#qa | Logs for 2020-10-21

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[11:55:26] <Bytram_dewey> 9400: https://soylentnews.org "Beam is Building a Web Browser that Gathers Knowledge from Your Web Activity"
[12:36:14] <janrinok> Bytram_dewey, I'm lurking if you want any encouragement or cheering from the sidelines....
[12:45:06] <Bytram_dewey> janrinok: Hi! Hope you are more rested and feeling better!
[12:45:46] <janrinok> better, but not there yet thanks.
[12:46:00] <janrinok> how about yourself
[12:47:27] <Bytram_dewey> I think my priorities -- ATM and subject to change -- (1) Install emacs (in progress: sudo snap install emacs --classic) (2) Try to get hexchat working (anticipate some trial-and-error on that one) (3) Try to get Thunderbird working
[12:47:48] <Bytram_dewey> Msg from emacs install (^^^): emacs 27.1 from Alex Murray (alexmurray) installed
[12:48:13] <janrinok> have you recovered your Hexchat and Thunderbird from the Win drive?
[12:50:01] <Bytram_dewey> That was... unexpected. In a term: "emacs" replies with installation suggestions including: "sudo snap install emacs # version 26.3, or"
[12:51:12] <Bytram_dewey> which I tried, and got an error/warning: (pardon the formatting!)
[12:51:13] <Bytram_dewey> [sudo] password for martyb: error: This revision of snap "emacs" was published using classic confinement and thus may perform arbitrary system changes outside of the security sandbox that snaps are usually confined to, which may put your system at risk. If you understand and want to proceed repeat the command including --classic.
[12:51:56] <Bytram_dewey> looking on the web, confirmed I should do: "sudo snap install emacs --classic"
[12:52:33] <Bytram_dewey> that downloaded for a while and then I saw this message: "emacs 27.1 from Alex Murray (alexmurray) installed"
[12:52:34] <janrinok> It will not do any harm, but many of us wish that they would stop using snap packages and stay with conventional apt packages
[12:52:53] * Bytram_dewey asks to be added to that list
[12:53:49] <janrinok> the problem is that apt packages need to be updated/modified for each release and for different distros, whereas snap packages are all enclosed in one package - thus snap requires less of a manpower cost to keep updated
[12:57:50] <janrinok> however, once installed they behave themselve, and you will see them automatically update themselves when necessary
[12:58:33] <Bytram_dewey> I understand why they do it (ease of config/support) but it seems to me that shipping an entire application and all its dependencies as a blob has taken us from static executables to DLLs (shared chunks of executables to save download overhead and memory pressure) all the way out to: downloads are quick; file space is cheap and abundant (HDD/SSD); memory is cheap and abundant; let's make *our* life easier and give them everything; not jus
[13:00:11] * Bytram_dewey had already installed emacs on 18.04 but got removed when I upgraded from Mate 18.04 to Mate 20.04 :/
[13:00:12] <janrinok> it is partly driven by cloud computing - the money is not made from desktops/laptops nowadays. Snap packages work well with containers
[13:01:23] <janrinok> the move to more snap packages has only just occurred with this release - I've read that there is some push-back but doubt it will be enough to change anybody's mind about the decision
[13:02:35] <Bytram_dewey> So, we've gone full circle from dumb terminals connected to a mainframe, to client/server with mostly local processing, back to glorified terminals with data and computes back in the cloud
[13:03:11] <Bytram_dewey> and get off my lawn! ;^)
[13:03:19] <janrinok> well that is what the companies might like, but there are still businesses that want the software on desktops and do not want to rely on the cloud at all
[13:04:25] <janrinok> I'm trying to remember the name of the company that said they were considering changing their distro to prevent the extra reliance on cloud computing that is become the trend.
[13:04:39] <Bytram_dewey> If the internet goes down, does my company stop working? Seen it all-too-often!
[13:05:01] <janrinok> and security, etc
[13:05:12] <Bytram_dewey> tru dat
[13:05:38] <janrinok> if all of our work is in the cloud, who really owns all the files that we are creating?
[13:06:28] <janrinok> Of course, banks are sticking with big iron - I don't see that changing in my lifetime
[13:07:51] <Bytram_dewey> Well, next on my list was getting hexchat going. Before I dive in, I think I'll review the docs on the SoylentNews wiki (especially wrt ZNC). May be a while as I *just* woke up, took a phone call, got online, caught up with the site's overnight activities, got emacs installed (such as it is), and now need to get cleaned up before doing anything else with my day.
[13:08:03] <Bytram_dewey> IOW, will be afk for a while.
[13:08:20] <janrinok> k, laters
[13:22:12] <Bytram_dewey> oh, 2 quick questions? (1) is there a simple way to interract with the copy/paste buffer? E.g. cat foo.txt | clip and then go to, say, firefox, and use Edit / Paste from the menu bar? Or vice versa: select text in, say, firefox window, Edit / Copy and then at the CLI, something *like*: cat $paste_buffer > bar.txt
[13:25:54] <Bytram_dewey> and, (2) how to get dimensions of the screen? (a) entire *screen* (b) available viewport (i.e. without the status bar (which has date/time, speaker status, WiFi indicator, battery indicator, etc. AND without the list of active processes ([System Monitor], Firefox windows, Teminals, etc.)
[13:26:08] <Bytram_dewey> okay, afk for real now. biab
[13:27:37] <janrinok> 1) That was something that you mentioned a week or two ago and is not something I had thought of using. Short answer is 'I do not know'
[13:28:43] <janrinok> 2) xdpyinfo | grep 'dimensions:'
[13:30:47] <janrinok> echo $LINES echo $COLUMNS
[13:34:16] <janrinok> xrandr | grep '*'
[13:37:22] <janrinok> https://www.howtogeek.com
[13:40:30] <janrinok> that last link is the technique that I use as it works with CLI and GUI, but I spend most of my time cutting/pasting between GUI programs
[13:45:07] <janrinok> more correctly, I use Ctrl-c/v on GUIs, and Shift+Ctrl-c/v on CLI.
[13:48:20] <janrinok> I'm sure that there IS a way, it is just something that I have not needed to do. FOUND IT!
[13:48:52] <janrinok> xclip is the answer, or at least part of it. You might have to install it as it is not a default command. Then man xclip
[13:50:43] <janrinok> yep, that does everything that you asked for
[13:53:09] <janrinok> I've already installed it on my system - I like it!
[13:53:32] <janrinok> man xclip gives you examples too!
[14:04:40] <Bytram_dewey> Sounds perfect!
[14:05:07] <Bytram_dewey> sudo apt install xclip
[14:08:38] <janrinok> er, it doesn't install using IRC....
[14:08:53] <Bytram_dewey> Darn!
[14:14:37] <Bytram_dewey> I notice that xclip uses a single "-" (hyphen) to introduce option names, both short and long; e.g. "xclip -o" and "xclip -out" are identical. ISTM that some programs use *two* hyphens to introduce the long form of command options, in this example we would still have "xclip -o" but then there would be "xclip --out".
[14:15:54] <Bytram_dewey> Is that strictly a GNU thing? Or, more precisely, should I anticipage that "-long" or "--long" is what I would most frequently encounter?
[14:16:07] <Bytram_dewey> s/page/pate/
[14:18:16] <janrinok> it varies but it is often two dashes for full commands as you have pointed out, but I can think of a lot more exceptions
[14:21:52] * Bytram_dewey prefers "--" for long forms
[14:22:31] <janrinok> so do I, and all of the python libraries use -- for the long form too
[14:23:16] <Bytram_dewey> just wondering which one I shuld generally assume is in effect for the best likelihood of having it work... For now, I think I'll default to "--" and assume that otherwise, the program needs to get with the times!
[14:23:49] <janrinok> yep, I blame the authors named at the bottom of the man page
[14:23:54] <Bytram_dewey> ISTR that "--" was introduced by GNU?
[14:24:15] <janrinok> don't know who introduced it but it has been a common 'standard' for a long time
[14:25:01] <janrinok> the first version of xclip was written in 2001 - might be before the standard was decided
[14:25:20] <Bytram_dewey> yes. System V, IIRC, only had "-${single_char}" options
[14:26:21] <Bytram_dewey> I exprect I'll be "scraping my knuckles" for a while. Oh well!
[14:26:32] <Bytram_dewey> and, yet again, thanks for the help!
[14:27:01] <Bytram_dewey> Feeing better / more rested today, I hope?
[14:27:06] <janrinok> I was only trying out some new ideas so I haven't lost any productive time
[14:27:31] <Bytram_dewey> and, you got yourself a handy (!) new tool!
[14:28:19] <janrinok> still exhausted and didn't sleep too well either, but yesterday I felt unwell and decided I wasn't safe to drive either. I feel better today but the tiredness will need a lot more to overcome it
[14:28:38] <Bytram_dewey> {{{{{ janrinok }}}}}
[14:29:34] <janrinok> actually posted a story too - it just caught my interest. I also noted that Az and Ari are foretelling the end of the site and the world in general on #editorial so I decided not to stay on there.
[14:29:48] <Bytram_dewey> hope S is on the mend and that they have a better idea of what to do and how to do it for her break!
[14:29:57] <Bytram_dewey> janrinok: good thinking.
[14:30:56] <Bytram_dewey> Is part of my wanting to get hexchat working again and get my usual nick back.
[14:31:13] <janrinok> She has an appt on 6 Nov, when they will xray it again and decide what needs to be done if anything. One option is that providing the bone heals in some manner it will not matter too much if it is not perfect as she will never walk again anyway
[14:31:58] <Bytram_dewey> nod nod; best wishes!
[14:32:09] <janrinok> It is not causing her any discomfort and it looks OK, so if they go poking around it could make things worse.
[14:33:02] <Bytram_dewey> so glad to hear there's no discomfort!
[14:43:11] <janrinok> what is the problem with logging back on with Hexchat? as long as you log on to port 60000 it should work as before shouldn't it?
[14:43:55] <janrinok> ... or have you forgotten your pw - which is my usual trick
[14:44:13] <Bytram_dewey> latter
[14:44:37] <janrinok> welcome to the club then - it's an age thing, or at least that is the excuse I use
[14:45:30] <janrinok> does Deucalion know that you need his help?
[14:47:07] <janrinok> just as an aside - I note that the list of ops on this channel contains 'wheatley' - that's not a name I recall from anywhere else.
[14:47:26] <Bytram_dewey> not yet... I remember the last time he helped me... at 4 AM my time. He was helpful, and we got things working pretty easily, but I remember very little of what we did, and undestand it even less. Would like to skin my knuckles a little before I call him in.
[14:51:31] <Bytram_dewey> also, on my todo list is to get Pale Moon installed as my default browser... seems lie I have a profile left over from before... making sure there is no executable lying around
[14:53:11] <Bytram_dewey> this looks promising: http://ubuntuhandbook.org
[14:56:33] <Bytram_dewey> mostly because I am astonished at how much stuff firefox lets through by default and they *seem* to be willing to do things to get info on me; maybe not overtly, but I see how much stuff gets back to them when I do certain things... like typing a URL and it helpfully offers completions; can't do that unless they saw what I'd already typed. Right? Yeah, none of their business.
[14:56:39] <janrinok> there is a snap package for PM I think. I've found that PM works on fewer sites more recently, and I'm having to search for an alternative that will accept HTML5
[14:57:03] <Bytram_dewey> Also, there are some addons that make my life so much easier that are no longer supported by FF
[14:57:16] <janrinok> agreed
[14:58:10] <janrinok> you can switch off the suggestions options in FF and I have not detected any naughty behaviour - but that doesn't mean much...
[14:59:41] <Bytram_dewey> Oh, that's right. There are a bunch of about:configs that I had set along the way... gonna have to rediscover what they were!
[14:59:45] <janrinok> there are lots of pages containing media that no longer in PM - it is getting a bit frustrating
[14:59:52] * Bytram_dewey adds it to the todo pile
[15:00:31] <janrinok> anyway - must go cook something for us both - scratching my brain for original ideas that meet S's dietary requirements
[15:00:46] <janrinok> biab
[15:00:48] <Bytram_dewey> that's find by me. I do not want media (video) unless I intentionally ask for it. I prefer using youtube-dl whenever possible
[15:01:51] <Bytram_dewey> Best of luck... and don't scratch toooo hard -- us oldtimers need to hold onto as much of that hair that we can!
[15:02:14] <Bytram_dewey> laters, and thanks again!!!!
[15:02:28] <Bytram_dewey> Actually, I need to be going, too. laters!
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[23:03:15] <halibut> Concerning copying and pasting, xclip seems like a good way to go. I thought I would also mention, though, that in a lot of GNU/Linux systems, simply highlighting something with the mouse automatically copies it, and either middle-clicking or clicking with left and right buttons simultaneously pastes it. It is both really handy when you want it and really annoying when you do not.
[23:04:26] <halibut> While some applications use the usual CTRL-{C,X,V} for copy/cut/paste, some others (including several terminals) appear to use an older CTRL-INS/SHIFT-DEL/SHIFT-INS for copy/cut/paste. A bit of a mishmash, I'm afraid.
[23:05:26] <Bytram_dewey> halibut: Yes, I had that turned on for Hexchat on Windows... really handy (bad pun intended!), but I can see how it could be a hassle, too. Appreciate the pointer!
[23:05:44] <halibut> Concerning Firefox, I have a user.js where I keep the settings that reduce the number of ways FF sends out information. If you are seriously interested in Firefox, I can trim it down and try to provide it in some way (user.js can be used to force preferences to be set whenever Firefox starts).
[23:07:28] <Bytram_dewey> I appreciate the thought, but I am going to first try and get Pale Moon running on Linux (I have a bunch of addons that are no longer able to be supported by FF)...
[23:08:28] <halibut> Probably best to stick with the browser you want.
[23:08:35] <Bytram_dewey> that said, I think this could make for a very interesting discussion on the site! Send in your favorite FF tips and tricks...
[23:09:22] <Bytram_dewey> About how much code are we talking about? 10-20 lines? 50? 100?
[23:09:28] <halibut> I played around with a few different browsers. Most people complain about the bloat in Firefox, but I found the console and inspector tools pretty handy for messing with things, so I am tempted to stick with Firefox just for those.
[23:09:45] <Bytram_dewey> makes sense
[23:10:23] <halibut> I have 91 settings in my file, but some of them are personal preferences. I just copy user.js to a new profile, and most of my settings are set.
[23:10:44] <Bytram_dewey> nod nod
[23:11:09] <halibut> Also, others are there despite being the default values, as a reminder to me that they are things I could change should I want to, or might want to change if the default changes in the future.
[23:11:09] <Bytram_dewey> In that case bracket the code like this:
[23:11:13] <Bytram_dewey> <ecode>
[23:11:23] <Bytram_dewey> ... your code goes here
[23:11:25] <Bytram_dewey> </ecode>
[23:12:56] <Bytram_dewey> given the amount you are talking about, I'd suggest putting <spoiler> ... </spoiler> around the outside of the <ecode> ... </ecode>
[23:13:41] <Bytram_dewey> so: <spoiler><ecode> Your code goes here </ecode></spoiler>
[23:14:11] <Bytram_dewey> We can clean things up, if neccessary, when we try to push it out to the site.
[23:15:06] <Bytram_dewey> Do you have comments in it, or is it just straight code>
[23:15:11] <halibut> Won't that just turn into a vi-vs-emacs-esque browser war?
[23:15:12] <Bytram_dewey> s/>/?/
[23:15:22] <halibut> Yes, I have a few comments, but I would trim most of them out.
[23:16:18] <halibut> Also, several of them break sites.
[23:16:26] <Bytram_dewey> don't think so. I don't know about you, but a *huge* part of my CS education was learning tips/tricks from others ... just as you have been helping me out here
[23:16:29] <halibut> Some sites really love their javascript and local storage.
[23:16:34] <Bytram_dewey> halibut++ belated thanks
[23:16:39] <halibut> You're welcome.
[23:18:54] <Bytram_dewey> So, as long as there's a brief disclaimer along the lines of not wanting to start a browser war, but I thought I'd submit something that had made FF much more user-friendly for *me* and would like to offer an opportunity for the community their favorites... something like that should go over wll, I'd think.
[23:19:05] <Bytram_dewey> swll/well/
[23:19:14] <Bytram_dewey> s/wll/well/
[23:19:23] <Bytram_dewey> lol, oh well!
[23:19:32] <halibut> I'm almost willing to bet on it, but since it is not too much effort for me, I'll try cleaning it up.
[23:20:45] <Bytram_dewey> Also, I could add [Ed note: depending on the feedback on this, we are considering running something similar for Chrome and for Safari]
[23:21:38] <halibut> Do you have a contributor for other browsers?
[23:22:02] <Bytram_dewey> not yet :D
[23:23:20] <Bytram_dewey> but if there is enough "browser war" noise, I'd be glad to tap one of them to suggest they contribute their favorites in a similar fashion to *this* story and I'd be happy to consider running with it.'
[23:23:37] <halibut> ... seems an apt punishment.
[23:23:58] <Bytram_dewey> Thanks for volunteering! :D
[23:24:54] <Bytram_dewey> If I can get into the comments early enough and out that out there to the community, it could do a lot to dampen any imminent battles, I'd suspect
[23:25:07] <Bytram_dewey> s/out/put/