#editorial | Logs for 2016-09-19

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[10:35:18] * Bytram updated alcohol / pot story which had two bad 'links' copied verbatim from <em>The Intercept</em> :(
[10:35:45] * Bytram updated emacs story -- it seems that Windows binaries are now available -- noted same and added links
[10:38:36] <Bytram> NCommander: I was about to take another pass at your novel, but see that you are in it atm... let me know when it is safe to dive in. =)
[10:39:09] <NCommander> Bytram, I noticed a small code snippit got deleted or never placed so I put it back
[10:39:29] <Bytram> excellent!
[10:39:44] <Bytram> that you found and fixed it, not that it got deleted!
[10:40:30] <Bytram> On further thought, I think it is worth splitting the story into two parts. Move the VM stuff and following into 'Part 3'
[10:42:03] <Bytram> and, a short bit explaining the differences between the stack and the heap would be useful to help provide context for the non-programmers (also that the stack "grows downward" -- not obvious to most folks =)
[10:42:52] <Bytram> NCommander: is it safe to edit the story now?
[10:42:59] <NCommander> Bytram, go for it
[10:43:24] <Bytram> btw, I need to be at work in 2 hours... may be best to release the story tomorrow? I'll have time this evening to look it over some more.
[10:43:27] <Bytram> k
[10:51:54] <Bytram> NCommander: I've pushed the story out until 2016-09-20 @ 11:55 UTC ...
[10:52:12] <NCommander> Bytram, you didn't finish editing it?
[10:52:16] <Bytram> I gotta say, it's a really impressive work
[10:52:20] <NCommander> Bytram, thanks
[10:52:28] <Bytram> remember how we talked about splitting it up?
[10:52:42] <Bytram> I like your suggestion to do so at "TSRs In Action"
[10:53:09] <Bytram> if you could make a new submission, "Part 3" and move the stuff there, that will maintain your authorship...
[10:53:29] <Bytram> and get it down to a bit more mangable size
[10:54:35] <Bytram> I think the story would benefit with a short exposition on the difference between "stack" and "heap" --- what they are and why each is used.
[10:54:57] <NCommander> Bytram, I think from a practical perspective, the article looses something if there's no payoff between explination and theory
[10:55:08] <Bytram> lastly, one non-obvious thing was how the stack 'grows' *downward* in memory.
[10:55:24] <Bytram> yes, that is a good point.
[10:55:48] <Bytram> whereas, for example, a stack of pancakes grows 'up'
[10:57:22] <NCommander> Bytram, I rather dedicate a section to it in the next article, since we're going to talk about actual memory management then since the next article will have our proof of concept keylogger
[10:57:45] <Bytram> oh? Kewel!
[10:58:48] <NCommander> Bytram, yeah, the proof of concept will also introduce serial port operations
[10:59:12] <Bytram> is early today, /me could use some cereal
[10:59:23] <Bytram> =)
[10:59:27] <chromas> rehash needs a Series feature
[10:59:37] <NCommander> chromas, it had one, but was deleted due to missing code
[10:59:40] <chromas> So you can group these up and make it convenient to find the other articles
[10:59:42] <chromas> aw
[10:59:44] <NCommander> Bytram, sp and the register itself is decremented by the size. In contrast, deleting an item from the stack simply increments sp allowing new information to override the old.
[10:59:44] <NCommander> - formatting here needs to befixed
[10:59:48] <Bytram> so, along the lines of setting up/handling 9600n81
[11:00:02] <NCommander> chromas, it does show up in related articles in the bottom
[11:00:07] <NCommander> Bytram, bingo.
[11:00:11] <Bytram> =)
[11:00:36] <Bytram> sadly, I suspect that little string of chars would be lost on most programmers these days. :(
[11:00:48] * Bytram goes to look at formatting
[11:01:23] <chromas> Will there be an explanation as to why the stack is downside up?
[11:01:41] <chromas> (inquiring minds want to know)
[11:05:20] <Bytram> because, IIRC, there was already something (code?) growing up from low memory, so instead of setting an (arbitrary) starting point and growing up, they picked top-of-memory and decided to 'grow down' -- I could be way off on that, but that's what I seem to recall.
[11:05:44] <chromas> Neat
[11:05:54] <chromas> does that mean the heap is in the middle and goes both ways? ;)
[11:06:09] <NCommander> chromas, it's mostly just a choice Intel made. Due to memory constrains, you need to have the heap and stack in the same small chunk of memory. By placing them at opposite ends, you could make life much easier for everyone else.
[11:06:34] <NCommander> chromas, there are architectures where the stack goes up, and some *real* oddballs like Itanium actually has the stack grow in two directions from a common base point
[11:07:04] <NCommander> (in Itanium, you have the primary stack, and the register backing stack)
[11:07:18] <Bytram> ugh.
[11:08:08] <NCommander> Funny enough, Itanium actually doesn't have an absolute addressing mode, so internally it also has near and far calls
[11:08:20] <NCommander> (Someone at Intel must be paid a bonus for implementing that feature)
[11:08:46] <NCommander> A near call on Itanium is when you directly know the necessary offset. A far call is when you need to dereference the global pointer to get the final offset
[11:09:09] <Bytram> ah... I see what happened.
[11:09:26] <NCommander> I *won't* mind doing a second series on Itanium
[11:09:40] <NCommander> But the platform is an absolute mindfuck. Registers are 65-bits wide, and opcodes are 41-bits wide.
[11:09:50] <chromas> Soon you'll have a whole backlog of novels to write :D
[11:10:11] <NCommander> On each clock cycle, the processor runs three opcodes at once based on bundles which have to fit into a template. The calling convention is fucking insane since involves register sliding
[11:10:28] <NCommander> (SPARC did something similar, but SPARC's register windows are at least understanable by mortals)
[11:11:12] <NCommander> But basically, when you do a function call on Itanium, registers above r16 slide down. So r17 becomes r33, etc depending on the call frame. If you run out of registers, they automatically get popped out of the processing and onto the backing cache
[11:11:18] <Bytram> NCommander: just because YOU can understand it, does not necessarily mean that other (mortals) can! =)
[11:11:35] <NCommander> Bytram, I *barely* do, and that's because I've done EFI work on Itanium
[11:11:43] <Bytram> ouch.
[11:11:52] <Bytram> NCommander++
[11:11:53] <Bender> karma - ncommander: 2
[11:12:02] <chromas> EFI--
[11:12:02] <Bender> karma - efi: -1
[11:12:09] <NCommander> (U)EFI is far better than BIOS
[11:12:13] <NCommander> You can use it in protected mode
[11:12:27] <chromas> couldn't they just 'port' bios to protected mode?
[11:12:55] <chromas> I haven't done much with EFI but it seems like it would fit right in with freedesktop.org projects
[11:13:04] <chromas> The systemd of firmware ;)
[11:13:18] <Bytram> NCommander: looking for a consistent naming convention for the story... sp, bp, register names, etc. should they always be uppercase?
[11:13:41] <NCommander> Bytram, yes. I don't do it in code due to preference, but it makes them help stand out. Older assemblers like MASM uses upper case as a convention
[11:13:46] <NCommander> chromas, well, you'd need to basically have BIOS twice for the 80286 since the real mode->protected mode switch was basically one way.
[11:14:12] <NCommander> The only way to do go from protected mode to real mode on 80286 was to reset the processor. There was a pin on the abused keyboard controller that did just that.
[11:14:20] <chromas> Isn't it about time they made protected mode the default?
[11:14:25] <NCommander> chromas, it became moot on the 80386 because of virtual 8086 mode
[11:14:56] <NCommander> chromas, it is on UEFI systems. The processor enters protected mode with an identity memory map
[11:15:03] <Bytram> NCommander: ok, I was seeing it in uppercase-only and then other places lowercase (e.g. 'sp' atm) and was wondering if that was intentional... So far, I've been flagging such references like this: <tt>sp</tt>
[11:15:13] <Bytram> and will now try and make them <tt>SP</tt>
[11:15:25] <NCommander> Bytram, if its in text, mark it in upper case, if its in code, lower case is fine
[11:15:40] <Bytram> got it! thanks for the clarification!
[11:15:53] <NCommander> chromas, techinically the processor still comes out of reset in real mode at F000:0800 (I think), and UEFI switched to protected mode
[11:15:58] <chromas> Make them all links to wiki pages
[11:16:10] <chromas> Or use <acronym> :D
[11:16:18] <chromas> extra_work++
[11:16:18] <Bender> karma - extra_work: 1
[11:16:42] <NCommander> I'd very much like this to go live today
[11:16:59] <Bytram> NCommander: mentioned in the story text: "retf" instruction... <tt>retf</tt> or <tt>RETF</tt>
[11:17:33] <Bytram> context: Far calls are made by the "call far" instruction, and require the called function to use the "retf" instruction to indicate they need to return far.
[11:18:22] <NCommander> Bytram, probably upper case to make them stand out. I'm really not sure what the best convention is.
[11:19:51] <Bytram> nod nod... we'll just pick one and run with it. I'd suggest that any reference to instructions or registers should be called out as uppercase as teletype text, ala: <tt>FOO</tt>
[11:20:04] <Bytram> is what I'm going to run with and we'll see how that plays out.
[11:20:53] <Bytram> but, thinkgs like RAM, UMA (upper memory area), TSR, being not specific to the machine architecture, will leave as just plain text.
[11:21:06] <NCommander> Probably
[11:21:11] <NCommander> Consistency is important
[11:21:19] <Bytram> for sure!
[11:22:01] <Bytram> "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of simple minds." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson ... but there ARE consistencies which are NOT foolish!
[11:31:21] <Bytram> NCommander: TNC ??
[11:31:52] <NCommander> Bytram, it's a way to connect ham radio gear to a PC. Anyone who knows AX.25 will know what TNC means
[11:32:04] <NCommander> (Terminal-Node Connector)
[11:32:30] <Bytram> got it... though *they* might knwo what it is, I'm still thinking of other readers...
[11:37:48] <NCommander> Bytram, feel free to edit. It looks like my bullet points got lost at some point
[11:42:44] * Bytram dreams of having "change history" of edits on stories
[11:44:20] <chromas> Just replace rehash with a list of links to articles published in the wiki
[11:46:21] * Bytram does a quick scan of article looking for obvious formatting errors
[11:46:38] * Bytram clicks save so that there is a copy on the server of the changes I've made so far.
[11:47:38] <Bytram> NCommander: I need to get cleaned up and ready to head out to work... will make another pass over it tonight.
[11:47:59] <NCommander> Bytram, fair enough, *sigh*, I dislike pushing this back
[11:48:52] <takyon> hi
[11:49:08] <Bytram> I feel the same way... I completely ran out of energy last night and can't justify skipping work to get it out this AM. (much as I would rather do THIS!)
[11:49:12] <Bytram> takyon: HI!
[11:49:59] * chromas volunteers takyon to take over the story ;)
[11:50:09] <Bytram> takyon: would appreciate it if you could take a look over NC's story and see if all references to things like SP, BP, register names, etc. are ALL UPPERCASE and bracketed with teletype formatting, like: <TT>BP</tt>
[11:50:24] <takyon> anything else
[11:51:20] <Bytram> For the most part, I think that all acronyms are explained, but keep an eye out for any that slipped through the cracks. Am trying to use a convention like:
[11:51:31] <Bytram> Terminate and Stay Resident (TSR) programs ...
[11:51:42] <Bytram> pretty sure I missed a couple.
[11:52:06] <takyon> what time does NCommander want the story to run
[11:52:18] <Bytram> now. =)
[11:52:35] <takyon> how about 14:00
[11:52:44] <NCommander> takyon, sometime this mroning if possible though this afternoon is an option
[11:53:49] <takyon> wow, this is longer than my drug articles
[11:54:13] <Bytram> takyon: to check the use of <tt>foo</tt>, I find it helpful to use firebug and define a style: tt {background-color: #fee;}
[11:55:14] * Bytram just noticed that in "The Stack and Calling Conventions" there are 3 places where sp should be SP (i.e. uppercased)
[11:55:41] <takyon> does something like "int 21h" need to be uppercase?
[11:55:49] <Bytram> I don't think so...
[11:55:53] <Bytram> NCommander: ^^^
[11:56:28] <takyon> does "fml" need to be uppercase? <- JOKE ALERT
[11:56:39] <NCommander> takyon, no. Anything that's code/blockquotes should be left as is. Interrupts should probably end in XXh to mark hex or 0xFF
[11:57:45] <Bytram> takyon: ^^^ There's prolly some of the XXh ones that need the appended 'h'
[11:58:19] <Bytram> NOTE: that is strictly in reference to text of the articles -- things in the blockquote/pre stuff should remain as-is
[11:59:11] <Bytram> takyon: oops. Just noticed that in "Upper/Reserved", there is a sentence with two subordinate 'but," clauses.
[11:59:47] <Bytram> NCommander: refences to "A20" ... should be <tt>A20</tt> right?
[12:00:30] <NCommander> Bytram, no, proper noun.
[12:00:33] <Bytram> k
[12:00:46] <NCommander> Bytram, takyon thanks for the help
[12:00:56] <Bytram> ok, really gtg get ready to go to work... will check back in before I leave.
[12:00:59] <Bytram> takyon++
[12:00:59] <Bender> karma - takyon: 39
[12:01:04] <takyon> I haven't done much
[12:01:09] <Bytram> yet
[12:01:11] <Bytram> =)
[12:02:34] <takyon> looks like some crap apostrophe use "Baofeng UV-82's" "Baofeng's"
[12:04:01] <takyon> updated
[12:09:44] <takyon> i have to go to the post office. i'll take a look at it again when i come back
[12:32:48] <NCommander> Memory Type Total Used Free
[12:32:48] <NCommander> ---------------- -------- -------- --------
[12:32:48] <NCommander> Conventional 639K 50K 589K
[12:32:48] <NCommander> Upper 36K 31K 5K
[12:32:50] <NCommander> Reserved 349K 349K 0K
[12:32:50] <NCommander> Extended (XMS) 31,680K 5,626K 26,054K
[12:32:52] <NCommander> ---------------- -------- -------- --------
[12:32:56] <NCommander> ^- takyon Bytram this got fucked up
[12:33:13] <NCommander> these were all right :/
[12:38:28] zz_janrinok is now known as janrinok
[12:38:39] <Bytram> I thnk I got 'em
[12:38:39] <Bytram> hold on
[12:39:32] * Bytram clicks preview
[12:41:24] <Bytram> fixed!
[12:41:24] <Bytram> and updated.
[12:41:24] <Bytram> reallyy gtg!
[12:41:27] Bytram is now known as Bytram|away
[12:41:41] <janrinok> Any eds here?
[12:42:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> janrinok, cmn32480 was here a minute ago
[12:42:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> and Bytram|away just left
[12:42:48] <janrinok> I'm editing the bombing story, and takyon makes a reference to "BBs and ball bearings". In the UK, BBs _are_ ball bearings. What else does BB stand for?
[12:42:56] <cmn32480> I'm here... but not HERE
[12:43:35] <cmn32480> a BB is a small copper ball bearing type projectile normally used in a pump or compress air powered gun
[12:43:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> honestly, i don't think it's an acronym anymore. it's a .177 caliber metal ball for firing from air guns
[12:43:57] <cmn32480> what he said ^^
[12:44:04] <janrinok> perhaps not in the US, but elsewhere that is what a BB is ...
[12:44:11] <janrinok> a BB gun fires ball bearings
[12:44:25] <cmn32480> they pretty much ARE ball bearings
[12:44:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> they could have been once upon a time but i think the acronym is apocryphal now
[12:44:40] <cmn32480> [/me never wondered what it stood for
[12:44:59] <cmn32480> ~define APOCRYPHAL
[12:45:00] <exec> [urbandictionary] 03Apocryphal: of doubtful authenticity or spurious. Something which is talked about but does not materialise, or it does not exsist
[12:45:08] <janrinok> TheMightyBuzzard, maybe in the US, but I found it confusing ;)
[12:46:24] <cmn32480> I'd suggest using TheMightyBuzzard 's definition from above as a note in the story
[12:47:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> the ones they make for shooting in bb guns nowadays would be garbage as ball bearings. copper n zinc don't wear worth a damn.
[12:48:11] <cmn32480> well.. if yhou string enough of them together, you can probably make a shirt or somethign out of them
[12:49:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> you'd need to drill holes and thread them. solder wouldn't make for a very comfortable pair of skivvies
[12:50:00] <janrinok> and very pretty you would look too, I'm sure
[12:50:00] <cmn32480> i was thinking a modified chain mail or something...
[12:50:22] <cmn32480> make a little pocket out of 3 pieces of the chain, then compress to keep the BB in
[12:50:34] <cmn32480> I always look pretty.
[12:50:46] <cmn32480> and I'll thakn you not to be insutling about it!
[12:51:07] <janrinok> if chain mail is made of chain, is email made of 'e'? If so, how can it be worth so much on the streets?
[12:55:20] <cmn32480> chain mail is kinda like a chain letter... on valuable if the asshole who started it pays out
[12:55:49] <janrinok> ah, that makes it _much_ clearer then...
[12:55:53] <cmn32480> good
[12:56:03] <cmn32480> gald I could toss a little more mud in the water for you
[12:56:49] <janrinok> I'm beginning to suspect that you naturally type in ROT13 ...
[12:58:25] <cmn32480> ~define ROT13
[12:58:27] <exec> [urbandictionary] 03ROT13: Used for obscuring text by replacing each letter with the letter thirteen places down the alphabet. A becomes N, B becomes O and so on. This is used in online forums as a means of hiding joke punchlin...
[12:59:37] <janrinok> have you just discovered the ~define function that I thick someone was working on this last weekend?
[12:59:56] <janrinok> think? damn, I've caught it from cmn32480
[13:00:11] <cmn32480> nah ~define has been 'round forever
[13:00:20] <cmn32480> crutchy has been working on the wikidisaster
[13:00:38] <cmn32480> trying to unscrewup exec from the 1.24 to 1.27 wiki upgrade
[13:00:54] <janrinok> Bytram|away, moved NC's story, and left a gap in the queue. I've just pushed out another ...
[13:02:13] <cmn32480> sorry.. am rather useless atm
[13:02:43] <janrinok> atm - why specify atm in particular? :)
[13:02:48] <cmn32480> ZING
[13:03:13] <janrinok> are you still editing that Borneo loggers story?
[13:03:18] <cmn32480> no
[13:03:21] <janrinok> k
[13:03:30] <cmn32480> got grabbed for somethign at my actual day job
[13:03:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> ~define-add atm, ass-to-mouth
[13:03:32] <exec> definition for term "atm" set to "ass-to-mouth"
[13:03:49] <cmn32480> wonderful
[13:03:55] <janrinok> lol, amongst other meanings
[13:04:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> ~define farticle
[13:04:18] <exec> [local] farticle: What you call one tiny bubble out of all the bubbles when you fart in the tub.
[13:05:22] <cmn32480> somebody beat you to it
[13:08:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, that was straight from the roomie's girl child back when she was six or seven
[13:08:38] <cmn32480> glad you are helping bring her up as a lady...
[13:08:56] <cmn32480> though she'll prolly be a lot less fun that way
[13:23:22] <takyon> I just supported the Musky/Round Earth Hoax by buying Juno and New Horizons stamps
[13:31:05] <takyon> any particular reason that Breaking News was taken off the terror story?
[13:31:28] <cmn32480> it's 2 days old?
[13:31:47] <janrinok> it was already out on this site so it didn't serve any purpose
[13:31:49] <takyon> not the article I posted. it had details that were 2 hours old I think
[13:32:06] <takyon> whatever the case, I just added an update from the NYT
[13:32:56] <takyon> i'm going to see if I can beef up the Russian tank submission
[13:32:56] <janrinok> update not seen here yet
[13:33:00] <takyon> hit Edit
[13:33:06] <janrinok> I have#
[13:38:22] <takyon> I've prettied up the tank sub but I'm going to look on NextBigFuture for some additional material
[13:38:36] <takyon> they publish junk about new military tanks/jets/whatever all the time
[13:39:31] <janrinok> takyon, there is quite a lot in Wiki too
[13:51:52] * NCommander is back
[13:52:53] <takyon> still looking at war stuff
[13:53:01] <janrinok> yipee, welcome back !
[13:57:37] <NCommander> takyon, Bytram|away cmn32480: the "mem" stuff is still messed up. See the scree shot above. I can edit it if no one else is
[13:58:00] <takyon> do it
[14:02:23] <takyon> ok, added a substantial addition to the tank article
[14:10:42] <janrinok> Takyon - much of that video is not T-14.
[14:14:25] <janrinok> anything with a fume extractor on the barrel is something else entirely
[14:17:09] * NCommander exhales and blahs
[14:18:02] * cmn32480 agrees w/ NCommander
[14:18:19] <NCommander> I'm not sure what else was needing editing
[14:18:36] <cmn32480> you can do my schedule, if you'ld like.
[14:18:43] <cmn32480> just make sure it is mostly deletions
[14:27:12] <NCommander> cmn32480, ?
[14:29:44] <cmn32480> my schedule... please delete as much as you want out of it.
[14:30:00] <cmn32480> you can edit my schedule... please
[14:57:45] <janrinok> Anyone available to 2nd ed the stories currently going out please?
[15:02:59] <cmn32480> soon as I can I will
[16:52:11] <janrinok> Anyone available to 2nd ed the stories currently going out please?
[16:54:27] <cmn32480> working on them
[17:42:27] <cmn32480> sorry janrinok we had a couple people call out sick today... and I'm doing double/triple doody w/ a busted ankle...
[17:42:31] * cmn32480 needs a nap!
[17:42:42] <janrinok> np
[17:42:51] <cmn32480> so can I?
[17:43:00] <janrinok> yes, at least 10 minutes
[17:43:05] <cmn32480> WOO HOO!
[17:43:08] <cmn32480> Thanks Dad!
[17:43:15] <janrinok> ... at 2100 tonight
[17:43:20] <cmn32480> bugger
[17:43:27] <janrinok> er, no thanks
[17:43:31] <cmn32480> is that your time or mine?
[17:43:38] <janrinok> have 5 minutes now then
[17:43:45] <cmn32480> ~time UTC
[17:43:47] <exec> Monday, 19 September 2016 @ 5:43 pm UTC - Coordinated Universal Time
[17:43:48] <janrinok> and another 5 immediately after
[17:43:56] <cmn32480> zzzzzzzzzzzz
[17:49:18] <cmn32480> ok
[17:49:22] <cmn32480> I'm back awake
[17:54:37] <janrinok> that was only 5 minutes - I said you could have another 5 after that one finished
[17:55:10] <cmn32480> I was gonna save that extra 5 for an hour from now!
[17:55:20] <janrinok> fill yer boots!
[18:52:49] <janrinok> gtg - back on tomorrow I guess
[18:53:15] <cmn32480> ~gnight janrinok
[18:53:17] * exec single-candidly writes a fanfic featuring a stein of wasabi gummy fish about janrinok
[18:53:24] <janrinok> ~gnight cmn32480
[18:53:25] <cmn32480> sleep well
[18:53:27] * exec slowly penetrates an assload of various cheeses with cmn32480
[18:53:36] <janrinok> Oh, I won that one I think
[18:53:59] <janrinok> give my best to J, and don't let the kids kick your ankle too often
[18:54:14] <cmn32480> I try they are quick little rugrats thoug
[18:54:20] <cmn32480> my best to S
[18:54:28] <janrinok> will do, bye
[18:54:29] <cmn32480> and Trapper John
[18:54:40] <janrinok> lol - it's just finishing
[18:55:05] <cmn32480> oh good.. so she is still awake
[18:55:12] <cmn32480> maybe
[18:55:20] <cmn32480> anyway
[18:55:22] <cmn32480> get some rest
[18:55:22] janrinok is now known as zz_janrinok
[23:50:17] Bytram|away is now known as Bytram