#editorial | Logs for 2021-11-14
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[00:23:45] <Bytram> updating Beg-o-Meter
[00:24:37] <Bytram> mysql> SELECT SUM(payment_net) AS Net, 100.0 * SUM(payment_net) / 3500.00 AS GoalPercent, MAX(ts), MAX(spid), NOW() FROM subscribe_payments WHERE spid >= 1618 ;
[00:24:37] <Bytram> +---------+-------------+---------------------+-----------+---------------------+
[00:24:37] <Bytram> | Net | GoalPercent | MAX(ts) | MAX(spid) | NOW() |
[00:24:37] <Bytram> +---------+-------------+---------------------+-----------+---------------------+
[00:24:37] <Bytram> | 1175.54 | 33.5868571 | 2021-11-12 03:08:14 | 1668 | 2021-11-14 00:24:21 |
[00:24:39] <Bytram> +---------+-------------+---------------------+-----------+---------------------+
[00:24:41] <Bytram> 1 row in set (0.00 sec)
[00:24:43] <Bytram> mysql>
[00:27:57] <Bytram> update completed!
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[06:33:52] <AzumaHazuki> what now, Ari?
[06:35:07] <Runaway19XX> Who?
[06:35:33] <AzumaHazuki> you
[06:36:11] <Runaway19XX> Control says I am banned. I am not even here.
[06:36:35] <Runaway19XX> Evidently, that does not work.
[06:38:46] <Runaway19XX> Looking for sashimono, at the moment.
[06:40:14] <Runaway19XX> Missing c0lo's contributions on joinery.
[06:45:41] <Runaway19XX> So, how's work, Hazuki?
[06:46:00] <AzumaHazuki> busier than a caffeinated armadillo on a six-lane freeway at 5:15 PM
[06:46:52] <Runaway19XX> Hmm, better than the alternatives, I guess.
[06:47:40] <AzumaHazuki> have been making some serious overtime
[06:48:46] <Runaway19XX> Gotta ask, am I ghosted on the Soylentil channel?
[06:49:22] <AzumaHazuki> no idea. i think most people just ignore you
[06:50:00] <Runaway19XX> Oh, Ah, the usual question. Who do you think I am?
[06:51:55] <AzumaHazuki> Aristarchus, obviously
[06:54:04] <Runaway19XX> So many assume so much. Are there really only less than a dozen solylentils? Runaway, khallow, yourself, DannyB and MartyB, and UnknownB, and aristarchus. A sad assumption.
[06:56:32] <Runaway19XX> Am trying to advice a young person on a careet path. Want to ask if the moral satifaction of helping people in need overcomes the other crap you need to put up with. You seem to have a lot of experience with this.
[07:00:07] <AzumaHazuki> it's...hard to say. you have to really be that kind of person for it to be even workable let alone sustainable
[07:00:54] <Runaway19XX> More on "kind of person"?
[07:01:09] <AzumaHazuki> think "Neutral Good" alignment
[07:01:40] <Runaway19XX> Where does that come from, again?
[07:02:33] <AzumaHazuki> in my case? a combination of c-PTSD and just wanting to flip the digitus impudicus to the Mammon-worshipers
[07:02:55] <AzumaHazuki> i've seen too many friends suffer for no reason other than lack of money. some have died. i've saved some. i've lost others.
[07:04:32] <Runaway19XX> No, the "Neutral Good" and all the other alingements? Understand your case, from what you have shared.
[07:04:52] <AzumaHazuki> comes from D&D and similar. which i have never played, ironically
[07:05:13] <AzumaHazuki> ...though my girlfriend made me in Baldur's Gate 2 once? As a "Kensai" I think, who had all her points in speed and attack
[07:05:36] <Runaway19XX> Oh! Just had a student that had dodecahedrenal dice!
[07:07:20] <Runaway19XX> Was thinking more about the basis for altruism, why some people work to serve others, rather than self-interest.
[07:08:35] <AzumaHazuki> all interest is self-interest
[07:08:59] <Runaway19XX> Hmm, explain, please.
[07:09:16] <AzumaHazuki> there is no such thing as actual altruism; there's only enlightened self-interest. all morality comes down to a form of consequentialism in which the summum bonum is "satisfaction of the moral agent"
[07:09:28] <AzumaHazuki> religious types REALLY do not like this being pointed out to them
[07:10:46] <Runaway19XX> Freud's attempt to put the ego in someone else, so that what looked like altruism was actually just displaced egoism? I am not convinced.
[07:13:02] <AzumaHazuki> i had no idea freud said this
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[07:13:14] <AzumaHazuki> it's from my own observations of mine and others' thought processes
[07:16:29] <Runaway19XX> Well, he was big on egoism, with only the addition of the Id, the irrational and suppressed parts of the psyche. But it is the base assumption of all egoists, especially republicans. Question is, where do the Utilitarians get thier allegience to the greater good?
[07:16:54] <AzumaHazuki> oh, it's not utilitarianism per se
[07:17:23] <AzumaHazuki> and you can easily show how the three main schools of morality (virtue ethics, consequentialism, deontology) are forms of one another
[07:18:35] <Runaway19XX> Well, any ethical system that alleges some greater value than self-interest. I would disagree that these three systems can be so reduced!
[07:20:52] <AzumaHazuki> okay, let's take deontology: WHY does one do what is the right thing, simpliciter, to do?
[07:21:05] <AzumaHazuki> the answer always comes in terms of virtue ethics or consequentialism
[07:22:58] <Runaway19XX> Not really. But this requires a deep dive into Kant. The basis of all moral value, for Kant, is something that is and end-in-itself. Not what is good-for-someone. And that is a person, a rational being.
[07:23:52] <AzumaHazuki> okay, but why is this so?
[07:24:34] <Runaway19XX> This is why treating someone for a disease, even when they are terminal, is the right thing to do, because it treats them as an end in themselves, not as a mean to our ends, like unilitiarianism would do.
[07:25:30] <Runaway19XX> So, my question about people like yourself in the healthcare field. Why?
[07:25:57] <AzumaHazuki> why is it the right thing to do to treat someone as an end in themselves?
[07:27:36] <Runaway19XX> Kant says, otherwise, we treat them as a thing. This could get us into animal rights, where we can eat, or experiment, or whatever, on animals because they are not ends in themselves? Problems.
[07:28:01] <AzumaHazuki> why is Kant correct and how do/can we know?
[07:28:34] <Runaway19XX> Philosophy is never an appeal to authority. What do you think?
[07:28:57] <AzumaHazuki> i think you're a little out of your depth
[07:29:44] <Runaway19XX> Or, you have finally outed me. Look for a journal on the mis-understanding of Kant by Republicans, soon.
[07:30:46] <AzumaHazuki> the GOP has no morals. being immoral would be a step up. it's amoral. it's a pack of sharks whose only mindless driving instinct is to turn everything into shark shit
[07:32:35] <Runaway19XX> Just think, any individual is unique, irreplaceable, and so a value in and of themself. This is why "GI" in the military is such an insult. "Government Issue", which means replaceable. But that is not true.
[07:33:03] <AzumaHazuki> how does uniqueness confer value and in whose eyes?
[07:34:19] <Runaway19XX> That is the point. Yours, but if you want it, you have to grant the same status to all others. And you should know, that in human relations, it is the uniqueness of the person that makes the connection.
[07:35:20] <AzumaHazuki> okay but what does this have to do with what is moral or good?
[07:35:42] <Runaway19XX> And, just an observation, chatting with you rather than Runaway is really much more pleasant!
[07:38:05] <AzumaHazuki> various forms of bodily illness are more pleasant than chatting with Runaway. He's gone insane. He burned his human card to ashes to own the libs
[07:38:31] <AzumaHazuki> nothing's left for him but long, slow decay, then $TIME_PERIOD in Hell stewing in his own juices
[07:38:32] <Runaway19XX> Crap, you are going to make me pullout some actual Kant. He has a Categorical Imperative, in other words a rule you should follow no matter what. And it is: "Always treat, whether in yourself or another, and end in itself aways as such, and never as a mean to your ends. Don't use people, basically.
[07:39:16] <AzumaHazuki> i am lightly familiar with Kant yes, and with the categorical imperative. where is the obligation? that is, WHY should one follow this imperative?
[07:39:31] <Runaway19XX> Nice thing about having family, even if you are a sociopathic asshole, they will look out for you and get you vaxxed!
[07:41:19] <Runaway19XX> Yes, Normative obligation. Why? Well, if you do not grant human rights and respect to every other rational being, you cannot bitch if anyone treats you like a thing. Slavery?
[07:41:55] <AzumaHazuki> thaaaaaaaaaaaat's consequentialism :D
[07:42:05] <AzumaHazuki> "i do this because it would suck if i didn't"
[07:43:49] <Runaway19XX> Many, including JS Mill, interpreted it like that. But Kant was doing, um, transcendental critique? The necessary preconditions for the possibility of any morality? So, not a matter of outcomes or consequences.
[07:45:03] <AzumaHazuki> that's the solution to the ought from is problem :) but it also shows that morality is emergent, not a Platonic feature of reality as the deontologists have it
[07:45:17] <AzumaHazuki> categorically, then, this eliminated deontology. the very idea is incoherent
[07:48:10] <Runaway19XX> And, I am quite sure now that the Admins have shadow-banned me from the #Solentil channel! Which is treating me as if I was just a thing, an annoyance to be removed, a disutililty of SoylentNews, instead of a full and rational contributer to the same. Get why Deontology makes sense, now?
[07:49:06] <Runaway19XX> More a matter of logical consistency, than optimal outcomes.
[07:49:38] <Runaway19XX> And hence my orignal question about working in the health services.
[07:51:03] <AzumaHazuki> there's no way to put this into words. my driving mission is just to make this world better in some small way, partly out of spite
[07:52:16] <Runaway19XX> Words recieved. And you are lucky this is not aristarchus in actuality. He probably would have charged for the philosophy lesson! Treating others as means! Mercenary philosophers!
[07:53:05] <Runaway19XX> Take care, Hazuki-kun!
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[08:02:13] <chromas> looks like they're off to go bang
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