#Soylent | Logs for 2014-04-12

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[00:05:46] MrBluze is now known as MrBluze|afk
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[00:15:59] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v Dopefish] by juggler
[00:44:07] Dopefish is now known as Dopefish_mobile
[00:53:27] <NCommander> Greetings from CANADA!
[00:54:30] <chromas> NCanandar
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[00:57:11] <arti> canada. the land of ____________
[00:57:37] <xlefay> :P
[00:57:48] <arti> smug bastards
[00:57:56] <arti> beats being fat bastards down south
[00:58:02] <xlefay> pout-ine
[00:58:12] <xlefay> fake bacon
[00:58:17] <xlefay> what other answers do we have?
[00:58:28] <arti> gay bacon? epic meal time
[00:58:49] <xlefay> Tim Horton :~/
[00:59:05] <arti> you an expat or something?
[00:59:25] <xlefay> no
[00:59:39] <xlefay> but I've heard enough to want to try a cup of coffee there
[00:59:57] <arti> get some of the sand they use to make their coffee
[01:00:08] <SirFinkus> http://icontherecord.tumblr.com
[01:00:10] <SirFinkus> lmao
[01:00:13] <arti> enjoy your tooth staining beverage
[01:00:15] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Historical Heartbleed Attacks Possibly Logged - http://sylnt.us - have-they-been-watching-me?
[01:00:20] <xlefay> rofl
[01:00:35] * Konomi plays jaws music
[01:00:37] <SirFinkus> oh god, I love this part
[01:00:40] <SirFinkus> "When Federal agencies discover a new vulnerability in commercial and open source software – a so-called “Zero day” vulnerability because the developers of the vulnerable software have had zero days to fix it – it is in the national interest to responsibly disclose the vulnerability rather than to hold it for an investigative or intelligence purpose."
[01:00:58] <Konomi> oh god that article
[01:01:03] <SirFinkus> note how they don't say they don't do it, only that it would be in the national interest to disclose it
[01:01:07] <Konomi> brb hyperventilating need paper bag
[01:01:27] <xlefay> arti, where do you live?
[01:01:45] <xlefay> The land of Captain America?
[01:03:13] <arti> indeed
[01:03:17] <arti> safe in the empire
[01:03:25] <xlefay> ha :P
[01:03:38] <xlefay> https://soylentnews.org well, isn't that interesting?
[01:03:45] <arti> we just got our rail guns, render unto ceasar what is ceasar's.
[01:03:53] <michealpwalls> haha arti
[01:03:58] <xlefay> rofl
[01:04:02] <michealpwalls> That's epic
[01:04:08] <michealpwalls> hail caesar!
[01:04:45] <arti> just think of it as a giant ass RTS
[01:04:59] <michealpwalls> xlefay: Tim Hortons is not really good coffee :/
[01:05:03] <arti> quiet!
[01:05:09] <arti> you need those tourism dollars
[01:05:14] <xlefay> LOL
[01:05:35] <arti> about once a year i love to pig out on krisy cream
[01:05:49] <arti> like i'll eat a dozen out of sight like a dog
[01:05:50] <michealpwalls> My theory is that, since it was the first major coffee chain in Canada, average Canadians are just used to drinking it. I mean StarBucks doesn't do very well here because the average Canadian would consider it "strong" :|
[01:05:58] <michealpwalls> Tim Hortons is fucking sugar water with cream LOL
[01:06:10] * arti likes his coffee black
[01:06:14] <arti> i tend to drink tea
[01:06:19] <michealpwalls> Nice. I like me some bold coffee :O
[01:06:22] <xlefay> If I hadn't known what Time Hortons was, that statement would have been extremely confusing, michealpwalls
[01:06:30] <michealpwalls> haha sorry
[01:06:35] <arti> but sometimes i don't manage my time well and i need to be funcitonal off of ~ 6 hours of sleep
[01:06:55] * arti assumed xlefay knew
[01:06:56] <xlefay> michealpwalls, haha just sayin' a random lurking is now lmao'ing away :P
[01:07:03] <xlefay> arti, yeah I do
[01:07:12] <michealpwalls> I'm crazy addicted to coffee
[01:07:19] <michealpwalls> I drink it all day long
[01:07:20] * arti is managing his additions
[01:07:26] <arti> 2 weeks on the no smoking
[01:07:39] <xlefay> hmm, that's quite impressive
[01:07:47] <arti> i can actually smell now lol
[01:07:48] <xlefay> michealpwalls, I used to, but not anymore
[01:07:52] <michealpwalls> Congrats. arti!
[01:08:00] <arti> :D it sucks ass, but at least i don't reak
[01:08:14] <arti> now how am i going to impress the cool kids?
[01:08:15] <michealpwalls> To you too, xlefay.. I have thought quite a bit how bad it must be for me (The high volume of coffee I consume everyday..)
[01:08:29] <arti> you should just do rails of the cut up beans
[01:08:34] <arti> with a rolled up $1
[01:08:35] <michealpwalls> haha\!
[01:08:38] <xlefay> rofl
[01:08:43] <michealpwalls> At least that would be socially accepted?
[01:08:49] * arti snorts violently and sniffs a few times
[01:08:54] <arti> ...WHAT
[01:08:56] <michealpwalls> I could "hang" with the cool guys and rail coffee (As they rail cocaine?)
[01:08:58] <michealpwalls> har har har
[01:09:05] <arti> or you can do hot rails
[01:09:13] <michealpwalls> That sounds terrible
[01:09:17] * arti had far too much fun as a lad
[01:09:22] * Konomi is thinking of redoing all her security for the hell of it
[01:09:31] <xlefay> michealpwalls, tbh I'm not surprised :P you're a CentOS user, staying up late comes with the OS :P
[01:09:34] <arti> konomi: did the stalker get loose again?
[01:09:38] <michealpwalls> Security is for consultants :P
[01:09:57] <michealpwalls> haha xlefay
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[01:10:53] * xlefay waits 'not-so-'patiently, for his Winblows box to shrink more space >.<
[01:11:07] <arti> "shrink"
[01:11:14] <arti> are you ... dipping it in cold water?
[01:11:17] <xlefay> ugh yes, gotta shrink the partitions :(
[01:11:23] <michealpwalls> You use windows to shrink volumes? Are you stark raving mad, man?!
[01:11:28] <arti> yes, he is
[01:11:31] <xlefay> before I can free up a drive.. Windows "spanned" shit is weird!
[01:11:39] <michealpwalls> hehe jk. I like gparted though.. For like, everything hehe :P
[01:11:42] <xlefay> michealpwalls, yeah.. but no choice, I can't access the shit via linux :)
[01:11:42] <arti> lol, that's what russia is doing too
[01:11:42] <michealpwalls> Oh!
[01:11:51] <arti> "we're spannin' to crimea"
[01:11:55] <michealpwalls> haha
[01:11:57] <xlefay> LOL
[01:12:05] <xlefay> It's actually not that different!
[01:12:09] <michealpwalls> hahaha
[01:12:31] <arti> event id: 90013 "SPANNING HAS COMPLETED"
[01:12:38] <xlefay> Spanning apparently goes simple as hell but undoing it, now that's the real issue!
[01:12:44] <arti> event id: 90013 "SPANNING SERVICE HAS ENTERED STOPPED STATE"
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[01:13:20] <arti> oh speaking of russia, this dating site picture collection is amazing
[01:13:26] <michealpwalls> Ohhhh! (Just googled windows' spanned volumes)
[01:13:30] <arti> www.eatliver.com/russian-dating/#LcpRvI2iR4AbbW7L.01
[01:13:31] <michealpwalls> I get it now :)
[01:13:36] <xlefay> michealpwalls, it's painful
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[01:13:50] <xlefay> EEK!
[01:13:52] <arti> #2 image would be a great avatar
[01:14:09] <arti> "HELO, I DEVELOP WEBSITE. BEST PRICE!"
[01:14:21] <arti> i should troll some freelance people
[01:14:58] <xlefay> 'helo' haha
[01:15:54] <arti> > What would it take to develop something like google or amazon? I need something done quickly, i can tell if its good or bad work. i'm on a limited budget, so i need quick GOOD work"
[01:16:20] <xlefay> Oh my, I hate those people
[01:16:26] <arti> how about the guy who buys a dashboard template, and dreams up shit to hook it up to
[01:16:35] <michealpwalls> haha
[01:16:38] <xlefay> 'shit' suchs as ? :)
[01:17:13] <arti> oh, wild awesome stuff
[01:17:40] <xlefay> aah and they want you to build it? Well those guys often do pay well
[01:17:40] <michealpwalls> "How cheaply can you integrate PeopleSoft into this ____?"
[01:17:41] <xlefay> 'often'
[01:17:56] <arti> xlefay: sure they do, but typically not very well on the freelance sites
[01:18:01] * arti makes money on those
[01:18:08] <arti> so far the ones i dislike the most are restaurant folk
[01:18:10] <xlefay> arti, that's unfortunately true
[01:18:13] <michealpwalls> Money is always good :P
[01:18:19] <xlefay> They're picky?
[01:18:48] <michealpwalls> I would have imagined restaurant easy..
[01:18:53] <michealpwalls> What 'bout real-estate folk? :P
[01:18:54] <arti> that was how the last one was, i don't have any qualms with that, i just don't like doing more than 3 revisions.
[01:19:00] <arti> i'm used to real estate folk
[01:19:10] <arti> i know how to market to them really well
[01:19:11] <xlefay> They just want it up and working ;)
[01:19:21] <michealpwalls> That's that job I just did ^
[01:19:23] * arti did print brokering for awhile
[01:19:27] <michealpwalls> It was nice. "It just has to work!"
[01:19:28] <michealpwalls> LOL
[01:19:44] <michealpwalls> And "how fast can you...?"
[01:19:47] <arti> yeah, they're crazy as fuck too
[01:20:08] <michealpwalls> I liked the freedom I had :D
[01:20:09] <arti> closing the wrong house
[01:20:20] <arti> the property across the street
[01:20:29] <arti> "hey, we went to open the place up and the key doesn't work"
[01:20:46] <xlefay> *facepalm*
[01:20:54] <arti> all that fucking paperwork LOLOLOL
[01:21:01] <arti> "here's good!"
[01:21:05] <arti> SIGNSIGNSINGSIGN
[01:21:27] <arti> oh well, i moved on to greener pastures after that
[01:21:43] MrBluze|afk is now known as MrBluze
[01:21:57] <arti> i like checking the freelance stuff for project ideas
[01:22:53] <michealpwalls> LOL fire alarm!
[01:23:10] <xlefay> grab your shit and run!
[01:23:39] <Cyprus> oh god freelancer
[01:23:48] <arti> like the game?
[01:23:49] <Cyprus> where everyone wants facebook for the cost of a sandwhich
[01:23:54] <xlefay> ugh yes
[01:24:00] <Cyprus> not even a good sandwhich
[01:24:10] <Cyprus> like turkey
[01:24:55] <arti> turkey sandwiches :D
[01:27:41] <arti> oddly enough the best clients i've dealt with are lawyers
[01:27:53] * arti gets most of his referrals from 'em
[01:28:18] <arti> find a hungry one going through law school and toss 'em a bone
[01:28:37] * MrBluze is sitting at a carpark at the kids' soccer game.. there's this huge fat woman with the biggest set of bingo-wings i've seen in ages.. fussing over her disgusting hair in front of a tiny mirror
[01:28:43] <MrBluze> lucky she can't see the rest of her body
[01:28:48] <arti> LOL
[01:28:54] <arti> take a picture dude
[01:28:59] <arti> c'mon!!!!
[01:29:05] <MrBluze> lol she's too far
[01:29:09] <arti> we can do one of those MEANWHILE IN AUSTRALIA
[01:29:23] <MrBluze> lol yes
[01:29:45] <MrBluze> it's soccer.. fitness etc.. and she is now walking towards the game with a 2 litre bottle of soft drink
[01:29:54] * arti misses soda
[01:30:00] <arti> man that sucked to give up
[01:30:06] <arti> smoking was easier
[01:30:08] <MrBluze> lol
[01:30:12] <MrBluze> i gave it up
[01:30:21] <MrBluze> still got 5kg to go
[01:30:37] <arti> nice, i have another ~10 to go
[01:30:49] <MrBluze> what exercise u doing?
[01:31:07] <arti> kettle bells, hikes, dialed way back on the carbs
[01:31:18] <arti> been bad the last week since i quit, i've been drinking more beer
[01:31:27] <MrBluze> lol the other woman that came with her got an ass so big it has to sqeeze out of the doors of a commodore to get out
[01:31:36] <MrBluze> aand they have big doorways
[01:31:47] <arti> all i see is sloth when i see that
[01:31:51] <MrBluze> 1. never drink your callories
[01:32:08] <MrBluze> uhm.. i do 7 minute HIT
[01:32:11] <arti> how else will i trick women into my place?
[01:32:17] <MrBluze> and that's it
[01:32:39] <Cyprus> yeah lawyers are great clients
[01:32:43] <arti> i massively changed up my diet, do more veggies now. yay for blending
[01:32:44] <Cyprus> just dont ever piss them off
[01:32:55] <arti> cyrpus: nah, two way street
[01:33:01] <arti> unless they want dicks on their site
[01:33:12] <xlefay> rainbow colored like in ##?
[01:33:21] <MrBluze> hikes and all that is good .. but u need to do the high intensity stuff for cardio and for blood sugars
[01:33:33] <arti> MrBluze: does moving my arm like a humming bird count?
[01:33:34] <MrBluze> lol xlefay
[01:33:46] <MrBluze> lmao arti - if u like flying
[01:33:51] <xlefay> morning MrBluze, how are ya?
[01:33:52] <arti> yes... flying
[01:33:56] <MrBluze> xlefay: ## is removed from my auto-joins
[01:34:00] * arti pokes the lotion out of sight
[01:34:04] <xlefay> Was thinking about it ha
[01:34:11] <MrBluze> im good xlefay how u?
[01:34:24] <xlefay> same, still a bit raging at Windows but good
[01:34:36] <arti> xlefay: damn that polished user experience
[01:34:36] <MrBluze> im raging at the openssl bug being known by nsa for 2 years
[01:34:51] <arti> NOT your SECURITY AGENCY :P
[01:34:57] <MrBluze> lucky i am non-controversial
[01:35:02] <xlefay> Did anyone even tried to check the NSA's website for that bug? :)
[01:35:07] <arti> lol
[01:35:12] <arti> they'd probably have a honey pot setup
[01:35:18] <MrBluze> lol they did, but they havent been seen since
[01:35:23] <xlefay> LOL
[01:35:24] <arti> "oh look its %important person% phone number
[01:36:37] <MrBluze> it was known already for a long time that anything made by intel is not trustworthy for at least 6 years now
[01:37:03] <xlefay> The NSA would beg to differ :P
[01:37:04] <arti> just hang on to some vintage equip from the late 80s
[01:37:52] <MrBluze> but the strategy is rape everything in sight, and what is not visible target for human infiltration
[01:37:58] * xlefay wonders if someone would set their toaster up to auto ping NSA's website at regular intervals if they'd notice..
[01:38:56] <arti> since they do traffic dumps world wide i'm sure
[01:39:01] <arti> the question is when would they discover it
[01:39:05] <arti> "halp big datas!"
[01:39:34] <xlefay> You'd be throwing it straight at them, that should make 'em happy no? :)
[01:40:05] <MrBluze> the way to thwart them is to use sensitive words in every day speech and in public everywhere, make it all part of daily chatter
[01:40:30] <xlefay> ugh and let them deploy smarter ways to detect it?
[01:40:57] <xlefay> let's just all start speaking Klingon instead ;)
[01:41:28] <MrBluze> sounds doog
[01:44:15] <xlefay> honestly though, if the Americans are doing, who else is?
[01:44:24] <xlefay> That's the better question imo
[01:44:43] <MrBluze> well firstly, it's who the americans work for, that's who else is
[01:44:57] <MrBluze> and then the kgb is doing it
[01:45:13] <MrBluze> but they are less well off tbh
[01:45:17] <xlefay> KGB doesn't exists anymore it's the srv or something like tht now
[01:45:19] <xlefay> that*
[01:45:33] <MrBluze> yeah i know.. it's whatever it is called now, fsb
[01:45:37] <xlefay> Although, tthe KGB's initials where way cooler
[01:46:13] <MrBluze> hard thing to work out is which is the lesser of two evils
[01:46:35] <xlefay> Chose neither and be come evil yourself, way more profitable!
[01:47:27] <xlefay> s/be come/become/
[01:47:27] <SedBot> <xlefay> Chose neither and become evil yourself, way more profitable!
[01:47:39] * xlefay pets SedBot, good boy!
[01:49:00] <MrBluze> we've entered the neo-soviet era
[01:49:17] <MrBluze> as was predicted in the early 20th century
[01:49:42] <xlefay> I'm curious as to the good things that may come from what they're doing
[01:50:02] <MrBluze> ... lots of good things if u have the right genetic background
[01:50:07] <MrBluze> and none if you don't
[01:50:21] <xlefay> heh?
[01:50:23] <MrBluze> welcome to animal farm v2.0
[01:50:54] <MrBluze> explain later .. gtg :) kids soccer starting
[01:51:15] <xlefay> Ok, be careful out there, I heard there were quite a few eligible ladies there!
[01:51:27] <xlefay> oh he already detached :(
[01:51:46] MrBluze is now known as MrBluze|afk
[01:51:50] <michealpwalls> Well that was an event.
[01:51:52] <michealpwalls> LOL
[01:52:03] <xlefay> ? :)
[01:52:14] <michealpwalls> Soooo many firetrucks and police cars :O
[01:52:25] <michealpwalls> Good times had by all ;)
[01:52:29] <xlefay> rofl
[01:52:32] <xlefay> what happened?
[01:52:39] <michealpwalls> I'm pretty sure somebody in the building got raided while the firedepartment was here
[01:52:47] <Cyprus> lol
[01:53:19] <xlefay> michealpwalls, is it really 'you'?
[01:53:26] <michealpwalls> There was a police van and so many police cars and a fucking news guy was here (Since when does the news care about an apartment building fire? LOL)
[01:53:36] <michealpwalls> haha no, I'm sargent step-on-your-rights here
[01:53:39] <michealpwalls> (rofl)
[01:53:41] <xlefay> rofl
[01:54:15] <michealpwalls> brb, watching TED talks :D
[01:54:23] <xlefay> Ok enjoy
[02:01:10] crutchy|zzz is now known as crutchy
[02:02:05] <xlefay> arti, crutchy: http://docs.php.net
[02:02:18] -!- michealpwalls has quit []
[02:02:40] <crutchy> hi xlefay
[02:02:42] <Cyprus> 5.6: now with ultra really secure mysql escape quotes
[02:02:44] <xlefay> hi :)
[02:08:26] <crutchy> mysql_real_actual_proper_nobullshit_nowwereseriousaboutsecurity_escape_string
[02:08:56] <xlefay> They should have depreciated mysql_ crap in 5.3 or so
[02:09:18] <crutchy> i still haven't finished my pedo migration
[02:10:08] <xlefay> is that an intentional typo?
[02:10:30] <crutchy> TED videos are cool. i like the one where they were playing with 4 little helicopter things
[02:11:09] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - The Affect Of A Name - http://sylnt.us - call-me-what-you-will
[02:11:21] <Cyprus> you know, reading that change list, it really bothered me they added a hash_equals for comparing strings to protect against timing attacks
[02:11:48] <Cyprus> when the first thing that comes to mind is "why the ever living hell are you storing non hashed passwords to begin with, jerkass?"
[02:12:22] <crutchy> i never use much of that new fangled crap. i've always been slow on picking up new things though. i still use delphi 7!
[02:13:15] <Cyprus> if anything, that function should blow up with an error refrencing this: http://xkcd.com
[02:14:25] <crutchy> there's a problem with that xkcd
[02:14:35] <crutchy> what if he's teaching fucking 101?
[02:14:48] <Cyprus> that would be a cool class
[02:14:58] <crutchy> maybe for the teacher
[02:15:09] <xlefay> rofl @ the hover text ;)
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[02:15:28] <crutchy> ooh i always forget those
[02:15:38] <Cyprus> lol
[02:17:09] <crutchy> i don't tend to get too crazy about security. i try to cover the most common traps like sql injection, xss, pwd hashing, and server setup to prevent hacking, but i think getting too complicated with security just opens the possibility of there being security-related bugs
[02:17:22] <crutchy> then again i don't work for bank IT
[02:17:35] <crutchy> probably lucky for bank customers :-P
[02:18:00] <Cyprus> if a site will send me my password, i try not to use the site
[02:18:51] <crutchy> most sites send a password if you forget i think
[02:18:57] <crutchy> then you change it
[02:19:05] <Cyprus> reset is cool
[02:19:16] <Cyprus> but if they send me my plain text password, it means it's not stored securelty
[02:19:24] <Cyprus> s/lty/ly/
[02:19:24] <SedBot> <Cyprus> but if they send me my plain text password, it means it's not stored securely
[02:19:45] <crutchy> oh yeah sending plain text would be bad. implies they aren't hashing
[02:19:53] <Cyprus> it does more than imply =)
[02:21:43] <crutchy> xlefay: got a little template parser working last night. it's the start of a beautiful thing :-)
[02:22:23] <crutchy> combining it with the stuff i made to query microsoft access databases
[02:22:43] <xlefay> database stuff in templates?
[02:22:50] <crutchy> yeah
[02:23:00] <crutchy> in my wiki
[02:23:35] <xlefay> how does the parser work? :P
[02:24:09] <crutchy> so if you put something like <db>main:Main Table:Job Description:[Job Number]=%%title%%</db> it returns the value of the job description field from main table based on the title of the wiki article
[02:24:44] <crutchy> i was thinking about just putting the full select query in... not sure yet
[02:25:12] <crutchy> actually %%title%% needs quotes around it
[02:26:20] <crutchy> the %%%title%% bit is the template parser... it works for that. will eventually make it so that you can make a wiki article and then include the content of that wiki article in another wiki article
[02:26:44] <xlefay> hmm, not to annoy or anything, but shouldn't that be kept outside of the templates?
[02:27:08] <xlefay> s/kept/done/
[02:27:08] <SedBot> <xlefay> hmm, not to annoy or anything, but shouldn't that be done outside of the templates?
[02:27:09] <crutchy> shouldn't what be kept out?
[02:27:18] <xlefay> The database queries, for instance
[02:27:53] <Cyprus> yeah that isn't much of a template
[02:27:57] <xlefay> e.g. before you render your views, you already know the page title (or least, you should) - you can then, run such a query for instance and pass it on
[02:28:00] <crutchy> it's what you type in the article editor of the wiki. nothing to do with code
[02:28:23] <xlefay> oh? You can do SQL queries /from/ inside your wiki pages?
[02:28:23] <crutchy> yeah
[02:28:30] <crutchy> yup
[02:28:46] <crutchy> i've already got functions that do the access query stuff
[02:28:59] * Cyprus mumbles something about little bobby tables
[02:29:16] <crutchy> that's why i was thinking about the first syntax
[02:29:28] <crutchy> db:table:field:where
[02:29:42] <crutchy> and constructing select query from that
[02:29:53] <crutchy> rather than reading entire query from the wiki article content
[02:30:48] <crutchy> it's also an internal company lan only, so not going to be exposed to the wider interwebs :-)
[02:30:54] <crutchy> well, yet lol
[02:30:56] <xlefay> As long as you use prepared statements, I suppose it can't do much harm, I would however add 'select'
[02:31:27] <crutchy> the select will be implied at this stage. no insert/update/delete yet
[02:31:40] <xlefay> crutchy, err, I meant select fields*
[02:31:55] <xlefay> e.g. 'select one,two,three etc..' but - isn't there a better way to do this?
[02:32:10] <crutchy> hmm yeah i dunno
[02:32:35] <Cyprus> you could always use / =P
[02:32:37] * Cyprus ducks
[02:32:50] <xlefay> What you're doing, regardless of who can access it, is still somewhat unsecure
[02:33:14] <Cyprus> its pretty dangerous actually
[02:33:22] <crutchy> how do you mean? *is interested*
[02:34:03] <xlefay> Regardless of the implementation, you'l allow any SQL query to go through
[02:34:26] <xlefay> e.g. you could query another unrelated DB, you can query every table, etc.
[02:34:31] <Cyprus> the whole point of bobby tables, is that it was a select query that allowed arbitrary input in the where line
[02:34:44] <crutchy> i'll have to filter each string part i think
[02:34:53] <crutchy> no ;
[02:34:56] <xlefay> Essentially, what you're building is any script kiddie's dream :)
[02:34:58] <crutchy> or 'select'
[02:35:03] <Cyprus> what X said
[02:35:17] <xlefay> crutchy, even with prepared statements it doesn't lower the risk
[02:35:21] <Cyprus> this is what i would call a DB crawler
[02:35:59] <xlefay> just makes another attack vector possible, e.g. "userdb:users:email:x=x"
[02:36:12] <xlefay> that would be the least of your worries :)
[02:36:59] <xlefay> crutchy, a better question, what are you trying to achieve with that interface?
[02:37:01] <crutchy> userdb would have to exist in a hardcoded array of known databases, users table doesn't exist, email field doesn't exist
[02:37:11] <Cyprus> its not as fun as someone running eval on arbitrary input, but it's still pretty fun
[02:37:19] <crutchy> but yeah the idea would be that if there were a users table with an email field you could query it :-)
[02:37:48] <xlefay> consider long term effective, one day, you'll need to query a DB from there and you won't think any of it and just add it to said array
[02:38:06] <xlefay> another day, it's decided the wiki has to be publicly accessible (just throwing some thoughts here)
[02:38:28] <crutchy> the "publicly accessible" think is a huge step
[02:38:31] <xlefay> Short-term it may work precisely as you wish, but can you guarantee yourself it can long-term? and that it's only for you?
[02:39:26] <crutchy> long term i wanna migrate the access databases to rdms anyway
[02:39:57] <crutchy> but having the ability to get database content into wiki pages would still be handy
[02:40:20] <crutchy> for things like job tracking pages
[02:40:37] <xlefay> From your parser, you indicated you can include one page into another right?
[02:40:51] <crutchy> not yet but yeah that's what i wanna do :-)
[02:40:55] <crutchy> that's the next step
[02:41:12] <crutchy> i've got a switch default ready to go
[02:41:23] <xlefay> Perhaps, a console tool 'createwikipage name "db:table:etc.."' (or just, the query directly) would be a bit more secure and still give you the benefits?
[02:41:39] <xlefay> Then you, can simple generate the pages - and include them in your other pages
[02:42:09] <xlefay> you could even keep track of the queries in your DB; and re-generate them on change via cron ;)
[02:42:12] <crutchy> yeah that would probably be easier, except there's no console in this case
[02:42:31] <crutchy> that way users can include a database field without having to remember syntax of the template
[02:42:48] <crutchy> or field names etc
[02:43:35] <crutchy> i could just create an article named "template_job_description" and put the db tag in there
[02:43:41] <xlefay> hmm, so you can't run things via cron?
[02:43:54] <crutchy> not from a client
[02:44:06] <crutchy> it's a web interface and all clients are win7/8
[02:44:19] <crutchy> or android/ios
[02:44:21] <xlefay> hmm, yeah I just assumed you would be the only one adding such pages
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[02:45:14] <crutchy> nah it's a company intranet
[02:45:35] <xlefay> In that case, I wouldn't be surprised if you'll get the request for the ability to aggregate data
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[02:45:58] <crutchy> yeah. i've already predicted job timesheet data aggregation
[02:46:29] <xlefay> Do you have "big data" in your DB?
[02:46:41] <crutchy> hmm not really yet
[02:46:50] <crutchy> fairly early days for the wiki part
[02:47:04] <xlefay> One thing you'll want to do is set a limit on how much data can be fetched from the db
[02:47:15] <crutchy> the wiki started as a doc for the engineering apps, but is gradually changing into a wider company thing
[02:47:44] <xlefay> Honestly though, I'd brainstorm more before actually considering putting such a functionality in
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[02:48:05] <xlefay> It's a disaster waiting to happen, whether it's intentionally or unintentionally
[02:48:24] <crutchy> $sql="SELECT UNIX_TIMESTAMP(TimeStamp) AS UnixTimeStamp FROM ".DB_SCHEMA_WIKI.".Images WHERE (Title=:Title) ORDER BY TimeStamp DESC LIMIT 1";
[02:48:33] <crutchy> that's the main article select
[02:48:50] <crutchy> lol actuqally maybe not
[02:49:04] <Cyprus> this sounds like you're trying to implement a light version of crystal or access inside of a wiki
[02:49:22] <Cyprus> which i could see the uses for
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[02:50:21] <crutchy> atm i have some limited microsoft access query functionality inside the web app... i've got a little tool (using gd) that draws a gantt chart using timesheet data for a specific job number
[02:50:22] <xlefay> Cyprus, I agree, there could be a lot of benefit I'm just careful with implementing such functionality
[02:50:31] <crutchy> yeah have to be a bit careful
[02:50:35] <Cyprus> yeah
[02:50:41] <crutchy> i'm a bit lucky the userbase is small and trustworthy
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[02:50:53] <Cyprus> the problem becomes embedding the control languange with the data
[02:50:54] <crutchy> but yeah want to make it as secure as i can
[02:51:05] <Cyprus> signaling should generally be side channel, this breaks that
[02:51:16] <crutchy> signalling?
[02:51:33] <crutchy> or signaling? (however its spelt)
[02:51:49] <xlefay> Just prepare certain queries, ensure input is in a list of allowed, then you *might* be safe enough
[02:52:19] <Cyprus> honestly, this might be safer using masks
[02:52:28] <xlefay> When you start allowing aggregating of data.. you're going to walk into a lions-den of possible security issues
[02:52:30] <Cyprus> make a list of things that can be done in the plugin
[02:52:37] <crutchy> i could maybe have a whitelist of allowed fields along with the array of available dbs?
[02:52:50] <xlefay> crutchy, Cyprus right, that would be the proper approach
[02:52:53] <Cyprus> but at a certian point, you're reimplementing sql
[02:53:09] <Cyprus> and are better off using an intern instead of a plugin
[02:53:20] <xlefay> rofl
[02:53:28] <crutchy> to some extent, but i think i'd rather separate the query from the data from a security perspective
[02:53:34] <crutchy> lol
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[02:53:39] <Cyprus> im serious
[02:53:50] <xlefay> crutchy, regardless, you do both with masks & prepared queries
[02:54:05] <Cyprus> when you get to the point you're reimplementing a language in a parser to make it work in X, an intern with a phone number is a better solution
[02:54:17] <xlefay> but, again, there's only so much you can do with this approach before either opening doors or making life so extremely hard
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[02:54:38] <xlefay> Cyprus++
[02:54:38] <deadbeef> karma - cyprus: 3
[02:54:41] <Cyprus> yeah, you can do it, but it's easier to just have an intern update the page
[02:54:46] <crutchy> the uses are probably more data aggregation related (not really intern tasks)
[02:54:56] <Cyprus> you misunderstand
[02:55:02] <crutchy> the intention is that anyone could update the page
[02:55:07] <Cyprus> the intern runs the query, and pastes the output in the page
[02:55:17] <Cyprus> anyone can call the intern =P
[02:55:50] <crutchy> yeah i guess that could work
[02:56:06] <Cyprus> technical solutions arent always the best option
[02:56:10] <crutchy> but could also do that just by pasting data straight out of access
[02:56:19] <Cyprus> this sounds like it will be more programming than just running the querys for bob
[02:56:36] <Cyprus> at least to do it right
[02:57:07] <Cyprus> you can always just make a dosql plugin, put "here be dragons" in the documentation, then post your resume after the atta boy from your boss
[02:57:53] <Cyprus> i mean if the user running the query has no rights, and all the data is cool to be read, this is mostly pointless security anyway
[02:57:54] <crutchy> there's a bit of programming, but only to parse the custom tag
[02:58:03] <crutchy> i have custom tag parsers already
[02:58:08] <crutchy> so copypasta :-P
[02:58:10] <Cyprus> by all, i mean anything that the user can see
[02:58:31] <crutchy> the access database as it is is very insecure already
[02:58:39] <xlefay> The first disk is finally unspanned, w00t!
[02:58:44] <crutchy> this wouldn't open up any security loopholes that aren't already there
[02:58:52] <Cyprus> just be sure to name the user "ohgoddontusethisusereveragainexeptforreadonlyonappX"
[02:58:54] <xlefay> fml this took forever but it worked!
[02:59:08] <crutchy> lol
[02:59:17] <Cyprus> xlefay: rofl @ unspan
[02:59:34] <crutchy> xlefay: now don't do it again :-P
[02:59:37] <xlefay> jeez I've been shifting data for days, *finally* one disk is out
[02:59:39] <Cyprus> hey crutchy, that access database isn't accessed via SMB is it?
[02:59:56] <xlefay> crutchy, it wasn't me _but_ I won't let it be done again ;-)
[02:59:56] <Cyprus> its really a front end for a real db right?
[03:00:15] <crutchy> it's stored on a server and usually opened by clients directly as a file
[03:00:22] <crutchy> horrible way of doing it
[03:00:27] <crutchy> but that's what we have
[03:00:28] <Cyprus> directly on the server, or via file sharing?
[03:00:44] <crutchy> oh yeah i meant via file share over lan
[03:01:02] <Cyprus> you know that's a very high risk of data corruption if it's ever simultaneously accessed right?
[03:01:08] <crutchy> yeah
[03:01:10] <Cyprus> as in, will never open again
[03:01:14] <crutchy> that has happened a couple of times
[03:01:18] <crutchy> we've had to restore
[03:01:21] <crutchy> it sucks i know
[03:01:50] <Cyprus> heh
[03:01:52] <crutchy> i've mentioned moving the tables to mysql and just using the mdb front end
[03:01:54] <Cyprus> just making sure you knew
[03:02:08] <crutchy> i've had a lot of experience with access bullshit
[03:02:15] <crutchy> i hate access :-/
[03:02:29] <Cyprus> access isn't that bad, but people who use it via SMB are doing it wrong
[03:02:44] <crutchy> it's ok for little mom&pop shops with just one computer
[03:03:20] <crutchy> our db at work is also very slow
[03:03:51] <crutchy> it's quicker to query from the web app than it is to open access and run query :-P
[03:04:02] <Cyprus> thats a few different things
[03:04:06] <Cyprus> easily fixed though
[03:04:27] <Cyprus> have you thought about replacing the box with something running samba?
[03:04:33] <crutchy> the program actually running the queries for the web app is a delphi program using ado
[03:04:44] <crutchy> a linux file server?
[03:04:46] <Cyprus> ok gotta run
[03:04:59] <crutchy> oh thanks for the chat cyprus. cya :-)
[03:05:02] <Cyprus> yeah, modern samba is much faster than 2k
[03:05:15] <Cyprus> and supports full ACL management
[03:05:20] <Cyprus> the clients cant tell the difference
[03:05:26] <crutchy> mkay
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[03:05:47] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v Bytram|away] by juggler
[03:05:50] <Cyprus> you really should suck that into a db though
[03:06:06] <Cyprus> doing access over lan is horrible due to the way it has to scan the db
[03:06:17] <crutchy> yeah
[03:06:26] <crutchy> chokes the network too
[03:06:42] <Cyprus> exactly
[03:07:00] Bytram|away is now known as Bytram
[03:08:05] <Cyprus> anyway out, we can chat later about suggestions crutchy
[03:08:17] <crutchy> yeah definitely. thanks again matey
[03:08:22] <crutchy> have fun
[03:08:24] -!- Cyprus has quit [Quit: party time]
[03:28:39] <arti> sup crutchy
[03:29:46] <crutchy> g'day arti
[03:30:12] * crutchy is eating a cheese and *bacon* roll :-P
[03:30:16] <crutchy> bacon++
[03:30:16] <deadbeef> karma - bacon: 218
[03:30:28] <arti> sounds like an awesome way to not poop
[03:30:43] <arti> i do enjoy both of those things
[03:30:44] <crutchy> wow bacon isn't that popular in #soylent
[03:30:51] * arti should refrain from that while crutchy is eating
[03:31:01] <arti> so uh, objects
[03:31:13] <crutchy> and globals
[03:31:15] <crutchy> :-
[03:31:17] <crutchy> P
[03:31:29] * arti is working on dispatching emails with mandrill
[03:31:36] <crutchy> bah left handed two finger typig
[03:31:38] <arti> some exception is thrown and i'm really not feeling it atm
[03:31:47] <arti> most of the keys are hit with the left hand
[03:31:49] <crutchy> i have a mandrill
[03:31:59] <arti> do they call them "screwguns" there too?
[03:32:02] <crutchy> no woman is allowed to use my drill /;'
[03:32:37] <crutchy> exceptions suckj
[03:32:53] <crutchy> no line number ref?
[03:33:18] * crutchy has never used madrill
[03:33:38] <crutchy> hmm that roll was too small
[03:33:46] <arti> that was a japanese roll?
[03:33:55] <arti> or uh...
[03:34:00] <crutchy> lol
[03:35:23] <crutchy> so dispatching emails eh
[03:35:45] <crutchy> its easy in php. guessing there's some catch in mandrill
[03:36:04] <arti> yeah i got a trace
[03:36:06] <xlefay> ^ depends on the lib you use
[03:36:15] <arti> code works in another project, pulled it over, and i think i'm missing something
[03:36:16] <xlefay> unless you're using plain ol' mail()
[03:36:34] <crutchy> mil() is awesome :-)
[03:36:40] <crutchy> s/mil/mail/
[03:36:40] <SedBot> <crutchy> mail() is awesome :-)
[03:36:53] <arti> except when you start sending more than 500/hour
[03:37:02] <xlefay> crutchy, it only does about a few hundred things wrong ;-)
[03:37:14] <crutchy> ahh well. if it works :-P
[03:37:20] * arti understands this well
[03:37:29] <xlefay> arti, are you using SES or something or just from the server itself?
[03:37:38] <crutchy> 500/hr is only 9 per minute
[03:37:50] <arti> "only"
[03:38:00] <arti> imagine you have status updates firing off
[03:38:10] <crutchy> i'm pretty such mail() could do more than that
[03:38:15] <crutchy> though admittedly never tried
[03:38:15] <arti> mail can do plenty more
[03:38:26] <xlefay> it just doesn't do it awesomely.
[03:38:31] <crutchy> ahh
[03:38:33] <arti> most providers throttle you
[03:38:33] <crutchy> :-)
[03:38:47] <crutchy> yeah beating the spam filters is a problem
[03:38:48] <arti> xlefay, from the server itself
[03:38:53] <xlefay> auch that's gotta hurt
[03:38:57] <arti> which is why i like using a party that handles that
[03:39:20] <xlefay> I like SES, it's really good at what it does
[03:39:43] <xlefay> No need to fuss with parsing bounces manually, etc.. it's just so easy ;-)
[03:39:45] <arti> i'll scope it out
[03:39:52] <crutchy> if you wanted to send spam, might be better to have an array of providers and round robin them or something?
[03:39:57] <arti> xlefay++
[03:39:58] <deadbeef> karma - xlefay: 47
[03:40:04] <arti> might have to buy you a beer
[03:40:05] <xlefay> SES isn't a script though. It's an Amazon service
[03:40:11] <arti> simple email service
[03:40:12] <xlefay> -it- is also, dirty cheap compared to others!
[03:40:23] <xlefay> Honestly.. it's so much cheaper than at others
[03:40:26] <arti> i've seen another one too, i don't need quite that much volume
[03:40:32] <arti> but its nice to have options
[03:40:42] <arti> email is one of those things i never want to handle
[03:41:02] <xlefay> Say, 200K mails, with SES you pay $20 .. you don't want to know how much you'll pay with mailchimp for instance ;)
[03:41:26] <xlefay> plus, you don't have to worry about getting blacklisted, throttled, dealing with bounces, etc..
[03:42:16] <xlefay> oh you use: http://mandrill.com currently?
[03:42:25] <crutchy> i only use mail() for server errors and mem stats in a crontab
[03:43:10] <xlefay> I normally don't use mail() directly.
[03:43:32] <crutchy> i only mail to myself though
[03:43:54] <xlefay> For high volume mails or a situation arti describes, SES. For other situations, I'd just use Swiftmailer (it wraps around mail())
[03:44:11] <xlefay> arti, if you're going to use SES; remember to use curl multi!
[03:44:16] <crutchy> i made a little mail wrapper too
[03:44:56] <xlefay> mail() is pretty shitty in itself though, relying on it isn't recommended
[03:45:07] <xlefay> (plenty of reasons to find on that subject on the interwebz)
[03:45:26] <crutchy> xlefay: s/webz/blags/
[03:45:26] <SedBot> <crutchy> <xlefay> (plenty of reasons to find on that subject on the world wide webs)
[03:45:35] <crutchy> ?
[03:45:43] <crutchy> xlefay: s/webz/blags/
[03:45:43] <SedBot> <crutchy> <xlefay> (plenty of reasons to find on that subject on the intertubess)
[03:45:44] <xlefay> > SedBot automagically replaces stuff
[03:45:54] <xlefay> e.g.
[03:46:00] <xlefay> I've had such a great time on the internet
[03:46:07] <crutchy> internet
[03:46:07] <xlefay> s/great/random/
[03:46:07] <SedBot> <xlefay> I've had such a random time on the webweb
[03:46:22] <crutchy> s/i/j/
[03:46:22] <SedBot> <crutchy> jnternet
[03:46:38] <xlefay> edit something except for internet ;)
[03:46:46] <xlefay> s/something/w00tw00t/
[03:46:46] <SedBot> <xlefay> edit w00tw00t except for world wide web ;)
[03:46:51] <crutchy> s///
[03:47:13] <crutchy> !woop
[03:47:13] <deadbeef> woop woop woop (\/) (;,,;) (\/)
[03:47:20] <Bytram> !uid
[03:47:20] <deadbeef> The current maximum UID is 4091, owned by Yaa101
[03:47:23] <xlefay> deadbeef, s/woop/w00t/g
[03:47:26] <xlefay> eek
[03:47:27] <xlefay> !woot
[03:47:29] <xlefay> !woop
[03:47:29] <deadbeef> woop woop woop (\/) (;,,;) (\/)
[03:47:31] <xlefay> deadbeef, s/woop/w00t/g
[03:47:31] <SedBot> <xlefay> <deadbeef> w00t w00t w00t (\/) (;,,;) (\/)
[03:47:41] <Bytram> !woof
[03:47:43] <Bytram> !meow
[03:47:47] <xlefay> !koffie
[03:47:47] * deadbeef vult een kopje met decafe voor xlefay
[03:47:52] <arti> dutch?
[03:48:02] <xlefay> yeah the original author put that stuff in
[03:48:03] <arti> a cup of decaf coffee
[03:48:03] <Bytram> oui!
[03:48:05] <xlefay> he was obviously dutch
[03:48:17] <xlefay> and he was insane at that;-)
[03:48:20] <arti> dutch is like a really fucked up german
[03:48:26] <xlefay> ehh the other way around buddy
[03:48:47] <Bytram> I studied some German in high school
[03:48:49] <arti> so he was insane and obviously dutch?
[03:48:52] <Bytram> She was cute.
[03:48:55] <xlefay> LOL
[03:48:57] <Bytram> j/k
[03:49:11] <xlefay> arti, just try: !sex - and you'll see how insane he was ;-)
[03:49:14] <Bytram> actually, studied it for 3 years.
[03:49:18] <arti> !sex
[03:49:18] * deadbeef Heb je de sleutel van m'n kuisheidsgordel dan? arti
[03:49:34] * arti can't help but hear swedish chef
[03:49:39] <xlefay> eek.. I'm not even going to translate that
[03:49:45] <Bytram> nearly 20 years later found myself doing some work in germany and could still carry on a conversation.
[03:49:47] <crutchy> !das ist mein hambuger
[03:50:04] <xlefay> crutchy, s/(.*)/dat is mijn hamburger!/
[03:50:04] <SedBot> <xlefay> <crutchy> dat is mijn hamburger!
[03:50:05] * arti likes the locals
[03:50:22] <xlefay> here, fixed that for ya
[03:50:55] <arti> :D
[03:51:08] <Bytram> funny thing is that I'll occasionally land on a dutch website, try and read it out loud (in my mind) and listen to what it sounds like, and can get a good idea of what is written.
[03:51:32] <xlefay> Bytram, yes, the Germans went to great pains to keep the similarity when they stole our language.
[03:51:37] <Bytram> It hurts my brain like listenening to someone with a very strong accent ('cause that is what it is), but I can make some sense of it!
[03:51:42] <arti> lol
[03:51:48] <Bytram> lol!
[03:51:54] <crutchy> i like french
[03:52:00] <crutchy> well, french chicks anyway :-P
[03:52:01] <arti> bytram i agree, for the most part you can make it out
[03:52:05] <Bytram> crisp: fries?
[03:52:18] <xlefay> crutchy, they're overrated imo
[03:52:30] <arti> baugettefresser
[03:52:34] <xlefay> Now French Fries on the other hand!
[03:52:46] <arti> ...
[03:52:48] <xlefay> arti, I hazn't has a clue what that means
[03:53:07] <arti> xlefay, whats the dutch word for eating?
[03:53:11] <crutchy> i hear that scandinavian chicks are pretty hot too
[03:53:11] <xlefay> eten
[03:53:11] <arti> like people eating
[03:53:15] <Bytram> almost easier for me to understand dutch than it is to understand sudder deutsch; was in austria for a week and that german wird mir sehr schwer to verstehen!
[03:53:15] <arti> and animals?
[03:53:22] <xlefay> dieren = animals
[03:53:50] <arti> essen = to eat, fressen = animals to eat
[03:54:05] <xlefay> Bytram, actually, Dutch is generally somewhat easier note the *generally*
[03:54:15] <Bytram> noted
[03:55:01] <xlefay> See, that's what happens. They stole our language and they obfuscated it in the hopes we wouldn't notice.
[03:55:13] <crutchy> or defacated in it
[03:55:23] <arti> nordic languages lel
[03:55:55] <xlefay> lower explosive limit?
[03:56:04] <arti> uh, depends on the food
[03:56:09] <xlefay> rofl ;)
[03:56:18] <Bytram> might be buritos
[03:56:23] <pbnjoe> I wonder if topkek stands for anything :p
[03:56:28] <Bytram> can be quite explosive
[03:56:29] <arti> i would miss mexican food if i lived anywhere else
[03:56:31] <arti> terribly
[03:56:46] <xlefay> pbnjoe, haven't even got a clue what it means ;-)
[03:56:47] <arti> had some friends come statesite for the first time, blew their minds
[03:57:08] <arti> from croatia
[03:57:12] <xlefay> nice
[03:57:36] <arti> :O~
[03:57:41] MrBluze|afk is now known as MrBluze
[03:57:54] <Bytram> afk 10 minutes
[03:57:57] <pbnjoe> xlefay, it's a multi-level degeneration of lol used on a site I go to when I feel like wasting my time
[03:58:12] <pbnjoe> and seeing how terrible people can be haha
[03:58:28] <xlefay> I see ;o
[03:59:06] <arti> what, lel?
[03:59:14] <xlefay> topkek
[03:59:16] <pbnjoe> dunno why I go; it's a shithole
[03:59:17] <arti> aaaah
[03:59:24] <arti> it's a spectacle dude
[03:59:31] <xlefay> pbnjoe, well, whatever rocks your boat ;-)
[03:59:34] <pbnjoe> true
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[04:00:30] <pbnjoe> (as an aside people usually say "floats" not "rocks" :) )
[04:00:37] <pbnjoe> unless you meant that to have a different meaning
[04:00:47] <xlefay> aah noted!
[04:00:53] <arti> rocking the boat = bad
[04:01:01] <arti> floating the boat = good
[04:01:10] <xlefay> hmm, interesting
[04:01:10] <arti> motor-boating = extra good
[04:01:14] <pbnjoe> hahahaha
[04:01:31] <arti> i'll take English Trivia for $200
[04:01:53] <pbnjoe> well, rocking the boat means changing the status quo and isn't necessarily bad, right?
[04:02:09] <pbnjoe> in the physical sense it's bad, yeah
[04:02:24] <xlefay> and I was once told it merely meant "whatever you like"
[04:02:45] <arti> hey xlefay: as far as your language claims of stolen: http://en.wikipedia.org
[04:02:57] <arti> wouldn't it be Dutchic, instead of Germanic :P
[04:02:59] <xlefay> arti, ugh don't you dare bring facts into this!
[04:03:02] <pbnjoe> hehehe
[04:03:14] <xlefay> hah but yes, probably
[04:03:36] <pbnjoe> dutchic sounds funny phonetically
[04:03:52] <arti> you guys did invent the dutch oven though :^)
[04:04:01] <xlefay> See ;-)
[04:04:48] <MrBluze> nothing smells as bad as a well fermented dutch oven
[04:05:18] <xlefay> On another note, Belgium's language & it's somewhat used in Africa.. but honestly, they're way of writing although easier to understand than German is a real mindfuck
[04:06:01] <arti> sorta like the abortion that is quebec french :P
[04:06:11] <MrBluze> hmm phpstorm is $100 US
[04:06:20] <xlefay> arti, yeah
[04:06:28] <xlefay> MrBluze, you tried it yet?
[04:06:32] <MrBluze> nah
[04:06:35] <MrBluze> not yet
[04:06:41] <MrBluze> is it linux only?
[04:06:48] <pbnjoe> I know people who have gone to France speaking Quebec-french
[04:06:51] <xlefay> multiplatform
[04:06:52] <pbnjoe> they were completely ignored
[04:07:02] <xlefay> pbnjoe, LOL
[04:07:06] <arti> lol
[04:07:17] <MrBluze> ok
[04:07:20] <arti> well, you ever had obnoxious out of towners come in? you know what its like
[04:07:55] <arti> phpstorm looks like they've taken a page out of the sublime edit theme book
[04:08:24] <xlefay> arti, it's still quite different. I used to prefer the lighttheme, but the theme they're displaying is quite nice as well
[04:08:35] <xlefay> _they_ do have the Monkai theme ready for usage though ;-)
[04:08:47] <xlefay> colorscheme*
[04:09:16] <MrBluze> i give phpstorm a go i think
[04:09:30] <MrBluze> eclipse doesnt have a php release now.. i think even back then i had to find a community version
[04:09:46] <arti> but open source guyz!
[04:09:51] * arti hides
[04:09:52] <MrBluze> i know
[04:09:57] <MrBluze> i want open source actually
[04:10:05] <MrBluze> cheaper in the long run .. and sometimes better support
[04:10:15] <xlefay> Open source is nice, but phpstorm rocks enough for me to prefer it over other alternatives
[04:10:27] * arti hasn't really given it a shake
[04:10:37] <arti> tried nusphere
[04:10:39] <arti> it was alright
[04:10:40] <MrBluze> pdt .. hmm
[04:10:53] <xlefay> I do dislike that they have a "open source" version free to download for Pycharm and such but not for phpstorm
[04:11:15] <xlefay> I suppose they would lose a lot more money that way
[04:11:32] <MrBluze> php is used to make money
[04:11:36] <MrBluze> thats the difference
[04:11:39] <xlefay> So is Python ;-)
[04:11:42] <MrBluze> python is used to just get by
[04:11:42] * arti makes money with php
[04:11:52] <arti> phthon is dying :P
[04:11:56] <xlefay> err, MrBluze that isn't true
[04:12:01] <MrBluze> not in the same way xlefay ... php is the entire business for many
[04:12:09] <arti> 2.7.3 = XP!
[04:12:36] <xlefay> True, but so is Python for some, but fewer, which was the reason for my comment "they would lose a lot more money" ;-)
[04:12:43] <MrBluze> i guess
[04:12:58] <MrBluze> so what language do i teach my kids
[04:13:03] * xlefay would go full Django instead of PHP if he wasn't being lazy & if there was a better market for it..
[04:13:05] <arti> english :D
[04:13:06] <crutchy> maths
[04:13:07] <MrBluze> im tempted just to teach them c++
[04:13:14] <xlefay> I'd go with Dutch, it's perfect.
[04:13:17] <arti> hahaha
[04:13:32] <MrBluze> my kids are already multilingual
[04:13:36] <crutchy> maths is the universal language :-P
[04:13:46] <MrBluze> lol it is, crutchy
[04:13:52] <arti> xlefay https://www.youtube.com
[04:13:56] <xlefay> MrBluze, aah, so you thought them Dutch then, good guy ;-)
[04:14:05] * MrBluze laughs
[04:14:14] <xlefay> Honestly, what's with the hate on Dutch people? ;-)
[04:14:21] * arti points to south africa
[04:14:27] <MrBluze> it sounds like dutch when we are eating hot potatoes and they speak at the table
[04:14:35] <crutchy> dutch people are cool... well i only know of one :-P
[04:14:36] <xlefay> heh
[04:14:39] <crutchy> he's pretty cool though
[04:14:42] <xlefay> MrBluze, that's bullocks!
[04:14:45] <MrBluze> ;)
[04:14:51] <arti> crutchy: is it van helsing :P
[04:15:09] <crutchy> nah he's a necrophiliac
[04:15:09] <xlefay> LOL
[04:15:34] <arti> "will you fuck me?" her: "over my dead body!" *silence*
[04:15:34] <xlefay> that youtube was awesome
[04:15:41] * SpallsHurgenson perks up, "Did somebody mention necrophilia?"
[04:15:45] <xlefay> woa, crutchy you know some weird people ;-)
[04:15:48] <MrBluze> open soure project license is free
[04:15:54] <arti> SpallsHurgenson: lie back and crack open a cold one?
[04:15:57] <MrBluze> so if i open source what i do for this project.. it's free?
[04:15:59] -!- ethanol-fueled [ethanol-fueled!~446fd544@mj91-449-541-46.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #Soylent
[04:16:02] <xlefay> MrBluze, true
[04:16:14] <crutchy> lol "crack open a cold one" when talking about dead bodies
[04:16:23] <arti> what i did there, crutchy saw it.
[04:16:40] <arti> MrBluze: they've got a powerful function to determine intent
[04:16:55] <MrBluze> arti: explain
[04:17:05] <ethanol-fueled> crutchy: Why was Versace buried face-down?
[04:17:08] <crutchy> arti: i could take it so much farther but this is the family channel :-P
[04:17:10] <arti> i honestly don't know how they do it :P
[04:17:14] <MrBluze> if intent() == "honorable"
[04:17:19] <arti> hahahaha
[04:17:26] <crutchy> lol i have no idea re versace
[04:17:27] <ethanol-fueled> 'cuz his friends wanted to stop by for a "cold one"
[04:17:36] <arti> hey ethanol-fueled
[04:17:41] <ethanol-fueled> sup niggaz
[04:17:46] <arti> man i've got some full melt that'll blow your mind
[04:17:55] <MrBluze> hey alcohol buddie
[04:18:07] <MrBluze> the man with the hydroxy group
[04:18:19] <crutchy> how's that first class polyester girl goin?
[04:18:25] <crutchy> :-P
[04:18:37] <MrBluze> phenobarbiedoll?
[04:18:48] <ethanol-fueled> crutchy: using an Elmer's glue stick around it makes it feel so real.
[04:18:50] <arti> just start talking php yo
[04:18:51] <ethanol-fueled> HAHAHAHHAHA
[04:18:54] <crutchy> hey if she's hot
[04:19:05] <ethanol-fueled> php? suckmydick?
[04:19:08] <ethanol-fueled> ???
[04:19:10] <arti> hahaha
[04:19:15] <crutchy> phap
[04:19:21] <arti> smear
[04:19:41] <MrBluze> php smear
[04:19:50] <MrBluze> tears and smears
[04:20:00] <ethanol-fueled> genius joke, bluze, but benzos are for fuckheads.
[04:20:03] <arti> lol, buddy of mine is stuck copying stuff, apparently the network is routed hilariously bad so it goes in and out several times.
[04:20:21] <crutchy> going in and out is ok
[04:20:36] <crutchy> it's when you get stuck that's a problem
[04:20:43] <MrBluze> phenobarbitone is not a benzo
[04:20:45] <arti> crutchy: just do your aids chant
[04:20:50] <MrBluze> it's thenol
[04:20:56] <arti> MrBluze++
[04:20:56] <deadbeef> karma - mrbluze: 12
[04:21:00] <MrBluze> thenol ester i think ?
[04:21:08] <crutchy> "ommmm globals ommmm"
[04:21:32] <MrBluze> back in a bit.. work again
[04:21:33] <arti> maybe that's what happens after hours
[04:21:41] <arti> mrbluze: more fiber dude
[04:21:48] <crutchy> cya mrbluze
[04:21:56] <Bytram> anyone have editor privs here?
[04:22:04] <arti> i think xlefay does
[04:22:06] <xlefay> I do
[04:22:07] <crutchy> nah 'm just a troll
[04:22:17] <ethanol-fueled> I'm just a troll also
[04:22:24] <Bytram> current story "The Affect Of A Name" should be "The Effect Of A Name"
[04:22:30] <crutchy> lol
[04:22:35] <crutchy> yeah
[04:22:51] <crutchy> but leave it cos all the spelling nazis will have something to comment on :-P
[04:23:04] <ethanol-fueled> Bluze: chemisty-related: https://www.youtube.com
[04:23:10] <Bytram> it's a tricky one to explain, but I can recognize it immediately.
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[04:23:37] <crutchy> affect=something you do,effect=something you see
[04:23:49] <xlefay> updated.. it'll take a bit before slash pushes it through
[04:24:12] <Bytram> muchos gracios, mein herr!
[04:24:16] <arti> the winding colon of the /. publishing process
[04:24:21] <arti> -.
[04:24:23] <arti> force of habit
[04:24:28] <Bytram> arti: LOL
[04:24:38] <Bytram> et's leave the nun's out of this
[04:25:26] <xlefay> Graag gedaan ;-)
[04:25:48] <crutchy> blag'oh fagglenag
[04:26:28] -!- SirFinkus has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[04:26:48] <arti> crutchy: https://www.youtube.com
[04:28:09] -!- SirFinku_ has quit [Client Quit]
[04:29:01] <Bytram> found a great fortune at the bottom of the "Affect" story:
[04:29:01] <Bytram> "In the face of entropy and nothingness, you kind of have to pretend it's not there if you want to keep writing good code." -- Karl Lehenbauer
[04:29:17] <ethanol-fueled> Fuck that, https://www.youtube.com
[04:29:43] <arti> nsfw: eth, this is for you https://efukt.com
[04:30:54] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - The Effect Of A Name - http://sylnt.us - call-me-what-you-will
[04:32:06] <crutchy> bytram... i don't get that quote
[04:33:03] <Bytram> if you want to keep writing good code, and when starting from nothing, you kind of have to pretend that there is no entropy
[04:34:16] <Bytram> does that help>
[04:34:18] <Bytram> does that help?
[04:35:04] <crutchy> pretty hard to get entropy from nothing
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[04:37:53] <ethanol-fueled> we need more niggers
[04:37:59] <ethanol-fueled> Blacks.
[04:38:06] * arti assumed more bodies in here
[04:38:26] <arti> ethanol-fueled: perhaps you can get some visa job people from the ivory coast?
[04:38:47] <ethanol-fueled> arti: visas make me furious.
[04:39:05] <arti> its all about the AMEX yo
[04:40:10] <ethanol-fueled> I work within an international industry , from Nigeria to the Arctic, and those who use tools have no idea how to actually use them.
[04:40:29] <Bytram> crutchy: start with nothing, write some code, entropy eats at it. Try to write more code, and entroy eats at THAT, too. Ugh! Too much! Delete everything and start over. Ooops!
[04:41:42] <crutchy> that's kinda why i like reinventing wheels
[04:41:49] <Bytram> hey all, it's bedtime for bonzo.
[04:41:56] <xlefay> Cause blocky ones are far better!
[04:41:59] <Bytram> g'night everyone!
[04:42:03] <xlefay> g'night Bytram ;)
[04:42:09] <crutchy> cya marty
[04:42:11] <crutchy> night
[04:42:46] Bytram is now known as Bytram|away
[04:42:58] <xlefay> crutchy, I can't actually imagine no-one doing the same at times :P
[04:43:22] <ethanol-fueled> Let's Blow This Town: https://www.youtube.com
[04:44:07] <crutchy> as much as 3rd party frameworks can make coding easier, you also suck in all the entropy of that code
[04:44:31] <xlefay> There's more to frameworks then just having the tools available, there's also durability.
[04:44:47] <crutchy> maybe
[04:45:05] <xlefay> For instance, there are *so many* people who can work easily with Zend Framework, hiring someone that specializes in it, it easy. So that's a bonus (same goes with Laravel, CodeIgniter, and so on)
[04:45:45] <crutchy> but then again just because its 3rd party doesn't automagically make it more durable than a simpler alternative that i write myself
[04:46:02] <crutchy> frameworks are often written to cover many uses
[04:46:04] <xlefay> crutchy, no it doesn't, but it's part of durability
[04:46:41] <xlefay> e.g. rolling your own will probably last a good while, but what if you leave and they have to hire someone else to do bug fixes, create now features?
[04:46:54] <crutchy> i was prolly thinking more of the entropy thing
[04:46:58] <ethanol-fueled> II'm going to get more drunk and troll the fuck out of all of you.
[04:47:12] <ethanol-fueled> good night, niggas.
[04:47:18] <xlefay> crutchy, yeah :P
[04:47:24] <xlefay> I'm just on the defend frameworks boat!
[04:47:35] <crutchy> lol i'm yet to experience the alternative ethanol :-P
[04:47:50] <crutchy> lol frameworks are ok
[04:47:51] <MrBluze> xlefay: i reckon i'll pay the subscription actually
[04:48:00] <MrBluze> what the heck etc
[04:48:05] <xlefay> MrBluze, well, try it out first; if you like it, buy it
[04:48:07] <arti> let me know how it works out for you
[04:48:08] <crutchy> my programs are prolly much simpler than yours
[04:48:10] <MrBluze> yeah after a month
[04:48:16] <MrBluze> i can probably get the first project finished within that time
[04:48:35] <xlefay> phpstorm helps you finish your stuff much and much sooner
[04:48:46] <ethanol-fueled> Suck my fucking dick!
[04:48:53] <xlefay> (once you get the hang of the short keys, etc.. in other words, when you start using it effectively)
[04:49:09] <crutchy> don't get caught by "simply just"
[04:49:17] <crutchy> there's no such thing
[04:49:19] -!- ethanol-fueled has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[04:49:27] * MrBluze gets a hoover and gives it to ethanol-fuelled .. suck it yourself
[04:49:33] <crutchy> lol
[04:49:39] <crutchy> officer doofry
[04:49:45] <crutchy> s/fry/fy/
[04:49:45] <SedBot> <crutchy> officer doofy
[04:49:52] <xlefay> crutchy, things are only simple in our minds ;-)
[04:50:09] <MrBluze> ideas are simple
[04:50:11] <MrBluze> solutions not so
[04:50:12] <xlefay> e.g. we think shitting is simple but does anyone here really now how complex the action is? (don't answer, it's just an example!)
[04:50:16] -!- Bytram|away has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[04:50:23] <MrBluze> xlefay: i won't answer
[04:50:24] <crutchy> lol
[04:50:37] <MrBluze> if you're not part of the solution, you must be part of the precipitate
[04:50:46] <xlefay> eek MrBluze !
[04:51:11] <MrBluze> there are floaters, sinkers, smearers and spreaders
[04:51:13] <xlefay> If you're not part of the solution, you mustn't be pushing harder?
[04:51:14] <crutchy> mrbluze you must be talking about crapd
[04:51:48] <crutchy> /etc/init.d/crapd start
[04:51:54] <xlefay> crutchy, I wouldn't be surprised if there's actually a daemon that's called that way
[04:52:10] <MrBluze> http://ts1.mm.bing.net
[04:52:24] <crutchy> /etc/init.d/crapd push
[04:52:32] <crutchy> if there is a blockage :-P
[04:52:35] <xlefay> LOL
[04:52:40] <xlefay> crutchy++ ;-)
[04:52:40] <deadbeef> karma - crutchy: 47
[04:53:02] <MrBluze> sudo /etc/init/crapd flush
[04:53:02] <crutchy> hmm would be funny if there was a git alternative called crapd
[04:53:08] <xlefay> aah, just fixed the nick-completion order.. much better
[04:53:10] <MrBluze> sudo /etc/init/crapd flush -v -f
[04:53:17] <xlefay> MrBluze, too verbose!!!!
[04:53:23] <MrBluze> and forced
[04:53:26] <arti> hahaha
[04:53:36] <arti> --push
[04:53:49] <xlefay> $ crapd init
[04:53:57] <crutchy> lmao!
[04:54:01] <arti> i hate when a cron job goes off like that
[04:54:10] <MrBluze> $ crapd (C)1986 by Bill Gates
[04:54:11] <xlefay> $ crapd add . && crapd commit -m "Initializing!" .. and so forth
[04:54:19] <xlefay> MrBluze, eek please no!
[04:54:20] <crutchy> /bin/crapd init
[04:54:32] <xlefay> I don't want my craps to have bluescreens and hang in the middle of crapping!
[04:54:33] <MrBluze> $ crapd --status
[04:54:56] <MrBluze> bluescreens are when you strain too hard and pass out
[04:54:57] <crutchy> crapd --dump
[04:55:01] <xlefay> rofl
[04:55:06] <MrBluze> crapd --purge
[04:55:15] <MrBluze> ** run! **
[04:55:16] <xlefay> the git/crapd analogy actually kinda works..
[04:55:20] <crutchy> lol
[04:55:24] <crutchy> ew mrbluze
[04:55:39] <xlefay> add; commit; push;
[04:55:44] <arti> xlefay, do i smell some illustrations coming along?
[04:55:45] <MrBluze> and after that
[04:55:47] <xlefay> let's just forgo the rolling back functionalities
[04:55:48] <MrBluze> soylentd --wipe
[04:55:54] <arti> infocrapics?
[04:55:58] <xlefay> rofl!
[04:55:58] <crutchy> crapd pull
[04:56:01] <crutchy> ^not good
[04:56:09] <xlefay> Indeed, that wouldn't be good
[04:56:09] <MrBluze> lol what must u never say in a gay bar?
[04:56:17] <arti> may i push in your stool?
[04:56:18] <MrBluze> "hello sir, do you mind if i push in your stool for you?"
[04:56:36] <arti> they're not bad places to take your gf
[04:56:40] <xlefay> eh, I guess you guys have experience in such establishments then.
[04:56:47] <xlefay> arti, hmm, I can imagine
[04:56:52] <MrBluze> that's what soylent reminds me of .. sorbent
[04:56:57] <arti> lots of ass grabbing occurs though
[04:57:00] <xlefay> MrBluze, 'absorbent'? :)
[04:57:02] <MrBluze> wipe your ass with soylent extra strong but soft
[04:57:08] <crutchy> crapd -P input drop
[04:57:13] <xlefay> LOL
[04:57:25] <MrBluze> that's why we need a new name *sigh*
[04:57:40] <arti> hhah
[04:57:57] <crutchy> crapd -P output accept
[04:58:04] <crutchy> no pushing in stools for crapd
[04:58:07] <MrBluze> sorbent = brand of toilet paper in oz
[04:58:08] <xlefay> crapd -t out
[04:58:12] <xlefay> -f*
[04:58:25] <xlefay> eek, that one was _to_ dirty, disregard!
[04:58:38] <crutchy> lol
[04:58:45] <xlefay> MrBluze, I can't wait till this name goes
[04:58:54] <xlefay> assuming... people vote to make it go
[04:59:01] <arti> hahaha
[04:59:10] <arti> Soylent, helps make it go!
[04:59:20] <arti> LET THE NEWS FLOW
[04:59:33] * xlefay wonders if newsflow.com is available
[04:59:33] <crutchy> hmm crapd.org
[04:59:40] <xlefay> EEEK
[04:59:47] <xlefay> Unbelievable...
[05:00:00] <MrBluze> brb
[05:00:05] <MrBluze> newsdump
[05:00:21] <arti> newsdump!
[05:00:24] <crutchy> lol holy crapd... it's available... all tld's
[05:00:28] <crutchy> crapd.org
[05:00:29] <arti> get it
[05:00:31] <crutchy> crapd.com
[05:00:33] <arti> that's hilarious
[05:00:35] <crutchy> loll
[05:00:43] <crutchy> pretyt surprising
[05:01:07] <arti> it always is
[05:01:11] <xlefay> newsslurp
[05:01:53] <crutchy> newsslurp... for all the moochers
[05:01:56] <crutchy> :-P
[05:02:02] <xlefay> rofl
[05:04:04] <crutchy> crapd.org ...take your daily news dump
[05:05:01] <crutchy> dammit i need to get my laptop out to do any access database queries :-(
[05:05:19] -!- Dopefish_mobile has quit [Quit: Bye]
[05:05:27] <xlefay> Install Windows, it makes dealing with Access a whole lot easier :P
[05:05:38] <arti> Access
[05:05:43] <arti> what a brilliant piece of software
[05:06:13] <arti> "we sell them everything, painting yourself into a corner has never been easier, or this accessible!"
[05:06:30] <crutchy> it's good until it's not
[05:07:28] <xlefay> I'm fairly sure, that goes for all of M$ corp :)
[05:08:40] <xlefay> I'm surprised Kobach hasn't shown up yet
[05:08:43] <crutchy> then when it stops being good it becomes crapd
[05:11:18] <Konomi> crapd the only daemon you will ever need
[05:11:25] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - The NSA Exploited Heartbleed for Years - http://sylnt.us - Take-another-little-piece-of-my-heart-now,-baby
[05:11:32] <arti> heh
[05:11:40] <Konomi> ._.
[05:11:51] <Konomi> but mah secrets
[05:11:58] <arti> you mean OUR secrets
[05:12:11] <arti> looks like they're just teching up
[05:12:14] <Konomi> no my $secrets = "shoo";
[05:12:26] <arti> no rot13?
[05:12:35] <xlefay> That title is misleading, the original one is: "NSA Said to Exploit Heartbleed Bug for Intelligence for Years"
[05:13:04] <arti> how about: People using tools available to them, story at 11?
[05:13:26] <poutine> FYI Not only has the NSA admitted to it, they have actively denied it
[05:13:33] <poutine> NSA not admitted
[05:13:34] <poutine> I meant
[05:13:42] <arti> whatever they say they're not to be trusted
[05:13:54] <poutine> No, but that doesn't mean you write sensationalist and misleading titles
[05:14:02] <arti> yes-huh!
[05:14:16] <poutine> this is literally 2 sources only known to bloomberg telling bloomberg that they exploited it
[05:14:16] <arti> you have to, for controversy
[05:14:19] <xlefay> I'm with poutine on this one, that title just spreads FUD
[05:14:24] <Konomi> that's like trusting the cookie monster didn't go into your cookie jar
[05:14:27] <arti> for example, if you don't actively like something, you hate it
[05:14:54] <arti> if you didn't win the lotto today, its because hate!
[05:14:58] <xlefay> Konomi, I won't admit nor deny that I took them cookies..
[05:15:09] <arti> how about
[05:15:17] <arti> Taking cookies is against policy and is highly illegal
[05:16:24] <xlefay> It would have been more interesting if someone had first checked the NSA, CIA, etc. websites if they suffered from heartbleed, that could have meant they kept up appearances, but it could also have meant, they didn't have a clue.
[05:16:49] <xlefay> (before, say, releasing the bug)
[05:16:53] <arti> its all contractors anyway right?
[05:17:02] <arti> "yeah, that was $minion_agency's fault"
[05:18:07] <xlefay> Yes, let's attribute every major fail to being NSA's fault. Doesn't sound like a good policy to me tbh.
[05:18:15] <arti> i agree
[05:18:18] <xlefay> It'll get old fast too
[05:18:29] <arti> lucky we've got short attention spans
[05:18:37] <Konomi> nsa spilt the milk
[05:18:38] <Konomi> wasn't me
[05:18:46] <arti> crisis.sh
[05:19:04] <xlefay> Spreading these articles without proof will just cause people to not believe serious leaks that *may* have been confirmed just my 2 cents on it
[05:21:39] <crutchy> starting my windows laptop after a couple of months of not using it
[05:24:18] <xlefay> bbiab
[05:30:46] <MrBluze> back
[05:31:06] <MrBluze> hmm
[05:31:16] <MrBluze> wrt: heartbleed
[05:32:38] <MrBluze> nsa is being exposed as being all knowing and all powerful
[05:33:11] <MrBluze> however, snowden's revalations did not refer to an openssl vulnerability
[05:33:19] <MrBluze> which is interesting
[05:34:00] <MrBluze> ... the problem is that these agencies try to portray the opposite of their real situation
[05:34:10] <MrBluze> weak organizations want to appear powerful, and powerful - weak
[05:39:16] -!- jones has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[05:43:46] <crutchy> mrbluze: i reckon i might know how to make a php program that can run a perl module (thanks to advice from xlefay), but not the other way around
[05:44:15] <MrBluze> crutchy: we really only need to interact with the db
[05:44:29] <crutchy> can do that in a separate module too
[05:44:35] <MrBluze> yes
[05:44:52] <crutchy> using the proc_open function
[05:45:09] <crutchy> like i did in my irc bot
[05:45:20] <crutchy> aka password devulger :-P
[05:45:46] <MrBluze> password devulger ??
[05:45:52] <MrBluze> divulger
[05:45:59] * chromas whistles nonchalantly
[05:45:59] <crutchy> yeah
[05:46:04] <crutchy> however its spelt
[05:46:07] <crutchy> hahahaha
[05:46:16] <crutchy> yeah chromas *points to you* :-P
[05:46:37] <arti> devulger turns dirty passwords into clean ones
[05:46:46] <crutchy> i'm sure ncommander wouldn't be stupid enough to leave password files laying around in cleartext
[05:46:50] <crutchy> lol
[05:46:54] <arti> either that or they're troll passwords
[05:46:58] <arti> "12345"
[05:47:01] <arti> :O
[05:47:01] <crutchy> lol
[05:47:04] <NCommander> crutchy, what sort of passwords?
[05:47:07] <crutchy> they were kinda like that
[05:47:23] <crutchy> i think one was "crap" and the other was "test"
[05:47:32] <crutchy> just irc nick registration passwords
[05:47:40] <crutchy> i changed them but nothing serious
[05:47:43] <NCommander> crutchy, I *think* Athene hashs, but I'm not involved w/ that
[05:47:43] <MrBluze> ah ok
[05:47:45] <arti> irc is uber secure
[05:48:03] <NCommander> Slash uses MD5, though a bug prevented salting from working (since fixed)
[05:48:06] <crutchy> not if you shell'erize it like i did :-P
[05:48:08] <NCommander> (though not retroactively)
[05:48:42] <crutchy> it was pretty fun to see how it worked though eh chromas
[05:48:50] <crutchy> never had that much fun with a bot before
[05:50:12] <crutchy> i should put that script on github
[05:50:12] <chromas> Yep. It's like a command line for ob/gyns
[05:50:17] <crutchy> lol
[05:50:45] <crutchy> it's a bit messy, but it kinda works
[05:50:58] <crutchy> haven't got stdin worked out yet
[05:52:11] * SpallsHurgenson suddenly remembers something
[05:52:29] <SpallsHurgenson> Did I miss out on poultine's "big revelation" that he promised a few days back?
[05:53:07] <MrBluze> he's removing his trenchcoat?
[05:53:35] <SpallsHurgenson> I think he was going to reveal his Secret Identity or something along those lines, and I'm bored enough to care now :)
[05:55:46] <crutchy> is poutine really barack obama?
[05:56:10] <SpallsHurgenson> that would explain much
[05:56:52] <MrBluze> whatever he says is not believable
[05:56:58] <MrBluze> cause it's unprovable
[05:57:33] <SpallsHurgenson> yes, but his trolls are so pathetic as to almost be amusing, if you are drunk enough... and I'm quickly approaching that point!
[05:58:04] <MrBluze> ok then
[06:00:32] MrBluze is now known as MrBluze|afk
[06:01:16] <crutchy> https://github.com if anyone is interested... not to be used lightly though :-P
[06:01:59] <crutchy> ^fun for running cowsay and apt-get moo with :-)
[06:09:34] <NCommander> If anyone here is feeling nogastic
[06:09:43] <NCommander> I fixed the stock metamod code on dev
[06:09:44] <NCommander> https://dev.soylentnews.org
[06:12:52] <arti> metamod, sounds like a mega man boss
[06:13:12] <arti> part machine, parta cephalopod
[06:15:15] <crutchy> prolly don't absolutely need metamod yet, but would be handy to have ready for when the spamtrain arrives
[06:16:36] <SpallsHurgenson> but then how will I learn about the benefits of hosts files?
[06:17:08] <crutchy> haven't seen any apk users yet
[06:17:20] * crutchy is surprised
[06:17:29] <arti> that dude is alright
[06:17:40] <crutchy> he we got along ok
[06:17:47] * arti would let him crash on my sofa
[06:18:03] <arti> almost called it a night earlier
[06:18:03] <crutchy> lol dunno if i would go that far :-P
[06:18:11] <arti> beer was making me sleepy
[06:19:06] <crutchy> i fell asleep at my desk last night and my daughter (5yo) fell backwards off my lap
[06:19:16] <crutchy> bad daddy
[06:19:20] <arti> baddy.
[06:19:57] <crutchy> something fell off the desk... so it was only natural that she followed it :-P
[06:20:13] -!- Popeidol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[06:20:33] <crutchy> what time it there?
[06:20:53] <arti> 21:20
[06:21:05] <arti> fridaaaaay
[06:21:21] <crutchy> 2.20pm here
[06:21:28] <arti> nice, how about some lotto numbers
[06:21:40] <crutchy> lol
[06:22:05] <crutchy> you better watch out for those langoliers :-P
[06:22:05] -!- Popeidol [Popeidol!~matt@741-73-72-7.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #Soylent
[06:24:01] * crutchy imagines folks in alaska always have to put up with the crunching sounds of langoliers since they're permanently relegated to the arse end of the day
[06:24:08] <arti> lol
[06:24:20] <arti> oh that's the one where you hear the sound
[06:24:39] <crutchy> stephen king
[06:52:24] <poutine> arti, do you play any lotteries?
[06:52:30] <arti> nope
[06:52:37] <arti> well besides buying from food trucks
[06:52:43] <arti> prize: faucet ass
[06:53:29] <poutine> I do not understand the food truck obsession, do you really think they're sanitary?
[06:54:25] <arti> fuck no
[06:54:39] <arti> what i do understand is these people own their own businesses
[06:54:49] <arti> and bad news will ruin you
[06:55:23] <arti> i've actually had more food poisoning at sit down restaurants
[06:55:57] <arti> i eat at home most of the time, it's cheaper, better quality food, and i know who has handled it
[07:00:09] * SpallsHurgenson knows who has handled the food he cooks for himself too, which is why he prefers to eat out
[07:00:30] <SpallsHurgenson> I mean, I KNOW where my hands have been; I only SUSPECT where the hands of chefs in restaurants have gone :)
[07:00:44] <arti> :|
[07:01:03] <arti> nothing says pride like minimum wage!
[07:05:52] MrBluze|afk is now known as MrBluze
[07:06:54] MrBluze is now known as Ezulb
[07:08:08] -!- SpallsHurgenson has quit [Quit: I have big feet]
[07:12:10] <NCommander> crutchy, I'm seeing enough bad mods to make me eh
[07:12:35] <NCommander> I got a good suggestion that I'm going to implement soonish is to "tint" the CSS of a comment coming in based on score
[07:12:36] <arti> bad, like down votes
[07:12:41] <NCommander> arti, yeah
[07:13:19] <NCommander> Right now, the problem isnt *horrendous*, but once a comment goes down, it rarely goes up
[07:13:36] * NCommander is finding the mod-rework is going to be amuch much bigger headache than I wanted
[07:14:09] * NCommander is quite pleased though dynamic commenting is working
[07:15:03] * arti nods
[07:15:12] <arti> what about enabling only upvotes?
[07:15:28] <NCommander> poutine, at least in Portland, OR, food trucks are regularly audited by the board of health and have to meet all the same requirements as sitdown restaurants; I've seen them closed over that. YMMV if that's good enough, but at least its a consistent standard
[07:15:28] <Ezulb> then the scum will rise to the top
[07:15:44] <NCommander> Metamod is to prevent rampant sockpuppeting
[07:15:52] <NCommander> Right now, we're being saved by IPv4
[07:15:56] <arti> heh
[07:16:05] <NCommander> Since we can prevent /24 from selfmodding their own comments easily
[07:16:18] <NCommander> IPv6 privacy extensions make life very difficult in that regard
[07:16:49] <Ezulb> i think it's not going to be a big problem once membership grows further
[07:17:10] <NCommander> Ezulb, /. suggests otherwise
[07:17:11] <Ezulb> takes a lot of effort to go around and skew your own comments up
[07:17:20] <NCommander> Things *really* took a shit when metamod went away
[07:17:28] <xlefay> I vote we pay the NSA for access to their DBs, maybe they have an API ;-)
[07:17:30] <NCommander> (it came back, but its really eh)
[07:17:49] <Ezulb> metamod is a good idea
[07:17:52] * NCommander notes fixing IPv6 support in slash is semi-easy, but then how should cookies by bound
[07:18:02] <NCommander> Do you bind a cookie to the /64, the /54 or the /46
[07:18:10] <NCommander> Or do we just nuke that feature
[07:18:17] <Ezulb> but metamod causes more abuse than mod abuse imho .. the way it works on slashdot
[07:18:34] <Ezulb> its anti-controversy
[07:18:36] <xlefay> eh, let the user choose or just nuke it
[07:18:39] <NCommander> Ezulb, the lack of transparency made a bad situation worse, and I suspect very few people ever M2ed
[07:18:41] * xlefay notes he'd rather have the choice.
[07:18:47] <NCommander> xlefay, I'm sorely tempted to nuke it.
[07:19:02] <NCommander> I need to rearchitect the subid system to work properly
[07:19:14] <NCommander> It needs to save the subid of the /46, /54, and 64
[07:19:16] <xlefay> I'd much rather have the choice "bind this session to my IP" and if IPv6, ask whether /64, etc.
[07:19:20] <NCommander> vs. just the /24
[07:19:41] <Ezulb> ok /. if i up-modded someone for being contrarian and interesting, i got metamoderated to oblivion nad didnt get mod points for another few weeks
[07:19:45] <xlefay> You *could* say, /64 is the /24 in IPv6
[07:20:05] <Ezulb> which made me think the site was run by employees of some org
[07:20:09] <NCommander> xlefay, I get random /64s every time I disconnect/reconnect from my ISP
[07:20:16] <xlefay> eh, whatnow?
[07:20:28] <xlefay> Do you have a /56 or a /48?
[07:20:41] <NCommander> xlefay, I'm not sure how TWC does it
[07:20:54] <NCommander> Ezulb, so I'm partially fixing that with a change in how M2 works
[07:21:04] <NCommander> M2 will work on a +/- system for voting on downmods
[07:21:08] <xlefay> It'd be weird if you were to get another /64 every time you connect..
[07:21:08] <NCommander> For upmods, its 0/+
[07:21:17] <NCommander> Which means you are never dinged for upmodding
[07:21:26] <NCommander> Good upmods though will earn you more M1 points
[07:21:27] <Ezulb> ok
[07:21:36] <Ezulb> metamod should be simply "appropriate / inappropriate"
[07:21:46] <Ezulb> not this "how would YOU moderate this comment etc"
[07:21:49] <NCommander> Actually, I'm thining of changing it to show an entire set of comments
[07:21:59] <NCommander> Then asking people to moderate as though they had unlimited moderator points
[07:22:11] <Ezulb> oh
[07:22:21] <NCommander> If the moderation applied is during M2 is +, and the original moderation is +, then M2upgood
[07:22:26] <Ezulb> as long as it's very low effort for the user
[07:22:42] <NCommander> Which is why I was against implementing M2 for a long time
[07:22:43] <Ezulb> everything should be red-carpet for the user
[07:22:56] <NCommander> I need to provide more incentive to M2
[07:23:27] <Ezulb> incentive .. difficult - perhaps karma
[07:23:31] * NCommander suspects he's going to just do more basic M1 work this cycle, and perhaps work out the karma rework
[07:23:36] <NCommander> Then metamod will come in a few months
[07:23:40] <Ezulb> limit karma to 40 and the last 10 is metamoderation
[07:23:47] <NCommander> Ezulb, actually, Im going to split
[07:23:51] <NCommander> Into an overall XP system
[07:23:56] <NCommander> And a "recentkarma" value
[07:24:10] <NCommander> So if someone decides to become a shit, it doesn't take much to loose perks
[07:24:11] <Ezulb> XP ? ... stamina, charisma, magic?
[07:24:21] <NCommander> Ezulb, thinking like a gamification system
[07:24:30] * NCommander hasn't sit down to work it out more indepth
[07:24:34] <Ezulb> give high karma 20 minutes preview
[07:24:48] <NCommander> Ezulb, I was just going to give them subscriber status
[07:24:54] <Ezulb> oh
[07:25:11] <NCommander> But High Karma (and I mean *really* high karma, like 200-ish) would get to post at +3 or perhaps even +4.
[07:25:15] <Ezulb> maybe doing good work on the website might earn points in muds and so on
[07:25:35] <Ezulb> only if that high karma is from consistently +5 posts
[07:25:41] <NCommander> The thought here is that people with a consisent posting history tend to generate more more interesting posts
[07:25:58] <Ezulb> well its quality vs quantity in that regard
[07:26:12] <NCommander> I suspect this system going to get revised several times in its existence
[07:26:25] <Ezulb> .. it has to change as the site grows
[07:26:31] <Ezulb> as u well know
[07:26:35] * NCommander notes it hasn't changed on slash since 1999 :-)
[07:26:54] <Ezulb> that's not necessarily good
[07:26:57] <NCommander> Nope
[07:27:07] <NCommander> I don't like shitting on the original /. guys
[07:27:13] <NCommander> But this was something that was done badly, and wrong
[07:27:35] <Ezulb> well a fork is a fork, and this is exactly what is supposed to happen
[07:27:39] <NCommander> Aside from the concept, I've already thrown out a LOT of CmdrTaco's moderation design
[07:27:55] <NCommander> Point expiration only remains due to technical limitation
[07:28:11] <NCommander> But killing moderate^post lifted a chilling effect
[07:28:19] <Ezulb> my points die when i change ip
[07:28:26] <NCommander> Ezulb, probably some stupid security feature
[07:28:29] <Ezulb> which is convenient actually lol
[07:28:29] <NCommander> I keep find those
[07:28:33] <NCommander> Its like fucking whack a mole
[07:28:55] <xlefay> "Whack a bug" that actually sounds fairly exciting!
[07:28:56] <Ezulb> yeah the site is paranoid but i guess that's from bitter experience
[07:29:00] <NCommander> Lot of stupid shit that makes life annoying, yet a lot of really really poorly implemented SAN checks
[07:29:23] <NCommander> Ezulb, the proxy detector really got me cross
[07:29:28] <NCommander> No website should *ever* trigger an IDS
[07:29:41] <Ezulb> it tells me a lot about the people who made it
[07:29:49] <Ezulb> a LOT
[07:30:11] <xlefay> That people who write shitty code are exceptionally successful?
[07:30:18] <Ezulb> hmm.. no, about their morals
[07:30:18] <NCommander> Slash has the advantage its battle tested
[07:30:21] <NCommander> We *know* it scales
[07:30:26] <NCommander> Like seriously scales
[07:30:48] <NCommander> (there's a panic mode to disable almost all logging, and to switch the site to batch operation to cope with extremely high load)
[07:30:55] <NCommander> (we've never gotten close to having to use it)
[07:31:11] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Internet Ad Revenue Surpasses Broadcast Television - http://sylnt.us - billboards-on-dinosaurs
[07:31:29] <xlefay> billboards-on-dinosaurs? eh, what?
[07:31:40] <NCommander> "writing-taglines-is-hard"
[07:31:58] <xlefay> haven't-got-a-clue-what-that's-supposed-to-mean'
[07:31:59] * NCommander has let articles w/o if I cant think of one
[07:32:01] <Ezulb> "editors-work-better-in-pairs-than-alone"
[07:32:10] <NCommander> Ezulb, I need to get that check enforced
[07:32:19] <NCommander> Ezulb, that being said, they do a pretty good peer review board
[07:32:19] * Ezulb nods
[07:32:28] <NCommander> 85% of everything is doublesigned
[07:32:33] <NCommander> Its even nicely color coded :-)
[07:32:38] <Ezulb> i've put quite a few horses back into the paddock after they have bolted however
[07:32:46] <NCommander> Hold on, this is a case where a screenshot is worth a thousand words
[07:33:32] <Ezulb> NC we need image hosting ... just a way to host png's or something so they can be included in articles
[07:34:17] <Ezulb> is it copyright infringement to have a screenshot of a part of an article? if it's reduced resolution and contains a link to the orig article?
[07:34:21] <NCommander> Ezulb, http://staff.soylentnews.org
[07:34:42] <Ezulb> yes
[07:34:46] <NCommander> Ezulb, depends where you live. That probably qualifies as peer review
[07:34:47] <Ezulb> prevent auto-posting of articles
[07:34:47] <xlefay> Ezulb, you got IPv6 for your browser disabled?
[07:34:54] <xlefay> err, NCommander ^
[07:35:05] <Ezulb> yes
[07:35:09] <Ezulb> to prevent leakage
[07:35:11] <NCommander> xlefay, I have teredo disabled ATM, and I don't have native IPv6 addressing here
[07:35:18] <xlefay> yeah that explains it..
[07:35:19] * NCommander is in a hostel
[07:35:21] <NCommander> xlefay, ?
[07:35:37] <xlefay> staff's vhost isn't set for IPv6 yet, so all IPv6 connections to staff are redirected to sentinel
[07:35:53] <Ezulb> tor isn't ipv6
[07:35:56] <xlefay> or rather, "catched"
[07:35:57] <Ezulb> so i dont care about ipv6
[07:36:04] <NCommander> Ezulb, are you using our onion services?
[07:36:11] <Ezulb> i do use em
[07:36:14] <NCommander> sweet
[07:36:23] <Ezulb> not routinely but i will be much more in future
[07:36:27] <NCommander> We *do* need to get them in the FAQ
[07:36:39] <Ezulb> the planet is going bonkers, its so dangerous now
[07:36:58] * NCommander notes that unless all else fails, we won't block posting for tor
[07:37:11] <Ezulb> actually tor is a good one
[07:37:19] <Ezulb> it forces you to manage things smartly instead of blacklisting
[07:37:19] <NCommander> If we do get spammed to hell, we'll first block exit nodes, and require tor traffic come in from from our exit point
[07:37:34] <NCommander> If that fails, "No AC Posting" gets set on nitrogen
[07:37:38] <Ezulb> if u get spammed, u use a spambot
[07:37:54] <Ezulb> and u use human controls
[07:37:55] * NCommander notes he's somewhat tempted to implement USENET type cancelations
[07:38:11] <xlefay> So, what's wrong with just implementing a captcha or whatnot?
[07:38:29] <Ezulb> nothing, xlefay, very appropriate if it's not a google job
[07:38:30] <xlefay> Say, we use DNSBL's and whatever, a captcha is a much better way to degrade nicely
[07:38:33] <NCommander> xlefay, aside from the only non-crap CAPTCHA is re:captcha that requires you to send the remote IP?
[07:38:53] <xlefay> That's BS, there are plenty of better alternatives out there
[07:39:06] <NCommander> xlefay, for audio-accessible CAPTCHAs?
[07:39:11] <NCommander> Please educate me then
[07:39:30] <xlefay> Not sure about audio-accessible, but plenty of others - in various forms
[07:39:35] <crutchy> captcha is a pain in the arse
[07:39:39] <NCommander> crutchy, ^
[07:39:46] <Ezulb> only implement captcha if it fails a spam checker
[07:39:55] <xlefay> crutchy, thus, only as a way to degrade when the IP is questionable (or, via Tor, in case needed)
[07:39:58] <Ezulb> then it's a pain in the arse to spammers
[07:40:02] <NCommander> Ezulb, plugging the AC into SpamAssassin has been discussed
[07:40:04] <NCommander> :-)
[07:40:10] <NCommander> SpamAssassin is a fucking memory hog
[07:40:13] <crutchy> it's a bigger pain in the arse to regular users
[07:40:17] <Ezulb> it is, NCommander
[07:40:24] <xlefay> Really? It's not that bad.
[07:40:26] <NCommander> crutchy, we'd only require CAPTCHA for extremely low karma for logged in users
[07:40:32] <Ezulb> but how many posts a day? not that many
[07:40:34] <crutchy> yeah
[07:40:47] <crutchy> i'm only 19 karma :-P
[07:40:53] <NCommander> That number goes negative :-P
[07:41:03] <NCommander> But if I get SpamAssassin Spam report, force a user to solve a captcha
[07:41:04] <xlefay> I'd love to see the karma cap gone
[07:41:10] <NCommander> xlefay, its coming
[07:41:15] <NCommander> xlefay, its getting split into two values
[07:41:21] <NCommander> recent_karma/xp
[07:41:25] <xlefay> Great! :D
[07:41:26] <crutchy> 22 actually :-)
[07:41:38] <Ezulb> would be good to have someone who knows how to program learning algorithms
[07:41:39] <NCommander> The former works exactly like the current system, but is capped at 20, and will age back to zero over time
[07:41:48] <NCommander> xp just goes up :-)
[07:41:55] <Ezulb> spamassassin is trainable, which is brilliant
[07:42:05] <NCommander> I want to plug SpamAssassin right into m2
[07:42:18] <NCommander> And them have an "AutoHam" "AutoSpam" moderation type that only SA applies
[07:42:33] <NCommander> And then use the combined efforts of the site to train SA
[07:42:41] <Ezulb> yep
[07:43:41] <NCommander> Ezulb, we're also looking going full SSL by default
[07:43:55] <NCommander> We've been testing Slash with a loadbalancer, then bring up a second webhead
[07:44:13] <Ezulb> well that should be default
[07:44:23] <Ezulb> but it's a processor hog tho
[07:44:35] <NCommander> Ezulb, I *think* we can take the load
[07:44:40] <xlefay> Ezulb, that's a bit of an overstatement
[07:44:48] <xlefay> It's *not* that bad
[07:45:04] <NCommander> Ezulb, if we had to, we could terminate SSL on the loadbalancer, which is better than nothing but ...
[07:45:26] <NCommander> Ezulb, I want to get us to 100/100 on all scores on ssllabs, and perhaps even implement OSPC stapling and TACK
[07:45:35] <Ezulb> good idea
[07:46:02] * NCommander is tired but not strongly motivated to sleep
[07:46:35] <Ezulb> NCommander: pm
[07:47:33] <NCommander> ....
[07:47:38] <NCommander> What is with this trend to name people backwards
[07:47:42] * NCommander just realized who Ezulb is
[07:47:58] * NCommander is not rednammoCN
[07:50:04] <xlefay> no clue
[07:50:17] <Ezulb> lmao
[07:50:25] <crutchy> hahahaha
[07:50:28] <crutchy> :-D
[07:51:18] <crutchy> maybe he used apk's troll reversal python function :-P
[07:51:35] <NCommander> import gravity?
[07:51:37] <NCommander> er
[07:51:40] <NCommander> export gravity!
[07:52:16] <NCommander> xlefay, crutchy Ezulb : do you know about that easter egg?
[07:52:39] <crutchy> this slash has super cow powers?
[07:53:09] <NCommander> crutchy, type python in a console
[07:53:12] <NCommander> Then at the >> prompt
[07:53:16] <NCommander> "import antigravity"
[07:53:42] <xlefay> LOL
[07:53:51] <crutchy> python? that is an illegal cmd on my pyewta :-P
[07:54:12] <Ezulb> no?
[07:54:18] <Ezulb> oh
[07:54:28] <xlefay> $ python -c "import antigravity"
[07:54:29] <xlefay> x'D
[07:56:42] <NCommander> xlefay, ever try about:robots in Firefox?
[07:57:22] <xlefay> yeah
[07:57:26] <xlefay> that's an old one tho :p
[07:58:00] <crutchy> my favorite is con/con in windows 98
[07:58:10] <crutchy> though i'm not sure it was an easter egg
[07:58:36] <arti> oh that was awesome
[07:58:49] <crutchy> fuck it's raining
[07:58:54] <crutchy> rather heavily
[07:59:01] <arti> why is that bad?
[07:59:04] <crutchy> ^understatement
[07:59:14] <NCommander> Because crutchy will become soggy
[07:59:15] <crutchy> um nah cos i'm not in it :-D
[07:59:17] <NCommander> */captain obvious*
[07:59:28] <arti> do you live in a floodplain?
[07:59:31] <arti> NCommander++
[07:59:31] <deadbeef> karma - ncommander: 20
[07:59:35] <crutchy> nah
[07:59:42] <crutchy> weather is so fucked up here
[07:59:53] <arti> don't you mean down here? :^)
[08:00:07] <arti> which part are you in?
[08:00:23] <crutchy> i'm the pimple on the global arse
[08:00:35] <arti> http://imgur.com
[08:00:38] <arti> point it out
[08:01:00] <NCommander> You know
[08:01:01] <crutchy> roughly where the S in giant spiders is
[08:01:05] <crutchy> maybe just above
[08:01:09] <NCommander> a part of me is SORELY tempted to setup either an OpenTTD or Minecraft server
[08:01:21] <arti> aaah
[08:01:24] <arti> minecraft!!!!!
[08:01:35] <arti> i put that game down a year or more ago after i lost a map
[08:01:38] <crutchy> i would love to make a kind of minecraft but with phucked up physics :-P
[08:01:48] <NCommander> though if I setup minecraft I might not get any work done on this site again
[08:01:56] * NCommander used to run a fairly decent MC server
[08:02:00] <arti> true that, so make it so it has a set time you can play :P
[08:02:12] <arti> use the candy crush model
[08:02:15] <xlefay> Or, let's just integrate SN into MC!
[08:02:25] <arti> lol moderating would be weird
[08:02:33] <crutchy> oh no that would destroy my life xlefay
[08:02:34] <arti> "deep in the dark places of the site, we meet in secret"
[08:03:02] <arti> "its safe here, the walls are obsidian"
[08:04:51] <Ezulb> i need a holiday
[08:05:02] <arti> total recall?
[08:05:02] Ezulb is now known as Whatever
[08:05:32] <NCommander> I'd love that
[08:05:41] <NCommander> We could mod up using diamond blocks
[08:05:46] <NCommander> and mod down by breaking them
[08:06:29] <xlefay> rofl
[08:10:27] * NCommander would to have a MC world with a massive train system criss-crossing it
[08:10:29] <arti> this is a great idea (for tangent, what if stuff)
[08:10:42] <arti> mental exercise
[08:10:43] Whatever is now known as MrBluze|afk
[08:11:28] <NCommander> I once built a pretty decent house w/ an internal rail system using furnancecarts and lots of switches
[08:11:41] * NCommander had rolling sets of chestcarts everywhere
[08:11:47] * arti liked the old system of cart pairing for speed
[08:12:00] <arti> booster carts
[08:12:09] <NCommander> I'd have to look at how I did it
[08:12:11] <NCommander> But basically
[08:12:22] <NCommander> I had a set of chestcarts on booster tracks
[08:12:23] * arti had a few loops with logic
[08:12:27] <NCommander> If I wanted a specific chest
[08:12:36] <NCommander> Throw the lever, and the chest cart would come to wherever I sent it
[08:13:10] <arti> you ever see Patterns?
[08:13:27] <NCommander> No
[08:13:30] <arti> http://www.buildpatterns.com
[08:13:40] * NCommander notes the last time I build a decent mine, I ran track through it
[08:13:47] <NCommander> Then I'd drop a chestcart
[08:13:56] <arti> true programmer style
[08:13:58] <NCommander> Load it, and send everything back to base
[08:14:02] <NCommander> and continue
[08:14:18] <arti> your cleanup method so to speak
[08:14:35] <arti> "i run the loot collector once my local buffers are allocated"
[08:18:38] <NCommander> arti, the new redstuff looks awesome
[08:18:42] * NCommander hasn't played sicne 1.4
[08:18:46] * NCommander needs to get some rest
[08:18:50] <arti> i dropped out around 1.6?
[08:19:13] <arti> the butthurt has lessened, but i won't jump back in until i can get these teleporters working
[08:19:17] <arti> i... have iron man boots
[08:19:24] <NCommander> I'll see you guys tomorrow
[08:19:25] <NCommander> Piece
[08:19:27] <arti> i flew off... way off, over an ocean and got disoriented
[08:19:27] <NCommander> *peace
[08:19:29] <arti> laters dude
[08:19:31] * arti salutes
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[09:24:04] -!- SirFinkus [SirFinkus!~textual@l-64-313-06-125.hsd0.wa.comcast.net] has joined #Soylent
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[10:07:47] <prospectacle> Hi everyone
[10:08:36] <crutchy> hi prospectacle
[10:11:26] <prospectacle> how's it going crutchy?
[10:11:46] <crutchy> very good atm
[10:11:54] <crutchy> just had a little php win :-)
[10:11:57] <prospectacle> excellent.
[10:12:02] <crutchy> :-D
[10:12:14] <crutchy> how you been?
[10:12:21] <prospectacle> I was thinking about your php enthusiasm. I think over time, you would feel much better if you had a non-work project that you a)used yourself, and b)could work on in your spare time.
[10:12:41] <crutchy> i have my irc bot
[10:12:45] <prospectacle> Making your own job easier is good, of course. So is impressing the boss. But over time you may wish you had a little codebase all of your own
[10:12:51] <prospectacle> that's true, I forgot about that one.
[10:12:53] <prospectacle> How's it going?
[10:13:04] <crutchy> https://github.com
[10:13:21] <prospectacle> I've been good thanks. Went for a nice walk, drinking a nice mocha. About to do some php.
[10:13:22] <crutchy> i reckon there's huge scope
[10:13:33] <crutchy> i had a coffee machine coffee before
[10:13:33] <prospectacle> My project is so close to release I can taste it, but I need to get it right before I let it out there.
[10:13:44] <crutchy> lol sounds exciting :-D
[10:13:57] <crutchy> what's your project?
[10:14:01] <prospectacle> oh yeah, non stop action.
[10:14:35] <crutchy> sometimes (especially really annoying bug fixes) i get up and do one of those ace ventura air humping exercises :-P
[10:14:36] <prospectacle> My project is like a to-do list manager. It's meant to be better than pen-and-paper
[10:14:48] <crutchy> ooh sounds good
[10:15:15] <crutchy> i'm actually working on something like that for my work app. i use a spreadsheet atm but it needs to be multiuser
[10:15:16] <prospectacle> one second I'll show it to you...
[10:16:22] <prospectacle> http://webinterfacetricks.com
[10:16:42] <prospectacle> It's not ready for release yet but this is a preview.
[10:19:09] <prospectacle> Your chat bot is looking good. More clear and organised than last time I read it. (still needs comments for idiots like me who don't immediately get it :)
[10:19:09] <crutchy> mine's kinda still in development and kinda looks a bit gay but here's a preview (unfortunately not public): http://postimg.org
[10:19:30] <crutchy> cool prospectacle
[10:20:16] <crutchy> kb shortcuts are good
[10:20:27] <prospectacle> looks good, it's like a multi-user job tracker
[10:20:59] <crutchy> yeah kinda. i needed acknowledgment of receipt built into it though
[10:21:25] <prospectacle> crutchy thanks. I need to turn them into buttons so some beginners won't feel put off by having to use shortcuts. The buttons will display the shortcut code as well so you can learn.
[10:21:47] <prospectacle> crutchy. well keep at it, if it's useful on a regular basis, it will keep getting better.
[10:21:52] <crutchy> mkay. looks good though. seems really simple to use which is important, especially for a todo
[10:22:04] <prospectacle> for my one I hope other people find it useful, but if not I find it very useful myself, so other people can do what they want.
[10:22:31] <prospectacle> how would your receipt work? what does it need to do?
[10:22:31] <crutchy> it's something that i want to use myself at work so it won't be finished until i'm happy with it as a user :-P
[10:22:38] <prospectacle> yes that's the spirit
[10:22:58] <prospectacle> it's not just a good way to test software, it's also more likely you'll actually want to work on it.
[10:23:05] <prospectacle> if it's something you use yourself
[10:23:24] <crutchy> if someone gives me a job, they register the job in their tracker and relocate it to me. then it will appear in my unacknowledged items list
[10:23:54] <crutchy> then the person who allocated the job can also keep track of who has it
[10:24:08] <crutchy> in the current holder column
[10:24:10] <prospectacle> oh it looks like my public server has magic_quotes turned on which is screwing up handling of slashes. i better turn them off.
[10:24:20] <crutchy> ooh that's bad
[10:24:50] <prospectacle> yeah totally. Stupid magic quotes.
[10:24:51] <crutchy> is that the one that variable'izes get/post?
[10:25:00] <crutchy> i can't remember never used it :-P
[10:25:02] <prospectacle> crutchy, no that's register globals I think
[10:25:06] <crutchy> lol
[10:25:28] <prospectacle> magic quotes is where it automatically adds slashes to quotes in _get _post
[10:25:49] <prospectacle> it was meant as a simple security features, but it means if you handle quotes properly yourself, then it just adds extra slashes to your input.
[10:26:43] <prospectacle> crutchy. Maybe for you receipt you could have multiple people assigned to each job, and each assignee could have their own role (e.g. "past asignee", "Creator', "Current asignee" ,etc)
[10:27:13] <prospectacle> then you can see all the jobs relevant to you, but a column would show your relationship to that job, as well as who currently is assigned to it.
[10:32:31] <crutchy> sry cooking kiddy's dinner
[10:32:37] crutchy is now known as crutchy|afk
[10:35:55] <SirFinkus> ok, it'd driving me nuts and I've got to know, the dice for the /dev/random icon at the top of the screen, those actually change right?
[10:37:10] <SirFinkus> I know it'd be trivial for me to check btw
[10:37:59] <prospectacle> lol, good question
[10:38:32] <SirFinkus> I swear to god the front facing dice added up to 6 yesterday
[10:38:58] <SirFinkus> "front" being lower left
[10:39:12] <SirFinkus> I took a screenshot today, I'll check tomorrow
[10:41:35] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - 'You're Not Going to Teach a Coal Miner to Code' - http://sylnt.us - If-only-we-had-crumbling-infrastructure-in-need-of-repair.
[10:43:06] <prospectacle> SirFinkus, keep us posted
[10:43:16] <SirFinkus> I will
[10:43:26] <ar> http://dpaste.com - huh, BUYCDURL
[10:43:27] <SirFinkus> but fair warning, I'm probably crazy
[10:44:34] <prospectacle> SirFinkus, you're gathering empirical evidence in a systematic fashion. What could be saner
[10:44:57] <SirFinkus> just not caring
[10:45:08] <SirFinkus> since it affects nothing
[10:45:21] <prospectacle> Not caring is a slippery slope
[10:45:38] <SirFinkus> not when it comes to little logos on the top of soylent news
[10:46:49] <prospectacle> Maybe today you don't care about the dice, but then tomorrow, you don't care about whether the layout has changed a few pixels, and then next year there's a serial killer stalking the neighbourhood and you can't bring yourself to care because he's not in your house... yet
[10:47:29] <chromas> prospectacle++
[10:47:29] <deadbeef> karma - prospectacle: 4
[10:47:31] <SirFinkus> or worse, beta.soylentnews.org
[10:47:49] <ar> i know
[10:47:52] <prospectacle> lol
[10:47:56] <SirFinkus> I'm also trying to see if the numbers on the dice have any significance
[10:47:58] <ar> betanews would be a great name
[10:47:59] <ar> :>
[10:48:07] <SirFinkus> top die is 42 on the faces you can see all of
[10:48:11] <prospectacle> ah ha!, ok two line fix if magic quotes on a shared-host is plaguing your life and you can't set .htaccess or php.ini.....
[10:49:08] <prospectacle> /*1*/function stripslashes_by_reference(&$string) { $string = stripslashes($string); }
[10:49:10] <prospectacle> /*2*/ if (get_magic_quotes_gpc()) {array_walk_recursive($_POST, "stripslashes_by_reference");}
[10:49:55] <SirFinkus> now here's something odd, the top die is impossible
[10:50:07] <SirFinkus> two faces have 4 dots
[10:50:10] <xlefay> ugh, if (get_magic_quotes_gpc()) { die("Go find yourself another host."); } ..
[10:50:22] <SirFinkus> or the partially obscured one implies 4 dots
[10:50:29] MrBluze|afk is now known as MrBluze
[10:50:32] -!- Subsentient has quit [Quit: Derp.]
[10:50:47] <prospectacle> xlefay, lol
[10:50:58] <prospectacle> Sir
[10:51:11] <prospectacle> SirFinkus, also don't forget that opposite sides of Dice need to add up to 7
[10:51:22] * xlefay goes to make beta.soylentnews.org
[10:51:30] <SirFinkus> I'm willing to accept that these are non-standard dice
[10:51:43] <SirFinkus> but 4 on 2 sides is too much for me to process right now
[10:51:48] <prospectacle> SirFinkus, then how do you know they're not loaded. I wouldn't trust them
[10:51:55] <SirFinkus> there must be something fishy going on
[10:53:16] <prospectacle> it sure sounds like it
[11:02:30] <SirFinkus> only one dice image in the slash repo
[11:02:45] <SirFinkus> I think I'm crazy, unless the server generates a new image
[11:04:13] <prospectacle> Maybe they want you to think you're crazy. Have you seen the movie gaslight?
[11:04:32] <SirFinkus> I'm familiar with the term
[11:11:13] <prospectacle> Well it's all about someone making someone think they're crazy by setting up little things like the dice (although before computers, so like, objects being misplaced)
[11:11:21] <prospectacle> oh, but spoiler alert
[11:11:31] <prospectacle> Probably should have opened with that.
[11:12:28] <SirFinkus> well, yeah
[11:12:31] <SirFinkus> I know the term
[11:12:56] <SirFinkus> I think the idea was the antagonist would turn lights on and off to convince someone that they're crazy
[11:13:04] <SirFinkus> stuff like that
[11:13:18] crutchy|afk is now known as crutchy
[11:13:22] <prospectacle> oh is it a term for the same activity? like "I'm going to gaslight that person?"
[11:13:32] <SirFinkus> yeah
[11:13:35] <prospectacle> SirFinkus, yeah that's right.
[11:14:02] <prospectacle> wb crutchy. I fixed the stupid magic_quotes config, which I'm sure you were dying to know.
[11:14:12] <crutchy> :-)
[11:14:43] <crutchy> most web crawlers seem to go after phpmyadmin anyway
[11:14:50] <crutchy> or some other admin related uri
[11:15:32] <prospectacle> well it wasn't a security problem, as I was handling quotes myself properly, but it was annoying as it added slashes all over the place where you didn't want them.
[11:15:46] <crutchy> unless you're at the top of a heap the only one's likely to bust up your site are your mates :-P
[11:15:53] <crutchy> mkay
[11:16:07] <crutchy> double escaping
[11:16:19] <prospectacle> crutchy, yeah
[11:16:52] <arti> what
[11:16:57] <arti> it's not like its automated
[11:17:43] <prospectacle> arti, the host I was using seemed to have magic_quotes_gpc on. Must have been set up a long time ago
[11:18:55] <arti> slavery was once legal too, times change
[11:19:47] <prospectacle> I sure hope so
[11:20:17] <arti> we've upgraded now, it's debt :D
[11:22:12] <prospectacle> yeah, slighlty better. What's next i wonder
[11:22:54] <arti> i think more .net :D
[11:23:39] <prospectacle> scary, but probably
[11:28:10] <arti> alright, i'm out for awhile, good luck with the dice
[11:28:39] <prospectacle> have fun
[11:29:26] <crutchy> cya arti
[11:29:30] * crutchy salutes
[11:36:41] <prospectacle> i wonder which one of these lurkers is the nsa
[11:37:00] <prospectacle> don't they know there are logs
[11:38:06] <prospectacle> It's probably _NSAKEY. Double bluff.
[11:43:11] <crutchy> the nsa has logs of our logs
[11:50:35] <prospectacle> the nsa have logs of our dogs
[11:50:56] <Popeidol> irc logs must be the least sexy part of NSA datamining
[11:51:35] <Popeidol> I bet the intern gets that, while the rockstars get to handle a live MITM on all facebook users in canada
[11:51:42] <prospectacle> yeah probably they're like ctrl+f->"secret diabolical plans"
[11:51:53] <prospectacle> works every time
[11:52:00] <Popeidol> 'good work john, go see if anybody on efnet is insulting obama'
[11:53:25] <prospectacle> and if they are, steal their companies blueprints and sell them to a friendly
[12:00:45] crutchy is now known as edward_snowden
[12:00:53] <edward_snowden> i need to go take a leak
[12:01:04] <prospectacle> lol
[12:01:05] <prospectacle> crutchy++
[12:01:05] <deadbeef> karma - crutchy: 48
[12:03:00] edward_snowden is now known as crutchy
[12:13:21] <crutchy> lmfao! >>> https://www.youtube.com
[12:13:28] <crutchy> funniest bit
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[12:29:25] <prospectacle> what up sub
[13:09:10] * prospectacle is watching mr smith goes to washington
[13:09:11] <Subsentient> prospectacle: hi
[13:09:40] <prospectacle> that was funny.
[13:09:55] <prospectacle> did you see me type something or did we both send messages at the exact same time after forty minutes of silence?
[13:10:05] <prospectacle> Anyway how's it going?
[13:12:57] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Half dead tired
[13:13:05] <Subsentient> I need to be coding and/or learning ASM, but I am too useless
[13:13:19] <prospectacle> hmm, maybe you should sleep for a cycle and you'll be fresh
[13:13:21] <Subsentient> prospectacle: But yeah same time
[13:13:28] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Doesn't work that way for me.
[13:13:35] <Subsentient> I have some kind of energy issue
[13:13:40] <prospectacle> oh i see.
[13:13:48] <Subsentient> I can sometimes be strong enough, I can sometimes stay awake for 16 hours
[13:13:53] <Subsentient> but my mind is exhausted all the time
[13:13:56] <prospectacle> Are you familiar with the research on the caffeine-nap??
[13:13:58] <Subsentient> and I can't think most of the time.
[13:14:21] <Subsentient> I don't use coffee or anything because it makes my OCD worse for some reason.
[13:14:49] <chromas> Could be that large pile of nasty, rotten burritos surrounding you
[13:14:50] <prospectacle> i see, oh well, soldier on I guess.
[13:15:13] <Subsentient> chromas: lol
[13:15:45] <prospectacle> lol
[13:16:37] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Yeah, the conversation always ends there. I end up with people offering advice like it's a sleep issue, or people telling me to use caffeine I can't use, etc, but my god man
[13:16:41] <Subsentient> I am tired all the time
[13:16:50] <Subsentient> 3/4 of my stories were related from that
[13:17:37] <KonomiNetbook> not around any allegens are you?
[13:17:40] <prospectacle> subsentient. I don't mean to be a nuisance. I realise you probably get the same questions all the time. I just feel for you cause I hate being exhausted. Can you take short power napes (like 10-15) minutes, and does it help even a little?
[13:18:13] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Oh no, it's no nuisance
[13:18:36] <prospectacle> KonomiNetbook, I find some anti-histamines are super-tiring, others are ok.
[13:18:39] <Subsentient> I appreciate the attempts, it's just always the same is all; rather disheartening.
[13:19:02] <Subsentient> prospectacle: I can't power nap. It becomes "goodnight for the day"
[13:19:35] <prospectacle> Subsentient. If you sleep for, say, 12-16 hours a day, are you better for the rest of the day (compared to sleeping 8 or 9)
[13:19:45] <Subsentient> KonomiNetbook: I am allergic to pollen, and I live in the most allergenic state in the USA.
[13:19:56] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Actually, usually worse
[13:20:11] <Subsentient> sometimes I can get up naturally after 3 hours and I usually have a fair amount of energy after that.
[13:20:49] <Subsentient> I am up all night anyways because the day is too busy and distracting to work
[13:21:01] <Subsentient> Not that I ever do any work
[13:21:40] <prospectacle> Sub, maybe it is a sleeping cycle issue. Everyone seems to need a different amount of sleep to function. I think I need six cycles, which is 9 hours, but I almost never get it
[13:21:49] <prospectacle> Some need two cycles, some need 10 maybe (I guess)
[13:22:07] <prospectacle> i think getting too much can be as bad as getting too little
[13:22:20] <prospectacle> Society is obviously designed around the average, but many people are not averge.
[13:22:51] <prospectacle> If you can wake up naturally after 3 hours, maybe you're a 2-cycle man.
[13:22:57] <prospectacle> Maybe you need 2 cycles a couple of times a day
[13:23:00] <prospectacle> have you ever tried it?
[13:24:01] <Subsentient> prospectacle: The only thing that helps is chocolate ice cream for some reason
[13:24:04] <Subsentient> that perks me up
[13:24:14] <prospectacle> well chocolate ice cream is pretty great
[13:24:17] <Subsentient> but since I don't eat meat my diet is so high in sugar that I can't do that often
[13:24:27] * prospectacle gives subsentient a big bowl, with some ice-magic on top
[13:24:29] <Subsentient> I don't want diabetes
[13:24:44] <prospectacle> no meat, have you been tested for iron?
[13:24:49] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Yes.
[13:24:53] <Subsentient> Actually rather high.
[13:25:00] <Subsentient> Not in a bad way
[13:25:09] <Subsentient> a little above average though
[13:25:21] <prospectacle> do you have ice magic where you live? It's like chocolate syrup that goes hard after it goes on ice-cream
[13:25:27] <prospectacle> mmm
[13:25:29] <Subsentient> prospectacle: No.
[13:25:45] <Subsentient> We have melted chocolate
[13:25:48] <Subsentient> that's about it
[13:25:50] <prospectacle> well that's good too
[13:25:55] <Subsentient> and the chocolate syrup that stays runny
[13:26:05] <Subsentient> prospectacle: I live in Arizona USA
[13:26:06] <prospectacle> if you eat veges more often instead of fruit you can have more ice cream
[13:26:22] <Subsentient> prospectacle: I eat lots of beans for protein lo
[13:26:23] <Subsentient> lol
[13:26:36] <Subsentient> you don't wanna be following me for a morning stroll if I just had breakfast lol
[13:27:07] <prospectacle> in american you call it "Magic shell"
[13:27:15] <Subsentient> hmm
[13:27:20] <Subsentient> $ddg magic shell ice cream
[13:27:21] <aqu4> No results found.
[13:27:23] <Subsentient> $ddg magic shell
[13:27:23] <aqu4> [1]: Title: Dessert sauces | URL: 12http://duckduckgo.com/c/Dessert_sauces
[13:27:24] <aqu4> End of results.
[13:28:51] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Ah, I see
[13:29:04] <prospectacle> that's the one. It's just chocolate syrup with coconut and sunflower oil that solidifies at slightly cold temperatures
[13:29:10] <Subsentient> ahh
[13:29:32] <prospectacle> delicious, but full of saturated fat (but then again, if you're already having ice cream...)
[13:29:33] <Subsentient> I'm going to buy a massive tub of chocolate ice cream and eat it and code Epoch 1.1 lol
[13:29:41] <prospectacle> nice
[13:29:45] <prospectacle> what is epoch?
[13:29:54] <Subsentient> prospectacle: http://universe2.us
[13:30:09] <prospectacle> oh that's right
[13:30:22] <Subsentient> systemd's skinny, short enemy.
[13:30:26] <prospectacle> do you have logs of how many people download and use your epoch system?
[13:30:30] <prospectacle> It looks very useful
[13:30:41] <Subsentient> prospectacle: I have apache logs that I look at from time to time
[13:30:45] <Subsentient> Limme see
[13:34:03] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Apparently a decent number.
[13:34:07] <prospectacle> nice
[13:34:16] <prospectacle> How many, if you don't mind me asking
[13:34:16] <Subsentient> Or at least are interested
[13:34:26] <Subsentient> I saw like 9-12 for today
[13:34:33] <prospectacle> do you have d/l numbers specifically, or just page-views?
[13:34:37] <Subsentient> page views
[13:34:39] <Subsentient> limme see
[13:35:32] <juggler> prospectacle the testacle
[13:36:12] <prospectacle> Subsentient, I'm in ur freenode channel
[13:36:43] <Subsentient> prospectacle: Excellent!
[13:36:43] <prospectacle> a few people there. Looks like you've got a community going (assuming they're not all your sockpuppets)
[13:36:52] <Subsentient> prospectacle: No.
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[13:41:51] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Real-time Ray-tracing at GDC 2014 - http://sylnt.us - Ray-who?
[13:42:32] <prospectacle> no fucking way
[13:43:34] <KonomiNetbook> NCommander: btw what was that cool thing you were going to show me?
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[13:45:35] MrBluze is now known as MisterNo
[13:49:04] <MisterNo> hi konomi
[13:50:35] <prospectacle> Realtime ray tracing would be the holy grail of 3d animation
[13:51:24] <MisterNo> it would make for some good graphics
[13:54:42] <prospectacle> looks like this new system does RTRT for the lighting only, which may be a big step in itself and save a great deal on GPU cycles
[13:55:30] <MisterNo> that's most of the realism anyway
[13:56:18] <crutchy> there's a little box in the gpu and a light moves into position and the gpu takes a photo and puts it on the screen
[13:56:50] <crutchy> oh hi konomi
[13:57:23] <MisterNo> oh so that's how they faked the osama videos
[13:59:21] <prospectacle> crutchy, sounds kind of like the imp cameras in the discworld
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[14:00:28] <crutchy> fuck i'm goin to sleep at my desk again... need coffee++
[14:00:52] <MisterNo> sleep, actually crutchy
[14:02:15] <crutchy> i'm working on tabulating access query data for a wiki template
[14:02:27] <crutchy> and i have bacon waiting to be cooked and eated
[14:02:40] <crutchy> bacon++
[14:02:40] <deadbeef> karma - bacon: 219
[14:03:19] <MisterNo> im converting everything to filemaker
[14:03:30] <MisterNo> gonna be one millionth the work to maintain in future
[14:08:54] <prospectacle> to filemaker from what?
[14:09:41] <MisterNo> from all the old sqlite based wxdev-cpp stuff I did years ago
[14:10:11] <MisterNo> like.. 5+ years ago
[14:15:02] * Bytram recommends ISAM files
[14:15:10] <Bytram> =)
[14:16:04] <Bytram> or maybe comma-separated values so you could process everything in a spreadsheet! Lotus 1-2-3 FTW!
[14:16:43] <Bytram> *crickets*
[14:16:55] <MisterNo> yeah, but i am making it so people can run sub-projects like their own audits and so on and maintain them on their own, without bugging me
[14:17:17] <MisterNo> all i have to do is make sure they create their tables properly
[14:17:22] <Bytram> ahh, teach 'em to fish!
[14:17:41] * Bytram remembers playing "Go Fish" as a kid.
[14:18:19] <Bytram> well, procrastinated as much as I can; time to get ready for the day job
[14:18:27] <Bytram> cyal8r!
[14:18:54] <MisterNo> ciao
[14:19:13] <prospectacle> see ya bytram
[14:19:15] <Bytram> hmm, chow! need to eat, too! thanks for the reminder!
[14:19:16] <Bytram> cya
[14:19:42] <prospectacle> bon apetit mr b
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[14:25:09] <prospectacle> MisterNo, I've never used filemaker, is it a good program?
[14:26:04] <MisterNo> it's entirely drag/drop
[14:26:12] <MisterNo> not a line of code
[14:26:53] <MisterNo> so it has a very shallow learning curve to get started .. but the server has a php frontend, u can write c++ tools for it
[14:27:26] <MisterNo> and it will interface with odbc and so on .. it's pretty good to be honest
[14:27:47] <MisterNo> .. and it also has mobile app support
[14:28:06] * MisterNo thinks u could do worse than filemaker
[14:28:34] <prospectacle> that sounds pretty sweet. I haven't used a RAD for ages, but I remember them fondly.
[14:28:36] <MisterNo> tho ideally i'd just use an sql server like mysql (or postresql, who cares which) and write a web front-end and be done with it
[14:28:52] * prospectacle used access and VB and missed them when he moved to the web, but they had their problems, too
[14:28:56] <MisterNo> well the output is very shiny, the software is bug free
[14:29:08] <MisterNo> access and vb is ugly and messy
[14:29:22] <MisterNo> and incredibly quirky
[14:29:30] <prospectacle> so filemaker is the same idea as access, but done properly?
[14:30:06] <MisterNo> yeah basically .. but no vbscript
[14:30:15] <MisterNo> if u want to write something u use c++
[14:31:21] <MisterNo> .. the server setup means u can theoretically run a website on it
[14:32:15] <MisterNo> although i wouldn't do that .. a web site should be done properly
[14:35:47] <crutchy> mrbluze... how does filemaker go over a network (compared to access)?
[14:36:17] * crutchy is eating a bacon burger :-DD~
[14:36:25] <MisterNo> u have 3 options
[14:37:00] <MisterNo> 1. u can run ordinary filemaker on several computers and access via a file share .. i think limit 5 concurrencies
[14:37:23] <MisterNo> 2. u can run filemaker advanced .. and u can write apps for computers/devices and again, some limit to concurrencies
[14:37:41] <crutchy> so 1. sync's like access i guess (file-server)
[14:37:53] <MisterNo> 3. u run filemaker server, and u can have any number of concurrencies .. and it has a web / filemaker app / custom app interfaces all working together
[14:38:07] <MisterNo> yeah .. 1 is like sharing an sqlite3 file
[14:38:12] <crutchy> 3. is client-server
[14:38:18] <MisterNo> 2 is the same but u dont have to buy so many licenses
[14:38:23] <MisterNo> yeah 3 is client-server
[14:38:37] <MisterNo> but any of 1 and 2 can also work with 3
[14:39:18] <MisterNo> but a full server is like $10k
[14:39:53] <crutchy> how much is mssql server for access client-server back end?
[14:40:19] <crutchy> i guess u could use mysql
[14:41:08] <MisterNo> mysql is $0
[14:41:17] <MisterNo> mssql is $1000 or therabouts
[14:42:21] <MisterNo> this is an expensive product but u get a very very slick environment to work with .. and given the amount of time u spend flucking aroudn with ms and working around bugs, its probably worth it in our setting
[14:43:52] <MisterNo> we have no hope hiring a full time maintainer for our databases and so on - there's absolutely no money for that
[14:43:59] <crutchy> i liked the old filemaker i learned in high school (think i already mentioned)
[14:44:31] <MisterNo> yeah it's not that different .. except u can write c++ for it .. and the server setup scales well - they have usage cases of 5000+ clients
[14:44:37] <crutchy> same here. if i go the intranet will get shitcanned
[14:44:40] <MisterNo> to one server.. not too bad
[14:44:45] <crutchy> prolly anyway
[14:44:49] <MisterNo> exactly
[14:44:54] <MisterNo> if i go .. they start from zero
[14:45:07] <MisterNo> so i get filemaker going, and then everybody can know their stuff is usable
[14:45:27] <crutchy> good for a feeling of a bit of job security
[14:45:50] <crutchy> i'm sure if i fukked up i would be disposable regardless though
[14:46:44] <MisterNo> to be honest, its not job security
[14:46:55] <MisterNo> if u make the admins feel insecure .. they try to find a way of replacing u
[14:47:23] <MisterNo> im always ready to move on - always getting ready .. thats the best security
[14:53:58] <MisterNo> eg: if u run a business, and u do a list of threats .. u might put down "if our sys admin moves on, we are screwed"
[14:54:41] <MisterNo> which kind of sucks
[15:01:20] <crutchy> my boss wouldn't be screwed
[15:01:30] <crutchy> my stuff isn't mission-critical
[15:01:41] <prospectacle> do any of you run your own business?
[15:01:51] <crutchy> i wish
[15:02:08] <crutchy> actually nah i wouldn't cope
[15:02:41] <crutchy> running own business = 10 x stress of being employee
[15:03:01] <MisterNo> no, i just am in constant meetings with the business manager
[15:03:10] <MisterNo> but we dont run for profit
[15:03:34] <prospectacle> Yeah I wish I did too.
[15:03:51] <prospectacle> MisterNo: are you govt. funded or nfp?
[15:06:22] <MisterNo> govt funded
[15:06:36] <crutchy> not sure what it would be like in public sector. i guess you're at the whim of politicians which would be stressful
[15:06:47] <MisterNo> yeah a bit, crutchy
[15:06:55] <MisterNo> but we find cheap ways around problems just like anyone else
[15:07:12] <MisterNo> hard part is finding creative solutions in the face of unimaginative managers
[15:11:56] <prospectacle> Big organisations (e.g. govt.) are amazing. It's like another country.
[15:12:28] <prospectacle> Small companies are like "let's see if we can do this somehow", big companies/organisations are like "this is what we must do, but first, we must do the paperwork"
[15:12:40] <prospectacle> not that one is better or worse, but they sure are different.
[15:14:13] <MisterNo> im off to bed
[15:14:15] <MisterNo> ill see u all alter
[15:14:21] <MisterNo> .. we are definitely big
[15:14:32] <MisterNo> so its like being a mouse in a house
[15:14:35] <MisterNo> u sneak your way and get solutions
[15:14:42] <MisterNo> seeyas :)
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[15:19:38] <crutchy> cya mrbluze :-)
[15:20:03] <prospectacle> bye misterno, sleep well
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[15:41:22] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - The Limit to Male Fertility - http://sylnt.us - More-sperm-than-heart
[15:43:56] * Subsentient set a shutdown in 5 minutes as he wraps up for bed
[15:48:51] <prospectacle> ah ha! I have discovered the trap door beneath the rug in zork
[15:48:56] <prospectacle> adventure awaits!\
[15:50:24] <prospectacle> you're all jealous
[15:50:27] * prospectacle opens the trap door...
[15:53:44] * AndyTheAbsurd waits for prospectacle to get eaten by a grue.
[16:03:34] -!- Subsentient has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[16:08:44] <prospectacle> damn it
[16:08:56] <prospectacle> how do you use staircases
[16:09:24] <prospectacle> "use staircase" doesn't work. "Go down the stairs", "enter the trapdoor", etc.
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[16:11:18] <prospectacle> andy you'll be happy to know i was eaten
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[16:15:05] <AndyTheAbsurd> you should have used a light.
[16:15:14] <AndyTheAbsurd> grues stay out of the light.
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[16:19:54] <michealpwalls> 'morning! :)
[16:27:37] <prospectacle> andy, thanks for the tip. I got the lantern, but I guess I didn't turn it on
[16:28:02] <prospectacle> hi michael
[16:28:45] <prospectacle> micheal
[16:29:10] <prospectacle> is that an alternative spelling, or are you just being funny?
[16:29:35] <prospectacle> if it's the former, I understand. My real name also has a non-majority spelling and I hate it when people assume the wrong one.
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[16:44:41] <michealpwalls> Hi there :)
[16:44:49] <michealpwalls> It's the former :(
[16:45:00] <michealpwalls> I've looked into changing it, but it costs like $160.. Meh.
[16:45:27] <michealpwalls> I've grown up accepting that people will write my name down as the majority spelling haha
[16:47:09] -!- weather [weather!~weather@724-640-25-593.cust.aussiebb.net] has joined #Soylent
[16:47:47] <crutchy> weather
[16:47:48] <weather> WEATHER INFORMATION BOT
[16:47:48] <weather> Usage: "weather location"
[16:47:48] <weather> Example usage: "weather melbourne australia"
[16:47:48] <weather> by crutchy: https://github.com
[16:48:20] <crutchy> weather london
[16:48:23] <weather> Weather for London St James Park, -, United Kingdom of Great Britain & N. Ireland at 2014-04-12 14:00:00 (UTC):
[16:48:23] <weather> Temperature = 56.5°F (13.6°C)
[16:48:23] <weather> Barometric pressure = (no data)
[16:48:42] <crutchy> weather new york
[16:48:45] <weather> Weather for Brooklyn, NY US at 2014-04-12 14:23:00 (UTC):
[16:48:45] <weather> Temperature = 61°F (16.1°C)
[16:48:45] <weather> Barometric pressure = 61 mb
[16:53:07] -!- KonomiNetbook has quit [Quit: leaving]
[16:53:12] <michealpwalls> weather toronto
[16:53:15] <weather> Weather for Toronto City, ONT, Canada at 2014-04-12 14:00:00 (UTC):
[16:53:15] <weather> Temperature = 55.4°F (13°C)
[16:53:15] <weather> Barometric pressure = (no data)
[16:53:19] <michealpwalls> It should /msg us :P
[16:53:26] <michealpwalls> Wait, maybe if I msg it..
[16:53:51] <crutchy> it went somewhere
[16:53:54] <crutchy> lol
[16:54:02] <michealpwalls> Hrmm, it ignores my /msg. Cool that crutchy has it on git, maybe I'll check it out later! (hifive)
[16:54:10] <michealpwalls> Oh hey crutchy!
[16:54:14] <michealpwalls> How are things?
[16:54:30] <crutchy> can't complain :-)
[16:54:32] <crutchy> you?
[16:54:35] <michealpwalls> hehe that's good :P
[16:54:43] <michealpwalls> Same, waking up (coffee)
[16:55:02] <crutchy> might make another coffee
[16:55:11] <crutchy> it's only 1am here
[16:55:14] <crutchy> :-P
[16:55:24] <michealpwalls> Writing a select query that's like, substring_indexing substring_indexes of a substring_index LOL
[16:55:45] <crutchy> hahaha that looks weird
[16:55:47] <michealpwalls> Super maintainable! :)
[16:56:17] <prospectacle> when coffee comes up on this #room, aussies know it's time to get to bed.
[16:56:25] <michealpwalls> haha
[16:56:27] <prospectacle> But it's the weekend, screw it
[16:56:29] <michealpwalls> Yea that's about it
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[16:56:55] <crutchy> lol
[16:57:05] <michealpwalls> The subselect query: (SELECT DISTINCT SUBSTRING_INDEX(presenter,' ',1) AS 'First Name', SUBSTRING_INDEX(SUBSTRING_INDEX(presenter,' ',2),' ',-1) AS 'Last Name' FROM workshops)
[16:57:10] <crutchy> prospectacle: pretty much where i'm at
[16:57:25] <crutchy> brainhurt
[16:57:27] <michealpwalls> So it says, select the first 2 words from the presenter column and display the first word, then display the second word
[16:57:30] <prospectacle> crutchy, well I figure if you can't stay up late on a saturday, when can you stay up late?
[16:57:37] <crutchy> yeah
[16:57:39] <crutchy> :-)
[16:58:18] <prospectacle> Why all the nested substrings?
[16:58:33] <michealpwalls> is there a better way? LOL
[16:58:34] <prospectacle> I guess that's not a useful question. Have you verified each level of (not-nested) substrings does what's intended?
[16:58:34] <michealpwalls> Probably
[16:59:12] <michealpwalls> Yea I've got one big query in a window on the left and building this nested one on the right 'cause I want to use it in a sub-select query
[16:59:35] <prospectacle> what is substring_index(substring_index(presenter, " ", 2), " ", -1) meant to do?
[16:59:36] <michealpwalls> 'cause it's going to get the first and last name of the presenters of sessions and try to find them in the users table. Make a view of it, like "presenter users" or something
[17:00:22] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Wait For Nobel Prizes Increasing - http://sylnt.us - I-am-still-waiting-too
[17:00:25] <michealpwalls> Well, the INNER substring_index takes the first two "words" from the presenter column (Which sometimes has credentials.. Like "Firstname Lastname Credential Credential, Credential etc" and I don't want any of that junk on the end)
[17:00:57] <michealpwalls> And then the OUTTER substring_index takes the 2nd (Using a negative index you count from the right side of the string) word (Last name)
[17:01:33] <prospectacle> I see. So if you say select substring_index(presenter, " ", 2) do you get the first two names?
[17:01:59] <michealpwalls> Here's an example, but I've removed the name for privacy hehe: "Firstname Lastname MBA, CPGA Coordinator, Bachelor of Business - Golf Management / Go [...]"
[17:02:06] <michealpwalls> Yea, I would get "Firstname Lastname"
[17:02:47] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, so what is the problem?
[17:02:59] <prospectacle> sorry I'm watching a movie I came in mid-way through discussion
[17:03:01] <michealpwalls> hehe nothing, just bored and felt like chatting :P
[17:03:09] <prospectacle> oh ok
[17:03:20] <michealpwalls> sorry haha don't mind me (drunk)
[17:03:22] <prospectacle> I hadn't heard of substring_index, sounds like a useful function
[17:03:27] <michealpwalls> It is!
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[17:03:47] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, i'm drinking as well, what are weekends for
[17:04:00] <michealpwalls> Usually what I do is I hack together a confusing series of queries like the above and then wrap them in a "VIEW", so you can just do SELECT VIEWNAME and away you go :)
[17:04:22] <prospectacle> I'm watching the social network as well . I've been meaning to get to my own coding project all night, but this chat room is very engaging.
[17:04:29] <michealpwalls> That was a good movie, actually
[17:04:39] <prospectacle> I think if you can learn to direct your attention precisely, you can learn to do anything.
[17:04:56] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, I must admit I've never tried a "view". I always put it in a php function or something
[17:04:59] <michealpwalls> I don't think they portrayed the "victim" very well. They made them out to be such douchebags (in the movie) that nobody would feel sorry for the fact they they legitimately got ripped off for their intellectual property :/
[17:05:33] <michealpwalls> Jah, that's perfectly fine (Wrapping the query in a PHP function)
[17:05:39] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, I think it's good in that it doesn't make anyone look like a hero, it just shows "in this system, this is what can happen, and why"
[17:06:03] <michealpwalls> haha yea I stopped logging on here while at work :P
[17:06:27] <prospectacle> I mean if the story is true, the winkevosses deserve some compensation. Not cause their idea was stolen, but because zuckerberg lied in order to delay them finding someone else
[17:07:10] <prospectacle> that's like, "Yeah I'll get your groceries for you in time for the big party, not worries" Meanwhile you're buying groceries for your own party...
[17:07:13] <michealpwalls> Indeed! As a freelance developer (With limited experience, admittedly..) I know I can't just agree to do a project for somebody.. Write it and then claim it as mine. WTF?! LOL
[17:07:24] <michealpwalls> That's essentially what zuckerburg did (Spelling? hehe)
[17:07:35] <prospectacle> yeah, I mean "No worries'
[17:08:11] <prospectacle> you are freelance? that's way cool. I want to be freelance one day. OR else buskerware (i.e. donations for freeware)
[17:08:23] <michealpwalls> Although... An arguement could be made that it's on the client to make the developer sign a contract and possibly an NDA of some kind? I don't know much about law and it's different in each country
[17:08:36] <michealpwalls> I suppose I should say was. I had nothing but bad experience as freelance haha
[17:08:43] <michealpwalls> It's way complicated with contracts and such :/
[17:09:02] <n1> if someone can fuck you over for their own gain, they will.
[17:09:22] <michealpwalls> I am in college know, I honestly want to just work for a corporation so I can just code... And have a legal department to worry about all that crazy shit
[17:09:22] <n1> not necessarily in a malicious way, just in a self-preservation way.
[17:09:32] <prospectacle> n1 sounds like a good rule to remember
[17:09:39] <prospectacle> whether it's true or not, it's a good rule to remember
[17:09:53] <n1> 4 years of being self-employed, it's burned into my brain.
[17:09:55] <prospectacle> like "assume all input is malicious"
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[17:10:07] <prospectacle> it's not, but you're better off assuming it is
[17:10:24] <n1> ethics dont pay for shit in business, generally, it might might pay, but not all the obligations you have.
[17:10:35] <michealpwalls> Yea, +n1 is totaly right.. LOL it's cold out there! People will fuck you over. Zuckerbergs is an exception, mostly it's the other way around where the developer gets screwed over for their work
[17:10:37] <prospectacle> n1 what kind of self-employed stuff do you do (contracting, sales, customisation, etc)?
[17:10:39] <n1> there's always someone you're competing against, who is willing to lie.
[17:11:31] <n1> installation and maintenance of physical/electronic security systems
[17:11:58] <n1> i did it as an employee, and as a contractor
[17:12:01] <n1> then i went my own way
[17:12:08] <michealpwalls> Although, as you gain xperience you learn to avoid the situations I suppose. End up with some nice boilerplate contracts maybe so that it's not such a struggle with each project
[17:12:15] <n1> contracting was worse, imho
[17:12:40] <prospectacle> the guy who makes dwarf fortress has it made
[17:12:42] <n1> because the hours you'd get on a job as an employee would be say 16, they'd cut it down to 12 in the office
[17:12:46] <prospectacle> work full time on pet project from donations
[17:12:48] <prospectacle> that's the dream
[17:12:54] <michealpwalls> Like with the job I just did, I could focus exclusively on development.. I had an HR guy that screened all communications and he basically kept everything non-technical out of my inbox. It was a fucking dream!
[17:12:58] <n1> but if you're a contractor, that 2 day job would end up being a one day job
[17:13:05] <n1> because they took another slice before you got a hold of it
[17:13:08] <prospectacle> A second leg of the dream is NCommanders schedule, work on trains and travel where you like
[17:13:19] <prospectacle> the third part is having some free time. e.g. a four day work-week
[17:13:47] <n1> i work on SoylentNews to give me a break from the never ending list of work things i have to do
[17:14:02] <michealpwalls> There's benefits to being in an organization, that's for sure. Benefits to being an independent contractor as well (A lot!) but definately it's a lot more of a challenge. Much more work in a way..
[17:14:02] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, that sounds pretty great. I have a guy right now who actively likes to shield me from support calls so I can concentrate. Makes a massive difference
[17:14:20] <n1> and i have a business partner who takes care of all of the administration and legal stuff - and it still never ends.
[17:14:22] <michealpwalls> It does! I find the *people* more frustrating than the projects haha
[17:14:53] <prospectacle> michealpwalls. I don't even mind support in itself, but when it's interrupting more urgent stuff it's just annoying.
[17:15:02] <prospectacle> n1, that's pretty handy
[17:15:19] <prospectacle> n1 what kind of work do you do? What kind of products/
[17:15:27] <n1> prospectacle, i couldnt do it without him. it's too much to run a ltd company as just one person, i only have limited knowledge and time
[17:15:32] <n1> <+n1> installation and maintenance of physical/electronic security systems
[17:15:46] <prospectacle> oh that's right, you said. I thought maybe you meant that was the past
[17:15:49] <n1> cctv, access control, alarms
[17:15:54] <prospectacle> for home or business. I guess business, as they have money
[17:15:58] <michealpwalls> Sometimes, prospectacle.. But imagine in the middle of writing a sorting aglorithm when someone physically comes to the office you're in complaining about the *subject line* of an email... A fucking subject line!
[17:15:58] <n1> both
[17:16:08] <n1> the home market was easier to get into starting up
[17:16:15] <n1> but business is better work and better money
[17:16:24] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, yeah I know what you mean (not so extreme, but I understand)
[17:16:28] <michealpwalls> I'm like "Uhm, I'm sorry but honestly I'm not sure what you're even talking about. Is there anyway you could take this up with <HR guy's name>" (rofl)
[17:16:38] <prospectacle> n1, I guess it's a ladder. Personal, business, then govt, then military
[17:16:50] <michealpwalls> At that point I lost my train of thought, but meh. Coffee was low so whatevs :P
[17:16:55] <prospectacle> n1 if you can get any military contracts you'll be riding the gravy train to shangri la
[17:17:00] <n1> but i dabble as well, i've done project management and what ever comes up, but of web design and general construction
[17:17:05] <n1> i have an ethical issue with that
[17:17:11] <prospectacle> fair enough
[17:17:13] <n1> installing cctv for people to protect private property i don't mind
[17:17:19] <michealpwalls> +n1: Jah! I had a project management class in my 3rd semester and loved it!
[17:17:20] <prospectacle> military are in fact hired killers. no escaping it
[17:17:26] <n1> but for the government to use it against the population, i cant justify that
[17:17:31] <michealpwalls> Really cool stuff. Microsoft Project is crazy powerful tool :O
[17:18:07] <michealpwalls> hehe +n1, I *try* my hardest to stay out of politics :P
[17:18:15] <prospectacle> oh yeah my girlfriend took a short course in microsoft project, sounds pretty useful.
[17:18:28] <prospectacle> n1 what government are you under?
[17:18:51] <michealpwalls> I think it's the same for most "Western" governments, really (What +n1's talking about with CCTV)
[17:19:03] <michealpwalls> Even in supposedly "freest" countries :D
[17:19:26] <michealpwalls> Intelligence gathering in general, I should add ;)
[17:20:06] <prospectacle> yeah they're a bunch of clowns. I only ask 'cause few people have the mistrust, the disdain for the very idea of government, as americans.
[17:20:17] <michealpwalls> haha
[17:20:26] <michealpwalls> I admire Americans :D
[17:20:33] <michealpwalls> I really do lol
[17:20:53] <prospectacle> me too, sure. but their government, and their attitude to government is something interesting.
[17:21:20] <michealpwalls> It's very American, I think as you really study their history it makes perfect rational sense.
[17:22:02] <michealpwalls> All of it. Their distrust of government, their emotionally-charged connection to fundamental rights such as the right to bare arms, protect life and property.
[17:22:19] <michealpwalls> It's all fundamental to the history of the American Republic, in my opinion.
[17:22:19] <prospectacle> yes, there are good historical reasons to explain it
[17:23:03] <prospectacle> you're in canada, micheal?
[17:23:05] <michealpwalls> Their insistance on a strong, powerful military as well. It's all part of their Republic's history.
[17:23:13] <michealpwalls> Yup, eastern Ontario :)
[17:23:32] <prospectacle> I wish to visit one day. What are the 4 best towns i should go to?
[17:23:38] <prospectacle> towns/cities
[17:23:41] <michealpwalls> Toronto
[17:23:46] <michealpwalls> *thinks*
[17:23:52] <prospectacle> lol
[17:24:33] <michealpwalls> haha jk. Well what do you want to see? :)
[17:24:54] <prospectacle> dunno. It's just one of the countries high on my list
[17:25:17] <prospectacle> I like, you know, cities and culture and history.
[17:25:21] <prospectacle> whatever you've got
[17:25:46] <prospectacle> I like interesting bookshops and bars
[17:26:06] <prospectacle> I like good food and landscapes you can look at and think "I'm glad I saw that, what a world"
[17:26:18] <michealpwalls> No I mean, Canada is pretty cool in that we have large metropolitan cities like in the U.S or the U.K but also very small, rural communities. Different climates in diff. areas, as well.
[17:26:22] <n1> prospectacle, in ref to your earlier question. i'm in the UK.
[17:26:56] <michealpwalls> If you want culture and historical cities, I think Kingston (near Ottawa) is a really cool city to check out.
[17:26:57] <prospectacle> n1, I loved the uk when I visited, and i want to go back, but I have mixed feelings about living there (which is a real possibility, depending on various outcomes)
[17:27:11] <n1> prospectacle, i'm trying to leave to be honest
[17:27:16] <michealpwalls> "Old" (Old for Canada!) buildings made out of limestone. Rich in history
[17:27:17] <prospectacle> n1, where will you go?
[17:27:24] <michealpwalls> In my opinion, of course ;)
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[17:27:35] <michealpwalls> I don't travel much so I'm probably the worste possible one to ask LMAO!
[17:27:39] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, well that is what I asked for. I'll look up kingston...
[17:27:46] <n1> the long term goal is australia
[17:28:01] <n1> but short term probably mainland europe, portugal
[17:28:25] <prospectacle> n1 well you're welcome here as far as I'm concerned. We've got fairly low unemployment, you could probably get a visa for some kind of special skills
[17:28:37] <n1> the UK is not a supporter of 'freedom' of any stripe really, the 'words' are one thing, the laws are quite different
[17:28:42] <n1> but i have similar concerns with australia on that
[17:28:54] <n1> i spend a little under a year in melbourne and i fell in love with the people and lifestyle
[17:29:03] <michealpwalls> I have a lot of online friends from all over the world, +n1, and I would say that that is something shared in all Western nations...
[17:29:04] <michealpwalls> Seriously.
[17:29:27] <michealpwalls> Australia is no different, neither is Canada or anywhere else that claims "Western" status. We've all thrown our liberties out the window after "9/1"
[17:29:37] <n1> the difference i see is some countries have legal obligations they often ifnore
[17:29:37] <michealpwalls> :s/1/11
[17:29:38] <michealpwalls> LOL
[17:29:39] <n1> ignore*
[17:29:45] <n1> like the US being a good example
[17:29:52] <n1> in the UK, we just have to do what we're told
[17:29:54] <michealpwalls> LOL I proomised myself I wouldn't talk politics!
[17:30:00] <n1> being british subjects and all
[17:30:17] <n1> the most 'rights' we have are under the EU Human Rights, which most of the country think we're too good for.
[17:30:21] <prospectacle> n1 if you want someone who will stand up to american surveillance-state philosophy, go to new zealand
[17:30:27] <prospectacle> you can always visit australia on weekends.
[17:30:41] <n1> heh
[17:31:10] <n1> great britain doesnt need to worry about free speech and rights, because we're great. it says it in the name
[17:31:11] <michealpwalls> Google "Canada Toronto G20" :)
[17:31:26] <prospectacle> australia is pretty great, I mean in some ways. It's a bit sparse and all, but I guess you have to choose your balance. New zealand is great. Just dont' expect too much excitement
[17:31:59] <prospectacle> I was in wellington (NZ) earlier this year, beautiful place. Good coffee
[17:32:05] <n1> i spent most of my time in melbourne, and that was good enough for me really, it was the people that sold it more than anything
[17:32:35] <prospectacle> n1 melbourne is always good. The best resaurants are in nested alleyways that you never find until you've been drinking for hours and then you can never find them again.
[17:32:51] <michealpwalls> New Zealand looks really beautiful hehe
[17:33:04] <michealpwalls> There's a lot of beauty in Canada as well
[17:33:09] <michealpwalls> The land is awesome here
[17:33:12] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, it is. They've also capitalised to an embarassing degree on the lord of the rings.
[17:33:29] <michealpwalls> haha
[17:33:29] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, I was re-watching due south recently, sure shows off the wilderness well
[17:33:36] <n1> both nz and canada are quite enticing
[17:33:50] <n1> the weather in canada, not so much
[17:34:17] <michealpwalls> I just "go with the flow" with politics, honestly. I just focus on myself and my family and try not to worry about it LOL
[17:34:29] <prospectacle> n1, are you in england? What about non english uk nations? I know it would be treason, but maybe it would also be a nice place to live?
[17:34:41] <michealpwalls> The weather in Canada is.. Interesting. It really, really depends on *where* you are in Canada.
[17:34:42] <n1> how do you mean?
[17:34:51] <prospectacle> n1, I mean like scotland or ireland or wales?
[17:34:56] <n1> ah
[17:35:06] <n1> well, i'd be seriouslty considering scotland if they go independent
[17:35:07] <michealpwalls> It really does. At any given time, you can find many different climates in Canada.. From frigid cold to very confortable.
[17:35:08] <prospectacle> do they have a better time of it, government-wise?
[17:35:08] <n1> -t
[17:35:21] <n1> there's move for scotland to exit the UK
[17:35:28] <michealpwalls> Can that happen?
[17:35:30] <prospectacle> yeah I hope they do, as far as I'm concerned, the more countries the better (to a point. A point that we're nowhere near)
[17:35:36] <n1> yeah, there is a vote coming up soon on it
[17:35:39] <prospectacle> when is the vote n1?
[17:35:45] <michealpwalls> Like, can Scotland just decide to leave the UK? Doesn't "England" have a say in that LOL?
[17:35:47] <n1> not sure exactly, as i can't vote in it lol
[17:35:50] <michealpwalls> I'm really ignorant, sorry :P
[17:35:57] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, there's a vote soon
[17:36:09] <n1> england is the hub of the UK, which would mean the UK would disband
[17:36:18] <michealpwalls> Oh wow! I didn't know that Scotland had that right. That's pretty cool..
[17:36:19] <n1> and all those 'british over seas terriroties' for tax purposes
[17:36:21] <prospectacle> that's probably ok, the eu is the new thing anyway
[17:36:25] <n1> would become a complicated situation
[17:36:34] <michealpwalls> I always pictured it as more of a conquered nation (Sorry if that's offensive, I'm really ignorant..)
[17:36:44] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, it certainly was
[17:36:45] <n1> whats a conquered nation?
[17:36:54] <michealpwalls> LOL sorry
[17:37:00] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, but so was america, australia, canada, india, etc
[17:37:04] <michealpwalls> Indeed!
[17:37:21] <prospectacle> I mean the english don't have the stomach for it anymore
[17:37:28] <michealpwalls> There's a lot of benefits to being in the UK though, is there not?
[17:37:30] <n1> the uk has a lot of interesting in the global equilibirum
[17:37:41] <n1> because we drew most of the borders
[17:37:51] <prospectacle> yes and invented most of the team-based sports
[17:37:59] <michealpwalls> Indeed! God save England! :)
[17:38:01] <prospectacle> soccer, rugby, cricket, etc
[17:38:08] <prospectacle> not that I care for sports, but credit where it's due
[17:38:09] <michealpwalls> The queen, etc.
[17:38:11] <michealpwalls> (rofl)
[17:38:28] <prospectacle> basketball was canada though, I believe
[17:38:30] <n1> it troubles me how much faith the people here have in the queen
[17:38:32] <michealpwalls> Canada is pretty big on the Queen :)
[17:38:36] <n1> to 'step in' if the government gets out of line
[17:38:46] <n1> thats our safety net
[17:38:50] <michealpwalls> Omg.. You want faith in the Queen? Seriously take a vacation in Canada some time :)
[17:38:55] <prospectacle> n1, when I watch uk talk shows they're always bagging her out. I'd say there's a healthy skepticism in some corners
[17:38:58] <n1> some old woman who's lived the most privileged life you can get
[17:38:59] <michealpwalls> It's like a fucking episode of the Twilight Zone here..
[17:39:06] <n1> a head of state of over a dozen countries
[17:39:12] <n1> she's really in touch with the man on the street
[17:39:43] <prospectacle> you guys probably haven't heard this, but our prime-minister is a big monarchist, and has recently promised to re-introduce knights and dames
[17:39:47] <prospectacle> he's a bit of a joke
[17:39:58] <prospectacle> but his party won the election so what can you do
[17:40:01] <michealpwalls> Ours is as well, prospectacle.
[17:40:18] <n1> winning the election is often a shame
[17:40:19] <n1> sham*
[17:40:23] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, yeah it's funny the swing against republicanism that's happened lately
[17:40:24] <michealpwalls> He has revived the old "Royal" names.. "Royal Canadian Air Force" etc..
[17:40:26] <n1> look at the current UK government
[17:40:37] <michealpwalls> It's.. iunno. I have no comment :)
[17:40:42] <prospectacle> n1 at least you've shaken things up a bit with a coalition recently
[17:41:02] <n1> LOL
[17:41:04] <n1> no, not at all
[17:41:14] <n1> it took like a week from the liberal democrats being the minor party
[17:41:31] <n1> before they became the same as the two main parties
[17:41:40] <n1> suddenly, it was business as usual, just more confusing
[17:41:49] <michealpwalls> I miss the way the windows taskbar behaved when you right-clicked on a window.. I hate the limited options now.. "Pin this to the taskbar | Close Window" LOL where's minimize/restore etc? :/
[17:41:58] <prospectacle> n1, well, it's a start.
[17:42:00] <n1> and evidence of that can be
[17:42:03] <n1> since the coalition
[17:42:10] <n1> the liberal democrats have lost at least half of their voters
[17:42:23] <michealpwalls> LOL +n1. Just remember.. God Save the Queen! :)
[17:42:40] <prospectacle> n1, sounds about right. coalitions and minor parties are a fun experiment. The westminster system is not really designed for them, but they're creeping in slowly.
[17:42:41] <n1> UKIP is now the third party, which will be official on the next round of elections
[17:42:58] <prospectacle> n1, in my world, the representatives woud all be independents, to a one.
[17:42:59] <n1> it's likely we'll get a UKIP Conservative coalition next time
[17:43:03] <n1> prospectacle, i agree
[17:43:14] <n1> so we'll go from the balance of power looking toward the center
[17:43:18] <prospectacle> I honestly think we're heading slowly in that direction as information becomes more available
[17:43:20] <n1> to the balance of power pushing to the far right
[17:43:28] <n1> people with a tear in their eyes about the days of empire
[17:43:37] <prospectacle> n1, are you leaving the eu?
[17:43:52] <n1> that will be decided after the next general election
[17:44:03] <n1> and if UKIP manages to sway that, it's quite likely
[17:44:09] <michealpwalls> Long live the empire!
[17:44:10] <n1> pulling on the emotions of keeping great britain great.
[17:44:38] <prospectacle> yeah like being in the eu precludes that
[17:44:45] <michealpwalls> I just want jobs :)
[17:44:46] <michealpwalls> LMAO
[17:44:50] <prospectacle> oh well nationalist have got to try, don't they
[17:45:08] <prospectacle> they're all like "we're the best" and everyone's like "hey actually I agree with that, how weird"
[17:45:19] <michealpwalls> Nationalist parties, historically, seem to have a rise when the economy and social stability of a nation wavers.
[17:45:25] <n1> i look at it this way, when i was 13 i thought UKIP and britain was great
[17:45:34] <n1> now i'm in my mid 20's, working for myself
[17:45:41] <michealpwalls> At least that's the trend I've seen. Even in very recent times. Look at Greece and Ukraine, for random examples :P
[17:45:45] <prospectacle> "anyone who's not us isn't the best" and everyone's like "I guess that logically follows from the previous statement"
[17:45:47] <n1> i think exiting the EU would be a really fucking bad idea
[17:46:02] <michealpwalls> I didn't think the UK was even *in* the EU?
[17:46:03] <prospectacle> n1, I agree
[17:46:11] <n1> michealpwalls, we're in the EU
[17:46:14] <n1> but we dont have the Euro
[17:46:22] <michealpwalls> Or are they in the EU but reserve their own currency?
[17:46:24] <michealpwalls> Ahh, I see.
[17:46:26] <prospectacle> the eu is going to end up a single country, like america, there's really no turning back at this point, it's just a matter of how soon
[17:46:26] <michealpwalls> Interesting!
[17:46:34] <michealpwalls> So you want your cake and eat it too, eh?! LOL
[17:46:35] <n1> and we still have passport checks, mainland europe is somewhat borderless
[17:46:36] <michealpwalls> You slimey limies :)
[17:46:37] <prospectacle> n1 and there language will be english, with or without england.
[17:46:57] <prospectacle> s/there/their/
[17:46:57] <SedBot> <prospectacle> n1 and their language will be english, with or without england.
[17:47:09] <prospectacle> it's only a matter of time
[17:47:09] <n1> i'm not sure about that really, french is pretty strong internationally
[17:47:16] <prospectacle> n1, where?
[17:47:21] <michealpwalls> omg French! Don't get me started (dull)
[17:47:24] <n1> and the EU doesn't really like the UK, so they might do it out of spite
[17:47:32] <n1> because we're always hating on the institution
[17:47:36] <prospectacle> n1, I assume you have travelled around the eu a bit?
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[17:47:39] <n1> so if we do exit, they will try to make life difficult
[17:47:43] <n1> i have
[17:47:49] <prospectacle> n1, what proportin of people you meet in eu speak english, vs french?
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[17:48:09] <n1> im not saying english is not by far the most common language
[17:48:14] <michealpwalls> The remnents of old empires clashing I suppose... French/Catholics vs English/Christians? LOL Something like that, anyways :P
[17:48:15] <n1> because it is, for better or worse
[17:48:27] <prospectacle> it totally is, irreversibly so, in my opinion
[17:48:28] <michealpwalls> Canada is dividing by that still, in many areas hehe.
[17:48:32] <michealpwalls> French Seperatists :)
[17:48:59] <n1> i think the EU does everything in multiple languages anyway
[17:49:11] <prospectacle> yes it does. I'm talking long term
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[17:49:18] <michealpwalls> What business sense does multi-language have, I wonder? :)
[17:49:29] <prospectacle> It will only build more centralised institutions, it has to. And english will only become more common, not less.
[17:50:06] <prospectacle> people are learning english all over asia, south american, europe,
[17:50:16] <michealpwalls> To declare your nation speaks x *or* y, I think that's counter productive. The point of a standard is to limit with the ultimate goal of eliminating variability no? To decrease barriers to entry? LOL...
[17:50:23] <michealpwalls> Iunno, maybe that's borderline racist.. I'll shutup :)
[17:50:26] <prospectacle> and unless the eu dis-bands it will have to solidify to survive. Monetary and fiscal centralisation to prevent the next crisis
[17:50:46] <prospectacle> it doesn't have to be official but english will be the common language of europe within a generation.
[17:50:59] <n1> and the richer nations in the EU believe that centralisation is whats causing the next crisis
[17:51:11] <prospectacle> n1, what do they propose?
[17:51:15] <n1> dragging germany, the uk, netherlands etc down with the ship when greece and portugal sinks
[17:51:25] <michealpwalls> A unified currency seems illogical to me..
[17:51:36] <n1> they propose going back to the good ol' days
[17:51:39] <n1> which means nothing
[17:51:41] <michealpwalls> As a system, I mean, that makes no sense when the parts are so diverse. Germany != Greece...
[17:51:46] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, canada has a unified currency.
[17:52:00] <prospectacle> america has one
[17:52:07] <prospectacle> australia does, too, the uk does.
[17:52:10] <michealpwalls> prospectacle: Look at the suffering in rural communities in Canada compared to urban centres..
[17:52:11] <prospectacle> they all started as separate states
[17:52:18] <michealpwalls> I think even here, you can see that unified currencies are not scalable..
[17:52:36] <prospectacle> michealpwalls that's a fair point. Would multiple currencies address that most effectively, or would some other policy?
[17:52:59] <michealpwalls> So to scale it to an entire friggin' continent (Europe) that's pretty irrational. How can a small nation such as Greece trade with the same currency as a large, booming nation such as Germany? That's not viable really, at least for Greece..
[17:53:06] <prospectacle> eu is the most interesting experiment going on today.
[17:53:12] <michealpwalls> It is!
[17:53:36] <prospectacle> I mean it has its problems, but lets not foget it has more gdp than the u.s.
[17:53:57] <prospectacle> and lets not forget what europe looked like 50 years ago by comparison
[17:53:59] <michealpwalls> What is the population of Europe compared to the U.S? :/
[17:54:02] * prospectacle is pro-eu
[17:54:02] <n1> we'll always split ourselves into ever smaller nations
[17:54:09] <n1> if the emotional arguments win
[17:54:20] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, it's about 400 million vs about 300 million
[17:54:21] <prospectacle> give or take
[17:54:47] <michealpwalls> I don't know what the solution is, though. I think it's pretty complicated stuff :)
[17:54:54] <n1> because everyone thinks where they were born/grew up/still live is special
[17:55:00] <prospectacle> n1, I'm all for smaller countries. as long as there's a good federation or confederation to keep the peace and prosperity
[17:55:03] <n1> and needs to be different from the place across the way
[17:55:12] <michealpwalls> I'm pretty agnostic in that sense, n1
[17:55:27] <michealpwalls> I couldnt' care less where I am LOL
[17:55:33] <prospectacle> a nation shouldn't exceed about 10 thousand people. practically speaking.
[17:56:18] <michealpwalls> China has an interesting setup. Anyone familiar?
[17:56:24] <michealpwalls> It's one nation, many systems..
[17:56:25] <prospectacle> If you divided 10k up into families, it's only about 100 families, that's sustainable
[17:56:28] <n1> ive been around the world enough to know that i have as much in common with people of other nations
[17:56:32] <n1> if not more, than with the people of my own
[17:56:37] <michealpwalls> That's the fundamental principle of China, as far as I understand.
[17:56:51] <n1> so why i would want to alienate myself from all those people
[17:56:52] <n1> i dont know.
[17:57:20] <prospectacle> n1, true. the trick is administration.
[17:57:46] <n1> it depends on how you view what a nation is
[17:57:54] <n1> is it a group of people with a shared background and culture
[17:57:55] <michealpwalls> I haven't traveled, really. I speak to people in other countries (Like we're doing now!) a lot in my free time, though.. I have to agree n1 :)
[17:57:59] <n1> or is it an economic/profit centre
[17:58:08] <michealpwalls> I feel more of a connection with Americans than I do my fellow Canadians :/
[17:58:14] <n1> and if it's the latter, some people will be always on the bottom of the pile
[17:58:20] <n1> and we'll end up with an international caste system
[17:58:34] <michealpwalls> ^ powered by money :P
[17:58:42] <michealpwalls> I think, isn't that what we have now?
[17:59:03] <n1> it is, just not explicitly
[17:59:11] <michealpwalls> That's why, essentially, I focus on myself and my family. I have for about 10 years now and it has propelled me from a very low status to approaching middle class now..
[17:59:14] <n1> but thats why im asking the question, what do we really want
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[17:59:19] <n1> currently we have the latter in the name of the former
[17:59:32] <michealpwalls> hehe
[17:59:41] <michealpwalls> There is a very rich class system in Canada
[17:59:46] <n1> michealpwalls, i understand that
[17:59:47] <michealpwalls> rich as in diverse
[17:59:53] <n1> but the problem with ignoring it and focusing on the family
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[18:00:09] <n1> is it's feeding the beast and just entrenching the unfair systems we have
[18:00:21] <n1> "dont pay attention to the man behind the curtain, work hard and you'll have a 60" TV"
[18:00:41] <michealpwalls> It's astonishing here, though. Many many people come from India to Canada and I have made friends with many at the College I'm studying in. What astonishes me is that in India, for example, the Class system ("Caste") is very clear and well known...
[18:00:57] <michealpwalls> However in Canada, it's so common for people in a particular class to be comletely unaware of the seperation...
[18:01:01] <n1> the class system somewhat implies you can move up or down in your class status
[18:01:19] <n1> a caste system, internationally, where nations are profit centres, that wouldnt be possible
[18:01:23] <n1> it would be against the systems design
[18:01:31] <michealpwalls> For example, one of my professors could not even *see* that there was different classes in Canada. She was convinced that there just was no class seperation at all.. That's so perplexing to me! :/
[18:01:55] <prospectacle> the class system is england is much deeper than I think is acknowledged on the surface. It used to be written-rules so to speak, now it's unwritten, but still...
[18:01:56] <michealpwalls> Oh! That's a good definition n1
[18:01:59] <michealpwalls> I like that :)
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[18:02:19] <n1> prospectacle, it was indeed written rules
[18:02:21] <michealpwalls> That's very true. Canada definately does not have a caste system, it has a class system.
[18:02:30] <n1> as when our 'democracy' came to being, only the land owners got a vote
[18:02:36] <n1> because they were the only people who could be trusted with it
[18:02:41] <prospectacle> I think we can equalise classes to the fairest extend possible, if the system of money were reformed.
[18:02:43] <michealpwalls> If you are at the bottom, you *can* climb up if you work hard and invest in yourself (It's not easy)..
[18:02:52] <prospectacle> At the moment it's based on debt, which is pretty horrible
[18:02:52] <n1> michealpwalls, you can indeed
[18:02:56] <prospectacle> It shoudl be based on land.
[18:03:06] <n1> but it depends on if you're climbing up by yourself or not
[18:03:10] <n1> or you're using other people to step on
[18:03:15] <michealpwalls> n1: But could anybody *be* a land owner?
[18:03:24] <n1> michealpwalls, in those days it was more complicated
[18:03:30] <n1> and technically, the crown owns everything.
[18:03:32] <n1> even today
[18:03:43] <michealpwalls> if they worked hard, I mean, saved money and bought some land? Even if small, they could then work that land for more money to get more land and etc. (Hypothetically speaking)
[18:03:50] <michealpwalls> Ah, the crown yea :/
[18:03:51] <prospectacle> n1, yes, which makes the question "what's the best way to administer the land"
[18:04:03] <prospectacle> I think land-use vouchers would be a good replacement for the current fiat money
[18:04:05] <michealpwalls> Well, again, LOL, this brings me back to what I was saying about the history of the American Republic..
[18:04:05] <n1> well thats the problem we have now, as a small country
[18:04:08] <prospectacle> simpler, fairer, more renewable
[18:04:12] <n1> with nearly 70 million people
[18:04:17] <michealpwalls> There is a reason they hold private property so sacred and I think you just explained why, n1..
[18:04:18] <michealpwalls> LOL
[18:04:33] <michealpwalls> Without priate property.. Without a fucking crown dictating who gets what, you can't possibly have freedom..
[18:04:35] <n1> average house price in the UK now is $418,000
[18:04:44] <prospectacle> n1 what is that in proportion to average in come.
[18:04:55] <prospectacle> In aus. it's like 4.5 times average national income. It's horrendous
[18:05:03] <n1> average wage is $40,000
[18:05:08] <n1> or 44
[18:05:11] <n1> so it's 10x here
[18:05:15] <prospectacle> holy crap
[18:05:20] <n1> and thats a national average
[18:05:25] <michealpwalls> In Canada, like the weather, it depends entirely *where* you want your land..
[18:05:26] <michealpwalls> LOL
[18:05:27] <n1> in London, where people actuall live
[18:05:29] <n1> it's far higher
[18:05:32] <michealpwalls> If you want it in Toronto.. Good fucking luck, sir :)
[18:05:43] <michealpwalls> If you want it in a rural area outside Toronto, you can get land dirt cheap...
[18:06:03] <n1> average house in London is nearly $800,000
[18:06:03] <michealpwalls> If you want to go even further, like up north.. Jesus they practically give the land claims away LOL
[18:06:18] <n1> and the wages are not that much higher really
[18:06:51] <n1> you can buy land here, relatively cheaply
[18:06:59] <n1> but you'll never EVER be able to build or do anything with it
[18:07:05] <michealpwalls> That's the catch here, though.. In rural areas, where can you work? :/
[18:07:15] <michealpwalls> So, although it's "cheap", there's no money in those areas..
[18:07:18] <n1> just look at it, and wait for the crown to buy it back, so it can sell it to a property developer
[18:07:34] <prospectacle> hmm, yeah land is the problem
[18:07:36] <michealpwalls> LOL in Toronto it's expensive, but there's some incredibly high paying jobs in Toronto, too. That's the heart of Canada's financial industry..
[18:07:49] <n1> michealpwalls, London is the same
[18:07:57] <n1> but that doesnt mean all 20 million people in the london commuter area
[18:08:00] <n1> are in the financial services
[18:08:03] <prospectacle> the crown could release more land to buy or develop, but property owners would be against it, as they want the price to keep going up
[18:08:08] <n1> or indeed in high paying jobs in financial services
[18:08:15] <michealpwalls> Indeed. That's what inflates the prices.. That's also why *scaling* that currency system to an entire continent (Europe) is a crazy idea LMAO
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[18:08:30] <n1> they're saying London housing is going up mainly because of foreigners
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[18:08:41] <n1> we're having the chinese and middle east millionaires buying it all up
[18:08:46] <n1> for when things go bad back home
[18:08:50] <michealpwalls> That's just crazy talk
[18:08:52] <michealpwalls> LOL
[18:08:59] <michealpwalls> I know what you're saying, though.. The same is saidi here
[18:09:09] <michealpwalls> Only about immgirants mainly from India.
[18:09:10] <michealpwalls> LOL!
[18:09:22] <prospectacle> there's lots in the news lately about chinese buying expensive sydney properties
[18:09:24] <prospectacle> as if that's the problem
[18:09:33] <n1> "London is in the middle of a severe housing crisis, yet there are around 50,000 empty homes across the city. "
[18:09:42] <prospectacle> the problem is that property investors would make sure any government was fired if they took action to reduce property prices
[18:10:03] <n1> our whole economy is based on real estate forever going up
[18:10:08] <michealpwalls> Yes
[18:10:09] <n1> and financial services forever being more important
[18:10:12] <prospectacle> n1, yes it's the "eternal bubble"
[18:10:13] <michealpwalls> real estate (flex)
[18:10:22] <michealpwalls> Buying a home is "a good investment", they say :)
[18:10:28] <prospectacle> it's dumb
[18:10:41] <n1> yup
[18:10:44] <michealpwalls> Everyone should buy the most expensive home the bank allows them to buy, too.
[18:10:46] <michealpwalls> Don't you know? :P
[18:10:51] <n1> we all need somewhere to live...
[18:11:07] <prospectacle> I say base money on land. Give everyone total_value_ofland/number_of_citizens vouchers each month, and charge them as rent.
[18:11:08] <n1> more expensive you buy now, more it will be worth later!
[18:11:09] <crutchy> better to buy in a regional area where prices not inflated
[18:11:18] <prospectacle> then everyone starts on an equal footing and can decide what is important to them.
[18:11:27] <michealpwalls> When you sell, you must sell at the highest possible price you can find a sucker to pay, also. This sets a precedent for the neighbourhood, as it is the "comp price", or "comparable price" not set for all future sales in that neighbourhood.
[18:11:35] <michealpwalls> So by that system... How can the price go any direction *BUT* up?
[18:11:35] <n1> "Investors from China, Russia and the Middle East are snapping up new build properties in London and fuelling a surge in prices, research has found.
[18:11:35] <n1> Around 65-70 per cent of new build homes – which foreign buyers prefer - in prime London locations have gone to overseas purchasers in the last two years, according to data from estate agents Chesterton Humberts."
[18:11:36] <michealpwalls> LOL!
[18:11:39] <michealpwalls> It's the system, hehe
[18:12:07] <n1> chinese, russians and arabs buying 60-70% of all new builds in London.
[18:12:20] <n1> "This international appetite has resulted in new build residential prices in the capital soaring by a whopping 56.3 per cent from January 2009 to June 2013."
[18:12:20] <prospectacle> I don't think news organisations are in a big conspiracy, or anything like that, but it sure is easier to report on chinese billionaires, than it is to address the underlying reason property prices are so high.
[18:12:28] <michealpwalls> crutchy: That's the bottom line, I think.. "Location, Location, Location!"
[18:12:30] <michealpwalls> hehe
[18:12:40] <prospectacle> you mean n1
[18:12:44] <michealpwalls> Maybe
[18:12:46] <michealpwalls> LOL
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[18:13:10] <n1> problem is with the 'real reason'
[18:13:20] <n1> that the people who votes pensions are tied into the 'real reason' not quitting
[18:13:46] <crutchy> i bought a home regionally. the price isn't going to skyrocket, but it's not going to plummet either. your own home that you live in is also the only asset you don't have to pay capital gains tax on (in australia anyways), so it's the best investment (as long as you're not overpaying in the first place)
[18:14:01] <n1> crutchy, thats my overall plan
[18:14:09] <n1> but i already accept im going to have to commute to london
[18:14:17] <n1> because i can live elsewhere, but the work is here
[18:14:27] <crutchy> yeah that's the catch i guess
[18:15:08] <crutchy> you can buy a home regionally as an investment property and live in london. then move into it when you retire maybe. not sure how tax works then but might be ok
[18:15:12] <prospectacle> oh sorry for incorrectly correcting you michealpwalls, I didn't see crutchty was back.
[18:15:14] <prospectacle> Hi crutchy
[18:15:21] <n1> but as noted earlier, the average house price in the UK
[18:15:25] <n1> is still 10x the average wage
[18:15:26] <crutchy> hi prospectacle :-)
[18:15:41] <n1> so my 'regional' living, will be in another country
[18:16:03] <crutchy> lol
[18:16:03] <prospectacle> n1 10x is crazy, and yet people seem to survive
[18:16:10] <n1> they do
[18:16:13] <prospectacle> n1, I thought 4.5 was high
[18:16:15] <crutchy> come to oz. just not in a boat :-P
[18:16:17] <prospectacle> It used to be 2
[18:16:20] <n1> until they dont get paid
[18:16:33] <n1> all the people surviving are living month-to-month
[18:16:37] <n1> and using credit
[18:16:48] <n1> to survive on paying interest only or very low mortgage repayments
[18:16:50] <prospectacle> it was 2x average wage about 30-40 yrs ago in aus. Probably most places (that are of similar level of development)
[18:17:02] <n1> because why not, the house will be worth more next week
[18:17:06] <n1> so why pay off your mortgage
[18:17:19] <prospectacle> I don't want to buy a house on debt. I know it sounds dumb but I want to rent until I save up enough to buy a house in cash
[18:17:39] <prospectacle> rent is flexible, you can move
[18:17:45] <n1> i dont blame people here, a lot of people i know, went into the social care system
[18:17:55] <n1> because it's the only way you have a hope of having stability
[18:18:01] <n1> and a roof over your heard
[18:18:03] <n1> head*
[18:18:26] <n1> when it costs $600+ a month for a room in a shared house with shared facilities
[18:18:32] <n1> i cant blame people for using the welfare state
[18:18:39] <crutchy> lol not sure if its already come up but apparently in some places in the US between '02 and '06 people stopped working cos they thought their houses were going to appreciate more each year than what a salary would bring in and they just borrowed against that speculative increase in value lol
[18:19:11] <crutchy> i guess as long as you found a sucker to buy you out you came away better off
[18:19:21] <n1> the way it works here
[18:19:34] <n1> is people have a mortgage, and use that to leverage on a 'buy-to-let' mortgage
[18:19:38] <n1> which neither they pay off
[18:19:43] <n1> but use the sky high rent from the buy to let
[18:19:48] <n1> to supplement their normal earnings
[18:19:51] <Cyprus> you could easily do that right now in san fran
[18:19:55] <prospectacle> I know a guy who invested big in property, cause it had been going up for 10 years
[18:19:58] <prospectacle> now he's a million in debt
[18:20:08] <prospectacle> even after taking into account the value of the properties
[18:20:12] <prospectacle> I mean even if he sold everything
[18:20:31] <prospectacle> don't bet on the housing bubble
[18:20:34] <prospectacle> just don't do it
[18:20:49] <n1> i never will
[18:20:52] <Cyprus> alternately, if you're going to bet on it, go all out
[18:21:01] <Cyprus> you either win huge, or just declare bankruptcy
[18:21:02] <prospectacle> lol @ cyprus
[18:21:02] <michealpwalls> n1: That's exactly what I do. I live outside Toronto but work in Toronto. It just makes sense :)
[18:21:38] <crutchy> might get some sleep guys
[18:21:41] <n1> problem with the living outside of london here, is outside of london is expensive because the people who run companies in london
[18:21:42] <crutchy> 2.21am here
[18:21:45] <n1> dont actually want to live there
[18:21:50] <n1> so you end up getting pushed further out
[18:21:55] <crutchy> cyas tomoz
[18:21:57] <n1> and then spend 4 hours a day in traffic
[18:22:02] crutchy is now known as crutchy|zzz
[18:22:08] <michealpwalls> haha n1 yea that's the fear.. That as more people do that, the areas outside Toronto inflate too :(
[18:22:12] <prospectacle> n1, when you look at u.k. on google earth, as I'm sure you've done, london is the beast that ate the country
[18:22:18] <prospectacle> bye crutchy
[18:22:20] <n1> yup
[18:22:26] <n1> thats exactly it, prospectacle
[18:22:34] <prospectacle> I like your tube though
[18:22:37] <michealpwalls> LOL the city I'm in is rapidly inflating as so many are employed in the larger cities like Etobicoke, Missi. and Toronto :/
[18:22:37] <prospectacle> new train every 2 minutes
[18:22:40] <n1> the tube is great
[18:22:44] <Cyprus> that's capitalism for you, people are willing to pay more to live there, its the design, not a flaw
[18:22:46] <n1> but, its only great for north london.
[18:22:54] <michealpwalls> haha prospectacle
[18:22:57] <n1> south of the river it's like wtf happened?1
[18:23:00] <michealpwalls> That's funny
[18:23:10] <prospectacle> michaelpwalls, I'm not even exaggerating for effect. Literally every 2 minutes
[18:23:29] <michealpwalls> That's pretty intense LOL
[18:23:36] <michealpwalls> I think that dwarfs Toronto :O
[18:23:37] <prospectacle> I saw a stand-up comedian who summed it up perfectly. "Oh now I've missed my train I'll be late what am I going to.. oh here's one"
[18:23:49] <michealpwalls> haha
[18:24:18] <prospectacle> yeah I think it dwarfs everything
[18:24:24] <prospectacle> also the tube is full of french people
[18:24:33] <prospectacle> that's not a good or a bad thing. But it's true
[18:24:35] <michealpwalls> tube?
[18:24:41] <prospectacle> the subway in london
[18:24:43] <michealpwalls> ohh
[18:24:48] <michealpwalls> hehe the lingo :)
[18:25:36] <prospectacle> I think that's what they call it
[18:25:37] <Cyprus> i wish we could get decent mass transit here in the us
[18:25:46] <prospectacle> cyprus, yeah same here (for australia)
[18:25:47] <dentonj> *yawn*
[18:25:53] <prospectacle> morning dentonj
[18:26:03] <Cyprus> too many nuts like crutchy for that to ever happen
[18:26:08] <dentonj> evening
[18:26:39] <michealpwalls> We have absolutely frustrating mass transit in my city.. It drives me crazy :|
[18:26:44] <Cyprus> you aussies almost got a great communications system though before it got neutered
[18:26:48] <michealpwalls> I support Google Buses :)
[18:26:49] <michealpwalls> LOL
[18:27:06] <prospectacle> cyprus, yeah tell me about it. It's slowly rolling out though, based on past momentum
[18:27:07] <dentonj> brother rides a Google bus
[18:27:17] <prospectacle> cyprus. a few people I know have it. they say it's amazing
[18:27:20] <Cyprus> they changed it to FTTN though, it just got raped
[18:27:52] <michealpwalls> Fuck mass transit, it's bs. The city I live in pays outrageous taxes and ontop of that pays outrageous bus fares and yet the transit system is completely horseshit. I think it's clearly either horribly mismanaged or very corrupt LOL.
[18:27:53] <prospectacle> best analogy I heard was like it's a third-world person experiencing first-world plumbing. i.e. you can use as much as want for anything you want, you won't run out, you won't prevent someone in the other room using it.
[18:28:08] <michealpwalls> That's why I can't disagree in any way with the idea of corporate transit systems like Google, Apple and MS Buses.
[18:28:37] <Cyprus> right, because private systems are the solution, instead of just fixing the public option
[18:28:48] <Cyprus> i cant wait till i can only drive my ford on the ford interstate
[18:29:00] <michealpwalls> 'cause not only the reliability, but it's the practical aspect.. On public transit for 1 hour I'm *totaly* unproductive... No wifi/seating/hydro etc. The private systems provide a productive environment where I could work for that 1 hour..
[18:29:44] <michealpwalls> LMAO Cyprus. I get that. I don't disagree with that opinion.. Except hwo do you propose a single employee "fix" the public transit system? :/
[18:29:49] <prospectacle> micheal, depends on the service, and the place. wifi and reliability are not a public/private thing
[18:29:51] <michealpwalls> All I care about is getting to college and work on time...
[18:29:53] <michealpwalls> Seriously.
[18:30:04] <michealpwalls> I can't affect any change with this broken system...
[18:30:10] <Cyprus> bullshit
[18:30:12] <michealpwalls> In this corrupt city that doesn't listen to me..
[18:30:53] <michealpwalls> LOL how can I affect change when I need to be at work, college and still find time to be some sort of role model for my children? It's completely impractical iunno :/
[18:31:00] <Cyprus> #firstworldproblems
[18:31:08] <michealpwalls> hahah touche
[18:31:12] <n1> lol
[18:32:18] <prospectacle> you can't affect change before the next bus you have to catch. I think we can all agree on that
[18:32:22] <prospectacle> But you can affect change
[18:32:29] <michealpwalls> haha
[18:32:48] <michealpwalls> How though? I vote for a government that wants to improve the bus system every election.. They don't get in.
[18:32:55] <michealpwalls> So, beyond that, what is my option guys? :)
[18:33:14] <michealpwalls> A conservative government gets in everytime, by a fucking landslide.
[18:33:15] <michealpwalls> LOL
[18:33:45] <Cyprus> yeah, i have the same problem, surrounded by conservative idiots
[18:33:49] <Cyprus> im trying to move
[18:33:54] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, no one is claiming you have the superpower to change the government overnight, but is voting the limit of your ability to make a difference?
[18:33:59] <michealpwalls> I'm all for paying the taxes to improve it.. Apparently nobody else is. So in my opinion, let my company provide abus then and fuck everybody else. Let them enjoy their conservative government.
[18:34:05] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, are there not ways to influence the votes of others?
[18:34:10] <michealpwalls> I know that's harsh.. Pretty backwards thinking, but I give up at this point (rofl)
[18:34:30] <michealpwalls> I don't know of any? I don't have time to try and affect the opinions of a city that's crazytalk :O
[18:34:47] <Cyprus> if facts worked, they wouldn't be conservative to begin with
[18:34:51] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, I only said "of others" things have a knock-on effect
[18:35:23] <michealpwalls> Ah, like exponential growth (If I can change one mind, they can change one mind etc.)
[18:35:31] <prospectacle> I agree it's a lot of effort, I don't do it myself, but you must admit it can be done. That voting is not the end of democracy but the beginning.
[18:35:37] <michealpwalls> But that runs the risk of being in the spotlight of the government in power. That doesnt' at all apeal to me :O
[18:35:41] <michealpwalls> That idea, I mean..
[18:36:03] <prospectacle> fine, it doesn't appeal. that's understandable
[18:36:55] <michealpwalls> I used to participate. My participation stopped in 2010 when police beat up and arrested 1,000 protesters :)
[18:37:00] <michealpwalls> The message: We're not listening.
[18:37:05] <michealpwalls> And so, fuck it.
[18:37:07] <michealpwalls> LOL
[18:37:25] <prospectacle> yeah, it's not a good time for mass disobedience
[18:37:29] <prospectacle> not on the street anyway
[18:37:54] <n1> you can protest as much as you like, as long as you don't expect it to make a change
[18:37:58] <n1> or use it to make a difference
[18:38:02] <michealpwalls> lol
[18:38:12] <n1> like the million people who protested against the iraq war
[18:38:20] <n1> that was fine because they knew they wouldnt accomplish anything, and didnt try to
[18:38:48] <michealpwalls> It's worse when you're "anonymous", prospectacle. I don't mean the "hacking group", either. Exibit A: Bradley Manning.
[18:38:50] <michealpwalls> LOL
[18:39:23] <michealpwalls> He's just the first name that came to my head 'cause it's such high profile. The message there is that, our society does not care for "whistleblowers" or people that work anonymously :)
[18:39:24] <n1> "have a nice day out, wave your sign, march, but make sure you're back at work on Monday."
[18:39:30] <michealpwalls> LOL n1
[18:39:38] <prospectacle> michealpwalls, I have a lot of respect for what manning did, but he wasn't a protestor, he was a whistle-blower. They get stomped on a lot harder, in general.
[18:39:44] <michealpwalls> Exactly.. And make sure you dont' do it when we have guests, or we'll kick your ass LOL
[18:39:53] <n1> yup
[18:40:03] <michealpwalls> hah that's what happened in 2010
[18:41:12] <michealpwalls> Apparently the protesters were emberassing the foreign guests LOL. So they suspended the rights and made a make-shift "jail" (Read: a fenced in area with porta-potties) and beat up and arrested over 1,000 people LOL. Some where taken by CSIS, our version of the CIA and interrogated, threatened with deportation and etc. Good times!
[18:41:13] <michealpwalls> LOL
[18:41:26] <michealpwalls> That's when I threw in the towel, seriously. LOL it's depressing :P
[18:41:54] <n1> michealpwalls
[18:42:03] <n1> you're just telling them "well done, your tactics worked!"
[18:42:10] <michealpwalls> haha i know, that's why it's depressing
[18:42:31] <michealpwalls> But wth can you do? It's like the whole of society is telling them what they did is wrong (the protesters!) by accepting what the police and government did..
[18:42:33] <n1> one thing i'd like to mention
[18:42:43] <n1> i went to Occupy LSX (London) one day
[18:43:01] <n1> and what i saw when i was there for a whole day, talking to people
[18:43:13] <n1> couldnt have been further from how it was shown on the media
[18:43:34] <n1> what the newspapers, radio and television reported was fuck all like what i saw when i spent a day there
[18:43:54] <michealpwalls> The Occupy movement happened after the G20 "incident" happened here, so I strongly believe that's why we didn't really have much of an Occupy movement at all here. The G20 in 2010 completely neutered our will to participate in any significant way :)
[18:44:22] <michealpwalls> Othe rthings as well, esp. in Quebec
[18:44:30] <michealpwalls> Quebec police are notorious here hehe
[18:44:43] <prospectacle> ok I'm out.
[18:44:49] <michealpwalls> Take care!
[18:44:51] <prospectacle> Have a pleasant day people
[18:44:54] <n1> laters, prospectacle
[18:45:02] <michealpwalls> it's saturday, of course I will! You too :)
[18:45:07] <prospectacle> I wish you all the most prosperous and enjoyable of experiences
[18:45:12] -!- prospectacle [prospectacle!~3a6b41d0@t50-554-50-398.mit014.act.optusnet.com.au] has parted #Soylent
[18:46:28] * n1 listens to; aceyalone - workin' man's blues
[18:50:06] <michealpwalls> I think police officers should have a hat/helmet/face mounted camera that cannot be tampered with :)
[18:50:15] <michealpwalls> Just like their cars do
[18:50:41] <michealpwalls> dash cams that cannot be turned off or tampered with that always record the incident.. Their body should have this to show their POV at all times, as well.
[18:50:47] <n1> it doesnt really make a difference, michealpwalls
[18:50:57] <n1> there's plenty of bad things caught on camera by bystanders
[18:51:03] <michealpwalls> true
[18:51:05] <n1> and an investigation happens
[18:51:14] <n1> "officers cleared of wrong doing"
[18:51:20] <michealpwalls> Although in my country we are not legally allowed to film an officer...
[18:51:28] <michealpwalls> It's "obstruction of justice" or some retarded thing
[18:51:44] <michealpwalls> No wait, it "endangers" them, I think it is!
[18:51:44] <n1> yeah, i remember reading about that
[18:51:46] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Miniature Wind Turbines to Charge your Phone - http://sylnt.us - just-so-much-hot-air
[18:51:58] <n1> i think some US states have similar
[18:52:09] <michealpwalls> The system is insane to me, iunno :/
[18:52:16] <n1> i dont know the 'rules' on it here
[18:52:33] <n1> police are too busy doing what ever it is they're doing wrong
[18:52:38] <n1> to have the time to tell someone to not film them doing it
[18:52:51] <michealpwalls> It all goes back to why I gave up honestly. I know that's defeatist, probably many lose respect for me but meh. Try living here and growing up here and see if you don't share my attitude after 29 years and 2 kids to worry about :)
[18:53:33] <n1> http://www.telegraph.co.uk
[18:53:49] <michealpwalls> hehe I just go with the flow now, fuck it. I go to work and queitly do my thing like a good little citizen. Build something for my kids when they grow up so they don't have to climb as far as I did (From the fuckin' bottom LOL)
[18:54:27] <n1> if you go on the article, skip to about a minute in the video
[18:54:45] <michealpwalls> Wow that is just crazytalk! (That article)
[18:54:50] <n1> that police officer got £400,000 compensation for the distress caused by his actions
[18:54:55] <michealpwalls> Seems about right, though :)
[18:55:01] <n1> because other officers made fun of him for doing it
[18:55:03] <n1> or something
[18:56:21] <n1> "Mr Whatley won a £20,000 payout from the police over the damage caused to his Range Rover."
[18:56:36] <n1> "He was later ordered to pay £235 after being found guilty of speeding and failing to stop for police."
[18:56:47] <michealpwalls> wow lol
[18:56:49] <n1> the system works!
[18:56:56] <n1> ¬_¬
[18:57:01] <michealpwalls> haha it sure does!
[18:57:48] <michealpwalls> See that's just it, right... A lot of people are angry and think the "system is broken" but I fundamentally disagree. As a systems analysis I think it's pretty fucking basic.. The system is working quite well, people just fail to see the goal here LOL!
[18:58:34] <n1> "An inquest jury found in May 2011 that he had been unlawfully killed. Harwood, a constable with the Territorial Support Group of London's Metropolitan Police Service, was charged that month with manslaughter and was found not guilty on 19 July 2012 at Southwark Crown Court."
[18:58:45] <n1> that quote is from an unrelated story
[18:59:13] <michealpwalls> hehe
[18:59:13] <n1> there's video of a guy walking buy the police defensive line, one steps out to push him over
[18:59:28] <n1> the man pushed over dies minutes later
[18:59:40] <n1> 'unlawfully killed' ... no one found guilty of it
[19:00:10] <michealpwalls> lol
[19:00:20] <michealpwalls> makes perfect sense!
[19:00:30] <n1> or the Jean Charles de Menezes
[19:00:36] <n1> no one was guilty of anything there, afaik
[19:00:57] <n1> despite an innocent brazillian man being shot several times when being pinned down by police
[19:01:43] <n1> they just made it all up as they went along, basically everything the police came out with when it happened, was later found to be a lie.
[19:02:27] <n1> the family got about £100,000 compensation for it though.
[19:02:49] <n1> the UK police have a terrible record when it comes to shooting people.
[19:02:59] <michealpwalls> law suits are a good avenue to affect change from what I've seen here
[19:03:21] <n1> but to put that in context of the earlier story, a police officer gets £400,000 for being bullied
[19:03:36] <n1> the family of an innocent man executed, gets £100,000
[19:03:46] <michealpwalls> The only real progress made with the police department in my city has come from recent class action lawsuits with penalties in the millions. It forces the government to take action as they ultimately foot the bill for the police by extension
[19:04:03] <michealpwalls> So that sends a message really that they cannot ignore, 'cause it fucks with the only thing government cares about ($$)
[19:04:15] <n1> here the reform would be...
[19:04:18] <n1> stop the press talking about it
[19:04:20] <michealpwalls> LMAO
[19:06:25] <michealpwalls> The other odd idea I had was to do away with "federal" police.. (FBI in the U.S, RCMP in Canada) and expand the power of regional police to investigate and charge members of other regional police (If that makes any sense?)
[19:07:25] <n1> interesting idea
[19:07:32] <n1> but just as open to corruption, if not more so
[19:08:06] <n1> as the people running the regional departments will all be friends, and have to have meetings forever more about national matters
[19:08:12] <n1> a new old boys club
[19:08:20] <michealpwalls> Perhaps
[19:08:30] <michealpwalls> But at least there will be so many more options, right? :/
[19:08:39] <n1> who decides who investigates who
[19:08:43] <michealpwalls> Rather than "Oh, complaint? Contact RCMP.. Complaint with RCMP? Contact RCMP..."
[19:08:50] <n1> and who decides what needs investigating
[19:09:14] <michealpwalls> Indeed.. So if the regional department to the south of your city doesn't deem it "interesting", you can try the one to your north..
[19:09:42] <n1> there's a case in the UK right now, about an ex-spy for the british government, seeking compensation for the governments failure of duty to protect him
[19:09:49] <michealpwalls> Or whatevs in the hopes of finding one that *will* investigate. Rather than *only* being able to file a complaint with your regional department or the federal one that doesn't giev a shit about anything other than intelligence and seperatists hehe
[19:09:58] <n1> and the government has made a public defence as to why they did what they were supposed to
[19:10:06] <n1> but the law allows them to make a 'private defence' also
[19:10:13] <michealpwalls> hrmm
[19:10:55] <n1> so they give a public statement saying, we did x y and z, so we shouldnt be prosecuted.... but they also get to say in private "ignore all this and that, it's important, for public perception, this doesn't make it to court, it would be a national security disaster"
[19:11:22] <n1> and that will hold just as much weight, but we'll never get to see the evidence why it wont make it to court
[19:11:24] <michealpwalls> lol!
[19:12:00] <michealpwalls> I think, mostly Canada is a snapshot of how the UK was at some time in period.. over that time the UK has evolved and grown more liberal, but it's like Canada has preserved that snapshot with great pride :/
[19:12:15] <michealpwalls> period in time
[19:12:22] <n1> the UK has become more liberal, kicking and screaming all the way
[19:12:27] <michealpwalls> haha
[19:12:39] <n1> and if the next election goes the way i expect it to
[19:12:45] <n1> we'll be heading right back to the 1950's
[19:13:02] <michealpwalls> I suppose Canada has in many areas, especially like women's rights and such like that..
[19:13:12] <janrinok> hi guys
[19:13:16] <n1> hi janrinok
[19:13:19] <michealpwalls> So I guess I should revise that. But as a whole I think there's a lot of room for improvement :/
[19:13:22] <janrinok> n1 lo
[19:13:26] <michealpwalls> Hi janrinok :)
[19:13:44] <janrinok> michealpwalls: hi, carry on with the conversation, I'll try to pick it up
[19:13:50] <michealpwalls> heehe
[19:14:07] <n1> there's a lot of room for improvement everywhere
[19:14:15] <michealpwalls> I was peer pressured, in a friendly way lol, to talk about politics!
[19:14:18] <n1> but in the UK, there is no national will for progress
[19:14:20] <n1> because thats not british
[19:14:29] <michealpwalls> But your arrival is a great segway for me to slip out like a ninja
[19:14:32] <michealpwalls> heehee!
[19:14:54] <janrinok> don't let one of the mods get you - politics, religion and sex are banned topics.....
[19:15:09] <michealpwalls> Are they really? :O
[19:15:13] <janrinok> yes
[19:15:14] <michealpwalls> I hadn't really realized LOL
[19:15:15] <michealpwalls> sorry
[19:15:40] <janrinok> I'm not a mod - don't have to apologise to me!
[19:15:49] <n1> i think we're ok, as we're not arguing
[19:16:05] <janrinok> debating might be ok....
[19:16:21] <n1> highlighting cases and discussing personal experiences, no ideologies here.
[19:16:44] <janrinok> damn, now it's gone quiet - I feel like a party-pooper. Pretend I never arrived...
[19:16:58] <michealpwalls> haha yes esp. 'cause I have given up, so I am completely accepting of all idealogies LOL!
[19:17:16] <n1> lol
[19:17:32] <n1> janrinok, probably for the best, i really dont need to the stress right now
[19:17:43] <janrinok> n1 lol who does?
[19:17:46] <n1> the futility is maddening
[19:17:59] <michealpwalls> hehe indeed
[19:18:13] <janrinok> so who has been doing what today?
[19:18:28] <n1> i've been mostly having a headache and feeling sick
[19:18:40] <janrinok> sorry to hear that - self induced?
[19:18:57] <n1> just a continuation really
[19:19:01] <michealpwalls> Why is "heartbleed" such a massively hyped thing? Security vulnerabilities are discovered all the time and on top of a workaround (Turning off openssl's heartbeat..) and solution (upgrading openssl) I don't see why it's so hyped..
[19:19:03] <n1> from not sleeping
[19:19:05] <michealpwalls> Anyone have more insight? :)
[19:19:53] <janrinok> well it's been abused by the NSA, it has left commerce world-wide open to crime, it has been exploited by the bad guys. but other than that its overhyped...
[19:20:00] <n1> i dont know really, it's a big critical vulnerability that has been around for a long time which seems to have basically made all security protocols worthless
[19:20:16] <michealpwalls> LOL janrinok!
[19:20:44] <n1> someone took the time to come up with a name for it too
[19:20:46] <n1> which helps
[19:20:50] <janrinok> no its a big issue, and it also disproves the 'many eyes' theory at least in part for OS software.
[19:21:08] <n1> say what, janrinok?
[19:21:16] <michealpwalls> so.. but *has* it been widespread aused though? It is not as though there has been an exploit in the wild for a long time, or has there?
[19:21:37] <n1> i read an article yesterday that the NSA has been using it since 2009?
[19:21:47] <michealpwalls> wow really??
[19:21:48] <n1> might have the wrong year on that
[19:21:51] <n1> but something like that
[19:22:02] <janrinok> Well they say that open source is secure because so many people see the source code that bugs and intentional malware would be found quickly. It seems that we are a few years late on this one.
[19:22:12] <michealpwalls> that's probs. for their "Tailored Access" program
[19:22:44] <janrinok> story went out on the front page at 03:08 UTC this morning.
[19:22:52] <n1> but of course, the NSA say they had no idea
[19:22:52] <michealpwalls> I used to think that, janrinok.. But as I get more and more experience in this industry (software development) I agree less and less :/
[19:22:58] <n1> because the NSA has always been honest
[19:23:29] <michealpwalls> Firefox is the prime example... Just because something is open soruce, does not mean people *are* looking.. LOL. The people that are looking may not be qualified to even know what they should be looking for..
[19:23:33] <n1> the problem i have with the NSA saying "we didnt know until it became public"
[19:23:36] <michealpwalls> Esp. the complex mathematic models.
[19:23:37] <n1> then wtf are they getting paid for
[19:23:57] <janrinok> Not many people look at the source code. The guy who is responsible has put his hands up to a genuine error, which looks truthful.
[19:24:10] <michealpwalls> NSA.. honest? Isn't that part of their (And the CIA) job description, to be descrete?
[19:24:16] <michealpwalls> I'm not trolling, either ^
[19:24:17] <michealpwalls> Being serious
[19:24:22] <n1> indeed
[19:24:52] <michealpwalls> They have a "Tailored Access" capability that they boast allows them to break into any system the government needs access to. It's like one of their "products" LOL
[19:24:53] <n1> if they were being discreet
[19:24:58] <n1> they wouldnt have made a statement at all
[19:25:04] <michealpwalls> In order to do that, they'd *need* to sit ontop of vulnerabilities they have discovered, or bought...
[19:25:13] <michealpwalls> Many organizations, like Microsoft, *sell* vulnerabilities...
[19:25:20] <janrinok> The NSA has two roles: one defensive and the other offensive. The defensive is meant to take priority. So defending US commerce from abuse should have been the default rather than listening in to politicians conversations etc
[19:25:39] <n1> they defend US commerce by denying their offensive actions
[19:25:50] <michealpwalls> Indeed.. Again, in order to *defend* the U.S government machines, the NSA must know of all possible vulnerabilities out there.. Not only to defend but also to attack think about it ;)
[19:26:12] <n1> if the access for the NSA is put in their intentionally, in some ways its better.. if they find vulnerabilities and sit on them to use them
[19:26:19] <janrinok> they could have done a lot to protect the whole of the US, - if they know SSL is broken so do the other side perhaps?
[19:26:22] <n1> then it means the bad guys also have that access too
[19:26:29] <michealpwalls> The only way to really do that is to audit the systems yourself while also crawling all the markets for the sale of vulnerabilities they haven't discovered in their audits. That's how i'd go about doing it, at least :P
[19:26:30] <n1> be they chinese, russian or independent.
[19:26:46] <michealpwalls> n1: But, they can make a honeypot...
[19:27:04] <michealpwalls> n1: They *know* it's vulnerable.. So they can assume the bad guys will use it against the government... So they can use this as their advantage.
[19:27:08] <michealpwalls> Think in terms of strategy right? :)
[19:27:11] <n1> that applies to both sides
[19:27:13] <michealpwalls> This *is* war they're thinking about...
[19:27:19] <n1> especially when the chinese are now making a lot of networking gear
[19:27:26] <michealpwalls> If they disclose it publicly.. The bad guys *also* get the patch..
[19:27:45] <michealpwalls> But if they sit on it.. They can queitly patch government machines while also adding it to their Tailored Access program
[19:27:52] <janrinok> So all these scams where personal details have been stolen could also have been prevented? How many Americans have had their IDs abused?
[19:28:05] <michealpwalls> That's true. But that's what insurance is for ;)
[19:28:23] <michealpwalls> The Chinese, I think, is what this is all about. Lets call a fucking duck a duck, guys.
[19:28:27] <michealpwalls> They are constantly attacking our networks..
[19:28:28] <michealpwalls> LOL
[19:28:37] <n1> they are, just as we're attacking theirs
[19:28:39] <michealpwalls> Stealing corporate and government secrets in ridiculous volumes
[19:28:40] <janrinok> maybe
[19:28:53] <n1> and there's nothing stopping us creating false flags
[19:28:59] <n1> with all our access to windows machines in china
[19:29:06] <n1> "look how theyre constantly going after us!"
[19:29:09] <michealpwalls> That sounded racist, sorry, I have absolutely nothing against Chinese people. I should have said "the Chinese government"
[19:29:21] <janrinok> or is that what 'they' want us to think. (And you can go up your own backside in every decreasing circles with this argument)
[19:29:29] <michealpwalls> haha janrinok. Touche :)
[19:29:31] <n1> indeed, janrinok
[19:29:32] <michealpwalls> It could very well be ;)
[19:29:40] <n1> thats the whole point i think
[19:29:48] <michealpwalls> That's the greatest problem with these agencies... Their descretion makes it hard to really say :/
[19:29:53] <janrinok> If you can't trust your Govt to defend you, then who do you turn to?
[19:29:57] <michealpwalls> Are they protecting us... Are they hearding us like sheep? Who really knows. LOL!
[19:30:21] <n1> i trust the government to defend... my economic interests if have a certain net worth
[19:30:44] <n1> although they may defend me as a byproduct of other peoples economic interests, if i am a productive worker.
[19:30:56] <janrinok> Its an interesting discussion but not one that can be resolved, because those that know aren't saying anything. - other than Mr Snowden...
[19:31:08] <michealpwalls> Well, yea I mean as a collective I trust that my government has the interests of the wealthy elite of my country at heart, which by extension provides me with a lot of protections and benefits LOL.
[19:31:08] <n1> quite true
[19:31:19] <n1> michealpwalls, exactly my point
[19:31:21] <michealpwalls> So I mean, Iunno. I'm inclined to trust the agencies :/
[19:31:28] <michealpwalls> As crazy as that sounds? LOL
[19:31:38] <n1> with your current position, i think you're right to
[19:31:42] <michealpwalls> It's like, I'm the really bad player on the baseball team.. But the team keeps winning. So it's like, fuck it. GO TEAM GO!
[19:31:42] <michealpwalls> LMAO
[19:31:51] <janrinok> You have to believe in something or someone.
[19:31:53] <n1> as you've made it very clear you're looking to just protecting yourself and your family
[19:31:59] <michealpwalls> Indeed
[19:32:10] <n1> you're not looking for political change or economic change, just to preserve yourself and your family
[19:32:14] <n1> which is what you're supposed to be doing
[19:32:17] <michealpwalls> Exactly
[19:32:24] <michealpwalls> I've given up on idealogies haha
[19:32:31] <n1> you're not a threat, the agencies don't care what you're doing as long as you're being a good little worker
[19:32:53] <michealpwalls> That's what I strive to be :)
[19:33:00] <janrinok> Unless you have public discussions on IRC about things they would rather you didn't?
[19:33:12] <janrinok> Lol
[19:33:14] <n1> janrinok, we have a lot of public discussions.
[19:33:23] <n1> i think they will be quite happy to read how powerless we feel
[19:33:24] <michealpwalls> haha but I'm only an insignificant opinion. I am not in the limelight, so to speak..
[19:33:26] <n1> and how futile it all is
[19:33:38] <n1> we're not going to cause problems, we just want quiet lives
[19:33:46] <janrinok> I don't suppose for one minute anyone is listening to this drivel other than the obvious nicks signed in here!
[19:33:59] <michealpwalls> hehe
[19:34:15] <janrinok> Even I sometimes wonder what I'm here for....
[19:34:42] <janrinok> Good friends and a good laugh!
[19:35:03] <n1> yup
[19:35:08] <n1> i want to enjoy life
[19:35:31] <n1> not work for some mysterious goal i may achieve when i reach 65 or 80 by the time i get to retirement age
[19:35:39] <janrinok> Hey - I've just checked and I've posted a total of 300 stories as an editor.!
[19:35:43] <n1> because a bus could stop it all tomorrow.
[19:35:43] <michealpwalls> Well the IT guys here would know even better than me why channels like this and little nobodies like me are completely "off the radar", so to speak hehe.
[19:35:46] <n1> well done janrinok
[19:35:49] <n1> !
[19:35:56] <michealpwalls> It's all about volume and having something to look for..
[19:36:55] <janrinok> I've inflicted 300 stories on our poor membership! I feel a sense of deep remorse....
[19:37:21] <n1> lol
[19:37:47] * janrinok trying to slash wrists with a blunt plastic knife, 'cos that's all they'll let me have in here...
[19:37:49] <michealpwalls> hehe
[19:39:03] <janrinok> michealpwalls: what did you do at weekends before SN and IRC came into your life?
[19:39:43] <michealpwalls> For people upset about NSA tactics, I'm not an expert but I'm almost positive that if everyone simply turns on encryption --And of course this relies a large part on the groups, like Soylent's IRC channel and SoylentNews site-- then it makes the ability for any intelligence agencies to simply dragnet/search *everything* not practacle.
[19:39:49] <michealpwalls> is that belief wrong?
[19:40:02] <michealpwalls> janrinok: Skype and work LOL
[19:40:10] <janrinok> no, and SN is also available on TOR
[19:40:28] <janrinok> you work many weekends?
[19:40:33] <michealpwalls> Jah, that is good :)
[19:40:39] <michealpwalls> I work whenever I can, to be fair :|
[19:40:52] <michealpwalls> I never say no to work LOL, unless I have a higher payer work opportunity for that time (rofl)
[19:40:57] <janrinok> so does n1, he's quite a busy lad too
[19:41:11] <michealpwalls> I want to build a foundation for my kids. Cliche I know, but meh :/
[19:41:19] <janrinok> nothing wrong with that
[19:41:22] <n1> i try to balance more than michealpwalls
[19:41:25] <n1> because i dont have kids to think of
[19:41:32] <janrinok> yet...
[19:41:35] <michealpwalls> Jah, I used to be very balanced haha
[19:41:40] <michealpwalls> I had a very healthy gaming life :)
[19:41:40] <n1> dont scare me lol
[19:41:55] <michealpwalls> Maybe a little unbalanced on the side of gaming haha
[19:42:02] <michealpwalls> Leisure programming and etc.
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[19:42:29] <n1> tomorrow and monday, i dont plan on doing any work... but the phone always decides my fate on those days
[19:42:39] <michealpwalls> lol
[19:43:23] <n1> i really enjoy gaming but there never seems to be the time anymore
[19:43:39] <n1> "i'll check my emails just before i open up steam..."
[19:43:39] <michealpwalls> exactly!
[19:43:44] <n1> and thats another opportunity gone
[19:43:46] <michealpwalls> LOL
[19:43:53] <janrinok> same for me - I've got projects that I haven't had time to do any work on for over 2 months.
[19:44:09] <michealpwalls> same
[19:44:12] <n1> i just wanna play DayZ :(
[19:44:37] <janrinok> I don't have any games - I'm weird.
[19:44:43] <michealpwalls> I set out and planned, scoped out a project to build a game using the Unity engine with a friend of mine I met in College, but it kinda never happened 'cause we're both working on top of college assignments and meh. Sucks
[19:44:45] <michealpwalls> LOL
[19:44:51] <michealpwalls> Unity kicks ass, btw. Little pitch there :)
[19:45:24] <n1> janrinok, some people just dont get it - my business partner thinks gaming is really lame, but will watch box sets of the worst television shows ever to have been made
[19:45:47] <michealpwalls> haha
[19:45:58] <michealpwalls> Same here. My wife actually is exactly the same :P
[19:46:18] <n1> heh
[19:46:59] <n1> i really dislike most television, i dont find any value or entertainment in a lot of it
[19:47:07] <janrinok> I try not to judge people. I like programming - although I'm not particularly good at it nowadays - but many people find that a bit 'unusual'
[19:47:11] <n1> it makes me feel like my brain is leaking out onto the floor.
[19:47:33] <n1> janrinok, it takes all kinds of people.
[19:47:36] <michealpwalls> satellite and cable television drives me crazy. I mostly only ever use my TV when I plug my laptop in and watch online streams LOL
[19:47:39] <janrinok> I like specific programmes on TV, but I can't just sit in front of a TV for a full evening.
[19:47:41] <n1> if we all liked the same things, the world would be so boring
[19:48:09] <n1> i have a 'normal' playlist for background if im working at my desk
[19:48:40] <n1> contains, simpsons, king of the hill, qi, adventure time, david attenborough documentaries
[19:48:43] <janrinok> I can't work with music playing
[19:48:49] <michealpwalls> I like the brightness of my LED TV better than this shitty LCD laptop display. My next thing is a wireless keyboard so I can fucking game on the TV
[19:49:00] <n1> yeah, im not good with music, but just some ambient noise and something to distract
[19:49:05] <michealpwalls> That'd be brilliant hehe
[19:49:26] <n1> i recently added red dwarf and blackadder to my 'normal' playlist
[19:49:58] <michealpwalls> janrinok: I found a select set of music (Specifically without any vocals and a good rhythm) is good for my work (programming)
[19:50:31] <michealpwalls> Vocals distract me at a low level, it makes it hard to think through tough problems. Could be more because of my short attention span, though :P
[19:50:44] <janrinok> I end up singing along and then lose track of my thought processess!
[19:50:49] <n1> music is too much of an escape for me to be background
[19:50:50] <michealpwalls> Yes!
[19:51:08] <michealpwalls> I program the best to the soundtrack from the game "Hotline Miami"
[19:51:12] <michealpwalls> Lemme find a link for you LOL...
[19:51:20] <n1> that sounds interesting lol
[19:51:22] <janrinok> I enjoy music but not at the same time as programming.
[19:51:30] <michealpwalls> https://www.youtube.com
[19:51:33] <michealpwalls> hehe
[19:51:33] <n1> i think i can understand that, janrinok
[19:52:37] <n1> this sounds like it would be good for when im working on site
[19:52:41] <n1> not so much at my desk
[19:52:48] <janrinok> michealpwalls: I could _NOT_ work with that playing - although I could probably sit in the garden with it.
[19:52:58] <michealpwalls> Yea you put in your headphones and drown out the environment around you
[19:53:04] <michealpwalls> I can program *anywhere* with hotline miami :D
[19:53:12] <michealpwalls> LOL janrinok
[19:53:31] <n1> i get in lots of trouble for doing that though, health and safety on construction sites dont like people with headphones...
[19:54:46] <janrinok> Tell them you're tracing a signal from one of your alarms systems.
[19:54:47] <michealpwalls> LOL try this: http://www.youtube.com
[19:54:54] <n1> hah
[19:54:54] <michealpwalls> I can my code on to that LOL
[19:55:02] <michealpwalls> s/can/get
[19:55:02] * SedBot offers mechulpwells a /
[19:55:04] <michealpwalls> LOL
[19:55:17] <michealpwalls> That was comical
[19:55:22] <n1> janrinok, i usually just ignore them... hired by the owner of the building usually... the H&S are from the primary contractor
[19:55:30] <n1> so they have no control over me unless they want to take it to court
[19:55:53] <michealpwalls> LOL n1 that's right
[19:56:02] <michealpwalls> Just look, nod, and return to programming (flex)
[19:56:20] <janrinok> michealpwalls: I couldn't listen to that at anytime! But thanks for letting me know...
[19:56:26] <michealpwalls> haha
[19:56:37] <n1> im quite enjoying this, not my usual thing
[19:56:42] <n1> but something i can appreciate for sure
[19:56:57] <n1> as someone who mostly listens to underground hip-hop and classical...
[19:57:07] <michealpwalls> classical is great!
[19:57:46] <michealpwalls> Also, lowkey is great :)
[19:57:52] <n1> im pretty varied in my taste, i keep toying with the idea of putting a sludge metal band together
[19:57:57] <janrinok> bbl 30 mins or so
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[19:58:36] <n1> michealpwalls, this hotline miami is reminding me of when i used to listen to somafm .com a lot
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[20:32:09] <pbnjoe> hey, I remember that site
[20:32:39] <janrinok> pbnjoe? Am I missing a conversation?
[20:33:07] <pbnjoe> no, I'm responding to what n1 said 34 min ago
[20:33:16] <pbnjoe> haven't checked IRC in a while
[20:33:23] <janrinok> lol - is that why they call you speedy?
[20:33:38] <pbnjoe> heh
[20:36:23] <n1> pbnjoe, its still going and still just as good
[20:36:33] <pbnjoe> I'm listening to groove salad atm
[20:36:56] <pbnjoe> I only remembered that I've listened before because Kevin is *still* modelling their stealth hoodie haha
[20:38:03] <n1> the website hasnt changed for as long as ive been aware of the site
[20:39:38] <pbnjoe> I believe it
[20:42:09] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - IPWatchdog and the "Myths" about Software - http://sylnt.us - tell-me-lies-tell-me-sweet-little-lies
[20:53:24] <pbnjoe> deep space one, huh? Looks like I know what I'll be listening to next time I play KSP
[20:59:29] <chromas> The nice thing about Hotline Miami is, since you're going to die a thousand times, they don't waste time dicking around with long "You died" animations and unskippable cut scenes like almost every 'mainstream' game (MGS, Borderlands)
[21:04:26] <pbnjoe> I'm willing to bet money that they would've made almost none from the game if they made it like that
[21:05:47] <chromas> I wish all games had instant continue.
[21:15:03] <n1> anyone played the new MGS?
[21:16:32] <chromas> A little
[21:16:40] <n1> any good?
[21:17:20] <chromas> Yeah. It's short like the Snake bit in 2 but then there's some other missions to do and things to collect
[21:17:38] <chromas> I haven't come across any boxes to hide in
[21:17:53] <n1> yeah i read a review that the first mission can be quite short, but it can also be lengthy... it supposed to be quite open
[21:17:59] <n1> there's no 'you have to do it this way'
[21:18:07] <n1> no boxes?
[21:18:09] <n1> it's hardly mgs...
[21:18:26] <chromas> No David Hayter either
[21:20:04] <n1> that sucks
[21:20:43] <chromas> Christopher Randolph's there. They kept the wrong guy
[21:21:47] <chromas> Oh like spoiler alert and stuff
[21:28:47] <n1> it's probably going to be a while before i play it
[21:31:53] <chromas> Hopefully it's cheaper by then
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[21:35:03] <n1> yeah thats what im waiting for
[21:35:12] <n1> or for a mate to buy it lol
[21:35:38] <n1> thats the only reason ive been able to play gta5
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[21:50:46] <chromas> lol that's how I played mgs5 :)
[21:52:27] <chromas> How's GTA5?
[21:54:24] <chromas> Somebody needs to come up with a game that combines Jet Set Radio and GTA with RPG elements
[22:07:43] <n1> i really like gta5
[22:07:57] <n1> at first i didnt think i would, but playing it has changed my view on it although i havnt played it that much
[22:08:47] <n1> its a nice place to have a rampage heh
[22:09:15] <n1> from what i know, the storyline is pointless, but the characters are actually quite good
[22:11:06] <n1> getting attacked and killed by a cougar as i was planning on taking out some cops, was a great gaming moment
[22:13:55] <chromas> lol
[22:14:29] <chromas> In GTA5, pussy eat you; what a country!
[22:15:04] <n1> naturally it happened when my friend was out of the room, he didnt believe me at first lol
[22:18:29] <n1> i just want a new fallout game :(
[22:31:31] <deadbeef> [SoylentNews] - Weev's Conviction Vacated by 3rd Circuit - http://sylnt.us - lets-see-what-happens-now
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