#editorial | Logs for 2017-01-19

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[01:17:50] <Fnord666> Bytram - howdy!
[01:34:14] <Fnord666> Good to see you back. How are you doing?
[01:54:14] <Bytram> hiya
[01:54:26] <Bytram> Fnord666: sorry was away from the kbd
[01:54:38] <Fnord666> no problem
[01:54:43] <Bytram> arm is doing much better!!! ...
[01:54:49] <Fnord666> gave me time to post up some stories
[01:55:00] <Fnord666> that's great to ehar.
[01:55:07] <Fnord666> s/ehar/hear/
[01:55:08] <exec> <Fnord666> that's great to hear.
[01:55:16] <Bytram> but now I've got a nasty 'knot' in my right hip (prolly my gluteous maximus sp?)
[01:55:48] <Bytram> and it's pulling all the muscles down the right outside of my right leg taut
[01:55:57] <Bytram> can't walk normally. :(
[01:56:01] <Fnord666> so yo uwalk in circles?
[01:56:11] <Bytram> otoh, I have the next two days off... yay!
[01:56:20] <Fnord666> well there you go.
[01:56:21] <Bytram> pretty much, yep!
[01:56:40] <Bytram> https://phys.org
[01:56:41] <exec> └─ 13404 Error - The Page Cannot be Found
[01:56:45] <Bytram> LOL!
[01:57:00] * Bytram is looking at that page right now
[01:57:12] <Fnord666> arthur was giving no end of trouble yesterday
[01:57:19] <Bytram> how so?
[01:57:22] <Fnord666> all the bots around here are slacking off.
[01:57:37] <Fnord666> kept taking errors trying to submit stories.
[01:58:02] <Fnord666> sometimes took two or three tries to get a story submitted.
[01:58:03] <Bytram> nod nod
[01:58:10] <Bytram> sounds like quite the BOTher
[01:58:10] <Fnord666> othet times it worked first try.
[01:58:26] <Fnord666> I see you haven't injured your punny bone.
[01:58:32] <Bytram> other than that, how are YOU doing?
[01:59:12] <Fnord666> I am doing well. Thanks for asking. The new year is upon us and development is in full swing at work
[01:59:20] <Bytram> https://phys.org
[01:59:22] <exec> └─ 13404 Error - The Page Cannot be Found
[01:59:29] <Bytram> #smake exec
[01:59:29] * MrPlow smakes exec upside the head with a jar of Ray's cysts
[01:59:40] <Bytram> Fnord666: you do software?
[01:59:45] <Fnord666> I do
[02:00:17] <Bytram> if you don't mind my asking, what platform, language, and what do you work on?
[02:00:30] <Fnord666> oh lordy.
[02:00:54] <Bytram> Wow, that's a whole paragraph or three in just two words!
[02:01:19] <Fnord666> the system is real time credit card transaction processing, the platform is IBM mainframe Z systems, and the language is ...
[02:01:25] <Fnord666> Assembler!
[02:01:52] <Fnord666> The application runs 7-8 million lines or so at last guess
[02:01:57] <Bytram> http://www.innovations-report.com
[02:01:58] <exec> └─ 13Technology Offerings
[02:02:09] <Bytram> heh... do you keep your PoP at the ready?
[02:02:19] <Bytram> Principles of Operations
[02:02:37] <Fnord666> of course as well as the reference cards
[02:02:57] <Fnord666> Heard of CICS?
[02:03:01] * Bytram did funciton testing of IBM's VM/SP OS back in the early 80s... much fun single-stepping a mainframe to isolate a bug
[02:03:08] <Bytram> yep
[02:03:15] <Bytram> heard of it, but not used it
[02:03:47] <Fnord666> our app basically an in house written version of CICS, customized for our environment.
[02:04:01] <Bytram> yowza!
[02:04:05] <Fnord666> Originally built in the 70s and added onto from there.
[02:04:18] <Fnord666> that about sums it up, yes.
[02:04:20] <Bytram> oh. my. words -- fail
[02:04:41] <Bytram> are you an MVS or VM shop?
[02:05:01] <Fnord666> I work on the coding on the guts of it, so the layers that handle memory management, disk management, threading, etc.
[02:05:04] <Fnord666> We are MVS
[02:05:12] <Bytram> ahhh, k
[02:06:13] <Fnord666> The system was originally built for a bank to handle their teller terminals and the first ATMs in the field
[02:06:43] * Bytram bets there was a primordial instance of a statement to store regs and branch that has been cloned a gazillion times (opname 10,12)
[02:06:43] <Fnord666> it just expanded from there.
[02:06:51] <Bytram> grew-some!
[02:07:00] <Fnord666> lol. very much so
[02:07:32] <Fnord666> code from 1987 that has a comment that it's just temporary and they'll come back later to do a better fix.
[02:07:38] <Bytram> brain hurts trying to remember from oh-so-long-ago
[02:08:25] * Bytram tested he free storage manager, real storage allocator, scheduler, and dispatcher among other things
[02:08:37] <Fnord666> Cool.
[02:08:38] <Bytram> s/ he/ the/
[02:08:39] <exec> <Bytram> tested the free storage manager, real storage allocator, scheduler, and dispatcher among other things
[02:08:57] <Fnord666> So much of the same sorts of fun.
[02:09:12] <Bytram> was when they introduced a hierarchy of 'storage pools' to swap to, swap to the faster stuff, first
[02:09:33] <Bytram> much the same, I'm sure
[02:09:41] <Bytram> do you stil have to mess with JCL?
[02:10:05] <Fnord666> for anything outside of the realtime system, yes.
[02:10:09] <Bytram> only 14 commands, but seventy-gazillion combinations of parameters
[02:10:15] <Fnord666> the real time system is a started task that runs 24/7
[02:11:08] <Fnord666> I do get to do a lot of other stuff. I came into the shop in 1993 with a broad background in languages and systems.
[02:11:22] <Fnord666> as a result I got to do a lot of one -off projects also.
[02:11:25] <Bytram> while 1 (if work slot avail then find and submit next task)
[02:11:36] <Fnord666> always something new.
[02:11:42] <Bytram> new++
[02:11:42] <Bender> karma - new: 1
[02:12:08] <Bytram> oh my... are you still restricted to using only certain columns within 80 chars?
[02:12:13] <Fnord666> I also had a background in cryptography so I ended up working with our cryptographic hardware used to encrypt transactions.
[02:12:24] <Bytram> Fnord666++ kewel!!
[02:12:24] <Bender> karma - fnord666: 5
[02:12:27] <Fnord666> oh yes.
[02:12:53] <Fnord666> now which column does the 'X' go into to extend a line to the next row?
[02:13:24] <Bytram> we may have a small team, but I've never failed to be impressed when I find out what backgrounds the staff comes from
[02:13:31] <Bytram> IIRC, 72
[02:13:39] <Bytram> or was that FORTRAN?
[02:13:40] <Fnord666> our change management system still automatically puts sequential numbers in columns 73-80.
[02:13:46] <Bytram> LOL!!!!!!!!!
[02:13:49] <Fnord666> column 72 it is.
[02:13:55] <Fnord666> Bytram++
[02:13:55] <Bender> karma - bytram: 44
[02:14:06] <Bytram> that was from 35 years ago! =)
[02:14:14] <Fnord666> the real fun is explaining what it means to the interns!
[02:14:20] <Bytram> some things you just DON'T forget!
[02:14:37] <Fnord666> You only had to drop a card deck once....
[02:14:41] <Bytram> I can well imagine!
[02:14:46] <Bytram> here's one for ya..
[02:15:02] <Bytram> friend of mine decided to 'upgrade' her internet service
[02:15:15] <Bytram> was cheaper for her to get the phone, net, and TV bundle
[02:15:24] <Bytram> so, they have a brand new land line
[02:15:33] <Bytram> her son wants to make a call
[02:15:43] <Fnord666> ohno
[02:15:48] <Bytram> she tells him to use the new phone as she was using her cell phone
[02:15:55] <Bytram> he picks up the phone and yells
[02:16:00] <Bytram> "Mom! What's that noise?"
[02:16:11] <Bytram> first time he'd ever heard a dial tone!
[02:16:30] <Fnord666> oh wow
[02:16:35] <Bytram> (kid was about 7 or so)
[02:16:51] <Bytram> where's the 'send' button?
[02:16:54] <Bytram> =)
[02:17:13] <Bytram> and, sadly, so many young folk struggle to read an analog clock, too
[02:17:16] <Fnord666> how to i delete a mistyped digit?
[02:17:28] <Bytram> they buy a watch for the look but can't tell time with it.
[02:17:31] <Fnord666> and I have a problem with that
[02:18:02] <Fnord666> it's not just digits, there's a sense of proportion that goes with it.
[02:18:13] <Bytram> well... I started programming on a PDP/8 with an ASR-35 Teletype, then moved up to a VT52 to a PDP 11/70 in high school
[02:18:23] <Fnord666> plus an appreciation for mechanical craftsmanship if it's a mechanical watch
[02:18:44] <Bytram> got to college and had to submit programming assignments to a batrh processor, using punch cards -- no delete key!
[02:18:44] <Fnord666> did the high school have the pdp?
[02:18:54] <Bytram> *batch processor
[02:19:06] <Bytram> yes! VERY forward thinking school
[02:19:27] <Bytram> my teletype access started in '72 IIRC
[02:19:44] <Bytram> got the 11/70 around '76 or so
[02:19:52] <Fnord666> ok. The first computer I used was a PDP 11/70 in our high school, but it was owned by the university. We had a single account they let us us.
[02:20:06] <Bytram> nod nod
[02:20:10] <Bytram> RSTS/E ??
[02:20:14] <Bytram> brb
[02:20:14] <Fnord666> we had a decwriter and a 300 baud acoustic modem
[02:20:28] <Fnord666> k
[02:21:49] <Fnord666> Now there's a flashback
[02:21:55] <Bytram> the wide one with the green bar, tractor fed paper?
[02:22:26] <Fnord666> yep
[02:22:38] <Bytram> we had those, too, but I preferred the VT52s -- MUCH faster!
[02:22:52] <Bytram> defaulted to 1200 baud, but I quickly found out how to set it to 9600
[02:23:14] <Bytram> ahhh, RSTS/E an OS written in BASIC!
[02:23:17] <Fnord666> I also got to trek up to the campus with two dec tapes every spring to back up everything, then go back and reload it in the fall when they gave us a new account.
[02:23:37] <Bytram> DEC Tapes! virtually indestructible!!!
[02:23:55] <Fnord666> And so much more compact than mag tapes
[02:24:05] <Bytram> much lighter, too
[02:24:17] * Bytram remembers working at DEC on a coop assignment
[02:24:53] <Bytram> saw this 5-foot nothing pixie of a computer operator carrying 5 mag tapes, on each arm. Never gave her any lip after seeing that!
[02:25:16] <Fnord666> Nice
[02:25:33] <Bytram> got to play with some of the 'big iron' then
[02:25:46] <Bytram> KL10 and KL20 (running TOPS10 and TOPS20)
[02:25:47] <Fnord666> Our vocational school had a career path for punch card operators
[02:25:55] <Bytram> as well as a VAX or two
[02:26:03] <Bytram> TECO++
[02:26:03] <Bender> karma - teco: 1
[02:26:46] <Fnord666> At university we wrote our assembler programs on a VAX system and submitted them via RJE to the mainframe that actually belonged to the medical school.
[02:27:15] <Bytram> when I worked at computervision, they had a library of postprocessors, tailored with 'drivers' for different machines (eg CNC mill from Fanuc, or GE, or...)
[02:27:24] <Bytram> VAX++
[02:27:24] <Bender> karma - vax: 1
[02:27:28] <Fnord666> And yes, I did get to use teco for editing.
[02:27:38] <Bytram> had the most awesome assembler I have ever seen
[02:27:53] <Bytram> they had a problem with impact analysis
[02:28:09] <Bytram> had a whole slew of FORTRAN library sybroutines
[02:28:13] <Bytram> subroutines
[02:28:25] <Bytram> fix a bug, but what would it break?
[02:28:44] <Bytram> i wrote some TECO macros that cross referenced their entire library
[02:28:54] <Fnord666> several routines that depended on the buggy behavior probably.
[02:29:24] <Bytram> well, they might, or might not, bu they wouldn't know until it got to the field... until I came along =)
[02:29:50] <Bytram> oh, adn the whole computer had 64 KB of memory
[02:30:14] <Fnord666> Taht was a lot back then.
[02:30:35] <Bytram> nod no
[02:30:37] <Bytram> nod nod
[02:30:45] <Fnord666> on my desk I have a chunk of honest to goodness "core memory"
[02:31:07] <Fnord666> tiny wire lattice with iron rings at each intersection.
[02:31:08] <Bytram> when I got to IBM they had only recently implemented EC mode so you could access more than 16MB of memory
[02:31:29] <Bytram> Fnord666: I watched core memory boards being constructed at DEC...
[02:32:02] <Fnord666> I bet that was interesting.
[02:32:10] <Bytram> they went out to local churches, found members of their sewing clubs, and gave 'em jobs "sewing" the cores together!!
[02:32:27] <Fnord666> bespoke memory!
[02:32:37] <Bytram> a room full of little old ladies talking up a storm and getting paid good money to do what they were really good at. win win!
[02:33:08] <Fnord666> You know how to get a room full of old ladies to swear?
[02:33:20] <Bytram> ummm, no?
[02:33:31] <Fnord666> Get one of them to yell "Bingo!"
[02:33:39] <Bytram> LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
[02:34:06] <Bytram> gotta remember that one!
[02:35:46] <Fnord666> You ever look at the specs on the Apollo guidance computers?
[02:36:11] <Fnord666> I can't believe they made it back.
[02:36:22] <Bytram> has been a long time, but ISTR that they were VERY limited
[02:37:03] <Bytram> one could easily find a calculator that has more compute power than those had
[02:37:41] <Fnord666> yup.
[02:38:10] <Fnord666> Some of the guidance and nav systems they had were ingenious and some of it was analog computing
[02:38:11] <Bytram> tangetially related but "Space" by michner was a fun read
[02:38:51] <Bytram> analog is fine; they did some amazing things with 'em on ships for controlling the firing of cannons
[02:39:41] <Bytram> lessee, the ship is rolling, yaw, etc. and changing elevation as it climbs/descends swells, and we're trying to hit a target 15 miles away... no problem!
[02:39:57] * Bytram is amazed
[02:40:37] <Fnord666> oh I know. This may sound odd but I was watching some Navy training films from the 60s I think that explained a bunch of the analog calculation in the fire control systems for the deck guns.
[02:40:40] <Fnord666> Amazing
[02:40:54] <Bytram> understatement++
[02:40:54] <Bender> karma - understatement: 2
[02:41:11] <Fnord666> Don't forget the target is moving and turning and accelerating and so are you
[02:41:24] <Fnord666> for ship to ship engagements anyway
[02:41:39] <Bytram> I had noticed the story queue was running low andpushed out a few stories, just looked and saw you are doing same...
[02:41:42] <Bytram> Fnord666++
[02:41:42] <Bender> karma - fnord666: 6
[02:42:13] <Bytram> ahhh, right! I was thinking of land bombardment, not ship-to-ship
[02:42:43] <Fnord666> yeah I saw it was low earlier so I at least wanted to get stories into tomorrow afternoon
[02:42:43] <Bytram> 2nding Android
[02:42:51] <Fnord666> k
[02:42:53] <Bytram> fixing title-caps
[02:42:55] <charon> hiyo fnord666 and bytram
[02:43:00] <Bytram> charon: !!
[02:43:07] <Fnord666> Howdy charon!
[02:43:15] <Fnord666> damn. thanks.
[02:43:26] <Bytram> oh, I see android story is NO display... nvm
[02:43:43] <Bytram> 2nding sha-1
[02:43:50] <Bytram> charon: howz thingz?
[02:44:42] <Fnord666> 2nding the plastic bags
[02:45:23] <charon> things are ok. kinda ticked at myself. i got talked into helping a customer assemble something and it turned into a job from hell
[02:46:27] <Bytram> ugh. been there -- no fun at all
[02:46:55] <Fnord666> 2nding the hair shirt
[02:47:20] <Fnord666> nice dept btw
[02:47:27] <Bytram> 2nding critical flaws
[02:47:34] <Bytram> title case
[02:47:54] <charon> man, you guys are editing machines. i guess i can go to sleep
[02:48:44] <Fnord666> wow i'm sucking at catching that tonight.
[02:48:54] <Fnord666> Phoenix666 ahs me spoiled I guess
[02:49:06] <Fnord666> s/ahs/has/
[02:49:07] <exec> <Fnord666> Phoenix666 has me spoiled I guess
[02:49:28] <Bytram> P666 *is* good that way...
[02:49:48] <Bytram> just watchout that links to ScienceDaily can generally be replaced with a link to the actual source...
[02:50:01] <Bytram> also, italics and bold and some links occasionally fail to make it through
[02:50:04] <Fnord666> charon seemed like you could use a break.
[02:50:33] <Fnord666> yep, learned that about ScienceDaily articles.
[02:51:14] <Fnord666> Also the extra referential gobblygook at the end of arthur's stories captured from RSS
[02:51:20] <Bytram> charon: congrats on joining the 200 stories published club!!
[02:51:22] <charon> i'm not complaining. i really am not. but it seems there are some nights when there's nothing queued and i end up filling almost a whole day
[02:51:24] <Bytram> charon++
[02:51:24] <Bender> karma - charon: 11
[02:51:38] <Fnord666> at the end of the story URLs I mean.
[02:51:40] * Bytram is on the mend and has the next two days off
[02:51:50] <charon> just weird the way the flow is high sometimes and low other times
[02:51:59] <Bytram> ebb and flow
[02:52:10] <charon> ~blame
[02:52:11] * exec points at Bytram
[02:52:20] * Bytram yawns
[02:52:20] * MrPlow flips a Skittle into Bytram's gaping mouth
[02:52:37] <Bytram> let's try this again:
[02:52:39] <Bytram> https://phys.org
[02:52:40] <exec> └─ 13A universe of 2 trillion galaxies
[02:52:45] <Bytram> ho!
[02:52:48] <Bytram> ~submit https://phys.org
[02:52:51] <exec> └─ 13A universe of 2 trillion galaxies
[02:53:17] * Bytram taps exec on the shoulder
[02:53:21] <exec> submission successful - https://soylentnews.org
[02:53:28] <Bytram> nice exec!
[02:53:35] <Bytram> ~submit https://phys.org
[02:53:38] <exec> └─ 13404 Error - The Page Cannot be Found
[02:53:42] <Fnord666> ~treat exec
[02:53:54] <charon> why ~submit instead of ~arthur?
[02:53:55] <Bytram> #smake exec
[02:53:55] * MrPlow smakes exec upside the head with a sac of walnuts
[02:54:00] <Fnord666> apparently I can't give exec a treat
[02:54:08] <exec> error: something went wrong with your submission
[02:54:13] <Bytram> doh.
[02:54:17] <Fnord666> submit for URLs
[02:54:19] <charon> haw haw
[02:54:32] <charon> or yeah. arthur needs a hash. durrr
[02:54:44] <Fnord666> arthur for submissions in his DB
[02:54:45] <Bytram> because arthur only can sub stories from his pre-digested list, and I was just looking at a random story I'd found
[02:54:57] <Fnord666> yeah, what Bytram said
[02:55:05] <charon> i hereby admit my dumbth
[02:55:52] <Bytram> it's nothing -- I still occasionally blow it when editing / subbing a story
[02:55:52] <Fnord666> It's late. Have a beer.
[02:56:07] <Bytram> my favorite mistake is to forget to submit a URL on a submission
[02:56:41] <Fnord666> Nice story there Bytram. Where the heck did you get it?
[02:56:56] * Bytram is a bit of an Astronomy buff
[02:57:08] * Bytram is easily amazed by the vastness of space
[02:57:17] <Bytram> http://arstechnica.com
[02:57:19] <exec> └─ 13Assange weasels out of pledge to surrender if Manning received clemency | Ars Technica
[02:57:41] <charon> nooo, our julian?
[02:57:47] <Fnord666> “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.” - Einstein
[02:58:21] <Fnord666> If he goes out to dinner with someone is it a julian date?
[02:59:02] <charon> if he doesble dates with his pal gregory, does anyone know when to meet at the restaurant?
[02:59:38] <charon> that word is double
[02:59:38] <Bytram> when they get hungry?
[02:59:39] <Fnord666> And will there be chanting involved?
[02:59:54] <Fnord666> Probably on a day ending in 'y'
[02:59:57] <Bytram> 2nding salt mine
[03:00:29] <Fnord666> charon so what were you building for a customer?
[03:01:04] <charon> a wooden rocker that you put a baby in
[03:01:19] <Fnord666> brb
[03:01:40] <charon> but the customer bought it secondhand. it had none of the screws. she told me that, si was expecting it
[03:02:09] <charon> but when she brought it it, it was also missing two wooden pieces
[03:02:31] <charon> and i did not discover that until after she left
[03:02:57] <Bytram> roh oh.
[03:03:12] <charon> i had to grab a piece of lumber, cut it into the right shape, drill a bunch of holes, get hardware of different sizes
[03:03:26] <Bytram> urgh.
[03:03:42] <Bytram> turn it on a lathe, too, I suspect
[03:03:58] <charon> and while i was drilling a hole, one of the new pieces splintered, so i have to glue it and hope it's still strong enough
[03:04:10] <Bytram> 2nding backseat driver
[03:04:10] <charon> if it needed a lathe, she's be out of luck
[03:04:21] * Bytram chuckles
[03:04:33] <Bytram> sounds like you were being a really good egg to help her out.
[03:04:37] <Bytram> charon++
[03:04:37] <Bender> karma - charon: 12
[03:04:50] <charon> but she did bring oranges
[03:05:21] <Fnord666> back
[03:05:27] <charon> wb
[03:06:16] <Fnord666> citrus is always nice.
[03:06:40] <Bytram> sad that in TWO of the stories I 2nded, the original sources had grammatical errors where they had a word lout.
[03:07:25] <Bytram> 2nding completed
[03:07:36] <Fnord666> Should we mark those with a [sic]?
[03:07:37] * Bytram is gonna call it a night...
[03:07:39] * charon is a word lout
[03:07:50] <Fnord666> ~gnight Bytram
[03:07:52] * exec seductively spews an .msi package of reverb on Bytram
[03:08:00] <charon> ~gnight bytram
[03:08:01] * exec unnecessarily twerks a cube of vespian gas for bytram
[03:08:03] <Bytram> getting back to work while still recuperating has been draining... need my beauty sleep, doncha know?
[03:08:07] <Bytram> ~gnight Fnord666
[03:08:11] * exec emphatically culturally enriches a handful of 💩 with Fnord666
[03:08:12] <Bytram> ~gnight charon
[03:08:18] * exec historically integrates a bucket of granola with charon
[03:08:19] * charon refrains from comment
[03:08:30] <Fnord666> sleep well.
[03:08:35] <Bytram> looks like charon wins
[03:08:46] <Bytram> will do, and the same to you both!
[03:08:49] <charon> yay, granola
[03:08:49] <Fnord666> glad you're feeling better and on the mend.
[03:08:55] <Bytram> mare sea
[03:08:57] <Bytram> hey...
[03:09:15] <Bytram> do you know what the difference is between california and a l of granola?
[03:09:23] <Bytram> s/ l / bowl /
[03:09:25] <exec> <Bytram> do you know what the difference is between california and a bowl of granola?
[03:09:37] <charon> no clue
[03:09:46] <Fnord666> one is ...
[03:09:46] <Bytram> once you get rid of the flakes, nuts, and fruits, there isn't much left
[03:09:55] <Bytram> ;)
[03:09:55] <charon> heheh
[03:10:08] <Fnord666> one is full of flakes, nuts and fruits, the other is a cereal?
[03:10:31] <Bytram> is not THAT bad, really, but I've visited parts where that did seem to be the case
[03:10:34] <Bytram> Fnord666: you got it!
[03:10:37] <Fnord666> good night Bytram
[03:10:42] <Fnord666> :)
[03:10:46] <Fnord666> talk to you tomorrow
[03:10:51] <Bytram> and on that [flat] note, gnight!
[03:11:10] <Bytram> truly a pleasure chatting with ya and comparing backgrounds
[03:11:15] <Bytram> laters!
[03:11:20] <charon> cheers
[03:11:26] <Fnord666> later
[03:20:10] <charon> man, i am salty today. i've probably commented more today than in the past month. and all fairly snarky
[03:30:42] <nick> charon++
[03:30:42] <Bender> karma - charon: 13
[03:31:01] <charon> lol, what was that for? snark?
[03:32:02] <nick> aye
[03:33:02] <charon> wotcher nick?
[03:34:26] <nick> say what
[03:34:53] <charon> how do you do this fine day?
[03:53:10] <nick> doin' alright, bit of a rough morning but all is well now
[03:54:09] <nick> how about your salt?
[03:55:59] <charon> might be getting better. i don't usually have a topic i feel like fighting a corner about.
[03:56:59] <charon> but for some reason those "wouldn't life be paradise if we could just live without government, like nature intended" yahoos drive me nuts
[03:57:41] <nick> ah it was that thread that got to you
[03:57:53] <nick> i can understand why
[03:58:12] <charon> i've posted about 5-6 times in that one sub-thread
[04:00:10] <Fnord666> which story?
[04:00:39] <charon> https://soylentnews.org
[04:00:43] <exec> └─ 13Give the Public the Tools to Trust Scientists - SoylentNews
[04:00:44] <nick> as you may have guessed, i'm no fan of government authority, a bit of a fuck the system mentality... but the ignorance displayed by the most vocal about that kind of outlook irritate me a lot
[04:00:57] <Fnord666> thx
[04:02:20] <charon> i think gov't is necessary, and usually not evil. though because of the human tendency to grab power/loot and not give it back, gov't does tend towards tyranny over the long haul
[04:03:24] <nick> it's part of a discussion we had before about the narratives offered in the current political landscape
[04:04:31] <charon> yep. funny, i don't discuss politics IRL
[04:05:12] <nick> neither do i, being someone who does affiliate with any political party or ideology it's pretty difficult when people try to force every issue into some kind of partisan framework
[04:06:25] <charon> stereotypes as a way to avoid thinking.
[04:06:28] <nick> or ideological in the socialist/communist - capitalist/libertarian - liberal/conservative
[04:06:36] <nick> if you go outside of party politics
[04:07:04] <nick> but generally speaking people have this binary understanding of politics and society
[04:07:14] <charon> yeah, in the US for sure
[04:07:15] <nick> if you're not with us, you're against us mentality
[04:07:24] <nick> it's not much different in the UK
[04:07:41] <charon> how many vible political parties are there in the UK?
[04:07:45] <charon> viable
[04:08:22] <nick> effectively two parties, and as i mentioned the other day i think... the threat of a viable third party is what forced the government to do the EU vote
[04:09:00] <charon> huh, i recall that. i guess i sort of thought that because of the parliamentary system more parties were viable
[04:09:08] <nick> there was a technically viable third party, but due to the results of the election before the most recent
[04:09:21] <nick> the third party ended up in a coalition government with the conservative party
[04:09:35] <nick> and managed to lose most of their base support
[04:09:51] <nick> because it took approximately 1 month of them being in power to sound and act exactly like all the other politicians
[04:10:06] <charon> hah
[04:11:09] <nick> it created a great situation for the conservatives, as they could blame the liberals for policy they didn't want, or the policy they wanted but couldn't do
[04:11:31] <nick> which is how they got out of doing the EU vote the last time, because they didn't have a majority government
[04:12:00] <charon> which no one wanted to be left holding the bag on
[04:12:11] <nick> but this time round, they won convincingly with 36.9% of the vote
[04:12:14] <charon> very clever
[04:12:46] <nick> which is the other side of the type of democracy available with multiple parties
[04:13:01] <nick> the winner ends up with <40% of the vote
[04:13:27] <charon> plurality is... distasteful
[04:14:14] <nick> it also lead to the situation, which was the biggest concern that UKIP got nearly 4 million votes
[04:14:31] <nick> which is about 12% of the turnout
[04:15:04] <nick> but because how those votes were dispersed across the whole country, they ended up with only 1 seat in parliament
[04:15:24] <charon> but those numbers are worrisome
[04:15:26] <nick> lots of people all over the country voted for them, rather than lots of people in specific areas
[04:16:08] <nick> liberals got 2.4 million votes but 8 seats, SNP got 1.4 but 55 seats
[04:16:28] <nick> because their supports are consolidated into certain areas
[04:16:46] <nick> snp being obvious and limited, being the scottish party
[04:19:54] <nick> so it's similar to how the US system works, but because there are more regional parties and effectively 4 major national parties now
[04:20:02] <nick> it makes the situation even more 'ehhh'
[04:20:54] <nick> last time i looked, there is a couple of seats in parliament that are filled by people who got about 25% of the vote
[04:21:05] <nick> but it was still obviously more than what the competition got
[04:21:07] <charon> i would have thought more options gives a diversity. but if being in a coalition government corrupts so easily
[04:21:52] <nick> it wasn't so much they got corrupted, they were used to being in a position where they could just say any old shit and never have to actually back it up
[04:21:55] <nick> because they never got elected
[04:22:08] <nick> then they ended up in government and got rings run around them by real political operators
[04:22:18] <charon> ah, i see. i know a president like that
[04:24:14] <charon> here's how i see 2019: UK brexits, scotland secedes and joins the Nordics, Ireland secedes and rejoins the EU so it can keep giving sweetheart tax breaks to apple. and no one is happy
[04:24:32] <charon> or everyone is happy
[04:24:38] <nick> even with everything going for them, the 'left/liberals' in the UK are a non-existent threat to the gov right now
[04:25:12] <nick> the conservative government is still making a massive balls up of the situation, and they have literally no opposition now, but they still can't even look competent
[04:25:27] <nick> careful, Ireland is NOT the UK
[04:25:36] <nick> northern ireland is, but that's a whole different thing
[04:27:21] <nick> https://en.wikipedia.org
[04:27:23] <exec> └─ 13The Troubles - Wikipedia
[04:27:25] <charon> oh, good point. my bad. i guess northern ireland would stay with britain
[04:28:18] <nick> it's most likely that's the case, but it does depend on how events evolve now
[04:29:32] <nick> building a wall between northern ireland and ireland is not something people want to see again... but having an 'open border with the EU' is another situation people don't want to see either
[04:31:11] <nick> the brexit situation has the potential to put huge pressure and problems for NI, and since they're for the most part ignored by the UK political establishment, there could be a real push to unify ireland
[04:32:24] <nick> on a related note, 'the troubles' and such are how i view things as far as the UK's position to mediate and create peace in the wider world... we've managed to barely do it in ireland after a few hundred years
[04:33:03] <nick> and there's common language, common religion and other social norms... but still a lot of political/terrorist violence
[04:34:47] <charon> hmm, i know only a tiny bit about the troubles. i was not aware that it was still ongoing.
[04:35:04] <nick> officially it's not
[04:35:32] <nick> but obviously just because some figureheads sign some paperwork, doesn't mean the people on the ground who've been surrounded by one sides propaganda
[04:35:36] <nick> it doesn't just disappear
[04:35:49] <charon> well, i mean any violence at all. fair point^
[04:37:45] <charon> i hope that our division in the US never gets to that level. but i fear it may
[04:37:59] <nick> and as someone who only got the UK side of it... i was unaware until i actually researched it there were loyalist militants as well
[04:38:20] <nick> from the story you get presented, it's easy to assume it's only the republicans.
[04:38:38] <charon> yeah
[04:38:57] <nick> and the scary murals of people in balaclavas and and machine gunes
[04:38:59] <nick> guns
[04:39:07] <nick> they're from the loyalists, not the republicans
[04:40:03] <nick> https://en.wikipedia.org
[04:40:05] <exec> └─ 13Pat Finucane - Wikipedia
[04:40:28] <nick> first couple lines of that illustrates a complicated situation
[04:41:00] <charon> took 20 years for the govt to admit it
[04:41:03] <nick> but unless you actually look into it, you'll never hear about that incident
[04:41:31] <nick> human rights lawyer killed with the help from MI5 is not something that fits in with the UK narrative of the situation
[04:41:47] <nick> 'The Daily Telegraph quoted Prime Minister David Cameron saying "[there are] people in buildings all around here who won’t let it happen"'
[04:43:57] <nick> just another situation than there's many more dimensions to these kind of events than is generally understood
[04:44:31] <charon> translated: it would be bad for my career to let this happen
[04:45:36] <nick> bad for a lot of establishment figures if the situation did really come to light
[04:46:05] <nick> like there was an agreement that british troops couldn't be prosecuted for crimes and such during 'the troubles'
[04:46:10] <nick> because it would be bad for morale and such
[04:46:27] <nick> but obviously now it just proves how good and upstanding all our efforts were, because no one got into trouble
[04:48:22] <Fnord666> Gentlemen, it's time for me to call it an evening.
[04:48:41] <nick> g'night Fnord666
[04:48:43] <Fnord666> you both have a good night and I'll talk to you tomorrow.
[04:48:51] <Fnord666> good night nick
[04:48:53] <charon> gnight Fnord666, take care
[04:49:02] <Fnord666> you too charon
[04:49:05] <nick> charon, one quote on the topic... " an article from the Belfast Telegraph, ‘half of all top IRA men worked for security services’. It refers to a dossier based on the testimony of a whistleblower who says that as many as 1 in 4 members of the IRA were informers or agents for British intelligence, rising to as many as 1 in 2 in the upper ranks. "
[04:49:12] <Fnord666> hope your project works out.
[04:49:22] <charon> it will prbably explode
[04:49:45] <nick> ' John Joe Magee – the head of the IRA’s internal security who was also a British government agent. So the guy inside the IRA who was responsible for rooting out traitors and spies was himself a traitor and a spy.'
[04:50:26] <charon> nick: wow. that's crazy
[04:50:51] <charon> i bet anyone who was a real player knew that they were riddled with spies
[04:51:59] <nick> there's obviously a lot more to the situation, but it gives you a flavour of the things that are generally ignored in a complex geopolitical situation
[04:54:31] <nick> you can't expect everyone to subscribe to an ideology, but if you can work to enable at least partial control of the most visible opposition, then you are in a much better position to keep pushing things in the desired direction
[04:56:28] <charon> yeah. propaganda is huge in war or peace
[04:57:39] <charon> in college i took a writing class that focused on war poetry. it was far more interesting than i expected
[04:58:30] <charon> and a lot of the older poetry, pre-WWI stuff read like propaganda. all about glory and salvation
[04:59:06] <charon> and duty, plenty of duty
[04:59:13] <nick> i can see validity to certain elements of many ideologies, but i cannot subscribe to any of them... i just try and learn as much as possible outside the prisms of political and national identity
[04:59:39] <nick> yeah, i bet
[05:00:22] <nick> might have mentioned this before, but the UK got into some shit for trying to reframe WWI as the UK 'fighting for democracy'
[05:00:31] <nick> rather than 'fighting for the defence of the empire'
[05:02:03] <charon> the US gave that reason too. making the world safe for democracy
[05:03:03] <nick> WWI is something i want to do some reading on, i know very little about it
[05:03:47] <charon> besides which, the president at the time was elected on the promise that he would stay out of the war. right after the election, we started gearing up
[05:06:50] <charon> though, to be sure, germany was provoking the US
[05:08:30] <nick> i'm skimming over the relevant wikipedia
[05:08:39] <nick> and that's as clear as mud so far
[05:08:46] <nick> https://en.wikipedia.org
[05:08:47] <exec> └─ 13American entry into World War I - Wikipedia
[05:09:10] <charon> it is a book length topic
[05:10:57] <charon> might want to look at https://en.wikipedia.org into World War I
[05:10:58] <exec> └─ 13Woodrow Wilson - Wikipedia
[05:11:15] <nick> at least the 'safe for democracy' was actually a quote from the time
[05:11:29] <charon> oops, lost the underscores in that link
[05:12:00] <charon> https://en.wikipedia.org
[05:12:02] <exec> └─ 13Woodrow Wilson - Wikipedia
[05:15:40] <nick> here's what i was looking for regarding the UK's position on that
[05:15:43] <nick> "Even after the passing of the Third Reform Act in 1884, only 60%[3] of male householders over the age of 21 had the vote. Following the horrors of World War I, millions of returning soldiers would still not have been entitled to vote in the long overdue general election."
[05:16:37] <nick> that's how i understand it, WWI forced the hand of the UK establishment in accepting a degree of democracy
[05:17:44] <nick> wasn't until 1928 that all women over 21 got the right to vote though
[05:18:09] <charon> well geez, quit whining and get some land worth £10
[05:18:33] <nick> and then it wasn't until 1948 that everyone got one vote
[05:18:50] <nick> in the good ol' days, landowners and the like got multiple votes
[05:19:17] <charon> some animals are more equal
[05:20:34] <charon> oh this line is cute. about the 4th reform act in 1918: Had women been enfranchised based upon the same requirements as men, they would have been in the majority because of the loss of men in the war. This may explain why the age of 30 was settled on.
[05:21:03] <nick> which then lead us to the point we're at now, where people who truly wield influence do not attach themselves directly to one political movements
[05:21:12] <charon> wouldn't want girls outvoting us men-folk
[05:22:22] <nick> indeed, and then there's the house of lords to make sure the people or their 'commons' representatives don't get drunk on their power
[05:23:20] <nick> which is as bad as it's always been... instead of people being born into the lords... people now have to buy and connive their way into it.
[05:25:56] <charon> Officially, the full name of the house is: The Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled.
[05:26:20] <charon> that sounds like a joke
[05:26:29] <nick> church of england bishops get seats in the lords, Christian country and all
[05:26:30] <charon> but i am sure it is deadly serious
[05:27:27] <nick> rt. hon. is a term used a lot in government... they have to/choose to refer to each other as 'the right honourable member smith said x and i want to take him to task on y'
[05:27:56] <charon> i guess spiritual refers to the CoE members
[05:31:35] <nick> one of the most recent additions to the house of lords was a press officer for David Cameron (former PM, stepped down after losing EU vote)
[05:31:51] <nick> on his way out the door, he gave a handful of his friends positions in the lords
[05:32:01] <charon> the PM can do that?
[05:32:05] <charon> wild
[05:32:26] <charon> but it's only a life term, not heritable, right?
[05:32:30] <nick> yeah
[05:33:00] <nick> but she was born in 78, so one assumes she's going to make the most of that 'job for life'
[05:33:09] <charon> man
[05:34:12] <nick> apparently on his way out the door he gave life peerages to 5 people who worked with him while in government
[05:34:42] <nick> but there are other honours too, not everyone gets a peerage
[05:35:14] <nick> if all honours are included, apparently he gave 46 to former aides, advisors and ministers under him
[05:36:38] <nick> "Tory MPs accuse David Cameron of 'devaluing the system' by awarding honours to his wife's stylist and his former drivers " - The Telegraph
[05:37:58] <charon> i sort of like the anachronism of a house hereditary peers. looks like Lords has not been that in a long time though
[05:38:21] <charon> 20 years or so
[05:39:40] <nick> it's complicated when the hereditary nature goes back to family dynasties from before democracy
[05:40:17] <nick> I like this quote from Prince Phillip (married to the Queen) ... "I would like to go to Russia very much, although the bastards murdered half my family."
[05:40:28] <charon> i especially like the detour to https://en.wikipedia.org
[05:40:29] <exec> └─ 13Rotten and pocket boroughs - Wikipedia
[05:41:03] <charon> like Old Sarum which had 11 inhabitants but held the right to have 2 seats in parliament
[05:41:38] <nick> in olden times, while they might have been at war and the like... the various royal families around europe were very much related and were not nationalists in the same contexts we understand it today
[05:42:30] <nick> thats a good wiki page
[05:46:31] <charon> ugh. the other reason i'm salty: i closed the store, and have to go back to open it in the morning.
[05:46:47] <charon> which is in 5 hours
[05:46:57] <charon> so i should get some sleep before then
[05:47:05] <nick> yes you should!
[05:47:16] <nick> sorry for keeping you up with my ramblings :p
[05:47:24] <charon> not at all, i enjoy it
[05:47:55] <nick> hope you learned something, although probably not stuff to share in general conversation ;)
[05:48:33] <nick> g'night charon, get some rest
[05:48:42] <charon> gnight nick, take it easy
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[12:56:13] <cmn32480> ~gday #editorial
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[13:13:56] <Bytram> #fite Hephaestus
[13:13:56] <MrPlow> #fite spam going to channel #fite
[13:14:13] <MrPlow> #fite Hephaestus falls broken at Bytram's feet.
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[19:28:48] -!- mode/#editorial [+v nick] by Hephaestus
[20:18:40] <Bytram> #fite Hephaestus
[20:18:40] <MrPlow> #fite spam going to channel #fite
[20:18:51] <MrPlow> #fite Hephaestus falls broken at Bytram's feet.
[20:33:26] <Bytram> #fite Hephaestus
[20:33:26] <MrPlow> #fite spam going to channel #fite
[20:33:33] <MrPlow> #fite Hephaestus falls broken at Bytram's feet.
[21:34:50] <nick> ahoy
[21:41:01] <Bytram> yoha!
[21:44:37] <nick> how is Bytram
[21:45:01] <Bytram> okay, thanks. still not entirely up to full speed, but getting better every day
[21:45:20] <Bytram> arm is back to almost normal size -- yay!
[21:45:37] <Bytram> funny you should stop by,
[21:45:38] <cmn32480> that'swhat happens when you miss the TP...
[21:46:16] <Bytram> I'm finally about to push out my story that's been sitting in the queue forvever and I'm trying to find the story wherewe requested volunteers for editors
[21:46:36] <Bytram> am coming up empty at the moment, anyone remember who ran it?
[21:46:51] <Bytram> oh, nvm
[21:46:58] <cmn32480> I wrote it.
[21:47:06] <cmn32480> and I think I ran it...
[21:47:14] <cmn32480> I'm a rebel
[21:47:17] <Bytram> doh! I already had the link in the story and didn't even see it! :/
[21:50:43] <Bytram> can you believe the request went out on 11/11 -- it's been over two months already?
[21:51:19] <cmn32480> yes and yes
[21:51:26] <cmn32480> time flies when you let the new guys do ti all
[21:52:41] <Bytram> lol
[21:55:23] <Bytram> okay, have scheduled the story for 0700 ET tomorrow... https://soylentnews.org
[21:55:25] <exec> └─ 13Error
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[22:49:59] <Bytram> and... filled in the slots leading up to it.
[22:54:37] <mrpg> Hi. I'm doing the squirrel submission, funny. Or is it a weekend story?
[23:28:11] <Bytram> IMHO, nothing says that funny has to be restricted to the weekend. :)
[23:28:41] <Bytram> besides with the presidential inauguration tomorrow, a little humor might be a welcome respite to the partisan goings-on
[23:28:51] <Bytram> and with that, I need to head out.
[23:29:01] <Bytram> `gnight #editorial
[23:29:05] <Bytram> ~gnight #editorial
[23:29:06] * exec cantankerously hurls two fingers of tomacco at #editorial
[23:31:43] <mrpg> bye