#governance | Logs for 2024-01-17
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[00:03:32] -!- acid_andy [acid_andy!~acid_andy@10-465-597-563.dab.35.net] has joined #governance
[00:05:09] <acid_andy> If the domains were to expire, do the servers have static IPs so we could still reach the sites that way?
[00:06:47] <chromas> 23.239.29.31 or 23-239-29-31.ip.linodeusercontent.com
[00:07:23] <chromas> you'll have to allow for the cert's domain mismatch in your browser
[00:08:19] <chromas> irc.soylentnews.org -> 72.14.184.4
[00:08:31] <acid_andy> Thanks that's what nslookup gave me. The site loads but the images didn't.
[00:08:47] <chromas> it's all static so it should keep working until linode account expires :D
[00:09:10] <chromas> I guess you could put in a hosts entry
[00:09:18] * chromas awaits APK
[00:09:43] <acid_andy> cool thanks. Better stop cluttering up the governance channel anyway....
[00:09:52] -!- acid_andy has quit [Quit: laters]
[00:10:02] <chromas> not like it's being used for anything
[00:52:18] -!- not_kolie2 [not_kolie2!~not_kolie@2620:13c:1000:o:kqxu:nymz:ghoh:jjgq] has joined #governance
[00:56:13] -!- not_kolie1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
[17:36:37] <cosurgi> not_kolie2: did you see what janrinok wrote yesterday? It is relevant, because the domain names are up for renewal or they will expire. And we lose the site.
[19:40:05] <not_kolie2> I've read it. I'm not trying to make anything business like. Nor am I here to pontificate. Just looking to create a framework for SN to function going forward, legally. That's been written.
[19:44:28] <not_kolie2> So as far as I see it. You have it. If you want to proceed with it file, pick your board, and make it happen.
[19:45:11] <not_kolie2> I'm good. It's up to you with where you take it. I'm resigning from the governance committee.
[19:47:30] <not_kolie2> You want my advice or help on how to file or make it happen, well you have my email and I check irc.
[19:48:11] <not_kolie2> I'm not going to be the only one participating, and you can ostrich all you like about the legal, management aspects but to function well in this world and keep it all above board, its necessary.
[20:08:30] <not_kolie2> I was never asked and never intended to be in the new corp board or leadership. No one wants to participate fine I get that people jsut want to staff like they always have, so you get the future you seek.
[20:14:15] <not_kolie2> "From where I sit, it seems that you want to be viewed as the site leader but you do not intend doing any of the work expected of such a post"
[20:14:22] <not_kolie2> You have poor reading comprehension.
[20:14:35] <not_kolie2> I've said since day one, I only intend to facilitate a changing of the guard.
[20:22:27] <cosurgi> not_kolie2: are you resigning from staff ?
[20:22:55] <janrinok> cosurgi, he is also an existing Board member....
[20:23:40] * cosurgi is getting lost in all the politics.
[20:24:35] <janrinok> He was nominated to 'oversee' the Governance Committee on behalf of the current Board.
[20:26:07] <cosurgi> And he just resigned: "20:45 < not_kolie2> I'm good. It's up to you with where you take it. I'm resigning from the governance committee."
[20:27:00] <chromas> who's left on it and when's it going to decide on something?
[20:29:34] <cosurgi> who now holds the keys to the kingdom? The credit card to pay for domain reneval, the login to Gandi, the root access to all servers, etc? And where are the servers located BTW?
[20:30:29] <cosurgi> After NC nuked everything and blocked everyone it's been really strange. I hope he doesn't suddenly come and do the same thing again.
[20:32:08] <janrinok> cosurgi, he has resigned from the committee, but remains a member of the current board. And as such it was not unreasonable to ask him to ensure that the domain renewals were being managed.
[20:32:53] <janrinok> They will only hand things over to another company - not to a group of individuals.
[20:34:29] <cosurgi> And in that sentence, who is "They" ?
[20:34:38] * cosurgi just tried to get a clear picture.
[20:34:42] * cosurgi just tries to get a clear picture.
[20:35:35] <janrinok> 'They' are the current Board.
[20:36:30] <chromas> They want to hand the stuff over to another company instead of just stepping down and having other people replace them for unnamed legal reasons
[20:37:41] <janrinok> So unless we now create a company - which we have been in a position to do for several weeks but k0lie was reluctant to move forward without getting a full meeting of the GC together. The problem is that we criticise all the wasted time at meetings in our professional lives but the intention was to introduce such a thing here. People have just got fed up with the crap.
[20:38:33] <kolie> I'm not reluctant to move forward. there is no board, and no voting mechanism per the proposed bylaws.
[20:38:41] <kolie> So whos forming it?
[20:40:32] <janrinok> I don't know - I haven't seen your Meta asking for volunteers. I haven't seen a request for anyone to organise a vote. I haven't seen you explain to the community how in order to serve on the Board they will have to give up their anonymity.
[20:41:50] <not_kolie2> So your not only do you feign ignornace, but you willfully do so, got it.
[20:41:59] <not_kolie2> So have it.
[20:42:14] <not_kolie2> Your the biggest crock of shit janrinok ive ever met in my life.
[20:43:04] <not_kolie2> If it was about the site and community, you sure make it all about you.
[20:43:22] <not_kolie2> You make it clear were your priorities are.
[20:43:33] <not_kolie2> And its not the best interest of this community at large. Perhaps your own ideals.
[20:44:54] <janrinok> Having no site at all is not an improvement on what we had. You wrote those bylaws. I said that I didn't agree with them. You surely cannot expect me to go out and sell something that I don't have any faith in myself, do you?
[20:45:15] <not_kolie2> Did I say I expect anything of you?
[20:45:22] <not_kolie2> You assume far too much.
[20:46:03] <not_kolie2> I crafted the bylaws and putthem out for community participation. Your notes and everyone elses are in them. You want a three person board, fine cool, lets put that out.
[20:46:40] <janrinok> It is NOT about me. It is about having a site run by volunteers who give their time willingly but who do not want all the same crap that they have in their professional lies. I have no issue with having more community members involved. They have always been involved to the extent that they wanted to be involved.
[20:47:09] <not_kolie2> Yea thats what newcorp is setup to promote and foster.
[20:47:19] <not_kolie2> Thats why the bylaws are as they are, they get that in spades.
[20:47:43] <not_kolie2> And you get legal protection, and the ability to control the site and its content in perpetuity.
[20:48:08] <janrinok> What is this 'let us put this out'. I thought that you were stepping down. You only need a board of 3. The other community volunteers can become the new Governance Committee and they decide what the Board should do.
[20:48:11] <not_kolie2> Backed by what everyone said mattered most - the community.
[20:49:26] <janrinok> The board is simple an administrative interface to the outside world. The community can express themselves quite well when they are asked for their views. The job for the staff is to implement it - and that includes the Board. They are directed by the community.
[20:50:21] <not_kolie2> Well thats just facts there.
[20:50:30] <janrinok> Just like today - only 3 people have to waive their anonymity. The rest of the community can carry on as we have for the last 10 years, IMO.
[20:51:45] <janrinok> The problem was caused by one person changing software for his own personal interests. That is the problem that we have to prevent for the future.
[20:51:59] <not_kolie2> Yea your bylaws address that.
[20:52:07] <not_kolie2> proposed atleast.
[20:52:30] <not_kolie2> And sets it up so unforseen problems you havent thoughjt of, edge cases, corner cases, can be dealt with.
[20:52:34] <Bytram> I am here catching up on scroll back
[20:52:35] <janrinok> We can quote any bylaws we wish to create a new company. Bylaws can be subsequently changed.
[20:53:01] <not_kolie2> And that was also addressed, by requiring the community to sign off on them, see, they have built in protections.
[20:53:35] <janrinok> They can still sign of on them from a seat on the GC. The Board does what the community wants.
[20:53:36] <not_kolie2> its like we actually thought about the problems, and wrote a documen tto fix them....
[20:54:22] <janrinok> Oh, I'm glad that you agree because that is exactly what we wrote in Bylaws 3, 4, and 5.
[20:55:03] <janrinok> It didn't need 6 months of weekly meetings. We could have done this by mid-summer last year.
[20:55:15] <not_kolie2> Ok well the meetings are a touch point.
[20:55:27] <not_kolie2> Nothing more, so blame whatever you like, its not the meetings that caused delays.
[20:55:34] <requerdanos> In fact, I recall about that time kolie offering as a motion in a meeting to form a corp and start the transfer. he was shouted down.
[20:56:00] <not_kolie2> janrinok says one thing and then says he doesnt support it
[20:56:17] <not_kolie2> he says go and do it and see who suports you, but its false
[20:56:33] <requerdanos> I don't know about all that. Just that the process has been derailed, pulled off course.
[20:57:11] <requerdanos> And the make corp - transfer assets - everything else sequence, which seems obvious and correct, has gotten little treatment
[20:57:17] <not_kolie2> You got your bylaws, and the PBC has said they will act on the final advice from this committee and transfer to what it sets up.
[20:57:53] <not_kolie2> My suggestion, file them, get your corp, and transfer. If you dont like the bylaws later, change them, not my monkey or circus at that point.
[20:57:57] <janrinok> I do not support your draft of the Bylaws as I have already stated. But we can use them to start a company and then change them once we have control of the assets.
[20:57:59] <requerdanos> there was a period of time where there was a war against FORMING a corp, we were only to EXAMIME forming a corp (we were to LOOK but not TOUCH) - seemed to be championed by audioguy
[20:58:30] <requerdanos> This was nonsense and served only to sidetrack the proceedings.
[20:58:44] <requerdanos> There was a period of time where many were at war against kolie participating in any way.
[20:58:45] <requerdanos> This was nonsense and served only to sidetrack the proceedings.
[20:59:02] <requerdanos> These are the only two efforts that have had any grassroots support.
[20:59:48] <requerdanos> And again the make corp - transfer assets - everything else sequence, which seems obvious and correct to me at least, has still gotten little treatment.
[21:00:45] <requerdanos> With the interests of the committee thus revealed, I am unsure of any path towards completion. The side battles are losing us the war.
[21:01:16] <janrinok> I contend that we had solved the bylaws problem many months ago but k0lie and others shot down anything we produced. Which is why I asked him to produce some bylaws that he would agree to. I don't have to like them, he however does. They have been presented to the community and received 1 suggested change.
[21:02:23] <kolie> Well im off the committee, and the PBC will want to know the committees final resolution on the matter.
[21:02:27] <requerdanos> "I don't have to like them" -- you don't have to like them, I don't have to like them, the community seems to have no problem with them other than minor change(s). Yet you resigned over them as I understand it, because you don't support them personally even though they have community support so far as that can be determined.
[21:02:43] <janrinok> I cannot hand on heart now stand up and recommend them to the community. I will work under them, but I stepped down because I could not support personally support them. I am no longer on the GC. It is not my place to begin writing Metas in support of them.
[21:03:39] <kolie> If the committee dissolves or is unable to act, then I can address my concerns with the PBC board at that point.
[21:03:56] <kolie> You have a path forward, take it and do something with it.
[21:04:21] <janrinok> It proposes a Board that consists of 8 people who MUST give up their anonymity. And periodically the posts will be changed and another group will have to give up their anonymity. That is not going to fly with many people.
[21:04:23] <requerdanos> I only see two committee members here, a quorum would be four, and my patience with making time for this process is running short.
[21:04:24] <kolie> If you want my participation, you know how to let me know.
[21:05:04] <kolie> So set it to three.
[21:05:06] <kolie> And file that.
[21:06:34] <kolie> Sorry the legal world makes controlling an organization, record the name and email address of the person who controls it. You know, might make it weird in court if resolving a dispute you get 5000 aristarchus showing up
[21:06:37] <cosurgi> If that helps, I have no problem with giving up my anonymity. In fact my signature in posts contains a lik to my university webpage, so I am not anonymous at all.
[21:06:46] <cosurgi> *link
[21:07:06] <janrinok> Somebody from the committee should explain the problem with the anonymity to the community. But I have watched for 2 months and nobody has even mentioned it to them. It is not specified in the Bylaws. It was assumed that 'everyone would know'. Well they don't....
[21:07:09] <kolie> And the person that has it, is a member of said organization, and can be bound by penalties under the law.
[21:07:16] <kolie> We have discussed it
[21:07:18] <kolie> At length
[21:07:20] <kolie> In the very metas.
[21:07:41] <kolie> Must be that age janrinok your minds going apparently.
[21:07:55] <kolie> "Nobody has even mentioned it to them"
[21:08:07] <kolie> Seemed like the metas, were we discussed this, it has been mentioned.
[21:08:21] <kolie> You rewrite history hourly to suit your mood it seems.
[21:08:24] <janrinok> cosurgi, I understand your position but I think you have to be a US citizen. k0lie - the bylaws give them a degree of immunity as you yourself have pointed out up the page.#
[21:08:50] * cosurgi lives in Poland.
[21:08:54] <cosurgi> I see.
[21:08:56] <Bytram> Ok. What if *I* volunteer to run the show until we get things running? I'm tired of the drama! Let's move along. What is the next step?
[21:08:57] <kolie> I don't know why you mean by the bylaws give them a degree of immunity.
[21:09:18] <kolie> File for a non-profit non-stock corporation.
[21:09:35] <requerdanos> Regardless of how one might feel about such things, no quorum showing up typically means no official meeting of such a body as this. And I do not see a quorum. The discussion looks great to be honest, but we need to meet, form a corp, transfer assets, and go from there, and can't do that as a committee with two members out of seven present.
[21:09:35] <Bytram> kolie: janrinok cosurgi requerdanos ^^^
[21:09:36] <kolie> You'll need to handle voting in people by community participation.
[21:10:16] <requerdanos> Last official meeting as I recall was back in November, when people showed up and met.
[21:10:22] <cosurgi> Bytram: it's great that you volunteer. *Thank you* !
[21:10:29] <janrinok> not until after we have created a temporary board and filed.
[21:11:00] <Bytram> addredd my nick if you are is with me
[21:11:29] <requerdanos> Bytram: I will echo that it's great that you volunteer, and thank you
[21:11:50] <cosurgi> So what's the next step for Bytram >
[21:11:53] <cosurgi> So what's the next step for Bytram ?
[21:12:23] <janrinok> I am very happy if you will take that post - we also need a secretary and accountant who are also prepared to waive their anonymity.
[21:12:38] <janrinok> Bytram ^
[21:12:49] <requerdanos> The next step for requerdanos, who is tired of posting metas announcing meetings that don't happen and posting minutes of non-meetings, is to resign as secretary of the committee (but stay on the committee such as it is or turns out to be)
[21:13:09] <kolie> thanks for your dilligence requerdanos
[21:13:27] <Bytram> I'm not sure but I am sick and tirerd of all the talk and no progress!
[21:13:33] <janrinok> Thanks req - your efforts have been appreciated by the community too
[21:13:40] <kolie> You've done well as the secretary and it's really noticed by me.
[21:14:44] <requerdanos> well, thanks. I'd rather progress than documentation of lack of same though, on the whole
[21:19:13] <Bytram> PLEASE! Do not assume we (bystanders) know whno you are talking to. Use nicknames explicitly OR ALL:
[21:19:29] <Bytram> A<LL]
[21:19:39] <Bytram> ALL: ^^^
[21:21:18] -!- aristarchus [aristarchus!~aristarch@138.199.ki.hrl] has joined #governance
[21:21:30] <kolie> ari late to the party.
[21:22:09] <Bytram> janrinok kolie, Bytram cmn32480 audioguy mechanicjay chromas Fnord666 Deucalion requerdanos ^^^^
[21:22:14] <janrinok> I am keeping everyone on the staff informed via other means
[21:22:56] <Bytram> kolie: I can confirm
[21:23:17] <chromas> I can also confirm ari is late
[21:23:35] <Bytram> kolie: I can confirm that janrinok is keeping us informed
[21:24:17] * Bytram takes his own advice
[21:24:55] <janrinok> fliptop has just volunteered to fill a role on the new Board.
[21:25:03] <janrinok> just one more post to fill....
[21:25:31] <kolie> Going to lunch, I'll catch up later.
[21:26:38] <Bytram> fliptop! Thank you!
[21:26:47] <cosurgi> fliptop: Thank you for volunteering!
[21:28:56] -!- fliptop [fliptop!~fliptop@Soylent/Staff/Sysop/fliptop] has joined #governance
[21:29:15] <fliptop> Howdy all
[21:29:24] <janrinok> hi fliptop
[21:29:38] <Bytram> hi fliptop!
[21:31:42] <janrinok> I have asked all the usual staff if any of them would be happy to fill the remaining post - I don't expect a response quickly. But I can remain optimistic....
[21:33:13] <Bytram> ALL: I've lost track... how many AND* who is here right now?
[21:33:37] <fliptop> aye
[21:33:53] <requerdanos> bytram: I am here right now
[21:34:33] <Bytram> requerdanos: good to "see" you!
[21:35:37] <requerdanos> you as well.
[21:38:32] <Bytram> janrinok kolie, Bytram cmn32480 audioguy mechanicjay chromas Fnord666 Deucalion (and requerdanos is here_ ^^^^
[21:43:09] <janrinok> most of you should have seen mechanicjay's response by now.
[22:02:50] <cosurgi> Well, I have to go to sleep. Good night! :-)
[22:03:03] <janrinok> Laters guys - it is way past my bedtime...!
[22:15:20] -!- aristarchus has quit [Quit: Client closed]
[22:51:46] <cmn32480> All my apologies. I got held up on a P1 at work.... I shall read the back scroll