#Soylent | Logs for 2014-04-18
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[00:00:00] <michealpwalls> When in fact it (Maybe?) meant KiloBytes. hehe
[00:00:20] <Cyprus> actually, 1024 is not used above KB
[00:00:22] <Cyprus> its 1000
[00:00:59] <michealpwalls> Computers are base-2 machines. Everything is to the power of 2... Think about it ;)
[00:01:47] <michealpwalls> 2^0, 2^1, 2^2, 2^3. Given that, it's easy to see why numbers like 32, 64, 128, 256, 512 and 1024 are so common in computing..
[00:01:57] <michealpwalls> It's because they're numbers computers can easily generate by simply raising 2 to a power...
[00:02:09] <michealpwalls> But clean numbers like 1000... Try it out :)
[00:02:45] <michealpwalls> Well, without doing too much work anyways :P
[00:02:52] <michealpwalls> No need to make some convoluted mathematical proof for me haha
[00:05:19] <michealpwalls> Try this in your calculator: 2^9, then do 2^10 and then 2^11.
[00:05:35] <Cyprus> you can argue that, and its how they count, but the official standard is 1000 except for bytes in a kb
[00:05:41] <michealpwalls> See da pattern? (drunk)
[00:06:19] <Blackmoore> drunk sounds like a good idea. (I think I'll go find some :)
[00:06:32] Blackmoore is now known as Blackmoore|afk
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[00:10:32] <michealpwalls> Cyprus: The confusion is eliminated by simply the appropriate terms, like KiB ;)
[00:10:42] <michealpwalls> +using
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[00:12:54] <michealpwalls> Cyprus: Btw, what standard? :/
[00:16:16] <michealpwalls> Oh wait, I think I know what you're talking about.. The actual standard for "kilo", "mega" and "giga" etc?
[00:16:49] <michealpwalls> Those measurement terms, I mean.
[00:16:54] <michealpwalls> Meh, time for a break :P
[00:21:23] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Kim Dotcom Will Have Assets Returned - http://sylnt.us - some-guys-have-all-the-luck
[00:47:55] <michealpwalls> Anyone ever heard of the UK artist 'Logic'?
[00:48:06] <michealpwalls> https://www.youtube.com
[00:50:41] <michealpwalls> Better: https://www.youtube.com
[01:20:04] * NCommander is done w/ minecraft for awhile
[01:22:08] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Remote Sensing of Explosives - http://sylnt.us - more-bucks-for-your-bang
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[01:58:55] <Landon> ooooh boy, upgraded my linode
[02:00:11] <NCommander> Landon, we're updating the non-crit ones now
[02:00:45] <Landon> hope you have some numbers to crunch on how much the upgrade affected performance!
[02:01:17] -!- SpallsHurgenson [SpallsHurgenson!~SpallsHur@oyue-78-589-544-038.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #Soylent
[02:02:05] <Cyprus> linode issue?
[02:02:40] <Landon> upgrades
[02:02:46] <Landon> https://blog.linode.com
[02:03:16] <Cyprus> wow
[02:03:59] <Cyprus> its awesome to operate at that scale
[02:04:07] <Landon> I don't know how other providers deal with upgrades, but this is one of the reasons I like linode, every couple of years they get a significant free upgrade
[02:04:35] * SpallsHurgenson calls dibs on the old hardware :)
[02:04:47] <Landon> haha
[02:04:54] <Landon> I have to wonder how much old hardware they have around
[02:05:01] <dentonj> moo
[02:05:02] <bacon> (__)
[02:05:02] <Landon> if there's some curmudgeon that just hasn't upgraded since 2005
[02:05:02] <bacon> (oo)
[02:05:02] <bacon> /------\/
[02:05:02] <bacon> / | ||
[02:05:02] <bacon> * /\---/\
[02:05:02] <bacon> ~~ ~~
[02:05:02] <bacon> ...."Have you mooed today?"...
[02:05:31] <arti> landon: linode is pretty sweet
[02:05:59] * SpallsHurgenson sees the cow and has d.net flashbacks
[02:06:13] <arti> most of the other providers feel clunky, the only perk i would say with others would possibly be connection speed
[02:06:22] * SpallsHurgenson wonders if distributed.net is still doing... stuff
[02:06:34] <arti> is that like a botnet written in .net?
[02:06:38] <arti> oh wait
[02:06:51] <arti> back in the day, they were the ones who did the organized breaking
[02:06:56] <SpallsHurgenson> no, it was one of the earlier distributed computing efforts, sort of like seti@home
[02:07:09] <arti> yeah, i had a buddy who did that, some win2k cluster won
[02:07:12] <SpallsHurgenson> heh, they haven't changed their website in 10 years :)
[02:07:17] <AndyTheAbsurd> ____________________
[02:07:17] <AndyTheAbsurd> < I have mooed today >
[02:07:17] <AndyTheAbsurd> --------------------
[02:07:17] <AndyTheAbsurd> \ ^__^
[02:07:17] <AndyTheAbsurd> \ (oo)\_______
[02:07:19] <AndyTheAbsurd> (__)\ )\/\
[02:07:22] <AndyTheAbsurd> ||----w |
[02:07:24] <AndyTheAbsurd> || ||
[02:07:30] * AndyTheAbsurd expect to now get /kicked from the channel
[02:07:41] <arti> makes you want to get out and push
[02:11:12] * SpallsHurgenson searches for food
[02:11:44] * arti points to under the sofa
[02:12:20] <arti> many a morsel may be found in the great under sofa continuum
[02:20:11] <michealpwalls> "No spinning rust!"
[02:20:14] <michealpwalls> haha I like that
[02:20:22] <michealpwalls> From that Linode blog ^
[02:21:02] <michealpwalls> Landon: That is pretty cool. I would have thought they would essentially make you pay for those upgrades in some way :/
[02:21:12] <SpallsHurgenson> you never heard that expression before? I thought it was very... 2010 :)
[02:21:18] <michealpwalls> hah
[02:21:42] <SpallsHurgenson> sort of like referring to computers as "boxen" :)
[02:22:14] <arti> ugh
[02:22:23] <michealpwalls> I like their "TL;DR" summary: Linode = SSDs + Insane network + Faster processors + Double the RAM + Hourly Billing
[02:22:24] <SpallsHurgenson> 'course, these days computers are more slabsies than boxens :)
[02:22:29] <michealpwalls> (claps) finally a company that gets me :)
[02:23:16] <michealpwalls> "boxens" ? Never heard that
[02:23:31] <SpallsHurgenson> "double the ram"... does that mean every time you use it you get twice as much memory as before? :)
[02:24:23] <SpallsHurgenson> also, I already have an "insane network" at home... I want a competently designed network if I'm paying for it :)
[02:25:35] <Cyprus> i've heard both a lot
[02:26:07] <michealpwalls> Just played a bit of the Wikipedia game. Good times!
[02:26:13] <SpallsHurgenson> "insane network" makes me thinks that the routers are looping back to themselves :)
[02:26:31] <michealpwalls> Spalls: Randomly dropping packets and changing routes?
[02:26:35] <michealpwalls> That'd be pretty insane
[02:26:50] <arti> hahaha
[02:26:51] <SpallsHurgenson> or windows :)
[02:27:04] <michealpwalls> Or like, randomly segregating sections of the network for random periods of time
[02:27:06] <michealpwalls> That'd be even better
[02:27:12] <Cyprus> windows routers
[02:27:15] <arti> i think we should crowd fund a router
[02:27:16] <SpallsHurgenson> (that didn't make much sense, I know, but I felt it was time for a jab at microsoft :)
[02:27:26] <SpallsHurgenson> didn't MS use to have its own router?
[02:27:27] <michealpwalls> LOL arti a Windows router?
[02:27:28] <Cyprus> they actually tried to be one
[02:27:30] <SpallsHurgenson> (to the internet!)
[02:27:34] <arti> michealpwalls: one that randomly does stuff
[02:27:50] <Cyprus> they thought they could terminate vpns too
[02:27:51] <michealpwalls> LOL arti but it has to run Windows for better market penetration
[02:27:52] <arti> michealpwalls: segregating networks, disabling/enabling rules
[02:28:01] <Cyprus> which is funny, considering most of what you want to protect is windows
[02:28:03] <michealpwalls> I'd donate to that
[02:28:11] <arti> michealpwalls: plenty of linux devices are compromised, we should grow those
[02:28:34] <SpallsHurgenson> (I was right.. the Microsoft MN-700 wireless broadband router http://www.cnet.com )
[02:28:48] <michealpwalls> It probably runs linux, Spalls
[02:28:48] <michealpwalls> LOL
[02:29:02] <Cyprus> i was thinking along the lines of the old Routing and Remote Access service
[02:29:05] <NCommander> arti, I've decided I am going to build a Minecraft server
[02:29:14] <NCommander> arti, I've got a long vacation coming up in May
[02:29:22] <NCommander> w/ 3 day train ride across the country
[02:29:33] <NCommander> Plenty of time to sit on SSP, and build an epic spawn base
[02:30:22] * NCommander has learned with a good cobble generator + autosmelting stuff == relatively easy to build massive structures even in survival
[02:30:23] <michealpwalls> lol
[02:30:35] <michealpwalls> I am such a Minecraft newbie..
[02:30:39] <michealpwalls> No idea what you just said :(
[02:30:51] <MrBluze> http://www.tradewars.com
[02:30:52] <SpallsHurgenson> heh, the MN-700 "runs a WinCE-based firmware with a crippled boatloader that does not support Linux-based firmwares" :)
[02:31:20] <NCommander> michealpwalls, SSP == survival single-player
[02:31:24] * SpallsHurgenson sticks to "creative mode" in minecraft... I like flying :)
[02:31:29] <michealpwalls> Jah, WinCE. Interesting...
[02:31:34] <NCommander> cobble-generator == contraption that generates cobble automatically
[02:31:39] <NCommander> SpallsHurgenson, I'll provide a creative world!
[02:31:49] <michealpwalls> What's Cobble? Like stones?
[02:31:56] <NCommander> michealpwalls, basically
[02:31:58] <michealpwalls> CobbleStones hah I kill me
[02:32:01] <michealpwalls> :)
[02:32:10] <Cyprus> its what cobblers do
[02:32:37] <michealpwalls> So normally you would need to do some tedious task in game to get this Cobble?
[02:33:01] <michealpwalls> That's where Blizzard gets people with World of Warcraft.. LOL
[02:33:12] <michealpwalls> Suuure you can do x. But first you must do y for z hours JAH!
[02:33:30] <SpallsHurgenson> mining stone gets you cobble... but first you need a pickaxe... and those break after a whole
[02:33:34] <arti> "collect for us 20 raccoon nipples. Visit my cousin in %place%"
[02:33:42] <michealpwalls> LMAO arti
[02:33:51] * arti slays raccoons and is surprised that some drop none
[02:34:11] <SpallsHurgenson> stop killing boy-raccoons
[02:34:12] <arti> i like when i'm killing something that has 4 legs, and i need the hooves, that 1 drops... sometimes.
[02:34:22] <NCommander> SpallsHurgenson, for massive (and I mean massive) amounts of cobble, its easier to just use a cobble generator
[02:34:32] <SpallsHurgenson> nCommander: I know :)
[02:34:40] <arti> NCommander likes to participate in "coverups"
[02:34:42] <NCommander> SpallsHurgenson, want to help build it :-)
[02:34:47] * arti shows himself out
[02:34:50] <michealpwalls> I like when creatures drop gold and weapons/armour\
[02:34:59] <arti> michealpwalls: those are known as players
[02:35:01] <NCommander> My last server, perdition's path was pretty awesome
[02:35:12] <SpallsHurgenson> nah, as I said, I stick to creative mode so I don't need such complexities :)
[02:35:21] <michealpwalls> lol
[02:35:22] * arti likes survival
[02:35:23] <NCommander> SpallsHurgenson, I'm semi-tempted to build spawn in creative
[02:35:24] <michealpwalls> I call them all creatures
[02:35:28] * SpallsHurgenson just hits the "e" key and gets infinite resources :)
[02:35:29] <NCommander> Faster, but it seems cheap
[02:35:31] <michealpwalls> You're all just creatures!
[02:35:42] <NCommander> I really like building w/ sandstone
[02:35:49] <NCommander> BUT its freaking hard to get shittons of it
[02:35:53] <NCommander> Go through SO many picks
[02:36:03] <SpallsHurgenson> I tend to end up going with Tudor designs
[02:36:19] <michealpwalls> See i'm afraid to try minecraft.. lol
[02:36:32] <SpallsHurgenson> minecraft is basically digital Lego
[02:37:07] <SpallsHurgenson> except you never step on any sharp pieces in the dark :)
[02:37:26] <michealpwalls> Is it mmo?
[02:37:38] <SpallsHurgenson> not in the traditional sense, no
[02:37:58] <michealpwalls> mmo == addiction;
[02:38:02] <SpallsHurgenson> it does have an online mode though. And it's free once you buy the client (no monthly costs, no pay-for DLC)
[02:38:31] <michealpwalls> Is it open source?
[02:38:31] * arti backed during the alpha
[02:38:40] <arti> it is proprietary
[02:38:45] <SpallsHurgenson> no, I believe it is proprietary
[02:38:49] <michealpwalls> I see
[02:39:01] <michealpwalls> Was started by 1 guy, yes?
[02:39:20] <arti> yeah, -2 to PB on that Character sheet.
[02:39:28] <arti> i think he has +2 to INT
[02:39:41] <arti> level 6 java wrangler
[02:39:45] <michealpwalls> Nice!
[02:40:10] <michealpwalls> I like Java. It has grown on me over the year..
[02:40:12] <arti> apparently errbody could do it better
[02:40:17] <arti> they just didn't want to
[02:40:31] <arti> there's a C++ variant around somewhere, not nearly as feature complete
[02:40:37] <NCommander> arti, Pocket Edition is C++
[02:40:44] <arti> mucho friendlier with the ram
[02:40:51] <arti> different team did it?
[02:41:01] <michealpwalls> Wouldn't be as easily portable in C++ though..
[02:41:09] * arti refuses to pay for it again
[02:41:27] <michealpwalls> Unless you planned it well from the very get-go, you can do it obviously but that's a fucking tonne of work. Java makes it easy(tm)
[02:41:28] <michealpwalls> hehe
[02:41:33] <michealpwalls> Just code it, run it anywhere :P
[02:41:39] <arti> suuuure
[02:41:49] <michealpwalls> hehehe
[02:41:54] <arti> oh you'll run, run for the hills
[02:42:03] <michealpwalls> haha run to buy more rams? LOL
[02:42:03] <SpallsHurgenson> I thought PE was C++ because apple doesn't allow java apps in its app store... but I may be wrong
[02:42:22] <arti> C++ or objective c?
[02:42:22] <deadbeef> karma - c: 18
[02:42:27] <arti> bleh!
[02:42:34] <arti> BLEH! bleh? bleh.
[02:42:36] juggs|afk is now known as juggs
[02:42:47] <arti> greetings juggs
[02:42:59] <juggs> greetings arti
[02:43:01] <michealpwalls> Microsoft's Win32PE? That's all c mostly with the higher libs in c++. Apple is big on the Objective C though
[02:43:07] * arti does the secret handshake
[02:43:22] <arti> it's the objective, see!?
[02:43:25] <michealpwalls> I don't think Apple supports java on iOS at all
[02:43:27] * juggs does the funny walk
[02:43:27] <SpallsHurgenson> no, minecraft pocket edition, sorry
[02:43:33] <michealpwalls> oh sorry
[02:43:44] * SpallsHurgenson contacts the appropriate ministry
[02:43:52] <arti> Mine Kraft /german edition
[02:44:00] <michealpwalls> To do native iOS it's Objetive-C, SpallsHurgenson
[02:44:08] <michealpwalls> I don't think there's any way around that. Could be wrong, though :P
[02:44:09] <crutchy|zzz> Mein Kruft
[02:44:18] <arti> ^-- true story
[02:44:29] <michealpwalls> ... But you can do web-based things, with Emscripten..
[02:44:29] <arti> that's another good language name
[02:44:31] <arti> Kruft.
[02:44:34] <NCommander> I'm thinking I will likely build spawn 256x256, and put murals on the inner wall w/ wool
[02:44:37] crutchy|zzz is now known as crutchy
[02:44:59] <michealpwalls> So who knows how it's implemented. I would have tried the web-based way myself, 'cause I'm a fucking psycho (drunk)
[02:45:27] * SpallsHurgenson has many projects on planetminecraft available for download... including a brothel :)
[02:45:31] <arti> you should just make an obsidian chamber
[02:45:38] <arti> and nobody can leave
[02:45:50] <arti> call it hell, or ... the microsoft campus
[02:46:20] <arti> hmm, that would be kinda fun to model
[02:46:25] <michealpwalls> Any of you checked out BananaBread on Mozilla Developer Network? It's an odd name, but it's a web-based port of the open source FPS Sauerbraten (Sp?) using emscripten (flex)
[02:46:45] <arti> hmm, that's interesting
[02:46:55] * arti is awaiting the new wolfenstein
[02:47:02] -!- bacon has quit [Quit: bacon]
[02:47:09] <arti> also, g'day crutchy
[02:47:17] <michealpwalls> https://developer.mozilla.org
[02:47:21] <crutchy> morning arti
[02:47:29] <crutchy> `st coffee time :-)
[02:47:39] <crutchy> s/`/1/
[02:47:39] <SedBot> <crutchy> 1st coffee time :-)
[02:49:10] -!- bacon [bacon!~bacon@724-640-25-593.cust.aussiebb.net] has joined #Soylent
[02:49:27] <michealpwalls> It's always coffee time!
[02:49:44] <michealpwalls> The question is, would you like Espresso in that coffee or not? :P
[02:50:08] <crutchy> can't think until 2nd coffee :-P
[02:50:16] <michealpwalls> Yea same hehe
[02:50:33] <arti> such bs: arachnist [463/465] has come upon arti [124/507] and taken them in combat! 0 days, 22:43:44 is removed from arachnist's clock.
[02:50:39] <crutchy> chromas++
[02:50:39] <deadbeef> karma - chromas: 5
[02:50:54] <crutchy> chromas is an awesome penetration tester/bug finder
[02:50:56] <michealpwalls> How do you remove time from your clock? That's an odd concept!
[02:51:05] <michealpwalls> That's like.. So wait a minute, he caused you to time travel!?
[02:51:12] <arti> you find younger humans to fornicate with
[02:51:17] <michealpwalls> That's awesome!
[02:51:26] <michealpwalls> You should thank that guy :P
[02:51:43] <arti> or thank me!
[02:51:46] <crutchy> thanks chromas
[02:51:50] <crutchy> and thanks arti :-)
[02:52:13] <crutchy> chromas didn't penetrate me but he did find odd behaviour
[02:52:17] <crutchy> err
[02:52:38] <crutchy> is there an undo button
[02:52:49] <arti> yeah, it's a giant bottle you bash against their head
[02:53:25] <crutchy> the timeout saved me :-)
[02:53:38] <arti> we call those restraining orders
[02:53:41] <crutchy> well, it stopped bacon from hanging
[02:53:46] <crutchy> lol
[02:53:46] <michealpwalls> lol
[02:57:33] * juggs evaporates
[02:57:56] <chromas> backdoor_penetration++
[02:57:56] <deadbeef> karma - backdoor_penetration: 1
[02:58:12] juggs is now known as juggs|afk
[02:59:11] <crutchy> of cows
[03:01:06] <Konomi> right in the security
[03:01:22] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Losing A Memory Quiz To A Chimp - http://sylnt.us - did-I-forget-to-mention-the-chimp?
[03:02:52] <crutchy> with a dash
[03:05:04] -!- BadCoderFinger [BadCoderFinger!~BadCoderF@05-263-3-656.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #Soylent
[03:05:08] <BadCoderFinger> Yo
[03:05:38] <crutchy> oy!
[03:06:06] <BadCoderFinger> Hey crutchy!
[03:06:13] <BadCoderFinger> How are you?
[03:06:47] <crutchy> hmm can't complain
[03:06:51] <crutchy> :-)
[03:06:54] <crutchy> you?
[03:07:12] <BadCoderFinger> Not bad. Adding xtables targets to my firewall tool.
[03:07:36] <crutchy> iptables?
[03:07:39] <BadCoderFinger> No idea if they'll be in nftables, so might as well update my own stuff.
[03:07:54] <crutchy> ah
[03:07:56] -!- pbnjoe has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[03:10:03] <BadCoderFinger> Looked at nftables, but not running it on anything outside a VM yet.
[03:12:16] <BadCoderFinger> But I'm messing around with LXC, so I'll have a target to eval soon.
[03:17:23] <BadCoderFinger> So far, LXC is pretty spiffy. I got line speed over a bridged interface, pretty happy about that.
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[03:24:17] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v Bytram|away] by juggler
[03:25:24] * SpallsHurgenson jiggles the wire a bit
[03:25:34] <BadCoderFinger> Hey Spalls!
[03:26:04] Bytram|away is now known as Bytram
[03:26:33] <SpallsHurgenson> eeep!
[03:26:42] * SpallsHurgenson jiggles the wire back into its original position
[03:26:57] <BadCoderFinger> Bzzzp! Signal lost.
[03:27:12] <SpallsHurgenson> <whew>
[03:27:52] <BadCoderFinger> Cat chewing the wires?
[03:29:36] <SpallsHurgenson> kitteh is in the closet, I believe, working off her dinner through a strenuous napping exercise
[03:30:48] <BadCoderFinger> That should do the trick, heh.
[03:31:48] <SpallsHurgenson> I do not expect to see the cat for another hour to ninety minutes, at which time I will be informed of my obligation to wiggle string in a seductive and exciting manner
[03:33:39] <BadCoderFinger> Surely we as a species have invented machines for that.
[03:35:34] <SpallsHurgenson> having spent more of my income on cat toys than I am proud to admit, I can assure you that we have yet to invent a device which wiggles the string in a manner satisfying to the feline brain
[03:36:08] <SpallsHurgenson> on the other hand, I am reassured that I will forever have a purpose in this universe...
[03:36:33] <BadCoderFinger> Quite sad, really. From flight to moon landing in 65 years, yet the cat brain eludes us.
[03:42:31] <SpallsHurgenson> (oh thank god, it's going to be warmer on saturday)
[03:42:57] <BadCoderFinger> Yep! I could use some warm days.
[03:53:07] <SpallsHurgenson> the warm weather is not for me; it's for the world. You see, as soon as it gets warmer I can start wearing short pants again, and the world will once again marvel at my sexy legs :)
[03:55:19] <SpallsHurgenson> (heh, slashdot is one of the options as a tech news source on the win8.1 news app... where's soylent? :)
[03:56:20] <MrBluze> soylent is in the vegetarian section of the non-perishables isle
[03:56:30] <MrBluze> ironically
[03:57:24] <arti> "seductive and exciting manner"
[03:57:29] <arti> that works on people too
[03:57:37] -!- bacon has quit [Quit: bacon]
[03:57:39] <arti> i think its known as dancing
[03:57:58] -!- Cyprus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[04:00:43] <BadCoderFinger> Eh, if Miguel de Icaza started a news site, Microsoft would put it in their app.
[04:02:37] <SpallsHurgenson> <sigh> when winders crashed the other day, most of my data was backed up... but not my stickies :(
[04:02:58] <BadCoderFinger> And the next dot release of GNOME will look like Win8
[04:05:45] <SpallsHurgenson> it's the next firefox release that is scaring me... not only are they stripping away more of the interface, but apparently it won't be very compatible with a lot of addons
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[04:31:01] <crutchy> holy wars sux
[04:31:08] <crutchy> :-/
[04:32:37] <SpallsHurgenson> indeed! why don't people just acknowledge that the choices I have made in my life are the One, True Way of doing anything?
[04:33:25] <SpallsHurgenson> once they figure that out, we won't have any disagreements anymore :)
[04:34:11] <SpallsHurgenson> (ohmigosh, I think I just figured out how to achieve world peace! :-)
[04:37:32] -!- Nerdfest [Nerdfest!~quassel@614-36-601-610.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #Soylent
[04:39:44] <crutchy> it's easy to achieve world peace
[04:39:52] <crutchy> just change the definition of world peace
[04:40:09] <crutchy> world peace = corruption, war, hunger, poverty, etc
[04:40:15] <crutchy> woohoo! we have world peace
[04:40:21] <crutchy> now i can fianlly rest
[04:40:37] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Is Capitalism Working? - http://sylnt.us - depends-who-you-are
[05:01:12] -!- SpallsHurgenson has quit [Quit: kitteh wants to play and boxen want to sleep :)]
[05:03:21] <MrBluze> world peas
[05:03:42] * MrBluze exports frozen peas to the world
[05:04:15] <crutchy> are they made from soylent green?
[05:05:13] <MrBluze> certainly not
[05:05:33] <MrBluze> but you get a free pack of nerds if you buy 5
[05:06:47] <MrBluze> the current peace crisis will be resolved by a war in Ukraine
[05:07:30] <MrBluze> what's a good torrent site apart from the pirat bay
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[06:01:39] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Vegetable Breeders to Open-Source Seeds - http://sylnt.us - freedom-for-the-food
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[07:01:24] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - The Final Phase of the Solstice Mission - http://sylnt.us - consulting-with-nasa-on-project-naming
[07:01:31] <swiss> anyone here familiar with pig
[07:01:32] <swiss> ?
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[07:11:08] <NCommander> Ugh
[07:11:16] * NCommander seriously is not making any progress
[07:11:16] <NCommander> Fuck this
[07:44:00] <crutchy> what you up to ncommander?
[07:44:09] <crutchy> not that i'll prolly understand anyway :-P
[07:44:23] <crutchy> but interested to hear
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[07:58:41] <NCommander> crutchy, incorperation
[07:58:56] <crutchy> ah
[07:58:59] <crutchy> legal shit
[08:00:57] <NCommander> crutchy, yeah, burn ou is strong
[08:01:08] <NCommander> crutchy, which is really really doing SN kinda .... bleh
[08:01:44] <crutchy> how's life outside SN going?
[08:04:03] <NCommander> crutchy, up and down
[08:04:19] <arti> sounds like a job for fish tacos
[08:04:31] <crutchy> g'oop arti
[08:04:37] <arti> g'oop
[08:04:46] <crutchy> i'm making an irc game
[08:04:48] * arti is heavily contemplating buying a SSD
[08:04:57] <crutchy> it's fucking awesome. you like totally move n stuff :-P
[08:05:08] <arti> i recall the awesome days of being able to flood people offline...
[08:05:09] <crutchy> turn
[08:05:09] <bacon> turn: usage: turn [up|down|left|right]
[08:05:10] <bacon> turn: turn-add
[08:05:12] <arti> nick floods
[08:05:16] <arti> name change floods
[08:05:30] * arti pines for the days of yore
[08:05:42] <crutchy> back when real men slept on rocks
[08:05:57] * arti covers his slab casually
[08:06:18] <crutchy> and women chased and killed dinosaurs for food
[08:06:18] <arti> that's cool, so are you going make it like one of those north,west,south,east etc.
[08:06:36] <crutchy> dunno. i'm just making it up now :-P
[08:06:47] <crutchy> started about half hour ago :-)
[08:06:51] <arti> whenever i think of cave people, gary larson's comics come to mind
[08:06:55] <crutchy> turn up
[08:06:55] <bacon> turn: crutchy: (-3,1)
[08:06:58] <crutchy> turn down
[08:06:59] <bacon> turn: crutchy: (-3,0)
[08:07:04] <crutchy> turn right
[08:07:04] <bacon> turn: crutchy: (-2,0)
[08:07:05] <arti> so the reason for my client freezing randomly
[08:07:18] <arti> turns out was due to some wonky realtek drivers improperly handling mci calls
[08:07:24] <crutchy> turn right
[08:07:25] <bacon> turn: crutchy: (-1,0)
[08:07:27] <arti> which my client uses to play the sound
[08:07:33] <crutchy> oh
[08:08:19] <arti> you might be able to make a safe tumbler game
[08:08:39] <arti> pick out levels of difficulty, those create the tumblers.
[08:09:53] * arti resists the 1tb sata drive
[08:09:57] <arti> almost clicked buy
[08:10:11] <crutchy> atm there's a players file that stores x,y coords for each nick
[08:10:20] <crutchy> and you can adjust those
[08:10:26] <crutchy> but that's it
[08:10:30] <crutchy> so far
[08:11:36] <arti> still, that's cool, i'm excited to see where it goes
[08:12:07] <crutchy> its fun cos i can play it on irc and code without dc/rc
[08:12:30] <arti> ohhhh, due to the exec thing you setup?
[08:12:39] <crutchy> yeah
[08:12:48] <arti> well maybe not exec but it fired up something and handled the results
[08:12:50] <crutchy> makes programming for irc soooo much easier
[08:12:56] <arti> yeah, i was thinking about that
[08:13:05] <arti> software is iterative...
[08:13:22] <crutchy> if i wanna add a script, i just edit the exec file, reload, and then i can run it
[08:13:49] <crutchy> or if i edit a script, i just save and run
[08:14:28] <crutchy> test
[08:14:28] <bacon> alias requires additional argument
[08:15:06] <crutchy> test bleh
[08:15:07] <bacon> hi arti
[08:15:13] <arti> noice
[08:15:31] <crutchy> test bleh
[08:15:31] <bacon> hi arti hahaha someone's tinkering with my insides
[08:15:46] * arti usually has to buy dinner for that
[08:15:51] <crutchy> lol
[08:15:57] <crutchy> test bleh
[08:15:57] <bacon> msg=bleh
[08:15:57] <bacon> chan=#Soylent
[08:15:57] <bacon> nick=crutchy
[08:16:11] * arti has an urge to play with some file stuff now
[08:16:18] <crutchy> files are fun
[08:20:35] <crutchy> https://github.com
[08:26:06] crutchy is now known as crutchy|zzz
[08:26:11] <crutchy|zzz> turn-add
[08:26:11] <bacon> nick contains illegal chars
[08:27:44] crutchy|zzz is now known as crutchy
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[08:28:34] crutchy is now known as crutchy|zzz
[08:29:05] crutchy|zzz is now known as crutchy
[08:31:32] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Windows XP Lives On - http://sylnt.us - end-user-is-obsolete
[09:07:21] NightHawk is now known as NightHawk_AFK
[09:17:19] * MrBluze arrests illegal chars, locks them up and throws away the key
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[09:34:56] <crutchy> hey mrbluze
[09:35:05] <xlefay> ^
[09:35:11] <crutchy> and xlefay!
[09:35:13] <crutchy> :-)
[09:35:15] <xlefay> crutchy, !
[09:35:20] <xlefay> I actually never left :P
[09:35:26] <crutchy> i had an idea for my little game
[09:35:35] <xlefay> which game? :)
[09:35:38] <crutchy> i think i'll call it "IRCiv"
[09:35:47] <crutchy> a kind of civilization building game
[09:35:51] <crutchy> play by irc
[09:35:56] <xlefay> hmm, what does it do?
[09:36:41] <crutchy> i guess the idea would be to build units, towns, expand territory, kill bad guys, collect taxes, develop tech, etc
[09:36:46] <crutchy> similar to other civ games
[09:36:57] <crutchy> all commanded by irc
[09:37:07] <crutchy> except would be nice to have access to a pretty map
[09:37:16] <crutchy> i could do that with a gd script on a webserver
[09:37:49] <crutchy> start small but evolve :-)
[09:41:23] <xlefay> I see
[09:42:09] <crutchy> might not turn into anything, but i'll tinker
[09:42:17] <crutchy> tinkering is fun :-)
[09:42:24] <xlefay> Indeed it is ;-)
[09:43:10] <xlefay> So I set up a little internal vm net last night, I've got LDAP, kerberos, nfs all working (nfs for homedirs!); apt-cacher for some apt-get cache' and dang, it's looking nice!
[09:43:31] <xlefay> Also made some scripts for vmbuilder, to auto add new (ubuntu) VMs into ldap, etc. :P
[09:43:40] <crutchy> nfs is ok. i use it for the nas with my work app code
[09:43:42] * xlefay has been tinkering as well :P
[09:43:53] <crutchy> wow
[09:43:56] <crutchy> cool :-)
[09:44:21] <xlefay> also, I'm extremely interested in seeing your project progress :P
[09:44:26] <xlefay> keep us updated? ;-)
[09:44:28] <crutchy> kinda sounds similarish to the linode thing for SN
[09:44:48] <crutchy> i'll no doubt be spamming #test till all hours of nights :-P
[09:45:02] <xlefay> linode thing for SN?
[09:45:37] <crutchy> ldap, kerberos
[09:45:41] <xlefay> Linode is one of our server providers
[09:46:05] <xlefay> aah, yeah, we've got that stuff running on our nodes
[09:47:05] <drussell> Logging in is borked for me... Anyone else having issues?
[09:47:28] <xlefay> nope just logged in just fine
[09:47:56] <drussell> I was logged in on one machine, tried on another using SSL, wouldn't work, tried regular login... No joy... Went back to the other machine and I'm now logged out and can't log in there either
[09:48:22] <xlefay> I do know the pain of constantly being logged out it's annoying
[09:48:47] <xlefay> ugh and SSL logins redirect to non-ssl.. seriously :/
[09:49:20] <drussell> Haven't had any issues up until now. Other than the loadbalancer issues kicking me out I've been logged in for days continuously
[09:51:31] <NCommander> drussell, everyone got booted when the LB was put in
[09:51:46] <drussell> Hmm, worked for me now on the 2nd machine (about the 10th try)... Still can't login on the other. Something strange is going on... (I'm perfectly willing to entertain the suggestion that it's something here).. Hmmm
[09:51:58] <NCommander> drussell, delete cookies :-)
[09:52:24] <drussell> Yes, I understand why I was logged out with the LB.. That's how I knew something had been changed when moderation broke
[09:52:50] <NCommander> drussell, that's really irritating. Is it kicking you constantly now?
[09:53:02] * NCommander is bringing up a new web frontend
[09:53:39] <drussell> Now I'm logged in again on both machines, no problem... Did not delete cookies, it's just working again now... NP, just wanted to make sure it wasn't some horrible new breakage :)
[09:54:49] <NCommander> Nope, just same old same old
[09:55:24] <NCommander> sent 3307049 bytes received 4900338239 bytes 7902732.13 bytes/sec
[09:55:24] <NCommander> total size is 7583052332 speedup is 1.55
[09:55:25] <NCommander> Sweet
[09:56:12] <drussell> This one of the new linodes?
[09:56:46] <NCommander> drussell, I'm bringing up a second web frontend; end of site downtime for upgrading
[09:57:21] <drussell> Yes, yes... Excellent! I've been following the news on that front
[09:57:25] <drussell> NCommander++
[09:57:25] <deadbeef> karma - ncommander: 21
[09:58:05] <NCommander> xlefay, fluorine is ready to attempt to boot under its own power
[09:58:08] <NCommander> Moment of truth!
[09:58:13] * NCommander unmounts the HDD
[09:58:28] * xlefay bites his fingernails in anticipation
[09:58:49] <xlefay> nerves and all that... ;-)
[10:00:28] <NCommander> oh shit
[10:00:31] * NCommander forgot to disable slash
[10:00:34] <NCommander> *slashd
[10:00:47] * NCommander pounds emergency shutdown
[10:01:16] <xlefay> So far, I've saved Ubuntu mirrors a staggering 2.196 GB of traffic!
[10:02:01] <swiss> xlefay: apt-cache or squid?
[10:02:07] <xlefay> apt-cacher
[10:02:20] <swiss> <3 apt-cache-ng
[10:02:34] <swiss> i set it up at my school for people there, they didn't appreciate it enough
[10:02:38] <xlefay> I didn't install ng :/ I didn't notice it till I had set apt-cache up
[10:02:49] <xlefay> cacher*
[10:02:53] <swiss> so this is how you set up apt-cache-ng
[10:03:01] <swiss> "apt-get install apt-cache-ng"
[10:03:07] <swiss> ...
[10:03:09] <swiss> done
[10:03:10] <xlefay> it's pretty simple yea
[10:03:32] <swiss> then you set up the computers to point at that computer port 3142 as their apt-proxy
[10:03:33] <NCommander> Ubuntu 12.04.4 LTS fluorine hvc0
[10:03:34] <NCommander> Boom
[10:04:22] <drussell> I wish linode had FreeBSD instances... I'd probably move a few of my physical servers over to them in virtual land :)
[10:04:27] <swiss> xlefay: i just acquired access to our old hadoop clust PoC servers at work... I don't even know what to do with all this power
[10:04:38] <NCommander> root@fluorine:~# id mcasadevall
[10:04:39] <NCommander> uid=2500(mcasadevall) gid=2501(sysops) groups=2501(sysops),2500(firefighters),2502(db),2503(dev_team),2504(prod_access)
[10:04:42] <NCommander> I do believe we were in business
[10:04:50] <NCommander> drussell, you can run FreeBSD, its just not officially supported
[10:05:05] <swiss> xlefay: 24 cores and 192 GB of ram... what do i do with 6 of these?
[10:05:13] <xlefay> swiss, hmm..
[10:05:27] <drussell> NCommander: Hmm... Interesting... I might just have to try that out
[10:05:36] <swiss> that's 24 cores and 192GB of ram *each*
[10:06:09] <swiss> i literally have 144 cores and over 1 TB of ram
[10:06:13] <drussell> swiss, That's a nice score!
[10:06:29] <drussell> Your power bill is going to be even higher than mine :)
[10:06:38] <swiss> drussell: they're at work, they aren't coming home with me
[10:06:56] <NCommander> xlefay, fluorine is kerberosized!
[10:06:57] <drussell> swiss, Doubly nice :)
[10:06:58] <swiss> they're still the company's. They just became partially *my* test servers, versus just dead weat
[10:07:08] <swiss> I'll prob convert 1 or 2 into ESX instances
[10:07:53] <swiss> i'm thinking of doing my own hadoop testing on them, but i really really don't understand hadoop
[10:08:04] <drussell> In my case, since I own the company it's painfull whether they're sucking down power at the office or at home :)
[10:10:03] <drussell> I can't even imagine what it would cost to run all the old NetFrame quad-PPros we ran years ago at today's power prices... Yikes! Those things sucked back serious juice
[10:10:47] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Tennessee Says Yes to Free Higher-Ed Tuition - http://sylnt.us - gambling-with-education
[10:12:55] <NCommander> xlefay, fully kerborisized
[10:13:53] <NCommander> it works!
[10:14:06] * NCommander stuck fluorine's IP in the hosts file
[10:35:43] <drussell> I wish there was a way to override the 'maximum stories' to NOT max out at today's number of posts... I'd like to be able to make my index show (eg.) yesterdays stories as well up to the specified max (ie. default 30)... I suppose I should file a suggestion :)
[10:36:09] <NCommander> drussell, heh, that code is there
[10:36:17] <NCommander> Its commented out though from the /code authors
[10:36:29] <NCommander> (the max stories variable is silently discarded)
[10:36:42] <NCommander> I thought I had re-enabled it awhile ago, but looking at article.pl ... well ...
[10:37:03] <drussell> Way back in the day, it didn't make any distinction to "days" and I've hated that "feature" ever since LOL
[10:38:05] <NCommander> drussell, it was done due to load
[10:38:20] <NCommander> drussell, can you file a bug on this on github against the soylentnews project so I can remember to re-enable this
[10:38:30] <drussell> I'm (almost) tempted to grab a copy of /code and see for myself just how horrible I've always heard it is but have a feeling I might want to pluck my eyeballs out and never be the same :)
[10:39:39] <drussell> I LOVE that SN is relatively lightweight... ./ just got more and more annoying with time in regards to this type of thing. They must serve a zillion TB over there to get barely anything done :)
[10:40:36] <drussell> NCommander, Will do... (ticket for the # of stories vs day thing, I mean)
[10:41:06] <NCommander> drussell, its went on a diet on our current dev release
[10:41:20] <NCommander> drussell, we shaved 2/3rds the page load size off by culling a *ton* of dead JS
[10:41:32] <drussell> Double sweet
[10:41:33] <NCommander> Average load size is 40-50 kib
[10:41:39] <drussell> NCommander++
[10:41:40] <deadbeef> karma - ncommander: 22
[10:41:41] <NCommander> (aka, dialup usable :-))
[10:42:02] <NCommander> drussell, also, check otu what we did with commenting: http://dev.soylentnews.org
[10:42:14] <NCommander> drussell, http://dev.soylentnews.org
[10:51:36] <drussell> NCommander, Pretty slick... The only problem I can see so far is if you hide the post and replies with the . then open the post with + you have no way of seeing that there are any replies at all until you hit the . again or use ++
[10:52:06] <NCommander> drussell, it needs some work.
[10:52:26] <NCommander> drussell, its a port of a greasemonkey script to server-side. The neat bit is if you disable JS, you get 100% old behavior
[10:52:34] <xlefay> NCommander, can we have hover texts?
[10:52:45] <NCommander> xlefay, put your JS hat on!
[10:53:24] <drussell> Looks pretty good already at first glance other than that.... (At least from my little few minutes of playing with it). Nice work again, boys...
[10:53:40] <xlefay> ;)
[10:54:03] <crutchy> and hovercrafts?
[10:54:22] <crutchy> i want a red one
[10:54:31] <xlefay> only shiny ones :o
[10:54:45] <xlefay> woa, I'm still #3 on idlerpg..
[10:55:39] <drussell> Yeah, it could use hover texts to say what they are, too... Does that really need JS? It's an image, so doesn't the alt text usually show up in the browser?
[10:56:07] <crutchy> i thought that's what the title attribute was for?
[10:56:12] <xlefay> it is
[10:56:13] <crutchy> maybe not for images though
[10:56:20] <crutchy> i dunno i don't use it much
[10:57:35] <drussell> Been quite some time since I did any web designy stuff, so I'm stale and out of practice but I'm pretty sure that used to work unless my memory is totally failing me
[10:59:28] <chromas> Should work on any tag
[10:59:48] <xlefay> on almost every anyway
[11:01:10] * drussell smacks self on head
[11:02:20] <drussell> FFS, the problem I've been having here trying to install couple binary packages on this FreeBSD box is because I moved my pkg cache to one of my drive arrays and they're not powered on since I took the machine down to change RAM to 16GB 1600 MHz...
[11:02:26] * drussell smacks self on head again
[11:02:51] <drussell> I had to truss it to find that out... I'm a dolt
[11:03:09] <drussell> I don't usually have these problems at 3am :)
[11:03:31] <drussell> *9am* maybe... 3am is peak productivity time!
[11:04:00] <NCommander> drussell, pfft, install debian-kfreebs
[11:04:02] <NCommander> *bsd
[11:04:10] <NCommander> come over to the apt side, we have supercow powers
[11:04:16] <drussell> lol
[11:04:50] <drussell> That's still too 'linuxy' for my taste :)
[11:04:51] <xlefay> (it also moo's if you ask nicely)
[11:05:15] <drussell> moo
[11:05:27] -!- bacon [bacon!~bacon@724-640-25-593.cust.aussiebb.net] has joined #Soylent
[11:05:37] <drussell> moo
[11:05:37] <bacon> (__)
[11:05:37] <bacon> (oo)
[11:05:37] <bacon> /------\/
[11:05:37] <bacon> / | ||
[11:05:37] <bacon> * /\---/\
[11:05:37] <bacon> ~~ ~~
[11:05:38] <bacon> ...."Have you mooed today?"...
[11:05:39] <xlefay> /exec -o apt-get moo
[11:05:40] <xlefay> eh
[11:05:46] <xlefay> oh well, bacon did it anyway
[11:06:03] <drussell> Bacon was asleep at the switch? ;)
[11:06:31] <xlefay> no clue, was it?
[11:06:40] * xlefay looks at crutchy
[11:06:48] <crutchy> it was in #test
[11:06:52] <crutchy> just had to join it
[11:06:57] <crutchy> :-)
[11:07:17] <drussell> xlefay, bacon (~bacon@724-640-25-593.cust.aussiebb.net) has joined #Soylent
[11:07:32] <xlefay> drussell, I noticed that
[11:08:07] <drussell> Yeah, sorry... Delayed typing error. Got to find some new AAs for this keyboard
[11:08:35] <crutchy> might get a bit confusing if you get too many A's
[11:08:44] <xlefay> I'm a bit slow atm, doing ten things at the same time ;-)
[11:08:44] <NCommander> drussell, run slackware?
[11:08:50] <drussell> I'm still hobbled with a herniated disc in my back so have a bunch of machines strewn around the living room so I can try to get SOME work done with homebase on my couch :)
[11:09:16] <crutchy> i have a cinderella laptop on my desk :-P
[11:09:26] <xlefay> define pander
[11:09:29] <bacon> pander: 1 | verb | yield (to); give satisfaction to\n2 | verb | arrange for sexual partners for others\n3 | noun | someone who procures customers for whores (in England they call a pimp a ponce)
[11:09:31] <drussell> Lying on my back is fine... Sitting, standing.... not so much. Can't even attempt driving
[11:09:36] <xlefay> eh wth
[11:09:58] <drussell> s/Lying/Laying/
[11:09:58] <SedBot> <drussell> Laying on my back is fine... Sitting, standing.... not so much. Can't even attempt driving
[11:10:06] <NCommander> define dancing
[11:10:07] <crutchy> might need a longer timeout
[11:10:10] <bacon> dancing: noun | taking a series of rhythmical steps (and movements) in time to music
[11:10:23] <NCommander> neat, just like wall-e
[11:10:35] <crutchy> ~reload
[11:10:36] <bacon> successfully reloaded exec
[11:10:49] <crutchy> define has a 10 sec timeout now instead of 5
[11:10:52] <bacon> has a 10 sec timeout now instead of 5: 1 | verb | have or possess, either in a concrete or an abstract sense\n2 | verb | have as a feature\n3 | verb | go through (mental or physical states or experiences)\n4 | verb | have ownership or possession of\n5 | verb | cause to move; cause to be in a certain position or condition\n6 | verb | serve oneself to, or consume regularly\n7 | verb | have a personal or business relationship with someone\n8 |
[11:11:02] <crutchy> ???
[11:11:16] <xlefay> LOL
[11:11:24] <crutchy> stupid wolfram
[11:11:40] <crutchy> can't it detect when i'm being a retard?
[11:11:42] <xlefay> you did begin your sentence with 'define' ;-)
[11:11:46] <xlefay> ha
[11:11:52] <drussell> Have to watch what you say on this channel, you never know what bot is going to chime in ;)
[11:12:15] <crutchy> rofl
[11:12:15] <bacon> When you fuck little Annie in Anza
[11:12:16] <bacon> You get a great bosom bonanza:
[11:12:16] <bacon> Sucking Annie's soft tits
[11:12:16] <bacon> Makes her throw fifty fits,
[11:12:16] <bacon> And the fuck is a sextravaganza!
[11:12:23] <xlefay> say what now?
[11:12:23] <crutchy> holy crap
[11:12:29] <crutchy> didn't see that coming
[11:12:30] <xlefay> is that the random 'fortune' ? LOL
[11:12:50] * xlefay is laughing himself to dead now
[11:12:55] <crutchy> maybe i should turn the 'offesnive' mode off that one
[11:13:10] <crutchy> i think its the -o switch
[11:13:19] <chromas> Toggle according to channel
[11:13:33] <crutchy> ~reload
[11:13:33] <bacon> successfully reloaded exec
[11:13:34] -!- Subsentient [Subsentient!~WhiteRat@universe2.us/Subsentient] has joined #Soylent
[11:13:41] <crutchy> rofl
[11:13:41] <bacon> She often gave herself very good advice (though she very seldom followed it).
[11:13:41] <bacon> -- Lewis Carroll
[11:13:44] <drussell> I thought -o meant ONLY offensive on fortune
[11:13:55] <crutchy> yeah prolly :-P
[11:14:26] <crutchy> i didn't realise it would come out with *that* ^^^
[11:14:39] <xlefay> I liked the timing tho
[11:14:44] <xlefay> it was so fitting somehow
[11:14:55] <xlefay> instant subject change!
[11:15:26] <crutchy> naughty bacon
[11:19:15] <drussell> Sounds like a delicious porno
[11:19:43] <xlefay> !grab drussell
[11:19:43] <deadbeef> Added quote 119
[11:20:26] <drussell> LOL, oh sure... That's my first snarfed quote? Sheez
[11:20:58] <xlefay> ha sorry :P
[11:21:38] <drussell> You just KNOW that's going to be taken out of context ;)
[11:22:01] <crutchy> that's ok i'm sure xlefay has a few compromising quotes of mine too
[11:22:05] <xlefay> Why else would I !grab it anyway? ;)
[11:22:09] <crutchy> you're in good company :-P
[11:22:22] * xlefay has compromising quotes on almost everyone that talks often :P
[11:22:32] <SirFinkus> all of my quotes are compromising
[11:22:32] <xlefay> I'm the NSA of quotations here
[11:22:56] <xlefay> !quote SirFinkus
[11:22:56] <deadbeef> No quotes found with the text 'SirFinkus'
[11:22:57] <SirFinkus> although I don't think xlefay was here for my commentary on software licenses
[11:23:03] <xlefay> hmm
[11:23:06] <drussell> It should at least have been Naughty bacon? Sounds like a delicious porno but no, no... I fall victim to the dreaded grabber snafu LOL
[11:23:51] NightHawk_AFK is now known as NightHawk
[11:25:38] <crutchy> <drussell> Have to watch what you say on this channel
[11:25:42] <crutchy> ^^^ :-P
[11:26:18] <crutchy> you never know what xlefay is going to grab
[11:26:20] <SirFinkus> I'm logging channel
[11:26:29] <SirFinkus> but not wittingly
[11:26:56] <drussell> Yup, I just can't believe I walked right into that one... I EVEN KNOW BETTER :)
[11:27:32] <crutchy> for some reason i'm logging a serialized array of mixed multi-channel crap
[11:27:43] <xlefay> serialize() is evil.
[11:28:05] <crutchy> yeah
[11:28:16] <crutchy> good for hidden post fields though
[11:28:21] <MrBluze> !quote MrBluze
[11:28:21] <deadbeef> Quote 0 - <MrBluze> dumb question i know
[11:28:23] <xlefay> At some point, oftenly random, it's going to fail after working dozens of times
[11:28:25] <deadbeef> Also in quotes: 110
[11:28:32] <MrBluze> !quote 110
[11:28:32] <deadbeef> Quote 110 - <MrBluze> well if you stick a pipe into your cat, and connect it into your printer, u can print the internet too
[11:28:42] <xlefay> LOL
[11:28:43] <crutchy> lmao!!
[11:28:44] <xlefay> MrBluze++
[11:28:44] <deadbeef> karma - mrbluze: 16
[11:28:48] <drussell> WTF? lol
[11:28:57] <Subsentient> So,
[11:28:58] <crutchy> who needs context
[11:28:59] <xlefay> !karma xlefay
[11:28:59] <deadbeef> karma of xlefay is 47
[11:29:00] <xlefay> woa
[11:29:00] <Subsentient> printing cat shit?
[11:29:04] <crutchy> that was some funny shit
[11:29:10] <xlefay> cat /dev/internet ? :P
[11:29:12] <MrBluze> ;)
[11:29:38] * xlefay wonders what CUPS would have to say about that!
[11:29:45] <MrBluze> the topic was "best way to backup the internet is to print it out"
[11:29:50] <drussell> ln -s /dev/random /dev/internet
[11:29:56] <crutchy> i'll go ask my wife... she has two
[11:30:08] <MrBluze> are they D?
[11:30:15] <xlefay> crutchy, o.O are we still talking about printers? ;-)
[11:30:18] <crutchy> i had better not devulge that
[11:30:24] <MrBluze> D-vulge
[11:30:26] <crutchy> printing cups
[11:30:34] <drussell> DD
[11:30:41] <SirFinkus> !quote 200
[11:30:41] <deadbeef> Can't find quote 200
[11:30:41] <crutchy> i tend to just use the screen myself
[11:30:47] <drussell> Boobies have Jell-O filling!
[11:30:47] <SirFinkus> !quote SirFinkus
[11:30:47] <deadbeef> No quotes found with the text 'SirFinkus'
[11:30:52] <xlefay> !grab drussell
[11:30:52] <deadbeef> Added quote 120
[11:30:56] <crutchy> 8008135++
[11:30:56] <deadbeef> karma - 8008135: 6
[11:31:11] <drussell> Schweeeet :)
[11:31:16] <drussell> 8008135++
[11:31:16] <deadbeef> karma - 8008135: 7
[11:31:32] <xlefay> define boobs
[11:31:35] <bacon> boobs: 1 | noun | an ignorant or foolish person\n2 | noun | either of two soft fleshy milk-secreting glandular organs on the chest of a woman\n3 | verb | commit a faux pas or a fault or make a serious mistake
[11:31:39] * xlefay is particularly amused by the definitions bacon lists
[11:31:59] <MrBluze> define define
[11:32:00] <drussell> I call the left one 'Squeezy' and the right one 'Spunky'
[11:32:02] <bacon> define: 1 | verb | determine the essential quality of\n2 | verb | give a definition for the meaning of a word\n3 | verb | determine the nature of\n4 | verb | show the form or outline of\n5 | verb | decide upon or fix definitely\n(5 meanings)
[11:32:15] <crutchy> i doubt anything define could come up with would be more shocking than fortune -o
[11:32:28] <MrBluze> definition cannot be used in describing the word 'define'
[11:32:30] <MrBluze> redundnacy error
[11:32:36] <xlefay> crutchy, so when is bacon going to have it's next outburst? :)
[11:32:47] <crutchy> we will have the redundant department of redundancy all over us
[11:32:50] <SirFinkus> after about 5 more shots
[11:33:04] <crutchy> whenever someone rolls on the floor laghing
[11:33:18] <MrBluze> define usability
[11:33:21] <bacon> usability: noun | the quality of being able to provide good service
[11:33:23] <crutchy> s/lagh/laff/
[11:33:23] <SedBot> <crutchy> whenever someone rolls on the floor laffing
[11:33:25] <SirFinkus> define laghing
[11:33:27] <bacon> laghing: unable to find definition
[11:33:32] <xlefay> rofl
[11:33:32] <chromas> Is a roflcopter acceptable?
[11:33:33] <bacon> Never pay a compliment as if expecting a receipt.
[11:33:37] <xlefay> oog
[11:33:39] <xlefay> ooh*
[11:33:43] <crutchy> define oog
[11:33:45] <bacon> oog: unable to find definition
[11:33:49] <crutchy> oog++
[11:33:49] <deadbeef> karma - oog: 1
[11:33:52] <xlefay> It's going to take all my will power not to 'rofl' all the time now..
[11:33:57] <chromas> define clamdigger
[11:33:58] <SirFinkus> rofl
[11:34:00] <bacon> clamdigger: noun | one who digs for clams
[11:34:01] <bacon> The only cultural advantage LA has over NY is that you can make a right
[11:34:01] <bacon> turn on a red light.
[11:34:01] <bacon> -- Woody Allen
[11:34:18] <crutchy> i think it was kinda intended for you actually xlefay... not sure if i was supposed to give that away
[11:34:29] <drussell> Maybe it should be on a random count of rofls so it doesn't do it every time :) lol
[11:34:38] <xlefay> but fortune's are awesome
[11:34:39] <xlefay> rofl
[11:34:40] <bacon> Burnt Sienna. That's the best thing that ever happened to Crayolas.
[11:34:40] <bacon> -- Ken Weaver
[11:35:31] <xlefay> crutchy, lol :P
[11:36:34] <crutchy> need a 'rofl' script maintainer
[11:36:50] SirFinkus is now known as totallynotsirfinkus
[11:37:06] totallynotsirfinkus is now known as SirFinkus
[11:38:48] <chromas> roflscript
[11:39:07] <chromas> A new programming language brought to you by crutchy
[11:39:15] <crutchy> lol
[11:39:20] -!- NightHawk has quit []
[11:41:53] <drussell> One of my favories that fortune ever spit out (first saw it many years ago and was rofl for sure) was this one:
[11:42:07] <drussell> The Three Major Kind of Tools
[11:42:08] <drussell> * Tools for hitting things to make them loose or to tighten them up or
[11:42:08] <drussell> jar their many complex, sophisticated electrical parts in such a
[11:42:08] <drussell> manner that they function perfectly. (These are your hammers, maces,
[11:42:08] <drussell> bludgeons, and truncheons.)
[11:42:08] <drussell> * Tools that, if dropped properly, can penetrate your foot. (Awls)
[11:42:10] <drussell> * Tools that nobody should ever use because the potential danger is far
[11:42:12] <drussell> greater than the value of any project that could possibly result.
[11:42:14] <drussell> (Power saws, power drills, power staplers, any kind of tool that uses
[11:42:17] <drussell> any kind of power more advanced than flashlight batteries.)
[11:42:19] <drussell> -- Dave Barry, "The Taming of the Screw"
[11:46:28] * arti saves this
[11:50:08] <drussell> arti, What, you don't have fortune installed? What kind of system operator are you!? ;) How can you grep /usr/share/games/fortune/* for life's favorite quotes?
[11:50:54] <drussell> A novel approach is to remove all power from the system, which
[11:50:55] <drussell> removes most system overhead so that resources can be fully devoted to
[11:50:55] <drussell> doing nothing. Benchmarks on this technique are promising; tremendous
[11:50:55] <drussell> amounts of nothing can be produced in this manner. Certain hardware
[11:50:55] <drussell> limitations can limit the speed of this method, especially in the
[11:50:55] <drussell> larger systems which require a more involved & less efficient
[11:50:57] <drussell> power-down sequence.
[11:50:58] <drussell> An alternate approach is to pull the main breaker for the
[11:51:00] <drussell> building, which seems to provide even more nothing, but in truth has
[11:51:02] <drussell> bugs in it, since it usually inhibits the systems which keep the beer
[11:51:04] <drussell> cool.
[11:53:58] -!- SirFinkus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[12:00:41] -!- bacon has quit [Quit: bacon]
[12:01:28] <drussell> Ode to bacon.... Oh, how we'll miss theeeeeee...
[12:01:57] -!- bacon [bacon!~bacon@724-640-25-593.cust.aussiebb.net] has joined #Soylent
[12:02:27] -!- SirFinkus [SirFinkus!~SirFinkus@l-64-313-06-125.hsd0.wa.comcast.net] has joined #Soylent
[12:31:35] <drussell> NCommander, xlefay: BTW, I tested it and for hover texts / tooltip you just need to add a title= property to the img tags like title="Hide / Show Replies" or whatnot and it works great
[12:40:41] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Gamers' Cognitive Motor Performance Peaks at 24 - http://sylnt.us - Over-the-Hill
[12:46:15] <Subsentient> drussell: That's what I call a one-sided conversation rofl
[12:46:55] <drussell> Subsentient, Someone has to keep the lights on in here ;)
[12:47:00] <Subsentient> drussell: lo
[12:47:02] <Subsentient> lol
[12:47:05] <Subsentient> $burrito drussell
[12:47:05] * aqu4 chucks a nasty, rotten burrito at drussell
[12:47:55] <drussell> Subsentient, If you don't move around every once in a while the motion sensor on the lights goes out and you can't see the flying burritos! ;)
[12:48:35] <Subsentient> drussell: lol
[12:53:54] * crutchy plugs bacon-power into light
[12:55:19] -!- prospectacle [prospectacle!~31b5de25@yz60-107-798-39.pa.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #Soylent
[12:55:24] <prospectacle> good evening
[12:55:31] <crutchy> g'day
[12:55:55] <prospectacle> What's happening crutchy
[12:56:22] <crutchy> workin on a little game
[12:56:31] <prospectacle> nice, what kind?
[13:09:54] <crutchy> kiddywinks bed time
[13:10:10] <crutchy> a civ building kinda game
[13:10:21] <crutchy> played on irc :-)
[13:10:37] <crutchy> IRCiv
[13:11:19] <crutchy> not really anything yet, but it uses the exec bot so i don't have to worry about irc stuff
[13:19:17] <prospectacle> That's cool. So a text-based civ game?
[13:19:31] <prospectacle> Does it use ascii art, or just regular text descriptions?
[13:20:02] <prospectacle> I think text-based games should make a come-back. If games like 2048 can be popular, it proves that not all good games are graphics heavy
[13:27:33] <crutchy> i was thinking just controlled using irc, but have the data files read-only on a webserver
[13:27:42] <crutchy> so that map generators can be developed
[13:27:53] <crutchy> i wouldn't mind doing a map generator with php's gd
[13:28:19] <crutchy> well read only to public anyway
[13:28:36] <crutchy> would need to be writable by the irc script
[13:29:04] <crutchy> s/irc/game/
[13:29:04] <SedBot> <crutchy> would need to be writable by the game script
[13:32:09] <crutchy> not sure what the best way to do that would be. prolly nfs with an iptables rule permitting only my internal lan router
[13:33:10] <prospectacle> yeah you could manipulate the map with a script that won't run unless it's being called by localhost, or something.
[13:33:11] <crutchy> just starting out though. thinking about best way to organise/read/write data
[13:33:44] <prospectacle> so would you have the map open in one tab, while you're using irc to send commands in another tab (or window), or how would it work?
[13:33:47] * Subsentient pokes prospectacle
[13:33:54] <crutchy> yeah prolly
[13:33:58] <prospectacle> hey mr sentient
[13:34:18] <crutchy> map won't change too quickly so a tab would prolly work
[13:34:20] * aqu4 pokes prospectacle
[13:34:31] * Subsentient pokes prospectacle
[13:34:34] <prospectacle> gd is pretty sweet, easy to use. Just need to write your own little library to do your most common tasks and it becomes very powerful
[13:34:49] <crutchy> yeah. trying to think flexible/extensible
[13:34:54] <crutchy> for the game engine anyway
[13:34:59] <prospectacle> Subsentient, how's thing?
[13:35:22] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Working on Epoch 1.1, when I have the energy.
[13:35:58] <prospectacle> subsentient, that's good to hear. What is new in version 1.1?
[13:36:21] <Subsentient> prospectacle: For one, support for multiple config files, something distro maintainers will really want
[13:36:22] -!- amblivious has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[13:36:32] <Subsentient> That's already mostly stable
[13:36:46] -!- KonomiNetbook has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[13:37:53] <prospectacle> Subsentient, if any distro makes want to contact you have you put sufficient details/etc on your site? I think this epoch thing could be very useful if enough people knew of its existence
[13:38:23] <Subsentient> prospectacle: My contact information is quite public.
[13:38:56] <prospectacle> crutchy, whatever you do, make sure your text parser is better than zorks. No doubt you will, but I thought i'd mention it as I played zork recently and it was frustratingly obtuse
[13:39:22] <prospectacle> Subsentient, good stuff.
[13:40:01] <prospectacle> zork was probably made with very limited resources. These days we can afford to keep large lists of synonyms for every command/object that a user might refer to.
[13:40:16] <Subsentient> indeed
[13:40:40] <Subsentient> As one guy once said "I don't want to imagine the machine that needs time for DOS to load"
[13:41:09] <prospectacle> lol
[13:41:12] <Subsentient> I never forgot that sentence, pretty sure it's an echo from at least 2009
[13:41:27] <crutchy> explode is my friend :-P
[13:41:58] <prospectacle> I've spent a good ten minutes of my life trying to go down a staircase in an open trap-door, that's right in front of me.
[13:43:01] <crutchy> i think having data on the web might help
[13:43:02] <prospectacle> "go down stairs"->"You see no such thing", "use the stairs"->"I don't understand that command", "Enter the trapdoor"->"There is a wall there", "Go down the stairs"->"I understand you as far as wanting to go to the floor", etc
[13:43:19] <crutchy> might eventually be a web client for it
[13:43:27] <crutchy> atm just trying to keep it simple though
[13:43:57] <Subsentient> What's the worst part of being a cat?
[13:44:21] <Subsentient> crutchy: prospectacle
[13:44:46] <Subsentient> Using your tongue for toilet paper.
[13:44:51] * Subsentient hopes someone was eating
[13:45:13] -!- prospectacle_ [prospectacle_!~31b5de25@yz60-107-798-39.pa.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #Soylent
[13:45:17] <prospectacle_> That was weird
[13:45:25] <Subsentient> prospectacle: What's the worst part of being a cat?
[13:45:52] <prospectacle_> I saw it on the logs. Gross :)
[13:45:56] <Subsentient> :^3
[13:46:17] <Subsentient> Really old joke someone once told me
[13:46:19] <prospectacle_> My words stopped appearing so i had log out. Can't remain silent, I guess.
[13:46:26] <Subsentient> heh
[13:47:10] -!- prospectacle has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[13:47:15] <prospectacle_> There we go
[13:47:18] prospectacle_ is now known as prospectacle
[13:47:22] <xlefay> prospectacle_, you're internet made a temporary booboo I guess
[13:47:32] <prospectacle> how's your string library going, subsentient
[13:47:36] <xlefay> you could also, /ns ghost prospectacle # next time to kill of your ghost :p
[13:47:42] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Pretty much done.
[13:47:43] <prospectacle> xlefay, I reckon so
[13:47:55] <crutchy> Subsentient, don't knock it till you tried it :-P
[13:47:56] <xlefay> drussell, yeah, thx
[13:47:57] <prospectacle> xlefay, thanks for the tip. i'm not very fluent in irc
[13:48:00] <Subsentient> It's used by aqu4 extensively.
[13:48:06] <Subsentient> crutchy++
[13:48:06] <deadbeef> karma - crutchy: 51
[13:48:06] <xlefay> prospectacle, np
[13:48:40] <Subsentient> xlefay: Use a colon rather than a comma for nick completion, like a man!
[13:48:40] <prospectacle> Subsentient, that's great news. It sounds from what you say (and reading the code) like it would be quite fast. Have you done side-by-side comparisons with other libraries?
[13:48:58] <Subsentient> prospectacle: With standard lib, it's a bit slower, but bearably so
[13:49:09] <xlefay> Subsentient, who says I'm a man? ;)
[13:49:25] <Subsentient> The convenience and safety it gives me in aqu4 is worth the expense.
[13:49:41] * Subsentient buys xlefay a pink bicycle
[13:50:03] <xlefay> (just to avoid misunderstandings, I am in fact, male)
[13:50:17] * Subsentient buys xlefay a pink bicycle
[13:50:17] <xlefay> but I'll keep using them comma's!
[13:50:24] <prospectacle> Subsentient, I mean if you compared your lib to others and it was faster, you could publish the results and nerds would be like "well if it's better maybe I'll try it out" and you'll be famous and wealthy in karma
[13:50:34] <Subsentient> lol
[13:50:35] <xlefay> Subsentient, s/xlefay/herself/
[13:50:35] <Subsentient> perhaps
[13:50:38] <xlefay> dammit
[13:50:42] <Subsentient> fail
[13:50:50] <xlefay> hey.. you said 'lol'
[13:51:20] <prospectacle> Subsentient, I mean maybe you only need it for your own uses, but if it is in fact way better, maybe others would like to discover this fact.
[13:51:39] <prospectacle> String handling in c is kind of crap, so the man who could make it better would be a hero
[13:52:17] <Subsentient> prospectacle: problem with my library is that it is NOT unicode compatible
[13:52:52] <Subsentient> I don't even understand enough about unicode honestly
[13:53:01] <Subsentient> I have a few big gaps in knowledge that shouldn't be there
[13:53:03] <Subsentient> this is one of them
[13:53:12] <Subsentient> I know what it does etc
[13:53:18] <Subsentient> 16 bit etc
[13:53:18] <prospectacle> i guess that might be a problem for some, but if its stated clearly, those who need unicode can steer clear
[13:53:30] <Subsentient> but not the other details
[13:53:37] <xlefay> prospectacle, or submit patches!
[13:53:48] <prospectacle> xlefay, that's the spirit
[13:53:56] <Subsentient> UTF-8 for example doesn't make as much sense as you'd hope to me, for example
[13:55:58] <prospectacle> yeah I don't understand it either. All I know is i put charset=utf-8 at the top of my webpages or firefox complains in the console
[13:56:19] * Subsentient just read up on utf-8, and it makes more sense.
[13:56:30] <prospectacle> as great as unicode is, though, the vast majority of applications probably don't make use of it.
[13:56:37] <prospectacle> ah reading, of course!
[13:56:42] <Subsentient> So all chars >= 128 are a single byte
[13:56:51] <Subsentient> Yielding ASCII compatibility
[13:56:55] <xlefay> I hope your reading skills is utf-8 compatible!
[13:57:00] <xlefay> s/is/are/
[13:57:00] <SedBot> <xlefay> I hope your reading skills are utf-8 compatible!
[13:57:11] <Subsentient> s/>=/<=
[13:57:11] * SedBot offers Sybsantunt a /
[13:57:13] <Subsentient> s/>=/<=/
[13:57:15] <Subsentient> s/>=/<=/
[13:57:19] <xlefay> !grab SedBot
[13:57:19] <deadbeef> Added quote 121
[13:57:22] <Subsentient> So all chars <= 128 are a single byte
[13:57:28] <xlefay> ugh.. it don't do /me, *sigh*
[13:57:47] * aqu4 gawks at xlefay
[13:58:05] * xlefay throws a / at aqu4
[13:58:21] * prospectacle tests the /me function
[13:58:47] <xlefay> Oh my.. arti, best of luck!
[13:59:10] <prospectacle> so all printable ascii characters are < 128 and so if it's a 0 first bit it knows it's an ascii character?
[13:59:39] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Anything 128 or lower (not negative) is ASCII and shown as one byte
[13:59:52] <Subsentient> Above is used in multiple bytes
[13:59:56] <crutchy> php in_array
[14:00:00] <bacon> bool in_array ( mixed $needle , array $haystack [, bool $strict = FALSE ] )
[14:00:27] <prospectacle> Subsentient, well that say it's meant to be backwards compatible, so I guess all ascii (printable) characters are 128 or lower
[14:00:29] <prospectacle> crutchy, that's an awesome feature
[14:00:43] <prospectacle> php strrpos
[14:00:44] <xlefay> crutchy, can we please have an eval function so we can run statements on IRC, please? :)
[14:00:45] <bacon> int strrpos ( string $haystack , string $needle [, int $offset = 0 ] )
[14:00:47] <crutchy> those fucking needles & haystacks :-P
[14:00:54] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Yeah except Extended ASCII but nobody, NOBODY uses that.
[14:00:58] <Subsentient> Besides char is signed on x86
[14:01:17] * Subsentient is on ppc right now
[14:01:44] <prospectacle> php pdo
[14:01:48] <bacon> script error
[14:01:56] <prospectacle> oops
[14:01:58] <xlefay> php trigger_error
[14:01:59] <bacon> bool trigger_error ( string $error_msg [, int $error_type = E_USER_NOTICE ] )
[14:02:01] <prospectacle> I broke it
[14:02:13] <xlefay> php true
[14:02:13] <bacon> script error
[14:02:16] <crutchy> only functions prospectacle, no classes
[14:02:19] * Subsentient pukes on php
[14:02:24] <crutchy> or constructs :-P
[14:02:30] <xlefay> php closure
[14:02:31] <bacon> script error
[14:02:38] <xlefay> php Subsentient
[14:02:39] <bacon> script error
[14:02:39] <prospectacle> php imagecreate
[14:02:41] <bacon> resource imagecreate ( int $width , int $height )
[14:03:00] <MrBluze> php echo "lala";
[14:03:01] <bacon> script error
[14:03:07] * xlefay honestly hopes crutchy just downloaded an excerpt from php.net's docs. :P
[14:03:15] <MrBluze> php echo
[14:03:16] <bacon> script error
[14:03:21] <MrBluze> php print
[14:03:22] <xlefay> instead of just hitting the site every time
[14:03:23] <bacon> int print ( string $arg )
[14:03:25] <xlefay> php die
[14:03:26] <bacon> script error
[14:03:30] <xlefay> php exit
[14:03:32] <bacon> void exit ([ string $status ] ) void exit ( int $status )
[14:03:33] <xlefay> .. seriously? ;-)
[14:03:38] <MrBluze> php print ("who the fuck is Alice?");
[14:03:38] <bacon> script error
[14:03:39] * crutchy does his best innocent look
[14:03:41] <MrBluze> php print ("who the fuck is Alice?")
[14:03:42] <bacon> script error
[14:03:45] <xlefay> LOL crutchy
[14:03:55] <xlefay> define PHP
[14:03:56] <MrBluze> php print ('who the fuck is Alice?')
[14:03:59] <bacon> script error
[14:04:13] <prospectacle> php bbcode_smiley
[14:04:13] <xlefay> define PHP
[14:04:13] <bacon> script error
[14:04:20] <prospectacle> php bbcode_add_smiley
[14:04:20] <xlefay> define PHP
[14:04:21] <bacon> bool bbcode_add_smiley ( resource $bbcode_container , string $smiley , string $replace_by )
[14:04:29] <xlefay> ugh, it's getting throttled isn't it?
[14:04:31] <prospectacle> damn php has libraries for everything
[14:04:34] <crutchy> nope
[14:04:38] <xlefay> define PHP
[14:04:39] <crutchy> i don't think so
[14:04:40] <xlefay> define don't work?
[14:04:43] <bacon> don't work: unable to find definition
[14:04:52] <crutchy> prolly my interwebz isn't as quick as a linode
[14:04:54] <MrBluze> define bacon
[14:04:57] <bacon> bacon: noun | back and sides of a hog salted and dried or smoked; usually sliced thin and fried
[14:05:01] <xlefay> crutchy, eek.. linode's fucking slow
[14:05:06] <crutchy> oh
[14:05:16] <xlefay> although, probably faster than your internet
[14:05:39] <xlefay> linode itself is fast.. but you share the network connection thus, it's pretty slow
[14:06:26] <MrBluze> i liked crutchy's bash interface on irc
[14:06:32] <MrBluze> that was awesome
[14:06:35] <prospectacle> crutchy, http://au2.php.net
[14:06:42] <crutchy> speedtest only gave me 9.5/0.9
[14:07:11] <crutchy> woooooooooooW xlefay!!!!
[14:07:26] <crutchy> s/xlefay/prospectacle/
[14:07:26] <SedBot> <crutchy> woooooooooooW prospectacle!!!!
[14:07:29] <prospectacle> crutchy, one day we'll have the nbn, one day
[14:07:29] <crutchy> lol
[14:07:31] <crutchy> woops
[14:07:34] <xlefay> crutchy, image?
[14:07:52] <crutchy> programmer pr0n
[14:07:53] <xlefay> http://www.speedtest.net .. ehh that's from linode, but they cheat..
[14:07:59] <xlefay> linode to linode... *cheat*
[14:08:13] <crutchy> php doc lib = awesome *downloads*
[14:08:15] <bacon> script error
[14:08:47] <prospectacle> yeah only 5 meg for the whole manual in one file. you could do some good text-scraping from that bad boy
[14:08:59] <prospectacle> being as its html
[14:09:03] <prospectacle> unzipped it's probably like 50 meg I guess
[14:09:44] <MrBluze> "The trouble with jogging is that ice falls out of your glass"
[14:09:57] <crutchy> pffft... ice
[14:10:09] <xlefay> Actually.. it does seem Linode's network is a bit faster today (probably due to their upgrades)
[14:10:29] <xlefay> 27.7M/s instead of 3M/s; not bad
[14:10:42] -!- KonomiNetbook [KonomiNetbook!~Konomi@Soylent/Users/189/Konomi] has joined #Soylent
[14:10:47] <MrBluze> that's usb2 speeds
[14:10:48] <MrBluze> hi konomi
[14:11:11] <crutchy> wooooow
[14:11:16] <prospectacle> lol @ mrbluze
[14:11:16] <crutchy> that's fkin awesome
[14:11:23] <Subsentient> Come on over to Universe 2, where it's 700kbps up, all day, every day!
[14:11:35] <Subsentient> 10Mbps network switches FTW!!!
[14:11:45] <xlefay> xD
[14:12:25] <MrBluze> "you're not drunk if you can lie on the floor and not have to hold on"
[14:12:31] <Subsentient> Yeah the servers are on a 100mbps line, but this machine and all the other workstation dinosaurs are on a 10mbps switch
[14:12:35] <Subsentient> my other one died
[14:12:58] <Subsentient> but to be fair
[14:13:03] <Subsentient> this switch DOES have 8 ports.
[14:14:02] <prospectacle> I wonder how long until renting a server or vpn will seem as obsolete as like renting time on a mainframe.
[14:14:08] <MrBluze> and each port has 1 girl
[14:14:11] <Subsentient> But I'm on a residential DSL connection with a friendly ISP who's happy to let me run a server and gives me a static IP for $5
[14:14:19] <prospectacle> I mean all it would take would be a reasonably fast, reasonably reliable consumer internet; and some decent security
[14:14:32] <crutchy> php in_array
[14:14:32] <bacon> bool in_array ( mixed $needle , array $haystack [, bool $strict = FALSE ] )
[14:14:37] <crutchy> cooooool
[14:14:39] <prospectacle> subsentient, that's a pretty sweet setup
[14:14:49] <prospectacle> crutchy, is that using your local version now?
[14:14:50] <crutchy> goes off local files now :-)
[14:14:54] <crutchy> yep
[14:14:54] <prospectacle> cool
[14:14:59] <xlefay> Subsentient, and you live where?
[14:15:00] <crutchy> thanks prospectacle :-)
[14:15:29] <Subsentient> xlefay: Mesa Arizona
[14:15:30] <prospectacle> you could have manuals for everything. Now you just need to download all of wikipedia
[14:15:41] <Subsentient> USA
[14:15:43] <xlefay> Subsentient, I'm guessing that's somewhere in how do you call it again, US?
[14:15:45] <xlefay> yea
[14:16:07] <xlefay> From what I've heard about the US, you've got a pretty sweet deal ;)
[14:16:07] <Subsentient> xlefay: It's a really fucking hot place in Arizona
[14:16:10] <Subsentient> one of the hottest
[14:16:17] <Subsentient> one of the hottest in the USA
[14:16:28] <Subsentient> 110F for 270 days a year
[14:16:31] <prospectacle> what was the top temperature today?
[14:16:37] <Subsentient> like 98
[14:16:46] <Subsentient> It's spring here
[14:16:57] <prospectacle> wow, that's too hot
[14:17:36] <prospectacle> hope you like the heat or have an air conditioner. I'm thinking of moving to northern europe so i can be nice and cold all the time. Also the socialism.
[14:17:46] <Subsentient> prospectacle: We get like five to 15 good lightning storms a year and that's our rain for the year. We call it 'monsoon season'
[14:17:51] <Subsentient> Ridiculous
[14:18:03] <Subsentient> prospectacle++
[14:18:03] <deadbeef> karma - prospectacle: 6
[14:18:03] <prospectacle> lol, yeah
[14:18:38] <Subsentient> $sticky save <prospectacle> Also the socialism.
[14:18:38] <aqu4> Sticky saved. It's sticky ID is "5".
[14:20:08] <Subsentient> prospectacle: I was thinking about either New Zealand, northern Canada, or Siberia (Before Ukraine BS)
[14:20:22] <Subsentient> New Zealand isn't cold but I like New Zealand
[14:20:28] <MrBluze> NZ is nice
[14:21:11] <Subsentient> Were there any natives on NZ when they found it?
[14:21:37] <prospectacle> Subsentient, yeah nz is really nice, not very busy or exciting, but it's only got 2 mill. people so what do you expect.
[14:21:58] <MrBluze> yes
[14:22:03] <prospectacle> Subsentient, there were people before europeans. They signed a treaty with them. It was a bit of a cheat, but better than most "natives" get
[14:22:05] <MrBluze> but NZ was empty when the maori found it
[14:22:28] <Subsentient> So who here is from NZ?
[14:22:48] <Subsentient> Is it true they hand out pirate patches and bootleg Windows 7 Ultimate when you become a citizen?
[14:22:50] <prospectacle> MrBluze, dunno, haven't seen any evidence of any kiwis here, but with 4k members there must be some
[14:22:59] <prospectacle> subsentient, and rings of power
[14:23:18] <prospectacle> oops, I mean Subsentient, not MrBluze
[14:23:18] <Subsentient> :^3
[14:24:15] <prospectacle> At wellington airport they've got a giant golum from the mid-torso up, hanging from the roof. Giant, like must be four or five people tall, if you know what I mean
[14:24:19] <prospectacle> he's reaching for a giant fish
[14:24:28] <Subsentient> LOL
[14:24:44] <Subsentient> So juicy sweeeeet!
[14:25:04] <Subsentient> *crunch* nomm
[14:25:47] <prospectacle> NZ is very beautiful I've been there twice and I reckon I'll go every year or two as long as I live in aus.
[14:26:15] <Subsentient> prospectacle: You rich bastard, you have money to leave your country.
[14:26:17] <Subsentient> And a car.
[14:26:26] <prospectacle> auckland and wellington are proper multicultural cities (though not very big), but most people go for the countryside and nature I think.
[14:26:46] <prospectacle> Subsentient, NZ is closer than western australia.
[14:27:05] <Subsentient> Mexico is very close to me
[14:27:11] <Subsentient> I can't afford to leave the fucking county
[14:27:19] * Subsentient means county, not country
[14:27:25] <prospectacle> Does it cost money to cross the border, or you mean the travel costs in general?
[14:27:41] <Subsentient> both
[14:27:57] <crutchy> prolly have to bribe homeland security officers
[14:28:02] <prospectacle> NZ you have to fly, but it's pretty cheap, like a few days wages (for average wages)
[14:28:10] <crutchy> and customs
[14:28:12] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Let me do the math
[14:28:28] <prospectacle> ok..... go!
[14:28:44] <crutchy> lol reminds of *that* scene from team america :-P
[14:28:46] -!- dentonj has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[14:28:52] -!- dentonj [dentonj!~dentonj@217.33.iwh.wjw] has joined #Soylent
[14:29:13] <crutchy> its not about sex... it's about trust
[14:29:13] <MrBluze> i'm so ronery?
[14:29:29] <Subsentient> I make $3 a day,
[14:29:32] <Subsentient> wait
[14:29:33] <crutchy> eh a rittle ronery... poor rittle me
[14:29:38] <crutchy> :-
[14:29:40] <crutchy> p
[14:29:42] <crutchy> classic
[14:29:51] <MrBluze> it is
[14:29:52] <crutchy> $3/day ?!
[14:29:59] <Subsentient> ah
[14:30:02] <Subsentient> $45
[14:30:03] <Subsentient> a day
[14:30:09] <Subsentient> $1400 a month
[14:30:16] * Subsentient thinsk that's still wrong
[14:30:21] <prospectacle> that can't be right
[14:30:42] <Subsentient> 1400/31=45
[14:30:45] <crutchy> yeah people give charities a dollar a day for refugees n shit
[14:31:12] <MrBluze> $45 a day?
[14:31:20] <MrBluze> what kind of job pays that
[14:31:21] <Subsentient> seems so
[14:31:33] <Subsentient> MrBluze: Disability for being an OCD riddled fuckup
[14:31:42] <MrBluze> crikey
[14:31:50] <Subsentient> $1400 a month
[14:31:53] <Subsentient> combined
[14:31:59] <MrBluze> what country
[14:32:04] <Subsentient> I'd make $700 if I didn't live with my mother.
[14:32:10] <Subsentient> MrBluze: USA
[14:32:28] <Subsentient> So yeah, actually I alone make $22 a day
[14:32:38] <MrBluze> u can survive on that?
[14:32:46] <Subsentient> MrBluze: on $700? No.
[14:32:49] <Subsentient> Not even the rent
[14:32:59] <Subsentient> We go without good food at the end of the month a lot
[14:33:06] <Subsentient> and that's with $1400
[14:33:14] <crutchy> that... sucks... balls
[14:33:25] <MrBluze> USA ..
[14:33:26] <crutchy> you don't have kids to support though right?
[14:33:33] <crutchy> mortgage etc
[14:33:36] <Subsentient> crutchy: thank god not
[14:33:39] <MrBluze> should be called WTF, not USA
[14:33:54] <Subsentient> MrBluze: Lots are making about the same as me now
[14:33:56] <Subsentient> and they are WORKING
[14:34:10] <Subsentient> It's an abomination
[14:34:12] <prospectacle> $burrito USA
[14:34:12] * aqu4 chucks a nasty, rotten burrito at USA
[14:34:21] <MrBluze> and this country wants to go and invade more places
[14:34:23] <MrBluze> what the blazes
[14:34:29] <crutchy> i've seen some docos about the foreclosures and stuff. does seem kinda widespread
[14:34:44] <Subsentient> We are on a government program that pays 2/3 of our rent so we can live
[14:34:48] <Subsentient> called Section 8
[14:34:52] <Subsentient> so our rent is $300
[14:34:56] <Subsentient> otherwise we'd starve
[14:35:01] <MrBluze> russian commentry on US must be right - the US has about 2 years left before it defaults
[14:35:18] <MrBluze> as long as the rest of the world prevents any major wars, US loses
[14:35:25] <Subsentient> MrBluze: If it defaults it will be the result of quarrelling retards in congress.
[14:35:27] <xlefay> 'section 8' that doesn't sound cryptic at all
[14:35:30] <Subsentient> not the financial situation
[14:35:33] <prospectacle> That's good at least. The rent-paying thing.
[14:35:39] <Subsentient> MrBluze: Corporate profits are at an all-time high
[14:35:44] <Subsentient> the middle class however
[14:35:47] <crutchy> peter schiff has been calling for it for a while... all hinges on the willingness of the rest of the world to keep giving US real stuff in excahnge for worthless paper
[14:35:47] <Subsentient> is becoming the lower class
[14:35:53] <MrBluze> Subsentient: US money is fake
[14:35:56] <MrBluze> the economy is false
[14:35:59] <Subsentient> MrBluze: All money is fake
[14:36:03] <Subsentient> Fiat money
[14:36:12] <MrBluze> well it's not even the fiat money
[14:36:12] <xlefay> especially mine got I got no ;-)
[14:36:13] <MrBluze> it's the economy
[14:36:21] <xlefay> cuz*
[14:36:21] <MrBluze> economy = movement of things
[14:36:35] <MrBluze> that is fake
[14:36:42] <crutchy> i think fiat money is just a mechanism of exchange
[14:36:43] <Subsentient> MrBluze: You hear me? THe corporations here are doing better than ever, and everyone who was middle class is poor now.
[14:36:47] <MrBluze> if you do without food each month, then the economy is fake
[14:36:50] <crutchy> it's not meant to have real value
[14:36:58] <xlefay> Subsentient, what middle class?
[14:36:58] <MrBluze> Subsentient: the corporations are doing better because of your slavery
[14:37:03] <crutchy> but its based on faith that you can buy real stuff with it
[14:37:05] <MrBluze> but that doesnt make their profits real
[14:37:16] <Konomi> MrBluze: hey
[14:37:20] <Subsentient> MrBluze: I dunno, better look that up
[14:37:20] <MrBluze> hey Konomi
[14:37:23] <Subsentient> hi Konomi
[14:37:26] <crutchy> hi konomi :-)
[14:37:34] <xlefay> hi again x'D
[14:37:59] <xlefay> .. well, this is a first, everyone just randomly stops talking?
[14:38:04] <MrBluze> Subsentient: im just saying, ignore the numbers, look at the reality - you and many other americans are working for nothing, you are being defrauded of your wages .. this always precedes a collapse
[14:38:08] <MrBluze> the USSR went the same way
[14:38:11] <crutchy> USA will be in real poo if OPEC ever decides to trade oil in other currencies
[14:38:31] <MrBluze> in the USSR people read about "record crops, record productivity, amazing achievements" right up until it collapsed
[14:38:34] <Konomi> hey all
[14:38:40] <Subsentient> MrBluze: lol
[14:38:40] <crutchy> hey konomi :-)
[14:38:47] <crutchy> how you doin?
[14:39:04] <Konomi> same old same old
[14:39:11] <Subsentient> I don't consider corporate profit to be an achievement as much as unfortunate.
[14:39:25] <MrBluze> Subsentient: it's fake
[14:39:31] <Konomi> my momentum through life remains much the direction of the human race in general slow and in one direction ~
[14:39:34] <Konomi> ;p
[14:39:34] <MrBluze> the numbers are all cooked
[14:39:34] <crutchy> the stock market is just a big casino
[14:39:46] <crutchy> you can get rich or fall flat on your arse
[14:40:01] <Subsentient> If I could, I'd issue an executive order dissolving all protections for corporations and the legal recognition for corporations themselves, and file charges against the CEOs for all the shit they have been doing
[14:40:07] <MrBluze> crutchy: nearly all the stock market traffic nowadays is algorithm driven computers
[14:40:13] <prospectacle> Thing about USA is it has a release valve, ie elections, but it seems like people would need to turn out to vote, and also to ignore (or critically analyse) what the media is being paid to tell them to vote for.
[14:40:16] <crutchy> corporations aren't people
[14:40:24] <crutchy> employees are people
[14:40:29] <Subsentient> crutchy++
[14:40:29] <deadbeef> karma - crutchy: 52
[14:40:30] <crutchy> stockholders, customers are popel
[14:40:38] <aqu4> crutchy++
[14:40:38] <prospectacle> I mean if people voted for candidates who said "corporations have too much power", it would change, but people don't vote that way
[14:40:40] <crutchy> but corporations are taxed as if they are people
[14:40:44] <prospectacle> if they vote at all.
[14:40:47] <MrBluze> people are people
[14:41:23] <prospectacle> yeah, they are. So they can learn and change behaviour
[14:41:24] <MrBluze> america needs to cut off the cancerous growth on its back
[14:41:25] <prospectacle> in theory
[14:41:34] <MrBluze> slay the wormtongues
[14:41:39] <prospectacle> MrBluze, what growth is that specifically?
[14:41:40] <crutchy> corporations buy power from politicians willing to sell it... corporations aren't the only things that buy political power; individuals do too
[14:41:42] <Subsentient> MrBluze: I'll get the steak knife
[14:41:56] <MrBluze> prospectacle: this is a sensitive question
[14:42:06] <prospectacle> crutchy, yeah but compare the relative buying power.
[14:42:31] <crutchy> the problem isn't the buyer... it's the seller
[14:42:42] <crutchy> power shouldn't be on the market to begin with
[14:42:47] <Subsentient> crutchy++
[14:42:47] <deadbeef> karma - crutchy: 53
[14:42:47] <MrBluze> hmm
[14:42:51] <MrBluze> the problem is the userer
[14:42:53] <MrBluze> and the banker
[14:43:08] <MrBluze> and the judge
[14:43:11] <prospectacle> crutchy, how do we stop people selling power?
[14:43:17] -!- TK [TK!~9ff52002@159.245.ju.y] has joined #Soylent
[14:43:18] <MrBluze> prospectacle: culture
[14:43:20] <crutchy> take the power away from them
[14:43:21] <Subsentient> People are accepting unethical behaviour as tolerable, and it's resulted in a lack of progress for the human race
[14:43:22] <Konomi> solar panels
[14:43:26] * Konomi hides
[14:43:29] <crutchy> politicians shouldn't have as much power as they do
[14:43:30] <MrBluze> lmao Konomi
[14:43:33] <crutchy> and we give it to them
[14:43:34] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Easy, abolish currency.
[14:43:38] <MrBluze> if the US had culture, it would not be so bad
[14:43:49] <prospectacle> hmm. I think an alternative currency might be the answer
[14:43:53] <MrBluze> but it hasn't got culture.. it has Coca Cola, DC Comics and other shit
[14:44:04] <crutchy> remnibi or whatever the fuck its called
[14:44:07] <crutchy> :-P
[14:44:08] <TK> \Umm...morning...
[14:44:15] <crutchy> yuan
[14:44:18] <prospectacle> My socialist solution: distribute land-credits each month. People trade them as they wish, but they all end up back with the govt. eventually as people gotta use land.
[14:44:18] <prospectacle> problem solved
[14:44:32] <Subsentient> prospectacle: I have a better idea
[14:44:36] <Subsentient> a quota system
[14:44:39] <crutchy> the chinese will have a gold-backed currency eventually... they're hoarding enough gold for it
[14:44:48] <Subsentient> non-transferrable resource quota divided into categories
[14:44:49] <MrBluze> Distributist solution: each employee owns an equal share of the company he works for
[14:45:12] <prospectacle> subsentient, trade can be productive, though, to a degree, wouldn't you agree?
[14:45:15] <crutchy> what about if he leaves?
[14:45:26] <MrBluze> crutchy: he gets paid out
[14:45:30] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Productive yes, but it's a blemish on humanity.
[14:45:45] <MrBluze> but crutchy he has to buy in
[14:45:50] <crutchy> so how does someone get employed new?
[14:45:55] <crutchy> yeah
[14:45:58] <Konomi> I was just going to use a spread of thermonuclear devices across the planets surface
[14:46:00] <Subsentient> It's the idea that you must get before you give, and that it's ok for someone to suffer when you can help them, as long as they didn't give you something you asked for first.
[14:46:02] <crutchy> so its kinda what we already have
[14:46:04] <Konomi> nip the problem in the butt once and for all
[14:46:04] <prospectacle> MrBluze, I agree with that goal (more co-operatives, effectively), but you also gotta encourage people to start companies, so I propose progressive mutualisation. I.e. the workers gradually earn equity the longer they work, until it all equalises after a few years.
[14:46:20] <MrBluze> prospectacle: yes that system works also
[14:46:25] <MrBluze> but its the principle of it
[14:46:33] <MrBluze> u own the means of your labour
[14:46:46] <prospectacle> MrBluze, then the original investors can make their money back but the workers can earn a true stake over time. Everybody wins
[14:46:48] <crutchy> if i wanted to be a shareholder in the company i worked for, in capitalism there is a mechanism in place for that already (except for usually smaller private companies)
[14:46:48] <MrBluze> if you do a good job, you reward yourself
[14:47:02] <Subsentient> prospectacle: I prefer a horizontal, decentralized government that controls all, which the people control all of via digital democracy
[14:47:09] <MrBluze> crutchy: except in capitalism nobody reallt does that
[14:47:16] <crutchy> but why is that?
[14:47:19] <prospectacle> Subsentient, well you can have both. Quotas can be distributed but also traded. If you run out, you get another quota next month.
[14:47:34] <crutchy> answer: because they choose not to
[14:47:35] <Subsentient> prospectacle: No trade. the idea is to abolish currency
[14:47:37] <MrBluze> crutchy: because it's not really part of the deal ... in distributism it is an integral part of the deal
[14:47:55] <crutchy> you're talking about forcing people to invest their money in their employer
[14:47:56] <Subsentient> To allow trade and capitalism, but NOT, NOT, NOT!!! to allow the government to provide the facilities for it
[14:47:58] <MrBluze> the idea is .. you work for company A -> your fortunes are tied to its success, therefore nobody slacks off
[14:48:10] <MrBluze> crutchy: yes
[14:48:15] <crutchy> force = bad
[14:48:20] <MrBluze> no
[14:48:23] <MrBluze> because also
[14:48:29] <MrBluze> 1 employee = 1 vote
[14:48:43] <crutchy> most employees don't want to vote
[14:48:48] <crutchy> they just wanna get paid
[14:48:57] <MrBluze> they dont need to vote
[14:49:00] <MrBluze> but they have the right to
[14:49:14] <crutchy> its not worth losing property rights for
[14:49:25] <MrBluze> u work for qantas, you get to choose your destiny with your fellow employees - not some fat cat with a cigar
[14:49:27] <crutchy> i should have the right to spend my money how i want
[14:49:42] <Subsentient> crutchy: You will have property rights
[14:49:44] <Subsentient> All you want
[14:49:49] <crutchy> if i want to invest in my employer, i can already do that
[14:49:50] <prospectacle> crutchy, it's not forcing, it's an enitlement, like sick leave or long service leave. It's what employees deserve for a long period of dedicated employment and loyalty
[14:49:58] <Subsentient> When you take something from the government store, it's yours forever
[14:50:03] <MrBluze> distributism means u can buy and sell whatever u want - but companies are owned by their employees
[14:50:06] <crutchy> who pays ?
[14:50:10] <prospectacle> crutchy, only if you can find someone who wants to sell you their shares.
[14:50:19] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Corporate Design: An Energizer Versus an Eyesore - http://sylnt.us - Springfield-Opera-House
[14:50:23] <Subsentient> crutchy: you do, with quota
[14:50:25] <crutchy> government money doesn't appear out of thin air
[14:50:26] <MrBluze> u cant buy someone's job and enslave them
[14:50:33] <Subsentient> but the government uses a resource based internal economy
[14:50:42] <Subsentient> So no need for currency
[14:50:53] <crutchy> forcing people is bad
[14:50:57] <crutchy> no matter what form
[14:50:57] <Subsentient> There is no forcing
[14:51:11] <MrBluze> crutchy: its not forcing, its protecting your job from being owned by someone
[14:51:22] <MrBluze> its like protecting your freedom to earn a living
[14:51:24] <Subsentient> You can even start a business, but don't expect A. provided currency and B. business protections by the law
[14:51:45] <crutchy> i generally like to get paid when i get a job, not have to pay to get one
[14:52:12] <MrBluze> instead today: when you work for Qantas, you are for rent - Qantas doesnt give a shit about you personally and if you are flicked off, you are broke
[14:52:14] <prospectacle> crutchy, it's like saying you're forced to provide a safe work environment when you employ someone. Some things are a matter of fairness and humanity.
[14:52:31] <Subsentient> prospectacle++
[14:52:31] <deadbeef> karma - prospectacle: 7
[14:52:31] <MrBluze> crutchy: if you "buy in", you "owe" so if you "quit" you "get less"
[14:52:45] <Subsentient> should we legalize murder in the name of personal freedom? OF course not.
[14:52:47] <crutchy> yes... and that's bad
[14:52:59] <crutchy> i don't want to buy in
[14:53:05] <crutchy> i want to work
[14:53:26] <MrBluze> crutchy: the company pays you
[14:53:26] <MrBluze> and the longer you work, the more your share is paid out
[14:53:31] <prospectacle> MrBluze, Subsentient, have you heard of mondragon: http://en.wikipedia.org
[14:53:32] <Subsentient> Everyone, shut up and obey your gerbiley, burrito-wielding master Subsentient.
[14:53:37] <MrBluze> prospectacle: yes, i have :)
[14:53:44] <prospectacle> good
[14:53:45] <MrBluze> prospectacle: it's a freakin awesome system
[14:53:57] <MrBluze> prospectacle: have u heard of Chesterton
[14:54:00] <prospectacle> yeah, good to see real live successful examples of your ideals
[14:54:40] * Subsentient is not familiar with that company
[14:54:40] <prospectacle> crutchy, when companies aren't "forced" to provide fair conditions and remuneration, they pay shit. Look at any time and place in history (where they're not "forced') for examples of this.
[14:54:50] <crutchy> i do like cooperatives
[14:54:55] <prospectacle> crutchy, because corporations have more power than individual workers.
[14:55:08] <crutchy> if companies pay shit, nobody wants to work for them and they go bust
[14:55:09] <MrBluze> prospectacle: an author
[14:55:12] <prospectacle> crutchy, so workers combine, make a union, and get the laws changed so workers get better conditions.
[14:55:22] <prospectacle> crutchy, not if they all pay shit.
[14:55:31] <crutchy> unions are the cause of widespread use of overseas labor
[14:55:42] <MrBluze> crutchy: the idea behind 'buy in' is .. if you are an employee of a company, it's directly in your interests that the company succeeds, as it _guarantees_ a beter income
[14:55:43] <crutchy> they don't all pay shit, cos they have to make money
[14:55:44] <prospectacle> crutchy, and when there's high unemployment, it's a buyers market (for the companies)
[14:55:56] <crutchy> to make money they have to make widgets/provide services
[14:56:11] <prospectacle> crutchy, if there's high unemployment, they can almost all afford to pay low wages. It's supply and demand.
[14:56:15] <crutchy> when there's high unemployment, the price of labor MUST go down
[14:56:19] <prospectacle> crutchy, a few might pay well, but they can't employ everyone.
[14:56:34] <prospectacle> crutchy, yes, but how low can we allow it to go?
[14:56:45] <MrBluze> crutchy: and if by your hard work and dedication, your company succeeds and survives, your pay out is guaranteed to be good .. no mogul from Gulf n Western can buy your company, bleed it dry and cause it to default
[14:56:48] <crutchy> the laws of supply and demand apply to labor just as much as anything else
[14:57:06] <crutchy> your hard work is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it
[14:57:25] <MrBluze> crutchy: in distributism your hard work is measured by the success of your work
[14:57:26] * Subsentient pukes on the capitalist swine
[14:57:28] -!- KonomiNetbook has quit [Quit: leaving]
[14:57:37] <crutchy> subs
[14:57:45] <prospectacle> crutchy, yes the laws of supply and demand do apply, so if unemployment is high, then wages could potentially go well below the poverty level, so people can barely afford to have food and shelter.
[14:57:53] <crutchy> lol stupid auto thingy :-P
[14:57:56] <Subsentient> crutchy: I meant the bacon lol
[14:58:00] * MrBluze doesnt believe in socialism at all
[14:58:18] <crutchy> the poverty line also adjusts
[14:58:24] <crutchy> food prices are variable
[14:58:25] <MrBluze> people should spontaneously organize their own welfare systems
[14:58:41] <MrBluze> charities do a better job than the government in all areas of welfare imho
[14:58:54] <crutchy> if wages are low, prices go down (unless central banks flood the market with cash)
[14:58:59] <Subsentient> MrBluze: The thoughts that go through my mind are: Capitalism sucks, but socialism has failed in the past. I am tired of hearing what won't work, I want something better. I'll find something besides capitalism that DOES work. I don't care how.
[14:59:22] <MrBluze> Subsentient: government is there to regulate standards
[14:59:26] <MrBluze> not to enact them
[14:59:28] <crutchy> socialism is idealistic, but practically impossible
[14:59:39] <MrBluze> if a community wants a road, it organizes its own road
[14:59:40] <crutchy> keynes was a false prophet
[14:59:44] <MrBluze> according to government standards
[14:59:44] <prospectacle> crutchy, yes but there's no law that means food is affordable for most people. The market doesn't care how many people survive
[15:00:04] <crutchy> but if enough people can't afford food, prices will fall
[15:00:05] <prospectacle> I mean there are legal laws, but not economic suppply/demand laws.
[15:00:09] <crutchy> otherwise there are no buyers
[15:00:24] <prospectacle> crutchy, yes, but that doens't mean the majority will be able to afford it.
[15:00:25] <MrBluze> crutchy: if people can't afford food (in distributism) they wil find somewhere where there is food, or grow more food themselves
[15:00:35] <prospectacle> crutchy, just that some people will be able to afford it
[15:00:47] <crutchy> people can grow their own food now
[15:00:51] <MrBluze> and people with food might through charity give the others food - or they might not
[15:00:58] <crutchy> they can do that
[15:01:04] <prospectacle> crutchy, they'd need to be able to afford land.
[15:01:28] <crutchy> where will they get land?
[15:01:33] <MrBluze> crutchy: they buy land
[15:01:38] <prospectacle> crutchy, lots of things are too expensive for the majority, but their producers are still in business. There's no law of supply and demand that says something will be affordable to all.
[15:01:39] <crutchy> with what money?
[15:01:40] <MrBluze> or sell it
[15:01:46] <MrBluze> in distributism there is money
[15:01:51] <MrBluze> or currency anyway
[15:01:53] <crutchy> printed out of thin air?
[15:01:56] <prospectacle> crutchy, there's no law of supply and demand that would make food or any basic necessity, affordable for the majority
[15:01:58] <MrBluze> you can trade whatever way u want
[15:02:18] <MrBluze> as the tax system will be very light - government is tiny
[15:02:34] <MrBluze> governments job is to define standards and laws
[15:02:35] <crutchy> tiny government ++
[15:02:37] <prospectacle> MrBluze, what is the money based on/fixed to/controlled by?
[15:02:51] <crutchy> remove taxes and many current problems go away
[15:02:58] <MrBluze> prospectacle: i dont know exactly - only to say some how people pay their share to support the government
[15:03:11] <Subsentient> crutchy: I want an all-consuming behemoth that just happens to be very,very horizontal.
[15:03:15] <MrBluze> otherwise u dont have a society
[15:03:27] <crutchy> Subsentient: that's what you have
[15:03:36] <Subsentient> crutchy: No, it's very verticle
[15:03:54] <crutchy> so you want no federal government?
[15:03:56] <Subsentient> Power is too far away from the average
[15:03:57] <prospectacle> Thing is, government has untold wealth, we don't need to pay anything. Govt can print credits to use things like land, water, mining rights, logging rights. These things are materially valuable. Usage rights can be printed as money, and paid to citizens.
[15:04:25] <crutchy> the government only has what it takes from taxpayers
[15:04:31] <crutchy> it doesn't have anything else
[15:04:31] <MrBluze> crutchy: tiny government that makes laws/sets standards and runs courts, communities that run their police force / health system / education / everything according to standards
[15:04:34] <Subsentient> crutchy: I want a tiny chewey nougat federal center surrounded by a large, flat semi-sweet chocolate system of state and local governments
[15:04:51] <crutchy> subsentient: sounds good
[15:04:56] <crutchy> not really socialist though
[15:04:57] <prospectacle> crutchy, the government has the power to say "You can use this land for this purpose", that's not based on money, that's based on authority and power.
[15:05:10] <Subsentient> crutchy: I am not a strict socialist, I just want money to die.
[15:05:15] <crutchy> but that requires taking land from someone
[15:05:23] <crutchy> so someone loses
[15:05:28] <TK> prospectacle: what happens when the usage rights to a sizeable area are spread between 1000 people who can't all agree to the terms of the one person who wants to buy them for resource exploitation
[15:05:32] <Subsentient> I just want greed to die
[15:05:35] <MrBluze> i want no government except communities that form their own according to agreed principles so all the systems work together
[15:05:41] <Subsentient> or at least be crippled
[15:05:50] <Subsentient> I think I can cripple it
[15:05:51] <Subsentient> ;^)
[15:06:07] <MrBluze> Subsentient: you have to have a system where people have an incentive to build their community and work hard
[15:06:11] <crutchy> i think a small federal government is probably necessary for national defence, but that's about it
[15:06:16] <MrBluze> socialism kills that
[15:06:17] <prospectacle> crutchy, no it only requires having authority over what the land can be used for.
[15:06:18] <Subsentient> MrBluze: Indeed, that's not ahrd to do
[15:06:27] <Subsentient> hence the quota system, non-transferrable
[15:06:51] <crutchy> prospectacle: that's already law
[15:07:06] <crutchy> if i buy land, i require council permits to do anything
[15:07:21] <MrBluze> TK: in that case the exploiter has a problem
[15:07:24] <prospectacle> crutchy, yes, exactly, they already have that power. They could distirbute this power (the right to use x amount of land for purpose y) as a form of currency.
[15:07:32] <Subsentient> crutchy: I believe property rights are sacred, as is freedom of expression etc, but I want something better than an economy motivated by pure greed
[15:07:35] <prospectacle> crutchy, then they're not taking anything from anyone. It's a power they already have.
[15:07:56] <prospectacle> crutchy, then they don't have to take anything from anyone
[15:07:58] <MrBluze> Subsentient: distributism gives you an economy motivated by sorting out your problems yourself
[15:07:59] <crutchy> so what changes are you proposing?
[15:08:05] <crutchy> sorry i'm getting a bit lost
[15:08:20] <prospectacle> crutchy, that money be based on land-usage credits. I.e. you want
[15:08:39] <prospectacle> i.e. you want to use x acres you need x credits. Then govt can give these credits out equally, and people cna trade them
[15:08:41] <prospectacle> ie money
[15:08:45] <MrBluze> self interest can be good if self interest -> greater good
[15:08:48] <prospectacle> but money that doesn't need ot be taken from anyone, and doesn't need to be debt
[15:08:55] <Subsentient> crutchy: I propose a loosely regulated (but still technically part of the government) bit of "corporations" (but not motivated by profit)
[15:09:00] <Subsentient> and the quota system
[15:09:05] <crutchy> where does the government get the land in the first place?
[15:09:07] <Subsentient> followed by a giant resource based economy
[15:09:16] <Subsentient> crutchy: It owns the nation, it allocates land as required
[15:09:21] <prospectacle> crutchy, they already control land-usage rights, as you said
[15:09:25] <MrBluze> crutchy: best system is a kingdom
[15:09:28] <crutchy> so whatabout existing land owners?
[15:09:32] <Subsentient> that's theirs
[15:09:32] <prospectacle> crutchy, so they don't need to take it from anyone
[15:09:46] <Subsentient> you can request a chunk of land no problem
[15:09:51] <Subsentient> but you have a special quota for that
[15:10:00] <Subsentient> just like you have separate quotas for food and entertainment
[15:10:06] <MrBluze> the idea of royal estate (real estate) is still probably best
[15:10:11] <crutchy> so does that mean i don't own my piece of land any more?
[15:10:11] <prospectacle> crutchy, they would still own it. Crutchy, this is for things the govt already has power over. e.g. development, mining, etc.
[15:10:26] <MrBluze> no one owns land in australia, crutchy
[15:10:27] <Subsentient> crutchy: No, it means you have to get permission to own it, but then it's yours forever.
[15:10:29] <prospectacle> crutchy sure you do. But like you said you need permission from govt for certain kinds of uses.
[15:10:30] <Subsentient> there is no eminent domain
[15:10:35] <crutchy> but i pay a mortgage
[15:10:39] <crutchy> have been for years
[15:10:41] <Subsentient> Not anymore you don't
[15:10:49] <Subsentient> If you owned it before it's already yours
[15:10:53] <crutchy> so my equity vanishes?
[15:11:03] <Subsentient> crutchy: Won't do you a lot of good if there's no money will it
[15:11:13] <crutchy> yeah i'm lost again
[15:11:16] <MrBluze> all land belongs to the crown, in Australia
[15:11:16] <crutchy> :-P
[15:11:21] <TK> Aren't some parcels of land worth more than others
[15:11:25] <Subsentient> crutchy: you can own something without it being backed by money
[15:11:31] <prospectacle> crutchy, you already need permission to develop, right? Govt can decide how much development can take place, and distribute "development credits" to everyone. You want to develop your land, you need to get enough credits by trading with others.
[15:11:39] <Subsentient> TK: Yeah, that's why the quota is based numerically
[15:11:40] <TK> Who are the lucky ones that get the parcels with water sources?
[15:11:44] <prospectacle> crutchy, or they could release new "Crown land" and distirbute rental credits for it
[15:11:44] <Subsentient> some land is more valuable than others
[15:11:44] <crutchy> but i have a title to my property
[15:11:46] <MrBluze> prospectacle: that has failed already in the past
[15:12:02] <Subsentient> crutchy: that won't change
[15:12:05] <Subsentient> it's yours.
[15:12:08] <Subsentient> It's yours forever
[15:12:12] <prospectacle> MrBluze, which part?
[15:12:12] <Subsentient> and to add a better thing
[15:12:14] <crutchy> so i will still have a title to my property?
[15:12:20] <Subsentient> it's illegal for the government to take it to make an overpass
[15:12:26] <MrBluze> crutchy: your title is limited - you cannot declare 5 Smith Street to be "the Sovereign republic of SoylentLand"
[15:12:27] <Subsentient> crutchy: yes
[15:12:28] <Subsentient> very legal
[15:12:33] <Subsentient> completely yours
[15:12:36] <Subsentient> perhaps moreso than before
[15:12:40] <TK> What happens when you run out of land?
[15:12:46] <crutchy> i'm still trying to figure out what changes
[15:12:50] <Subsentient> TK: same thing that would happen if we ran out here
[15:12:54] <Subsentient> we're all fucked
[15:12:56] <MrBluze> prospectacle: the giving of land to people to use for themselves .. this was the soviet model and it failed
[15:13:14] <MrBluze> mainly because they took land from people who knew what the hell to do with it and gave it to people who had no clue
[15:13:34] <prospectacle> MrBluze, I'm not proposing giving away the land, but giving away rental-credits (land-usage, not land), and letting people trade them.
[15:13:37] <Subsentient> crutchy: A divided quota system that uses categories like food/clothing entertainment/recreation, that's NON-transferrable
[15:13:41] <Subsentient> you work for it
[15:13:43] <MrBluze> hmm
[15:13:44] <Subsentient> it's set at a level
[15:13:47] <Subsentient> recurs monthy
[15:13:55] <prospectacle> MrBluze, or other usage credits (development, water use,etc).
[15:14:02] <crutchy> Subsentient: sounds too complicated for my feeble mind to comprehend @ 11pm
[15:14:08] <MrBluze> in distributism not all that much changes ..
[15:14:09] <Subsentient> crutchy: lol
[15:14:14] <MrBluze> mainly company law changes
[15:14:19] <MrBluze> and government shrinks hugely
[15:14:27] <crutchy> i would love for government to shrink
[15:14:36] <MrBluze> u cant have multinationals anymore
[15:14:37] <crutchy> would require less taxes to support it
[15:14:45] <MrBluze> not in the same way
[15:14:50] <MrBluze> u can have companies join forces
[15:14:54] <Subsentient> well it's more like knocking down the skyscraper and using every bit of that rubble to build a huge horizontal bunch of office buildings
[15:14:58] <crutchy> i don't really like multinationals, so yeah lets fuck them off
[15:15:03] <MrBluze> but they cannot shift across the globe unless al the employees move house
[15:15:15] <prospectacle> MrBluze, imagine the govt releases 1,000,000 acres of crown land, (for example), and gives each aus. voter 1/10th acre rental credit each month. The specific parcels are chosen by auction. People can trade these credits, and they get new ones every month.
[15:15:29] <MrBluze> yeah maybe, prospectacle
[15:15:38] <crutchy> only problem is multinationals employ lots of people, so if we fucked them off, lots would be without jobs
[15:15:44] <MrBluze> it'd be King Bruce
[15:15:47] <prospectacle> MrBluze, people who want to use lots of land will have to work for it by trading with others.
[15:15:53] <Subsentient> I like big government, but ONLY!!! a certain kind. it needs to be far, far more controlled by the general population than before.
[15:15:53] <MrBluze> royal sovereign of the Kingdom of Australia
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[15:16:10] <Subsentient> Everyday citizens get to help run the nation
[15:16:20] <prospectacle> anyway, land-usage is renewable, is the point. Unlike gold, say. And it's stable, unlike debt.
[15:16:22] <crutchy> prospectacle: crown land isn't worth that much
[15:16:29] <crutchy> most productive land is privately held
[15:16:49] <prospectacle> crutchy, if people were allowed to use it they could make it productive.
[15:16:58] <prospectacle> crutchy, of course unused land will not be very productive, by definition.
[15:17:05] <crutchy> if that were the case it would already happen
[15:17:11] <prospectacle> or do you mean it's not arable at all?
[15:17:24] <prospectacle> crutchy, no, the govt, decides how much land to release for private use.
[15:17:26] <crutchy> look at production maps
[15:17:29] <MrBluze> Imagine this: land system continues as is, but if a company owns land, the employees own a share of it (but only insofar as he can vote on its fate). If an individual owns land, he owns it, and passes it on in his will,
[15:17:45] <crutchy> where there is the most production is where the most privately held land is
[15:17:54] <prospectacle> crutchy, lots of land is currently not allowed to be used, so of course it's not productive.
[15:17:59] <MrBluze> but in distributism there is no stock market
[15:18:02] <crutchy> a company doesn't own land
[15:18:09] <crutchy> its shareholders do
[15:18:14] <MrBluze> right
[15:18:17] <prospectacle> crutchy, a lot of crown land is just forest, of course it's not "productive" in economic sense.
[15:18:22] <MrBluze> distributism = no shareholders .. only employees
[15:18:41] <crutchy> but land held privately can't be forcefully taken
[15:18:42] <MrBluze> and quite possibly no banks
[15:18:45] <prospectacle> crutchy, actually legally companies can own things
[15:18:47] <crutchy> you would be fucking yourself
[15:18:56] <Subsentient> crutchy++
[15:18:56] <deadbeef> karma - crutchy: 54
[15:19:00] <crutchy> companies aren't people
[15:19:03] <Subsentient> crutchy++
[15:19:03] <deadbeef> karma - crutchy: 55
[15:19:14] <MrBluze> all companies have an ownership trail that leads to people
[15:19:21] <crutchy> yes
[15:19:32] <crutchy> if you take from a company, you take from people
[15:19:56] <MrBluze> the problem currently is that this trail is long
[15:20:02] <MrBluze> and people monopolize
[15:20:06] <prospectacle> workers also give to the company, so it's a trade.
[15:20:08] <MrBluze> and this results in slavery
[15:20:16] <crutchy> workers sell their labor to a company
[15:20:25] <crutchy> workers are like their own little companies
[15:20:42] <prospectacle> crutchy, right, and there are limits to how much they can sell. Because there is a great power imbalance.
[15:21:06] <prospectacle> crutchy, you can't sell your labour for $1 an hour because if you could, we would have people starving all over the place.
[15:21:23] <prospectacle> so we make a law that says 'These are entitlements'
[15:21:36] <MrBluze> crutchy: actually workers are modern day slaves
[15:21:40] <crutchy> the reason why companies form is that someone selling their labor decides to increase their productive capacity by hiring others to increase output
[15:21:43] <MrBluze> especialyl with mortgages being standard
[15:22:17] <prospectacle> crutchy, these days companies form to protect the investors from personal liability of what they do with their assets.
[15:22:23] <prospectacle> i.e. limited liability corporations.
[15:22:24] * MrBluze nods
[15:22:30] <crutchy> but there is still risk in investing
[15:22:57] <MrBluze> the risk of a company should rest with the company
[15:22:58] <prospectacle> you can take risks and make transactions and if you mess up, you only lose your original investments, it's not your fault, legally speaking, so you can't be sued for damages.
[15:22:59] <crutchy> if you invest in a company, you have a vested interest in the success of that company
[15:23:27] <MrBluze> crutchy: actually, if you invest in a company, you might have a vested interest in its failure
[15:23:36] <MrBluze> especially if you have a company that will profit from its failure
[15:23:49] <MrBluze> hostile takeovers
[15:23:52] <crutchy> but why would you invest in the failing company?
[15:24:03] <MrBluze> crutchy: because you might be part of the mob
[15:24:17] <prospectacle> crutchy, because you think you can make more money than you invested before it dies.
[15:24:17] <crutchy> well if there's fraud involved then that's different
[15:24:24] <MrBluze> see movie: Silent Movie - Mel Books
[15:24:26] <MrBluze> Brooks
[15:24:27] <prospectacle> crutchy, e.g. pump and dump
[15:24:56] <MrBluze> There are many companies that buy distressed businesses, milk them dry, and run
[15:25:04] <crutchy> but a pump and dump only works with poorly managed companies
[15:25:05] <MrBluze> in distributism, nobody is buying you out
[15:25:16] <MrBluze> you work for nothing, undercut the competition until you can turn a profit again
[15:25:27] <prospectacle> crutchy, fraud or not, the investors interests end at the share price. They're not responsibe personally for what the company does with their capital. Unlike an employee who is responsible for what they do with their labour.
[15:25:44] <crutchy> because they don't engage in fraudulent activity
[15:25:46] <MrBluze> crutchy: poorly managed companies punish employees who are powerless to do anything
[15:25:52] <prospectacle> crutchy, it might be "well managed" from the point of view of those who own and sell the shares before the company goes broke.
[15:26:57] <MrBluze> .. the current system abstracts and isolates owners from the problem - and people who have no real wealth or power take the hit
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[15:27:04] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v Bytram|away] by juggler
[15:27:12] <crutchy> shareholders are to companies like your family is to you. if you engage in fraudulent labor, your family may benefit from the payoff, but is it their fault if you get caught?
[15:27:29] <prospectacle> crutchy, but the shareholders elect the directors
[15:27:31] <prospectacle> does your family elect you?
[15:27:35] <MrBluze> distributism means the owners (employees) control their own destiny and live with their own failures
[15:27:42] <crutchy> prospectacle: yes
[15:27:45] <prospectacle> lol
[15:28:02] <crutchy> your family is a shareholder in your labor
[15:28:15] <crutchy> your wife likely owns half your assets
[15:28:17] Blackmoore|afk is now known as Blackmoore
[15:28:19] <prospectacle> yeah but they can't fire you. Your spouse can I suppose, but that's all.
[15:28:21] <Blackmoore> mornin
[15:28:32] <MrBluze> prospectacle: families are not a company
[15:28:35] <prospectacle> shareholders can fire directors
[15:28:35] <prospectacle> that's the difference
[15:28:36] <MrBluze> they are a family
[15:28:55] <MrBluze> if you break a family, it's as bad as amputating a limb
[15:29:01] <crutchy> if your wife finds out you're breaking the law, you think she doesn't have any voting power?
[15:29:02] <prospectacle> MrBluze, no they're not, but the "shareholder" analogy works, as long as you acknolwedge they're not voting shares.
[15:29:17] <MrBluze> prospectacle: only if you are an individualist
[15:29:22] <crutchy> if anything your family has more authority than the average sharehodler
[15:29:30] <MrBluze> i dont like individualism
[15:29:58] * Subsentient notes that the channel is becoming a good place to talk about meaningful topics in a respectful manner
[15:30:03] <Subsentient> The HORROR!
[15:30:04] <prospectacle> MrBluze, well I was granting crutchies point that it worked as a metaphor (ie in terms of prosperity, etc) but saying there are crucial differences.
[15:30:13] <MrBluze> individualists (economically speaking) see a person as the atom of society, but i see the family as the atom of society (economically speaking)
[15:30:20] <MrBluze> ok
[15:30:22] <prospectacle> crutchy, your spouse can leave you, and would be liable for having money from your ill-gotten gains.
[15:30:37] <crutchy> not likely
[15:30:39] <prospectacle> crutchy, your children can't though, and so wouldn't get in trouble if you paid for their education with ill-gotten money.
[15:30:41] <crutchy> she can leave you
[15:30:55] <prospectacle> crutchy, but that's not true for shareholders in a company
[15:30:57] <crutchy> she won;t be held liable
[15:31:08] <crutchy> its exactly like a shareholder
[15:31:14] <prospectacle> crutchy, she would if she knowingly profited from your crimes.
[15:31:23] <crutchy> but so would a shareholder in a company
[15:31:24] <MrBluze> crutchy: in australia you can get a divorce easier than you can cancel a car loan .. u CANT cancel a car loan
[15:31:36] <MrBluze> that is totally fucked
[15:32:10] <prospectacle> crutchy, a shareholder gets a votes every few years, and can easily walk away at any time
[15:33:00] <prospectacle> crutchy, a shareholder doesn't get in legal trouble when a company breaks the law.
[15:33:04] <crutchy> but the concept of shareholding is one where you are supporting a company but not acting on behalf of it; hence the need to separate liability
[15:33:18] <crutchy> its not a shareholders fault if a company engages in a crime
[15:33:20] <prospectacle> crutchy, but you are acting on behalf of it, you choose the directors
[15:33:21] <MrBluze> crutchy: the separation of liability was an invention of .. uhhh
[15:33:28] <crutchy> (unles the shareholder knew about it)
[15:33:32] <MrBluze> let's say.. dodgy bastards who have screwed us over good and proper
[15:33:50] <Subsentient> MrBluze++
[15:33:50] <deadbeef> karma - mrbluze: 17
[15:33:52] <crutchy> but shareholders don't engage in crime (generally)
[15:34:03] <crutchy> unless there is insider trading of course
[15:34:10] <MrBluze> crutchy: no, wrong
[15:34:19] <MrBluze> the whole idea of shareholders is criminal
[15:34:24] <crutchy> not really
[15:34:28] <MrBluze> it's false ownership
[15:34:41] <crutchy> its just ownership
[15:34:55] <crutchy> its investment
[15:35:03] <crutchy> like when a bank lends money
[15:35:05] <prospectacle> crutchy, the fact it's not a crime to hire directors who cause damages, is the point. It's true they're not legally responsible, but that's the problem.
[15:35:12] <MrBluze> ok, lets look at the bank now
[15:35:17] <MrBluze> your mortgage, that's you, crutchy
[15:35:23] <MrBluze> that's your fate, your wife's fate
[15:35:37] <MrBluze> now the bank actually can, without telling you, sell your mortgage on a market
[15:35:43] <crutchy> but shareholders don't knowingly vote for directors who commit crimes
[15:35:52] <crutchy> unless they are also committing crimes
[15:35:57] <crutchy> complicit
[15:36:15] <TK> Blackmore: mornin
[15:36:15] <MrBluze> but what mortgagees don't realize is the bank ISSUES money on the basis of your PROMISE to pay
[15:36:18] <crutchy> mrbluze: i'm sure it already has
[15:36:19] <prospectacle> crutchy, how would you know what a shareholder knows when they vote? I mean shareholders other than yourself?
[15:36:33] <crutchy> i don't but i don't need to
[15:36:33] <TK> It's been like this for the 45 minutes I've been on
[15:36:46] <prospectacle> crutchy, maybe they look out for the guy who will commit the most profitable crimes. Maybe that's exactly what they're looking for. It's not like they'll get in trouble for it.
[15:36:47] <crutchy> TK: i'm the lowly capitalist :-P
[15:36:55] <Subsentient> capitalism--
[15:36:55] <deadbeef> karma - capitalism: -1
[15:36:57] <TK> I think it was started by this article on the frontpage http://soylentnews.org
[15:37:12] <TK> crutchy: lowly capitalist pig dog?
[15:37:14] <crutchy> without capitalism all this internet stuff wouldn't exist
[15:37:17] <Subsentient> TK++
[15:37:17] <deadbeef> karma - tk: 1
[15:37:18] <prospectacle> crutchy, if you don't know, and don't need to know, then why do you say they don't knowingly vote for directors who commit crimes?
[15:37:30] <crutchy> because they don't know
[15:37:33] <MrBluze> crutchy: problem with the mortgage thing - it is usury and falsehood to trade in crutchy and family's destiny like a piece of rag in a market
[15:37:39] <TK> I'm more in the "bad, but the best system we've got" camp
[15:37:40] <Subsentient> crutchy: Probably not, but without socialism, there would be no borg cubes.
[15:37:41] <Subsentient> Wait...
[15:37:48] <crutchy> they don't trade my destiny
[15:37:54] <MrBluze> they do
[15:37:55] <crutchy> thats a bit over the top isn't it
[15:37:56] <Blackmoore> well I submitted that, so you know i have an opinion
[15:38:03] <MrBluze> the bank collectively baits and switches entire nations
[15:38:13] <prospectacle> crutchy, so how do you know what they do or don't know?
[15:38:16] <MrBluze> look at how Goldman Sachs screwed Europe
[15:38:29] <prospectacle> govt has been commercialised by capitalist companies, but is a govt invention
[15:38:34] <prospectacle> as is the copper-wire in australia. And the nbn
[15:38:36] <Blackmoore> I used to work for a bank. in recoveries. in the 90s
[15:38:37] <TK> Assuming Betteridge's law, I could guess your opinion
[15:38:41] <crutchy> goldman sachs may have (probably did) commit fraud, but that isn't the fault of capitalism
[15:38:44] <Blackmoore> they were doing the same shit then
[15:38:51] <MrBluze> it is the fault of capitalism
[15:38:58] <MrBluze> capitalism was invented by the likes of GS
[15:39:04] <Blackmoore> no - it is the fault if greed
[15:39:05] <crutchy> no it wasn't
[15:39:11] <Subsentient> crutchy: Capitalism devolves into corruption, greed, and cruelty 100% of the time
[15:39:15] <TK> Newsflash: humans like to take advantage of the situations they find themselves in
[15:39:21] <MrBluze> it's materialistic atheism just like communism
[15:39:23] <crutchy> you're confusing capitalism with human nature
[15:39:26] <MrBluze> just different ruleset
[15:39:44] <Blackmoore> There is greed and corruption under ANY system
[15:39:46] <MrBluze> both are geared towards monopolization and centralization of wealth and power
[15:39:55] <crutchy> any system is subject to the flaws of human nature
[15:40:00] <TK> Now if we could get rid of the human element....
[15:40:01] <MrBluze> the only difference is the means by which they force you to work
[15:40:11] <TK> But apparently that's "unethical"
[15:40:13] <Blackmoore> the problem right now is there are no checks and balances in the system
[15:40:27] <crutchy> look at the USSR
[15:40:39] <Blackmoore> the goverment has been bought, and are not prosecuting the greedy for crimes underr the law
[15:40:42] <crutchy> was supposed to be a socialist utopia
[15:40:44] <MrBluze> USSR and capitalism have the same destiny
[15:40:52] <Subsentient> crutchy: It was a fucking dictatorship
[15:40:53] <TK> Is it possible to set up a system that expires and is renewed/reborn in a slightly different form every 100 years or so>
[15:40:53] <crutchy> USSR was communism
[15:40:55] <Subsentient> oligarchy
[15:41:02] Bytram|away is now known as Bytram
[15:41:03] <MrBluze> the reason USSR failed faster was geolocation
[15:41:15] <Blackmoore> @TK - Jefferson wanted to.
[15:41:16] <crutchy> mrbluze: not really
[15:41:25] <MrBluze> crutchy: communism and capitalism are more similar than u think
[15:41:32] <TK> con sarnit, I was supposed to get work done today
[15:41:35] <crutchy> russia has some of the largest deposits of natural resources in the world
[15:41:46] <Subsentient> Because...
[15:41:49] <MrBluze> crutchy: it has problems with food
[15:41:49] <crutchy> they are very similar mrbluze
[15:41:50] <prospectacle> I think human nature can be separated from the system. Look at any two systems, and look at what people can regularly get away with under each system. In each case you'll have greed and selfishness ( human nature) but the specific results will be very different. Some systems are better than others.
[15:41:51] <Blackmoore> Jefferson wanted to FORCE the nation to reconsider the constitution ever hundred years
[15:41:51] <Subsentient> it's the largest nation int he world
[15:42:09] <crutchy> the similarities between communism, socialism and capitalism all stem from the human element
[15:42:15] <prospectacle> We can't just say all problems in capitalism are problems of human nature. It's not like we've tried every variation or though up every possible system. We need to look at the system as well.
[15:42:31] <MrBluze> crutchy: they stem from the atheist / individualist element
[15:42:42] <crutchy> capitalism has proven to lift more people out of poverty than socialism
[15:42:52] <TK> Then narrow the problem down: the problems with all of the systems is the gradual consolidation of governmental power into the hands of a very few
[15:42:53] <crutchy> the USA is a perfect example
[15:42:56] <prospectacle> The rules of the game do make a difference to the outcome. Even though it's always humans playing
[15:43:02] <Subsentient> crutchy: Look where it ended up
[15:43:13] <MrBluze> TK not government power, just power
[15:43:15] <crutchy> it has only gone downhill since the socialists took over
[15:43:19] <prospectacle> TK, sometimes the reverse trend also happens.
[15:43:38] <Subsentient> The USA was the pinnacle of capitalism and has now thrown it's perverted business ethics on the world like a bucket of slimey, 3 month old raw bacon
[15:43:41] <MrBluze> crutchy: some of them are socialists, yes
[15:43:43] <crutchy> you don't have capitalism any more Subsentient
[15:43:55] <Subsentient> I prefer the term hyper-capitalism
[15:43:57] <prospectacle> TK, used to be only white landowners had the vote, and only men. Power has been distributed as well.
[15:44:05] <crutchy> its called crony-capitalism
[15:44:08] <TK> Fair enough
[15:44:18] <MrBluze> crutchy: stock markets are not good, mate
[15:44:27] <crutchy> they are just markets
[15:44:31] <crutchy> nothing more
[15:44:33] <MrBluze> no
[15:44:35] <Blackmoore> prospectacle: the problems are human; that's why you should set up a system where you have checks and balances on the system.
[15:44:43] <prospectacle> TK, I agree with the problem you describe. I don't think it's inevitable or universal.
[15:44:47] <crutchy> (i prefer to call them casinos)
[15:44:49] <MrBluze> its different to trade in groups of people
[15:44:59] <MrBluze> versus products
[15:45:06] <MrBluze> companies are groups of people
[15:45:08] <prospectacle> Blackmoore, yes, definitely. The question is which ones work best, and which ones are missing, and which ones are clearly backfiring.
[15:45:10] <MrBluze> they should not be bought and sold
[15:45:12] <Blackmoore> it isnt the model itself - it is a vigilance of rooting out greed and corruption that is really hard to do
[15:45:16] <TK> prospectacle: that's going to be a major sticking point.
[15:45:18] <crutchy> they aren't
[15:45:20] <MrBluze> it's a form of slavery
[15:45:31] <crutchy> people aren't baught and sold in sharemarkets
[15:45:38] <crutchy> only assets
[15:45:43] <crutchy> financial stakes
[15:45:44] <TK> At the very least, effort must be made to prevent that situation
[15:45:44] <Blackmoore> crutchy: tell the to HR
[15:45:48] <prospectacle> Blackmoore, checks and balances can be done in almost infinite ways. The fact that there are some in place, which there are, doesn't mean we can't change or add them.
[15:45:55] <MrBluze> Blackmoore++
[15:45:55] <deadbeef> karma - blackmoore: 1
[15:46:10] <MrBluze> crutchy: think about it a bit more
[15:46:19] <prospectacle> TK: Given that the opposite trend also happens, it's a question of how to encourage one, and discourage the other.
[15:46:20] <crutchy> if i buy stock in a company, i'm helping to buy computers, expand the business etc
[15:46:27] <MrBluze> if a company had zero employees, it's nothing
[15:46:31] <Blackmoore> prospectacle: you are right.. and we need a to actually do something about bad players
[15:46:33] <prospectacle> crutchy, that's not true for publicly listed companies.
[15:46:48] <prospectacle> crutchy, none of the money you spend on publicly traded shares goes to the company itself.
[15:46:59] <crutchy> when a company releases stock, they are doing so to raise capital
[15:47:07] <MrBluze> crutchy: when someone buys a company and sacks everyone.. yeah, they never bought people .. right?
[15:47:12] <MrBluze> they never bought the fate of employees
[15:47:15] <Blackmoore> crutchy: if a company has zero employees; and just a board of directors it is most likely a paten troll
[15:47:18] <prospectacle> crutchy, yes, but most share trading is done on already released stock.
[15:47:19] <Subsentient> MrBluze++
[15:47:19] <deadbeef> karma - mrbluze: 18
[15:47:22] <MrBluze> i might as well go throw my slaves off a cliff
[15:47:41] <MrBluze> i only threw their clothes offf.. not my fault they were wearing them
[15:47:42] <crutchy> prospectacle: what's wrong with that?
[15:47:54] <crutchy> (last one)
[15:47:55] <TK> prospectacle: I would prefer that the initial state is universal representation
[15:47:56] <crutchy> lol
[15:47:56] <prospectacle> crutchy, the point is you're not helping the company to buy anything.
[15:47:57] <Blackmoore> !grab MrBluze
[15:48:03] <Blackmoore> damnit
[15:48:05] <crutchy> you're not hurting it either
[15:48:14] <TK> I don't think we're about to deny the vote to gays
[15:48:20] <prospectacle> crutchy, no, you're just trading.
[15:48:30] <crutchy> someone who bought those shares initially did help the company
[15:48:30] <TK> Current denials are for children and convicted felons
[15:48:42] <MrBluze> a company should not be able to be bought and sold. it should be owned by its employers
[15:48:48] <TK> mentally handicapped?
[15:48:50] <MrBluze> employees
[15:48:53] <prospectacle> TK, the problem is when power consolidates too much, but power consolidating too much isn't always what happens. There are many trends in play over time.
[15:49:09] <crutchy> mrbluze: that is already the case for a lot of companies
[15:49:16] <prospectacle> crutchy, yes, the initial investors did. But that's not what the sharemarket is (most of it anyway).
[15:49:19] <Subsentient> Can we just agree that capitalism is bad, hmkay?
[15:49:27] <MrBluze> crutchy: in distributism, the company may borrow money - but it's not transfer of ownership
[15:49:30] <Subsentient> Yeah, capitalism is bad, mmkay?
[15:49:33] <TK> I'm not denying any other trend, just highlighting the (most) problematic one
[15:49:41] <crutchy> without the sharemarket, there would be no raising capital
[15:49:44] <prospectacle> Blackmoore, yes punishing bad actors would be a good start. It seems only middle and low level bad actors get punished.
[15:49:55] <MrBluze> crutchy: without the sharemarket, there was heaps of raising of capital
[15:49:56] <crutchy> the sharemarket is just a capital exchange
[15:50:04] <crutchy> it would be much harder
[15:50:11] <MrBluze> it should be much harder
[15:50:15] <crutchy> a lot more companies would fail
[15:50:20] <crutchy> jobs lost etc
[15:50:22] <prospectacle> crutchy, actually there's lots of non-publicly traded shares and capital raising.
[15:50:24] <MrBluze> already 80% of companies fail
[15:50:28] <MrBluze> in 5 years
[15:50:33] <crutchy> yes
[15:50:41] <crutchy> its very hard already, so why make it harder?
[15:50:43] <MrBluze> no, they wouldnt fail
[15:50:44] <prospectacle> sorry I shouldn't say "actually" like that all the time, makes me sound like an arrogant prick.
[15:50:58] <MrBluze> but u wouldnt get such big companies
[15:51:07] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Old Tech: Record Store Day! - http://sylnt.us - put-the-needle-on-the-rekkid
[15:51:07] <TK> sound like?
[15:51:08] <MrBluze> but many small ones working together as required
[15:51:12] <crutchy> most companies are SME's
[15:51:29] <crutchy> companies only get really big with government help
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[15:51:47] <prospectacle> lots of different ways to raise capital, each one has different effects. Publicly traded shares has downsides that are unique
[15:51:55] <MrBluze> crutchy: abolishing stock markets would help ;)
[15:52:01] <crutchy> prospectacle: true
[15:52:02] <TK> What's the proposed check/balance for ensuring that high-level actors are punished, and that laws are enforced evenly across the board?
[15:52:11] <crutchy> who would it help mrbluze?
[15:52:13] <MrBluze> i dont want big fat cats buying everything up
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[15:52:26] <prospectacle> crutchy, most companies only exist with government help. the laws that create limited liability companies are laws made by government, not natural laws of nature.
[15:52:28] <MrBluze> crutchy: it would help companies not be bought out
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[15:52:41] <MrBluze> imagine that every business in australia was australian owned
[15:52:44] <MrBluze> every single one
[15:52:55] <Subsentient> If you create a capitalist system OR a non-sustainable socialist system, it will devolve into the USA's current state eventually
[15:53:14] <prospectacle> TK, it's a matter of degree. As long as there's at least some reasonable fear that a person at the top taking massive risks iwth other poeple's money, will be punished (or poor) if it goes wrong, things would get better.
[15:53:17] <crutchy> mrbluze: no stock market would make it harder for companies to raise capital to expand, prospectacle most SMEs don't get any government help, only government hindrance
[15:53:30] <Subsentient> Look at 'red' china
[15:53:42] <prospectacle> crutchy, the laws that allow limited liabilty are "government help"
[15:53:46] <Subsentient> They tossed the communism for hyper-capitalism and kept the authoritarianism
[15:53:48] <MrBluze> crutchy: there are other ways to raise capital
[15:53:54] <prospectacle> crutchy, the very concept of a corporation (as we have them) is a government invention.
[15:54:01] <crutchy> most companies aren't publicly traded prospectacle
[15:54:07] <prospectacle> it's allowed, created and protected by government charter
[15:54:16] <prospectacle> crutchy, you dont' have to be publicly traded to be limited liability
[15:54:31] <prospectacle> most companies are ltd
[15:54:34] <crutchy> no, but if you didn't have limited liability, there would be no employers
[15:54:34] <prospectacle> you'd be crazy not to be, if you can be (in this environment).
[15:54:49] <prospectacle> crutchy, look at history before limited liabilty, and you will see that you are wrong.
[15:54:52] <MrBluze> crutchy: not in the current system
[15:55:00] <crutchy> limited liability also applies to everyone, not just big corps
[15:55:01] <TK> The punishment shouldn't be for losing money on a bad investment, it should be for fraud or other malfeasance
[15:55:03] <prospectacle> crutchy, plenty of employers and employees before ltd liability was invented.
[15:55:24] <MrBluze> capitalism works fine without stock markets
[15:55:26] <prospectacle> TK, or excess structural risk. i.e. banks not having sufficient reserve
[15:55:32] <crutchy> mrbluze: true
[15:55:35] <TK> Being made poor may be acceptable in that case
[15:55:39] <TK> That's fine
[15:55:45] <MrBluze> unfortunately it fails without banks
[15:55:52] <Subsentient> 'night all
[15:55:52] <MrBluze> but it could conceivably work without them
[15:55:53] <Subsentient> for now
[15:56:02] <crutchy> mrbluze: banks are also an important source of capital
[15:56:04] <TK> But losing money resulting in jail time is not the answer
[15:56:13] <crutchy> night subsentient. good chat :-)
[15:56:18] <MrBluze> crutchy: banks are fraud
[15:56:19] <TK> happy weekend
[15:56:26] <MrBluze> the current system of fractional banking is fraud
[15:56:31] <Subsentient> TK: Yeah, but animal cruelty like Tyson for example, that's punishable by 30 years to me.
[15:56:32] <prospectacle> aus. only survived financial crisis because our banks have to follow very strict regulation that prevents them taking too much risk.
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[15:56:34] <crutchy> mrbluze: yes!
[15:56:48] <prospectacle> if you maximise how much capital risk a bank can take, then they won't go broke.
[15:56:48] <MrBluze> stock markets are also fraud
[15:56:53] <TK> Crime with actual harm, oh yeah.
[15:56:54] <crutchy> fractional reserve banking = printing money
[15:57:06] <prospectacle> by survived I mean avoided.
[15:57:15] <crutchy> stock markets are dnagerous for investors that don't know the game
[15:57:48] <MrBluze> the problems are: usury, fraud, slavery, theft and collusion
[15:57:53] <crutchy> but stock markets are very similar to banks as far as a company is concerned
[15:57:58] <MrBluze> that is what is broken about capitalism
[15:58:09] <crutchy> they 'borrow' money and pay interest (dividends)
[15:58:12] <crutchy> sort of
[15:58:21] <prospectacle> mrbluze, but they're so profitable!
[15:58:24] <MrBluze> get rid of the usurers, fraudsters, thieves and mobsters - and capitalism is fine
[15:58:28] <crutchy> mrbluze: those problems exist in any system
[15:58:32] <crutchy> unfortunately
[15:58:36] <MrBluze> but then u'd end up with a war
[15:58:45] <prospectacle> mrbluze, how do we do that?
[15:58:54] * MrBluze doesn't know
[15:59:01] <TK> and how do you quantify that?
[15:59:04] <MrBluze> ask someone smart
[15:59:09] <crutchy> i like the idea of cooperatives
[15:59:20] <crutchy> competing with private companies
[15:59:22] <prospectacle> yeah, funny thing is, I think we all agree about co-ops
[15:59:43] <TK> Say someone inherits the local cable monopoly, and no one wants to start another competing one due to the large amount of starting capital.
[15:59:44] <MrBluze> co-ops mean u cant have usury/fraud/thievery/mobs without people shooting themselves in the foot
[15:59:44] <crutchy> not-for-profits operating like a normal business
[15:59:55] <prospectacle> Crutchy doesn't think they should be required or forces to be co-ops. MrBluze doesn't think they should be optional. Don't know what TK thinks. I think co-ops are a great idea, and should be privileged in law somehow.
[15:59:57] <MrBluze> because there is no way to hide behind your own stupidity
[16:00:09] <TK> TK just likes asking questions
[16:00:29] <crutchy> prospectacle: NFPs have some benefits in the law
[16:00:38] <crutchy> but i don't theink they're needed to compete
[16:00:44] <prospectacle> so we can all agree (i think) on co-ops. Let's all start a co-op and be done with it.
[16:00:50] <crutchy> lol
[16:00:52] <crutchy> yesh
[16:00:53] <crutchy> coop++
[16:00:53] <deadbeef> karma - coop: 1
[16:01:06] <MrBluze> TK: in distributism, the cable company is owned by its employees, who might just be happy
[16:01:22] <crutchy> i think all systems can co-exists
[16:01:27] <crutchy> everyone can choose
[16:01:30] <MrBluze> and no one inherits it, no one can buy it
[16:01:37] <MrBluze> crutchy: currently no one can choose
[16:01:45] <MrBluze> because the laws favour capitalism
[16:01:50] <crutchy> we can all choose to start a coop if we want
[16:01:59] <crutchy> and compete with private companies
[16:02:02] <MrBluze> mondragon survived because spain was so damn poor it had no say
[16:02:30] <MrBluze> but generally they are plagued with legal problems and get killed by governments
[16:02:43] <crutchy> private companies have a disadvantage over a coop: they pay dividends
[16:02:51] <crutchy> means less capital
[16:02:54] <crutchy> for growth
[16:03:10] <crutchy> but capital must come from somewhere
[16:03:11] <MrBluze> crutchy: private companies are a huge disadvantage because there is less incentive to work hard and smart
[16:03:24] <MrBluze> and no loyalty
[16:03:31] <crutchy> i disagree there: people work hard for their own benefit
[16:03:33] <TK> How are profits handled in a co-op?
[16:03:39] <TK> Are they just reinvested?
[16:03:46] <prospectacle> TK, if it's a workers co-op, the workers get them
[16:03:51] <crutchy> in a non-trading co-op yeah (TK)
[16:04:00] <MrBluze> crutchy: distributist companies do better because the employees are directly working for their own benefit
[16:04:04] <MrBluze> and not for the shareholder's benefit
[16:04:06] <prospectacle> TK, if it's a customer co-op (e.g. a credit union), the crustomers get better rates/prices
[16:04:11] <crutchy> a non-trading co-op is basically a NFP
[16:04:17] <TK> crustomers, I like tha
[16:04:18] <TK> t
[16:04:50] <prospectacle> TK, if it's a sellers co-op, the sellers fees are just lower. See fonterra for good example of this.
[16:05:05] <MrBluze> crutchy: i'd abolish the modern company model
[16:05:07] <prospectacle> Fonterra controls 1/3 the worlds dairy, despite being a nz co-op, which is a country with only 2 million people.
[16:05:25] <crutchy> mrbluze: i work for a private company, but i don't develop software in my own time (unpaid) for the benefit of my employer... that would be stupid. i do it for my own benefit
[16:05:38] <crutchy> there are benefits to working hard other than financial
[16:06:05] <MrBluze> crutchy: by virtue of working for that company, you ought to be part owner of it, and get a dividend of its profits every year above your wages
[16:06:20] <MrBluze> which in the beginning can go towards buying into the company, then come out as a dividend
[16:06:30] <crutchy> but i'm happy to work the way i do because i'm compensated for the time i work
[16:06:43] <MrBluze> crutchy: distributism = you still get paid your wages
[16:07:08] <crutchy> but i have to buy in to the company?
[16:07:24] <MrBluze> yeah, by working for it you join it
[16:07:37] <MrBluze> you tie your fate to its success in part
[16:07:41] <crutchy> i think its a little more complicated than that
[16:08:01] <MrBluze> if you leave, you cash out your share
[16:08:11] <crutchy> companies have a set value... that value doesn't just arbitrarily increase if you get more employees
[16:08:25] <MrBluze> yep
[16:08:32] <crutchy> nope
[16:08:36] <MrBluze> and your proportion of that value might be nothing if the company is insolvent
[16:08:43] <prospectacle> crutchy, it does if the work those employees do adds value to the company.
[16:08:43] <MrBluze> too bad too sad
[16:08:53] <crutchy> but markets decide that
[16:09:01] <crutchy> customers
[16:09:07] <MrBluze> yeah, so
[16:09:10] <MrBluze> it's a company still
[16:09:31] <prospectacle> mrbluze may not be talking about increasing the dollar value of shares, but about the proportion owned by employees.
[16:09:37] <MrBluze> yep
[16:10:11] <MrBluze> if 100 people make a company that eventually is work $100 million dollars because it's damn efficient and they worked out a way of not needing more employees, each has a share of $1 million
[16:10:12] <crutchy> if company A has 1000 employees and sells a product but company B comes along and only has 500 employees but sells a better product (attracting more customers), which do you think is more valuable? company A or B
[16:10:14] <prospectacle> Crutchy, imagine you start a company, you own 100% of it and you hire someone. They work for you for years and the company makes lots of money, and under MrBluze system, after 10 years they own 1/3 the company (or whatever), because their work contributed ot it, over and above their wages.
[16:10:52] <MrBluze> crutchy: so company A fails, company B succeeds - end of story
[16:10:54] <crutchy> that could happen i guess
[16:11:19] <MrBluze> that's right, prospectacle
[16:11:25] <crutchy> or company A lays off 500 employees, gets the same machinery as company B uses and improves their productivity
[16:11:35] <MrBluze> crutchy: yes
[16:11:40] <MrBluze> but to lay them off it pays them their share
[16:11:45] <MrBluze> and that's it
[16:11:52] <crutchy> they don't need to
[16:11:54] <crutchy> today
[16:11:56] <MrBluze> so early on you can't claim super duper rights
[16:12:07] <MrBluze> you put in and get what u put in
[16:12:18] <crutchy> ^capitalism
[16:12:29] <prospectacle> MrBluze, I think it's good if it's gradual. There's a max % an employee can own (ie.e 100% divided by # employees) and it takes them X years to get there.
[16:12:38] <MrBluze> prospectacle: equal shares
[16:12:45] <MrBluze> BUT
[16:12:47] <MrBluze> it takes time to buy in
[16:12:48] <prospectacle> MrBluze, so everyone who has worked at the company for X years has max% of ownership
[16:12:53] <MrBluze> because u have to sacrifice your wages
[16:12:53] <crutchy> if you invest in a company you are entitled to share in its success
[16:13:00] <prospectacle> MrBluze, after long enough, everyone owns and equal share.
[16:13:02] <crutchy> and lose if it fails
[16:13:03] <MrBluze> yes
[16:13:21] <prospectacle> MrBluze, if a new employee comes on, shares are diluted proportionally over time, on the assumption the new employee adds value to the company through their work.
[16:13:27] <MrBluze> if you join a company with 100 employees worth $100 million, it will take a long time before you have a 1% share
[16:13:31] <prospectacle> MrBluze, that's how I've envisioned it anyway. I think we have very similar ideas.
[16:13:49] <MrBluze> because u sacrifice your dividend into the buy-in
[16:14:00] <MrBluze> but the other 100 get paid the dividend
[16:14:03] <crutchy> mrbluze: you can already do that
[16:14:09] <MrBluze> crutchy: yes, u can
[16:14:10] <prospectacle> MrBluze. I think it should be time-based, so it's predictable. No matter where you start, fi you work there for 10 years (say) you own as much as anyone, no matter when yous started.
[16:14:19] <MrBluze> but i would make it the blanket rule
[16:14:26] <crutchy> force = bad
[16:14:30] <prospectacle> MrBluze, in the meantime, the longer-term employees have already earned more dividends by being there longer.
[16:14:42] <MrBluze> prospectacle: perhaps time based, but not necessarily
[16:15:06] <prospectacle> MrBluze, I concede there may be another way to do it, but I have trouble imagining how the maths would work.
[16:15:11] <crutchy> those with the power to force others can (and will) sell that power... it is the source of corruption
[16:15:14] <prospectacle> crutchy, without some level of economic force, people starve.
[16:15:27] <MrBluze> crutchy: it's about a level playing field
[16:15:36] <MrBluze> it means, packer can't buy soylentnews
[16:15:45] <crutchy> a level playing field is everyone treated the same... no one has the power to force
[16:16:01] <TK> In the example above, isn't it just a tiny bit inconvenient to pay 500 employes roughly 50% of the value of your company? That's like to bankrupt the company, especially in a market where they aren't competitive
[16:16:03] <MrBluze> it's setting rules for how companies can run
[16:16:13] <prospectacle> crutchy, when someone is starving and desperate and you've got money, you don't need a gun to force them to do something.
[16:16:29] <MrBluze> TK: depends
[16:16:31] <crutchy> but they won't do something for nothing
[16:16:32] <prospectacle> TK, they earn it gradually over time, so if they're not adding enough value to the company, get rid of them.
[16:16:38] <MrBluze> TK: the company wouldnt vote for it if it was inconvenient
[16:16:40] <prospectacle> TK, if they're worth keeping, they're worth equity.
[16:17:02] <MrBluze> .. if the company made no profits, it folds
[16:17:07] <MrBluze> and the creditors are the employees
[16:17:18] <crutchy> companies already pay to keep good employees... its called a salary :-P
[16:17:25] <MrBluze> they can reform, if they wish
[16:17:27] <prospectacle> crutchy, no, not for nothing, but there's a long way between nothing and not-desperate.
[16:17:54] <MrBluze> crutchy: but if you work for a ridiculously profitable company like Apple, you get paid more than a slave in a foxconn factory
[16:18:01] <prospectacle> crutchy, if people aren't forced, you could pay some people just-above-starving wages to work for you, and they would have to take it unless unemployment was 0%.
[16:18:17] <crutchy> why did apple become rediculously profitable?
[16:18:22] <MrBluze> crutchy: tax fraud
[16:18:35] <MrBluze> and slavery
[16:18:38] <crutchy> mrbluze: how?
[16:18:44] <MrBluze> front companies
[16:18:55] <MrBluze> they book their profits in tax havens
[16:18:58] <crutchy> paying taxes to overseas governments
[16:19:02] <crutchy> with lower rates
[16:19:16] <MrBluze> yeah by abstracted ownership
[16:19:18] <crutchy> but doesn't that just mean there's more money to pay investors?
[16:19:19] <MrBluze> which is impossible in distributism
[16:19:36] <MrBluze> crutchy: it means they dont pay any tax in australia
[16:19:37] <crutchy> profit = motive
[16:19:40] <MrBluze> practically
[16:19:52] <MrBluze> and they dont pay any wages in china, practically
[16:19:57] <crutchy> without profit, what would be the motive to work at all?
[16:20:06] <MrBluze> crutchy: hunger
[16:20:16] <crutchy> food requires profit
[16:20:21] <prospectacle> MrBluze I often think the system of giving employees equity over time (that they can't sell or take with them) would be more profitable for the initial investors too, due to employee motivation.
[16:20:25] <crutchy> unless you are self-sustainable
[16:20:36] <crutchy> which rules out most
[16:20:49] <prospectacle> MrBluze, if one of us could prove this in practice one day, you wouldn't need to change laws for it to catch on.
[16:21:00] <crutchy> employees are motivated by their own profitability
[16:21:09] <MrBluze> prospectacle: ud need body guards to prevent assasination though
[16:21:26] <MrBluze> crutchy: u know that doesnt actually work in practice
[16:21:35] <MrBluze> not by and large
[16:21:38] <prospectacle> crutchy, would you, in theory, be happy with a system where a large proportion of people worked to just barely avoid starving, and no more than that?
[16:21:40] <crutchy> how does it work then?
[16:21:51] <MrBluze> crutchy: employees are lied to
[16:21:55] <prospectacle> I mean hypothetically, if that's how it turned out.
[16:22:00] <MrBluze> they think they are worthless so they ask for very little
[16:22:21] <prospectacle> god damn mouse keeps stealing the cheese and not setting off the trap
[16:22:21] <MrBluze> unions are set up and then there is a conflict between employer/employee
[16:22:25] <crutchy> if an employees self-worth is little, its pretty hard for anyone else to value them higher
[16:22:30] <prospectacle> that's not a polical metaphor, I'm just complaining
[16:22:45] <crutchy> prosp
[16:23:03] <crutchy> prospectacle: capitalism lifts people out of poverty
[16:23:05] <MrBluze> crutchy: it's about fraud
[16:23:21] <crutchy> capitalism isn't fraud
[16:23:25] <prospectacle> crutchy, some people
[16:23:37] <crutchy> it lifts more people than communism
[16:23:43] <MrBluze> the employees are always undercompensated
[16:23:57] <MrBluze> the employer wants to exploit them
[16:23:58] <crutchy> what is "undercompensated"?
[16:24:10] <crutchy> sounds subjective
[16:24:11] <MrBluze> that's the game
[16:24:12] <prospectacle> crutchy, there's more to the world than communism and capitalism. The question was if a large proportion of people worked for just-barely-living wages, would you support such a system?
[16:24:15] <MrBluze> it's not
[16:24:28] <MrBluze> employer is profit driven = rip off the customer, rip off the employee = profit
[16:24:38] <MrBluze> this is inefficient
[16:24:38] <Blackmoore> Soviet are communism didnt work - because it was corrupted from the get go.
[16:24:56] <MrBluze> employer = get away with whatever u possibly can
[16:25:00] <prospectacle> I mean whether it was communism or capitalism. If people were close to starving, but not as close as they would be without a job, would you say that's a fair wage?
[16:25:17] <crutchy> what is a "fair" wage?
[16:25:27] <Blackmoore> they went from feudalism to well state controlled (feudal) industrialism
[16:25:28] <MrBluze> distributism = your fate is tied to your company's success = pay yourself enough but not too much otherwise you jeopardize your own future
[16:25:39] <prospectacle> crutchy, that's what I'm asking. Can it be fair, if it lift someone from starving to almost-starving?
[16:25:48] <prospectacle> crutchy, would you consider it fair, by your own standards?
[16:25:52] <crutchy> mrbluze: what if the company you work for fails on a part of actions you had no control over?
[16:25:58] <Blackmoore> starving or near-starving people are dangerous
[16:26:02] <MrBluze> crutchy: one employee = one vote
[16:26:11] <crutchy> capitalism can be fair. it has proven to succeed
[16:26:11] <MrBluze> everyone has some control
[16:26:19] <crutchy> mrbluze: no
[16:26:21] <Blackmoore> those are most likely to resort to violence
[16:26:23] <crutchy> directors have control
[16:26:39] <MrBluze> crutchy: in distributism, directors are elected by employees, wages are set by employees
[16:26:52] <MrBluze> they are mini democracies
[16:27:00] <MrBluze> mini nations even
[16:27:14] <crutchy> directors may be voted by employees, but in that case employee are similar to shareholders... they can't control what the directors do after the vote
[16:27:17] <Blackmoore> see if i was to set up a business - I'd set up a employee held cooperative.
[16:27:24] <prospectacle> crutchy, that's not what I'm asking. If two people were negotiating, and they agree to terms where one fo the people ( who was close to starving) would work for just enough to keep them alive for a few more months while they did the work. Would that be a fair or just contract?
[16:27:30] <MrBluze> crutchy: this is true
[16:27:35] <Blackmoore> so even if you OFFER stock. it would be a non voting share
[16:27:52] <crutchy> prospectacle: it depends
[16:27:57] <prospectacle> crutchy, on what?
[16:28:01] <MrBluze> Blackmoore: in that case stock is not stock, but debt
[16:28:04] <crutchy> what is being contracted
[16:28:15] <MrBluze> with no fixed interest
[16:28:16] <prospectacle> crutchy, labour, for wages.
[16:28:23] <crutchy> to do what?
[16:28:28] <Blackmoore> MrBluze++
[16:28:28] <deadbeef> karma - mrbluze: 19
[16:28:33] <prospectacle> crutchy, dig a ditch
[16:28:36] <prospectacle> what does it matter?
[16:28:44] <prospectacle> anyway, let's say it's to dig a ditch
[16:28:45] <prospectacle> for example
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[16:29:00] <crutchy> what's the availability of laborers that dig ditches?
[16:29:22] <Blackmoore> not nearly as many as availbale in 1920.
[16:29:25] <prospectacle> crutchy, very high availability. lots of other starving people are willing to take the job if this guy turns it down.
[16:29:50] <crutchy> so if i give this guy anything, he's going to be better off than all the other laborers that can do the same
[16:29:50] <Blackmoore> eh - not so fast there prospectacle
[16:30:05] <mattie_p> hey crutchy, MrBluze, prospectacle, Blackmoore. what is shaking?
[16:30:14] <MrBluze> if a company needed to employ 20 people to dig ditches for 6 months, they would employ them for the appropriate wage, set up a share of the company and voting rights until end of contract, and pay them out at the end in the proportionate amount
[16:30:19] <prospectacle> crutchy, that's right.
[16:30:27] <Blackmoore> there are tons of jobs in the us, like ditch digging and farm harvesting that AMericans will not do.
[16:30:31] <prospectacle> hi mattie_p
[16:30:41] <Blackmoore> Morning mattie_p
[16:30:51] <crutchy> so beggers can't be choosers
[16:30:57] <prospectacle> crutchy, so should that company be allowed to pay the minimum possible price, so this employee has just enough food to survive long enough to do the job?
[16:30:58] <MrBluze> Blackmoore: they would if they knew that by ditch digging for years and years they get a share in the farm
[16:31:17] <crutchy> if he's betterof than all his mates, then yeah
[16:31:18] <prospectacle> crutchy, and should the rest be allowed (by the government) to starve?
[16:31:33] <crutchy> no they should lower their expectations and find jobs too
[16:31:34] <Blackmoore> that is why we have an illegal immmigrent problem - job that pay bad (but better than mexico) and really hard work
[16:31:36] <MrBluze> prospectacle: the government should let them starev
[16:31:45] <MrBluze> the government should have no part in managing the welfare of anyone
[16:31:47] <prospectacle> crutchy, what if unemployment is very high?
[16:31:57] <crutchy> then prices will fall
[16:32:06] <mattie_p> oh, looks like we're debating economic theory
[16:32:08] <MrBluze> i'm with crutchy on that one
[16:32:13] <crutchy> yup :-P
[16:32:13] <Blackmoore> MrBluze: no, they go and work the counter at Mcdonalds
[16:32:23] <MrBluze> Blackmoore: then they get to own the macdonalds
[16:32:28] <MrBluze> in distributism
[16:32:30] <prospectacle> crutchy, and what if prices fall and many people still can't afford food?
[16:32:40] <crutchy> then they lower their expectations furhter
[16:32:41] <MrBluze> i'd rather own the farm
[16:32:52] <crutchy> beggers can't be choosers
[16:32:56] <MrBluze> prospectacle: then u have starvation
[16:33:01] <MrBluze> and u rely on charity
[16:33:03] <MrBluze> like u do now
[16:33:04] <Blackmoore> MrBluze: have you ever worked a farm?
[16:33:07] <MrBluze> food stamps are evil
[16:33:10] <prospectacle> crutchy, they're not turning any jobs down. Not any at all. And they still can't afford food.
[16:33:11] <crutchy> even people living on the street find food
[16:33:14] <MrBluze> Blackmoore: yeah freakin hard work
[16:33:22] <Blackmoore> yes it is.
[16:33:23] <crutchy> if they have a job they will be paid something
[16:33:25] <prospectacle> crutchy, so they lower their expectations to eating garbage?
[16:33:34] <crutchy> if things are that bad, yes
[16:33:35] <prospectacle> crutchy, but they dont' have a job.
[16:33:45] <prospectacle> crutchy, there's the difference
[16:33:48] <crutchy> if they don't have a job, they need to lower their expectations
[16:33:59] <crutchy> there are jobs
[16:34:02] <prospectacle> crutchy, they're not turning down any jobs so their expectations can'[t be any lower
[16:34:17] <crutchy> they might not be turning down any, but are they accepting any?
[16:34:32] <MrBluze> distributism: in case of food shortages, communities have set up their charities which buffer the problem - usually the better off cooperatives organize it
[16:34:34] <prospectacle> crutchy, they're not able to find any at all.
[16:34:35] <prospectacle> crutchy so they're reduced to eating garbage.
[16:34:49] <crutchy> there are jobs for those that want them
[16:35:05] <prospectacle> crutchy, that's not always true.
[16:35:05] <MrBluze> crutchy: problem in US is people are getting no more for working than they do for not working
[16:35:10] <prospectacle> crutchy, jobs aren't infinite
[16:35:12] <crutchy> the problem is that people feel entitled to a lifestyle that may be above their means
[16:35:14] <MrBluze> that's stupid socialism ruining everything again
[16:35:25] <MrBluze> and capitalism forcing wages down to below reasonable
[16:35:35] <prospectacle> crutchy, that's not the only reason for unemployment. Jobs aren't infinite.
[16:35:36] <MrBluze> 'cause it's all being milked off by the fat cats
[16:35:53] <prospectacle> crutchy, most people would rather some level of taxation, to tolerating large numbers of people eating garbage and almost starving.
[16:35:53] <MrBluze> .. who have done dirty deals with china on behalf of US citizens
[16:36:04] <crutchy> if most people didn't make enough money to buy stuff, then nobody would buy stuff... so companies would be forced to lower prices to something they could afford, just to stay in business
[16:36:28] <MrBluze> i gtg sleep
[16:36:31] <MrBluze> gnite ppl :)
[16:36:39] <prospectacle> crutchy, you just jumped from "most people" to "nobody". Companies could sell to a minority and stay in business. Plenty already do.
[16:36:51] <crutchy> night mrbluze. great chat. i love this stuff, though i'm not all up on it
[16:36:57] <MrBluze> :) all good
[16:36:59] <prospectacle> Crutchy, prices don't automatically fall to where everyone can afford something. Whatever the product.
[16:37:01] <prospectacle> night mrbluze
[16:37:02] <MrBluze> we can catch up on it later
[16:37:05] <MrBluze> cheers prospectacle
[16:37:11] <crutchy> walmart isn't in the business of selling to a minority
[16:37:13] <MrBluze> i reckon i can convince u round crutchy heh heh heh ;)
[16:37:14] <MrBluze> cheers
[16:37:26] <crutchy> maybe
[16:37:29] <crutchy> :-)
[16:37:41] <prospectacle> crutchy, even america has a minimum wage. If they didn't there would be plenty who couldn't afford even walmart.
[16:37:52] <crutchy> the minimum wage in america is killing jobs
[16:37:53] <prospectacle> crutchy, supply/demand doesn't mean everyone can afford something.
[16:38:04] <prospectacle> crutchy, it just means some people can afford it
[16:38:09] <crutchy> not everyone should be able to afford everything
[16:38:12] <MrBluze> lastly: distributism = you get rich on your OWN merits - not those of some far flung company you placed a lucky bet on and got 100:1
[16:38:18] <prospectacle> crutchy, right, but everyone should be able to afford food.
[16:38:26] <crutchy> mrbluze: that's capitalsim too
[16:38:30] <prospectacle> or do we just let people starve when they can't afford food?
[16:38:38] <MrBluze> crutchy: not with stock markets
[16:38:39] <crutchy> we already let people starve
[16:38:55] <crutchy> there are plenty of homeless people that even the government ignores
[16:39:17] <MrBluze> prospectacle: we are responsible for ourselves and our families - we are obliged to give to the poor - but the government doesnt owe anyone anything
[16:39:20] <prospectacle> crutchy, they're entitled to benefits, though the sytem is certainly not executed perfectly.
[16:39:21] <Blackmoore> and we already saddle people with tons of debt; basically making them indentured servents to the bank.
[16:39:40] <crutchy> they're entitled to get off their arses and find a job, any job
[16:39:45] <crutchy> any pay
[16:39:53] <crutchy> any pay is better than no pay
[16:39:59] <prospectacle> MrBluze, a lot more people will slip through the cracks, though if the govt does nothing.
[16:40:03] <MrBluze> crutchy++
[16:40:03] <deadbeef> karma - crutchy: 56
[16:40:20] <MrBluze> prospectacle: i swear the government is the reason why in my area 2/3 of peole DONT WORK
[16:40:21] <Blackmoore> "any" job (say at minimim wage) wont allow you to house yourself AND pay back that student debt.
[16:40:21] <prospectacle> crutchy, yes, but pay is not always available. No matter how much people lower their standards
[16:40:31] <MrBluze> they don't do A THING
[16:40:55] <MrBluze> unemployment figures are FAKE
[16:40:56] <crutchy> minimum wage prices poor people out of the labor markets, because somepeople just aren't worth paying minimum wage for
[16:40:58] <prospectacle> MrBluze, incentives do need to be organised well or will backfire. MrBluze, but who can catch the people who slip through the cracks more effectively than government, en masse?
[16:41:28] <prospectacle> crutchy, in a purely capitalist system, some people aren't worth paying anything (by market conditions).
[16:41:29] <MrBluze> prospectacle: hunger will drive them to get an education and learn to do something useful instead of hang around the supermarket, chew gum
[16:41:40] <prospectacle> mrbluze, some of them, what about the rest?
[16:41:43] <Landon> get an education? with what help
[16:41:50] <MrBluze> the rest will end up in prison working for their sins
[16:41:53] <crutchy> if someone offered to pick fruit, they would be worth something (buit may be less than minimum wage)
[16:42:09] <prospectacle> crutchy, prison built and prisoners fed by whom/
[16:42:10] <MrBluze> Landon: communities that care enough will set up a school system
[16:42:14] <crutchy> nobody's labor is worth nothing, not even to a greedy capitalist
[16:42:18] <prospectacle> crutchy, not if there are already enough fruit pickers.
[16:42:23] <Landon> would be nice to live in one of those communities I guess
[16:42:26] <crutchy> there aren't
[16:42:34] <Blackmoore> crutchy: I think the people who harvest food ought to get $15-20 an hour
[16:42:36] <crutchy> why do you think so many illegal immigrants are working?
[16:42:50] <Blackmoore> it damn hard work, and without them we all stave
[16:42:53] <MrBluze> Landon: currently with mother-government running everything, nobody gives a darn about anything
[16:43:10] <prospectacle> crutchy, not now, but any market can be saturated. There isn't a fruit picking job for everyone.
[16:43:10] <MrBluze> its poison
[16:43:17] <Landon> what makes you think it will change with govt not helping?
[16:43:24] <crutchy> there are plenty of jobs for those that want to work
[16:43:40] <crutchy> the only question is what they are willing to work for in exchange
[16:43:42] <MrBluze> Landon: because where the government doesnt help, people are damn well more motivated to feed themselves
[16:43:50] <MrBluze> ok i gtg to bed
[16:43:53] <MrBluze> argh!
[16:43:54] <prospectacle> crutchy, that's not always the case. Right not unemployment is low.
[16:43:56] <MrBluze> see u all
[16:43:57] <crutchy> lol night mrbluze
[16:44:02] <prospectacle> see you
[16:44:09] <crutchy> unemployment is low?
[16:44:20] <Landon> not all jobs are ideal with stable hours "work all day", etc
[16:44:21] <prospectacle> crutchy, yes, by historical standards, very low. extremely low
[16:44:40] <crutchy> i dunno about that
[16:44:45] <crutchy> there are lots without jobs
[16:44:49] <Landon> for example, I have a friend that's a waiter at a restaurant, he barely gets scheduled enough hours to get by, but he's effectively on call or he's going to lose his job
[16:44:54] <prospectacle> in history (And in some countries), it's 50%. Not welfare states either. In some poor countries with poor govt protection unemployment is high.
[16:45:26] <crutchy> government protection costs money
[16:45:31] <crutchy> and who pays?
[16:45:32] <prospectacle> crutchy, it's about 6%. In some countres it's 60.
[16:45:52] <prospectacle> crutchy, everyone pays, to avoid people living on streets and eating garbage.
[16:46:00] <crutchy> the countries with the highest unemployement have least capitalism
[16:46:03] <prospectacle> crutchy to avoid large numbers of desperate, starving, angry people
[16:46:22] <crutchy> governments don't care about starving homeless people though
[16:46:43] <prospectacle> actually governments spend heaps of money feeding and housing people.
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[16:46:57] <prospectacle> Whether they care or not is immaterial. What matters is that they're not on the streets eating garbage and robbing poeple.
[16:47:00] <crutchy> they waste heaps of money supporting their bureaucracies
[16:47:16] <crutchy> but there are people on the streets
[16:47:28] <janrinok> hi guys
[16:47:31] <Blackmoore> go to bed MrBluze -- we'll still be arguing this when you get back
[16:47:32] <crutchy> because they don't want to or don't know how to get a job
[16:47:32] <prospectacle> every large organisation does that, public or private
[16:47:40] <crutchy> lol yeah prolly :-P
[16:47:45] <prospectacle> crutchy, yes, there are poeple on the streets. A tiny number compared to most countries.
[16:47:56] <prospectacle> lol @ blackmoore
[16:48:00] <crutchy> cos we have lots of capitalism
[16:48:00] <Blackmoore> and a ton of people in lockup.
[16:48:10] <crutchy> countries with lots of poor have least capitalism
[16:48:15] <prospectacle> crutchy, and lots of regulation and taxation.
[16:48:41] <crutchy> in australia we pay a lot of tax, but we have relatively high wages to support that
[16:48:45] <prospectacle> Some of the highest taxing countries have some of the lowest poverty.
[16:48:50] <crutchy> yes
[16:48:55] <Blackmoore> yep
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[16:48:58] <crutchy> but high wages are need to pay high taxes
[16:49:02] <prospectacle> and by highest taxing I mean proportionately.
[16:49:05] <Blackmoore> we have got to stop vilifying taxes.
[16:49:20] <prospectacle> in my view it's worth taxing some people to prevent starvation, desperation, destitution, etc.
[16:49:22] <crutchy> taxes only help support wasteful bureaucracies
[16:49:38] <Blackmoore> taxes - yes it is redistribution of wealth - but if you put it back into infrastucture we all benifit
[16:49:39] <crutchy> then the incentive to work would reduce
[16:49:40] <prospectacle> crutchy, yes, we need both high wages and high taxes to have a good support system for the most vulnerable.
[16:49:41] <Landon> Blackmoore: I agree, but that means getting people to live even more reasonable lifestyles
[16:49:54] <crutchy> high tax = less incentive to pay tax
[16:50:06] <Blackmoore> nonsense crutchy
[16:50:25] <crutchy> why do you think tax havens are doing so well?
[16:50:26] <Blackmoore> the rich under FDR had to pay damn near 90% taxes
[16:50:27] <Landon> I'll pay as much tax as I need as long as I'm guaranteed living as I am now :)
[16:50:31] <prospectacle> crutchy, not if wages are also higher. taxes pay for things that allow the economy to flourish: roads, mail, the rule of law.
[16:50:34] <Blackmoore> and the only got richer
[16:50:48] <crutchy> if you try to tax someone too much, they will do what they can to reduce it
[16:50:49] <LaminatorX> Yeah, the last few decades of low taxes have shown those theories to be false, crutchy.
[16:50:49] <prospectacle> countries with small or weak governments tend to have bad economies.
[16:51:20] <crutchy> that's why jobs go offshore, apple/google/etc paying taxes in ireland
[16:51:36] <prospectacle> crutchy, no one is denying that too much tax will be a disincentive, but "too much" is not "some", often it's not even "a lot" if the taxes are spent in a way to make the economy stronger.
[16:51:50] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Earth-Sized Exoplanet Found in Habitable Zone - http://sylnt.us - where-to-send-marketing
[16:51:53] <Blackmoore> FDR proved that if you put the taxes out of the rich, and back into the economy (and infrstucture) everyone benefits
[16:51:59] <crutchy> some tax is ok
[16:52:06] <crutchy> i'm happy to pay my fair share
[16:52:13] <prospectacle> crutchy, what's the "Fair share"?
[16:52:49] <prospectacle> crutchy, china, with low wages, exports more than anyone else in the world. Can you guess who's second?
[16:52:49] <Blackmoore> :) see that's why i LIKE the US progressive tax system.. or at least the one we used to have under Clinton
[16:52:50] <crutchy> if it starts looking like i'm going to be better off not working (cos i'll get more money off the government) then i'll quit my job
[16:53:29] <crutchy> i don't work for the benefit of others
[16:53:48] <prospectacle> crutchy, so if you were earning well, your taxes could be sky high, as long as you're better off than not working?
[16:54:06] <crutchy> i already pay a shitload of taxes, so yeah it must be worth it
[16:54:43] <prospectacle> right, so if the govenrment can use those taxes to create a legal and infrastructure environment that allows lots of high wage jobs, then you'll be better off paying high taxes
[16:55:08] <crutchy> i don't care about other high wage jobs... only my own
[16:55:24] <crutchy> but yeah the government will spend my taxes on whatever it likes
[16:55:27] <crutchy> can't change that
[16:55:28] <prospectacle> fine, but if the govt doesn't keep law and order, doesn't build and maintain roads, etc. how long with your (or anyone else's) job last?
[16:55:42] <prospectacle> s/with/will/
[16:55:42] <SedBot> <prospectacle> fine, but if the govt doesn't keep law and order, doesn't build and maintain roads, etc. how long will your (or anyone else's) job last?
[16:55:54] <crutchy> my taxes are only part of that
[16:56:02] <crutchy> my rates look after local roads
[16:56:09] <crutchy> they're fucking expensive too
[16:56:11] <crutchy> :-P
[16:56:22] <prospectacle> yes, but they are things the govt. does with your taxes that allow your job to exist and be viable.
[16:56:32] <crutchy> yeah government has a role
[16:56:37] <prospectacle> in other words, government creating (the conditions for) wealth.
[16:56:42] <crutchy> no
[16:56:55] <crutchy> anyone can build a road
[16:56:57] <prospectacle> no?
[16:57:02] <crutchy> look at citylink
[16:57:14] <crutchy> the government didn't entirely finance that
[16:57:40] <prospectacle> government doesn't build every road. true. How many roads (compared to today) would exist if only private roads existed?
[16:57:50] <crutchy> governments can do these things, but they tend to do it poorly
[16:57:55] <crutchy> and inefficiently
[16:58:01] <Blackmoore> crutchy: have you evr built a road?
[16:58:04] <prospectacle> have you ever heard of a private nation-wide road network
[16:58:08] <prospectacle> in any country
[16:58:12] <prospectacle> in any time in history?
[16:58:13] <crutchy> nobody spends other people's money as wisely as they spend their own
[16:58:19] <crutchy> no i haven't built a road
[16:58:22] <Blackmoore> did you realize that ashpalt cost $1m US per MILE?
[16:58:33] <crutchy> only for the government
[16:58:49] <Blackmoore> true- it would cost you ot i twice that
[16:58:55] <crutchy> a private company wouldn't spend that much
[16:58:57] <crutchy> no
[16:59:00] <Blackmoore> BS.
[16:59:05] <crutchy> governments are very wasteful
[16:59:52] <Landon> I don't think that can be extended to say every aspect is very wasteful
[16:59:58] <Blackmoore> yes. they are. but you find the waste in the shadow departments. the spooks and the military are stupid wasteful since they have to hide activities
[17:00:25] <crutchy> what government department isn't wasteful? name one
[17:00:37] <Blackmoore> local spending? eh not so much sometimes a contractor or reletive gets a good deal - but usually it's pretty fair
[17:00:48] <crutchy> local spending is a rort
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[17:01:19] <Blackmoore> State level? ok now you have some graft, and some shenanagens to lock in contracts
[17:01:26] <crutchy> a lot of stories on A Current Affair (in Australia anyway) are about corruption in councils
[17:01:29] <LaminatorX> Parks service does a hell of a lot with limited resources.
[17:01:44] <crutchy> look at story lately about councillor in ballarat on a $300k salary
[17:01:58] <Blackmoore> you could probablly get a bit out of that. but the state isnt funding a military.. (unless you are the NYC police)
[17:02:29] <prospectacle> Whatever the cost. There would be far fewer paved roads without government. They would only be laid down where profitable in the short term, by people who could afford it.
[17:02:36] <crutchy> there can be corruption at any level of government, but waste doesn't mean (necessarily) corruption
[17:02:37] <prospectacle> paved roads allow business to be done
[17:02:39] <prospectacle> business makes people rich.
[17:02:47] <crutchy> it does
[17:03:00] <crutchy> and customers make them rich
[17:03:18] <crutchy> customers made apple what it is today
[17:03:19] <Blackmoore> Federal? some programs are really good at spending, (like on roads, bridges) others need some tweeking (how much of food stamps went to Monsanto?!?)
[17:03:25] <prospectacle> so does access to infrastructure.
[17:03:42] <crutchy> yes
[17:03:42] <prospectacle> imagine a courier business trying to start if govt hadn't built all those roads.
[17:03:45] <crutchy> paid for with taxes
[17:04:06] <crutchy> poor people don't pay taxes
[17:04:08] <prospectacle> right. taxes -> infrastructure + law and order -> better business conditions.
[17:04:21] <prospectacle> they pay gst
[17:04:22] <crutchy> only rich or working people pay taxes
[17:04:28] <crutchy> they do
[17:04:33] <crutchy> i actually like the gst
[17:04:37] <crutchy> its a fair tax
[17:04:48] <crutchy> if you spend, you pay
[17:04:51] <prospectacle> and with the conditions created using taxes (infrastructure and law and order), poor people are more likely to find a job.
[17:05:00] <prospectacle> and thereofre more likely to start paying taxes.
[17:05:06] <crutchy> if taxes were spend wisely i would agree
[17:05:26] <crutchy> nobody spends other peoples money as wisely as they spend their own
[17:05:28] <prospectacle> you'll never have all taxes spent wisely. That doesn't mean all taxes are spent unwisely.
[17:05:33] <LaminatorX> If you hold out for perfection, you'll wait forever.
[17:05:40] <crutchy> government is really good at wasting other peoples money
[17:05:50] <prospectacle> crutchy, but we can't all build our own roads, so we have to create organisations to do that.
[17:05:55] <prospectacle> crutchy, the govt. is owned by the people.
[17:06:02] <crutchy> i don't demand perfection, just freedom to choose the lesser of evils
[17:06:13] <crutchy> government doesn't have anything to own
[17:06:21] <crutchy> they can only give what they take
[17:06:25] <prospectacle> govt owns a great deal.
[17:06:30] <crutchy> no it doesn't
[17:06:32] <prospectacle> so much
[17:06:34] <prospectacle> wow
[17:06:38] <prospectacle> they own so much
[17:06:41] <crutchy> what does government own?
[17:06:44] <prospectacle> land, assets, funds, buildings
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[17:06:56] <prospectacle> an enourmous amount of stuff
[17:07:09] <crutchy> i'm pretty sure taxpayers are on the hook for those
[17:07:26] <prospectacle> yes we own the government, and they own a lot of things.
[17:07:32] <crutchy> no taxpayers do
[17:07:38] <crutchy> taxpayers pay
[17:07:46] <crutchy> so they own
[17:07:59] <crutchy> like shareholders
[17:08:02] <prospectacle> legally, organisations are entities which can own things.
[17:08:05] <prospectacle> yes, like shareholders
[17:08:14] <prospectacle> the shareholders own the company, but legally the company owns assets
[17:08:16] <crutchy> organisations can control things, not own them
[17:08:19] <prospectacle> as a separate entitly
[17:08:23] <prospectacle> legally they can
[17:08:40] <prospectacle> whether you think it's right or not is another matter, but ownership is a legal concept.
[17:08:44] <crutchy> there has to be someone held accountable
[17:08:57] <crutchy> someone to sue
[17:09:04] <prospectacle> organisations can be sued
[17:09:14] <crutchy> who pays?
[17:09:24] <LaminatorX> Better to attack corruption head-on. "Starve the beast." just gets us crumbling infrastructure and hungry children along with our corruption.
[17:09:28] <prospectacle> the organisation pays from the money it legally owns.
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[17:09:37] <crutchy> where does that money come from?
[17:09:59] <prospectacle> crutchy, a variety of places, like any person's money (not that they are people, but they can earn moeny in a variety of ways, just like people).
[17:10:22] <prospectacle> crutchy, sales, donations, interest. It depends on the type of organisation.
[17:10:44] <crutchy> yes
[17:10:49] <crutchy> could also be a charity
[17:10:55] <crutchy> but someone is still held accountable
[17:10:58] <crutchy> even in a charity
[17:11:04] <prospectacle> yes. could be.
[17:11:15] <prospectacle> legally, the organisation itself can be accountable.
[17:11:45] <crutchy> liability doesn't stop altogether just because you're a shareholder... i'm sure ncommander is battling this atm
[17:11:56] <crutchy> nfp doesn't mean no liability
[17:11:57] <prospectacle> where the money comes from is a separate issue. It varies. Who owns it is a separate issue, it varies (some organisations don't have owners)
[17:12:06] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Snowden Gets Putin to Re-enact Clapper's Lie - http://sylnt.us - now-ask-him-about-statistics
[17:12:18] <prospectacle> no it means the liability is held by the organisation, not the person running it.
[17:12:26] <crutchy> the government doesn't own anything
[17:12:33] <crutchy> the government isn't a charity or a NFP
[17:12:39] <prospectacle> legally it does own a great deal.
[17:12:41] <crutchy> it has shareholders
[17:12:45] <crutchy> they own everything
[17:12:58] <crutchy> are are liable for debt incurred
[17:13:12] <crutchy> just like a shareholder
[17:13:30] <prospectacle> shareholders aren't liable for debts incurred, int he same way a person is liable for their own debts, that's thep oint.
[17:13:36] <prospectacle> that's the point of limited liabilty.
[17:13:53] <crutchy> if a company goes bust, shareholders lose
[17:14:26] <prospectacle> yeah, but only the value of the shares, they can't be sued personally. The company which they own may cease to be worth anything, but they aren't personally liable for any debt the company itself can't pay.
[17:14:30] <prospectacle> there's a separation.
[17:14:41] <prospectacle> Whereas if the individual shareholder were sued, they could lose everything they own.
[17:15:13] <prospectacle> because it's the company that has the debt, or its the company that's sued. not the shareholders
[17:16:43] <crutchy> if a company gets sued, where do you think the money comes from?
[17:16:46] <prospectacle> Anyway, It's been a fun and interesting discussion. I should probably head off to bed. I'm sure we'll have plenty more opportunities to argue about these things and i look forward to it.
[17:16:53] <crutchy> yeah me too
[17:17:02] <crutchy> very intellectual :-)
[17:17:29] <prospectacle> if a company gets sued, the shareholders aren't asked for any extra money. I'm not saying it should be liek that, but it is.
[17:17:52] <crutchy> they lose their dividends for a while though
[17:18:19] <prospectacle> right, but that's not taking actual money, that's just taking potential money they may or may not have got.
[17:18:24] <crutchy> getting sued = less profit
[17:18:24] <Landon> are we back to LLCs?
[17:18:36] <crutchy> dunno
[17:18:41] <crutchy> i'm wrecked
[17:18:47] <crutchy> it's after 1am
[17:18:48] <Landon> don't mess with infinite recursion!
[17:19:20] <crutchy> i'm sure there's pros and cos of everything
[17:19:28] <prospectacle> yeah, I'm sure this will come up again many times. It's always a fun topic.
[17:19:38] <prospectacle> Have a good one crutchy. I'll catch you later.
[17:19:50] <LaminatorX> Most shareholders aen't collecting dividends anyway. they're playing for growth. that's part of what's messed up about Wall Street, speculation and cheating have higher returns than a share of the profits in most cases.
[17:19:57] <prospectacle> You too landon, are you just starting a weekend or in the middle of it?
[17:19:57] <crutchy> cya prospectacle. thanks for a great chat. have a good night matey
[17:20:21] <prospectacle> LaminatorX, good point.
[17:20:34] <prospectacle> ok catch you all later
[17:20:36] <crutchy> laminator: true
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[17:21:29] <Landon> I'll be starting a weekend later today
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[17:39:15] <Blackmoore> moo
[17:40:25] <Woods> Bacon must be taking a nap.
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[17:41:34] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v Bytram|away] by juggler
[17:41:53] <crutchy> lol its back in #test :-P
[17:42:21] <crutchy> oh no its here
[17:42:24] <crutchy> hmm
[17:42:26] <crutchy> moo
[17:42:26] <bacon> (__)
[17:42:26] <bacon> (oo)
[17:42:26] <bacon> /------\/
[17:42:26] <bacon> / | ||
[17:42:26] <bacon> * /\---/\
[17:42:26] <bacon> ~~ ~~
[17:42:27] <bacon> ...."Have you mooed today?"...
[17:42:30] <crutchy> lol
[17:42:35] <crutchy> maybe it was taking a nap :-P
[17:44:00] <crutchy> seems to be doing that sometimes
[17:44:22] -!- Bytram|afk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[17:44:30] <crutchy> must be a bug wriggling around in there somewhere
[17:46:31] -!- crutchy has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
[17:46:43] -!- bacon has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[17:50:28] <TK> moo
[17:50:33] <TK> :(
[17:50:35] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Google Escapes East Texas Court - http://sylnt.us - Chessboard-of-the-Gods
[17:54:18] <dentonj> moo
[17:55:34] <Woods> He got tired of it I guess. The bots are standing up against the tyranny of moo commands!
[17:56:01] <TK> woods++
[17:56:01] <deadbeef> karma - woods: 1
[17:56:24] <TK> deadbeef, the reason moo doesn't work
[17:56:36] <TK> damn robots
[17:57:36] <Woods> I honestly have a hard time understanding why the bot named Bacon responds to mooing, but not the bot named Deadbeef.
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[17:58:49] <Cyprus> it's hard to moo when the beef is dead
[17:59:00] <LaminatorX> Seeing "moo" on a screen like this makes me think, "MUD: Object Oriented."
[17:59:57] <Blackmoore> LaminatorX: oh god. it's MUD - the programming language
[18:00:19] <Blackmoore> *dies a ltttle more inside*
[18:00:59] <Woods> "You see here an open IF statement"
[18:01:04] <LaminatorX> I played on DuneMUSH and GarouMUSH quite a bit back in the day. I never really got into MUDs though.
[18:01:36] <Blackmoore> "type new class type"
[18:01:42] <LaminatorX> A friend of mine was active on LamdaMOO for years.
[18:01:52] <Woods> NetHack was my poison for a bit.
[18:02:04] <Blackmoore> "you have written a recursive function. do you want to activate it?"
[18:04:51] LaminatorX is now known as LaminatorX|afk
[18:05:05] <Woods> "You have gained a level! IT has allocated 1GB of RAM to your resources"
[18:10:33] <Woods> "The Intern uses poor practice on you! All comments have been erased!"
[18:15:36] <Blackmoore> "data corruption. you have lost 1Gb of previously written code"
[18:15:52] <Blackmoore> use backup
[18:16:10] <Blackmoore> "backup failed. hardware failure"
[18:16:29] <Blackmoore> pour coffee into server
[18:16:41] <Blackmoore> "your server surges with power"
[18:16:56] <Blackmoore> "it recompiles yor code, and impoves functionality"
[18:17:07] <Blackmoore> "server has gained sentience"
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[18:23:12] <Woods> lol. I like the progression there.
[18:26:45] <Blackmoore> cripes. i kinda MISS trying to write thos for the BBS
[18:27:42] <Blackmoore> kinda.
[18:28:05] <Blackmoore> really didnt like handling the parseing.
[18:29:01] <Blackmoore> "server is attempting to transfer itself out of your network. You have an axe."
[18:29:42] <Blackmoore> "upload is at 15% You have an axe"
[18:30:01] <Blackmoore> "upload is at 40%. You have an axe"
[18:30:18] <Blackmoore> "upload has failed due to ISP"
[18:30:47] <Blackmoore> "computer has shutdown due to depression"
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[19:21:01] <mattie_p> Woods!
[19:21:27] <mattie_p> oh, hey, we've got a MUD, just so you all know (but I nkow you all do)
[19:23:09] <mattie_p> !todo wiki page for MUD
[19:23:09] <deadbeef> todo item 8 added
[19:25:04] <SirFinkus> christ "battle of the bulge" in news reports
[19:25:10] <SirFinkus> maybe it was half clever the first time
[19:25:22] <SirFinkus> but every single report on obesity has that phrase in it
[19:27:38] <Woods> Mattie_p! I did not know anything about a MUD.
[19:31:51] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - The Fall of Hacker Groups - http://sylnt.us - Law-and-Disorder-on-the-Electronic-Frontier
[19:40:29] <mattie_p> Woods: http://soylentnews.org
[19:41:39] <Woods> Oh, I assumed that was fake. Being on the first, and all.
[19:41:49] <mattie_p> nope, 100% legit
[19:41:57] <mattie_p> which is why I need a wiki page for it
[19:42:58] janrinok|afk is now known as janrinok
[19:44:37] <mattie_p> Juggs has even taken the bold step of mapping a lot of it for us and posting the results here: http://juggsdrobly.manichostingservices.co.uk
[19:44:39] <Woods> Maybe after you get the Wiki page set up, we can post an article about it so people will know it is definitely for sure real.
[19:44:55] <mattie_p> I was going to add a link to the main page as well, underneath IRC
[19:45:21] <mattie_p> but that is a good idea
[19:45:32] <mattie_p> anyway, gotta run, see you all in a few hours
[19:45:38] <Woods> Yup
[19:46:28] juggs|afk is now known as juggs
[19:56:55] <LaminatorX> Hah!
[19:58:24] <LaminatorX> My first impression upon seeing Everquest was, "What's all the fuss about? It's just a graphical MUD. Call me when it's half as flexible as MUSH."
[19:58:53] <LaminatorX> The latter would arrive with Secind Life a few years later, but by that time I was too busy for such things.
[19:59:06] <LaminatorX> "Second"
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[20:00:15] <Woods> The only thing I am capable of thinking when I hear of Second Life, is that CSI: NY scene.
[20:01:15] <LaminatorX> Is it on par with the Punk episode of Quincy?
[20:02:33] blackmoore|afk is now known as Blackmoore
[20:04:35] <Blackmoore> hmm.. let's see CSI investegate a crime scene.. in second life. :/
[20:05:43] <Blackmoore> the WIKI page would be great. I had half attempted to join the mud - but forgot about it after.
[20:08:21] <Woods> LaminatorX: Oh geeze. Yes. I would say CSI even kicks it up a notch.
[20:08:39] <Woods> I am having a hard time finding a non handicam video of it though.
[20:22:15] <Woods> I never found it, but I did find a compilation that is worse in every aspect of the word: https://www.youtube.com
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[20:26:20] <Woods> Best comment on the video: "I think that last clip gave me hyper aids."
[20:35:10] <Teckla> LaminatorX: I think EverQuest was probably my favorite multi-player game of all time :(
[20:38:16] <LaminatorX> I'm glad you enjoyed it. What made it such a stand-out for you?
[20:39:29] <Teckla> LaminatorX: I started playing MUDs in the early 1980s and got burned out, so I kind of skipped all the MUD evolution in the late 80s/90s. So when I finally dipped my toes back in the water with EverQuest, I was astonished at how immersive it felt.
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[21:00:17] <janrinok> this is a quiet place on a Friday evening.....
[21:03:12] <Blackmoore> you should have been here early - there was a nice discussion about economics till about 10am est
[21:03:59] <janrinok> lol - glad I missed it, it sounds fascinating^H^H^H^H^H^H^H OK
[21:04:30] <Landon> janrinok is the only winner
[21:04:50] <janrinok> hi Landon , how's things?
[21:06:33] <Landon> trying to get through work
[21:06:36] <Landon> I ran out of internet to feed me
[21:06:56] <janrinok> lol - best of luck, I'll speak when you are less busy...
[21:07:30] <Blackmoore> *headdesk*
[21:07:38] <janrinok> ...or are you suggesting that you are just killing time?
[21:07:46] <Blackmoore> oh internet. why do the wikis suck SO much
[21:08:17] <janrinok> It's so that those watching people use Wikis can get more enjoyment...
[21:09:05] <janrinok> Blackmoore: any particular gripe or just wikis in general?
[21:11:05] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Fuel From Sea Water - http://sylnt.us - not-too-good-to-be-true
[21:17:15] <Blackmoore> well mostly mods for minecraft.
[21:17:32] <Blackmoore> today I'm looking at Ex Nihilo
[21:17:33] <janrinok> not much I can help with unfortunately
[21:17:52] <Blackmoore> but the FTB wikis are just as crappy.
[21:18:16] <janrinok> are you doing it for fun or profit?
[21:18:31] <Blackmoore> I had attempted to help the ftb team add missing pages, and they bitched at me about formatting.
[21:18:52] <janrinok> there's gratitude for you...
[21:19:02] <Blackmoore> fun today. i'm playing Agrarian skys, and need a clue how to use the stuf in the mod
[21:19:50] <Blackmoore> yeah; and a number of the wikis are banned from the work
[21:19:58] <janrinok> You know, you could almost be speaking a foreign language as far as I am concerned. But I'll accept what you say at face value to hide my total ignorance of the subject matter.
[21:21:32] <Blackmoore> :P
[21:21:50] <dentonj> moo
[21:21:54] <dentonj> :P
[21:22:22] <Blackmoore> modded minecraft, it is a skyblock map (that is nearly nothing to stand on) with a bunch of mods added.
[21:22:29] <janrinok> Honestly, I've never played a MUD, or many other games for that matter. Never seemed to find it something I wanted to do.
[21:22:38] <Blackmoore> you start with some resources and have to make the rest
[21:22:45] <janrinok> got you
[21:22:56] juggs is now known as juggs|afk
[21:23:06] <janrinok> That sounds like it could be quite time consuming?
[21:23:20] <janrinok> ...at least until you get the ball rolling, so to speak
[21:23:43] <Blackmoore> yeah. it is. it is very grindy to start with. thus i'm looking for thing i have missed
[21:24:17] <janrinok> Ah, the elusive piece of vital information. Now, that I _can_ relate to.
[21:24:40] <Blackmoore> I wish i was recording some of the session. I blew myself up yesterday
[21:24:49] <janrinok> rofl
[21:25:16] <Blackmoore> (again missing information) i had NO clue that the fishing rod i was attempting to use acted like dynamite
[21:25:23] <Woods> Minecraft can be considered a MUD?
[21:25:38] <janrinok> well you wouldn't immediately assume such a thing, now would you?
[21:25:38] <Blackmoore> eh. i dont think it can.
[21:25:49] <Blackmoore> it's more like a sandbox
[21:26:09] <Blackmoore> oh hell no janrinok .
[21:26:18] <Blackmoore> I had NO idea.
[21:26:25] <janrinok> See, Woods goes on to show that I know nothing about the subject matter - exactly as I claimed. I've been right at least once today!
[21:27:04] <Woods> What is important, Janrinok, is that you at least know how to PRETEND to know about the subject.
[21:27:17] <janrinok> I need to go google minecraft but fear that might cause the loss of the rest of my evening...
[21:27:36] <Blackmoore> MC (at least in normal mode) you can go out and gather resources, you can farm, you can hunt monsters.. wander the globe.
[21:27:45] <janrinok> lol - I'm and editor - as you know we can bullshit about _anything_!
[21:27:48] <Woods> Very simply described: 3D legos.
[21:27:55] <janrinok> an*
[21:28:08] <Blackmoore> yep, you can build, damn near any structure
[21:28:41] <janrinok> tempting, but I still will not look in case something foul befalls me...
[21:28:43] <Blackmoore> and they have a crude type of circiutry (redstone) which you can use to set off things
[21:29:02] <Blackmoore> my kids got me intereested.
[21:29:09] <Blackmoore> and now im addicted.
[21:29:10] <janrinok> Ah, that old excuse
[21:29:20] <Woods> Mmhmm. Add a switch to a piston, and now you can push blocks around and make all kinds of terrifying mechanisms.
[21:29:29] <Blackmoore> yup.
[21:29:35] <janrinok> so playing minecraft is hereditory - you got it from your kids?
[21:29:52] <Blackmoore> more like heroin use :P
[21:29:56] <janrinok> lol
[21:30:15] <LaminatorX> I picked up heroin from my kids too.
[21:30:23] <janrinok> seriously, got to go for a few minutes, brb.
[21:30:36] <janrinok> LamX lol
[21:30:49] <Blackmoore> it's funny I set up a server so the kids and I could play and they mode on to other games.
[21:30:57] <Blackmoore> moved
[21:30:58] <Woods> What a crazy coincidence, I ALSO get my heroin from your kids!
[21:31:11] <Blackmoore> those damn meddling kids of mine
[21:31:17] <LaminatorX> They're quite industrious.
[21:31:28] <Woods> Blackmoore, I think you mean non-meddling?
[21:32:09] <Blackmoore> well, i would expect no less. nah meddling. someone had to needle people into the sweetsweet heroin
[21:36:14] <janrinok> I have returned, suitably armed with alcoholic beverage, to a conversation that suggest I am associating with a bunch of criminals!
[21:36:33] <Blackmoore> excelent!
[21:36:39] <janrinok> Ah Friday evenings are special
[21:36:54] <Blackmoore> i'm still in the office.
[21:37:12] <janrinok> sry, do you mind if I drink while you work ;)
[21:37:13] <Woods> We all are, Blackmoore... In one way or another.
[21:38:01] <Blackmoore> if I had something here "I" would be drinking while at work.
[21:38:21] <Woods> We all would, Blackmoore...
[21:38:37] <janrinok> let me guess - airline pilot, deep sea diver, nuclear missile controller?
[21:38:55] <LaminatorX> I'm thinking a quiet night home with movies, popcorn, and a jalapeno martini or two is just what the doctor ordered.
[21:39:12] <janrinok> now you're talkin'
[21:40:00] <LaminatorX> They were a beautiful discovery owing to the fact that the hot pepper jar and the olive jar are right next to eachother in my refridgerator.
[21:40:15] <janrinok> lol - and it works?
[21:40:51] <LaminatorX> I usually do two pepper slices and two olives.
[21:41:08] <janrinok> I've got to try that!
[21:42:18] <LaminatorX> I did once make a cocktai that had hald of a fresh jalapeno in it. It wasn't hot as you drank it, but your lips gradually started to tingle with successive sips.
[21:42:28] <LaminatorX> "half"
[21:42:54] <janrinok> Not that it stopped you finishing it, mind...
[21:43:18] <LaminatorX> It was a feature, not a bug.
[21:44:06] <janrinok> You know, if we ever all met in person, I suspect it would be a wild night.
[21:44:49] <LaminatorX> We'll aim for a con in 2016.
[21:45:13] <Woods> Will there be an open bar at said con?
[21:45:35] <janrinok> there _has_ to be a bar!
[21:46:06] <LaminatorX> Surely SAP or somebody will want to host a reception.
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[21:49:29] <NCommander> woo
[21:49:29] <Blackmoore> i like the idea!
[21:49:32] <NCommander> Successful failover
[21:49:42] * NCommander just failed our normal web node and the backup kicked in
[21:49:48] <Blackmoore> yeah!
[21:50:03] <janrinok> NCommander: your Friday evenings are just wild!
[21:50:16] <Landon> NCommander: is this a precursor to setting up the netflix monkeys?
[21:50:17] <Landon> :)
[21:50:25] <Landon> chaos monkey*
[21:50:32] <NCommander> Landon, taking advantage of the free Linode upgrade without site downtime
[21:50:47] <NCommander> (well, we had 10 seconds of downtime as the loadbalancer took a moment to realize the failover happened)
[21:59:17] <NCommander> Ok
[21:59:18] <NCommander> perfect
[22:00:40] <janrinok> well done. Does it stay as it is until the next flip-flop or does it immediately revert once the main system is back on line?
[22:01:29] <NCommander> janrinok, right now, its a flipflop
[22:01:37] <NCommander> and its a semi-manual one
[22:01:46] <NCommander> The site can fail over by itself, but slashd doesn't
[22:02:03] <janrinok> that can be corrected tho?
[22:02:21] <NCommander> Yeah
[22:02:32] <NCommander> This is our initial failover test
[22:02:40] <NCommander> To let me do a HW upgrade on hydrogen without ~1.5 hours of downtime
[22:03:03] <janrinok> so it is useful almost immediately
[22:04:25] <Blackmoore> that excelent to hear.
[22:05:08] <NCommander> Broadcast message from mcasadevall@hydrogen
[22:05:09] <NCommander> (/dev/pts/1) at 20:05 ...
[22:05:09] <NCommander> The system is going down for halt in 5 minutes!
[22:05:32] <janrinok> which tz is that?
[22:05:56] <NCommander> UTC
[22:06:34] <janrinok> yes, I just worked out that one of my machines has had its clocked cocked-up by test Windows 7!
[22:06:49] <NCommander> lol
[22:09:54] <drussell> NCommander++
[22:09:54] <deadbeef> karma - ncommander: 23
[22:10:08] <NCommander> <NCommander> The system is going down for halt in 5 minutes!
[22:10:11] <NCommander> er
[22:10:16] <NCommander> THe original web server HAS shutdown
[22:10:19] <NCommander> And the site is still up!
[22:10:33] <NCommander> ...
[22:10:38] <NCommander> And the HW watchdog turned it back on
[22:10:38] <NCommander> Lassie initiated boot: soylent - www
[22:12:32] <Landon> hah
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[22:51:23] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Hollywood-Style Surveillance Inches Closer - http://sylnt.us - I-saw-what-you-did-there,-and-you,-and-you-too
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[23:07:41] <LaminatorX> Have a great weekend, everybody.
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