, guys. Stop being so interesting.
[16:54:42] <michealpwalls> LOL prospectacle. I'm at work right now :/
[16:54:46] <prospectacle> lol
[16:54:50] <michealpwalls> Couldn't agree more :)
[16:55:10] <Brylarke> Oh, I stopped buying nintendo consoles when I realised purchased digital games can't be transferred over consoles
[16:55:30] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: PS3 even beat out PCs in it's height, in my opinion. You simply couldn't build an equiv. PC machine for that price-point :/
[16:55:32] <Brylarke> Presumably because their back-end systems and their priorities suck
[16:55:34] <TK> I guess it must be Friday
[16:55:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> guess i could just post links to trees
[16:55:45] <michealpwalls> It wasn't even possible, not even you crawled newegg all month for the hottest deals and built it yourself :/
[16:55:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> that's not terribly interesting
[16:55:49] <michealpwalls> Still wouldn't undercut that PS3 price
[16:55:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> The Larch: https://upload.wikimedia.org
[16:56:22] <TK> Just looking at that triggers my allergies
[16:56:28] <michealpwalls> haha tk
[16:56:31] <prospectacle> I appreciate the effort, TheMightyBuzzard, but that's a very interesting tree
[16:56:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, yeah, they were losing money on them
[16:57:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, true. I blame Python for that.
[16:57:13] <TK> I don't think you don't want to be productive because you're on IRC, you're on IRC because you don't want to be productive
[16:57:39] <prospectacle> it's truly an inescapable cycle.
[16:57:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> the brit blokes not the anal about whitespace scripting language
[16:58:01] <prospectacle> wait what?
[16:58:10] <TK> yeah, I didn't get that either
[16:58:12] <prospectacle> is that tree from a sketch?
[16:58:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> http://www.youtube.com
[16:58:26] <prospectacle> a shrubbery, all grown up?
[16:58:32] <stdhell> Number 1!
[16:59:19] <stdhell> http://www.youtube.com
[16:59:30] <prospectacle> lol
[16:59:34] * stdhell really should read up...
[16:59:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> stderr, glad someone got it. don't feel quite as old now.
[17:00:46] <prospectacle> well if we're having an irc, youtube, monty-python party, the spanish inquisition never gets old
[17:00:46] <prospectacle> http://www.youtube.com
[17:00:57] <michealpwalls> hah
[17:01:02] <stdhell> prospectacle: Well, I didn't expect that...
[17:01:16] <michealpwalls> I like Monty Python's re-enactment of the battle of britain
[17:01:56] <michealpwalls> WAit no, it was the battle of pearl harbour I think
[17:01:57] <michealpwalls> LMAO
[17:02:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> i like how the swarmy-mob-of-over-reaction is now hashtagged #twitterinquisition
[17:02:10] <prospectacle> one of the crossbeams has gone out of skew on the treadle
[17:03:02] <stdhell> I hate matlab...
[17:04:03] <stdhell> Well, actually, I hate people who run 5 matlab processes. Each of them using between 600 and 700% CPU according to top.
[17:04:14] <prospectacle> matlab hates everyone
[17:04:29] <stdhell> load average: 163.60
[17:04:57] <stdhell> Someone is going to be an ex-parrot soon...
[17:05:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> ahhh, good ole Norwegian Blue
[17:05:43] <stdhell> Oh, I think root noticed those processes too. Now the load is "only" 64.42
[17:06:16] <TK> I hope and pray for your sakes that none of you answer this in the affirmative, but has anyone here ever had the displeasure to work with windows xp 64 bit edition?
[17:06:47] <prospectacle> what?! that's not a thing, surely
[17:06:48] <michealpwalls> It's basically vista, only without the UI "improvements"
[17:07:02] <TK> I think I would like vista better
[17:07:07] <michealpwalls> Also, found it: http://youtu.be
[17:07:21] <TK> I can't even open My Computer without waiting five minutes for the window to refresh
[17:08:11] * stdhell points TK to the download link on http://www.debian.org
[17:08:24] <TK> If this were my computer, I would gladly do so
[17:08:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> TK, yup. it's half-baked crap.
[17:08:37] <stdhell> Load: 12.83
[17:08:50] <michealpwalls> TK: Wait, is that "Windows XP x64" or "Windows XP 64-bit Edition" ?
[17:08:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> 7 is the way to go if you have to use windows and have to have 64 bit.
[17:08:56] <michealpwalls> There's a massive difference hehe
[17:08:58] <stdhell> And suddenly the server is much more usable than earlier...
[17:09:02] <TK> If this was a pan of brownies, it spent ten minutes in the oven while it was preheating to 350 F
[17:09:06] <TK> x64
[17:09:12] <michealpwalls> Ahhh, that's your problem ;)
[17:09:15] <michealpwalls> What a POS that is LOL
[17:09:33] <TK> "Professional x64 edition"
[17:09:51] <michealpwalls> The "Windows XP 64-bit Edition" is a massive change in code-base. It actually runs the same kernel as Windows Server 2003 and is what Vista became
[17:10:02] <stdhell> TK: Is there anything professional about Windows?
[17:10:07] <michealpwalls> Whereas... The XP "x64" edition is XP with some hackish workarounds to let it run 64-bit software
[17:10:59] <TK> +stdhell, only in that some professions are forced to use it
[17:11:12] <stdhell> Here we go again... Load: 287.52
[17:11:45] <TK> It has been the bane of my office existence for a good year and a half
[17:12:30] <TK> luckily I was able to disable "windows search" and some of the other more pointless features
[17:12:45] <michealpwalls> WoW64 is my bane
[17:12:49] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, that re-enactment sketch reminded me of stewart lee
[17:12:52] <prospectacle> http://www.youtube.com
[17:12:57] <michealpwalls> What a disaster. That's the model Nintendo clearly used to design Wii U :)
[17:13:13] <michealpwalls> hehe prospectacle. Monty Python humour kills me
[17:13:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> I really don't have a bane. Most of the folks I admin for listen to me when I tell them something.
[17:13:51] <stdhell> 355.68 :-(
[17:13:53] <prospectacle> stewart lee is a comedians comedian. He's always telling the audience they're not sophisticated enough to get his jokes, etc.
[17:14:01] <michealpwalls> pfft TheMightyBuzzard.. Nobody listens to me! :(
[17:14:13] <michealpwalls> I get pulled in contradictory directions from different people.. daily :/
[17:14:29] <TK> Can you tell my IT department to abandon this POS? If they'll listen to you
[17:14:36] <michealpwalls> LOL
[17:14:50] <stdhell> I'll go do something complete different until the server can be used again. :-(
[17:14:58] <prospectacle> TK what's the phone number? I'll call and let them know "Hi I'm from windows support department"
[17:15:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> TK, only works for people who're paying me absurdly low amounts to admin their shat.
[17:15:07] -!- TK_ [TK_!~9ff52002@159.245.ju.y] has joined #Soylent
[17:15:12] <TK_> Firefox 28 crashes again!
[17:15:13] <michealpwalls> Oh TK... The IT department here hasn't even finished their "upgrade" of IE from 9 to 10... I estimate that at least 40% of the machines in this org. are running IE9 and the other 60% are running IE10.
[17:15:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> TK, only works for people who're paying me absurdly low amounts to admin their shat.
[17:15:22] <michealpwalls> IE11 is nowhere to be seen, of course...
[17:15:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> part of the tradeoff. i get less money but i don't have to fight them because someone read an article or talked to a sales rep.
[17:15:51] <michealpwalls> TK: You actually run Firefox? hehe that's so cute :P
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[17:16:05] <TK_> It's the momentum more than anything
[17:16:41] <TK_> Noscript is my friend
[17:16:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> pffft, FF is still hands down the best browser to do initial web dev on.
[17:17:08] <michealpwalls> Oh man that's so wrong :O
[17:17:08] <TK_> I know, I know, I could use seamonkey
[17:17:11] <prospectacle> What's better than firefox? All the others are controlled by publicly traded, for profit corporations
[17:17:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> chrome is almost usable.
[17:17:17] <michealpwalls> Not sure where to even begin. Although I respect your opinion!
[17:17:35] <TK_> ...so that's how you derail the IRC convos
[17:17:42] <TK_> This is even better than religion
[17:17:47] <prospectacle> yes
[17:17:50] <prospectacle> more important, too
[17:17:54] <TK_> heh
[17:17:54] <michealpwalls> prospectacle: That's where you're wrong and that's why it's cute... Firefox, too, is controlled by a publicly traded, for profit corporation. It's called the Mozilla Corporation.
[17:17:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> c-c-c-c-c-convo-breaker!
[17:18:00] <michealpwalls> Or.. Didn't you know? :)
[17:18:21] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, they're not for profit.
[17:18:28] <michealpwalls> ... Did you know 90% of the profits from the Mozilla Corporation come from Google?
[17:18:29] -!- Space_Man [Space_Man!~Space_Man@91-886-365-69.static.enta.net] has joined #Soylent
[17:18:37] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, funding, not profits
[17:18:41] -!- TK has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[17:18:57] <michealpwalls> https://en.wikipedia.org
[17:19:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, not for profit does not mean there are no profits
[17:19:12] <michealpwalls> Welcome to your future, boys :)
[17:19:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> it means that is not the goal of the entity
[17:19:36] <michealpwalls> "he corporation also distributes and promotes these products. Unlike the non-profit Mozilla Foundation, and the Mozilla open source project, founded by the now defunct Netscape Corporation, the Mozilla Corporation is a taxable entity."
[17:19:42] <michealpwalls> That's the highlight of the article. The executive summary, if you will.
[17:19:56] <prospectacle> next sentence: "The Mozilla Corporation reinvests all of its profits back into the Mozilla projects"
[17:20:08] <michealpwalls> At whomes discretion?
[17:20:15] <TK_> and your preferred browser is...?
[17:20:37] <michealpwalls> 'cause I know damned well, I'm a volunteer and nobody gives a shit about my opinion... Which is to fix outstanding bugs in the rendering engine. That's not a priority though... However tracking browser habbits *is*
[17:20:42] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, its only shareholder is the not-for-profit mozilla foundation.
[17:20:49] <michealpwalls> Hense: Mozilla Social, Mozilla Persona and the Mozilal "Personalized Web" projects.
[17:20:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, google loses money on chrome. they should be way more up your alley than moz
[17:20:57] <michealpwalls> They get heavy funding... Fixing Gecko? No funding.
[17:21:13] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, therefore, it's effectively a not for profit company
[17:21:37] <michealpwalls> Well, semantics is one thing but in practice, I fundamentally disagree...
[17:21:42] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, I'm not in favour of losing money, I'm against publicly traded joint-stock companies.
[17:21:47] <michealpwalls> Mozilla is a profit driven entity now..
[17:22:01] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, and in whose pockets does the profit end up?
[17:22:08] <michealpwalls> I hate to be the bringer of such bad news, guys, but that's how it is. They don't listen to anybody's opinion if it doesn't make them money...
[17:22:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, shouldn't be. nothing wrong with them. now bad management that focuses only on the short term, that's bad.
[17:22:17] <michealpwalls> prospectacle: Who knows? That's a good question....
[17:22:23] <prospectacle> If moziall corp, is owned by mozilla foundation which is nfp, the money can only go back into operations
[17:22:23] <TK_> so...seamonkey?
[17:22:25] <TK_> Opera?
[17:22:28] <TK_> chromium?
[17:22:46] <TK_> what's the guilt free/cruelty free browser of the moment?
[17:22:53] <michealpwalls> TK_: Right now I use Opera. Sorry to take so long to reply :)
[17:23:01] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, bad management comes from being elected by a bunch of random, anonymous shareholders. How would they care about anything but short term profit.
[17:23:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> TK_, search me. i ignore guilt that isn't earned by me.
[17:23:16] <prospectacle> There is no core, no direction, not soul, except money.
[17:23:22] <TK_> how are the plugin capabilities
[17:23:24] <michealpwalls> I run Chromium and Opera mostly. I have all the browsers for testing and dev. purposes by my personal browser is Opera at this point.
[17:23:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, i care about long term profit.
[17:23:44] <TK_> I have no problem with a for-profit over a not for profit
[17:24:01] <michealpwalls> TK: Opera is a fork of Chromium. They actively develop Blink, all of their work is pushed upstream and you can see the direction they're going (Speed, privacy and security)
[17:24:02] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, Good, but are you a minority shareholder?
[17:24:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, of course. everyone is in most publicly traded companies.
[17:24:28] <michealpwalls> Mozilla's pushign Firefox in the direction of: Tracking, Bloated, Leaky and shoveling data to Google by the fucking dumptruck-load.
[17:24:34] <prospectacle> TK_ I'm not against profit either, it's the anonymous/publicly-trade nature of joint-stock companies that create the problem.
[17:25:04] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, and what's the common denominator among them all? It seems to be a desire for short term profit or stock-price-increase.
[17:25:16] <michealpwalls> I am all for profits and I believe in the power of consumerism. If you don't like Google's browser tracking you, stop using it. There *are* alternatives.. Opera's #1 niche is the people who like Chrome but want privacy.
[17:25:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, people is the LCD.
[17:25:24] <michealpwalls> Read their privacy policy if you don't believe me :)
[17:25:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> and as is well established, people are fucking morons, by in large.
[17:26:15] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, yes but in other corporate structures, you might have an LCD that is a founder, or a family, or a dedicated group of founders. In Public company this is virtually impossible by the nature of the system.
[17:26:16] <TK_> I concur with the consumerist perspective
[17:26:24] <TK_> If it doesn't fit my needs, I won't use it
[17:26:32] <TK_> and FF is approaching that very quickly
[17:26:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can tell that just by the number of twats who put nothing towards retirement thinking SS will take care of them in their old age.
[17:26:44] <stdhell> TheMightyBuzzard: That's actually my first rule.
[17:26:47] <michealpwalls> I lost FF with the v29 sneak-pick...
[17:27:06] <michealpwalls> Disclaimer: I am a long time Firefox suppoert, promotor and developer. I ran FIrefox right up until v28, proudly.
[17:27:23] <TK_> My first inkling was about v25 when they changed the search behavior of the url bar
[17:27:24] <michealpwalls> v29 shows where they're going. They dont' give a flying *fuck* about the Gecko engine, or anything about browsers you would think they should care about.
[17:27:33] <michealpwalls> They care about tracking you.. So they can sell more of your data to Google and increase profits.
[17:27:34] <TK_> brb, my vendor just arrived
[17:27:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, yeah. not gonna disagree that it's a better system to have fewer cooks in the kitchen. it always is.
[17:27:36] <michealpwalls> That's it. That is *it*
[17:27:51] <michealpwalls> Firefox is largely Facebook at this point, in my honest unbiased opinion...
[17:27:59] <michealpwalls> So is Google, but we all know that and Google doesn't hide it..
[17:28:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> you either succeed faster or you fail faster. both are positive results.
[17:28:03] <michealpwalls> But Firefox blatantly does.
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[17:29:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> publicly owned, short-term only corps are the zergling rush of business. if you can hold out against one, they're fucked.
[17:29:15] <prospectacle> TheMighyBuzzard. Lots of cooks seems to be the natural result of the limited liability/stock-trading laws. All the cooks want different things but they can all agree on one thing. Get me all the money you can as fast as you can, however you can. Goes back to east india companies.
[17:29:15] <michealpwalls> haha
[17:30:01] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, what do you mean "is largely facebook". Do they track my browing habits and send it back to base?
[17:30:15] <michealpwalls> prospectacle: More and more with each new release, yup :)
[17:30:20] <prospectacle> hmm
[17:30:21] <michealpwalls> You should see what they're working on, man!
[17:30:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, right but they REQUIRE massive growth to continue existing. they leverage too hard. it always bites them in the ass eventually.
[17:30:26] <prospectacle> I'd better start paying more attention to it
[17:30:27] <michealpwalls> Jesus.. Google "Mozilla Personalized Web"
[17:30:41] <michealpwalls> Google "Mozilla Persona" and, fuckit just go to the Mozilla developer blog. Read any of their "ideas"
[17:30:50] <michealpwalls> All Roads Lead to Rome. (Read: "Google")
[17:31:10] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard. I think that's mostly right. They have the power to do a lot more damage ont he way, though, due to the diverse/broad funding base.
[17:31:17] <Blackmoore> part of me would want to just write a new browser.
[17:31:24] <michealpwalls> No you don't!
[17:31:25] <michealpwalls> LMAO
[17:31:41] <michealpwalls> The web is fucking insane
[17:31:42] <Blackmoore> yeah yeah. i know that's a damn trap.
[17:32:01] <Blackmoore> and I'm not good enough to even start it
[17:32:07] <michealpwalls> I wrote a simple screen-scraper once
[17:32:12] <michealpwalls> The joke in that sentence is "simple" (dull)
[17:32:18] <michealpwalls> The web is fucked LMAO
[17:32:40] <sirecote> why not just fork mozilla and remove all the crap feeding data out.. ?
[17:32:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> damage? nah. just more mediocrity instead of superiority of product. if you can't hang with them that's a failing in you for not being good enough.
[17:32:42] <Blackmoore> *replaces web browser with gopher client*
[17:32:47] <prospectacle> I google "mozilla personalised web" and couldn't find anything
[17:32:50] <sirecote> you got a good working base from there
[17:32:51] <michealpwalls> I considered making an email client, though. I hate that all email clients' step #1 is to fork a full-blown web browser. What a retarded idea!
[17:32:53] <prospectacle> is it under a different name
[17:33:11] <michealpwalls> sirecote: Becaue Mozilla has a notoriously horrible codebase. You think OpenSSL is a joke, jesus..
[17:33:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> now when it gets up to monopolistic levels, that's a problem. until then all's fair in love and war.
[17:33:18] <stdhell> michealpwalls: alpine is your friend. :-)
[17:33:21] <michealpwalls> Take a peek at anything from Mozilla... Lemme know if you figure it out :)
[17:33:45] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, what about the damage microsoft has done, or haliburton?
[17:33:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> michealpwalls, ya, i tried building it. once.
[17:33:54] <michealpwalls> sirecote: It's not because of lazyness that there exists "simple" rendering bugs in Firefox for going on 6 years or more :/
[17:34:26] <michealpwalls> It's unbelievably confusing, poorly documented and disparate (Right word? Everythign is different, as it's the sum of many different parts provided by many different people who speak many different languages)
[17:34:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, haliburton hasn't done squat for damage. they're very good at their jobs overall. failings fall on the people employing them and giving shit orders.
[17:34:50] <michealpwalls> And glued together with a language and software stack designed specifically to glue mozilla garbage together :/
[17:34:55] <michealpwalls> It's why Apple wrote WebKit.
[17:35:04] <michealpwalls> They were like "Hey, lets fork mozilla! hit the ground running!"
[17:35:04] <sirecote> michealpwalls: i'm not saying fix the rendering bugs, for the most part the browser works, if the privacy issues are the concern that shouldn't be too hard to rip out rather than starting from scratch
[17:35:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> microsoft did its damage from a position of monopoly, which see above.
[17:35:28] <michealpwalls> Then about a year later they forked KHTML from the KDE Konquerer project and called it WebKit, 'cause Mozilla is a fucking disaster of software engineering
[17:35:44] <prospectacle> TheMightyBuzzard, don't haliburton have some responsibility due to their high level of political influence? I mean their war contracts were a coincidence or the result of a competitive tender.
[17:35:54] <michealpwalls> TheMightyBuzzard: That's entirely true, LMAO. Most if it got the way it is now trying to play MS' game :/
[17:35:55] <prospectacle> yes, agreed that monopolies are especially bad
[17:36:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> tl;dr of all this: competition good, anticompetitive practices of any sort bad.
[17:36:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> prospectacle, they don't have that high a level of influence. they're middle-men in the oil game.
[17:37:00] <michealpwalls> At the end of the day, you *could* preserve Firefox. In fact the Debian guys already have and they call it IceWeasal.
[17:37:05] <michealpwalls> BUT.. That's a monumental task
[17:37:15] <michealpwalls> And it's not going to go on forever. It can't :/
[17:37:36] <prospectacle> themightbuzzard, wasn't one of their ex CEOs the vice president just when they happened to get a no-bid contract for the war?
[17:37:37] <michealpwalls> In fact, the presence of IceWeasal should hav ebeen the red flag guys..
[17:37:50] <michealpwalls> Iceweasal is *exactly* what I"m talking about. Mozilla COrporation wont even ACCEPT the bug fixes...
[17:37:55] <prospectacle> Seems pretty cozy
[17:38:00] <michealpwalls> If the push does NOT increase thei rprofits, they're not even interested in it...
[17:38:12] <michealpwalls> Debian got hit with bs from Mozilla for patching security holes.. Seriously.
[17:38:22] <michealpwalls> Read the history on IceWeasal and you will see why I fucking hate mozilla so much.
[17:38:32] <sirecote> hmm i'l lhave to look at that
[17:39:17] <michealpwalls> It's a touchy subject, I know. I used to defend Firefox so much because of it's ideals
[17:39:26] <michealpwalls> Even when it was leaking memory in the fucking hundreds of megabytes..
[17:39:34] <michealpwalls> I still ran it and pretended there wasn't a problem LOL
[17:39:40] * prospectacle bookmarks iceweasal to read
[17:39:48] <sirecote> lol I did that as well
[17:40:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> i never defend software for its ideals. i'm all about the product itself.
[17:40:15] <sirecote> so i gotta restart the browser every couple hours.. what's the big deal!?
[17:40:20] <michealpwalls> LOL!
[17:40:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> i don't care if baby-stomping-racists build something. if it's the best, i'll use it.
[17:41:28] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, what browser would you suggest?
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[17:45:05] <sirecote> i think at this point if you have any sort of online persona you can expect it to be snorted up in some data dealers db
[17:45:38] <sirecote> there's just too much 'value' associated to peoples browsing habits to let it go
[17:45:55] <prospectacle> seems that way, unfortunatelt
[17:46:00] <prospectacle> seems that way, unfortunately
[17:47:16] <sirecote> if i was serious about hiding my browsing habits i would have an environment like tails, and use that to do my browsing that i didn't want associated with me at all.. and hope for the best
[17:47:24] <prospectacle> goodnight all. Have a good weekend and beyond.
[17:47:26] <sirecote> then use another environment for my online persona
[17:47:30] <sirecote> thanks you too
[17:47:31] <prospectacle> part
[17:47:38] -!- prospectacle [prospectacle!~3a6b4f4a@n74-623-21-69.mit519.act.optusnet.com.au] has parted #Soylent
[17:49:58] <Blackmoore> gnight
[17:50:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> tails in a VM wouldn't be a bad idea but it's really too much effort unless you're far more vehement about your privacy than I am.
[17:51:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> i mean, i don't even encrypt /home
[17:52:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> low hanging fruit is generally enough for me. VPN, noscript, adblock plus, chromium for all google services that you need to log in for.
[17:53:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> disallowing tracking cookies. you know, the easy shat.
[17:56:49] <sirecote> yeah i'm pretty much the same way
[17:57:07] <sirecote> although the idea of setting up tails just for kicks intrigues me when i have some time
[17:58:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> i may do it in a bit. shouldn't take more than 5-10m aside from the download.
[18:03:56] <sirecote> touche, it is pretty trivial to setup
[18:06:24] <chromas> (scrolling back) "Opera is a fork of Chromium". Makes me a sad panda
[18:07:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, they did do some innovative stuff back in the day. just too non-extensible for my tastes.
[18:08:24] <chromas> Well they could have just worked webkit/blink into it or something. Didn't have to throw out the entire thing and not start over
[18:08:42] <chromas> Actually, they were already doing that, like throwing out skins
[18:09:05] <chromas> Replacing skins with 'themes' that you have to download but do nothing but change the background of empty tabs
[18:09:17] <pingus> ugh, seems like each browser is in a race to the bottom
[18:10:27] <chromas> Time for SoylentWeb
[18:11:01] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Winning Strategy for Rock-Paper-Scissors - http://sylnt.us - SERIOUS.-BUSINESS.
[18:11:40] <Blackmoore> so like Mosaic right?
[18:13:23] <chromas> Well, we'll have one browser created from the ground up and one that's like Mozilla or something that a couple devs will start trying to tame and it will keep breaking
[18:13:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> If you remember mosaic, I'd like some "get off my lawn" lessons from you. I don't think I have the inflections quite perfect.
[18:13:37] <chromas> And there will be a long, stretched out voting process on the new name
[18:14:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> chromas, don't forget the red theme that you can't change.
[18:14:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> well for a low value of can't
[18:15:28] <chromas> Right. The color scheme will be inverted from the 'other guy', with inverted trim gradients and complementary colors
[18:17:00] * pingus likes the red theme..
[18:17:50] <chromas> While we're at it, we can invent <stub> tags that tell the browser where to get a block of HTML so we can use that to load comments onClick instead of using Javascript
[18:18:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> pingus, honestly, so do I. doesn't mean I won't give them shit about it though.
[18:18:33] <chromas> ^
[18:19:59] mrcoolbp|afk is now known as mrcoolbp
[18:21:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> only thing I really can't stand is the ul in the topnav div aligning right. it's sick and wrong.
[18:22:16] <chromas> ?
[18:22:24] <pingus> whatever happened to the [QUANTITY] of [ADJECTIVE][NOUNS] that used to serve up the pages?
[18:22:28] <chromas> Everything's left on mine
[18:22:43] <Blackmoore> eh. you honsetly cant get to "get off my lawn" till you see your own kids graduate.
[18:23:16] <chromas> FoobarBazbot captured those [quantity] of [adjective][nouns] in his basement and attack him after bacon++ing now
[18:23:54] <Blackmoore> [adjective]!
[18:24:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> chromas, the nav icons align to the right edge on both FF and chromium for me.
[18:24:20] <chromas> Also, he and SedBot're back
[18:24:51] <chromas> Weird. I'm in FF 875,362.2½
[18:25:26] <chromas> Oh it's 29 now
[18:26:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> well they align left for me too after a bit of user style jiggery.
[18:27:29] * NCommander waves
[18:27:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> just my personal preference and ocd though.
[18:27:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> sup, yo
[18:32:32] * NCommander moves everything TheMightyBuzzard owns by a few millimeters
[18:33:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> s'all good, i have medication.
[18:33:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> and by medication i mean scotch.
[18:33:38] * chromas moves TheMightyBuzzard's medication by a few millimeters
[18:34:26] * chromas dillutes TheMightyBuzzard's scotch with Budlight or something
[18:35:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> ghyeurg! i'm not a beer snob but i'll be sober before i intentionally drink diet beer.
[18:35:41] <chromas> Hey it was good enough for a Pixar movie
[18:35:49] <Blackmoore> I'll drink concentrated beer.. (whiskey, scotch)
[18:35:50] <chromas> Bud Lightbeer
[18:36:09] Blackmoore is now known as Blackmoore|lunch
[18:36:35] <Blackmoore|lunch> which scoth?
[18:36:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> Talisker lately but most of the Glen-s are worth drinking.
[18:37:52] <Blackmoore|lunch> yeah. i usually have glenlevet at the house. Sotch tasting partys rock.
[18:39:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> indeed. keeps you from having to find out you don't like something after paying $100+ for it.
[18:48:25] <TK_> Holy shat, I just realized why FF 29 is the best release. By crashing twice every hour, they've essentially fixed the memory leak problem!
[18:50:47] -!- Brylarke has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
[18:52:45] <TK_> chromas, do you get random crashes when you try to do too many things at once in Firefox?
[18:53:12] <TK_> I can't for the life of me figure out the actual reason, the crashes are sudden and instantaneous
[18:53:59] <chromas> Not yet, though since I switched to Mint a couple days ago, I get lots of freezes on everything after suspend-to-ramming and Firefox still wants to 'recover' my tabs from weeks ago when I start it
[18:55:09] <TK_> maybe it's the OS
[18:55:19] <chromas> Also apt-get doesn't search for some reason, even though that's half of what it does
[18:55:25] <TK_> I'm using Win7, WinXP and WinXP x64 edition
[18:55:28] <chromas> I found apt-cache but that's dumb
[18:56:22] <chromas> When I was using Windows, Opera would lock up a lot if I had more than three or four bloat tabs open, like /.
[18:56:27] <TK_> I'll have to try it out in my mint VM
[18:56:49] <TK_> and here I was thinking I might try Opera out
[18:57:01] <TK_> That won't stop me
[18:57:04] <chromas> That was before Opera went beta
[18:57:16] <TK_> mo' browsers, mo' problems
[18:58:15] <chromas> I remember telling people about Opera and tabs; they thought it was stupid. Then Firefox got tabs
[18:58:24] <chromas> "Hey, look what this does"
[18:58:24] <TK_> heh
[18:58:30] <TK_> you don't say...
[18:58:38] <TK_> Just tell them they're clever
[18:58:57] <TK_> Pat their heads and rub their tummies
[18:59:02] <chromas> At least up to 12, it still has full MDI ability
[18:59:04] <chromas> lol
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[19:03:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> chromas, try aptitude. it's less retarded.
[19:04:35] -!- FoobarBazbot_ [FoobarBazbot_!~FoobarBaz@66.249.nkq.wjg] has joined #Soylent
[19:04:35] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v FoobarBazbot_] by juggler
[19:05:51] <michealpwalls> That was quite poor
[19:06:13] <michealpwalls> Damn HexChat just caused the entire system to be unresponsive. Blocking system call somewhere? :/
[19:07:33] <michealpwalls> I started and then interrupted the log-off process just after it killed hexchat LOL
[19:07:37] <michealpwalls> then everything started up again fine
[19:08:20] <michealpwalls> After I clicked 'ok' on the unhandled exception dialogs hehe
[19:08:31] <michealpwalls> Technology is so funny when it fails
[19:08:44] <michealpwalls> I was sitting in Task Manager trying to kill process' but nothing was responsive HEH!
[19:13:21] <chromas> Doesn't that have to be a bug in the OS?
[19:13:54] <chromas> I've had that happen on Win and Lin though. Shouldn't be possible for a program to freeze the system like that
[19:14:02] <michealpwalls> Not really no, it's bad architecture of the program. Any low-level programming language can be used to do it
[19:14:16] <michealpwalls> Basically, you have multiple threads... Spin off a thread and then in that thread, call a blocking function like system() or open()
[19:14:35] <chromas> We have preemptive multitasking to prevent that
[19:14:45] <michealpwalls> During execution of the command, SIGCHLD will be blocked, and SIGINT and SIGQUIT will be ignored.
[19:14:54] <chromas> (freezing the system, not the faulty program itself)
[19:15:16] <michealpwalls> It's an exceptional case, usually on resume. In my case it resumed from hibernation to find it's thread orphaned
[19:16:06] <michealpwalls> The hibernation probably caused an exception to be thrown in the child thread, which was unhandled and orphaned the thread while it's parent sat waiting for it to finish cleanly and return execution
[19:16:08] * chromas is researching hexchat
[19:16:20] <michealpwalls> I like it
[19:16:22] * chromas still hates that firefox treats single words as domains
[19:16:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, it's a pretty decent client if you want a stand-alone gui client
[19:17:04] <michealpwalls> Yea I'm totaly happy with it :)
[19:17:12] <chromas> Looks like xchat. It's a fork, right?
[19:17:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep, since xchat is essentially abandoned
[19:17:30] <michealpwalls> Yea I think Xchat kinda died out (The community)
[19:17:54] <michealpwalls> Only thing I would do is remove the alt+q shortcut hehe
[19:18:06] <michealpwalls> Probs. in the preferences but haven't been arsed to look :P
[19:18:14] <michealpwalls> sorry ctrl+q
[19:18:37] <chromas> I think a lot of opensource programs have that shortcut
[19:18:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> not that i've noticed. it n moz both love that ^Q means off we fuck and you're not changing it.
[19:19:12] <michealpwalls> haha yea
[19:19:18] <chromas> Just tried it and it closed by IRC too
[19:19:23] <chromas> Quassel
[19:19:28] <michealpwalls> It's such a bad shortcut IMHO
[19:19:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> which sucks balls if you meant to hit ^W
[19:19:33] <michealpwalls> Really bad user experience :/
[19:19:53] <michealpwalls> Yea exactly.. I remember the battle.net client had alt+q to quit and alt+w to "wisper" somebody in chat (PM)
[19:20:00] <chromas> Did it come from Apple? Or is it older? I remember apple-W or command-W or something from Skool
[19:20:01] <michealpwalls> LOL so many times I hit q by accident, killing the client
[19:20:28] <michealpwalls> I think alt+f4 is an os-level shortcut for closing the active window, so Iunno why any application programmer would implement alt+q or ctrl+q :/
[19:20:53] <chromas> On Windows and Mac
[19:20:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's especially fun in FF if you haven't got it set to open the tabs/windows i had open last time
[19:21:03] <michealpwalls> haha yea TheMightyBuzzard
[19:21:20] <chromas> On Linux, you only get that if the window manager does it
[19:21:26] <michealpwalls> Yea
[19:21:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[19:21:39] <michealpwalls> I really love linux window managers
[19:21:41] <michealpwalls> They "get me" LMAO
[19:21:43] <chromas> Firefox never remembers my session
[19:21:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> most seem to lately but you can generally change it if it bugs you
[19:22:32] <michealpwalls> All of them are really good, in their own way. haha speaking of which, did I ever tell you guys my 2 kids use gnome 3? They're 5 and 7 :D
[19:22:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm particularly digging openbox lately despite having to config file edit and reload to change/add hotkeys
[19:22:45] <chromas> I'm sorry to hear that
[19:22:50] <michealpwalls> haha chromas
[19:22:56] <michealpwalls> Honestly, it really fits them well!
[19:23:03] <chromas> I like Gnome 1; that was it
[19:23:06] <michealpwalls> I was really surpised. It wasn't planned at all, just happened
[19:23:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> well it is probably the best demographic age to target for gnome lately
[19:23:50] <michealpwalls> It fits them perfectly, though. Esp. the youngest, who doesn't yet have supurb hand-eye coordination. He just jams the mouse to the corner to trigger the Activities screen
[19:23:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> they don't seem to want adults who just want to get shit done
[19:24:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> or adults who want to customize the shit out of everything, again so they can get shit done.
[19:24:14] <michealpwalls> LMAO TheMightyBuzzard. Touche! I'm KDE all the way, although that's probs. more of a muscle-memory thing
[19:24:35] <michealpwalls> I've been using KDE so long that... using anything but KDE feels clunky :/
[19:24:40] <chromas> ^
[19:24:53] <michealpwalls> Although, i pride myself on being 'platform agnostic'. In fact that's why I got selected for this job!
[19:25:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> it does have some nifty bells and whistles about window placement but it's way too intrusive for my tastes.
[19:25:06] <michealpwalls> *everybody* lost when they proudly proclaimed themselves either a "PC guy" or a "mac" guy...
[19:25:19] <michealpwalls> I was all "Meh. Just give me a machine and I'll program it."
[19:25:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh no. i won big by proclaiming myself a *nix guy. had to support far less windows problems for family for free
[19:26:17] <michealpwalls> LOL I call that a victory
[19:26:23] <michealpwalls> "had to support far less windows problems" haha
[19:26:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm especially happy to tell them i've never used windows 8, and have no idea how to fix their problem.
[19:27:09] <michealpwalls> I used to make jabs all the time about that... I found myself fixing/repairing Windows machines almost every other day, yet I had no Windows machines in my house for years and years. Hadn't even used Windows seriously since Windows XP LMAO
[19:27:17] <michealpwalls> This was when Windows 7 was spreading like the flu
[19:27:37] <michealpwalls> I'd open the control panel and be like "What the fuck?" until I figured out I can just open it and start typing (brilliant, by the way!)
[19:27:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> 7 is pretty good for games if the wine framerate is too low.
[19:27:47] <michealpwalls> Same with the insane start-menu. Just hit the flag and start typing. Fuck it :P
[19:28:19] <michealpwalls> This laptop came with Windows 8... It fucking clobbered Gentoo.
[19:28:25] <michealpwalls> It was so sad and unfair. Poor Gentoo :(
[19:28:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, i have too many progs to remember wtf they're all named or what i need to search for
[19:29:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> I NEED a menu system or I'm fucked.
[19:29:18] <michealpwalls> I really like the windows 7 menu. It grew on me fast...
[19:30:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, wasn't bad. 8 can eat my ass though. took me like 5 minutes to figure out how to get to the desktop then longer to get FF installed for the parents so they won't get IE fucked.
[19:31:35] <michealpwalls> hah 8 is terrible until you figure out you can use the same win7 flow with it... tap the windows flag, start typing. Hit enter when it highlights what you're looking for
[19:31:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> told them i'd pay them the cost of a new win8 disk to take the free downgrade to 7, they still wouldn't
[19:31:40] <michealpwalls> Then it's just "bad", not terrible :)
[19:32:03] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - On the Horizon: 185 TB Tape Cartridges - http://sylnt.us - and-I-thought-tapes-had-died
[19:32:11] <michealpwalls> What makes it so terrible is all the low-level changes, IMHO. It's a very hostile OS. It attacks other OS' that it doesn't have a key for, such as my poor Gentoo
[19:32:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> only works if you remember what you want rather than "that program i used for editing a weird file type nobody ever heard of"
[19:32:21] <michealpwalls> Fucking deleted all my ext3 partitions, including the grub partition :(
[19:32:35] <michealpwalls> Was horrible. I tried to recover them with GParted Live but they were fucking gone completely, not recoverable :(
[19:32:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> gah
[19:32:54] <michealpwalls> Needless to say, that was Windows 8's last days on the laptop LMAO
[19:32:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> s'what VMs were created for.
[19:32:57] <michealpwalls> I was fucking furious
[19:33:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> yup yup
[19:33:13] <michealpwalls> Yea I vowed from tha tpoint to never try the 8s outside a VM...
[19:33:19] <michealpwalls> They can sit in a VM and think about what they've done...
[19:33:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> i will never buy a mobo or laptop i can't turn secure boot off on
[19:33:59] <michealpwalls> See I bought this because it boasted really good UEFI setup... I could turn secure boot off, I could turn it off and exempt OS' (That's hwo I got it booting Gentoo in secure boot....)
[19:34:04] <michealpwalls> But jesus... Windows 8 is a fucking monster
[19:34:17] <michealpwalls> It's all "I see your exempted Gentoo, and I raise you A BUNCH OF DELETED PARTITIONS!"
[19:34:37] * TheMightyBuzzard chuckles
[19:34:38] <michealpwalls> turn it *on* and exempt OS', I mean..
[19:34:58] <michealpwalls> But meh. Yea, wasn't worth it. Fuck Windows 8 and fuck secure boot :P
[19:35:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, my 7 install for gaming is staying 7 until it's not supported by games anymore.
[19:35:33] <michealpwalls> haha yea same, pretty much :P
[19:35:40] <michealpwalls> The old "if it aint broke.."
[19:35:41] <michealpwalls> :)
[19:35:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> there's nothing in 8 i want
[19:36:05] <michealpwalls> If you want a laugh, run some old legacy games in Windows 8. It's identicle to Wine :)
[19:36:09] <michealpwalls> Even StarCraft is fucked
[19:36:31] <chromas> Not sure about 8 but stuff like Diablo 2 run far better in Wine than win 7
[19:36:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> i mean the file copy subsystem looks nifty but it's not really an issue when it's a gaming only box
[19:37:43] <michealpwalls> What kills me about 8 is the Metro UI... Looking at it, you would *think* it would dramatically (exponentially) lower the resource requirements and memory footprint..
[19:37:55] <michealpwalls> But in practice.. It fucking *increases* it. LMAO how was that even possible?
[19:38:10] <chromas> It's Metro
[19:38:13] <michealpwalls> hah
[19:38:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> hiring vb coders
[19:38:15] <chromas> It's full of hair product and stubble
[19:38:21] <michealpwalls> haha touche
[19:38:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> sorry, that should be java coders nowadays i guess
[19:38:45] <chromas> At least VB was easy to use
[19:38:57] <chromas> It had source code instead of boilerplate
[19:39:19] <michealpwalls> I think, everybody forgot to read the footnote on VB's release? "This will make teaching programming concepts to programming students so much easier!"
[19:39:20] <michealpwalls> LMAO
[19:39:29] <michealpwalls> Then they used th elanguage to write production systems (dull)
[19:41:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> there's no reason it couldn't be, it's simply the language people who should never be paid to program chose. same as java today.
[19:41:34] <chromas> When my mom used to work in a nursing home, the software she used looked like it was written in VB. One of the programs was even labeled "Form1"
[19:41:34] <michealpwalls> haha
[19:41:51] <michealpwalls> LMAO chromas that's more common than you would want to believe :X
[19:41:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> ouch
[19:42:03] <michealpwalls> default icons, default formnames
[19:42:13] <michealpwalls> Fuck I gave up renaming my controls a long time ago
[19:42:16] <michealpwalls> LMAO
[19:42:23] <chromas> Extremely hackish. You'd have to go in several layers of windows to get somewhere, then slowly back out to go somewhere else
[19:42:49] <michealpwalls> continuity is a pain in the ass LMAO
[19:42:53] <michealpwalls> Just make another form, fuckit
[19:42:55] <michealpwalls> :P
[19:43:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> nothing wrong with writing hacks for yourself, only with distributing them to others.
[19:43:15] <michealpwalls> haha amen! ^
[19:43:39] <michealpwalls> You shoudl see some of the hackish shit I've thrown together "in a pinch", although no you shouldn't haha I keep all that stuff in local git repos :P
[19:43:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> i mean we prolly all have some quick, buggy, and ugly ones that should never see the light of day but work for us.
[19:43:43] <michealpwalls> That have no remotes :)
[19:43:52] <michealpwalls> haha exactly
[19:44:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> i know for damn sure a lot of my quickie bash or perl scripts do absolutely no input sanitizing.
[19:45:14] <michealpwalls> The rule I break the most is multiple exit points :D
[19:45:20] <michealpwalls> It's just so easy to say return false;
[19:45:20] <michealpwalls> LOL
[19:45:33] <chromas> Is that a real rule?
[19:45:41] <michealpwalls> Jesus, that's like *the* rule of Structured Programming
[19:46:08] <michealpwalls> No loop should break out of the loop contrary to the loop's condition.. No function should exit more than 1 way (I.e: return when something goes wrong)
[19:46:10] <michealpwalls> Etc. etc.
[19:46:18] <chromas> Oh, I thought it was just use function calls and pretend they're not really gotos
[19:46:25] <michealpwalls> haha
[19:46:54] <michealpwalls> The only acceptable use of a goto construct in "structured programming" is a very well thought-out switch ("select" for you VB guys :P )
[19:47:15] <chromas> Well
[19:47:21] <chromas> And jumping into a while(0)
[19:47:22] <michealpwalls> because it's dependent on a single variable, compilers can actually optimize the shit out of those structures and they become the fastest flow controls you can possible make
[19:47:26] <michealpwalls> LMAO chromas
[19:47:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> i like to throw one in every now and then just to be contrary
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[19:48:07] <michealpwalls> For a college student, I read a ridiculous amount of computer science literature in my spare time :/
[19:48:09] <michealpwalls> hehehe
[19:48:32] <michealpwalls> plus I'm always picking the brains of my professors with Ph.Ds in computer science or software engineering heehee
[19:48:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> prolly a good idea. you might even know your ass from a hole in the ground when you graduate if you keep it up.
[19:48:49] <michealpwalls> haha TheMightyBuzzard. Maybe!
[19:49:25] <chromas> You know what "structured programming" is so you're off to a good start :-)
[19:49:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> i was always going to my professor saying "you need to fix x, y, and kill z with fire or i'll be forced to use them to change your wallpaper to something horrible"
[19:49:57] <michealpwalls> chromas: Think about it like this. Anytime you might think "Damn, this is really structured", try to flowchart it :)
[19:50:13] <michealpwalls> And it should hit you, like a big brick. "Ow! This isn't structured at all! It's like fucking spaghetti!"
[19:50:43] <chromas> If a function has multiple outs then it should be diagrammed the same as an if()
[19:50:49] <michealpwalls> haha TheMightyBuzzard. One of my professors in project management taught me a lesson in "gold plating", the hard way :(
[19:50:54] <michealpwalls> Oh man what a tough lesson that was!
[19:51:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> anything under 500k lines i can't keep the majority of the flow in my head is spaghetti to my mind.
[19:51:23] <michealpwalls> lol
[19:53:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> chromas, ideally but i will multiple out like a boss if it's something just for me.
[19:53:48] <chromas> Oh, what I meant was an if has multiple outs so it's okay :-)
[19:54:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's really not an issue for your own code until you start confusing yourself doing it in recursive functions.
[19:54:23] <michealpwalls> if structures are taxing, though. They exponentially increase branching for the compiler :/
[19:54:34] <michealpwalls> That's why switch is the only acceptable goto in structured programming
[19:54:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> s'true but not an issue in a 100 line perl script
[19:55:07] <michealpwalls> haha touche
[19:55:12] <michealpwalls> I over think things a lot sometimes
[19:55:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> hacks vs programming
[19:55:26] <michealpwalls> I love hacks haha
[19:55:37] <michealpwalls> Although... I learned my lesson this time 'round.
[19:55:49] <michealpwalls> My "hack" caused a bug that resurfaced 3 fucking times :(
[19:55:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> they are way more fun to write. sit down and complete something in hours or a single day.
[19:55:56] <michealpwalls> Was so embarrassing LOL
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[19:56:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeah, i got a weird math bug i have to trace down in one of mine. will do it later when it's not easier to just change the results by hand.
[19:57:49] <michealpwalls> haha that's what I did basically. There was a bug during production that I got emailed about on a saturday evening..
[19:58:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> made a perl script to ~completely~ roll up npcs for 2nd edition dnd. it thinks all weapons are 1d6/1d6 for thieves for some reason though.
[19:58:24] <michealpwalls> So being the lazy programmer I am, I hacked up a little solution. It amounted to changing a single variable's value, which cascaded all the way down. Since I changed 1 thing, who needs to run it through all the tests again?
[19:58:32] <michealpwalls> Just run it, it doesn't explode, BAM BUG FIXED!
[19:58:50] <michealpwalls> LMAO oh man what a disaster that was... Fuck. Turns out it caused another bug. I fixed that.. Which caused ANOTHER bug. What a shitty weekend :(
[20:00:05] <michealpwalls> Good times, lemme tell ya :P
[20:00:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> yep
[20:00:31] <michealpwalls> So many hard lessons learned on tha tweekend...
[20:00:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> think it's time to break out my hunter-gatherer skills on the fridge.
[20:00:44] <michealpwalls> haha
[20:03:04] <michealpwalls> grateful is a weird spelling
[20:03:12] <michealpwalls> If it wasn't for spell check, it would have never happened :P
[20:03:17] <michealpwalls> I kept typing "greatfull" LMAO
[20:03:21] <michealpwalls> god I'm retarded
[20:06:26] <michealpwalls> Man the most comments an article has on the frontpage of pipedot is 7. 7 comments!
[20:06:36] <michealpwalls> If only this edge-groups could come together...
[20:06:57] <michealpwalls> There are decent articles on pipedot that doesn't exist on SN and vice versa. It's a shame to me! :/
[20:07:25] <michealpwalls> Such hard work being poured into 2 completely different systems that solve the identicle problem :O
[20:08:57] <michealpwalls> I have the same opinion about the 450 million Linux communities, too, so meh ^
[20:09:05] <chromas> ^
[20:09:45] <chromas> B..but we need 384 Linux distros that all have the same software available but put files in slightly different locations and have different default settings!
[20:09:59] <michealpwalls> LOL!
[20:10:35] <michealpwalls> Oh god, yes, and some will use init while others use systemD and ubuntu will use Upstart and Apple will continue to use LaunchD. It'll be great, trust me!
[20:10:39] <michealpwalls> *shoots himself*
[20:11:20] <chromas> Let's create a new distro to set some standards...
[20:11:45] <michealpwalls> He's a linux user. That means he could have SDL, or not. He could be running ALSA but probably is running OSS. It might be safe to target PulseAudio and just hope they're not running ESound from the old GNOME 1/2, or god forbid aRts from the KDE 2/3 ecosystem..
[20:11:46] <chromas> With moar XML
[20:11:53] <michealpwalls> Oh man, why isn't it the year of the linux desktop again!?
[20:11:54] <michealpwalls> :)
[20:12:32] <michealpwalls> Is he running Arch or Gentoo? Well just stop guessing and ask them to fill out this form, 'cause who fucking *knows* what they're running :)
[20:13:04] <michealpwalls> haha I would get flamed out of most linux communities with my radical views :)
[20:13:11] <chromas> Very true
[20:13:52] <michealpwalls> It's crazy though.. as a software developer, so crazy. In one sentence they'll rejoice at their "choices" but then end the sentence with a sigh, pondering why nobody makes games for them... LMAO
[20:14:16] <michealpwalls> It's like, impossible. As a software developer, if you tell me "Yea, I run Windows" I know exactly the ecosystem of software you have, that I can target...
[20:14:57] <michealpwalls> And I know it will work.. 'cause I know you ahvent' swapped out explorer.exe for some "hip" and "with it" alternative. There's a stable, common denominator to target. On linux, it's a fucking shot in the dark everytime
[20:15:22] <michealpwalls> Or, for example, you're ripped out vi and replaced it with emacs. I can't even tell what fucking editor you have. On Windows I Know ya'll got notepad.exe
[20:15:27] <chromas> "I make my own explorer.exe"
[20:15:44] <michealpwalls> And you're not getting rid of it, or MS will hire a goon to steal something from your house at night.
[20:15:49] <michealpwalls> hah yea, says the Gentoo guy :P
[20:16:07] <michealpwalls> "I didn't like the colour of blue so I patched and recompiled explorer.exe. Why don't you support me?"
[20:19:11] <chromas> Hm, I wonder how hard it would be to replace Linux with the Windows kernel
[20:19:28] <chromas> But still keep the 'gnu' userspace
[20:21:04] <michealpwalls> That's what cygwin and the other one are, aren't they? Windows is POSIX compliant, believe it or not :P
[20:21:17] <michealpwalls> MS ports unix shit to NT all the time. In fact I think they have a full department dedicated to this task
[20:21:46] <michealpwalls> Of course it's for their corporate customers, but meh. The plumbing is all there
[20:22:01] <pingus> there used to be "unix services for windows(R)" or something like that but I think it's obsolete
[20:22:36] <michealpwalls> Yea could be, Microsoft turned weird a few years back. They declared that they're no longer a "software development" company, but a "devices and services" company
[20:22:49] <michealpwalls> Shifted a lot of their policies to reflect it, too. Weird times we live in today, boys!
[20:23:15] <pingus> wait, think I had that backwards. windows for unix, or boys for girls or something
[20:23:36] <michealpwalls> haha
[20:24:30] <Blackmoore> *microsoft Bob wearing a frilly pink dress*
[20:25:42] <michealpwalls> Oh jesus christ...
[20:25:57] <michealpwalls> I tried to an attach an excel workbook to Thunderbird email and I get this exception thrown from deep within Thunderbird:
[20:29:23] <michealpwalls> http://oi60.tinypic.com
[20:29:40] <michealpwalls> LOL what the fuck script is it running? Did it seriously just try to parse the excel document I attached?!
[20:30:47] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Anonymous Wants to Develop Secure Radio Communications - http://sylnt.us - reinventing-the-wheel
[20:31:01] <chromas> Could be the interface. Isn't it made up of XML and javascript?
[20:31:03] <michealpwalls> ^ I been reading that on pipedot. Odd concept. Ham radios!
[20:31:14] <michealpwalls> Yea, their stupid XULRunner or whatever?
[20:31:32] <michealpwalls> Named after that Ghost Busters character LMAO that's about what it is. A fucking monster from a science fiction movie!
[20:32:10] <michealpwalls> But seriously, this is why I think me and my friend from college are going to write an email client from scratch.
[20:32:18] <michealpwalls> And the first step is *not* going to be to fork a web browser LMAO
[20:32:21] <michealpwalls> 'cause we're not retarded
[20:32:50] <chromas> You could switch to M2 :)
[20:33:14] <michealpwalls> hehe what's M2? Actually nevermind, the real question is, did they start the M2 project by forking a web-browser? :)
[20:33:22] <michealpwalls> 'cause if the answer to that is yes, I dont' wanna try it :P
[20:33:44] <chromas> Not a fork
[20:33:51] <chromas> It's the old name for Opera Mail
[20:34:27] <michealpwalls> Oh! Haven't tried opera mail lately since the restart. I hear good things!
[20:34:38] <michealpwalls> I use opera as my main browser now (Opera v20, based on Chromium with Blink engine)
[20:34:44] <chromas> ew
[20:34:50] <chromas> Now that it has no features
[20:35:02] <michealpwalls> haha I know, unorthodox. But they're on the "up 'n up"... I follow the growth
[20:35:20] <chromas> Heh, I quit Opera when they switched :)
[20:35:33] <michealpwalls> Yea I left it alone for awhile once they switched
[20:35:40] <michealpwalls> At first I revolted like a crazy person haha
[20:36:01] <chromas> Does it have any of the features back yet? Like Link?
[20:36:24] <michealpwalls> I came back though. There really is no good alternatives in the browser industry. They're all steaming piles of shit. Safari is really nice.. But you'd have to be an apple hipster to use that :/
[20:36:31] <chromas> The Android doesn't have Link anymore. It just takes me to their web site
[20:37:01] <michealpwalls> chromas: Well, the bad news is a lot of those features are never coming back. They've made a bold and dramatic shift in their priorities at Opera :/
[20:37:04] <chromas> You'd also have to be on an Apple for it to not be a total pile of shit
[20:37:32] <Landon> michealpwalls: which is disappointing, a huge part of why I used opera was the interface customization abilities
[20:37:37] <Landon> so now I'm back on the firefox
[20:37:39] -!- CyprusBlue has quit []
[20:37:45] <chromas> So do they add anything on top of Chromium? It used to have good keyboard navigation and the narrow screen view was awesome
[20:37:48] <michealpwalls> Yea, me too. That's also what kept me on firefox for the longest time as well
[20:37:58] <Landon> I'm a diehard adherent to tabs on the right
[20:37:59] <michealpwalls> It wasn't until recently I changed my veiw and supported Opera's direction :/
[20:38:12] <chromas> michealpwalls: You're fired!
[20:38:40] <michealpwalls> chromas: Yea, so Opera is actually one of the biggest contributors to upstream Chromium and Blink believe it or not. You can check their commits
[20:38:43] <michealpwalls> They're fucking robots over there
[20:38:45] <chromas> I don't think they have the new Opera for Linux anyway
[20:39:09] <michealpwalls> Opera has Mouse Gestures, Rocker Gestures and the keyboard shortcut infrastructure is stille xpanding, but compared to Opera v12 it's still limited.
[20:41:46] <michealpwalls> There are still some gaping functionality gaps in Opera v20, I'm not going to lie.
[20:42:09] <chromas> Go ahead. We need more firewood
[20:42:09] <michealpwalls> But as I said, I shifted my priority... Feature bloat is moot to me now. I couldn't care less. In fact I blame it for why I hate Firefox now...
[20:42:23] <michealpwalls> They focus TOO MUCH on functionality... And neglect the engine that actually *renders* the fucking web.
[20:42:25] <michealpwalls> Think about that for a second..
[20:42:33] <michealpwalls> Your *web browser* sucks at rendering web pages.
[20:42:37] <michealpwalls> But boy does it have features...
[20:42:44] <chromas> But at the same time, Firefox doesn't have any features built-in.
[20:43:03] <michealpwalls> wtf are you talking about?
[20:43:09] <michealpwalls> Firefox is a full-blown operating system at this point.
[20:43:11] <chromas> Need an extension for everything
[20:43:12] <michealpwalls> Ever heard of FirefoxOS? LAMO
[20:44:41] <michealpwalls> http://operasoftware.github.io
[20:44:53] <michealpwalls> While Firefox makes new "features" and tries to track you, that's what Opera is doign :)
[20:45:15] <michealpwalls> Making it faster.. faster... faster and plugging potential security holes.
[20:45:43] <michealpwalls> expanding support for bleeding edge *web* technologies, not *tracking* technologies...
[20:45:44] <chromas> So does that make Chromium Opera for Linux?
[20:45:49] <michealpwalls> Yes
[20:45:50] <michealpwalls> Basically
[20:45:55] <michealpwalls> Although, not the features...
[20:46:04] <chromas> And Chromium Opera for Windows
[20:46:20] <chromas> So it's not all going to Chromium then
[20:47:04] <michealpwalls> No, Opera is a fork of Chromium. They commit upstream to the Blink engine and everything they still use in Chromium, but their own UI doesn't (And couldn't..) get put into chromium repo, hee
[20:47:11] <michealpwalls> They'd never merge that stuff, it would fuck the Chromium UI silly :P
[20:47:49] <michealpwalls> In fact, that's *why* the 3 split.. Apple, Google and Opera. They all pull from chromium/blink and they all do upstream patches to chromium/blink... But they *all* provide their own interface
[20:48:00] <michealpwalls> And that lets them each have lean, fully integrated browser
[20:48:25] <michealpwalls> But yet, all 3 are blazing fast, support the cutting edge web techologies and integrate extremely well in their respective environments
[20:50:18] <chromas> So you're saying they're pulling a KDE instead of a beta? :)
[20:50:29] <michealpwalls> Technically speaking, they *are* KDE..
[20:50:39] <michealpwalls> WebKit was KHTML, from Konq. ;)
[20:50:52] <chromas> Yeah
[20:50:56] <Blackmoore> http://www.reddit.com
[20:51:10] <michealpwalls> I love that history hehe
[20:51:13] <chromas> Well if they want to be just like KDE then they should have ported the old stuff to new toolkit then threw it away
[20:51:17] <michealpwalls> KDE *heart*
[20:51:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> reddit hurts my eyes
[20:51:42] <michealpwalls> I never "got into" reddit..
[20:51:51] <michealpwalls> I'm such a minority at school LMAO
[20:51:52] <Blackmoore> I was bored.
[20:51:54] <michealpwalls> *everybody* is on reddit :/
[20:52:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's worse to read than xml, much less things that are supposed to be human readable
[20:52:40] <Blackmoore> we really need a catagory for techsupport crap like that
[20:52:56] <Landon> michealpwalls: eh, it's where everyone's at, lots of interesting conversation
[20:53:05] <Landon> I like to search for whatever my brain is on
[20:53:15] <Landon> sort by top discussions
[20:53:24] <Landon> ... they don't have a very active kilt subreddit though
[20:53:28] <michealpwalls> LOL
[20:53:41] <michealpwalls> I do that on Wikipedia and soylent. I totaly get it :/
[20:53:54] <michealpwalls> Fuck I flip around wikipedia for hours and hours! I'm such a weirdo :/
[20:54:38] <Landon> just... don't visit the front page and you're set
[20:55:05] <Landon> for some good subreddits.. /r/hotpeppers /r/spicy /r/gardening /r/rpg /r/knitting /r/kerbalspaceprogram
[20:57:23] <Landon> there's a daily programming challenge one too, but I can't remember what it is or if it has been active recently
[20:57:46] <Landon> http://www.reddit.com
[20:58:00] <michealpwalls> chromas: Here's an example, btw. This commit (from an Opera developer) would affect everybody using a chromium based browser in some way: http://src.chromium.org
[20:58:11] <michealpwalls> Including Google Chrome users on Windows, Chromium users on Ubuntu and etc.
[20:58:34] <michealpwalls> And everything tha tforks from Chromium once they update
[21:01:54] <michealpwalls> Oh they have stats right at the top haha didn't even notice: "Upstreamed commits in Chromium: 210, Blink: 909, V8: 16."
[21:06:59] <Blackmoore> nice!
[21:07:25] <Blackmoore> I'm in the minecraft forums, and talesfromtechsupport.
[21:07:55] <Blackmoore> oh. AskScienceFiction.
[21:08:41] <Blackmoore> anyway Is there a Linux edition of Opera at all these days?
[21:09:18] <Blackmoore> or do they agree with the (truthful) rant..
[21:13:46] <chromas> There's 12 and then there's any webkit-based browser
[21:17:03] <Blackmoore> ah there is a version. cool.
[21:17:46] <Blackmoore> I'll grab that when i'm home. mabe after i install the new HD.
[21:17:56] <chromas> It's ancient though
[21:18:32] <Blackmoore> 12.16
[21:19:23] <Blackmoore> vs 20. geh..
[21:19:33] <chromas> But it's the last one to have features
[21:19:34] <Blackmoore> damnit
[21:20:00] <chromas> There's always Konqueror. It doesn't have any extensions, much like Opera
[21:20:33] <michealpwalls> Yea, well at this point (Nobody takes blame but Apple...) KHTML has fallen *way* behind WebKit/Blink..
[21:20:44] <michealpwalls> Apple != Opera or Google. Apple takes but gives *nothing* back
[21:20:46] <chromas> Konq uses webkit now by default
[21:20:50] <michealpwalls> Oh!
[21:20:53] <michealpwalls> Well that's good, then
[21:20:59] <chromas> but still has khtml
[21:20:59] <michealpwalls> It's still sad. Bullshit Apple...
[21:21:21] <michealpwalls> If Apple did the right think, KHTML would be what WebKit is today :/
[21:21:40] <michealpwalls> Brining epic publicity to the KDE guys and the rest of their products. Instead, most people think it's Googles engine and some attribute it to Apple
[21:21:42] <chromas> I'd use it more but I'm not sure how to get separate browser/file manager instances
[21:21:47] <michealpwalls> But nobody but hardcore geeks know it's KHTML
[21:21:51] <Teckla> Hmmm, I thought I submitted a story but I think it went in the bit bucket, oops
[21:21:56] * Teckla probably screwed up
[21:22:38] <Teckla> Not sure if I should re-submit or wait...
[21:22:53] <chromas> Click Submit and it should appear in your list
[21:25:42] <Teckla> chromas: Ah, thank you, I don't see it, I'll try again :)
[21:26:23] <chromas> Hopefully it's not another bug :)
[21:27:18] <Teckla> Ah, it worked that time
[21:27:28] <Teckla> Oh, I'm fairly sure in this case it was PEBKAC, hehe
[21:27:59] <Blackmoore> http://www.braedin.com
[21:28:00] <michealpwalls> I blame the Internet of Things.
[21:28:19] <michealpwalls> I'm surprised more things don't spontaneously fail without rational explaination on the internets.
[21:28:20] <michealpwalls> :)
[21:29:20] <michealpwalls> haha, you guys...
[21:29:22] * Teckla chuckles
[21:29:36] <Teckla> As a long-time software developer, I'm amazed *anything* software-related works
[21:29:47] <michealpwalls> That Anonymous-Ham-Radio story on pipedot for awhile.. Like 1-2 comments. It hits SN and really quickkly climbs to 9 comments :X
[21:29:50] <michealpwalls> Poor pipedot!
[21:29:55] <michealpwalls> LMAO Teckla. Amen!
[21:31:04] <michealpwalls> 3 comments in 2 hours on Pipedot, 9 comments in 1 hour on SN.
[21:31:10] <michealpwalls> VICTORY! :)
[21:31:44] <michealpwalls> No sense counting comments on Slashdot 'cause the quality of them is garbage mostly :D
[21:37:18] <michealpwalls> Oh man.. I was posting a message on pipedot awhile back
[21:37:32] <michealpwalls> Still got it open, but now I forgot what the comment I'm replying to was! :O
[21:37:44] <michealpwalls> LMAO they need a link here to remind me wtf thread I'm in :/
[21:38:15] <michealpwalls> Crap SN does that too
[21:38:17] <michealpwalls> *thinks*
[21:38:53] <michealpwalls> Ah I see. If you reply to a comment, SN shows the comment. However if you reply to an article (Which I was doing on Pipe I think, haha but I can't remember) it doesnt' give you any info at all
[21:39:06] <michealpwalls> I should PM NCommander with a suggestion :D
[21:41:51] <mrcoolbp> I think they are already working on what is displayed during/after a comment, not sure
[21:42:04] <mrcoolbp> you could always raise a feature request on github
[21:44:21] <michealpwalls> Hrmm!
[21:44:22] <michealpwalls> Touche
[21:50:21] <Blackmoore> (damn.where did that wall come from)
[21:53:07] <TK_> I think Mike is talking to a ghost
[21:53:33] <Blackmoore> i prefer the term undead.
[21:53:58] <Blackmoore> or at least chronologicall-challenged
[21:54:14] <michealpwalls> I'm a big zombie fan :)
[21:54:31] <TK_> "differently-materialized persons"
[21:55:29] <Blackmoore> matter-free-sentience?
[21:55:38] <TK_> extoplasm is matter, right?
[21:56:11] <TK_> ectoplasm*
[21:58:15] <michealpwalls> Well, I *think* I found the cookie logic in slashcode
[21:59:01] <michealpwalls> https://github.com
[21:59:08] <michealpwalls> LOL that's so hard to follow
[21:59:09] <TK_> Does that mean you're bringing them to the potluck?
[21:59:16] <michealpwalls> Of course!
[21:59:18] <michealpwalls> I love Slash cookies!
[21:59:35] <TK_> Are those the ones with raison blades in them?
[22:00:53] <TK_> Abrupt topic change: Western Digital vs. Seagate for >1TB drives?
[22:00:58] <michealpwalls> time to catch the bus, bbl\
[22:02:25] <Blackmoore> I always get WD.
[22:03:00] <Blackmoore> but mid grade or better. i dont really trust the lowest tier quality stuff
[22:03:35] <Blackmoore> but the reviews really dont tell me if there is a difference in quality between segate and WD
[22:03:55] <Blackmoore> both seem to have the same number of DOA
[22:04:33] <TK_> How's the warranty with WD?
[22:04:43] <Landon> I always go with WD Green
[22:04:59] <TK_> I've replaced my seagate twice under warranty (both my fault)
[22:05:03] <Landon> D:
[22:05:25] <TK_> What do you count as mid grade?
[22:05:28] <Landon> I had a couple of seagates that I needed to replace, but I didn't want to bother if I was going to get dinged for not sending it back in the original materials
[22:05:51] <TK_> You can pay $20 and they'll ship your new one immediately
[22:06:05] <TK_> and you can send it back in that box
[22:06:13] <Landon> ah
[22:06:14] <TK_> That's what I've done
[22:06:19] <Landon> oh well, not worth it at this point :)
[22:06:21] <Landon> 320gb is nothin
[22:06:23] <TK_> lol, yeah
[22:06:28] <TK_> 1.5 was worth it
[22:06:30] <TK_> tb
[22:06:52] <Landon> newegg says 2 year limited warranty
[22:07:31] <Landon> for the greens and blues
[22:07:36] <Landon> up to 5 years (wow) for the blacks
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[22:08:22] <chromas> Racists
[22:08:26] <chromas> Blacks get more time
[22:08:51] <TK_> wow, you're not even wrong
[22:09:54] <chromas> </badjoke>
[22:10:02] <chromas> or is it dark humor? :)
[22:11:17] <Blackmoore> I get blue. I see that Red has a 3 year warentee
[22:11:44] <TK_> I'm looking at a 2TB green on newegg
[22:11:49] <TK_> So far so good
[22:12:03] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Food That Makes You Feel Full, Explained - http://sylnt.us - I-usually-just-eat-more
[22:12:12] <sirecote> I like WD warranty/rma since they have advanced replacement
[22:12:38] <sirecote> woops TK_ already mentioned that
[22:13:39] <TK_> Do they have the same error code program as seagate for warranty claims?
[22:17:25] <Blackmoore> i've never had a DOA (I had better try the one o bought last week)
[22:18:50] <Blackmoore> you think i can swap the old and failing drive (wrong interface even) and get an RMA?
[22:19:58] <Blackmoore> ^^ not serious.
[22:20:26] <TK_> Depends on how good you are at swapping labels
[22:20:57] <TK_> Of course this 2TB drive is defective, it's only got capacity for 2gb and is 15 years old
[22:21:02] <TK_> Boy did we screw up
[22:21:04] <Landon> haha
[22:21:09] <Landon> well that's a valid complaint for those intel ssds :)
[22:21:19] <TK_> hah
[22:21:20] <Landon> 80 gigs... suddenly you can only RW 8 megs
[22:21:26] <Landon> what a disastrous failure mode
[22:21:43] <TK_> it's cool, those were the 8 megs I was looking for
[22:22:57] <Blackmoore> well the drives are both 500Gb.
[22:24:00] <Blackmoore> the old one may be 5 years or more old tho
[22:24:10] <TK_> Get a razor blade, a bottle of goo gone, and a tube of super glue
[22:24:15] <TK_> make a project out of it
[22:24:21] <Blackmoore> I like it!
[22:24:48] <Landon> at my college IT job....
[22:24:57] <Landon> my boss wanted me to swap motherboards on hard drives to fix them
[22:25:06] <TK_> wert?
[22:25:09] <Landon> s/motherboards/pcbs/
[22:25:10] <SedBot> <Lindin> my boss wanted me to swap pcbs on hard drives to fix them
[22:25:19] <Landon> on the basis that the drives "looked similar"
[22:26:08] <TK_> When I looked into it about five years ago, the PCBs were about half the price of a new drive
[22:26:45] <TK_> plus shipping
[22:26:55] <TK_> (From China, of course)
[22:26:57] <Landon> I was under the impression that the firmware had enough magic that you're not going to read much without having drives from the same run
[22:29:35] <TK_> That was a big part of why I didn't actually buy it
[22:30:19] <TK_> It could be a reason to buy drives in pairs
[22:35:55] <Blackmoore> well, if the drive speed is the same, and the read mechanism is the same you could be ok..
[22:36:32] <Blackmoore> but it is really doubtful that the new controller would be happy if either of those is different
[22:39:59] <Blackmoore> i almost wish i had the chops to write a "generic controler" coupled with a PCB. make it fully adjustable to spin at different speeds, diffent read techniques
[22:49:18] <TK_> I'm sure the world could use more open source hardware
[22:49:51] <TK_> I doubt most people could whip up a hard drive platter at their local machine shot, though.
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[23:05:40] -!- janrinok has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
[23:15:55] <Blackmoore> i was thinking more like using a generic board like a Pi. and then interfaceing that to the drivehardware
[23:16:58] <Blackmoore> harkens back to the 8-bit days when we did a lot of hardware hacking
[23:17:51] <paulej72> anyone want to test collapsable comments on dev.soylentnews.org?
[23:19:11] <paulej72> I have it working with the Improved Threaded comment mode. Please feel free to try to break it. I am trying to see what I broke in getting this working.
[23:21:23] -!- FunPika [FunPika!~FunPika@Soylent/Staff/Wiki/FunPika] has joined #Soylent
[23:21:23] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v FunPika] by juggler
[23:22:11] <TK_> I'm perusing
[23:23:29] <paulej72> If you have any comments, please post them on #dev. thanks
[23:28:17] -!- michealpwalls [michealpwalls!~michealpw@cxnwzhcb-dv1-9-367.hamilton.auracom.net] has joined #Soylent
[23:29:19] <michealpwalls> LOL 2 seconds of lag? Pfft!
[23:31:03] <deadpeas> [SoylentNews] - Superheavy Element 117 Confirmed - http://sylnt.us - superheavy-metal
[23:31:40] <Blackmoore> Doesnt look like it is working to me
[23:32:03] <Blackmoore> or i could not understand how it is supposed to be working
[23:32:32] <chromas> It only works in Improved Threaded view
[23:33:03] -!- TK_ has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[23:34:41] <michealpwalls> Hrmm
[23:35:37] <michealpwalls> There seems to be 3 different ways in which slashcode can create a cookie.
[23:35:51] <michealpwalls> Crazytalk :/
[23:37:14] <Blackmoore> ah found the option
[23:37:52] <Blackmoore> yes! this is nice
[23:41:39] <paulej72> here is a good testing story that has lots of comments https://dev.soylentnews.org
[23:42:33] <paulej72> I just fixed an issue with the thresholds and now it should work much better
[23:45:03] <paulej72> why does everyone stop talking when I eneter the room :(
[23:45:17] <michealpwalls> Hety paulej72
[23:45:32] <paulej72> helllo michealpwalls
[23:45:52] <michealpwalls> sry if dumb quest. but I am getting invalid certificate error from that link. Opera v20 (Blink)
[23:47:13] <michealpwalls> "The issuer of this certificate could not be found"
[23:47:20] <paulej72> michealpwalls: or dev server has only a shitty CA cert on it
[23:47:33] <michealpwalls> Ohh, k
[23:47:48] <paulej72> noone has CAcert as a root ca
[23:48:17] <michealpwalls> Hey! love the "Related Stories" feature there
[23:48:22] <paulej72> use http instead. Forgot I was doing testing on the https side when I copied that link
[23:49:12] <michealpwalls> Also, the comment paging is great
[23:49:20] <paulej72> michealpwalls: the related stories is on the main site too, vut requires the editor to add them
[23:49:28] <michealpwalls> or maybe I just never seen that b4 LOL
[23:49:45] <michealpwalls> Ohh, shame. I like that
[23:50:38] <paulej72> Improved Threadeing has no pagination. It is designed to give you a nice wall of comments :)
[23:51:00] <michealpwalls> What activates it?
[23:51:06] <michealpwalls> nvm
[23:51:08] <michealpwalls> found it LOL
[23:51:25] <michealpwalls> Whoa that looks nice (hifive)
[23:51:26] <michealpwalls> I like it!
[23:51:43] <Blackmoore> I think finding that option might be the only holdup I see.
[23:51:44] <michealpwalls> The buttons look really nice. Dunno what else to call 'em, I call everything a button LMAO
[23:52:07] <michealpwalls> Yea, I didn't notice there was new options under that dropdown menu. In fact I always just assumed the default was the only real veiw :O
[23:52:08] <michealpwalls> LMAO
[23:52:16] <michealpwalls> I don't experiment with options often :/
[23:52:33] <paulej72> I just looked at my back scrool and say that you just missed my announcment that I just updated the improved threaded to work how I wanted it too.
[23:53:01] <michealpwalls> haha yea, sorry
[23:53:17] <michealpwalls> I just dove into convo and tried to catch up LOL
[23:53:41] <paulej72> On production NCommander added Improved Threaded right at the begining of the site, but never rewrote the code to make it work better. It acted like threaded.
[23:54:20] <NCommander> paulej72, I never got very far with it; my attempts at removing it equally failed since part of it is stored in the bloody database :-P
[23:54:22] <michealpwalls> Oh man this is awesome!! No more opening sub-commemnts in a new tab or constantly clicking back!
[23:54:47] <paulej72> We have had the JS code that does the collapse and expand working for a while, but it did not work when comments were below your threshold.
[23:55:53] <michealpwalls> But that's all-or-nothing right? Either I expand all by lowering the threshhold or I manually open what I'm interested in. With this improved view, I can easily expand with that JS "button"
[23:55:58] <paulej72> I have made the improved threaded only use on threshhold and it only set what is minimized
[23:55:59] <michealpwalls> Which is really nice! (hifive)
[23:56:19] <paulej72> thanks
[23:56:38] <michealpwalls> What I like the most... Is you keep the actual anchor link...
[23:57:12] <michealpwalls> So if JS is not working as it should, or disabled, I can still click the friggin' comment's anchor to get to it. That's how slashdot should have added things :)
[23:58:18] mrcoolbp is now known as mrcoolbp|afk
[23:58:53] <michealpwalls> paulej72: How hard would it be to add tooltips for those buttons (The collapse/expand and collapse all/expand all) so when you hover you get a description?
[23:59:27] <michealpwalls> If it's too hard, don't worry 'bout it. If it's really easy, you should add little 'collapse comment', 'collapse thread' etc.
[23:59:53] <paulej72> right now the JS script load any minimized comments from the web site on the fly. I am toying with pushing the whole page as and using CSS and JS to minimize the comments based on the threshhold. this would rquire more work, and may not be very nice if JS is not working.