#editorial | Logs for 2016-11-26

« return
[00:04:23] <cmn32480> ~last type=quit nick=NCommander
[00:04:32] <exec> 03[2016-11-21 11:45:4] #editorial <NCommander> Quit: Coyote finally caught me
[00:40:17] -!- charon [charon!Mibbit@Soylent/Staff/Editor/charon] has joined #editorial
[00:40:17] -!- mode/#editorial [+v charon] by Hephaestus
[00:41:07] <charon> hiyo #editorial
[01:38:01] -!- charon has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
[02:23:28] -!- charon [charon!Mibbit@Soylent/Staff/Editor/charon] has joined #editorial
[02:23:28] -!- mode/#editorial [+v charon] by Hephaestus
[03:20:01] -!- n1 [n1!~n1@Soylent/Staff/Editor/n1] has joined #editorial
[03:20:01] -!- mode/#editorial [+v n1] by Hephaestus
[07:11:39] -!- caffeine [caffeine!~andrew@101.175.lh.in] has joined #editorial
[07:31:35] -!- charon has quit [Quit: goodnight]
[07:49:25] zz_janrinok is now known as janrinok
[07:50:25] janrinok is now known as SoyGuest26698
[07:54:30] -!- n1_ [n1_!~n1@Soylent/Staff/Editor/n1] has joined #editorial
[07:54:30] -!- mode/#editorial [+v n1_] by Hephaestus
[07:54:54] SoyGuest26698 is now known as janrinok
[07:55:54] janrinok is now known as SoyGuest63650
[07:56:46] -!- n1 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[08:07:38] SoyGuest63650 is now known as zz_SoyGuest63650
[08:23:56] zz_SoyGuest63650 is now known as zz_zz_SoyGuest63650
[09:04:47] zz_zz_SoyGuest63650 is now known as SG-janrinok
[09:07:32] SG-janrinok is now known as janrinok_soyguest
[11:11:57] -!- caffeine has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
[13:09:46] chromas is now known as Shotgun
[13:09:57] Shotgun is now known as chromas
[15:21:48] <cmn32480> ~eds - time to start pushing stories again. you had you holiday, now get back to work!
[15:21:49] <exec> editor ping for cmn32480 (reason: - time to start pushing stories again. you had you holiday, now get back to work!): janrinok zz_janrinok n1 nick martyb Bytram cmn32480 coolhand takyon bytram|away Fnord666 charon GreatOutdoors FatPhil Snow goodie mrpg
[15:50:20] <chromas> *whip crack*
[15:58:50] <janrinok_soyguest> cmn32480, I'm not going to 2nd your stories, I'll let one of the new eds do them
[15:59:06] <cmn32480> 10-4
[15:59:22] <cmn32480> i hate watching the negative cash flow this time of year.
[15:59:28] <cmn32480> drives me insane
[15:59:53] <janrinok_soyguest> I don't have to pay to 2nd stories do I?
[16:00:21] * cmn32480 thinks that might be a decent plan... as his editorial salary is not going nearly as far as it was hoped
[16:00:28] <janrinok_soyguest> lol
[17:21:50] <n1_> afternoon
[18:06:58] <janrinok_soyguest> n1_, hi how's things?
[18:09:56] <n1_> not too bad
[18:10:04] <n1_> how are you?
[18:10:19] <janrinok_soyguest> not bad, just finished dinner and settling down for a quiet evening
[18:12:19] <janrinok_soyguest> its been a fairly quiet few days so far
[18:12:59] <janrinok_soyguest> which makes a very pleasant change
[18:13:08] <cmn32480> did you do it???
[18:13:14] <cmn32480> did she laugh or yell at you?
[18:13:35] <janrinok_soyguest> nah, it was rather slimy, and wouldn't have gone down well, I fear
[18:13:53] * cmn32480 frowns
[18:13:58] <janrinok_soyguest> tasted nice though, fennel and lemon batter coating
[18:13:59] <cmn32480> oh well
[18:14:08] <cmn32480> verra nice
[18:14:11] <janrinok_soyguest> I can always save it for another time
[18:14:49] <cmn32480> keeping a good slapstick joke in your pocket is always a good idea
[18:15:12] <janrinok_soyguest> you've probably got n1 wondering what the hell we are talking about now
[18:15:28] <cmn32480> n1_, I suggestted that janrinok_soyguest come out of the kitchen with the squid stuck to his glasses complaining about dinner getting the better of him
[18:15:51] <n1_> lol
[18:16:00] <cmn32480> SEE???? he thought it was funny too
[18:16:48] <janrinok_soyguest> well, that joke would have required me to follow it with a shower, or at least a good wash
[18:17:05] <janrinok_soyguest> it was a good size squid
[18:17:07] <cmn32480> isn't it time for your weekly?
[18:17:36] <janrinok_soyguest> weekly - what do you think we do here? waste water?
[18:17:53] <cmn32480> given how the french smell... no, I don't
[18:17:58] <janrinok_soyguest> 1 December, same as last year
[18:18:14] <n1_> hah
[18:19:13] <janrinok_soyguest> actually that old joke is pretty accurate. Public transport and even queues in stores can find you next to someone who seems to have been avoiding soap and water for some considerable time
[18:19:14] <n1_> you could save more water by showering on 29th Feb
[18:19:59] * janrinok_soyguest makes note in diary
[18:20:05] <cmn32480> oh
[18:20:05] <cmn32480> dear
[18:20:09] <cmn32480> and on that note...
[18:20:24] * cmn32480 pinches his nose and takes his kids to the stupid amusement park
[18:20:25] <janrinok_soyguest> you going shopping or to the shower?
[18:20:49] <n1_> sounds fun, for the kids.
[18:20:52] <janrinok_soyguest> ah, yes, the threatened amusement park. Now you be a good Dad and look as if you are enjoying yourself
[18:21:32] <cmn32480> yes dear
[18:22:13] <janrinok_soyguest> :)
[18:22:14] <cmn32480> somebody pleae kill me.
[18:22:23] <cmn32480> put me out of my misery
[18:22:26] <cmn32480> it's cold
[18:22:27] <cmn32480> grey
[18:22:40] <cmn32480> and I gotta drive 90 minutes to get to a place I don't wanna go
[18:22:48] <janrinok_soyguest> earn yourself some brownie points, tell J she can rest at home and you'll go alone with the kids...
[18:23:06] <cmn32480> hell no
[18:23:12] <janrinok_soyguest> drive as far as the nearest junk food shop and come to some agreement with them
[18:23:36] <cmn32480> <sigh> things I wish I had thought about 2 hours ago
[18:23:44] <cmn32480> gotta run
[18:23:46] <cmn32480> you kids be good
[18:23:52] <janrinok_soyguest> and you
[18:23:57] * n1_ hat tip
[18:52:25] -!- Fnord666 [Fnord666!~Fnord666@Soylent/Staff/Editor/Fnord666] has joined #editorial
[18:52:25] -!- mode/#editorial [+v Fnord666] by Hephaestus
[18:52:50] <janrinok_soyguest> ~gevening Fnord666
[18:53:13] <Fnord666> ~gevening janrinok_soyguest
[18:53:40] <janrinok_soyguest> how's you weekend going?
[18:53:47] <janrinok_soyguest> your*
[18:53:53] <Fnord666> so far so good. Yourself?
[18:54:09] <janrinok_soyguest> quiet - which is good
[18:55:10] <Fnord666> Did everyone survive yesterday?
[18:55:33] <Fnord666> I know we have some folks in retail...
[18:55:40] <janrinok_soyguest> well, it's not a holiday here, so nothing special. I don't join in Black Friday!
[18:56:04] <janrinok_soyguest> martyb will have been busy, and for the whole weekend too I guess
[18:57:23] <Fnord666> Is Black Friday a thing where you are?
[18:57:40] <janrinok_soyguest> cmn has just taken his family out to an amusement park - but he didn't want to go
[18:58:22] <janrinok_soyguest> Not in France, no, The UK started doing BF in 2010, and it has deteriorated in the usual displays of human greed and rudeness
[18:59:06] <Fnord666> That's disappointing.
[18:59:09] <n1_> social events with a direct focus on consumerism is uniquely american, in my opinion
[18:59:38] <Fnord666> I was just thinking the same thing, although with smaller words. :-)
[18:59:41] <n1_> but because the UK doesn't want to be european, we're apparently going to emulate america to prove how not-european we are
[19:00:11] <janrinok_soyguest> unfortunately, I fear you will be proven correct
[19:00:18] <Fnord666> That is the path to madness.
[19:00:43] <n1_> well, we have to get something out of that 'special relationship' beyond supporting US foreign policy
[19:01:04] <n1_> so unabashed consumerism is the easiest thing to go with
[19:01:24] <Fnord666> I had always pictured the British as being above all that.
[19:01:38] <janrinok_soyguest> maybe once we were, but no longer
[19:01:44] <n1_> and obviously the removal of protection for the labour force, and the privatization of the NHS
[19:02:03] <n1_> but an early run of january sales is compensation for those minor indiscretions.
[19:03:10] <Fnord666> I think someone got the short end of the stick on that deal.
[19:03:27] <n1_> Fnord666, previous UK governments have essentially let the US shape a lot of policy direction, just leaving the UK government to frame it
[19:04:10] <Fnord666> Is the current govt. taking a different direction?
[19:04:37] <n1_> not really, especially now 'brexit means brexit' we have to make closer ties to the US
[19:04:44] <janrinok_soyguest> nope - accelerating it if anything
[19:04:48] <n1_> although they have had to change footing slightly because of Trump
[19:05:03] <Fnord666> speaking of paths that lead to madness
[19:05:19] <n1_> all the talking down of Trump has been washed away, now the UK government is happy to see trump as justification for their own decisions
[19:05:42] <Fnord666> interesting
[19:06:00] <n1_> there are parallels between the EU referendum and the US presidential election
[19:06:15] <n1_> in both situations the traditional right wing is doing damage control to stop the third parties from gaining traction
[19:06:26] <n1_> the survival of the party is more important than the country itself
[19:06:30] <janrinok_soyguest> notice that the 2 Brits in this conversation are not in the UK
[19:06:39] <n1_> heh
[19:07:07] <Fnord666> I did not know that.
[19:07:26] <janrinok_soyguest> I'm in France and n1 is currently in S America
[19:07:42] <janrinok_soyguest> I've lived here for about 10 years now
[19:08:26] <n1_> you can just take a look at the last 3 UK centric stories this site has put up
[19:08:46] <n1_> and you can see the kind of direction the UK gov is taking while everyone is looking at the EU situation
[19:08:51] <n1_> where nothing is actually happening
[19:08:55] <audioguy> I'm amrican but read The Guardian for US news and world news. Curious what the Brits here read for UK news.
[19:09:10] <Fnord666> I was just wodnering that myself.
[19:09:17] <Fnord666> I'm assuming not the BBD?
[19:09:22] <Fnord666> BBC?
[19:09:47] <janrinok_soyguest> you can get your news anywhere, as long as you balance it with a broad spectrum of sources
[19:09:51] <audioguy> The BBD is the dark side :-0
[19:09:57] <n1_> I try to read equal measures of all the primary outlets
[19:09:58] <Fnord666> :-)
[19:10:05] <n1_> but i also have a subscription to Private Eye
[19:10:16] <n1_> which details a lot of the internal politics of journalism in the UK
[19:10:38] <janrinok_soyguest> Watching the BBC World TV is still quite good, but balance it with watching what other sources are saying too
[19:10:39] <n1_> stuff you cannot read anywhere else, because it's the journalists talking about the bad decisions their own papers/organizations are making
[19:10:59] <n1_> or the hypocrisy of things like the Daily Mail, Telegraph and Guardian all having certain editorial spins about tax evasion
[19:11:11] <n1_> but all have majority shareholders in opaque offshore trusts
[19:11:40] <n1_> so they don't rock the boat for each other generally, stay in their own corners and preach to their respective choirs
[19:12:09] <Fnord666> well that's interesting, but unsurprising these days I guess.
[19:12:56] <n1_> it shouldn't be surprising but it's worthy of note
[19:13:38] <janrinok_soyguest> and then you have to be careful that you don't just read the stuff which reinforces your own particular world view - it is an easy trap to fall into. Just because a source tells you what you want to hear doesn't make it accurate reporting
[19:14:04] <Fnord666> Yep. Confirmation bias is a far too common.
[19:14:08] <audioguy> The Guardianis more balanced on US news than any paper here. But they have gone off the deep end a bit over the US elections lately.
[19:14:31] <audioguy> At least some other their writers.
[19:14:35] <n1_> audioguy, the guardian is the most liberal elite of liberal elite papers in the UK
[19:14:36] <audioguy> of their
[19:14:52] <n1_> they do some very good work on some things, but they do have their own agenda too
[19:14:55] <janrinok_soyguest> When I read the Russian newspapers I can often find an interesting slant on what is happening in, say, Syria. Not that I accept what they are saying either, but it becomes easier to see their own viewpoint.
[19:15:00] <audioguy> YEah, quite a bit to the left of me :-) I factor that in.
[19:15:25] <audioguy> RT is good for an interseting perspective.
[19:15:33] <n1_> The Telegraph used to be quite good, but has become a shell of its former self
[19:15:37] <janrinok_soyguest> well, anywhere in Europe is leftwing if you compare it to either of the US parties
[19:15:42] <n1_> but it trades on it's old reputation
[19:15:52] <audioguy> I look at the independent sometimes too.
[19:15:59] <Fnord666> RT?
[19:16:08] <janrinok_soyguest> Russia Today
[19:16:10] <n1_> if you read a mix of Independent, Guardian and Telegraph
[19:16:22] <n1_> you get a fairly well rounded view of how a story has been presented in the UK
[19:16:28] <Fnord666> thx. Is that in English?
[19:16:30] <n1_> still probably bollocks and missing the point
[19:16:35] <janrinok_soyguest> Fnord666, yep
[19:16:38] <audioguy> Tat is pretty much what I do.
[19:16:54] <n1_> RT does some decent reporting
[19:17:05] <audioguy> http://rt.com
[19:17:08] <exec> └─ 13RT
[19:17:45] <Fnord666> thx. I'll add that to the rotation.
[19:17:50] <n1_> if you're going to keep up on Syria, then you're doing a disservice to yourself by not reading russian media in tandem with western media
[19:17:55] <audioguy> The US papers have lousy coverage of international news, in general.
[19:18:09] <audioguy> Agree with n1
[19:18:27] <Fnord666> Their overseas branches are not what they used to be.
[19:19:28] <n1_> it's more important to see what the 'other side' doesn't say than what they do
[19:19:49] <audioguy> And what your own side doesn't say :-)
[19:19:53] <n1_> the western media relies heavily on the Syrian Observatory For Human Rights
[19:20:08] <n1_> which is essentially one guy who lives in the UK somewhere making some phonecalls
[19:24:00] <audioguy> US papers have been very bad since forever. Thomas Jefferson said we we better off not reading them at all, as they were alleither lies or wrng facts. You could get better information at the local tavern. :-)
[19:25:15] <Fnord666> Because there are no lies being told or wrong facts being presented in a tavern.
[19:25:26] <Fnord666> :-)
[19:25:37] <n1_> http://www.innercitypress.com is an interesting source for UN related matters
[19:25:39] <exec> └─ 13Inner City Press: Investigative Reporting from the UN;
[19:26:02] <n1_> the guy who runs it is actually there at the UN, asking questions in the meetings/conferences
[19:26:16] <audioguy> He didn't say perfect, just better :-)
[19:26:53] <Fnord666> Unfortunately it seems like the whole concept of "investigative reporting" has all but disappeared.
[19:27:23] <n1_> Fnord666, it hasn't but it's not food for advertisers and corporate sponsors, so you're not going to get published by the 'mainstream'
[19:27:39] <audioguy> Along with any attempt at unbiased reporting.
[19:28:12] <Fnord666> They definitely don't waht to bite the hand that feeds.
[19:28:29] <n1_> the inner city press guy had an office in the UN, as legitimate press
[19:28:41] <n1_> for unconfirmed reasons he got his press credentials taken off him and booted out
[19:28:58] <n1_> 4 months later he was allowed back in, the UN's response to why he was banned was "you're back in now, so it's ok"
[19:29:24] <Fnord666> So he got put in "time out"?
[19:30:18] <n1_> he's also put questions to UN officials on corruption in the UN and he's had responses like "I do not answer you"
[19:31:20] <Fnord666> "No comment" is a fair answer that probably will get you in the least amount of trouble.
[19:31:32] <audioguy> Wow, that is more UN news in one place than I have ever seen. Added to my list.
[19:31:49] <janrinok_soyguest> diplomats and others who are servants of the people shouldn't be able to claim 'no comment' - aren't they are supposed to be doing the job for us
[19:32:08] <n1_> audioguy, if you're interested there's a podcast interview the guy did which goes into a lot more detail and is quite easy to listen to
[19:33:22] <Fnord666> That podcast would be interesting
[19:33:44] <audioguy> Yeah, link.
[19:33:45] <n1_> https://porkinspolicyreview.com
[19:33:47] <exec> └─ 13Porkins Policy Radio episode 57 Matthew Russell Lee – Corruption and Control at the UN | Porkins Policy Review
[19:34:28] <Fnord666> thx
[19:34:32] <n1_> here's a tweet from him yesterday which sums it up: "UN paid Spox Office people today. 4:30 pm ICP went in, was asked, “Do you want something?” Yes: at least 1 answer to 6 am Qs"
[19:35:18] <audioguy> The UN is where politicians who are too popular to jail and too annoying to have around for those in power get sent.
[19:35:44] <n1_> interesting thing he's covered recently is that Ban-Ki Moon's brother has some kind of mining(i think) operation in Myanmar(burma)
[19:37:37] <n1_> " Two weeks after Inner City Press formally gave UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon's spokesman Stephane Dujarric a link to an Internet page about Ban's brother Ki-ho engaged in mining in Myanmar's Shan state, the response has been to have the page removed from the Internet. "
[19:39:15] <Fnord666> Is it telling that I wonder whether I should be using TOR to read these sites or am I just being completely paranoid?
[19:39:42] <Fnord666> The fact that the thought crossed my mind worries me a bit.
[19:39:48] <audioguy> Using Tor guaratees you are considered 'of interst' :-)
[19:40:06] <n1_> lol
[19:40:25] <n1_> there is some good work being done out there, but it's not pleasant reading or listening often
[19:40:36] <n1_> and it can rarely be summarized in a couple of paragraphs
[19:40:52] <janrinok_soyguest> they are hardly considered radical sites of enemy propaganda
[19:41:35] <n1_> http://www.innercitypress.com
[19:41:37] <exec> └─ 13Inner City Press: Investigative Reporting from the United
[19:42:55] <audioguy> What, you mean it doesn't fit in a 'Tweet'? Never mind then. :-)
[19:44:14] <Fnord666> lol
[19:46:11] <n1_> had a storm here now it's all humid and blah
[19:46:44] <audioguy> When I first read about Twitter I thought it was something like an Onion joke. A service for twits limited to one line. Ha HA. Sure, like anyone would actually USE that.
[19:47:06] <n1_> i only recently started using twitter
[19:47:25] <n1_> when the GBP/USD flash crash happened, i had nowhere else to go WTF JUST HAPPENED?!
[19:47:37] <audioguy> I have never, one line does not suit my writing style. :-)
[19:49:02] <n1_> as you may be able to tell, it doesn't suit mine either, but it's actually a very good way of keeping up with stories as they happen
[19:49:28] <n1_> the propornot thing from yesterday was torn apart pretty well by people on twitter
[19:49:41] <audioguy> Unless we are like 15 minutes away from a nuclear war, I don't need my news quiet that fast.
[19:50:05] <janrinok_soyguest> and if we are that close, what will you be doing...?
[19:50:10] <n1_> audioguy, not saying everyone should be looking at it, but i've found it pretty useful
[19:50:23] <audioguy> Not caring about counting down the minutes :-)
[19:50:35] <janrinok_soyguest> last thing you need then will be twitter
[19:50:44] <audioguy> Don;t waste your time, I will never use it. :-)
[19:51:06] <n1_> twitter is the best and the worst of the internet all in 140 characters
[19:52:58] <Fnord666> It's just a tool. Like Facebook, I have an account to follow the people that I am interested in hearing from and who choose to communicate using that channel.
[19:53:25] <n1_> fuck facebook
[19:53:38] <audioguy> Good for you. I am not. :-)
[19:54:09] <Fnord666> :-)
[19:54:37] <janrinok_soyguest> well, I'd like to say that I have better thin
[19:54:57] <janrinok_soyguest> things to do than spend the evening on here chatting - but I haven't
[19:55:07] <janrinok_soyguest> but, it is time for me to go
[19:55:21] <janrinok_soyguest> have a good one guys - back here tomorrow probably :)
[19:55:26] <audioguy> Enjoy.
[19:55:27] <Fnord666> have a good evening janrinok
[19:55:31] <janrinok_soyguest> thx
[19:55:48] <Fnord666> talk to you tomorrow
[19:55:55] <janrinok_soyguest> hope so
[19:56:29] janrinok_soyguest is now known as zz_janrinok_soyguest
[19:57:11] -!- n1 [n1!~n1@Soylent/Staff/Editor/n1] has joined #editorial
[19:57:11] -!- mode/#editorial [+v n1] by Hephaestus
[19:57:37] <Fnord666> so now n1 is in the channel twice.
[19:57:40] <n1> blah, as i was trying to say before my internet died... if i hadn't watched a market crash happen in real time, i probably wouldn't be using twitter still.
[19:58:10] -!- n1_ has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by n1))]
[19:58:10] <Fnord666> welcome back~
[19:58:32] <Fnord666> that's a handy command
[19:59:00] <Fnord666> I had a ghost the other day that wouldn't go away.
[19:59:45] <n1> .. /msg nickserv ghost FnordGHOST password
[20:00:09] <audioguy> Well, I prpbably read about the crash withing a few hours. I assume you made a fortune by learning earlier.
[20:00:24] <audioguy> Or lost one :-)
[20:00:27] <n1> i was more concerned about why i lost a fortune just before i wanted to go to sleep
[20:00:54] <n1> literally checking the market as i went to bed, and i saw it happen and almost had a heart attack
[20:00:56] <audioguy> Always a great way to sleep well. :-)
[20:01:32] <n1> this is after already taking a beating over the referendum result so i was sore from that already
[20:01:59] <Fnord666> n1 - thanks
[20:02:25] <Fnord666> That's why I don't follow things like that quite that closely.
[20:02:38] <Fnord666> Nothing I can do about it so...
[20:03:01] <audioguy> Blissful ignorance is MY watchword!
[20:03:06] <n1> i'd been trying to work my way out of my position on GBP/USD but couldn't get the wheels to turn quick enough
[20:03:06] <Fnord666> :-)
[20:03:18] <n1> if i wasn't working on my trip to south america and other things, it wouldn't have been as important
[20:03:26] <n1> just a general talking point in the news
[20:03:55] <Fnord666> I like to think that I invest more for the long term and that short term events will even themselves out.
[20:03:59] <audioguy> GBP will dip again right whenthey actually START the brexit proceedings.
[20:04:16] <n1> audioguy, any time Theresa may speaks i lose money.
[20:04:28] <n1> it's what you want from your prime minister
[20:04:30] * Fnord666 laughs
[20:04:31] <audioguy> Ha HA. YEah.
[20:04:47] <Fnord666> sounds like you're betting the wrong way.
[20:04:51] <n1> it has literally felt like i've woken up in the morning and just burned whatever i had in my wallet
[20:04:55] <audioguy> We have Trump. Even MORE fun.
[20:05:07] <n1> Fnord666, being a UK resident with a UK LTD company
[20:05:10] <n1> i don't have many options
[20:05:19] <n1> well, i'm working on those options, but they take time
[20:05:36] <Fnord666> I see your point.
[20:05:52] <n1> and it's hard to cash out when the market is still good
[20:06:02] <n1> until the vote i had a good stream of new contracts
[20:06:09] <n1> but all those contracts were based on foreign investment
[20:06:18] <Fnord666> ouch
[20:06:42] <audioguy> Oh, wow.
[20:07:04] <audioguy> It will eventually get better.
[20:07:43] <n1> i feel like i've been kicked enough, it will get worse but i'm resigned to it for now.
[20:07:55] <n1> it might get better, but the UK gov has no plan
[20:08:15] <Fnord666> You are in S. America right now?
[20:08:28] <audioguy> Plan or not, sooner or later everyone realizes UK is still very important.
[20:08:54] <n1> audioguy, why is the UK still very important, and why is the world going to give the UK potentially years to reposition to keep it's dominant position in global markets
[20:09:28] <audioguy> Because you still have nukes. :-)
[20:09:38] <n1> same as the rest of europe though
[20:09:47] <n1> they're US nukes, even if we paid for them
[20:09:51] <audioguy> It only takes one :-)
[20:10:01] <Fnord666> Don't even kid.
[20:10:43] <audioguy> Why is UK still important? Large market, cpable markets, many ties to ex empire, and US.
[20:11:11] <n1> the capable markets are being disrupted by brexit
[20:11:30] <n1> the large market is still debt based in ever increasing amounts
[20:11:39] <audioguy> So is everywhere.
[20:12:09] <n1> which was a bad thing, until the last few months with the aforementioned votes
[20:12:30] <n1> now more debt is ok, because it's now the populists printing the money
[20:12:38] <audioguy> Are you sure brexit will happen? I saw sometuff on the legal end, apparently the popular vote is not enough, required parliament.
[20:12:53] <n1> and the country gets deeper into debt and peoples standards of living get lower, but their houses are worth more at least
[20:13:15] <Fnord666> It's been a very enlightening and informative discussion but I need to step away for a while. I will talk to you all later.
[20:13:26] <n1> because an affordable home in the south east should be £450,000, if we rock that boat then all the pensions will fail.
[20:13:34] <audioguy> Nationalize all the foreign housing in London :-)
[20:13:36] Fnord666 is now known as Fnord666_away
[20:13:40] <n1> audioguy, brexit is complicated
[20:13:52] <n1> "brexit means brexit" but "the outcomes are not binary"
[20:14:08] <n1> could be out of the EU on paper
[20:14:17] <audioguy> Yeah. The Germans are going to want blood.
[20:14:30] <n1> but could have open immigration, contributions to the EU budget, complying with all relevant laws
[20:14:31] <audioguy> But than cannot last forever, I suspect.
[20:14:40] <n1> membership of the EEA, membership of ECHR/Council of Europe
[20:15:07] <n1> the country was asked about membership of the EU, not the actual basis of anything... i'm pretty sure the UK will be off the 'members list'
[20:15:14] <n1> but may still retain all obligations associated with membership
[20:15:49] <audioguy> I wander if anything will happen with Scotland over this.
[20:15:57] <n1> don't get me wrong, the vote to leave the EU was a good decision at a base level
[20:16:12] <n1> but without any real context, and with a government that's only intent on saving itself and the party
[20:16:24] <n1> i'm not betting it's going to be good for the general population any time soon
[20:16:31] <audioguy> Business as usual then for the government.
[20:16:47] <n1> is worth noting that situation... Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar voted to remain in the EU
[20:17:41] <audioguy> It's a mess, really. I'm glad I can just watch with interest.
[20:17:42] <n1> they are countries in their own right, but they are part of another supranational organization being the UK
[20:18:18] <n1> and there are yet more countries, in the UK ish that had different associations with the EU
[20:19:01] <n1> some of those existing colonies had very beneficial relations with the EU, Jersey for example.
[20:20:11] <audioguy> Forgive my ignorance: Jersey? Colony?
[20:20:14] <n1> as the Luxembourg PM said "the UK was in the EU with lots of opt outs, now they want out the EU with lots of opt ins"
[20:20:45] <n1> jersey is a crown dependency
[20:20:54] <audioguy> Where is it?
[20:21:00] <n1> it's just off the UK mainland
[20:21:02] <audioguy> Physically
[20:21:32] <audioguy> Oh, OK. I am in US, can;t keep track of all the Kingly stuff. :-)
[20:21:37] <n1> Jersey has a separate relationship to the Crown from the other Crown dependencies of Guernsey and the Isle of Man, although all are held by the monarch of the United Kingdom.[12] It is not part of the United Kingdom,[13] and has an international identity separate from that of the UK,[14] but the United Kingdom is constitutionally responsible for the defence of Jersey.[15] The European Commission have confirmed in a written reply to the European
[20:21:38] <n1> Parliament in 2003[16] that Jersey is within the Union as a European Territory for whose external relationships the United Kingdom is responsible. Jersey is not fully part of the European Union but has a special relationship with it, notably being treated as within the European Community for the purposes of free trade in goods.[17]
[20:21:38] <n1> Contents
[20:23:05] <n1> more banks and companies than people
[20:23:48] <audioguy> Ah, becoming more clear. So not just a bunch of sheep herders that can be ignored. :-)
[20:24:23] <n1> Jersey did not get a vote on EU membership
[20:24:56] <audioguy> Ah. And they are not happy.
[20:25:41] <n1> my point is, it's extremely complicated beyond what anyone really gives the situation credit for, and the UK being a global financial centre, i don't think it can afford long negotiations to retain it's position when that position was earned through history, and now technology and other global powers have more leverage
[20:26:19] <audioguy> Yes, very sticky situtaion.
[20:26:38] <n1> The UK gov had to go to Nissan and promised them essentially state-aid to protect them from Brexit
[20:26:56] <n1> the uk gov is going to pick up the tab is nissan loses money on the situation
[20:26:59] <n1> if*
[20:27:43] <audioguy> So transfer of more money from the populace to the corporations.
[20:27:50] <audioguy> Based on fear.
[20:29:03] <n1> well we have to show the uk is 'open for business'
[20:29:14] <n1> including selling the country to the highest bidder
[20:29:48] <audioguy> Nationalize Nissan UK. :-)
[20:30:12] <n1> i hope the government decides to represent the people effectively, but until i see evidence of that i worry for the people who don't have any options
[20:30:28] <audioguy> Trade is good. I am less sure international corps beyond the control of ost goverments are good.
[20:31:36] <n1> trade is good, but the UK has little to offer in trade beyond a large population dependent on colonial history and debt
[20:31:38] <audioguy> They are probably headquartered in Ireland for tax purposes anyway :-0
[20:32:35] <n1> hq in ireland owned by an offshore trust in jersey via nevada and the cayman islands
[20:33:05] <audioguy> Sounds about right. I'd like to do that but suspect I would just wind up in jail.
[20:33:47] <n1> it's not something to do
[20:33:58] <audioguy> Kidding.
[20:34:55] <n1> another thing the UK took inspiration from the US apparently... self-employed and businesses will have to file quarterly tax returns soon
[20:36:42] <audioguy> Yeah, let no stone be left unturned to tax the poor and middle class.
[20:37:09] <n1> it's all going to be online too
[20:37:30] <audioguy> Really bad. Hope the site actually works.
[20:37:34] <n1> so it's bad for the people who have to do it, and the bookkeepers and accountants who will lose work
[20:37:45] <n1> except the top few accountancy firms obviously
[20:39:53] <n1> things could go really well, i'm just not going to have blind faith in the benevolence and competence of those making the decisions
[20:40:45] <audioguy> At least in the UK SOME of that tax money comes back to the people. Here, we are in a constant state of very expensive and completely useless war.
[20:43:49] <n1> is true, but it is increasingly less.. some if it goes to cheer-leading that useless war.
[20:44:23] <audioguy> Propaganda is just part of modern war :-)
[20:49:16] <n1> think it always has been
[20:49:59] <audioguy> In my old age I have finally figured out war, after years of looking for any reason or logic.
[20:50:07] <audioguy> It's quite simple:
[20:50:45] <audioguy> When the brakeman has finally worked his way up to Engineer, the first thing he is going to do is blow that train whistle.
[20:51:09] <audioguy> It's the one thing those who seek power above all else can do that no one else can.
[20:54:41] <n1> i think that is the fundamental problem, those that seek power are the least responsible in their use of it
[20:55:38] <audioguy> And that problem, magnified immensely by technology, needs to get solved pretty soonif humans are to survive. We are running out of time.
[21:00:21] <n1> when i was a kid, i used to like technology, after working with it for some years.... a lot more cynical
[21:02:00] <audioguy> The problem as I see it not really technology. It is the ratio of sociopaths and psychopaths in society. In in 100 works out about right for a tribal society, or even a small city state. It is a disaster applied to a world civilization.
[21:02:11] <audioguy> 1 in 100
[21:02:58] <n1> the technology gives the bastards the tools
[21:03:01] <audioguy> You need a few, not TOO pathelogical, becasue they are drivers. But not too many.
[21:03:11] <audioguy> Yes, that is the problem.
[21:03:35] <n1> not saying technology by itself is the problem, but the way we use technology and accept it is an enabler of it
[21:07:17] <n1> in computing, linux might be one of the best things out there, but it's companies like google who have got the biggest rewards
[21:08:30] <audioguy> Anythng that gets too big winds up being taken over by sociopaths. There was a reason the ounders picked 'Do no evil' as the corporate motto, they knoew this could happen.
[21:11:49] <audioguy> There need to be limits on corporate size, AND government size.
[21:12:58] <n1> don't know how that would technically work, since you'd need something of suitable size to enforce those limits
[21:13:31] <n1> it appears to me that both corporations and governments are happy to grow indefinitely, and enable each other in doing so.
[21:13:34] <audioguy> Yes, a real problem. I don't know either.
[21:13:59] <n1> this i don't see changing at all
[21:14:56] <audioguy> There are two approaches, limit organization size, or reduce the number of sociopaths. Sociopath number are very hard to reduce because you would have to be absolutely brutal. Organization size for the reason you mentioned.
[21:16:06] <audioguy> The only path I can see is something like a nuclear war happens, and the horror of it makes people willing to do unthinkable things to avoid another.
[21:16:13] <n1> it requires a cultural shift more than anything to stop enabling the sociopaths
[21:17:17] <audioguy> Yes. Oddly enough religion put some limits on the exercise of absolute power, but I think that cow has left the barn.
[21:17:49] <audioguy> Brutal has been tried, if a sociopath winds up in control you get Stalin.
[21:17:57] <n1> this is what i hope will come of the current political climate... people realize they can't rely on the government any more and it's up to you to build the world you want to live in
[21:18:27] <n1> the government is not going to enact your will, the government doesn't care about you... don't delude yourself in thinking it does and the wheels are turning slowly for your benefit
[21:19:13] <audioguy> I thik that a city state is the largest practical size for humans to retain some control over their government.
[21:19:29] <audioguy> That actually worked pretty well for many years.
[21:19:43] <n1> religious teachings have merit in limiting the power of individuals, but organized religion did away with that before anything else
[21:20:41] <audioguy> Organized religion put SOME limits on monarchys - the Pope crown the king, etc. Christian morals.
[21:20:46] <n1> it's only becoming more obvious that a centralized government acting on behalf of divergent cultural groups is not going to end up acting in the bests interests of the overall population
[21:21:34] <n1> we can have some limits on paper in any system, the enforceability of that is another question
[21:21:55] <audioguy> If the present trend continue, I think we will wind up with a lot of absolute monarchs again. Because when the overall populace gets beaten down enough, they start looking for a savior.
[21:22:23] <audioguy> Rome fell to barbarians because the barbarians offered a better deal, less taxes, less corruption, etc.
[21:22:31] <n1> i think you're probably right but i'm hoping for the opposite conclusion
[21:23:39] <audioguy> In a system as large as the US, there is so much power that sociopaths are strongly atrrracted to it. So you wind up being governmed by them almost exclusively.
[21:24:22] <n1> the US does have such a large system, it's as complex internally as the UK's is externally
[21:24:32] <audioguy> In an absolute monarchy, you have a change of getting an absolutely horrible monarch, but also a chance of getting a good one sometimes.
[21:24:48] <n1> there's some cognitive dissonance there with how the US population deals with it, in my opinion
[21:25:18] <audioguy> A -lot- of congnitive dissonance.
[21:26:29] <audioguy> One intersting thing to me is that in UK, if things ever got to the point you wanted a 'king savior' you have one standing by, ready to roll. :-)
[21:27:10] <audioguy> Imagine a UK king with the skills of Donald Trumpy
[21:27:29] <audioguy> (at manipulating the populace)
[21:27:51] <audioguy> 'Goive me power, I will fix this, then give it up'
[21:27:54] <n1> depends really, even in more pro-royal media, there's some push back against the royals
[21:28:22] <n1> the younger generation of royal can't talk about 'hardships' like the old ones could
[21:28:49] <audioguy> The Romans had an official to-beorarely-used position to 'Dictator' to fix things when they went to far awry.
[21:28:57] <audioguy> Actually worked ok a few times.
[21:29:39] <n1> the UK has 1000 odd years of laws and process to look back on, just pick what bit suits for the moment
[21:29:52] <audioguy> Exactly
[21:30:56] <audioguy> I have also noted a few times when the Lords managed to prevent some of the worst excesses of Parliament.
[21:31:30] <audioguy> Fits my thesis, occasionally the hreditary power gets you something good.
[21:31:41] <n1> which was fine when they were preventing the labour government, but now they're preventing tory policy they need to be reformed
[21:31:47] <audioguy> But here? It is hard to see a way out.
[21:32:13] <audioguy> Well labor probably said the same thing at the time.
[21:32:15] <n1> lords are not hereditary now, they are political appointments for life.
[21:32:52] <n1> so now you get the worst of both systems
[21:32:53] <audioguy> Yes, I thought there were a few left though. At any rate, not having to campaign or be beholden to special intersts.
[21:33:08] <n1> well none of them campaign, thats why they're there
[21:33:20] <n1> they do what they want, but theyve proved themselves capable at that level
[21:33:42] <n1> the hereditary ones are the descendants of the old sociopaths
[21:34:01] <n1> the new ones are the nod for political service to a previous government
[21:34:15] <audioguy> Of coursem but sociopathy is not necessarily hereditary.
[21:34:44] <audioguy> Particularly recently, as I understand.
[21:35:49] <n1> the lords does good work on occasion, but the current gov did a good job of undermining that over the doctors thing
[21:36:33] <audioguy> I keep seing actors get knighted, but I suppose that does not get you to the Lords, correct?
[21:36:48] <audioguy> At least they would be working stiffs.
[21:37:02] <n1> yeah, that's different
[21:37:17] <n1> knighthood makes you a Sir.
[21:37:35] <audioguy> What makes a lord exactly?
[21:38:23] <n1> well it used to be landowners i believe
[21:38:50] <audioguy> A particular title, like 'Baron'?
[21:39:22] <n1> Lord is the title
[21:39:30] <n1> but you might also have some others too
[21:39:31] <audioguy> Just by itself then.
[21:41:31] <n1> seems like you get to be both baron and lord
[21:42:04] <audioguy> I suppose the modern equivalent of a large landowner would the the head of a corporation. Does not solve the problem :-)
[21:43:46] <n1> the biggest companies and most wealthy churches
[21:43:55] <audioguy> You have some laws about campaigning in the UK, right? So they don't turn into the circuses we see here.
[21:44:18] <audioguy> Specific lengths or something.
[21:44:42] <n1> it's different but it's becoming more and more Americanized
[21:44:54] <n1> but i think that's more about how media works
[21:45:18] <audioguy> But our eletions have always been circuses, since the 1800s at least.
[21:45:43] <audioguy> Of corse, our press has alway sbeen very political too, so maybe related.
[21:47:08] <n1> there's a more formal veneer over political proceedings and elections in the UK, it tries to portray the fairly quaint nostalgic image of the UK
[21:48:01] <audioguy> Yes, I think that is culture. We see a bit of that here in our actual senate but that stops at the Senate doors.
[21:49:02] <audioguy> Unfortunately our quaint part had to do with a revolution :-)
[21:50:02] <n1> but what it does mean a lot of the time is, apart from the little jokes they throw out, it's mostly well educated people being incredibly polite to each other
[21:50:43] <audioguy> The sign of a gentleman.
[21:51:28] <n1> ive watched sessions in the lords where someone brings up a long winded but valid point, and the other side responds with 'z will be accounted for and discussed in relation to x y in a future session or report'
[21:51:32] <audioguy> Our 'quant' history involves hating 'gentlemen' :-)
[21:51:42] <n1> went on for what felt like an hour, but no questions were answered at all
[21:52:11] <audioguy> We have Senate speeches like that.
[21:52:33] <n1> i'm probably being generous on the phrasing
[21:53:00] <audioguy> In fact, come to think of it, any politician speking rarely answers any quesion in any coherent way. ;-)
[21:53:30] <n1> the art was mastered in the UK
[21:55:50] <audioguy> You have had longer to practice.
[21:57:00] <n1> and we can rely on old Shakespearian english and the formal process to make our long and convoluted points that go nowhere... just like the old days when (i think) the laws and such were written in latin so the poor couldn't understand.
[21:57:05] <n1> could be wrong on that
[21:57:51] <audioguy> Heck, no need for Latin, ever try to read Old English?
[21:58:15] <n1> actually i think that might have been the bible
[21:58:27] <n1> but you get my point
[21:58:33] <audioguy> Yep
[21:59:45] <n1> i'm about to go to the shop... but i'll leave you with this... "for a slave to ask for their freedom, they have to learn the language of the slave master"
[21:59:56] <audioguy> Good one!
[22:00:19] <audioguy> Later
[22:00:31] * n1 hat tip
[22:00:34] <n1> thanks for the chat :D
[22:00:54] <audioguy> Much fun. This stuff make Soylent worthwhile for me.
[22:01:26] -!- charon [charon!~0c0959f3@Soylent/Staff/Editor/charon] has joined #editorial
[22:01:26] -!- mode/#editorial [+v charon] by Hephaestus
[22:19:43] -!- caffeine [caffeine!~andrew@101.175.lh.in] has joined #editorial
[22:28:22] <charon> hiyo #editorial
[22:35:25] <n1> ahoy
[22:42:57] <charon> howdy do?
[22:44:10] <n1> quiet day today, been raining all afternoon
[22:44:19] <n1> how are things for you?
[22:45:07] <charon> decent. at work, and it's finally quieting down for the evening.
[22:45:39] <charon> maybe a few more customers will straggle in and then i close up shop
[22:47:30] <n1> serious thunder now
[22:48:08] <n1> if i recall you said the other day that you work at a car rental place?
[22:49:01] <charon> not cars. it's all kinds of tools. from carpet cleaners to jackhammers
[22:49:18] <n1> ah ok
[22:49:32] <n1> i'd assume it would be a quiet weekend for you, but perhaps not?
[22:49:40] <charon> trucks too, but for moving cargo short term
[22:50:09] <charon> yes. we don't get hit by Black Friday the way the merchandise side of the store does
[22:51:08] <n1> i need to book another rental car soon :(
[22:51:24] <charon> your chinese wonder shook itself to pieces?
[22:52:12] <n1> almost did today, but i'm thinking for my return here in a couple months
[22:52:27] <n1> if i leave it too late, prices will go up a lot
[22:53:43] <charon> i know it's nice to have the freedom, but do you really need a car at all? are there not trains and busses?
[22:54:00] <charon> and taxis when you're in a city
[22:54:53] <n1> of course you can survive without one, but i'd have to plan more carefully and would take a lot longer to get around
[22:56:28] <n1> im working on being out in the country, not in the city as much as possible
[22:57:47] <charon> i took one trip to costa rica when i was around 20, so discomfort didn't bother me as much. my friend and i took chicken busses and hitch-hiked. but yes, we did have to plan a fair bit to get places
[22:59:27] <n1> the freedom and flexibility is important, if things continue as they are, i'll buy a car
[23:51:56] <charon> you still around, n1?
[23:52:28] <n1> aye
[23:53:28] <charon> if you have a minute, could you glance at story sub #3? i put an ed note on it, want someone to let me know if that's acceptable
[23:57:22] <n1> the NODAPL story?