#governance | Logs for 2023-09-21
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[17:55:32] <notkolie> Bytram, cmn32480, Deucalion, Fnord666, janrinok, mechanicjay, requerdanos there is an email going around not sure if you are privy to it yet. It went to admin@ and editors@ on soylentnews from janrinok and I sent my response back to the same.
[17:56:21] <notkolie> If people feel that progress isn't being made and that this committee is a waste of time - that's an issue on the part of the members of this committee not making progress and wasting time.
[17:56:48] <notkolie> Certainly progress can be made and it's clear what needs to be done to move forward.
[17:57:13] <notkolie> Janrinok said he is no longer willing to write bylaws or participate as such.
[17:58:10] <notkolie> He proposed to me to create a company with whatever bylaws I'd like.
[17:59:24] <cosurgi> "and it's clear what needs to be done to move forward: ←← So what needs to be done ?
[17:59:31] <cosurgi> "and it's clear what needs to be done to move forward" ←← So what needs to be done ?
[18:00:15] <notkolie> Incorporate a new organization with bylaws. Elect a temp board. Pass a staff policy resolution under the temp board. Hold community elections for board.
[18:00:40] <cosurgi> OK! So let's do this :-)
[18:01:18] <notkolie> Only component really missing.
[18:01:26] <notkolie> Is a tool to handle the voting.
[18:02:01] <cosurgi> irc voting via saying 'yes / no' doesn't suffice ?
[18:02:13] <notkolie> I wouldn't suggest it or include it in the bylaw.s
[18:02:37] <notkolie> This would like something like a site wide vote for active uids.
[18:03:16] <notkolie> And for election of board seats etc.
[18:03:29] <cosurgi> Ah, you mean voting for whole community, everyine who has an account on soylentnews.org ?
[18:03:49] <notkolie> A system appropriate to this style of voting which avoids bullshit is proportial ranked choice voting.
[18:04:01] <notkolie> cosurgi, without getting into the specifics, yes.
[18:05:15] <janrinok> notkolie, of course they are privy to it. But as it is my personal opinion it it shouldn't matter who I send it to does it? The problem is that not a single suggestion that we have raised has been accepted. Not one. The new bylaws are just as flawed as the existing bylaws but our changes have not been acceptable.
[18:06:06] <notkolie> What I meant is it just went out - they might not have seen it yet.
[18:06:15] <notkolie> Fuck people just jump on negativity here./
[18:06:23] <janrinok> There is software available that can handle the voting. Just ask those who know how we are organised instead of guessing please.
[18:06:57] <cosurgi> who is going to implement that voting on site?
[18:07:12] <janrinok> kolie Because there has been so much negativity going around about how much say we can actually have.
[18:07:15] <cosurgi> (we already know that "Poll" isn't working, right?)
[18:07:24] <janrinok> cosurgi, audioguy has it ready
[18:07:35] <cosurgi> ah! Nice! I didn't know.
[18:07:50] <notkolie> Ok well audioguy can send over the details. I'm not guessing. I'm having an open constructive conversation in the channel dedicated to moving this forward.
[18:08:06] * cosurgi moves forward!
[18:08:07] <notkolie> If it suits the purposes then cool.
[18:08:51] <janrinok> Send the details to whom. I thought you said we were the committee. We know about it.
[18:09:24] <notkolie> Well speaking as a member of the committee I'm not sure what its capabple of doing.
[18:10:27] <notkolie> Can it handle voting/electing multi seat positions fairly and representatively?
[18:10:31] <janrinok> yes
[18:11:08] <notkolie> Ok well let's see it. If it works then we are very near to using it for its purpose.
[18:12:01] <notkolie> if not there are pRCV libs out there which we could easily build a front end to collect votes for and feed into.
[18:12:18] <janrinok> another 30 minute script is it?
[18:12:37] <notkolie> No a front end and voting framework isn't a 30 minute script.
[18:12:50] <notkolie> Running statistics on logins and checking those against a known bad database is.
[18:13:40] <janrinok> so you have written the latter already have you? Can I have my server back then please?
[18:14:38] <notkolie> Do whatever you like I'm not your boss and haven't asked for this. You do it for the site and the community not me.
[18:14:50] <notkolie> Same reason we are all here. site and community.
[18:16:59] <janrinok> I am not seeing your contribution though other than telling everyone else what we should write. If you know what you want, write it down.
[18:17:12] <notkolie> I don't know the details of your script so I can't replicate it. I can make something that serves a similar function but I can't guarentee it does what yours does because you refuse to share it. Whatever I do I'm sure you'll find a way to say is inferior. If you'd really like your server back please send me over source/implementation of yours and I will rewrite it. It doesn't have to be functional, just show the logic and workflow.
[18:17:13] <notkolie> Take our your personal library and code or whatever excuse you had for not sharing it prior.
[18:17:35] <notkolie> I'm not telling anyone else what to write.
[18:17:45] <notkolie> I am giving reasons for and suggesting a very viable strong solution.
[18:18:10] <notkolie> The committee can vote and decide to do whatevet it wants - thats not me telling the committee.
[18:18:28] <notkolie> IF the committee wants to pursure something - ok let's collectively decide that.
[18:19:02] <notkolie> I haven't been telling anyone anything other than showing up and discssing the items.
[18:19:47] <cosurgi> let's use audioguy's voting solution! :-) And eventually worry later if it doesn't work.
[18:20:13] <janrinok> You know how the script works - you have had the logic. I passed everything to you. But you have direct access to the database so much of what is written is irrelevant to you. You are not constrained by the API.
[18:20:15] <notkolie> I'm curious about how it functions or if it works for the purposes we need. Not saying it doesn't but just want to know more about it.
[18:20:22] <notkolie> No you didnt.
[18:20:38] <notkolie> You wrote an email in english describing some stuff you did.
[18:20:44] <notkolie> It wasnt the workflow/logic/code.
[18:21:04] <notkolie> You could share it and I could reimplement it quickly and cleanly in a different language.
[18:21:10] <notkolie> You don't want to that's fine.
[18:21:17] <notkolie> Stop pushing it then I don't want your problems.
[18:21:45] <notkolie> You are creating them and being flippant about them. Just stop the games.
[18:23:11] <notkolie> I've moved beyond that topic for those reasons. If you really want to help and be productive then I've set the boundary on how to make that happen.
[18:24:20] <cosurgi> is it on github / gitlab ?
[18:24:22] <janrinok> Oh well, if you have set the boundary it must be my fault again. Start contributing and stop talking about others contributing. I have been active on the site for over 4 hours already today.
[18:24:33] <notkolie> No its not. He's never disclosed the solution other than a verbal description in email.
[18:25:44] <notkolie> janrinok - I'm not the one who brought it up. You are a hypocrite and just trying to provoke a response.
[18:25:53] <janrinok> OK
[18:26:01] <notkolie> I'm happy you volunteered to edit and be so dedicated to your task.
[18:26:40] <notkolie> And you take it upon yourself to moderate the entire site.
[18:27:16] <notkolie> And I'd be happy to automate those tasks for you on an SN hosted solution which carries out some of the things you've taken upon yourself.
[18:27:37] <notkolie> And since you can't share exactly what that is you've made it difficult to fulfill that offer in a meaningful way.
[18:28:53] <notkolie> I can certainly offer a new solution but as it differs from yours I feel that you'd just dismiss it and say I'm missing the point and don't understand how things are actually done here - like you've done so many times before and been quick to point out - but fail to move forward and beyond and work with me or perhaps other new commers in an actual productive manner.
[18:29:45] <notkolie> I can certainly "give you your server back". You can just as easily and quickly share with me the details of that work which you need taken over.
[18:30:41] <notkolie> I also volunteered to edit and spend my time doing so.
[18:30:59] <notkolie> My request for editor training to do things the right and correct way was met with "We are busy writing bylaws"
[18:31:09] <notkolie> You also say that this is a waste of everyones time and nothing has happened.
[18:31:28] <cosurgi> How about, insteaad of chit-chat, we use this voting solution to see if it works?
[18:31:32] <notkolie> So your busy but nothing has happened - my offer to help was not taken - and now I'm apparently "not contributing".
[18:31:50] <notkolie> I want nothing more than the success of this site and its community - stop fighting me.
[18:32:03] <notkolie> cosurgi, love to see it.
[18:32:30] <janrinok> OK. I was given the role on 1 January of this year by NCommander. I was told to write my own TORs. I have sent you a description of how the software operates.
[18:33:03] <notkolie> Your description isn't what I requested - read my above responses to the verbal description of the software you sent.
[18:33:33] <notkolie> You might as well tell me how a combustion engine works in an email and then expect a schematic matching your garage implementation.
[18:35:20] <janrinok> I have spent 4 hours of my day today on this site. Tomorrow I will probably do about the same and then have to attend a Governance Committee meeting when I would normally be asleep.
[18:35:25] <janrinok> See you all tomorrow
[18:44:24] <notkolie> I pinged AG
[19:22:16] <cosurgi> who is AG?
[19:22:32] <cosurgi> I am feeling that janrinok is getting burnt out :(
[19:28:01] <notkolie> audioguy.
[19:30:06] <notkolie> Yea I understand being burnt out for sure he does a ton.
[19:30:31] <notkolie> And the reason for us all being here is less than useful right it's details.
[19:30:38] <notkolie> But as we learnt the details behind hte scenes matter.
[19:31:14] <notkolie> And the staff just want to be properly represented and not be fucked around for arbitrary reasons.
[19:32:21] <notkolie> At the same time - and this isnt the case now but has to be represented - is that the staff are also not given free reign of their own accord - it's fine when it works and when it doesnt, just like the board, there needs to be a governing element. We all seem to indicate that the community is that.
[19:32:46] <notkolie> So while the community doesn't contribute or do or understand on a day to day board/staff level - it does know if its not being represented.
[19:33:25] <notkolie> Which makes perfect sense and is a really solid way to think about it.
[19:34:01] <notkolie> I haven't seen anyone suggest that the community is malicious and if it is there is a larger problem right.
[19:35:01] <notkolie> So giving them everything, and they chose a council/board/warm bodies/call it whatever to represent the organization, and that council board bodies approve the operating/staff policy - seems like all the checks and balances are in play to atleast move us out of the shit pile we inherited today.
[19:35:38] <notkolie> board fucks up and yanks staff around, board gets yanked, staff are acting outside of community interest, board handles it
[19:35:54] <notkolie> everyones accountable outside of themselves.
[19:36:26] <notkolie> everyones in sync - and if they arent - the organization is structured to fix the out of sync parts.
[19:36:49] <notkolie> And ultimately thats sync is the communities wishes.
[19:37:26] <notkolie> "Community" the term which needs to be defined and codified in the bylaws.
[19:38:21] <notkolie> That term as codified, is the ones wishes that will get represented so its definition is key and important as it sets the power at the highest level.