#editorial | Logs for 2014-04-27

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[13:22:41] <janrinok> hi guys
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[15:47:25] <janrinok> If there is an ed around, can someone do the 2nd ed check on my stories please.
[15:51:39] <Bytram|afk> janrinok: I've got a couple minutes... on my way
[15:57:57] <janrinok> thx
[15:59:13] <Bytram|afk> janrinok: looks like lamx beat me to it, but checking them anyway.
[16:00:15] <janrinok> thx anyway
[16:01:19] <janrinok> LaminatorX - Thanks for that - hope to see you around in the not to distant future. Good luck!
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[16:08:06] <Bytram|afk> janrinok|afk: u still there?
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[16:40:31] <n1> and i'm back
[16:46:18] <Bytram> n1: and I'm front.
[16:46:19] <Bytram> =)
[16:49:32] <n1> lol
[16:49:34] <n1> hey Bytram
[16:49:50] <Bytram> hi!
[16:52:06] <n1> how are you this weekend?
[16:56:49] <Bytram> okay thanks!
[16:56:57] <Bytram> trying to get a couple things done before I go in to work.
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[19:27:10] <nick> hey janrinok
[19:27:29] <janrinok> hi nick
[19:27:32] nick is now known as n1
[19:27:52] <janrinok> had a good Sunday?
[19:27:55] <n1> apologies for dropping out yesterday, internet connection troubles and other distractions...
[19:28:11] <janrinok> ...all the girls say that to me...
[19:28:34] <n1> not too bad, spent a long time on the phone with the parents, as i hadn't spoken to them for 2 or 3 weeks
[19:28:35] <n1> lol
[19:29:56] <janrinok> I've managed to finish the Editorial Process on the wiki - I might have told you that yesterday - and apart from editing the stories I haven't done much today. That's not a bad Sunday in my book.
[19:31:46] <n1> well done on finishing the editorial process, i'll make sure to read it properly now it's 'complete'
[19:31:55] <janrinok> I'm thinking of crafting a piece for release say in a week or so with 'An Editors View of the Start of Soylent News' - explaining how we got where we are today, how we do things, how we rely on submissions, and how to criticise and be listened to....
[19:32:18] <janrinok> We've been going since 16 Feb!
[19:32:35] <n1> i'll put in another 3 or 4 stories for overnight, but I wont do that until later this evening.
[19:32:39] <janrinok> ... and things have changed considerably since then.
[19:32:46] <n1> for the better?
[19:33:58] <janrinok> Without doubt - but I suspect some of the community still believe that we get paid, we collect all the stories ourselves, and that we (should) poach them all from /. anyway. I'd just like to put that straight by explaining what we _do_ actually do.
[19:34:35] <n1> it wasn't all that long ago, but i feel a long way away from the casual reader now, very different perspective on the site
[19:35:44] <janrinok> Well I've not had a serious break since I became an ed - about a month after we started - and I could do with some down time to just enjoy being on IRC and not having to worry about the next 3 hours of stories etc.
[19:36:06] <n1> i think that could be interesting, hopefully make the community a bit more tolerant of our errors
[19:37:30] <janrinok> But I want to make sure that recent eds (woods and weeds) are happy about how things run and are confident to be left without someone looking over their shoulder. We can all do the normal day-to-day, it's the unusual that I still struggle with.
[19:37:45] <n1> you don't want to burn out with it, take your time when you need it, you've certainly done your fair share of work for the site.
[19:37:53] <n1> weeds is a new editor also?
[19:38:12] <janrinok> ..and it will give you a chance to catch up - you are going at one hell of a pace yourself!
[19:38:46] <janrinok> I think still under training - but I might simply have misunderstood that.
[19:39:06] <n1> thats cool, we still need the extra help
[19:39:32] <janrinok> we could do with a better geographic spread to help fill the dead tz
[19:39:53] <janrinok> although we a much better than we were only a few weeks back.
[19:40:03] <n1> some days i have to put it to one side, because i know if i look at the queue i'll feel obligated to add more to it, when i have other priorities.
[19:41:08] <n1> I think between yourself and LamX, you couldn't have done any better.
[19:41:14] <janrinok> exactly - and LamX has rightly put his priorities elsewhere for the immediate future, although he is still posting. mrcoolbp has picked up the other projects that lam was working with.
[19:43:34] <janrinok> The ed list looks good but there are several on it who are stand-byes, (mattie_p, bytram etc) and several who we just do not see often at all, probably for very good reasons. But I don't want to take a break and leave everyone else struggling like we did a month or two back. It wasn't pleasant.
[19:43:35] <n1> even with the relative numbers of staff, as we all have other competing demands and constraints, i think we're doing quite well as an all volunteer effort
[19:44:32] <janrinok> I think so too - its been a lot more fun too the last month or so.
[19:44:57] <n1> the lack of communication isn't ideal, i know i'm quite erratic but having yourself, LamX and me... the other 'editors' arn't reliable at the moment, and we don't know why.
[19:45:30] <n1> mattie_p, mrcoolbp and bytram excluded obviously, as they have other tasks within the site
[19:45:53] <janrinok> Dopefish has been promoted at work and now has to put in a lot of extra hours to make sure he doesn't lose it.
[19:46:11] <janrinok> I don't begrudge him that one bit.
[19:46:20] <n1> not at all
[19:46:42] <n1> he came back to tell us, but it was after quite some time of being absent.
[19:47:36] <janrinok> Anyway - I'm still thinking it over so no decisions made yet. Dopefish did tell someone but asked them to keep it quiet until it was announced officially.
[19:47:57] <n1> we all have other pressures and obligations, but when it comes to editing as it's somethign that needs to be done every day, so we need to know whats going on.
[19:48:02] <janrinok> I can understand that.
[19:49:06] <n1> It's a communication issue is all. I'm not really annoyed by anyone of it, as I totally understand. It's just frustrating as you know.
[19:49:24] <janrinok> Originally, we had a rosta drawn up which said what days and at what times you would be 'on duty' so to speak but, because many do this as well as their work committment, it didnt' function as we had hoped.
[19:49:35] <janrinok> You also knew what days you had off!
[19:50:00] <n1> yeah, i think that's a nice idea, but the reality was never going to be the same
[19:50:23] <janrinok> So until we find a workable solution, I think we are stuck with the
[19:50:34] <janrinok> ...with this problem for a while yet
[19:50:34] <n1> just in my own position, i could never work with a rosta, because my diary/plans change on a daily basis.
[19:51:00] <janrinok> not only you, LamX does a lot from work - at both of his jobs!
[19:51:31] <n1> full credit to him for keeping him the pace even with everything else he has going on
[19:52:21] <n1> if woods and weeds are consistent then i think things will be a lot better for all of us
[19:52:56] <janrinok> everyone is doing brilliantly under the circumstances. MrGirl and GungnirSniper have both gone, the latter now is part of pipedot I believe. By the way, the nick 'pipedot' joined today - we don't know if it is the real thing or not.
[19:54:14] <janrinok> I was doing some back of a fag packet maths earlier, if every member submitted one story every 3 months we could almost put out 2 stories an hour 24 hours a day!
[19:54:15] <n1> I think someone talked on here the other day about GungnirSniper and pipedot, that he was working on both sites
[19:54:43] <janrinok> I have my own theory about that but it is all speculation.
[19:54:43] <n1> did we get a reason why MrGirl stopped, it seemed a very sudden one day no more thing.
[19:55:00] <janrinok> well, if we did I never heard.
[19:55:09] <n1> well if you ever want to share your speculation ;)
[19:56:22] <janrinok> One of the conditions that he joined was that his true identity and home location would be kept private - somebody let the secret out of the bag and he wasn't too pleased. He didn't leave immediately, but he was gone within a few weeks, I don't know if there was a connection or not.#
[19:56:42] <janrinok> MrGirl^^^
[19:57:47] <n1> not ideal, but if it was something they wanted to keep secret, perhaps shouldn't have told anyone in the first place.
[19:58:54] <n1> but it's a shame, I recall mrgirl editing quite a lot of stories, as much as you were then.
[19:58:55] <janrinok> I 'suspect' (and cannot substantiate) that GS came to find out how we did things, either found it too rigid and formal, or just didn't care once he had been shown, and then took that knowledge to pipedot. I'm now watching to see if the 'new member' starts picking up on our stories and feeding them back to the pipedot site. _All_ speculation.
[19:59:34] <n1> thats the feel it has to it
[20:00:36] <n1> wouldn't need to register to do that thoug
[20:00:54] <n1> re the new member 'pipedot'
[20:00:55] <janrinok> MrGirl answered the call for volunteer eds who were not based in USA or UK, and spoke via PM to various staff members. They agreed not to compromise the information. It was leaked by someone who was in a trusted position in the hierarchy at the time the he and I were joining.
[20:01:46] <n1> I can understand why he was pissed.
[20:01:52] <janrinok> Unfortunately, in the Middle East, things can take a serious turn.
[20:02:26] <n1> Indeed.
[20:02:42] <n1> A sad loss to the SN community.
[20:02:43] <janrinok> But - he might just be busy with his university studies. I hope he and his family are all OK.
[20:03:21] <n1> hope so too
[20:03:22] <janrinok> He was very bright and had some very good access to useful people.
[20:03:38] <n1> let us hope we get him back some day
[20:04:22] <janrinok> One of the problems with all the 'bacon' jokes is that they do put a lot of people off coming anywhere close to us.
[20:04:48] <janrinok> It's meant in jest but is often taken as a serious insult.
[20:05:00] <n1> i hadn't really thought about that before
[20:05:03] <n1> but you're right
[20:05:34] <janrinok> And then you look at some of the site names that were being proposed! It was stupid.
[20:05:49] <n1> I try to avoid it anyway, as i've read enough comments about people just not appreciating it.
[20:07:01] <janrinok> Funnily enough, when MrGirl did join his nick was girlunplugged or something similar. Many people actually thought that 'she' was 'girlundertraining' from the other site!
[20:07:31] <n1> I think that was probably my first assumption too.
[20:08:39] <janrinok> He was asked time and time again by people who didn't realise that he didn't want others to know who he was before he changed his nick to Mrgirlunplugged and it got shortened to MrGirl!
[20:08:46] <n1> it's best to just not read anything into the names people go by online, it rarely seems to be a representation of the person themselves
[20:10:00] <janrinok> In the first few weeks there were several leaks from the inner core - long before I even was given the secret handshake - although I never heard who was responsible.
[20:10:19] <n1> I don't envy him for that, but then a less thought provoking name might have been in order.
[20:10:57] <janrinok> It just seemed a good idea at the time I suppose. Hindsight is always perfect!
[20:11:09] <n1> Oh, indeed.
[20:11:42] <n1> just today i was talking to my dad about the mistake in the name I chose for my business.
[20:12:32] <janrinok> If we ever get to share a beer in person, I'll tell you more about myself, but none of the information in the SN database about me is genuine, and I've told people that.
[20:13:04] <janrinok> Its not all untrue, just not quite how it seems.
[20:13:20] <n1> i'm not surprised about the leaks, but as an outside observer during that time, it was quite cloak and dagger
[20:14:21] <n1> i think that's reasonable, I try not to misrepresent, but at the same time, I wont give some details.
[20:14:26] <janrinok> Well there were others who were thought to be working for the other site to either make sure we failed or simply to feed back what we were doing. And there were some who appeared to be trying to steer the site for their own ends.
[20:16:10] <janrinok> And B himself admitted that he expected to make $10K in the first year and that the site would be worth 5 figures in a matter of a few years. He may be proven correct but it won't be going into anyone's pocket!
[20:16:50] <n1> well yes, B is the easiest and most obvious example of 'for their own ends'
[20:17:07] <janrinok> That's why the incorporation is so important and, although he hates the task, NC has been putting in a lot of hard work in resolving it.
[20:17:50] <janrinok> But B wasn't the only one - just the most obvious
[20:18:09] <n1> i can't hold it against B, it was his project. I totally disagree with it, but it was his decision. Other people, I would be less impressed with having such an attitude.
[20:18:24] <janrinok> I happy with the team at present - in fact I'm very pleased with how it has gelled.
[20:18:47] <n1> yeah NC has been doing some good work on that, the wiki has been an education for me!
[20:20:38] <n1> it seems to be working right now, everyone seems to be pretty much on the same page
[20:20:42] <janrinok> The only problem with the wiki from my point of view is that you have to know where to start to look for things. I haven't found a master index that is sorted alphabetically or something like that. For example, if you go the the wiki main page, navigate to the submission guidelines based on the menu options that you are given. _You_ might know where to look, but not many others do.
[20:21:08] <n1> yeah, I agree with that.
[20:21:23] <janrinok> Perhaps that is my inadequacies - LOL
[20:21:25] <n1> I think i've ended up going to the wiki via IRC links, because I couldn't find it easily going directly.
[20:22:02] <janrinok> exactly - and yet we ask people to follow the guidelines. How are they supposed to find them?
[20:22:58] <janrinok> so, do you want to share the mistake in you business name?
[20:23:42] <janrinok> 'Ivor Lightfinger - Security Expert'
[20:24:28] <n1> it's too narrowly defined
[20:24:31] <janrinok> 'Blagem and Run. Partners. Your valuables are safe with us'
[20:24:41] <janrinok> gotcha
[20:24:43] <n1> which is something i specifically avoided in my first business
[20:25:22] <n1> but now, the business is in the name, which means when trying other ventures in different sectors, it looks all wrong.
[20:25:48] <janrinok> Would you lose much if you kept the current name but also used a 'Trading As' name that is more to you liking?
[20:26:07] <n1> it's more likely the other way round
[20:26:14] <n1> we'll change the name, but keep the current one as 'trading as'
[20:26:21] <janrinok> Oh, OK, but you get my gist
[20:26:27] <n1> yeah
[20:26:39] <n1> the problem was it should have always been that way
[20:26:53] <n1> I dropped the ball and didn't think about it properly
[20:26:57] <janrinok> its that hindsight thing again.....
[20:27:06] <n1> need a more vague 'services' style name.
[20:27:44] <janrinok> we learn most from our mistakes. Learning and then moving on is what separates the achievers from the others.
[20:27:45] <n1> we've done different things, but always with people we already have a business relationship with.
[20:28:06] <n1> but it's not quite so easy when trying to convince people you're the right person to do x, when you company name says you do y.
[20:28:15] <janrinok> understood.
[20:28:45] <n1> with the Trading As, you have to have the proper name on the website, and the billing goes through the ltd name.
[20:28:49] <n1> so it just looks messy and unprofessional
[20:28:58] <janrinok> So you would prefer a more generic name within you field of expertise.
[20:29:21] <n1> more generic than anything, because some of the stuff we do isn't related at all to the 'security'
[20:29:41] <janrinok> that does make it tricky!
[20:29:43] <n1> it's more likely to be something stupidly vague like N1 Services, as an example.
[20:29:45] <janrinok> brb 5 mins
[20:30:01] <janrinok> sorry Soph calls
[20:30:01] <n1> i'm going to run to tesco, so i'll be back in a few.
[20:30:16] <n1> no worries
[20:51:06] <janrinok> I have had a thought. Imagine you create a new company with the name that you want. Then make your existing company a 'Division' of the larger company e.g xyz company, part of the Security Division of NewName company. The way you could continue (I think) with your existing name but create new 'divisions' to meet future unforeseen needs. Is that at all practical, possible and/or legal?
[20:51:59] <janrinok> If anything it looks like someone else could see the value in your current company and absorbed it.
[20:52:08] <janrinok> Just a thought?!
[21:07:45] <n1> back now
[21:07:51] <n1> on the phone
[21:07:53] <janrinok> ^^^
[21:12:06] <n1> it is possible, but it's the costs and complications involved are not really worth it
[21:12:26] <janrinok> ah, well, it's the best that I could come up with.
[21:12:28] <n1> we're not really going to harm ourselves by changing the name, as we're keeping the brand and on good terms with our existing customers
[21:12:37] <n1> thanks for the thought though
[21:13:09] <janrinok> you can probably work out that I've never run a business.....
[21:13:26] <n1> and you're better off for it!
[21:13:53] <n1> ultimately i defer these things to my business partner, as the legal stuff is his responsibility
[21:14:23] <janrinok> commanded over 100 men and women who were being shot at - but you don't tend to worry about the bits and bobs of company names and things...
[21:14:30] <n1> originally we were going to set up a new company for another venture, but as things progress it's looking like a better option to not complicate things even more
[21:14:40] <n1> and it keeps the fixed costs down
[21:14:55] <n1> as we'll still only have to prepare one set of accounts, do one set of payroll etc
[21:15:33] <n1> thats a very different thing, in the army(?)
[21:15:51] <janrinok> military - both RAF and Army
[21:16:18] <n1> i thought you said RAF before but wasn't sure
[21:16:35] <n1> but thats a whole different organization and command structure i'm sure
[21:16:48] <n1> and indeed, the details about 'names' are far less important to not important at all
[21:16:59] <janrinok> in the late 70's I flew nuclear bombers (Vulcan B2s) but moved into other fields when the nuclear weapons were transferred to submarines.
[21:17:47] <n1> wow, that's rather impressive!
[21:18:00] <janrinok> it paid the rent, as they say
[21:18:18] <n1> submarines arn't as cool as bombers also ;)
[21:18:22] <janrinok> still does, it's not a bad pension
[21:19:48] <n1> military service is a vocation i'm not cut out for
[21:19:52] <janrinok> well the Vulcan had come to the end of its viable life, and manned bombers are expensive. The submarine fleet had to be built instead but it can deploy more warheads and with a better prospect of survival so it was the obvious way to go.
[21:20:04] <n1> thats good, and by the sounds of it you did the work to earn that pension
[21:20:37] <janrinok> That's the bit I can tell you about here - wait until we share those beers.
[21:20:39] <n1> yeah, submarines are 'progress' on that front, but they don't really have the cool factor that planes do
[21:20:54] <n1> sure
[21:21:07] <janrinok> I met Soph in Germany on an RAF station.
[21:21:32] <n1> well it was all worth it just for that then
[21:21:36] <janrinok> She's been places many people just watch on TV, and not for holiday destinations either.
[21:21:57] <janrinok> yep, we're a good match
[21:23:24] <n1> i'd like to work around the world more, see different cultures from different perspectives
[21:24:17] <n1> even the holiday destinations, if you're not a tourist, they become very different worlds.
[21:24:28] <janrinok> so would we - but travel is somewhat curtailled nowadays ;-)
[21:24:57] <n1> well, it sounds like you got to see more than most people when you could.
[21:24:58] <janrinok> where would you want to go that you haven't been to?
[21:26:09] <n1> some of the places, i've already been, but I was too young to appreciate and with the family
[21:26:22] <n1> places like Kenya and Cuba
[21:26:36] <n1> but i'm yet to set foot in South America
[21:26:38] <janrinok> yes, I'd fancy both of those.
[21:27:13] <n1> I have memories of both, even though i was quite young at the time, just makes me want to experience it again now i'm old enough to fully appreciate.
[21:27:39] <janrinok> Soph would like to go back to NZ where she went as a child.
[21:27:51] <n1> it'd like to go to Nepal
[21:28:22] <n1> NZ is supposed to be beautiful, I missed the opportunity when I was in Australia, but I don't regret it as I had such a great time anyway.
[21:28:50] <janrinok> not been there either (Nepal) although I have worked alongside the Ghurka, of course.
[21:29:08] <janrinok> whereabouts in aus?
[21:29:30] <n1> i spent the majority of my time(several months) in Melbourne, but I was in Sydney for a couple of weeks too.
[21:29:47] <n1> i properly integrated into the local community while i was there, came back with an aussie accent.
[21:29:55] <janrinok> lol
[21:31:24] <n1> it's easier to adapt to the local dialect than try and force understanding of your own.
[21:32:59] <n1> Similar with American wording, it's just easier to go native. Which isn't always ideal when you forget you're not talking to an American and use the word 'pants' for trousers.
[21:35:49] <janrinok> well it would raise a few eyebrowse depending on context
[21:36:04] <n1> quite
[21:36:22] <n1> and my brain often stalls for a second with the crisps/chips/fries situation
[21:36:50] <janrinok> lol - that the same for us all
[21:38:27] <n1> id have thought, over the years it would have fixed itself, but no
[21:38:58] <janrinok> no its getting worse. Films and TV are mixing it up quite a lot
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[21:39:49] <n1> i'd be happy if we just decided both are fine and people should pay attention to context.
[21:40:40] <n1> color vs colour, center vs centre as long as the meaning isn't lost, it shouldn't matter at this point.
[21:40:46] <janrinok> well we have here. I wrote the wiki piece on it earlier last week. Either is correct as long as it is consistent throughout the document
[21:40:53] <n1> yup
[21:41:07] <janrinok> teh world will catch up one day....
[21:42:49] <n1> I'm wondering if it's a generational thing, the strict rules of english came in with the strict schooling in early 20th century britain. english has always been evolving and changing, but that would be too complicated for schooling, so they made the decision on the one true way... the english language itself just kept evolving though.
[21:42:49] <janrinok> I shouldn't Stumble when its getting near to my bed time. I find facinating topics that absorb me for hours!
[21:43:21] <janrinok> you could well be right - I hadn't thought of it like that!
[21:44:30] <n1> just a thought, it seems logical to me and explains why the older you are the more likely you are to see the 'rights and wrongs' of how people use the language.
[21:45:12] <n1> because it's filtered down and obviously diluting as time goes on, with more liberal schooling and society.
[21:46:16] <janrinok> As long as communication is clear I don't get too excited about it. But when people are unable to communicate effectively, then they cause problems for others. That doesn't mean they have to speak a certain way or up to a certain standard, just clearly and using words that everyone being spoken to will understand.
[21:46:37] <n1> and the regional variations in spoken language never disappeared, which how that gets ignored is beyond me.
[21:47:06] <n1> I totally agree, getting the message across is the most important thing.
[21:47:15] <janrinok> Oh I can speak broad Lancashire if I want to!
[21:47:48] <n1> I know my speech adjusts depending on the social situation
[21:48:21] <janrinok> I can still struggle with Geordie and Glaswegian though.....
[21:49:09] <n1> I'm just as good at more formal english as 'london geezer' english
[21:49:18] <n1> and my 'normal' speech is probably somewhere between the two
[21:49:46] <n1> some of the northern accents do certainly take some careful listening
[21:49:54] <janrinok> I hadn't tried to imagine the accents of people on here - they must be many and varied
[21:50:56] <n1> it can be quite a change, someone i'd known online for many years via IRC, one day we had a conversation on skype
[21:51:08] <janrinok> lol
[21:51:45] <n1> and i couldn't ignore the accent, a very southern accent which you can't read on IRC.
[21:52:33] <janrinok> yep, that would take some getting used to if you had a mental voice that you have 'heard' for years
[21:53:09] <n1> that's it, it can be quite a surprise!
[21:54:13] <n1> when I was in the US, in a very untouristy location, people just wanted to hear me talk, they found my accent amazing
[21:54:20] <n1> couldn't understand it though, spoke too fast for them.
[21:54:29] <janrinok> I think Soph has just settled for the night, I'll be going soon
[21:55:10] <janrinok> Yes, it's funny when people just want to hear you speak. They always say 'but your accent' and I reply' I haven't got one - you have!'
[21:55:43] <n1> :) good chatting as always - i'll be putting another 3 or 4 stories up before I call it a night.
[21:55:43] <janrinok> 'where I come from, they all talk like this....'
[21:56:30] <janrinok> Yes, likewise, a very pleasant evening. Take care and hope work goes well tomorrow. No doubt see you around here sometime...
[21:56:52] <n1> heh, where I come from is damn close to where the queen lives. as a result, my english is perfect ;)
[21:57:32] <janrinok> lol - on that note I leave you to your evening and your neighbours.....
[21:57:46] <n1> take care :)
[21:57:52] <janrinok> cheers nick
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