#governance | Logs for 2023-10-18

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[10:43:55] <aristarches> Agenda will be posted?
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[19:36:54] * janrinok is here
[19:59:49] <mechanicjay> I'm around -- we have like 30 minutes, right?
[20:00:23] <requerdanos> More like an hour.
[20:01:07] <janrinok> yeah, an hour from now
[20:02:44] <k0lie> My notes on the draft 4 bylaws circulated by jan https://soylentnews.org
[20:03:28] <mechanicjay> great, def time to grab lunch then
[20:04:04] <k0lie> 21:00 utc yea shit need to get food I recalled it as 21:30
[20:04:34] <k0lie> I had court this morning and just got out so I'm a little all over Ill try to be here but my day got shoved all around.
[20:05:07] <k0lie> I did speak with outside counsel re: some of the items I said I would.
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[20:58:21] <janrinok> Bytram, ping
[20:58:56] <k0lie> going to take a quick bio
[21:00:12] <mechanicjay> Hi everyone
[21:00:18] <janrinok> check in time!
[21:00:23] * janrinok is here
[21:00:27] * Fnord666 is here
[21:00:35] <mechanicjay> check check, check one two
[21:00:37] * Deucalion kicks through a wall and says "here"
[21:00:43] * mechanicjay taps mic
[21:00:45] * requerdanos checks in
[21:01:14] <janrinok> that's five so far and kolie is here too
[21:01:17] <mechanicjay> well, if Kolie comes back and Bytram is around, that'll be a quorum
[21:01:41] <janrinok> Bytram I have not seen/heard today
[21:02:14] <mechanicjay> hang on, important phone call
[21:02:34] <Deucalion> pizza delivery guy can't find the address :D
[21:03:10] <Fnord666> It's his psyche telling him he's going to call in an hour.
[21:03:10] <janrinok> :) - he said important, not vital!
[21:03:13] <requerdanos> pizza delivery guys with android-based maps find my house fine, but with apple maps they end up at the wrong end of the street and get lost.
[21:03:20] <Fnord666> It's his psychic telling him he's going to call in an hour.
[21:04:05] <k0lie> Here,
[21:04:20] <Fnord666> That's six
[21:04:45] <janrinok> just wait for mechanicjay's phone call to end...
[21:06:16] <janrinok> Deucalion, are you on call this week?
[21:06:26] <Deucalion> yup.
[21:07:04] <janrinok> well if you suddenly go quiet we will assume that you have been called out, and not that you have gone to sleep.
[21:07:08] <mechanicjay> Okay, sorry about that. Managerial duty knows no bounds
[21:07:26] <mechanicjay> Lets take actual Roll
[21:07:30] * mechanicjay here
[21:07:35] * janrinok still here
[21:07:36] * requerdanos actually rolls
[21:07:37] * Fnord666 here
[21:08:10] <janrinok> kolie was here a minute ago
[21:08:31] <k0lie> still here.
[21:08:32] <mechanicjay> indeed so was Deucalion
[21:08:36] * Deucalion here
[21:08:43] <janrinok> that's 6
[21:08:47] <mechanicjay> great, that's enough
[21:09:06] <mechanicjay> Let's get started
[21:09:22] <mechanicjay> I submit last meetings minutes for approval:
[21:09:22] <mechanicjay> https://soylentnews.org
[21:10:15] <Deucalion> seconded
[21:10:23] <mechanicjay> all in favor:
[21:10:26] * mechanicjay aye
[21:10:26] <Deucalion> aye
[21:10:28] <Fnord666> aye
[21:10:30] * janrinok aye
[21:10:31] <k0lie> aye
[21:10:35] <mechanicjay> Approved
[21:10:55] <mechanicjay> Proposed minutes for today:
[21:10:55] <mechanicjay>   1) Minutes
[21:10:55] <mechanicjay>   2) Agenda
[21:10:55] <mechanicjay>   3) Reports
[21:10:55] <mechanicjay>         3a) Draft Bylaws
[21:10:57] <mechanicjay>         3b) Lawyer Questions
[21:10:59] <mechanicjay>   4) Old business
[21:11:01] <mechanicjay>   5) New Business
[21:11:03] <mechanicjay>   6) Adjourn
[21:11:16] <mechanicjay> erm, proposed agenda, rather
[21:11:25] <Deucalion> seconded
[21:11:43] <k0lie> I have general comments on the drafts brought up. Fit it in where you want. I just want to summarize my thoughts and let people read and discuss the content of my post at the next meeting.
[21:12:11] <mechanicjay> seems like that go in as part of 3b
[21:12:15] <mechanicjay> eesh, 3a
[21:12:22] <k0lie> Great.
[21:12:23] <janrinok> Thanks for your notes - I've scanned them but not had time to assimilate it all yet
[21:13:08] <mechanicjay> okay, all in favor of approval:
[21:13:10] * mechanicjay aye
[21:13:11] * requerdanos aye
[21:13:13] * Fnord666 aye
[21:13:13] <k0lie> aye.
[21:13:15] <janrinok> aye
[21:13:18] <Deucalion> aye
[21:13:23] <mechanicjay> Approved
[21:13:35] <mechanicjay> On to the meat and potatoes then
[21:14:03] <mechanicjay> 3a Bylaws -- is there anything new to report here?
[21:14:05] <mechanicjay> kolie?
[21:14:14] <k0lie> Hi.
[21:14:24] <k0lie> Yea so went over the draft, main comments are, it empowers the board too much.
[21:14:42] <k0lie> I'd defer more to the community and spell out that workings of that.
[21:14:59] <k0lie> That was the main observation.
[21:15:11] <k0lie> Id also potential defer much of anything other than community definitions and board
[21:15:17] <k0lie> to s aseperate document, thats more of a structural change.
[21:15:40] <k0lie> The content as much was largely fine, outside of I would empower the ocmmunity where possible, and reorganize some of the staff stuff.
[21:15:49] <k0lie> See my post and probably talk next meeting.
[21:15:51] <janrinok> the board has to make some decisions, otherwise everything goes to the community. We will be voting full time. Isn't that why we have community reps on the board?
[21:15:51] <k0lie> thanks.
[21:16:09] <k0lie> I agree, the point would be the community, if it so wanted, would override board stuff.
[21:16:17] <k0lie> Its not everything is up to the community
[21:16:34] <Fnord666> Would you provide a link to your post for the record please kolie
[21:16:36] <k0lie> Its everything is handled by the board, but the community can intervene on pretty much everything, if it has met certain criteria.
[21:16:45] <k0lie> https://soylentnews.org
[21:16:48] <janrinok> That might leave the whole system up to disruption if a small number wanted to do that.
[21:16:49] <Fnord666> gracias
[21:17:04] <k0lie> The criteria for doing so should be defined.
[21:17:27] <janrinok> I will leave that definition up to you then - I haven't got a clue
[21:17:50] <k0lie> something like, bylaws require a super majority vote of thec ommunity, etc.
[21:18:06] <mechanicjay> that makes sense
[21:18:19] <k0lie> we'd have to define community further.
[21:18:22] <requerdanos> how much is a super-majority?
[21:18:22] <mechanicjay> Have we fallen on a definition of community?
[21:18:36] <janrinok> Except that we expect the bylaws to change quite a bit once we get started. That will still be a lot of voting
[21:19:20] <janrinok> It is actually written in that for the first 2 years they can change frequently, then they are frozen when everyone is happy
[21:19:27] <k0lie> I saw that.
[21:19:32] <mechanicjay> I think super majority is something like 2/3
[21:19:32] <k0lie> I wouldnt impose that.
[21:19:45] <k0lie> Wahtever it is, we should determine the critera and cases.
[21:20:10] <janrinok> how long is a piece of string?
[21:20:23] <k0lie> shorter than the spool.
[21:20:43] <k0lie> Anyways, those were my notes. I think theres more work to do on that front.
[21:21:17] <mechanicjay> okay, thanks kolie
[21:21:27] <k0lie> I agree an efficient voting system needs to be in place to suppor that.
[21:21:37] <mechanicjay> Anyone else have bylaws related things to say?
[21:21:47] <janrinok> nope
[21:22:34] <Deucalion> no
[21:22:43] <mechanicjay> k, 3b lawyerish things
[21:22:43] <Fnord666> no
[21:23:05] <mechanicjay> kolie: again, I think you had something to report here?
[21:23:11] <k0lie> Sure anyone else first?
[21:23:32] <k0lie> If not...
[21:23:35] <janrinok> I asked fliptop to help too, but no response yet from him
[21:23:48] <k0lie> Ok so lets split this apart into ownership and everything else.
[21:24:04] <k0lie> The first question was org type
[21:24:56] <k0lie> Lawyer confirmed any was good - it comes down to tax requirements and what works best for the org. In terms of what applied here - he concluded a NFP was appropriate and could work, and likely had the best advantages.
[21:25:16] <k0lie> Coop had problems with non coop members taking $$$, otherwise was fine but had less advantages.
[21:25:54] <k0lie> Best place to incorporate - no specifics given there, other than just verify corporate fees and requirements different from federal - if in the us most states requirements are similar.
[21:26:15] <k0lie> There are a few no income tax states.
[21:26:18] <k0lie> And a few low fee states.
[21:26:26] <k0lie> Probably best to check those for other requirements and just go with it.
[21:26:35] <k0lie> Non US citizens on the board - my post addresses this.
[21:26:45] <k0lie> Basically, its fine, but there are uhh issues it brings up
[21:26:52] <k0lie> As long as a majority of the board is US - it avoids them.
[21:27:05] <k0lie> Treasurer for practical reasons, people accessing the bank account, way less problems if US
[21:27:37] <k0lie> Those were the main three questions
[21:27:41] <k0lie> As far as ownership goes
[21:28:01] <k0lie> Community based pwnership was a big question mark.
[21:28:16] <k0lie> Wasnt sure if its possible, and basically said I can't assist you there specifically.
[21:28:28] <k0lie> Wasnt a no but wasnt a yes, its pretty different from anything else out there.
[21:28:42] <k0lie> I asked for a few alternatives if its not.
[21:28:59] <k0lie> And basically heavy restrictions on board "ownership" as a legal concept.
[21:29:13] <k0lie> While the bylaws confer actual ownership to the voting party
[21:29:14] <k0lie> That might work.
[21:29:27] <k0lie> I'd prefer to find a way to give ownership to the uhh - community at large.
[21:29:34] <k0lie> But this was one alternative if its not possible.
[21:29:45] <k0lie> I have him seeking other lawyers for advice - but his was short there.
[21:29:56] <k0lie> Thats the 10 second version - I can elaborate on questions.
[21:30:25] <mechanicjay> Okay, any questions from the committee?
[21:30:43] <janrinok> Not quite sure what you meant by 'non coop members taking $$$'. Do you mean paying our bills or something else?
[21:31:05] <k0lie> If the corp takes subs/money whatever, if its a coop, that can be an issue.
[21:31:16] <k0lie> NFP, any money we discussed donation or subscription was not problematic.
[21:31:56] <requerdanos> virtually all money comes from "selling" "subscriptions", even that was ok under NFP?
[21:32:02] <k0lie> yes absolutely.
[21:32:03] <janrinok> I still can't see which 'non coop' members it would refer to but OK, we can leave it there
[21:32:15] <k0lie> So the members have to be defined
[21:32:24] <k0lie> And being ina coop requires more than we would requrie form our users.
[21:32:39] <k0lie> it would be hard to label them as members of a coop if they are just an ethereal account #
[21:32:41] <janrinok> in terms of information?
[21:33:05] <k0lie> Staff has a case for being a coop member, but the money wouldnt come from them.
[21:33:23] <mechanicjay> Oh interesting yeah, that makes sense.
[21:33:39] <janrinok> I would have thought that any account would do, but OK...
[21:34:01] <k0lie> being a member of a coop, is a legal status, and that confers certain requirements of the organization we'd have to hold members to
[21:34:05] <k0lie> I don't think it would work.
[21:34:11] <mechanicjay> I've been thinking of this in terms of the grocery coop down the street. They take in money all the time, from both "members" and the general public. But the Members, are technically owners and get a vote AND they have like real meatspace information about you.
[21:34:33] <k0lie> Sure.
[21:34:43] <mechanicjay> So, yeah, I can kinda see how that model isn't really workable here
[21:35:11] <k0lie> The legal framework envisions non internet things and so this is a weird case ofcourse.
[21:35:36] <janrinok> OK - it was different in the UK. You have a membership certificate and the holder is the coop member - doesn't matter who it is.
[21:36:38] <janrinok> thanks, that cleared that up
[21:36:48] <k0lie> Yea so answers to most of our pendign questions, except the weirdest one.
[21:36:59] <k0lie> I think we may have to keep our eyes open for resources.
[21:37:22] <requerdanos> well *someone* has to own the organization... right?
[21:37:24] <k0lie> Or confer voting to the community but actual ownership limited in the bylaws to the corp/board.
[21:37:37] <k0lie> yea there has to be someone legally doing it.
[21:38:07] <janrinok> so we won't see much of a change from now - somebody will still 'own' it
[21:38:14] <k0lie> it would be nice if our concept of ownership lines up with the legal term.
[21:38:45] <mechanicjay> Well, I think the deal with the NFP is that it owns itself, right? People just manage it?
[21:38:54] <k0lie> The ownership - lets say we cant give it to the community - make it non transferabble and voted on by the community.,
[21:39:13] <requerdanos> I am on the board of a NFP that no one owns. Heck i am the president of that board.
[21:39:27] <k0lie> Exactly.
[21:40:09] <k0lie> So the bylaws need to restrict "ownership" in practical terms to the community.
[21:40:23] <k0lie> And if we can't explicity list that owner, thats the best way to handle it.
[21:41:20] <requerdanos> I don't see why ownership is required. The corporation can be an entity controlled nominally by a board and voting body of community but where is the requirement that some other person or entity own it?
[21:42:06] <k0lie> It may or may not be required. What he was unsure of is if we could give ownership to a group like that.
[21:42:24] <k0lie> Not disputing that NFP's are effectively governed not owned.
[21:42:41] <mechanicjay> I'm getting muddled on terminology here.
[21:42:43] <requerdanos> I would think that the bylaws should not address "ownership" and should focus on the governance.
[21:43:13] <requerdanos> we aren't looking to have "new overlords" in the form of an owning person or group of persons
[21:43:27] <mechanicjay> it seems that if NFP is the route, the legal ownership question is moot. At that point it's about who has a vote.
[21:43:43] <k0lie> yeop so if the corp type we choose DOES require ownership, we limit it, and if it doesn,t we spell out that the community overrides all.
[21:44:40] <k0lie> unles we can assign it out, which is the weird part.
[21:44:45] <k0lie> NFP seems to avoid a lot of the weird stuff.
[21:45:27] <requerdanos> and to make an nfp, one would incorporate as an "__________" (insert type of corporation here) and then apply for not for profit status
[21:45:47] <requerdanos> I am a little fuzzy on the answer to the above, but that's generally it, right?
[21:45:55] <janrinok> who will write this bit of the bylaws - because I cannot, I do not even know what we are trying to achieve.
[21:45:57] <mechanicjay> if true, thats an important point
[21:45:58] <k0lie> yea nfp is a status granted on a corporation.
[21:46:15] <mechanicjay> Because there is still a declared corp type needed
[21:46:28] <Deucalion> PBC anyone? sounds famiiar
[21:46:37] <requerdanos> A corp, B corp, S corp, XYZ corp, etc.
[21:47:09] <k0lie> I can ask ig he has input on whats the best base corp or how it might matter.
[21:47:19] <Deucalion> would be good
[21:48:00] <k0lie> I believe it depends on state - there are specific non stock corporations.
[21:48:14] <k0lie> I forget but I'll run it by him its a quick answer.
[21:49:06] <requerdanos> Excellent, thank you
[21:51:16] <mechanicjay> okay -- sounds like discussion is drying up on this
[21:52:22] <mechanicjay> Does it sound to anyone else like we should move away from coops, as based on legal advice it may complicate things greatly?
[21:53:06] <janrinok> It seems that we are going to stay very much as we are is my reading of it
[21:53:33] <Deucalion> mechanicjay, It sounds that way based on what I've heard here.
[21:53:49] <k0lie> as we are is a for stock pbc
[21:54:02] <k0lie> with full board responsibility and ownership
[21:54:04] <requerdanos> I'd fight staying as we are. being "owned" would be bad news, witness current situation.
[21:54:30] <k0lie> That sucks so yea - the options of coop or not aren't the status quo, but coop doesn't seem to check all the boxes.
[21:54:32] <janrinok> we will still be a PBC though?
[21:54:48] <k0lie> PBC isn't necessary unless we want it.
[21:54:52] <mechanicjay> right -- talking about something like a no-stock corp -- maybe a defined onwers group which consists of these comiteemembers while we apply for NFP status
[21:55:05] <janrinok> well nobody has mentioned any alternatives
[21:55:25] <k0lie> Non stock, and corporate structure with limited ownership capabilities, pbc, llc, s, its endless.
[21:55:33] <requerdanos> I mentioned S corp, A corp, and B corp, (and the fictional/hypothetical XYZ corp)
[21:55:45] <k0lie> Its not that we dont have options, coop seems not likely though as a final choice.
[21:56:01] <k0lie> But yea non-stock corps are going to likely be fruitful
[21:56:04] <k0lie> so let me get clarification there.
[21:56:25] <k0lie> alright all good.
[21:56:42] <Deucalion> The more info the better
[21:57:49] <Fnord666> https://www.delawareinc.com
[21:58:01] <mechanicjay> Okay, as an action item, Kolie is going to follow up with his legal contact on non-stock corps (is that right?)
[21:58:48] <k0lie> yea.
[21:59:06] <mechanicjay> Okay, moving on.
[21:59:23] <mechanicjay> I don't believe there is any "old Business"
[21:59:33] <mechanicjay> Any new Business?
[21:59:39] <mechanicjay> or old?
[21:59:41] <mechanicjay> any at all?
[22:00:02] <mechanicjay> going once
[22:00:05] <mechanicjay> two
[22:00:07] <janrinok> I would like to know who is going to be writing the bylaws - I cannot give it the time it deserves
[22:00:45] <mechanicjay> A good question. It seems as though the community member who was helping is no longer involved, correct?
[22:00:53] <mechanicjay> AG is incommunicade
[22:01:01] <janrinok> Since ag had his medical issue he has not been around
[22:01:14] <janrinok> I have given far too many hours already
[22:02:18] <janrinok> sounds like nobody....
[22:02:27] <mechanicjay> Yes, you've done a lot
[22:02:31] <k0lie> We can collectively edit and add to them. I don't mind editing them or preparing them based on discussions here.
[22:02:40] <mechanicjay> thanks K0lie
[22:03:00] <janrinok> we tried that but there was not much support
[22:03:10] <k0lie> I'm more worried about getting the main ideas in a working document, and then fully fleshing out the necessities, nuts and bolts once we have a basic draft with the main line items figured out.
[22:03:49] <janrinok> I am more worried about getting a company created, paying the $1, and then we can get moving on lots of things.
[22:03:49] <k0lie> The formatting, sections, and legal requirements, kind of a last pass item.
[22:04:06] <janrinok> The site is stagnating
[22:04:09] <k0lie> I meant in so far as the bylaws were concerned.
[22:04:38] <janrinok> and we cannot create a company until we have the bylaws.....
[22:05:18] <k0lie> We could create a company with any bylaws and modify them later. I believe we chose not to.
[22:05:48] <janrinok> That is why the current bylaws say that is exactly what we will do
[22:05:56] <mechanicjay> exactly
[22:06:03] <janrinok> because nobody else is contributing
[22:06:59] <janrinok> The type of org is important, the content of the bylaws less so
[22:07:24] <k0lie> I'll get back on the topic of corporate type before the community, if we are good with that, I can draft up bylaws with the latest ideas in 4, any changes we like or dont like, and my take on community governance.
[22:07:31] <k0lie> If we agree to that, we can incorporate when we like.
[22:07:50] <Deucalion> Would we really want to form a new org with Bylaws that just say essentially "to be decided" and then they stay that way for a decade?
[22:07:52] <Fnord666> You will need a registered agent in whatever state you incorporate
[22:08:31] <janrinok> indeed, we need _some_ bylaws, the they need not be perfect, only legal
[22:08:47] <Deucalion> fair enough
[22:09:31] <k0lie> Yea - so we are pretty close to that - I think the latest draft was very board friendly and not in line with current outlooks on board governed corporations. The changes I propose, read them, and see how they address that. I'll get an answer on corp setup and we can likely have a roadmap at the next meeting if we want one.
[22:09:57] <requerdanos> I have down under new business -> bylaws going forward that kolie is going to make an edit of the bylaws in consideration of committee discussion, for the consideration of the committee. right?
[22:10:13] <mechanicjay> that's my understanding
[22:10:25] <Deucalion> same
[22:10:37] <janrinok> same
[22:10:50] <requerdanos> I appreciate the work of everyone who has touched the bylaws. Thank you very much.
[22:10:53] <k0lie> I might wait to see what consul says regarding corp type.
[22:11:06] <Deucalion> That would be wise
[22:11:17] <k0lie> because that might change the bylaws accordingly.
[22:11:22] <mechanicjay> right
[22:11:29] <k0lie> So let me see what he has first, and then go from there next meeting.
[22:11:35] <mechanicjay> okay. Any thing else to discuss?
[22:11:43] <k0lie> Nah im good.
[22:11:49] <Deucalion> next meeting date
[22:11:52] <janrinok> nothing from me
[22:12:05] <Fnord666> I'm good.
[22:12:08] <mechanicjay> Propose next meeting Oct 25th at whatever the hell time this one was at
[22:12:10] <janrinok> 25th Oct same time?
[22:12:20] <janrinok> 21:00 UTC
[22:12:23] <mechanicjay> yep, second, aye, whatever
[22:12:30] <Fnord666> Third?
[22:12:32] <janrinok> aye
[22:12:37] <mechanicjay> can I get a fifth?
[22:13:05] <Deucalion> aye Weds 25th Oct 21:00 UTC. Watch out for any dst changes in you locale :D
[22:13:11] <Deucalion> aye
[22:13:15] <Fnord666> aye
[22:13:19] <mechanicjay> great, approved
[22:13:26] <janrinok> my dst changes on the 29th
[22:13:26] <mechanicjay> motion to ajdourn
[22:13:31] <Fnord666> seconded
[22:13:31] <janrinok> seconded
[22:13:36] <Fnord666> Hah!
[22:13:39] <mechanicjay> all in favor
[22:13:41] * mechanicjay aye
[22:13:42] <Fnord666> aye
[22:13:43] <janrinok> aye
[22:13:59] <Deucalion> SoylentNews Governance Committee - Next Meeting is on Wednesday Oct 25th at 21:00 UTC | This channel IS logged and publicly displayed here https://logs.sylnt.us
[22:14:00] <requerdanos> aye
[22:14:00] <Deucalion> aye
[22:14:02] * mechanicjay whacks the gavel
[22:14:06] <mechanicjay> we are ajourned
[22:14:14] Deucalion changed topic of #governance to: SoylentNews Governance Committee - Next Meeting is on Wednesday Oct 25th at 21:00 UTC | This channel IS logged and publicly displayed here https://logs.sylnt.us
[22:14:22] <mechanicjay> thanks everyone!
[22:14:28] <Fnord666> Thank you!
[22:14:50] <Fnord666> Every circus needs a ringleader after all. :)
[22:14:54] <k0lie> yay.
[22:14:56] <janrinok> Thanks to all,
[22:17:08] <janrinok> goodnight all!
[22:17:20] <Deucalion> night janrinok
[22:17:44] <janrinok> I hope you have a quiet night too
[22:18:00] <Deucalion> Time will tell :)
[22:18:18] <Deucalion> Get some sleep while I can
[22:19:25] * Deucalion becomes fluid and seeps away through the cracks in the floor
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