#dev | Logs for 2018-02-11

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[01:08:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> aight, not getting around to testing db changes on dev today. it's 7pm and i'm still busy and ain't even started cookin dinner yet.
[01:44:26] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: appreciate the heads up
[12:39:15] SoyGuest36073 is now known as FatPhil
[12:39:43] -!- FatPhil has quit [Changing host]
[12:39:43] -!- FatPhil [FatPhil!~luser@Soylent/Staff/Editor/FatPhil] has joined #dev
[13:04:31] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: this is... weird. I look at the story list page and I see all but one story in green (i.e. signed off), but when I load the main page on prod, it shows the first two stories with "No Signoff" ??!?
[13:06:05] * TheMightyBuzzard shurgs
[13:06:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> caching issue. shows you signed off on them to me.
[13:06:41] <Bytram> I just hit Ctrl+F5 and still show "No Signoff"
[13:06:58] <Bytram> tried again, no dice
[13:07:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> no idea
[13:07:16] <Bytram> strange!
[13:08:30] <Bytram> now that I think back on it, ISTR not seeing this happen before the site upgrade (or maybe I didn't notice it then?)
[13:09:38] <Bytram> just checked on my mobile (chrome browser) and also see the first two stories showing "No Signoff"
[13:10:08] <Bytram> for posterity's sake the two stories are:
[13:10:09] <Bytram> 1) https://soylentnews.org
[13:10:10] <Bytram> and
[13:10:11] <upstart> ^ 03VLC 3.0.0 Released, With Better Hardware Decoding and Support for HDR, 360-Degree Video, Chromecast - SoylentNews
[13:10:12] <exec> └─ 13VLC 3.0.0 Released, With Better Hardware Decoding and Support for HDR, 360-Degree Video, Chromecast - SoylentNews
[13:10:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> i expect you're hitting the other web frontend from me and one of them is having a varnish issue
[13:10:26] <Bytram> 2.) https://soylentnews.org
[13:10:27] <upstart> ^ 03The House That Spied on Me - SoylentNews
[13:10:28] <exec> └─ 13The House That Spied on Me - SoylentNews
[13:10:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> add &foo=bar to the end of the url
[13:10:35] <Bytram> #smake varnish
[13:10:35] * MrPlow smakes varnish upside the head with vegan jizz. made from bean curd.
[13:10:57] <Bytram> for the main page?
[13:11:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> no, for the stories page
[13:11:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> or the individual story pages
[13:11:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> it should cause it to fetch a fresh version
[13:11:36] <Bytram> like this: https://soylentnews.org
[13:11:37] <upstart> ^ 03- SoylentNews User ( https://soylentnews.org )
[13:11:39] <exec> └─ 13- SoylentNews User
[13:12:12] <Bytram> problem is NOT with the stories list page... that matches reality. it's with the main page for the site where I see "No Signoff" under the first two stories
[13:12:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh. yes that's caching then.
[13:12:27] <Bytram> ==>
[13:12:27] <Bytram> Read More... 4 comments Edit No Signoff
[13:12:38] <Bytram> thats off the VLC story
[13:13:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> dude, all stories always show no signoff on the main page.
[13:13:18] <Bytram> nope
[13:13:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> they always have for me
[13:13:26] <Bytram> only see that on the first two stories.
[13:13:38] <Bytram> has NOT been the case for me.
[13:13:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> maybe it means YOU have not signed off on them then.
[13:14:13] * Bytram edits VLC
[13:14:34] <Bytram> orig by mrpg, updated by JR
[13:14:36] <Bytram> hmm
[13:14:45] * Bytram clicks update
[13:15:14] <Bytram> now I DO NOT see "No Signoff" on the first story.
[13:15:16] <Bytram> hmmm
[13:15:56] <Bytram> so... "No Signoff" means NOT that it has not been signed off at all, but instead that *I* have not signed it off? Sense no makes.
[13:16:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> does so
[13:16:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> context
[13:16:22] <Bytram> there WAS a signoff! JR did it
[13:16:50] <Bytram> I see the same state for: https://soylentnews.org
[13:16:52] <upstart> ^ 03The House That Spied on Me - SoylentNews
[13:16:52] <exec> └─ 13The House That Spied on Me - SoylentNews
[13:17:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, that makes as much sense as saying a "log out" button doesn't make sense because it only logs you out instead of everybody.
[13:17:58] <Bytram> I see what you are saying, but this is in reference to a story having (or not having) the property of being signed off
[13:18:16] <Bytram> implied from your example would be "Log [me] out"
[13:18:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> the main page gives you info on whether you've signed off on it, if you want to know if anyone has admin is the place to look.
[13:19:14] <TheMightyBuzzard> it is much, MUCH quicker to check on admin.pl.
[13:20:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> putting "no signoff" on the main page makes no sense to me anyway, in either context.
[13:20:12] <Bytram> so everyone with editor privs (or better), unless they have personally 2nded a story is going to see "No Signoff" on every story? That seems far less useful than putting up a flag that a particular story has not been 2nded at all.
[13:20:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> once it's published, it's too late to worry about is it perfect or not.
[13:20:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> that's my point. it's useless info regardless.
[13:20:55] <Bytram> nope. I know I've gone in and made some adjustments after stories have gone live.
[13:21:11] <Bytram> we are a bit short staffed.
[13:21:31] <Bytram> we don't necessarily have every story 2nded at all times, (though we still try)
[13:22:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> which is fine if you're feeling anal about your edity role. it's too late to keep us from looking slightly noobish though.
[13:22:03] <Bytram> when I see "No Signoff" on the main page, I take that as a sign to look closer at the story (don't just read it as a user) to see if there is something that slipped through.
[13:22:54] <Bytram> in a way, it turns up my "spidey sense"
[13:23:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> once we've shown people we can't spell "clock", you might as well be trying to pick spilled milk up with a fork.
[13:24:25] <Bytram> TheMightyBuzzard: s/shown/shown some/
[13:24:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> any changes after a story goes live are for posterity's sake or updates.
[13:24:33] <Bytram> ~sed on
[13:24:34] <exec> sed enabled for 10#dev
[13:25:14] <Bytram> if only 20 people have seen the faux pas, and I fix it, then there are many MANY more who DO NOT see it.
[13:25:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> yes, but four of those 20 have already mocked you in the comments.
[13:26:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> we're not a group to let a mistake slide gracefully
[13:26:42] <Bytram> well, I just fixed two typos in this story: https://soylentnews.org
[13:26:43] <upstart> ^ 03The House That Spied on Me - SoylentNews
[13:26:44] <exec> └─ 13The House That Spied on Me - SoylentNews
[13:26:56] <Bytram> I just looked through the comments and I see no 'noise' about it.
[13:27:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> must not have been especially interesting typos then
[13:28:02] <Bytram> just changed "activies" to be "activities" and "too" to be "to"
[13:28:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> i think how index.pl does it is the proper way though. you, being the anal Bytram that you are, need to know if YOU have given it a look-over, not if *anyone* has.
[13:30:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> on account of we let minor errors through 2nding all the time.
[13:30:07] <Bytram> If I know that the story has been 2nded, then my "spidey sense" is ratcheted way back, and I read for content/pleasure. When I see "No Signoff", then it's "Full power, Rudolph!" mode
[13:30:48] <Bytram> I might still find stuff in the first mode, but I'm not actively looking for it.
[13:31:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> you'll see un-2nded stories much quicker on admin.pl. duplicating that functionality on the main page would be pointless.
[13:31:52] <Bytram> disagree...
[13:32:04] <Bytram> it's a 2nd level of protection...
[13:32:23] <Bytram> when I am in edity mode, I will be looking at the admin interface looking for trouble
[13:32:36] <Bytram> not all green means look closer here.
[13:32:43] <Bytram> but, I also read the site
[13:32:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, you're currently arguing for throwing unique information that is not available anywhere else away in favor of duplicated and redundant information.
[13:33:58] <Bytram> then change the message? from "No Signoff" (which means, to me, NOBODY has signed off) to something else (Not signed off by you)
[13:34:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> man, i need a smoke.
[13:34:44] <Bytram> I understand the desire to be succinct, but if I, of all people have held this view of the site for this long...
[13:34:53] <Bytram> nod nod
[13:35:25] <Bytram> think I'll take a break and ponder... thanks for the feedback/info.
[13:41:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> Bytram, if you *really* want the 2nded/non-2nded status on index.pl as well, can add it. i don't want to remove useful functionality just because you thought it was something else though. =P
[13:41:26] <Bytram> appreciate that... another data point that may inform the discussion
[13:41:44] <Bytram> it may have been this way all along and I did not put 2+2 together
[13:42:00] <Bytram> my new phone has layout issues when "No Signoff" appears
[13:42:18] <TheMightyBuzzard> it has been. at least as long as i've been coding here. i thought the "no signoff" thing was broken because it always showed on everything for me.
[13:42:48] <Bytram> the line: "Read More... 11 comments Edit No Signoff"
[13:43:00] <Bytram> looks okay on my main browser (Pale Moon)
[13:43:14] <Bytram> but on chrome on my mobile, it floats over two physical lines on the screen
[13:43:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> ~blame
[13:43:31] * exec points at Bytram
[13:43:50] <Bytram> that looked *bad*
[13:44:02] <Bytram> so I started to pay attention when I saw the display issue and finally
[13:44:27] <Bytram> figured out that THAT status line looked fine EXCEPT when it contained "No Signoff"
[13:45:11] <Bytram> when I looked closer to try and identify / understand what was happening, that is when I found out my mental model of what "No Signoff" meant came under closer scrutiny
[13:45:42] <Bytram> to my mind "No Signoff" meant signoff==no
[13:45:56] <Bytram> now you have given me different semantics for that syntax, which helps a lot
[13:45:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> your mind is wrong.
[13:46:08] * Bytram looks around for a new one
[13:46:18] <Bytram> sorry, you're stuck with the one that I have
[13:46:27] <Bytram> so, I can adjust my mental model
[13:46:35] <Bytram> but, the display issues are a PITA
[13:46:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> damn shame i can't !grab a line i wrote. that'd be a good one to save for future use.
[13:47:09] <Bytram> I see on the first line:
[13:47:25] <Bytram> [Read More...] | n Comments
[13:47:28] <Bytram> and on the next line:
[13:47:46] <Bytram> _Edit_ | _No_Signoff_
[13:48:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> that'll likely be taken care of once we get a mobile version of the site up.
[13:48:16] <Bytram> not only on THAT line (the ones where there are no signoff)
[13:48:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> nothing much i can do about it not all fitting on one line if you don't have room.
[13:48:27] <Bytram> but it also messes up that line when there IS a signoff
[13:48:45] <Bytram> oh, there's plenty of room, it's just spaced out inordinately
[13:49:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> there's obviously not or it wouldn't be overflowing. what element is too big is another matter and one i can't troubleshoot without it happening to me.
[13:50:09] * Bytram puts phone in rotate mode
[13:50:17] * Bytram looks at screen in landscape
[13:51:13] <Bytram> now, it looks okay, mostly
[13:51:24] <Bytram> signoff / no signoff is no longer an issue
[13:51:43] <Bytram> but DO see issues when there appears an extra field "nnn words in story"
[13:51:56] <Bytram> but ONLY in that instance
[13:51:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, that has nothing to do with "no signoff" it happens in mobile chrome regardless.
[13:52:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> even as AC
[13:52:42] <Bytram> not quite...
[13:52:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> does for me
[13:52:49] <Bytram> wait.
[13:53:34] <Bytram> in portrait, all looks fine unless there exists even a single story with "No Signoff" then ALL of the stories show a two-line 'status'
[13:54:14] <Bytram> in landscpe, that goes away, unless there is "nnn words in the story" but, in THAT case, only THAT story has a two-line status... it does not bleed over into the other status lines
[13:55:53] <Bytram> also, that only happens (AFAICT atm) on the main page where the slashboxes on the LHS and RHS squeeze the amount of space available for the story column.
[13:55:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> you know who should fix that? FatPhil. he lurves being anal about page design very much lots.
[13:56:09] * Bytram ROLFMAO!
[13:56:25] <Bytram> while we are at it,
[13:56:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> #smake Bytram
[13:56:30] * MrPlow smakes Bytram upside the head with diego
[13:56:43] <Bytram> I also see layout issues on my mobile when I view journal entries
[13:57:01] * TheMightyBuzzard is currently the only active dev and has MUCH bigger issues on his plate than a layout quirk or two
[13:57:10] <Bytram> ~blame
[13:57:11] * exec points at Bytram
[13:57:16] <Bytram> nod nod
[13:57:31] <Bytram> I'm not asking you to put this ahead of other things!
[13:57:40] <Bytram> was just something that was driving me batty...
[13:57:52] <Bytram> chatting with you helped clarify in my mind what was going on.
[13:58:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> i think i will try porting the proposed mobile mode to the current css files though.
[13:58:11] <Bytram> you've known me long enough that I generally try to avoid saying "there's a bug"....
[13:58:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[13:58:35] <Bytram> I try to dig deeper and at least point at where I think the problem appears, steps to reproduce, and occasionally even offer a solution
[13:58:39] <Bytram> I'm not that far along.
[13:58:40] <Bytram> yet.
[13:58:42] <Bytram> =)
[14:01:23] * Bytram looks at: storylink;index;default
[14:01:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> it drives me batty when it's a trivial bug that's way, way down the list of stuff to fix and you QA the crap out of it anyway. i be all pulling my hair out saying "why is he saying the car could use a wax when the engine is blown?". then i get a good laugh at both of us.
[14:02:00] <Bytram> I can't tell the engine is blown, yet, because the car looks like a friggin POS and I dare not even approach it!
[14:03:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> check the issues list once in a while. we have legitimately big fish on it still.
[14:03:54] <Bytram> taken under advisement
[14:04:27] <Bytram> I can only keep track of so much stuff at one time, and work has been in a constant state of flux, so that limits the bandwidth I have available for this site.
[14:05:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> matter of fact, i'd appreciate it if you'd keep me honest on what i prioritize for fixing. occasionally i need a break to fix something trivial but otherwise i should be working on what gains us the most ground from user-perspective.
[14:05:25] <Bytram> when I find something that catches my eye, I try and gather as much information as I can about it, right then, so that should things get held off, I have left enough documentation in my wake that I can remember what was going on and not have to try and remember something from months/years ago.
[14:05:39] <Bytram> much appreciate the candor
[14:06:16] <Bytram> I would like to help out on the coding side, but lack the ability atm, and am pretty heavily loaded as it is with edity and QA stuff
[14:06:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> like the expanded notes thing should never have made the list except for its relative triviality to implement (in theory anyway)
[14:06:40] <Bytram> agreed
[14:07:26] <Bytram> what is the big problem with just changing the size of the varchar? why is it necessary to change it to text?
[14:07:42] <Bytram> I would think that varchar(8096) or somesuch would be sufficient
[14:08:28] <Bytram> backtracking a bit, at least I have a more stable internet connection with my new phone, so when I ssh in, there is less chance of my conneciton dropping within 5 minutes
[14:08:36] <Bytram> so that's a definite plus
[14:09:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> varchars are stored in ram in mysql-cluster. texts are not.
[14:09:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> and varchars have a much smaller upper limit on their size.
[14:09:42] <Bytram> ahh, I think you mentioned that before. just didn't fully register.
[14:09:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> and they count towards the maximum row width.
[14:09:58] <Bytram> maximum row width?
[14:10:06] <Bytram> do you happen to know what the limit is?
[14:10:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> yup. there's a maximum number of bytes per row. no.
[14:10:28] * Bytram chuckles
[14:11:21] <Bytram> hmmm, storylinks does not look like the right place
[14:12:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> nothing is in the right place on mobile browsers. we suck ass on mobile.
[14:12:37] <Bytram> nod nod
[14:12:49] <Bytram> but I want it to work on *my* mobile! =)
[14:13:02] <Bytram> there are a number of things that I can deal with
[14:13:07] <Bytram> and readily do accept
[14:13:40] <Bytram> but toggling between what looks like single-height and double-height really gets my attention
[14:14:17] <Bytram> and its bleeding over even when text that would otherwise be single-height also appears double-height... well that gets my curiosity going.
[14:14:32] <Bytram> and then you know what happens after that.
[14:14:40] <Bytram> =)
[14:14:43] <Bytram> ~blame
[14:14:45] * exec points at Bytram
[14:15:44] * TheMightyBuzzard sighs
[14:15:50] <Bytram> so
[14:15:52] <Bytram> long story short
[14:15:57] <Bytram> don't worry about this
[14:16:23] <Bytram> I'm just in curious-mode and drilling down arm for posterity
[14:16:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> also trying to explain that there *IS* no "standard" install of gentoo to a friend. if he wants Bell-A or Whistle-B it's by design that he has to install them.
[14:17:10] <Bytram> *groan*
[14:17:46] <Bytram> looks like the "No Signoff" is emitted in: data, index, default
[14:17:55] <TheMightyBuzzard> he don't get that it's an os for discerning linux users not a bloated piece of crap that tries to support everything possible someone might want.
[14:18:22] <Bytram> difference between optimistic vs pessimistic design
[14:18:47] <Bytram> optimistic: don't bother doing x because they will prolly not want/need it (so why bother taking up the memory/computes)
[14:19:12] <Bytram> pessimistic: OMG! We better put this in, too.. what if they try to do this and it's not already there! Horrors!
[14:19:37] * TheMightyBuzzard changes the "No Signoff" line to "No Signoff (BY YOU!!!11!1one!)"
[14:19:56] <Bytram> ROFLMAO!!!!!!1!1!!!1!!!!!!!eleventy!!111
[14:20:15] <Bytram> man, thanks for that! I needed a good laugh this AM
[14:20:31] <Bytram> one other thing
[14:20:44] <Bytram> I am not as familiar with the code base as you are... obviously
[14:20:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> yarp. i'm bout to have to get all kinds of busy, so it better not be important or time consuming.
[14:20:48] <Bytram> when I see something like this
[14:21:12] <Bytram> gives me something to get my head around and an excuse to dig into the code base and get an even better idea of what does what
[14:21:37] <Bytram> for example, I'm getting better able to know when something is likely in a template versus in the perl code
[14:21:58] <Bytram> and, occasionally, I'll need/want to take a look at the DB
[14:22:34] <Bytram> chalk it up as Bytram's long-winded, well-documented, learning experience
[14:22:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> perl's actually easier than the templates. perl is well documented.
[14:23:00] <Bytram> could be
[14:23:13] <Bytram> I have more experience reading / writing macros
[14:23:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> getting summoned to smoke breakage
[14:23:39] <Bytram> have even wirtten a few interpreter-like-thjingies
[14:23:41] <Bytram> nod nod
[14:23:50] <Bytram> before you go...
[14:23:55] <Bytram> ever program in LISP?
[14:24:18] <Bytram> break time sounds like a good plan
[14:24:32] <Bytram> coffee++
[14:24:32] <Bender> karma - coffee: 17
[14:41:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> nope. never felt the need. i could probably get competent in a week but nobody has ever offered to pay me to do so.
[14:41:48] <Bytram> nod nod
[14:42:11] <Bytram> I was exposed to LISP as one of 4 different languages in a programming course.
[14:42:27] <Bytram> (PL/I, SNOBOL, LISP, and PASCAL, IIRC)
[14:42:44] <Bytram> we forbidden from using any procedural statements
[14:42:57] <Bytram> IOW, *everything* was recursive
[14:43:07] <Bytram> was a royal pain to get my head around it at the time
[14:43:16] <Bytram> am so glad I went through that experience, now.
[14:43:38] <Bytram> is what made it pretty straightforward for me to understand templates.
[14:43:48] * TheMightyBuzzard looks at the front page and chuckles
[14:43:56] * Bytram goes to take a look
[14:44:20] <Bytram> ROFL
[14:44:26] <Bytram> ROFLMAo!!!
[14:44:45] <Bytram> did I point to the correct template?
[14:44:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> front ends probably needed that bounce anyway
[14:44:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya
[14:44:50] <Bytram> lol
[14:44:52] <Bytram> kewel!
[14:45:00] <Bytram> I'm getting there, little by slow...
[14:45:03] <Bytram> oh, wait
[14:45:11] * Bytram reloads site on his mobile
[14:45:50] * Bytram stops laughing
[14:46:01] <Bytram> now every single status line is two-lines long
[14:46:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> uniformity++
[14:46:15] <Bender> karma - uniformity: 1
[14:46:32] <Bytram> uniformity--
[14:46:33] <Bender> karma - uniformity: 0
[14:46:37] <Bytram> ;)
[14:46:42] <Bytram> consistently bad is a good thing?
[14:46:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> chicks dig a guy in uniform
[14:46:48] <Bytram> lol
[14:47:08] <Bytram> no argument, there
[14:47:34] <Bytram> ISTM, the problem lies in the style for: Signoff
[14:47:38] <Bytram> ugh
[14:47:46] <Bytram> here: <div class="storylinks">
[14:47:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> aight, i got like 15m to lazy around. gonna go find something to utterly waste it on.
[14:48:18] <Bytram> looks fine on my main (wide-screen) browser
[14:48:25] <Bytram> hm, what if I shrink the width
[14:48:49] <TheMightyBuzzard> have a mess of work to do today and only until maybe 3pm to do it.
[14:49:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> then i have entirely different work to do
[14:49:14] <Bytram> huh!
[14:49:44] <Bytram> on PM, so long as there is wnough space for the elements in that div, I can drag the RHS of my browser to the window to the left, and it all looks fine
[14:49:51] <Bytram> chrome--
[14:49:51] <Bender> karma - chrome: -1
[14:50:25] <Bytram> nod nod
[14:50:40] * Bytram chuckles again
[14:50:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> da hell? chromas passed me up
[14:51:14] <Bytram> I assume that is just in the in-memory copy? when the site next gets reloaded, that would go away?
[14:52:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> in db copy. you'd have to run template_tool to update it.
[14:54:07] <Bytram> nod nod
[14:54:12] <Bytram> heh!
[14:54:22] <Bytram> reminds me of when I was working at IBM back in the early 80's
[14:54:35] <Bytram> one of the devs modified the production system
[14:54:40] <Bytram> while it was running
[14:55:53] <Bytram> changed the status word at the bottom of the screen (READY / WAIT / BUSY) to be (READY / WAIT / CHUGGiN)
[14:56:06] <Bytram> did he ever get a chewing out!
[14:56:20] <Bytram> no sense of humor in the PHB over there.
[14:57:02] <Bytram> *we* (in development) knew what he did and how it was only a change of a few bytes in memory... the powers-that-be had a royal knipshin (sp?)
[14:57:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> aight, i'm out till prolly 8pm central 2am utc
[14:57:20] <Bytram> I think he got a formal warning written into his HR file
[14:57:25] <Bytram> k
[14:57:28] <Bytram> have a great day
[14:57:36] <Bytram> and thanks for the laugh -- very much apprecaited!
[14:57:43] <Bytram> teamwork++
[14:57:43] <Bender> karma - teamwork: 12
[14:59:41] <chromas> s/knipshin/conniption/ :D
[15:01:40] <Bytram> chromas++ thanks for that!
[15:01:40] <Bender> karma - chromas: 7
[15:01:47] <Bytram> ~define conniption
[15:01:52] <exec> conniption: unable to find definition
[15:01:56] <Bytram> lol
[15:01:59] <Bytram> #g conniption
[15:02:00] <MrPlow> https://www.merriam-webster.com - "Define conniption: a fit of rage, hysteria, or alarm — conniption in a sentence."
[15:02:00] <upstart> ^ 03Conniption | Definition of Conniption by Merriam-Webster
[15:02:19] * Bytram nods his head, sagely
[15:05:31] <Bytram> chromas: got a sec? Would like to bounce something off ya.
[15:06:27] <Bytram> do you know of any possible reason to nest a <div> element within in a div? ...
[15:06:51] <Bytram> <div class="foo"><div> <!-- stuff --> </div></div>
[15:15:29] <chromas> Isn't a div like a span but with line breaks by default?
[15:16:20] <chromas> I guess you could use that for the navigation sidebar or any time you need subdivisions
[15:17:21] <chromas> Are you letting people put divs in comments or something?
[15:19:43] <Bytram> kinda
[15:20:00] <Bytram> a div is a *block* element whereas a span is an *inline* element
[15:20:26] <Bytram> effectively, a div is preceded and followed by a line break (barring any CSS to the contrary), at least AFAIK
[15:21:07] <Bytram> this <span "style: color:blue">is blue</span> and on the same line
[15:21:28] <Bytram> this <div "style: color:blue">is blue</div> and on 3 lines, I think
[15:21:36] <Bytram> here's the context:
[15:22:12] <Bytram> it's in one of the site templates: storylink;index;default:
[15:22:14] <Bytram> <div class="storylinks">
[15:22:14] <Bytram> <div>
[15:22:14] <Bytram> <ul>
[15:22:14] <Bytram> [% FOREACH storylinks = links; IF storylinks.ref == 'ARRAY' %]
[15:22:14] <Bytram> <li [% IF storylinks.3 %]class="[% storylinks.3 %]"[% END %]>
[15:22:14] <Bytram> <a href="[% storylinks.0 | strip_attribute %]"[% IF storylinks.2 %] title="[% storylinks.2 | strip_attribute %]"[% END %]>[% storylinks.1 | strip_html %]</a>
[15:22:17] <Bytram> </li>
[15:22:19] <Bytram> [% ELSE; storylinks; END %]
[15:22:21] <Bytram> [% END %]
[15:22:23] <Bytram> </ul>
[15:22:25] <Bytram> </div>
[15:22:27] <Bytram> </div>
[15:22:57] <Bytram> the only difference I see between the outer (styled) div and the inner div is that the outer div presents with border=1
[15:23:07] * Bytram is still looking at things
[15:23:12] <chromas> Ah, so it's not a div full of divs, it's just one inside another. Yeah, that seems redundant.
[15:23:33] <Bytram> I've seen this a few times in the code base... I'm sure they would not just toss it in for giggles
[15:23:45] <Bytram> so am trying to get my head around what could possibly motivate them to DO that>
[15:23:50] <Bytram> best I can come up with
[15:24:02] <Bytram> is that they may have had variant content within the outer div
[15:24:12] <Bytram> and just wanted to make sure... I got nothin'
[15:24:13] <Bytram> or
[15:24:27] <chromas> That could be. Maybe the template put more stuff in it before.
[15:24:31] <Bytram> maybe to give another selection point for the CSS to address
[15:24:44] <Bytram> more specificity
[15:25:21] <Bytram> style the outer div mostly the way you want it to be, then do something else on the inner div to get around abrowser bug?
[15:25:36] <Bytram> hmm
[15:26:01] <Bytram> ISTR there was an issue between IE vs others in how they treated certain block elements and where the border was thought to be?
[15:26:34] <Bytram> sometimes, the border(?) was calculated as being *within* the bounding div, and other times it was treated as being external to it.
[15:26:44] <Bytram> makes a mess of counting pix
[15:27:29] <Bytram> in one browser, external width of a div with a border == width of a div without a broder
[15:27:35] <Bytram> in one browser, external width of a div with a border == width of a div without a border
[15:28:02] <Bytram> in another one, the border was deemed to make the inner div larger, so they seemed to have differnt sizes?
[15:28:07] <Bytram> does that ring a bell?
[15:28:44] <Bytram> bounding box (?)
[15:29:18] <chromas> I'm not really familiar with the differences in browser CSS support :( but it seems probable.
[15:29:29] <Bytram> nod nod
[15:29:51] <Bytram> I was able to keep up with most of the stuff for quite a while, and then they went nuts adding a whole bunch more stuff
[15:30:15] <Bytram> was doing fine through HTML 3.2 / 4.0 and even 4.01 XHTML.
[15:30:19] <chromas> Gotta turn the browser into an operating systemd. Or emacs
[15:30:28] <Bytram> what's the difference?
[15:30:29] <chromas> s/d//
[15:30:31] <exec> <chromas> Gotta turn the browser into an operating system. Or emacs
[15:30:39] <Bytram> ROFL!
[15:30:57] <chromas> One is also an editor, the other is emacs
[15:30:58] * Bytram kinda liked the original faux pas, better!
[15:31:32] <Bytram> i dunno about that... i think it is the other way around
[15:31:42] <Bytram> I find it much easier to edit text with emacs than with an OS
[15:31:44] <Bytram> otoh
[15:32:04] <chromas> I wonder if there's a vi plugin for emacs yet
[15:32:18] <Bytram> there are some things that I can do in emacs as a window into a command window that is difficult to replicate in a terminal
[15:32:22] <Bytram> prolly
[15:32:37] <Bytram> sounds brain-damaged enough that someone would do it just for the lulz
[15:32:57] <Bytram> And, I have absolutely no doubt that it would be possible
[15:33:23] * Bytram has MUCH more experience with emacs than vi
[15:33:40] <Bytram> I wonder if emacs could be implmented in vi? I seriously oubt it.
[15:33:52] <Bytram> s/ o/ do/
[15:33:54] <exec> <Bytram> I wonder if emacs could be implmented in vi? I seriously doubt it.
[15:34:24] * Bytram shudders to think of a meta vi that included emacs scripting language and al the different language modes.
[15:35:02] <chromas> First time I tried emacs I couldn't figure out how to exit, but I'm pretty sure it says how to get help (at least it does now)
[15:35:10] <Bytram> nod nod
[15:35:16] <Bytram> I had the same experience with vi
[15:35:22] <Bytram> how DO i get out of this thing?
[15:35:27] <Bytram> ^C ??
[15:35:58] <Bytram> given that I was better able to find emacs on all the systems that I was using back then than I was able to find vi, I chose emacs
[15:36:00] <chromas> Always ZZ :D
[15:36:30] <chromas> I should learn emacs; it seems more like a windows program than vi does
[15:37:18] <Bytram> also, at least at that time, adding a Ctrl or Alt modifier to a command that manipulated a *thing* would extend it to manipulating more and MORE *thing*
[15:37:38] <Bytram> ^F == forward char
[15:37:45] <Bytram> Esc F == Forward word
[15:37:52] <Bytram> that kind of stuff.
[15:38:00] <chromas> That sounds terrible.
[15:38:13] * chromas praises Jesus for the age of arrow keys.
[15:38:44] <Bytram> nah... learn the basic things you can manipulate (X axis) and the things you can do to them (y-axis) and now you have a whole plane of self-consistent commands
[15:39:11] <Bytram> toss in language modes (z-axis !) and it all falls into place
[15:39:40] <chromas> Modifiers are fine but I'm a-scared of using letters for cursor control
[15:40:01] <Bytram> well, used to have3 to do it that way in "Fundamental" mode
[15:40:16] <chromas> Arrows have modifiers too now :) ctrl-arrow, shift-arrow, ctrl-backspace (except insome windows text fields)
[15:40:26] <Bytram> but that was when things were wildly inconsistent when it came to arrow keys
[15:40:37] <Bytram> yup, that all works in emacs, now
[15:41:01] <Bytram> there's even a GUI for it, now
[15:41:11] <chromas> ew
[15:41:26] <Bytram> it took some work, but I found a way to remove some of the more space-consuming visual elements
[15:41:35] <chromas> Oh yeah, last time I tried emacs it also installed a fugly gui with aliased fonts
[15:41:58] <Bytram> i still leave in the Fite / Edit / Buffers / Tools / etc. / Help toolbar, tho
[15:42:15] <chromas> Hehe, #fite
[15:42:24] <Bytram> takes minimal space and can be handy in a pinch when my mental resources are strained
[15:42:38] <Bytram> what about #fite?
[15:43:18] <chromas> I was poking fun at your menu
[15:43:26] * chromas wonders if EDIT.COM from DOS could be ported to Linux
[15:43:46] <Bytram> I would not be surprised if it already WAS
[15:44:21] <Bytram> only problem is in order to use it, you'd have to launch a VM. ;)
[15:44:44] <Bytram> bio break... biab
[15:45:59] <chromas> Looks like there's a few similar editors, like fte.
[15:46:50] <chromas> and FreePascal's Turbo Pascal-like editor.
[15:47:09] * chromas prepares to step into DOS plebhood.
[15:51:17] * Bytram started w/ PC-DOS 3.0
[15:51:57] * Bytram found copies of earlier versions that he might have played with but they were so constrained quickly gave THAT up
[15:51:58] <chromas> Looks like fte's last update is old enough to drive.
[15:52:07] <Bytram> *chuckles*
[15:55:27] <Bytram> heh... looks like there is a CSS selector thing going on ... found this in the pwnies theme:
[15:55:29] <Bytram> div.storylinks div ul {
[15:56:17] <chromas> Hm, but you guys created that theme, right?
[15:58:08] <Bytram> well I'm one of "the guys" in the *group* that created the theme.
[16:19:24] <Bytram> #g ogg
[16:19:25] <MrPlow> http://airports.hawaii.gov - "Welcome to the Official Kahului Airport (OGG) Website. Kahului Airport is the primary airport on the island of Maui and receives both overseas and interisland flights. On Maui you'll find beautiful beaches, exciting water sports, Haleakala Crater, the old whaling town of Lahaina, blue skies, great dining and the Aloha spirit."
[16:19:27] <upstart> ^ 03Kahului Airport
[16:19:29] <Bytram> lol
[16:19:33] <Bytram> #g ogg vorbis
[16:19:33] <MrPlow> https://en.wikipedia.org - "Vorbis is a free and open-source software project headed by the Xiph.Org Foundation. The project produces an audio coding format and software reference encoder/decoder (codec) for lossy audio compression. Vorbis is most commonly used in conjunction with the Ogg container format and it is therefore often referred to ..."
[16:19:34] <upstart> ^ 03Vorbis - Wikipedia
[16:26:29] <chromas> xiph.org
[16:27:29] <Bytram> mare see
[16:28:05] * chromas whinnies
[16:32:30] * Bytram neighs
[16:35:29] * Bytram yawns
[16:35:29] * MrPlow flips a Skittle into Bytram's gaping mouth