#dev | Logs for 2019-01-19

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[16:22:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> fyngyrz, thought of something a day or so ago but forgot to mention it. what allowances have been made for some asshat shouting in all or mostly caps and triggering the plugin on every word?
[16:22:56] <fyngyrz> Several things;
[16:23:23] <fyngyrz> First, the plugin is designed for the TFA editing; so there should be minimal stress of that type...
[16:23:51] <fyngyrz> Second, unknown terms are summed up in a list, they don't generate <abbr> sections
[16:24:24] <fyngyrz> Third, there is an "ignore" list so that a caps sequence, used in an non-known-term way, can be skipped quietly
[16:25:14] <fyngyrz> I don't think I know enough about perl security to subject the plugin to any random asshat. But editors should be no problem.
[16:25:44] <fyngyrz> I would *hope* that Perl is robust enough not to blow crap up when processing text, but I can't say I actually know that
[16:26:00] <fyngyrz> my perl-fu is weak. Very, very weak.
[16:26:15] <fyngyrz> /fin
[16:27:13] <fyngyrz> my suggestion is that the plugin runs when "preview" and "submit" are pressed. That way, the source of TFA isn't meddled with
[16:27:22] <fyngyrz> okay, NOW /fin :)
[16:27:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> fyngyrz, ahh, roger.
[16:27:43] <fyngyrz> also, plugin skips manually entered <abbr> tags
[16:28:29] <fyngyrz> Before I let that thing loose on posts in general, I'd want someone to look at my code with a serious knowledge of Perl security
[16:28:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> if it's only running upon an editor editing something, there shouldn't be any worries.
[16:28:51] <fyngyrz> I suppose evil hacker editors are a possibility too
[16:29:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> preferably the first edit i think.
[16:29:02] <fyngyrz> I felt that way, but it's not my call
[16:29:14] <fyngyrz> how you mean?
[16:29:39] <fyngyrz> you mean, if someone comes back and updates?
[16:29:40] <TheMightyBuzzard> well like we don't need it redoing any abbr tags that the editors have taken out if they preview a second time.
[16:29:52] <fyngyrz> oh, it won't do that. It skips existing abbr tags
[16:30:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> see above re taken out
[16:30:15] <fyngyrz> that's what it has an ignore list for
[16:30:26] <fyngyrz> like, if you enter CERN, it'll just ignore it
[16:30:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> i can make it only run on the first load of the page for promotion to a story though.
[16:30:35] <fyngyrz> in the ignore list.
[16:30:52] <fyngyrz> no, wait...
[16:31:02] <fyngyrz> lemme understand this
[16:31:29] <fyngyrz> when you preview, there's a display section that shows the *result*, and an edit box that shows the source, right?
[16:31:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> too far forward. sec...
[16:31:58] <fyngyrz> My suggestion is that the plugin runs on the source, on the way to the preview box. And also, when "update" is pressed.
[16:32:26] <fyngyrz> never on the contents of the source itself
[16:32:53] <fyngyrz> so: source -> preview, and source->update, but not source->source
[16:33:15] <fyngyrz> the only time that would happen is when a story is re-edited.
[16:33:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> when you click on a submission and get ready to promote it to a story you get a page you can and should edit from. it should probably only run on the first time you run that page.
[16:33:47] <fyngyrz> it's designed to run each time; I think it's okay (and best) if it does.
[16:33:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> hmm
[16:34:16] <fyngyrz> it has the procedures and cautions needed to work okay
[16:34:24] <fyngyrz> as long as the source box remains unaltered
[16:34:47] <fyngyrz> when the preview is satisfactory, and update or submit or whatever happens, it should run once then
[16:35:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> be more useful it it did run on the source as it's placed into a value that's assigned to the Intro Copy field.
[16:35:17] <fyngyrz> then later, if someone came to re-edit, they'd be dealing with the result code. But that's okay, because the plugin won't re-process existing abbr tags
[16:35:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> save the eds some time with copy pasta
[16:35:37] <fyngyrz> how so?
[16:36:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> well otherwise they have to view source on the preview field and copy the html over to the Intro Copy field.
[16:36:41] <fyngyrz> no... if the intro copy is normal, and the preview shows the run result each time, they can see what it's doing, and mod the ignore list if they need to
[16:36:58] <fyngyrz> they don't need to see the embedded abbr tags - they can remove them using the ignore list
[16:37:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> and make it run on story display?
[16:37:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> like every story display?
[16:37:21] <fyngyrz> it just adds unneccesary complexity to the editing if it's in there
[16:37:30] <fyngyrz> no, on the display in the editing page
[16:37:35] <fyngyrz> "preview"
[16:37:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> okay so it's never going to actually display to anyone except editors?
[16:38:19] <fyngyrz> the problem with running on every story display, as Bytram pointed out, is that if the def of a term changes, it will alter an existing story without editor intervention
[16:38:28] <fyngyrz> that's probably undesirable
[16:38:43] <fyngyrz> um, no. Here's the flow:
[16:38:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, you're wanting it to change the preview display and then work on the input when someone hits update
[16:39:29] <fyngyrz> on the edit page, it runs when the source is sent to the display, and when the source is initially submitted or updated.
[16:39:40] <fyngyrz> This results in a static text for the story.
[16:39:57] <fyngyrz> If someone then re-edits it, they will see the embedded abbr tags, because now they've been saved
[16:40:06] <fyngyrz> but in the initial edits, there's no need for that.
[16:40:19] <fyngyrz> that's what I had in mind, presuming that the dataflow is compatible with it.
[16:40:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> dislike. i'd prefer the eds to have full, immediate, manual control over the source they submit without it being altered.
[16:40:54] <fyngyrz> You can, of course, run it on every story every time, but pretty quickly loses control over terms that aren't correctly defined. For instance, NN is "Neural Network", but
[16:41:07] <fyngyrz> people also use it to say "0 to NN" when talking math
[16:41:19] <fyngyrz> so in that case, you'd want to put NN in the ignore list when editing
[16:41:37] <fyngyrz> well, they do
[16:42:02] <fyngyrz> the abbr processor only produces output based on tags it's handling. If one is in the ignore list, it won't.
[16:42:17] <fyngyrz> also...\
[16:42:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> my preference would be this flow: on the first edit of a story run it against both the preview and Intro Copy, then let the eds manually tweak as they see fit and rehash does nothing new to what it receives from that Update
[16:43:01] <fyngyrz> let's say you run your submit. And NN is in there. So now, the source has the abbr taag for that in it - incorrectly. Because it won't re-process an exiting abbr tag, you'd have to hand edit it
[16:44:10] <fyngyrz> whereas if you run it as an onTheWayToDisplayOrFinal process, adjusting the ignore list provides a quick, easy and no-extra effort way to control what happens
[16:44:25] <fyngyrz> and of course, there should be a "don't run the abbr processor" switch. :)
[16:44:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> indeed but it violates the principle of least surprise for eds who've never used it before.
[16:44:58] <fyngyrz> Can I point you to my web page where I've implemented it? Maybe playing with it will help?
[16:45:10] <fyngyrz> I'd appreciate it if you didn't share it though
[16:45:15] <fyngyrz> I can pm it to you
[16:45:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah, i get what you're saying now i just think it should run at a different place.
[16:46:14] <fyngyrz> well, you can't say I didn't try. :)
[16:46:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> i really need a cigarette though, so let's hit pause
[16:46:21] <fyngyrz> k
[16:46:35] <fyngyrz> it was good for me, too
[16:46:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> hey, it's good work, i just disagree a bit on implementation style.
[16:46:47] <fyngyrz> well, it's set up so you can choose
[16:50:03] <fyngyrz> um, also, if you only run it once, it won't catch new terms the editor adds after the first pass
[16:50:27] <fyngyrz> you can, however, run it more than once, as it does ignore existing <abbr> tags
[16:50:39] <fyngyrz> it's pretty quick, too, so there's that
[16:52:12] <fyngyrz> One last try: my page works the way I describe; and I love it. I am constantly editing and re-editing, and the workflow I'm talking about is least disruptive
[17:03:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> good point on new terms
[17:03:19] <fyngyrz> c'mon, give my page a try :)
[17:03:34] <fyngyrz> all ya gotta do is type stuff and hit submit
[17:03:47] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh fine. i haven't had enough coffee yet to make proper sense of it though.
[17:04:01] <fyngyrz> what is it, /msg ?
[17:04:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> /msg TheMightyBuzzard stuff
[17:06:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> got it open in a tab. i'll monkey with it later once i'm able to think and think on it
[17:06:52] <fyngyrz> sounds good
[17:07:27] <fyngyrz> the signature stuff is for posts, of course, not TFA, and there's no macro capability in the perl module / plugin
[17:07:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> currently working up a shitpost rant about sjws making freddy mercury gay in the bohemian rhapsody movie that came out last year. should be entertaining.
[17:08:07] <fyngyrz> I miss that guy - what a loss
[17:08:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya. the more i think about it the more i think they have very good qualifications for best rock band ever.
[17:08:53] <fyngyrz> Try writing the post on my page instead of on soylent. I bet you like it. :)
[17:09:02] <fyngyrz> try the macros
[17:09:10] <fyngyrz> they have help - hover over them
[17:09:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> learning requires thinking. shit talking i can do on auto pilot.
[17:10:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> gonna be a rant as done by an over the top red piller
[17:10:34] <fyngyrz> well, shit talk there. Consider "submit" to be preview. When satisfied, just copypaste from the green box, done.
[17:10:46] <fyngyrz> there's a full preview
[17:10:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> cool cool
[17:11:13] * TheMightyBuzzard glares at his coffee for taking so long to work
[17:11:47] <fyngyrz> if you set up your own (which is seriously trivial for someone like you), you can define your own macros, etc., and I bet once you grasp what that's about, you NEVER post directly again
[17:11:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, wait, i'm still sick. that's probably why i'm not feeling alive after one (30 oz) cup.
[17:12:01] <fyngyrz> saves a shitload of typing, eliminates tons of errors
[17:12:37] * fyngyrz pats TMB on back, encourages vomiting on Freddie Mercury abusers
[17:12:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> we'll have to fix that. can't have our editors being denied the ability to bugger things up as is SN tradition.
[17:13:20] <fyngyrz> no macros for the editors. Only for the private web page. Although you *could* provide the macro processor, I think it might be a bit much
[17:13:28] <fyngyrz> I'd love it though. :)
[17:13:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> some of the newer ones need to go to a cmn32480 typo class. they're not performing up to standards. not enough typos.
[17:13:57] <fyngyrz> remedial typo qualifcation
[17:14:19] <fyngyrz> I've been going after typos when I see them
[17:14:36] <fyngyrz> also grammar, etc., in the non-quoted portions
[17:14:54] <fyngyrz> and the occasional [<i>sic</i>]
[17:14:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> anyway, back to freddy. have you considered that "we will rock you" could possibly be the perfect rock and roll song?
[17:14:59] <fyngyrz> for the quoted ones
[17:15:45] <fyngyrz> well, not really. I'd have to listen to it with that idea carefully in mind
[17:16:12] <fyngyrz> I've been doing rock (guitar, bass, drums, voice) for 53 years now. I do have opinions. :)
[17:16:32] <fyngyrz> I lean towards prog-rock, personally
[17:16:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> well you can't really see why by listening to it alone. the widespread knowledge and appreciation of it as well as the feelings it engenders in those who're doing the stomp stomp clap bit wherever they happen to be doing it is crucial to why.
[17:17:27] <fyngyrz> It was somewhat tainted for me when they used it in that lame knight-in-armor movie
[17:17:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> ha, a knight's tale. i love that movie but you have to watch it as a b movie.
[17:18:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> like attack of the killer tomatoes
[17:18:09] <fyngyrz> ah. Well, I'd probably not be gathering those feelings; I'm not much on the crowd end, I'm on the performer end
[17:18:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya but you can see the effect
[17:18:32] <fyngyrz> and I'm pretty introverted about it. I lose track of the audience entirely
[17:19:11] <fyngyrz> yeah, it's like spectator sports. The synergy affects many people, and probably exactly the type of people who like spectator sports
[17:19:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> you can have snobby knobs who only listen to classical and opera but will still join in enthusiastically at a sporting event.
[17:19:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> or country, rap, whatever...
[17:19:54] <fyngyrz> just spilled my coffee, damnit
[17:20:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> better yours than mine. i'd have to meet you for pistols at dawn if it were mine.
[17:21:02] <fyngyrz> I'm going to have to meet myself for pistols at dawn (curses)
[17:21:24] <fyngyrz> at least I can aim to miss
[17:21:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> there is that.
[17:21:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> just make the next pot twice as strong to make up for the loss.
[17:22:21] <fyngyrz> Deb makes my coffee. :) I'll just get another cup
[17:22:36] <fyngyrz> it didn't go in the keyboard, so that's a win
[17:22:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> you have a coffee minion? sweet. i should get one of those.
[17:22:59] <fyngyrz> she does being a toast minion, too
[17:23:03] <fyngyrz> treats me right well
[17:23:29] <fyngyrz> so I get to sit in here all bleary and shit, and soon toast and coffee arrive
[17:23:37] <fyngyrz> can't complain - no reason :)
[17:23:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> sounds reasonable
[17:24:03] <fyngyrz> it works
[17:24:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> aight. giving up on the journal entry for now. even the creative shitposting juices aren't up to snuff yet.
[17:24:42] <fyngyrz> lol
[17:25:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> going to go go introduce the roomie's boy child to some bruce campbell
[17:25:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> have a good coffee. get back with ya later.
[17:30:32] <fyngyrz> aye
[19:54:42] <chromas> Freddie Mercury being a buttbuddy isn't something they invented for the movie. People've made jokes about it for years. Also, in my expert opinion, We Will Rock You sucks because it's overplayed (hipster.jpg), like Amazing Grace.
[19:54:54] * chromas pokes tmb into ranting
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