#governance | Logs for 2023-11-08
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[18:52:38] <schestowitz[TR]> http://techrights.org
[18:58:36] <janrinok> Thank you for that link - we could do with some good publicity!
[19:24:03] <schestowitz[TR]> yw :)
[19:50:24] <janrinok> I am here!
[20:29:42] <Bytram> i am here
[20:30:18] <janrinok> I just pinged you a 30 min warning on the other channel :)
[20:31:15] * Bytram is also fighting a stuffed nose, cough, and phlegm :(
[20:35:28] <janrinok> sorry to hear that
[20:35:38] * Bytram is here, but not all there. If you know what I mean?!
[20:36:53] <janrinok> yep - take it easy
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[20:39:16] <Bytram> will do.
[20:45:58] <Bytram> k0lie: Are you here?
[20:53:49] <requerdanos> Let's hope the time change doesn't claim too many of our members today.
[20:54:36] <requerdanos> In the US, time change on Nov 5, and we are now an additional hour ahead of UTC (back to where we were before daylight saving time)
[20:55:45] <Bytram> how long until the meeting?
[20:55:49] <janrinok> requerdanos, mechanicjay sends his apologies - he will not be attending. A victim of the time change
[20:55:57] <janrinok> bytram 5 Mins
[20:56:37] <Bytram> oh, I thot I was late :(
[20:56:54] <janrinok> no, I've just got time for a pee!
[20:57:17] <Bytram> good idea!.
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[20:58:41] <janrinok> ah, that's better!
[20:59:58] <k0lie> im here yea
[21:00:22] <k0lie> Almost missed but luckily I jsut chcked the clock.
[21:00:30] <janrinok> Time for a roll call?
[21:00:38] * janrinok Here
[21:00:43] * Fnord666 is here
[21:00:45] * requerdanos Here
[21:01:22] * k0lie is here
[21:01:41] <janrinok> Bytran is here
[21:01:58] <janrinok> mechanicjay sends his apologies
[21:02:25] <janrinok> any sign of cmn32480 ?
[21:02:35] * Deucalion is here
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[21:03:13] <janrinok> we have a quorum but no Chair
[21:05:02] <requerdanos> Perhaps we should give it a few minutes? That's worked in the past
[21:05:07] <janrinok> yep
[21:05:10] * Bytram would volunteer but I struggle to read and type
[21:05:22] * Fnord666 can chair the meeting if needed.
[21:05:46] <Bytram> Fnord666++
[21:06:12] <Fnord666> While we wait requerdanos would you please post a link to the minutes from the last meeting?
[21:06:20] <requerdanos> Minutes, https://soylentnews.org
[21:06:32] <requerdanos> hmm, that link isn't so complete as I intended
[21:06:51] <requerdanos> Should say https://soylentnews.org
[21:07:01] <Fnord666> Thank you.
[21:09:22] <Fnord666> Our normal agenda:
[21:09:53] <Fnord666> Minutes
[21:09:57] <Fnord666> Reports
[21:10:02] <Fnord666> Old Business
[21:10:05] <Fnord666> New Business
[21:10:26] <Fnord666> Dismissal to RL
[21:10:53] <Fnord666> Shall we get started?
[21:10:55] <janrinok> Are we called to order - or just warming up?
[21:11:13] <Fnord666> It's 10 after, let's get called to order.
[21:11:23] <janrinok> you have control
[21:11:41] <Fnord666> Any additions or corrections to the minutes as posted by requerdanos?
[21:11:56] <Fnord666> For the 11/1/23 meeting?
[21:12:11] <Bytram> none from me
[21:12:15] <janrinok> no
[21:12:30] <Fnord666> Hearing none they stand as published
[21:12:52] <Fnord666> Do we have any outstanding reports that people are ready to present?
[21:13:37] <Fnord666> If not we can move on to old business.
[21:14:10] <Fnord666> kolie: You had an action item to revised the draft of the bylaws. How goes it?
[21:14:25] <k0lie> I did and they were posted. They are ready for another republish probably.
[21:14:39] <janrinok> I think that they are just about done
[21:14:40] <k0lie> There's one item I said I'd revise and I need to make that change.
[21:14:54] <k0lie> I forgot what it was so I'll rescan it after this and get it back out.
[21:15:14] <k0lie> I'm not sure if everyone is following the revisions in the journal.
[21:15:16] <k0lie> Good discussion there.
[21:15:45] <Fnord666> Lol. Ok. Please post a link to the related journal entry when you have a moment.
[21:15:55] <k0lie> https://soylentnews.org
[21:15:58] <janrinok> we are now at the 'one would prefer this - another would prefer that' They are just about ready for prime time IMO
[21:16:30] <Fnord666> I'm assuming they are the journal entry titled "Draft Bylaws Six"
[21:16:35] <janrinok> yes
[21:16:40] <Fnord666> Thank you.
[21:16:41] <k0lie> Yea and I need to go back through and have a full cleanup and syntax and spelling drill down.
[21:16:57] <requerdanos> so as an action item we can expect an upcoming Draft Bylaws Seven?
[21:16:59] <k0lie> Seven is ready more or less, it will get posted after this
[21:17:06] <requerdanos> Got it.
[21:17:20] <k0lie> It would be good interim of meetings to have questions in #gov or #meeting-discuss
[21:17:22] <k0lie> Or the journal.
[21:17:39] <Fnord666> Is there anything in revision 6 that we need to discuss in this meeting?
[21:17:40] <k0lie> IRC leads to more free flowing conversation as it is and may flesh out some conerns or better discussion.
[21:18:29] <janrinok> Fnord666, not really IMO.
[21:18:40] <k0lie> Uhm, I mean I don't know what people might find discussion worthy. I think we'd all agree with most of the changes so I've just been adding them in, and we can fine comb them at the end. The biggest discussions right now are proxy voting, which I think we agree can happen but limited which is cool
[21:18:48] <janrinok> But it is k0lie's call
[21:18:51] <k0lie> And uhh, the other thing was action without a meeting
[21:18:59] <k0lie> And uhh
[21:19:11] <k0lie> Board makeup/numbers/ how that plays out.
[21:19:27] <k0lie> To summarize, proxy voting I think we agreed to limit but keep.
[21:19:34] <janrinok> yes
[21:19:54] <k0lie> Action without a meeting, I see as a practical matter and needs to happen, and think additional reporting requirements of such and notifications is sufficient.
[21:20:10] <janrinok> I will have to accept that
[21:20:13] <k0lie> The flip side of that is no action without a meeting.
[21:20:32] <janrinok> (which is what I would prefer but....)
[21:20:49] <requerdanos> what's an example of an action that a hypothetical board would need to take without a meeting?
[21:21:15] <k0lie> Anything in the course of due business, for example, we require that all uhh, contracts be discussed right
[21:21:35] <k0lie> So lets say, site is getting ddos'd, its extreme most of these things would be mundane, but thats an easy one
[21:21:39] <k0lie> We need DDOS mitigation services.
[21:21:54] <k0lie> Board sends out an email, hey we need this, there is an issue, lets authorize and setup that service.
[21:22:00] <janrinok> That is not a bylaw issue though. sysadmins are responsible for that
[21:22:02] <k0lie> Everyone agrrees by email
[21:22:19] <k0lie> I understand but the sysadmins are empowered by the board.
[21:22:24] <requerdanos> I don't think sysadmins can spend money is the problem with that
[21:22:26] <janrinok> That is covered by existing policy
[21:22:41] <k0lie> I understand but the sysadmins are empowered by the board. All power and authority comes down from them.
[21:22:51] <k0lie> And yes they would need to sign the contract.
[21:23:18] <k0lie> It's basically a matter of practical daily business stuff that comes up. Most of the cases obvious of not needing a meeting - are things that are time sensitive.
[21:23:43] <janrinok> there is no urgency for DDOS mitigation services. We have a policy that covers today
[21:23:45] <k0lie> There is also a lot of formality for mundane issues that just get complicated by the meeting process.
[21:24:13] <Fnord666> Accountability is complicated.
[21:24:23] <k0lie> Which is why there is notifications and reporting requirements.
[21:24:42] <k0lie> And the ultimate accountability is in place, they will be judged and their decisions can be overruled.
[21:24:57] <janrinok> complication is not an issue - community involvement is. My concern is that decisions will be made out of meetings and then a quick discussion and vote in a formal meeting does not give the community any chance to see the issues
[21:25:32] <k0lie> So require those details to be reported and communicated.
[21:25:34] <requerdanos> that speaks more to the intent of those on the board than the configuration of the bylaws, I think.
[21:25:38] <k0lie> It does really.
[21:25:50] <k0lie> In that case they need to be removed.
[21:25:58] <janrinok> As an example - how often have we had to call in DDOS mitigation in the last 10 years?
[21:26:06] <Fnord666> So renewal of hosting agreement vs. say if someone tried to add advertising to the site.
[21:26:17] <k0lie> You've also been operating without proper bylaws and gentlemans agreements.
[21:26:32] <k0lie> This is just the legal framework describing it.
[21:26:35] <k0lie> You can do business as usual.
[21:26:42] <janrinok> Fnord666, I think we have covered those sort of problems
[21:27:02] <janrinok> That cannot be done without full community involvement
[21:27:14] <Fnord666> ok I was just trying to think of cases where the different levels of community involvement.
[21:27:26] <Fnord666> With different levels...
[21:27:28] <k0lie> The happy path isn't the board doing anything.
[21:27:34] <k0lie> The happy path is everything operates.
[21:27:46] <k0lie> The board is going to be invoked in circumstances requiring it, and they need the tools to handle the issues at hand.
[21:27:56] <k0lie> These exceptional cases shouldnt be the rules
[21:28:01] <k0lie> But the rules should have provisions to address abuse.
[21:28:04] <k0lie> I beleive they do.
[21:28:09] <janrinok> nobody is suggesting that it is - but it shouldn't have to be reacting to knee jerk problems either. We have teams to do that sort of thing.
[21:28:39] <k0lie> And they need officer sign off or board approval
[21:29:28] <janrinok> There are policies that cover those sort of things
[21:29:32] <k0lie> It's a practical matter. Can it be abused? They could do stuff and report on it according to the bylaws. If that is such an issue - you have remedy and it is to recall the board. Anything else would be abuse and ignoring the bylaws.
[21:30:15] <k0lie> If thats the case, people will people and you'd have to address it in court, the bylaws support the cases they need to and if they are ignored they are ignored thats a whole nother issue.
[21:30:31] <k0lie> You are going to have to have a non zero amount of faith in the board - if you don't dont put them in - recall them.
[21:30:45] <k0lie> Ultimate faith relies in democracy of the community, they will have that decision.
[21:31:01] <janrinok> we cannot cover every eventuality - I think that we have to rely on the community and what we have provided for them
[21:31:57] <k0lie> I agree, and thats why I think the restrictions are correct and the right fit, and they let action and things to occur that need to, and limit as much as is practical the "other eventualities".
[21:32:06] <k0lie> And the ultimate tool is an overriding community vote.
[21:32:26] <k0lie> With all that, I can sign off AS is on these, and be fine with whatever happens after.
[21:32:47] <k0lie> I think there may be some more considerations, but as is, its universally better than whats in place.
[21:33:10] <janrinok> I would suggest that you publish draft 7 and let more people get involved in picking holes
[21:33:36] <Deucalion> agree
[21:33:36] <k0lie> Yea good with that. I've been making fast edits just to get things going. Like I said we need a full detailed once over for inconsistencies and stuff.
[21:33:42] <Fnord666> Agreed. I think we are at that point now.
[21:33:42] <k0lie> So will do that today.
[21:33:49] <Deucalion> thanks
[21:33:52] <janrinok> I agree
[21:34:15] <Fnord666> Ready to move on?
[21:34:21] <Deucalion> 2nd
[21:34:21] <janrinok> yes from me
[21:34:25] <Deucalion> yes
[21:34:28] <k0lie> aye.
[21:34:39] <janrinok> is that an action on k0lie?
[21:34:52] <janrinok> (for the minutes)
[21:34:58] <requerdanos> That's what I have in my notes.
[21:35:04] <janrinok> 'k
[21:35:11] * Bytram wakes from falling asleep 12 min ago :(
[21:35:18] <Fnord666> Bytram? You ok?
[21:35:26] <Fnord666> Ready to move on?
[21:35:45] <janrinok> he is ill
[21:35:55] <Bytram> yes, just tired. tx fir asking
[21:36:07] <Fnord666> Gotcha. Do we have any other old business?
[21:36:20] <Bytram> janrinok: is correct
[21:36:37] <janrinok> nope
[21:36:42] <Deucalion> nope
[21:36:58] <Fnord666> Any new business that needs to be brought up at this time?
[21:37:05] <requerdanos> A housekeeping item: How far in advance should I draft a meta announcing that there's a meeting?
[21:37:14] <requerdanos> Someone Complained(tm)
[21:37:28] <janrinok> day before I would suggest - it is a weekly thing anyway
[21:38:03] <Fnord666> Agreed. That should be sufficient.
[21:38:11] <requerdanos> Okay. Will do.
[21:38:20] <k0lie> Yea a weekly reminder of the same time is fine a day before, just say its a regular thing in the post.
[21:38:20] <Deucalion> How about pushing one when we set the next date, followed up with a one or two day reminder?
[21:38:35] <requerdanos> that sounds like a lot of metas
[21:39:13] <janrinok> well we publish the next meeting in the minutes of each meeting
[21:39:22] <Deucalion> true
[21:39:37] <Fnord666> And in the topic of this channel
[21:39:38] <k0lie> Are minutes updates metas?
[21:39:40] <janrinok> If they don't read the minutes or attend the meetings they cannot be that interested
[21:40:01] <requerdanos> minutes updates go in journals.
[21:40:13] <k0lie> Ok thx.
[21:40:16] <janrinok> k0lie, no because the community asked us to stop doing that
[21:40:19] <requerdanos> so kind of on the front page, but not in the flow of things so to speak
[21:40:39] <k0lie> Yea I check for journals daily so I see them.
[21:42:02] <Bytram> how bout new 'topic' for it on the site
[21:42:38] <Bytram> ????
[21:42:51] <cmn32480> apologies.
[21:42:54] <cmn32480> just gort hjome
[21:42:58] <Fnord666> Interesting idea. Does anyone know what it takes to create one?
[21:43:16] <Fnord666> No worries cmn32480. It's all in the backscroll
[21:43:19] <Bytram> cmn32480: welcome
[21:43:22] <janrinok> I haven't done it but it is only the case of adding a new topic to the list
[21:44:19] <Bytram> janrinok++ I believe so
[21:44:34] <requerdanos> it honestly seems like "soylent" would be an appropriate topic to me.
[21:44:40] <Fnord666> Ok I see it in the config menu. Thoughts on creating a Governance topic and posting governance related news there?
[21:44:47] <janrinok> whether it is a good idea or not is a different matter. I agree with requerdanos
[21:44:53] <k0lie> Its more soylent than governance specific.
[21:45:10] <k0lie> But perhaps people want to seperate out soylent and soylent-governance issues.
[21:45:20] <Fnord666> Soylent does also make sense.
[21:45:28] <cmn32480> I'd go Soylent
[21:45:50] <janrinok> we have a suitable topic - Soylent
[21:45:53] <requerdanos> so meeting announcements one day ahead of time, under meta/soylent?
[21:46:01] <Fnord666> Well there you have it. Democracy in action.
[21:46:21] <Bytram> easier to fine discussions about governance discussion items
[21:46:30] <k0lie> Good with w/e.
[21:48:22] <Fnord666> Bytram do you want to clarify?
[21:48:44] <Bytram> easier to fine discussions about governance discussion items when looking in "governance" tham in "soylent"
[21:49:17] <Bytram> does that help?
[21:49:27] <Fnord666> Yes it does.
[21:49:31] <requerdanos> I can heartily searching for the word "meeting" -- this is surprisingly highly correlated with governance activity.
[21:49:37] <requerdanos> ^recommend
[21:49:38] <janrinok> not sure that justifies its own topic though
[21:50:49] <Fnord666> I think the broader concern is for the community at large to find relevant postings when Governance becomes the community's responsibility.
[21:51:25] <janrinok> I would let the new Board and community decide that for themselves
[21:51:28] <k0lie> I think we need a tag in every posting
[21:51:43] <k0lie> At the bottom. We meet every week. Journals are here.
[21:51:52] <Fnord666> Bite your hashtag kolie :)
[21:51:59] <Bytram> it would not be cluttered by other topics; acts like a cleat chronology of discuddions
[21:52:07] <janrinok> Do NOT agree with that
[21:52:16] <k0lie> Not every posting
[21:52:21] <k0lie> Every meta/journal about governance.
[21:52:49] <k0lie> A consistent message in every governance related posting or main journal, this is what we do, irc, journals, schedule.
[21:52:53] <janrinok> they only have to look at the title here or at the minutes of the last meeting as it is.
[21:52:59] <k0lie> Sure.
[21:53:02] <k0lie> If they know to do so.
[21:53:10] <k0lie> But yea it may be too much
[21:53:23] <Fnord666> Oh $deity now we'll need a mission statement....
[21:53:25] <requerdanos> if they don't know to do so, then the meta once a week can introduce them to the concept, sure
[21:53:30] <k0lie> w/e just a thought. it seemed like redgreen or whatever didnt even know we met regularly.
[21:53:46] <janrinok> No - the next Board will need a mission statement. Our role is just to create it
[21:54:15] <k0lie> " to explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations; to boldly go where no man has gone before"
[21:54:17] <Fnord666> I forgot the /s
[21:54:24] <janrinok> The rest of the world knows: http://techrights.org
[21:54:42] <Fnord666> OK, we are tabling the discussion for now re a new topic, correct?
[21:55:15] <Bytram> it seems it was not wekk received I retract my suggestion of a new topic
[21:55:16] <Fnord666> When should we revisit it?
[21:55:27] <Fnord666> Ah, ok.
[21:55:41] <k0lie> Alright we all good I've got a pounding headache and need to eat.
[21:55:55] <Fnord666> OK. The proposed next meeting is 11/15/23 at 21:00 UTC. Any disagreement?
[21:56:12] <k0lie> It's harder for me to make 2100 with the time change.
[21:56:27] <k0lie> Jan, you are staying up late already right?
[21:56:46] <Deucalion> it's a perfect time for me
[21:56:49] <janrinok> still awake - it is an hour earlier for the last 2 weeks
[21:57:01] <Bytram> k0lie: what time is that is your local zone
[21:57:03] <requerdanos> an hour earlier works better for me, sorry it makes it harder for you
[21:57:08] <janrinok> Deucalion, far more civilised
[21:57:17] <Fnord666> I'm good with either.
[21:57:27] <k0lie> 1PM - the middle of my work day and lunch is disruptive. 2 wasnt bad which is what it is now.
[21:57:44] <k0lie> I can do it if its not convenient.
[21:57:46] <cmn32480> I'm fine w/ whatever as long as I am WFH.
[21:57:52] <Deucalion> an hour earlier would be ok with me if it is so willed
[21:57:56] <k0lie> Just checking in what everyone else is with the time change.
[21:58:27] <k0lie> Alright I'm good with 2100 still. I'll schedule around it. Today was a lead balloon but atleast now I know how it goes.
[21:58:30] <Fnord666> Deucalion: I think the proposal would be an hour later actually, so 22:00 rather than 21:00
[21:58:47] <Deucalion> also be ok with me Fnord666
[21:59:02] <Fnord666> Sounds like it remains 21:00 UTC for at least the next meeting.
[21:59:06] <Bytram> either current or houw earlier is fine w// me
[21:59:19] <janrinok> I don't want later
[21:59:25] <k0lie> Ok. 2100 it is,
[21:59:27] <Deucalion> :D stalemate
[21:59:28] <Fnord666> I was just going to ask you.
[21:59:44] <k0lie> seems like consensus that the current time is good still.
[21:59:53] <janrinok> it is a compromise
[22:00:01] <Fnord666> Done. The next meeting will be held on 11/15/23 at 21:00 UTC
[22:00:12] <k0lie> adjourn??
[22:00:16] Deucalion changed topic of #governance to: SoylentNews Governance Committee - Next Meeting is on Wednesday Nov 15th at 21:00 UTC | This channel IS logged and publicly displayed here https://logs.sylnt.us
[22:00:31] <Fnord666> Final call. Anyone have anything before we adjourn?
[22:00:36] <janrinok> we haven't had any votes - so I will say Aye just for the hell of it
[22:00:46] <Deucalion> nothing more from me
[22:00:52] <cmn32480> nothign here
[22:00:53] <janrinok> nothing
[22:01:01] <Bytram> nada
[22:01:13] <k0lie> I'm out for a bit, ill get out my notes in a few hours. thx guys and gals
[22:01:14] <Fnord666> requerdanos?
[22:01:21] <requerdanos> i have nothing further :)
[22:01:28] <Fnord666> This meeting is adjourned.
[22:01:39] <Deucalion> thank you cha
[22:01:43] <Deucalion> oops
[22:01:50] <Deucalion> thank you for chairing
[22:01:52] <janrinok> thanks everyone - and thanks to k0lie for the bylaws work. We got through a lot in the last 7 days
[22:02:12] <Deucalion> thanks requerdanos for minuting etc
[22:02:16] <Bytram> Fnord666: thanks!
[22:02:18] <requerdanos> but of course
[22:02:42] <janrinok> I will just join the discussion channel to se if there are any questions
[22:04:56] <janrinok> goodnight all ! Deucalion, any problems with last week's storm?
[22:05:12] <requerdanos> Peace and thanks, goodnight
[22:05:33] <Deucalion> no problem with it around my way janrinok, just a tad wet. Others got it worse
[22:05:33] <janrinok> u2
[22:05:57] <janrinok> bit of damage here to the house and several of my trees deciding to lie down
[22:06:10] <Deucalion> firewood :D
[22:06:44] <janrinok> exactly - I have lived here for 16 years now and never had to pay for any wood for my home.
[22:06:46] <Deucalion> nothing too major I hope
[22:07:25] <janrinok> nothing structural - more cosmetic. A bit of tile damage where part of a tree took to flying
[22:07:28] * Bytram heads back off to bed; being sick sucks :(
[22:07:37] <janrinok> get well soon Bytram
[22:07:46] <Deucalion> hope you improve soon Bytram
[22:07:48] <Bytram> thants everyone!
[22:08:26] <janrinok> had no power for 12 hours but most of that was during my night so I was in bed
[22:09:09] <Deucalion> as long as the freezer stays frozen that's not too awful
[22:09:45] <janrinok> 12 hours is not a problem especially at this time of the year. 24 hours in a hot summer starts to cause problems
[22:12:34] <Deucalion> I don't recall any 12 hour power outages let alone 24 hours in the time I've lived here
[22:14:52] <janrinok> they were not common here until the last few years. The weather has changed significantly over the last 5 years or so. Farming is having a rough time with hot spells when we expect winter and horrible weather in the middle of Summer
[22:15:43] <Deucalion> Should be building new nukes not closing them all
[22:16:48] <janrinok> we still have plenty. It is not a power generation problem but the power distribution network that is being disrupted - but you know that.
[22:18:09] <janrinok> Anyway - it is time for me to be going to sleep. I will wish you goodnight and speak to you when next out paths cross. Take care.
[22:18:23] <Deucalion> Not sure what the answer is to that. Can't realistically put it all under ground
[22:18:32] <Deucalion> You too. G'Night
[22:18:35] <janrinok> nope
[22:24:04] -!- aristarchus has quit [Quit: Client closed]