#editorial | Logs for 2014-04-27
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[21:57:52] <janrinok> cheers nick
[21:57:46] <n1> take care :)
[21:57:32] <janrinok> lol - on that note I leave you to your evening and your neighbours.....
[21:56:52] <n1> heh, where I come from is damn close to where the queen lives. as a result, my english is perfect ;)
[21:56:30] <janrinok> Yes, likewise, a very pleasant evening. Take care and hope work goes well tomorrow. No doubt see you around here sometime...
[21:55:43] <janrinok> 'where I come from, they all talk like this....'
[21:55:43] <n1> :) good chatting as always - i'll be putting another 3 or 4 stories up before I call it a night.
[21:55:10] <janrinok> Yes, it's funny when people just want to hear you speak. They always say 'but your accent' and I reply' I haven't got one - you have!'
[21:54:29] <janrinok> I think Soph has just settled for the night, I'll be going soon
[21:54:20] <n1> couldn't understand it though, spoke too fast for them.
[21:54:13] <n1> when I was in the US, in a very untouristy location, people just wanted to hear me talk, they found my accent amazing
[21:53:09] <n1> that's it, it can be quite a surprise!
[21:52:33] <janrinok> yep, that would take some getting used to if you had a mental voice that you have 'heard' for years
[21:51:45] <n1> and i couldn't ignore the accent, a very southern accent which you can't read on IRC.
[21:51:08] <janrinok> lol
[21:50:56] <n1> it can be quite a change, someone i'd known online for many years via IRC, one day we had a conversation on skype
[21:49:54] <janrinok> I hadn't tried to imagine the accents of people on here - they must be many and varied
[21:49:46] <n1> some of the northern accents do certainly take some careful listening
[21:49:18] <n1> and my 'normal' speech is probably somewhere between the two
[21:49:09] <n1> I'm just as good at more formal english as 'london geezer' english
[21:48:21] <janrinok> I can still struggle with Geordie and Glaswegian though.....
[21:47:48] <n1> I know my speech adjusts depending on the social situation
[21:47:15] <janrinok> Oh I can speak broad Lancashire if I want to!
[21:47:06] <n1> I totally agree, getting the message across is the most important thing.
[21:46:37] <n1> and the regional variations in spoken language never disappeared, which how that gets ignored is beyond me.
[21:46:16] <janrinok> As long as communication is clear I don't get too excited about it. But when people are unable to communicate effectively, then they cause problems for others. That doesn't mean they have to speak a certain way or up to a certain standard, just clearly and using words that everyone being spoken to will understand.
[21:45:12] <n1> because it's filtered down and obviously diluting as time goes on, with more liberal schooling and society.
[21:44:30] <n1> just a thought, it seems logical to me and explains why the older you are the more likely you are to see the 'rights and wrongs' of how people use the language.
[21:43:21] <janrinok> you could well be right - I hadn't thought of it like that!
[21:42:49] <janrinok> I shouldn't Stumble when its getting near to my bed time. I find facinating topics that absorb me for hours!
[21:42:49] <n1> I'm wondering if it's a generational thing, the strict rules of english came in with the strict schooling in early 20th century britain. english has always been evolving and changing, but that would be too complicated for schooling, so they made the decision on the one true way... the english language itself just kept evolving though.
[21:41:07] <janrinok> teh world will catch up one day....
[21:40:53] <n1> yup
[21:40:46] <janrinok> well we have here. I wrote the wiki piece on it earlier last week. Either is correct as long as it is consistent throughout the document
[21:40:40] <n1> color vs colour, center vs centre as long as the meaning isn't lost, it shouldn't matter at this point.
[21:39:49] <n1> i'd be happy if we just decided both are fine and people should pay attention to context.
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[21:38:58] <janrinok> no its getting worse. Films and TV are mixing it up quite a lot
[21:38:27] <n1> id have thought, over the years it would have fixed itself, but no
[21:36:50] <janrinok> lol - that the same for us all
[21:36:22] <n1> and my brain often stalls for a second with the crisps/chips/fries situation
[21:36:04] <n1> quite
[21:35:49] <janrinok> well it would raise a few eyebrowse depending on context
[21:32:59] <n1> Similar with American wording, it's just easier to go native. Which isn't always ideal when you forget you're not talking to an American and use the word 'pants' for trousers.
[21:31:24] <n1> it's easier to adapt to the local dialect than try and force understanding of your own.
[21:29:55] <janrinok> lol
[21:29:47] <n1> i properly integrated into the local community while i was there, came back with an aussie accent.
[21:29:30] <n1> i spent the majority of my time(several months) in Melbourne, but I was in Sydney for a couple of weeks too.
[21:29:08] <janrinok> whereabouts in aus?
[21:28:50] <janrinok> not been there either (Nepal) although I have worked alongside the Ghurka, of course.
[21:28:22] <n1> NZ is supposed to be beautiful, I missed the opportunity when I was in Australia, but I don't regret it as I had such a great time anyway.
[21:27:51] <n1> it'd like to go to Nepal
[21:27:39] <janrinok> Soph would like to go back to NZ where she went as a child.
[21:27:13] <n1> I have memories of both, even though i was quite young at the time, just makes me want to experience it again now i'm old enough to fully appreciate.
[21:26:38] <janrinok> yes, I'd fancy both of those.
[21:26:36] <n1> but i'm yet to set foot in South America
[21:26:22] <n1> places like Kenya and Cuba
[21:26:09] <n1> some of the places, i've already been, but I was too young to appreciate and with the family
[21:24:58] <janrinok> where would you want to go that you haven't been to?
[21:24:57] <n1> well, it sounds like you got to see more than most people when you could.
[21:24:28] <janrinok> so would we - but travel is somewhat curtailled nowadays ;-)
[21:24:17] <n1> even the holiday destinations, if you're not a tourist, they become very different worlds.
[21:23:24] <n1> i'd like to work around the world more, see different cultures from different perspectives
[21:21:57] <janrinok> yep, we're a good match
[21:21:36] <janrinok> She's been places many people just watch on TV, and not for holiday destinations either.
[21:21:32] <n1> well it was all worth it just for that then
[21:21:07] <janrinok> I met Soph in Germany on an RAF station.
[21:20:54] <n1> sure
[21:20:39] <n1> yeah, submarines are 'progress' on that front, but they don't really have the cool factor that planes do
[21:20:37] <janrinok> That's the bit I can tell you about here - wait until we share those beers.
[21:20:04] <n1> thats good, and by the sounds of it you did the work to earn that pension
[21:19:52] <janrinok> well the Vulcan had come to the end of its viable life, and manned bombers are expensive. The submarine fleet had to be built instead but it can deploy more warheads and with a better prospect of survival so it was the obvious way to go.
[21:19:48] <n1> military service is a vocation i'm not cut out for
[21:18:22] <janrinok> still does, it's not a bad pension
[21:18:18] <n1> submarines arn't as cool as bombers also ;)
[21:18:00] <janrinok> it paid the rent, as they say
[21:17:47] <n1> wow, that's rather impressive!
[21:16:59] <janrinok> in the late 70's I flew nuclear bombers (Vulcan B2s) but moved into other fields when the nuclear weapons were transferred to submarines.
[21:16:48] <n1> and indeed, the details about 'names' are far less important to not important at all
[21:16:35] <n1> but thats a whole different organization and command structure i'm sure
[21:16:18] <n1> i thought you said RAF before but wasn't sure
[21:15:51] <janrinok> military - both RAF and Army
[21:15:33] <n1> thats a very different thing, in the army(?)
[21:14:55] <n1> as we'll still only have to prepare one set of accounts, do one set of payroll etc
[21:14:40] <n1> and it keeps the fixed costs down
[21:14:30] <n1> originally we were going to set up a new company for another venture, but as things progress it's looking like a better option to not complicate things even more
[21:14:23] <janrinok> commanded over 100 men and women who were being shot at - but you don't tend to worry about the bits and bobs of company names and things...
[21:13:53] <n1> ultimately i defer these things to my business partner, as the legal stuff is his responsibility
[21:13:26] <n1> and you're better off for it!
[21:13:09] <janrinok> you can probably work out that I've never run a business.....
[21:12:37] <n1> thanks for the thought though
[21:12:28] <n1> we're not really going to harm ourselves by changing the name, as we're keeping the brand and on good terms with our existing customers
[21:12:26] <janrinok> ah, well, it's the best that I could come up with.
[21:12:06] <n1> it is possible, but it's the costs and complications involved are not really worth it
[21:07:53] <janrinok> ^^^
[21:07:51] <n1> on the phone
[21:07:45] <n1> back now
[20:52:08] <janrinok> Just a thought?!
[20:51:59] <janrinok> If anything it looks like someone else could see the value in your current company and absorbed it.
[20:51:06] <janrinok> I have had a thought. Imagine you create a new company with the name that you want. Then make your existing company a 'Division' of the larger company e.g xyz company, part of the Security Division of NewName company. The way you could continue (I think) with your existing name but create new 'divisions' to meet future unforeseen needs. Is that at all practical, possible and/or legal?
[20:30:16] <n1> no worries
[20:30:01] <n1> i'm going to run to tesco, so i'll be back in a few.
[20:30:01] <janrinok> sorry Soph calls
[20:29:45] <janrinok> brb 5 mins
[20:29:43] <n1> it's more likely to be something stupidly vague like N1 Services, as an example.
[20:29:41] <janrinok> that does make it tricky!
[20:29:21] <n1> more generic than anything, because some of the stuff we do isn't related at all to the 'security'
[20:28:58] <janrinok> So you would prefer a more generic name within you field of expertise.
[20:28:49] <n1> so it just looks messy and unprofessional
[20:28:45] <n1> with the Trading As, you have to have the proper name on the website, and the billing goes through the ltd name.
[20:28:15] <janrinok> understood.
[20:28:06] <n1> but it's not quite so easy when trying to convince people you're the right person to do x, when you company name says you do y.
[20:27:45] <n1> we've done different things, but always with people we already have a business relationship with.
[20:27:44] <janrinok> we learn most from our mistakes. Learning and then moving on is what separates the achievers from the others.
[20:27:06] <n1> need a more vague 'services' style name.
[20:26:57] <janrinok> its that hindsight thing again.....
[20:26:53] <n1> I dropped the ball and didn't think about it properly
[20:26:39] <n1> the problem was it should have always been that way
[20:26:27] <n1> yeah
[20:26:21] <janrinok> Oh, OK, but you get my gist
[20:26:14] <n1> we'll change the name, but keep the current one as 'trading as'
[20:26:07] <n1> it's more likely the other way round
[20:25:48] <janrinok> Would you lose much if you kept the current name but also used a 'Trading As' name that is more to you liking?
[20:25:22] <n1> but now, the business is in the name, which means when trying other ventures in different sectors, it looks all wrong.
[20:24:43] <n1> which is something i specifically avoided in my first business
[20:24:41] <janrinok> gotcha
[20:24:31] <janrinok> 'Blagem and Run. Partners. Your valuables are safe with us'
[20:24:28] <n1> it's too narrowly defined
[20:23:42] <janrinok> 'Ivor Lightfinger - Security Expert'
[20:22:58] <janrinok> so, do you want to share the mistake in you business name?
[20:22:02] <janrinok> exactly - and yet we ask people to follow the guidelines. How are they supposed to find them?
[20:21:25] <n1> I think i've ended up going to the wiki via IRC links, because I couldn't find it easily going directly.
[20:21:23] <janrinok> Perhaps that is my inadequacies - LOL
[20:21:08] <n1> yeah, I agree with that.
[20:20:42] <janrinok> The only problem with the wiki from my point of view is that you have to know where to start to look for things. I haven't found a master index that is sorted alphabetically or something like that. For example, if you go the the wiki main page, navigate to the submission guidelines based on the menu options that you are given. _You_ might know where to look, but not many others do.
[20:20:38] <n1> it seems to be working right now, everyone seems to be pretty much on the same page
[20:18:47] <n1> yeah NC has been doing some good work on that, the wiki has been an education for me!
[20:18:24] <janrinok> I happy with the team at present - in fact I'm very pleased with how it has gelled.
[20:18:09] <n1> i can't hold it against B, it was his project. I totally disagree with it, but it was his decision. Other people, I would be less impressed with having such an attitude.
[20:17:50] <janrinok> But B wasn't the only one - just the most obvious
[20:17:07] <janrinok> That's why the incorporation is so important and, although he hates the task, NC has been putting in a lot of hard work in resolving it.
[20:16:50] <n1> well yes, B is the easiest and most obvious example of 'for their own ends'
[20:16:10] <janrinok> And B himself admitted that he expected to make $10K in the first year and that the site would be worth 5 figures in a matter of a few years. He may be proven correct but it won't be going into anyone's pocket!
[20:14:26] <janrinok> Well there were others who were thought to be working for the other site to either make sure we failed or simply to feed back what we were doing. And there were some who appeared to be trying to steer the site for their own ends.
[20:14:21] <n1> i think that's reasonable, I try not to misrepresent, but at the same time, I wont give some details.
[20:13:20] <n1> i'm not surprised about the leaks, but as an outside observer during that time, it was quite cloak and dagger
[20:13:04] <janrinok> Its not all untrue, just not quite how it seems.
[20:12:32] <janrinok> If we ever get to share a beer in person, I'll tell you more about myself, but none of the information in the SN database about me is genuine, and I've told people that.
[20:11:42] <n1> just today i was talking to my dad about the mistake in the name I chose for my business.
[20:11:09] <n1> Oh, indeed.
[20:10:57] <janrinok> It just seemed a good idea at the time I suppose. Hindsight is always perfect!
[20:10:19] <n1> I don't envy him for that, but then a less thought provoking name might have been in order.
[20:10:00] <janrinok> In the first few weeks there were several leaks from the inner core - long before I even was given the secret handshake - although I never heard who was responsible.
[20:08:46] <n1> it's best to just not read anything into the names people go by online, it rarely seems to be a representation of the person themselves
[20:08:39] <janrinok> He was asked time and time again by people who didn't realise that he didn't want others to know who he was before he changed his nick to Mrgirlunplugged and it got shortened to MrGirl!
[20:07:31] <n1> I think that was probably my first assumption too.
[20:07:01] <janrinok> Funnily enough, when MrGirl did join his nick was girlunplugged or something similar. Many people actually thought that 'she' was 'girlundertraining' from the other site!
[20:05:49] <n1> I try to avoid it anyway, as i've read enough comments about people just not appreciating it.
[20:05:34] <janrinok> And then you look at some of the site names that were being proposed! It was stupid.
[20:05:03] <n1> but you're right
[20:05:00] <n1> i hadn't really thought about that before
[20:04:48] <janrinok> It's meant in jest but is often taken as a serious insult.
[20:04:22] <janrinok> One of the problems with all the 'bacon' jokes is that they do put a lot of people off coming anywhere close to us.
[20:03:38] <n1> let us hope we get him back some day
[20:03:22] <janrinok> He was very bright and had some very good access to useful people.
[20:03:21] <n1> hope so too
[20:02:43] <janrinok> But - he might just be busy with his university studies. I hope he and his family are all OK.
[20:02:42] <n1> A sad loss to the SN community.
[20:02:26] <n1> Indeed.
[20:01:52] <janrinok> Unfortunately, in the Middle East, things can take a serious turn.
[20:01:46] <n1> I can understand why he was pissed.
[20:00:55] <janrinok> MrGirl answered the call for volunteer eds who were not based in USA or UK, and spoke via PM to various staff members. They agreed not to compromise the information. It was leaked by someone who was in a trusted position in the hierarchy at the time the he and I were joining.
[20:00:54] <n1> re the new member 'pipedot'
[20:00:36] <n1> wouldn't need to register to do that thoug
[19:59:34] <n1> thats the feel it has to it
[19:58:55] <janrinok> I 'suspect' (and cannot substantiate) that GS came to find out how we did things, either found it too rigid and formal, or just didn't care once he had been shown, and then took that knowledge to pipedot. I'm now watching to see if the 'new member' starts picking up on our stories and feeding them back to the pipedot site. _All_ speculation.
[19:58:54] <n1> but it's a shame, I recall mrgirl editing quite a lot of stories, as much as you were then.
[19:57:47] <n1> not ideal, but if it was something they wanted to keep secret, perhaps shouldn't have told anyone in the first place.
[19:56:42] <janrinok> MrGirl^^^
[19:56:22] <janrinok> One of the conditions that he joined was that his true identity and home location would be kept private - somebody let the secret out of the bag and he wasn't too pleased. He didn't leave immediately, but he was gone within a few weeks, I don't know if there was a connection or not.#
[19:55:09] <n1> well if you ever want to share your speculation ;)
[19:55:00] <janrinok> well, if we did I never heard.
[19:54:43] <n1> did we get a reason why MrGirl stopped, it seemed a very sudden one day no more thing.
[19:54:43] <janrinok> I have my own theory about that but it is all speculation.
[19:54:15] <n1> I think someone talked on here the other day about GungnirSniper and pipedot, that he was working on both sites
[19:54:14] <janrinok> I was doing some back of a fag packet maths earlier, if every member submitted one story every 3 months we could almost put out 2 stories an hour 24 hours a day!
[19:52:56] <janrinok> everyone is doing brilliantly under the circumstances. MrGirl and GungnirSniper have both gone, the latter now is part of pipedot I believe. By the way, the nick 'pipedot' joined today - we don't know if it is the real thing or not.
[19:52:21] <n1> if woods and weeds are consistent then i think things will be a lot better for all of us
[19:51:31] <n1> full credit to him for keeping him the pace even with everything else he has going on
[19:51:00] <janrinok> not only you, LamX does a lot from work - at both of his jobs!
[19:50:34] <n1> just in my own position, i could never work with a rosta, because my diary/plans change on a daily basis.
[19:50:34] <janrinok> ...with this problem for a while yet
[19:50:23] <janrinok> So until we find a workable solution, I think we are stuck with the
[19:50:00] <n1> yeah, i think that's a nice idea, but the reality was never going to be the same
[19:49:35] <janrinok> You also knew what days you had off!
[19:49:24] <janrinok> Originally, we had a rosta drawn up which said what days and at what times you would be 'on duty' so to speak but, because many do this as well as their work committment, it didnt' function as we had hoped.
[19:49:06] <n1> It's a communication issue is all. I'm not really annoyed by anyone of it, as I totally understand. It's just frustrating as you know.
[19:48:02] <janrinok> I can understand that.
[19:47:57] <n1> we all have other pressures and obligations, but when it comes to editing as it's somethign that needs to be done every day, so we need to know whats going on.
[19:47:36] <janrinok> Anyway - I'm still thinking it over so no decisions made yet. Dopefish did tell someone but asked them to keep it quiet until it was announced officially.
[19:46:42] <n1> he came back to tell us, but it was after quite some time of being absent.
[19:46:20] <n1> not at all
[19:46:11] <janrinok> I don't begrudge him that one bit.
[19:45:53] <janrinok> Dopefish has been promoted at work and now has to put in a lot of extra hours to make sure he doesn't lose it.
[19:45:30] <n1> mattie_p, mrcoolbp and bytram excluded obviously, as they have other tasks within the site
[19:44:57] <n1> the lack of communication isn't ideal, i know i'm quite erratic but having yourself, LamX and me... the other 'editors' arn't reliable at the moment, and we don't know why.
[19:44:32] <janrinok> I think so too - its been a lot more fun too the last month or so.
[19:43:35] <n1> even with the relative numbers of staff, as we all have other competing demands and constraints, i think we're doing quite well as an all volunteer effort
[19:43:34] <janrinok> The ed list looks good but there are several on it who are stand-byes, (mattie_p, bytram etc) and several who we just do not see often at all, probably for very good reasons. But I don't want to take a break and leave everyone else struggling like we did a month or two back. It wasn't pleasant.
[19:41:14] <janrinok> exactly - and LamX has rightly put his priorities elsewhere for the immediate future, although he is still posting. mrcoolbp has picked up the other projects that lam was working with.
[19:41:08] <n1> I think between yourself and LamX, you couldn't have done any better.
[19:40:03] <n1> some days i have to put it to one side, because i know if i look at the queue i'll feel obligated to add more to it, when i have other priorities.
[19:39:53] <janrinok> although we a much better than we were only a few weeks back.
[19:39:32] <janrinok> we could do with a better geographic spread to help fill the dead tz
[19:39:06] <n1> thats cool, we still need the extra help
[19:38:46] <janrinok> I think still under training - but I might simply have misunderstood that.
[19:38:12] <janrinok> ..and it will give you a chance to catch up - you are going at one hell of a pace yourself!
[19:37:53] <n1> weeds is a new editor also?
[19:37:45] <n1> you don't want to burn out with it, take your time when you need it, you've certainly done your fair share of work for the site.
[19:37:30] <janrinok> But I want to make sure that recent eds (woods and weeds) are happy about how things run and are confident to be left without someone looking over their shoulder. We can all do the normal day-to-day, it's the unusual that I still struggle with.
[19:36:06] <n1> i think that could be interesting, hopefully make the community a bit more tolerant of our errors
[19:35:44] <janrinok> Well I've not had a serious break since I became an ed - about a month after we started - and I could do with some down time to just enjoy being on IRC and not having to worry about the next 3 hours of stories etc.
[19:34:35] <n1> it wasn't all that long ago, but i feel a long way away from the casual reader now, very different perspective on the site
[19:33:58] <janrinok> Without doubt - but I suspect some of the community still believe that we get paid, we collect all the stories ourselves, and that we (should) poach them all from /. anyway. I'd just like to put that straight by explaining what we _do_ actually do.
[19:32:46] <n1> for the better?
[19:32:39] <janrinok> ... and things have changed considerably since then.
[19:32:35] <n1> i'll put in another 3 or 4 stories for overnight, but I wont do that until later this evening.
[19:32:18] <janrinok> We've been going since 16 Feb!
[19:31:55] <janrinok> I'm thinking of crafting a piece for release say in a week or so with 'An Editors View of the Start of Soylent News' - explaining how we got where we are today, how we do things, how we rely on submissions, and how to criticise and be listened to....
[19:31:46] <n1> well done on finishing the editorial process, i'll make sure to read it properly now it's 'complete'
[19:29:56] <janrinok> I've managed to finish the Editorial Process on the wiki - I might have told you that yesterday - and apart from editing the stories I haven't done much today. That's not a bad Sunday in my book.
[19:28:35] <n1> lol
[19:28:34] <n1> not too bad, spent a long time on the phone with the parents, as i hadn't spoken to them for 2 or 3 weeks
[19:28:11] <janrinok> ...all the girls say that to me...
[19:27:55] <n1> apologies for dropping out yesterday, internet connection troubles and other distractions...
[19:27:52] <janrinok> had a good Sunday?
[19:27:32] nick is now known as n1
[19:27:29] <janrinok> hi nick
[19:27:10] <nick> hey janrinok
[19:26:11] janrinok|afk is now known as janrinok
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[16:56:57] <Bytram> trying to get a couple things done before I go in to work.
[16:56:49] <Bytram> okay thanks!
[16:52:06] <n1> how are you this weekend?
[16:49:50] <Bytram> hi!
[16:49:34] <n1> hey Bytram
[16:49:32] <n1> lol
[16:46:19] <Bytram> =)
[16:46:18] <Bytram> n1: and I'm front.
[16:40:31] <n1> and i'm back
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[16:08:06] <Bytram|afk> janrinok|afk: u still there?
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[16:01:19] <janrinok> LaminatorX - Thanks for that - hope to see you around in the not to distant future. Good luck!
[16:00:15] <janrinok> thx anyway
[15:59:13] <Bytram|afk> janrinok: looks like lamx beat me to it, but checking them anyway.
[15:57:57] <janrinok> thx
[15:51:39] <Bytram|afk> janrinok: I've got a couple minutes... on my way
[15:47:25] <janrinok> If there is an ed around, can someone do the 2nd ed check on my stories please.
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[13:22:41] <janrinok> hi guys
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