#staff | Logs for 2014-03-22

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[00:04:13] <MrBluze> hmm.. i wonder what has happened to some of the submission emails
[00:04:47] <stderr> I'm tired of this shit. I'm going to play with some of my own stuff instead...
[00:05:00] <mrcoolbp> stderr?
[00:05:08] <mrcoolbp> MrBluze: don't worry about it
[00:05:33] <mrcoolbp> I need to make/eat dinner and write this proposal in the next hour somehow
[00:05:39] <mrcoolbp> don't need to add the names
[00:06:07] <stderr> mrcoolbp?
[00:06:19] <mrcoolbp> "I'm tired of this shit. I'm going to play with some of my own stuff instead..."
[00:06:31] <stderr> Yes.
[00:06:35] <mrcoolbp> regarding?
[00:06:52] <stderr> I'm tired of wasting my time for no reason.
[00:07:17] <stderr> So now I'm going to code some stuff for myself instead.
[00:07:36] <mrcoolbp> okay...
[00:07:45] <mrcoolbp> was it something we said?
[00:08:13] <MrBluze> brb
[00:08:44] <stderr> Just tired of working on stuff that's clearly not going to be used anyway. Tired of not getting clear answers when I ask about something. Tired of stuff not happening that could have happened a long time ago.
[00:08:47] <stderr> Just tired...
[00:09:04] <mrcoolbp> no one said it would be easy, we are all tired
[00:09:14] <mrcoolbp> what have you been working on?
[00:09:35] <NCommander> stderr, working on what stuff?
[00:10:04] <stderr> Well, I was working on a web interface for devotee to see how easy it would be to include it in slashcode.
[00:10:42] <stderr> I have a feeling the IRC cloak stuff isn't going to be used anyway.
[00:10:49] <xlefay> stderr: yes it will
[00:11:01] <xlefay> I'm going to implement it on the linode, you have my word on that
[00:11:12] * NCommander will get xlefay a linode tonight or tomorrow
[00:11:13] <mrcoolbp> stderr: how is the devotee thing working out?
[00:11:21] <stderr> xlefay: I'll believe it when I see it, not before...
[00:11:29] <NCommander> Trying to nail down this SSL bug
[00:11:43] <mrcoolbp> stderr: hadn't heard back from you since last night (I worked for the last 10 hours)
[00:11:54] <xlefay> stderr: that's fine, you will see ;-)
[00:12:02] <stderr> mrcoolbp: A list of the options, a drop down menu or a text box next to each one.
[00:12:30] <mrcoolbp> does it use JS?
[00:12:35] <stderr> mrcoolbp: I have been online as stdhell most of the day.
[00:12:56] -!- robind has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[00:13:02] <stderr> mrcoolbp: I was planing on using a little bit, but decided not to.
[00:13:06] <mrcoolbp> well I can't be online at my job 90% of the time, sorry if I missed something
[00:13:14] <NCommander> ....
[00:13:15] <NCommander> # To make your Slash installation more secure, create a file at
[00:13:15] <NCommander> # /usr/local/slash/slash.salts which contains password salt for
[00:13:15] <NCommander> # each of your Slash site virtual users. A site only needs one
[00:13:15] <NCommander> # salt, so your initial setup should contain one scalar value.
[00:13:15] <NCommander> # Later, if there is a security issue such as a vulnerability
[00:13:17] <NCommander> # that allows user password MD5's to be read from your database,
[00:13:19] <NCommander> # or a no-longer-trusted employee being dismissed, you should
[00:13:21] <NCommander> # append another scalar onto the list.
[00:13:23] <NCommander> WHY THE FUCK ISN'T THAT IN THE README!
[00:13:27] <mrcoolbp> stderr: I was wating to hear back from you
[00:13:33] * NCommander bangs head repeatively
[00:13:35] <stderr> mrcoolbp: About?
[00:14:01] <mrcoolbp> devotee, why would you think we wouldn't use it?
[00:15:15] <stderr> mrcoolbp: I said yesterday that I wouldn't have time to code on it today at work, cause the whole department is moving and I needed to pack up all my computer stuff, so the boxes would be ready for the move monday.
[00:15:45] <mrcoolbp> okay...I'm confused...
[00:16:02] <stderr> At the same time I said, I would continue coding when I got home, but it seems you have decided to use something else instead, so no need for me to code anyway.
[00:16:13] <mrcoolbp> this is just an interim solution
[00:16:24] <mrcoolbp> audioguy insisted on setting it up for this vote
[00:16:32] <mrcoolbp> devotee would be more of a long-term solution
[00:17:28] <stderr> Do whatever you want, I don't really care anymore...
[00:17:34] * mrcoolbp notes that you didn't respond to my email about wanting to be in on the name-change-vote-plan team
[00:17:43] <mrcoolbp> I would have kept you in the loop more
[00:17:52] -!- Cyprus [Cyprus!~Bob@216.129.llu.sjr] has joined #staff
[00:18:20] <mrcoolbp> stderr: again I'm not sure what I did to annoy you
[00:18:29] <stderr> mrcoolbp: I haven't seen an email from you about signing up for a name-change-vote-plan team, so that's probably the reason you haven't heard back on that on...
[00:18:47] <xlefay> ^ I haven't either
[00:18:48] <stderr> mrcoolbp: I didn't say you annoyed me...
[00:19:44] <stderr> It's not something that suddenly happened. I have been getting more and more tired of all of this for a while.
[00:19:48] <mrcoolbp> I thought you volunteered to look into the devotee thing, we are looking into a lot of options
[00:20:01] * mrcoolbp goes to check the emails
[00:20:58] <mrcoolbp> I sent an email to staff on thursday with the subject: Name Change Voting - Need help
[00:21:07] <stderr> We made the short list of domain names a long time ago it seems, but since then nothing have happened... We haven't even decided on the freaking voting system yet.
[00:21:21] <mrcoolbp> stderr, did you not read the rest of that email thread?
[00:21:28] <mrcoolbp> the staff vetoed that list
[00:21:36] * MrBluze sighs
[00:22:05] <stderr> mrcoolbp: I think I have read all of that thread, yes.
[00:22:27] <mrcoolbp> that's why I've been scrabling to plan a proper restart on that effort
[00:22:31] <mrcoolbp> scrambling
[00:22:48] <mrcoolbp> I asked for help in the above email
[00:22:54] <mrcoolbp> only audioguy responded
[00:23:04] <stderr> The list being vetoed so long after it was made is just one of the things that's getting me tired...
[00:23:07] <mrcoolbp> I was literally ABOUT to write another email to staff with our proposal
[00:23:23] <mrcoolbp> stderr: the list was made in great haste
[00:23:33] <mrcoolbp> due to the drama about B selling the domain
[00:23:34] <stderr> Why wasn't the list vetoed a week ago?
[00:23:48] <mrcoolbp> I don't know
[00:23:57] <mrcoolbp> I'm just trying to get thing s moving again
[00:24:12] <stderr> Great...
[00:24:15] <mrcoolbp> I wasn't the one that vetoed it
[00:24:22] <MrBluze> who did veto it
[00:24:36] <stderr> The list I saw in the emails wasn't even the list we had decided on in the first place.
[00:24:39] <mrcoolbp> a few people mentioned they weren't included in the vote in the first place
[00:24:51] <mrcoolbp> which is a legitimate complaint
[00:24:57] <mrcoolbp> it was done in IRC
[00:25:14] <mrcoolbp> again BECAUSE we were afraid we were about to lose the domain
[00:25:35] <stderr> Yes... Wouldn't have been nice if they had complaint around the time the list was made, not such a long time later.
[00:25:54] <stderr> I know, it was done on IRC. I was there.
[00:26:17] <MrBluze> all names that were included at the time were ones that did not have a unanimous no vote
[00:26:40] <MrBluze> but again i am not fixated on this, i dont really mind at all - as long as we decide something in the end
[00:27:40] <stderr> mrcoolbp: But anyway, the name change isn't the only thing. It's lots of little things. I just feel I can spend my time more productive, if I work on something else for a while.
[00:28:10] <stderr> Most of what's annoying me is not getting any clear answers.
[00:28:18] <MrBluze> i confess i have not been much help at all due to being busy with my actual day job which has been overwhelmingly busy for weeks now
[00:28:29] <mrcoolbp> stderr: clear answers on what?
[00:28:56] <stderr> Like why we want to be a US-based non-profit and not based somewhere else.
[00:28:59] <MrBluze> stderr: agreed momentum has stalled due to various crises and fatigue
[00:29:15] <stderr> Like my question about me being in the SysAdmin team or not.
[00:29:25] <stderr> Lots of questions...
[00:29:38] <xlefay> stderr: as far as I can tell, you were told yes (although, a nailgun was involved)
[00:30:02] <mrcoolbp> yeah I saw that too...
[00:30:08] * xlefay sneezes the roof of his house
[00:30:15] <mrcoolbp> stderr: Ncommander is trying to nail the site down from attacks
[00:30:27] <mrcoolbp> his next task will be the NFP business stuff
[00:30:49] <stderr> xlefay: That's also what I thought... But I haven't been asked for a ssh pub key and haven't been told where to log in or anything else... As I said, no clear answers.
[00:31:12] <mrcoolbp> did you ask NCommander?
[00:31:18] <stderr> mrcoolbp: Yes.
[00:31:38] <xlefay> stderr: I think one of the first concerns is setting up LDAP, it took me a while to get access to (well, ok, not that long but still a day or so)
[00:31:48] <xlefay> I can provide you with access to the SVC box if you like
[00:32:12] * NCommander swears repeatively
[00:32:13] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: you asked us to flog you if you mess something up?
[00:32:31] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: did you want to help out stderr here?
[00:32:32] <stderr> xlefay: To be honest, I'm not sure if I want to continue or not...
[00:32:47] <mrcoolbp> well stderr that's your puroggative
[00:33:21] <mrcoolbp> s/did you want to/could you/
[00:33:22] <xlefay> stderr: I won't deny that a lot of things are messed up, but it does feel like we're cleaning it up one by one. If you do stop, I hope you'll return later on. :)
[00:33:59] <stderr> xlefay: I might.
[00:34:41] <MrBluze> .. this project is like marrying someone who has been married before
[00:34:48] <NCommander> MrBluze, did I break something?
[00:34:52] <xlefay> LOL
[00:34:52] <MrBluze> takes a lot of patience
[00:35:09] <MrBluze> huh? u never broke anything that wasnt broken before lol
[00:36:07] <MrBluze> stderr: i thought u were sysadmin the whole time.. i must be confused
[00:36:14] <xlefay> It'd be so awesome if NC were to answer like the XKCD "It's kind of you to say that, but I know what I did."
[00:36:45] <stderr> MrBluze: You might be confused because I asked a long time ago...
[00:37:04] <xlefay> for anyone missing the reference: http://xkcd.com
[00:37:41] * MrBluze grins i remember that one xlefay
[00:37:46] * NCommander notes he's trying to put the site back together
[00:37:48] <xlefay> ;)
[00:37:52] <NCommander> Balancing life/work/shit is not easy
[00:37:56] <MrBluze> agreed
[00:38:22] <MrBluze> stderr: i thought of throwing in my geek card except i believe that eventually i will be able to contribute properly
[00:39:01] <MrBluze> if i end up with no role, i'll just submit articles, etc
[00:39:13] <NCommander> xlefay, [Fri Mar 21 23:39:06 2014] [error] :Slash::Utility::Environment:/srv/soylentnews.org/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.10.1/x86_64-linux/Slash/Utility/Environment.pm:683:cannot getSkin for empty skid='' ;; Which was called by:Slash::Apache:/srv/soylentnews.org/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.10.1/x86_64-linux/Slash/Apache.pm:359
[00:39:20] <NCommander> I know this is related to our blasted skin issue
[00:39:21] <xlefay> So it's related
[00:39:23] <NCommander> And I fixed this stupid bug
[00:39:37] <stderr> MrBluze: As I said, I might be back later. For now I want to do something else instead.
[00:39:57] <NCommander> Ugh
[00:39:59] <NCommander> Ok, I remember
[00:39:59] <xlefay> hmm, figured as much after you mentioned it
[00:40:28] <NCommander> stderr, you're welcome to return later if you so choose. I'd be sad to see you go but ...
[00:40:41] <xlefay> ^ exactly that
[00:40:58] <xlefay> minus the 'but' at the end
[00:41:11] <stderr> NCommander: ... but you're not going to answer my question anyway, so whatever.
[00:41:44] <NCommander> stderr, what question?
[00:41:45] <MrBluze> stderr: stay in touch
[00:41:49] <NCommander> Sorry, I'm only partially on IRC
[00:42:00] <NCommander> stderr, ah
[00:42:01] <stderr> NCommander: Try reading up a page or two...
[00:42:14] <NCommander> stderr, ok, right now, to get you on the boxes requires putting the key in three places
[00:42:19] <NCommander> due to the way the proxy goes
[00:42:28] <NCommander> I'm only adding people who explicately need access right now until LDAP goes up
[00:42:32] <NCommander> Because its a fucking pain
[00:43:19] <NCommander> stderr, for the name change vote thing, mrcoolbp was leading up options on that, and was looking for volunteers on it
[00:44:41] <NCommander> stderr, as for setting up the NFP int he United States, I thought I answered that in the email
[00:44:47] <NCommander> The short reason is that we'd need it no matter what
[00:45:01] <stderr> I thought me saying that I was working on a web interface for Devotee to see how easy it would be to include it in Slashcode would be hint enough that I was interested in the vote thing team thingie...
[00:45:01] <NCommander> US tax law requires that you be a local 501(c)(3) charity to be tax deductable for US citizens
[00:45:14] <NCommander> Because unlike the rest of the world, US taxes on citizenship, and not country of residence
[00:45:38] <mrcoolbp> stderr: I sent the email to all staff...
[00:45:43] <NCommander> Furthermore, we can be presented as a legal entity as soon as the bylaws are written
[00:45:48] <stderr> NCommander: "we'd need it no matter what"... Says who?
[00:45:50] <NCommander> Even before 501(c)(3) status
[00:45:50] <mrcoolbp> wanted to go through proper channels
[00:45:58] <NCommander> stderr, do you want to accept donations from US citizens?
[00:46:05] <NCommander> I won't be able to donate easily since I'm a US citizen
[00:46:11] <stderr> Yes, that would be nice.
[00:46:36] <NCommander> stderr, I'm not object to forming a NFP in another country
[00:47:00] <stderr> You would be able to donate... You might not be able to deduct anything on your taxes... That's NOT the same thing.
[00:47:13] <NCommander> stderr, ok, where do you want the NFP?
[00:47:41] <stderr> I don't know... It was never up for discussion.
[00:47:58] <mrcoolbp> there's been a ton of discussion
[00:47:58] <MrBluze> cayman islands
[00:48:14] <NCommander> stderr, there's been a fair bit on the mailing list. This is the first objection on it being in the United States actually.
[00:48:21] <mrcoolbp> there was a story on main site, the swarm of staff email threads....
[00:49:17] <stderr> NCommander: This is not the first time I ask why it should be US-based. You even gave a half answer some days ago.
[00:49:31] <MrBluze> stderr: it's convenient for ppl who are in the US
[00:49:32] <mrcoolbp> NCommmandr: I don't think that's true, there was some mention of it somewhere
[00:49:43] <MrBluze> just like the timezone when most of the discussion happens is convenient for them
[00:49:56] * NCommander re-checks the list
[00:50:39] <stderr> MrBluze: Does that mean we forget everyone else?
[00:51:05] <mrcoolbp> guys I gotta run...be back in 4 hours
[00:51:11] <MrBluze> no
[00:51:18] <MrBluze> i am in australia, thats why im saying it .. i dont think they notice
[00:51:19] <stderr> NCommander: Among other things we were talking about freedom of press...
[00:51:23] -!- prospectacle [prospectacle!~3a6b4c99@g98-792-85-862.mit871.act.optusnet.com.au] has joined #staff
[00:51:38] <NCommander> stderr, which is stillv ery strong in the United States.
[00:51:46] <stderr> ... and elsewhere too.
[00:52:03] <MrBluze> stderr: agreed, and stronger than ever on .onion ;0
[00:53:26] <NCommander> stderr, can you cite specific concerns? I'm not against incorperation elsewhere, but that makes an already complicated situation even more so
[00:53:44] <mrcoolbp> BBL
[00:53:44] -!- mrcoolbp has quit []
[00:54:42] <MrBluze> hmm
[00:54:46] <stderr> NCommander: A lot of us would very much like to NOT be based in the US. A lot of us really don't like for the servers to be located in the US.
[00:54:50] <MrBluze> it might make incorporation simpler actually
[00:55:13] <NCommander> MrBluze, the problem is that most countries require that incorperation either be done by a citizen, or a permament resident with approiate visa
[00:55:32] <NCommander> prospectacle, which was a problem under the old leadership
[00:55:33] <MrBluze> ok
[00:55:34] <stderr> But it seems I'm the only one who's going to say something publicly about it and since I'm going to work on something else for a while, I guess you can just forget I even mentioned it.
[00:55:59] <NCommander> stderr, I'm willing to discuss it at length, and even change plans if it is a viable alternative. The discuss is open on the list
[00:56:19] <stderr> What was a problem under the old leadership? Not all of us have op...
[00:56:32] <NCommander> stderr, an inability to make decisions.
[00:57:05] * MrBluze notes that US is not considered to be a free country by an increasing number of people outside the US
[00:57:30] * NCommander notes he left the United States long before SN was a thing
[00:58:39] <NCommander> prospectacle, we're organized under the incident command system. team leads have say on their division, I have final say on all matters.
[00:58:53] * NCommander can overrule a team lead if necessary, but hasn't had to
[00:59:56] <NCommander> stderr, can you bring this up on the staff list so it doesn't get overlooked?
[01:00:07] * NCommander notes that if its on IRC, it gets lost, and it happens way too frequently
[01:02:10] <NCommander> prospectacle, the staff mailing list
[01:03:12] <stderr> NCommander: I could, but since I already said I'm planning on working on some of my own projects for a while, it might be a better idea, if one of the more active members took it to the mailing list.
[01:03:22] <stderr> (Someone should give prospectacle voice...)
[01:03:27] <NCommander> .voice prospectacle
[01:03:27] -!- mode/#staff [+v prospectacle] by SkyNet
[01:03:29] <NCommander> Sorry
[01:03:33] <prospectacle> NCommander, is that a suitable tool to use as a reference? E.g. to lookup an answer to an operational question that has already been decided?
[01:03:53] <xlefay> prospectacle: next time identify for your nick ;-)
[01:03:54] <NCommander> prospectacle, there's an archive available. I'm also trying to get a regular staff meeting re-established
[01:04:00] <prospectacle> xlefay, sorry
[01:05:31] <prospectacle> NCommander, you mentioned that things get lost on IRC, for which there is also archive. I think there's a similar problem with email. A central, clear, canonical reference is probably needed.
[01:07:40] <NCommander> prospectacle, with a centralized mailing list?
[01:08:19] <NCommander> The two methods that I find generally work are either meetings on IRC or mailing lists
[01:08:54] <MrBluze> a simple approach would be to make the whole thing US only lol
[01:09:28] <prospectacle> NCommander, thats good for discussion and even making decisions, but if it's not clearly recorded in a structured, authoritative format, then anyone who was busy and doesn't have time to read all archives, will not know what's happening. Even people who were present may not be 100% clear.
[01:09:56] <NCommander> prospectacle, then what do you propose?
[01:10:47] <prospectacle> NCommander: for example: a private wiki page that is the final say, and clear rules for who should edit which parts.
[01:11:09] <prospectacle> Then sdterr can look up "polling system" and see "audioguy is making one for the name poll"
[01:11:16] <prospectacle> if that in fact is the decision.
[01:11:46] <prospectacle> nothing that's not on that page, is officially a task for anyone.
[01:12:15] <NCommander> prospectacle, in theory, it sounds good, but would you honestly religiously check that page? We had the forums for awhile, and we had the problem that most of us never checked it.
[01:12:33] * NCommander is mulling on it, that wasn't me just saying "yeah but"
[01:12:52] <xlefay> As far as I know that particular idea was just that, an idea. I expect (if stderr still works it out) that the idea is to be weighted against stderr's idea.
[01:12:55] <xlefay> .voice Cyprus
[01:12:55] -!- mode/#staff [+v Cyprus] by SkyNet
[01:13:03] <xlefay> this wasn't a decision that was made yet either
[01:13:13] <xlefay> these were merely plans that were to be submitted to the list for review
[01:13:57] <prospectacle> NCommander. Any staff-wide systems is only useful if people use it, but at some point someone has to say "This is the system we're using for current operational status, everything else is a meeting"
[01:14:09] <prospectacle> xlefay: Right I'm not saying it shoudl be one or the other, I'm saying people should know if it is, or if it isn't.
[01:14:39] <NCommander> prospectacle, hrm ...
[01:14:46] * NCommander is deciding if a wiki is the best way to do this
[01:14:53] <NCommander> There was talk of having a staff-slash
[01:15:02] * NCommander wonders if that might be a better way to handle it
[01:15:27] <prospectacle> NCommander: wiki just one example, you're right staff-slash would work, too. Anything that people know is the one true system for answering questions of what is and isn't decided.
[01:15:30] <Cyprus> [19:12:48] <Cyprus> i think what he's getting at is communication media are not documentation systems
[01:15:52] <Cyprus> is why Xlefay decided to voice me for those that were wondering
[01:16:09] <NCommander> prospectacle, its a good point
[01:16:14] * NCommander can see what you mean
[01:19:05] <MrBluze> anything other than IRC lacks speed
[01:19:14] <MrBluze> and is more suited to a mature or slow moving project
[01:19:14] * prospectacle is a robot from the future where pipedot rules with an iron fist. Don't let it happen!
[01:19:19] <NCommander> MrBluze, yeah, but IRC doesn't work that great
[01:19:25] <NCommander> cause shit gets missed
[01:19:29] <MrBluze> it does
[01:19:38] <MrBluze> IRC is like a lunchroom
[01:19:48] <MrBluze> all the world's problems are solved in a lunchroom, several times a day
[01:19:50] <prospectacle> MrBluze: irc is good for discussing, even sometimes deciding things, but not for knowing what is decided and what is needed.
[01:20:02] <MrBluze> prospectacle: for that u need governance
[01:20:09] <MrBluze> and we still lack it because of timezones mainly
[01:20:42] <Cyprus> his point is that you don't go listen to audio tapes of the meetings 3 weeks from now for info, you look at the documentation / status board
[01:20:55] <Cyprus> 1 place, authorative, current
[01:21:01] <prospectacle> MrBluze, true, but that's not an insurmountable problem: step 1- clarity of existing decisions for all, step 2 - clarity on how new decisions are made (internally).
[01:21:25] <MrBluze> Cyprus: yes
[01:21:36] <MrBluze> so: from now on, Incident command requires appointing of a chair and secretary
[01:21:45] <MrBluze> secretary documents the process and publishes it
[01:21:48] <prospectacle> Step 3: not for profit!
[01:21:52] <MrBluze> fixed
[01:22:34] <xlefay> MrBluze: well... technically, that proposal should first be submitted to the mailing list, to see what others think of it
[01:22:48] <MrBluze> ofc
[01:22:59] <MrBluze> but it might be just enough to get this sorted
[01:23:12] <MrBluze> then u can discuss / manage an incident on whatever medium suits that problem best
[01:23:26] <MrBluze> but the documentation goes in the register of minutes
[01:23:28] <xlefay> I'm not following this convo very strictly atm tho
[01:23:53] <MrBluze> .. which can be a wiki
[01:24:11] <Cyprus> minutes are useful, but not the same thing
[01:24:52] <MrBluze> .. they are definitive if: a decision is made, the right people are there, and the votes are documented - it can then be put forward for ratification
[01:25:02] <MrBluze> and they are useful to show if a meeting is invalid
[01:25:06] <NCommander> brb
[01:25:48] <Cyprus> minutes are absolutely useful for what you just said, but they aren't what you want to use for information / documentation of a project
[01:26:30] <Cyprus> you dont want to read 3 meetings worth of minutes to look for an answer, you want to go to 1 place for authorative documentation that is current
[01:26:31] <xlefay> You know.. we could also just submit motions or whatever you want to call them on a wiki, then have people discuss that "motion", we can add whatever information we want, etc..
[01:26:37] <xlefay> wouldn't be a bad option tbh
[01:27:10] <prospectacle> You need the equivalent of a big whiteboard with the definitive (current) map of tasks. Everything else is just meetings (which are important, of course).
[01:27:53] <Cyprus> if you want to see the difference, go read ARIN minutes / PPML as compared to their bylaws, and policy. If you can figure out what policy is at this moment by reading just the minutes, i'll buy you lunch =)
[01:29:10] <MrBluze> ..
[01:29:19] <MrBluze> if minutes of a meeting are ratified, and decisions are made
[01:29:31] <MrBluze> the secretary (delegate of NC) puts that in the wiki
[01:29:35] <MrBluze> and it becomes policy
[01:30:19] <xlefay> I think you're over thinking this, the biggest issue is information.
[01:30:21] <MrBluze> and the incident command system can be the way these meetings are organized etc
[01:30:43] <xlefay> So, have a staff wiki, put all the information that's relevant on there - regarding discussions, talks, meetings, whatnot, facts, invalid facts, etc.
[01:30:52] -!- mode/#staff [-v Cyprus] by SkyNet
[01:31:18] <MrBluze> problem with it, xlefay is people can veto anything by coming up with some kind of criticism .. everything is able to be criticized, and if critics ruled the world we would be living in caves still
[01:32:23] <xlefay> MrBluze: doesn't mean their voices should go unheard. My thought here is, have a wiki, which works in conjunction with the mailing list. e.g. someone supplies new information on the list and that information is verified as factual, add it; etc. Most of us do fact checking on things others write, don't we?
[01:32:46] <MrBluze> yeah i guess
[01:32:55] <MrBluze> the mailing list makes my brain hurt already it's so long lol
[01:33:20] <xlefay> That's the easiest way by far to just make it work instead of over complicating it; the wiki will keep a list of revisions, changes, we can see who did what, people can add reasons for what to do (iirc); etc.
[01:34:07] <xlefay> The kiss principle comes in mind in this matter
[01:34:51] <xlefay> <- away
[01:35:05] <MrBluze> xlefay: yes the project secretary manages the wiki
[01:35:34] <MrBluze> and incident commands appoint their secretaries who report the incident management decisions to the project sec, who puts it on the wiki and keeps it nice and tidy
[01:35:52] <xlefay> no, anyone should be able to. We have revisions, etc.... let people add information they feel is required; otherwise you'll get situations where information is left out
[01:36:05] <xlefay> e.g. the recent incident where stderr's efforts were left out, etc
[01:36:17] <MrBluze> that was because no one was documenting properly
[01:36:25] <MrBluze> no one had that task
[01:36:31] <xlefay> one person documenting things will _always_ go wrong
[01:36:46] <MrBluze> better than zero
[01:37:19] <xlefay> But better yet, more than one. Just make simple, easy rules for editing that staff wiki (if we even vote to have such a thing); and let all staff be able to contribute
[01:37:20] <MrBluze> a documentation project is kind of like being a librarian
[01:37:24] <xlefay> like I said, we have revisions, etc..
[01:38:08] <MrBluze> ok, that is fine - its a minor difference
[01:38:19] <MrBluze> i have to go take the kids out otherwise they kill me
[01:38:45] <xlefay> :)
[01:38:49] <xlefay> Good luck :p
[01:39:10] <stderr> xlefay: One problem with the wiki is that (due to spam) some of the pages are locked so you can edit them.
[01:39:23] <xlefay> stderr: it'd be a private wiki for staff only
[01:39:53] <xlefay> regarding discussions, that'll only contain information - like a quick way to figure out something regarding a matter
[01:40:10] <xlefay> e.g. "Who's working on XYZ", it'd be in there, etc.
[01:40:47] <MrBluze> a decision needs to have: commander / secretary / wording of the decision / who voted / who was present, as a linked reference.
[01:41:08] <xlefay> In the case of the voting thing, it'd say "stderr <link to another wiki page where you write whatever you feel like you should share>" and "audioguy <another link>"
[01:41:08] <MrBluze> even if it's just 3 ppl
[01:42:05] <stderr> The wiki also has to be organized a bit better, so the "same" information isn't located in different places, like the two lists of members of the dev team that wasn't in sync.
[01:42:31] <xlefay> Let's be practical now. For the staff to really work, sure there's a need for someone who can have a final say, but that won't work well if NC for instance were to invoke it often
[01:42:31] <MrBluze> stderr: we need a librarian
[01:42:43] <MrBluze> wiki person
[01:43:26] <MrBluze> well we just say a decision is a decision if the incident commander is properly appointed and the people on the team were the right number, and the decision was within their scope
[01:44:27] <stderr> I tried to merge the two "dev team" lists earlier today, so there would only be one list that could be included on both pages... I haven't checked if that include thingie was done or if there's now three lists on the wiki... :-)
[01:44:49] <xlefay> stderr: hah that reminds me of the "standards" XKCD
[01:45:08] <MrBluze> administratium
[01:45:58] <MrBluze> http://www.lhup.edu
[01:47:28] <stderr> Hmm... Others got the same idea I just got, back in september... But they only got the .com domain, not the .org and .net
[01:47:39] <MrBluze> lol yes
[01:47:45] <MrBluze> i just looked too
[01:48:14] <stderr> I don't think you know what my idea is... :-)
[01:48:31] <MrBluze> oh, i just looked at administratium.org
[01:48:47] <stderr> But if you want some more ideas for "yet-another-list-of-domain-names", let me know...
[01:49:01] <stderr> MrBluze: Nope, that wasn't the one I was thinking of...
[01:49:07] <MrBluze> ohhh
[01:49:21] <MrBluze> well, it could be any of an infinity of ideas then
[01:49:34] <stderr> Close but a bit more "nerdy"...
[01:50:15] <stderr> Or rather nerdi because it looks weird with a y...
[01:50:21] <MrBluze> ahh got
[01:50:27] -!- prospectacle has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[01:56:39] MrBluze is now known as MrBluze|afk
[01:57:28] * stderr switches to idle-lurk-mode...
[02:00:54] -!- Cyprus has quit [Quit: ThrashIRC v2.9 sic populo comunicated]
[02:17:49] -!- Cyprus [Cyprus!~Bob@216.129.llu.sjr] has joined #staff
[02:20:00] -!- Cyprus has quit [Client Quit]
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[02:46:58] <paulej72> NCommander and xlefay I have restyled the buttons for the site to have less roundness. If you update to the merge I did today, you will see the better looking buttons.
[02:49:40] <NCommander> paulej72, I'll pull that later
[03:48:52] -!- bytram [bytram!~pc@Soylent/Staff/Developer/martyb] has joined #staff
[03:48:52] -!- mode/#staff [+v bytram] by SkyNet
[03:51:18] <bytram> resuming link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 2822 of 13775 URLs (20%) done
[03:54:57] <paulej72> bytram: are you doing penetration testing
[03:56:12] <bytram> paulej72, not penetration... it's a link spider that tries all links on a page; gets those pages and tries the links on those pages; repeats until done.
[03:56:54] <paulej72> bytram: you will then have a report with the 404 and other errors correct
[03:57:13] <bytram> ta dah! yes indeed!
[03:57:52] <bytram> (windows only) take a look at: http://home.snafu.de and get it here: http://home.snafu.de
[03:57:56] <paulej72> can you also find out if there are different versions of login being hit by pages?
[03:58:55] <paulej72> I am afraid that some of the pages my be coded to go to different version of the login depending on who coded that page.
[03:59:24] <paulej72> Also are you hitting the admin pages?
[03:59:35] * NCommander whacks paulej72 for using Outlook on mac!
[03:59:38] <NCommander> icky :-P
[03:59:42] <xlefay> rofl
[03:59:50] <bytram> I'm going in as an AC; not hitting admin at all.
[04:00:04] <paulej72> NCommander: need it for work unfortunately
[04:00:27] <bytram> paulej72, how would I know that I *am* hitting "different versions of the login page"; what makes them different?
[04:00:39] * NCommander is fiddling with LDAP
[04:00:48] <paulej72> bytram: we should probably do that as well.
[04:01:28] <paulej72> bytram: but maybe not dev, we could sacrifice slashcott
[04:01:53] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 3709 of 17322 URLs (21%) done
[04:02:05] <paulej72> NCommander: was my key received in good order?
[04:08:29] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 4266 of 19226 URLs (21%) done
[04:08:47] <xlefay> bytram: you remember that one IP I gave you to connect to?
[04:09:24] <bytram> xlefay, ummm, not really... but I could probably find it if I had to.
[04:09:36] <xlefay> No, just forget about it - the server's destroyed now
[04:09:42] <xlefay> (it was already being phased out)
[04:10:00] <xlefay> s/\'s//
[04:13:22] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 5039 of 21686 URLs (23%) done
[04:13:41] <paulej72> it made some progress
[04:13:43] <xlefay> paulej72: did you receive my reply on github regarding an issue?
[04:14:19] <paulej72> I did but I did not digest it yet. Will look at it now.
[04:15:18] <bytram> paulej72, yup, it found more to do than it got done! =)
[04:15:59] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 5500 of 23460 URLs (23%) done
[04:17:12] <paulej72> xlefay: this was an old issue from FF that i copied over. If Bender is tweeting, we do not have that on the home page list of links. We should put that there and then we can close that isssue
[04:17:39] <xlefay> paulej72: sounds good to me, will you take care of that?
[04:17:50] <xlefay> https://github.com <- can be closed now (I don't have permission to do so)
[04:18:07] <paulej72> IS there a Facebook page?
[04:18:38] <paulej72> 53 closed
[04:18:39] <xlefay> I believe so, and I believe things to twitter get posted to fb
[04:19:04] <xlefay> guess not
[04:19:13] -!- FunPika has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[04:19:35] <paulej72> xlefay: what are the urls
[04:19:58] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 6000 of 25090 URLs (23%) done
[04:20:02] <xlefay> paulej72: I was wrong about the FB
[04:20:07] <xlefay> https://twitter.com
[04:24:17] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 6500 of 27043 URLs (24%) done
[04:25:23] <paulej72> bytram: I do not understand that math
[04:26:00] <NCommander> paulej72, it was
[04:26:27] <paulej72> OK I just wanted t make sure after that Outlook on the Mac comment
[04:26:42] <bytram> as it spiders through pages and comes upon a page that has NEW links in it, it adds those new links to the total number of URLs.
[04:27:36] <bytram> from the main page of SN, you have no idea of how many links there may be in one article's comments, right?
[04:27:48] <xlefay> paulej72: how do I reference a commit via github?
[04:28:10] <paulej72> I understand that part, it just seem like adding 500 pages and finding 2000 more it still made 1% progress
[04:28:15] <xlefay> nvm got it!
[04:28:43] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 7000 of 28714 URLs (24%) done
[04:29:07] <bytram> paulej72, 7000 / 28714 = 24%
[04:30:39] <paulej72> I know but my intuition seems like between update -2 and update -1 there was more pages found than would allow for progress of 1%
[04:30:53] <xlefay> https://github.com should be forwarded to FunPika
[04:31:11] <xlefay> e.g. wiki stuff doesn't belong at Slashcode's repo
[04:31:27] <bytram> paulej72, yup... I ran into that, too. still, the math does work out.
[04:32:01] <xlefay> https://github.com <-- is this fixed then?
[04:32:08] <paulej72> don't try to sway me with facts :)
[04:33:37] <paulej72> xlefay: no 75 is not fixed because I have not submitted that code yet. I was waiting for dev to get set up and my old code to get merged. I have that ready to go though.
[04:33:50] <xlefay> oh I see
[04:34:14] <paulej72> Is there a wiki issue tracker?
[04:34:41] <xlefay> Not sure, I'd just e-mail him for now, or send him a memo ( /ms send funpika) he should be able to answer that
[04:36:05] <paulej72> issue 82 sounds like a varnish ssh issue possibly. This was another one moved from FF
[04:36:15] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 8002 of 31848 URLs (25%) done
[04:36:32] <xlefay> varnish ssh issue?
[04:36:44] <xlefay> ssl?
[04:37:15] <paulej72> yes ssl
[04:37:28] <xlefay> NC and I (mostly NC though) have been fiddling with the SSL knobs
[04:37:42] <paulej72> can I blame that on auto correct?
[04:37:52] <xlefay> we (again, actually NC) got it working partially. You can sign in with SSL now but it still redirects to http
[04:38:04] <xlefay> but you just browse back to https, and you're signed in
[04:38:08] <xlefay> sure
[04:38:16] <xlefay> So halfway fixed
[04:38:45] <paulej72> yes and that double login seems like someone tried to go in via https and got redirected to http and then logged in. Without more info I can;t be sure
[04:39:36] <xlefay> ^ sounds very likely
[04:40:03] <xlefay> Can someone add me on github, so I can also help out with them bugs and stuff?
[04:40:17] <paulej72> I would have not known that if it was not for your testing earlier.
[04:40:35] <paulej72> yes I can give me a few seconds.
[04:40:37] <xlefay> oh I see
[04:40:40] <xlefay> Thank you.
[04:41:19] <xlefay> https://github.com It's been 22 days, is it a safe bet it'll get denied or there just hasn't been time to properly review it?
[04:41:30] <xlefay> "Questionable" hmm
[04:41:38] <xlefay> Didn't NC get it to run without root anyway?
[04:42:56] <paulej72> xlefay: You now have basically full access to slashcode, as I can't give you special permissions to just the issue tracker. Please do not break anything :)
[04:43:14] <xlefay> https://github.com <---- woa.. some people have spent 8 years fucking slashcode up
[04:43:27] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 9000 of 34409 URLs (26%) done
[04:43:30] <xlefay> paulej72: don't worry, what's the worst that could happen? ;-)
[04:44:20] <paulej72> xlefay: If you want to add code, please do not just merge your code directly to the repo. We are doing everything via pull requests and someone else in dev needs to review your code before it gets merged.
[04:44:37] <xlefay> paulej72: makes sense ;-)
[04:44:45] <xlefay> Otherwise QA would pretty much skin me alive
[04:45:33] <paulej72> Pull 11 will probably be shit-canned, but I wanted to make sure we really did not need it first.
[04:45:56] <xlefay> well shit can it away ;-)
[04:46:28] <paulej72> done
[04:46:59] <xlefay> I'm going to bed; good night all! :)
[04:47:38] <bytram> xlefay, g'night!
[04:48:01] <xlefay> you too ;-)
[04:48:26] <NCommander> I hate ldap
[04:48:55] <paulej72> good night xlefay
[04:49:58] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 10000 of 36927 URLs (27%) done
[04:56:10] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 11000 of 39175 URLs (28%) done
[05:02:59] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 12061 of 41800 URLs (28%) done
[05:09:35] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 13001 of 44161 URLs (29%) done
[05:12:22] -!- mrcoolbp [mrcoolbp!~mrcoolbp@Soylent/Staff/mrcoolbp] has joined #staff
[05:12:22] -!- mode/#staff [+v mrcoolbp] by SkyNet
[05:12:52] * mrcoolbp is halucinating already
[05:14:32] * NCommander is making progress w/ LDAP
[05:14:37] <NCommander> very
[05:14:39] <NCommander> very
[05:14:41] <NCommander> slowly
[05:15:36] <paulej72> two new pull requests up. one minor update to organization template to add twitter and one major one to update prefs. This one once merged will bring things in line with SC.
[05:15:52] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 14004 of 46085 URLs (30%) done
[05:16:29] <paulej72> only twice as many new links as it is processing
[05:17:00] <paulej72> at this rate when will it be done?
[05:17:07] <bytram> if it found NO more links, it would take me 4 hours to complete.
[05:17:34] <bytram> anyone got a windows box with a faster pipe? Mine is 920kb/s
[05:19:43] <paulej72> sorry not on me right now.
[05:19:49] <bytram> !current-uid
[05:19:49] <Bender> The current maximum UID is 3926, owned by gitano
[05:21:52] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 15003 of 48300 URLs (31%) done
[05:24:16] <mrcoolbp> bytram I do
[05:24:23] <mrcoolbp> I think
[05:24:50] <bytram> I'm running Xenu Link Sleuth...
[05:25:43] <bytram> info is here: http://home.snafu.de
[05:25:46] <mrcoolbp> I'm pulling 26Mbps right now on a windows box
[05:25:57] <bytram> Download is here: http://home.snafu.de
[05:26:22] <paulej72> bytram: there are approximately 20K comments on SN. so each has at least one link. If it has nested comments, each one would generate a tree with more comments. so transversing this tree multiple times is what is causing the link counts to rise.
[05:26:36] <bytram> whoah! 26Mbps is >> 920kbps
[05:27:16] <mrcoolbp> installex
[05:27:19] <mrcoolbp> installed
[05:27:32] <bytram> paulej72, I think I follow you, but would not the links resolve to the same URL?
[05:27:40] <paulej72> bytram: does that code skip submit type links, or is it trying to comment on comment/.
[05:27:44] <bytram> mrcoolbp, cool!
[05:28:03] <mrcoolbp> just point it at the dev server?
[05:28:19] <bytram> mrcoolbp, File / Check URL / http://dev.soylnetnews.org
[05:28:51] <paulej72> bytram: yes they should, so hopefully it is smart enough to not do what I was thinking
[05:29:33] <NCommander> Ok
[05:29:37] <NCommander> LDAP has users in it
[05:29:37] <NCommander> ugh
[05:29:41] <NCommander> So
[05:29:42] <NCommander> Tedious
[05:29:42] <bytram> mrcoolbp, under options, you might want to bump the number of threads up to, say, 50.
[05:29:58] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 16003 of 50458 URLs (31%) done
[05:30:39] <mrcoolbp> 10% done
[05:31:44] <bytram> mrcoolbp, under options / Basic tab / Report / choose top 2 checkboxes and bottom 2
[05:32:14] <mrcoolbp> uncheck rest?
[05:32:28] <bytram> right.
[05:32:56] <bytram> otherwise the it will result in a complete site map of all the links on the entire site.
[05:33:04] <mrcoolbp> k
[05:34:56] <bytram> mrcoolbp, what are you showing as the progress in the lower right hand corner: x of y (z) %
[05:36:25] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 17001 of 52595 URLs (32%) done
[05:36:37] <mrcoolbp> 1700 of 13,600 (12%) done
[05:36:50] <bytram> =)
[05:37:32] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: I saw the discussion earlier about staff communication
[05:37:40] <mrcoolbp> I found a few really interesting ideas
[05:39:07] <mrcoolbp> posted them here: http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[05:43:20] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 1000 of 54694 URLs (32%) done
[05:43:32] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 18000 of 54694 URLs (32%) done
[05:44:33] <paulej72> mrcoolbp: made some additions to that page with info I had.
[05:44:43] <mrcoolbp> cool
[05:44:49] <bytram> mrcoolbp, sounds interesting!
[05:45:11] <mrcoolbp> the most promising was "intertwinkles" but it depends of JS
[05:45:18] <bytram> mrcoolbp, how's your progress with xenu?
[05:45:29] <mrcoolbp> "17%"
[05:45:52] <paulej72> mrcoolbp: what is the count?
[05:45:55] <bytram> as you'll learn... that can be, umm, misleading.
[05:46:00] <mrcoolbp> yeah
[05:46:17] <mrcoolbp> 5300 of 30,200
[05:46:39] <mrcoolbp> guys: I'm delerious from lack of sleep
[05:46:48] <paulej72> mrcoolbp: you may get better results with more threads.
[05:46:59] * mrcoolbp ups to 80
[05:47:09] <bytram> so you are retiring 3600 links/min or so... I'm averaging about 130/min
[05:48:04] <mrcoolbp> anyway, delerious, sleep deprivation, need to type email wrt our plan for name change, give me a few minutes..
[05:48:40] <bytram> mrcoolbp++ # thanks for ALL your help!
[05:48:40] <Bender> karma - mrcoolbp: 6
[05:48:53] <bytram> paulej72++ # bug killer in our midst
[05:48:53] <Bender> karma - paulej72: 7
[05:48:57] <mrcoolbp> ooh dinging and pretty colors...
[05:49:45] <paulej72> mrcoolbp: did it finish or die?
[05:50:08] <mrcoolbp> 7K out of 34K
[05:50:13] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 19000 of 56748 URLs (33%) done
[05:50:56] <paulej72> or are you channeling 2001 A Space Odyssey
[05:51:33] <bytram> mrcoolbp, you got 1700 done in about 4 minutes; I finished 1000 in 6.5 minnutes
[05:51:51] <mrcoolbp> = )
[05:52:20] <bytram> Hmmm, I wonder how the server is holding up under the load?
[05:56:32] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 20002 of 58385 URLs (34%) done
[05:58:01] <mrcoolbp> I'm cathing up, almost 10K of 41K
[05:58:13] <mrcoolbp> also about halfway through this email
[05:58:26] <mrcoolbp> MrBluze|afk, you around?
[06:00:16] <mrcoolbp> audioguy: you available?
[06:00:51] <NCommander> mcasadevall:*:2500:2500:Michael Casadevall:/home/users/mcasadevall:/bin/bash
[06:00:52] <NCommander> w00t
[06:01:12] <NCommander> Ok, so its showing up properly from LDAP
[06:01:37] <NCommander> root@soylent-db:/etc# id mcasadevall
[06:01:37] <NCommander> uid=2500(mcasadevall) gid=2500(firefighters) groups=2500(firefighters)
[06:01:38] <NCommander> yay
[06:02:54] <mrcoolbp> LDAP = all good?
[06:03:56] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 21002 of 60105 URLs (34%) done
[06:05:06] <bytram> NCommander, how's the dev server holding up under the load? both mrcoolbp and I are spidering it.
[06:05:58] <bytram> mrcoolbp, wow! you ARE cathcing up fast!
[06:06:04] <mrcoolbp> 11,700 of 47,000
[06:07:15] <mrcoolbp> bytram, you could probably kill yours, I'll surpass you in about 10 minutes
[06:07:42] <NCommander> bytram, its fine
[06:07:48] <NCommander> bytram, the rate limiting making your life slow :-)
[06:07:58] <bytram> mrcoolbp, will do, just want to get the next data point logged.
[06:08:21] <bytram> NCommander, what rate limiting?
[06:08:45] <mrcoolbp> bytram can you help with some testing?
[06:09:11] <mrcoolbp> audioguy is coding a voting system using shell scripts and email
[06:09:43] <bytram> mrcoolbp, would like to, but I need to be AT work in 7h45m and get some sleep between now and then.
[06:09:47] * mrcoolbp is surprised he can think this clearly at this point
[06:10:20] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 22004 of 61353 URLs (35%) done
[06:10:22] <mrcoolbp> bytram, I can have audioguy email you the details, maybe you can help later
[06:11:03] <bytram> mrcoolbp, that would be fine. wouldn't be able to get to it until late tonight (sat) at the earliest.
[06:11:17] <mrcoolbp> no prob, just another body on it would be nice
[06:11:29] <mrcoolbp> no pressure though
[06:11:35] <NCommander> bytram, I have rate limiting on Varnish
[06:11:42] <NCommander> Its limited to 6 requests per second
[06:11:54] <bytram> would like to help out... testing is my "thing"!
[06:12:00] <mrcoolbp> I know
[06:12:02] <mrcoolbp> = )
[06:12:11] <mrcoolbp> it's not that fun though...
[06:12:18] <bytram> You make it, I break it.
[06:12:21] <mrcoolbp> heh
[06:12:32] * mrcoolbp attempts to finish this email
[06:12:35] <bytram> depends on how you look at it... for me, it's sort of like trying to crack a puzzle.
[06:15:48] <paulej72> mrcoolbp: with rate limiting you are probably getting a bunch of error pages based on that not on bad urls.
[06:16:10] <mrcoolbp> paulej72: just running this for bytram, talk to him
[06:16:40] <bytram> mrcoolbp, when the spider completes, save 2 things: the generated report that it sends to your browser; then go back to Xenu and File / Save as... (e.g. dev.ac.20140322a.xen)
[06:17:14] <mrcoolbp> k
[06:17:24] <bytram> Updated status of link check of dev.soylentnews.org; using 30 threads; 23001 of 62823 URLs (36%) done
[06:18:01] <bytram> Okay all, I needs some zzzzzzzs.... catch ya all later!
[06:18:08] <mrcoolbp> g'night
[06:18:38] <NCommander> This is quite possibly the stupidest config system I've ever seen
[06:18:40] <mrcoolbp> paulej72: sorry I'm *extremely* out of it...didn't mean for that to come off mean
[06:19:18] <paulej72> mrcoolbp: I did not take it that way. No issues here.
[06:19:36] <mrcoolbp> cool
[06:19:42] <bytram> okay... my Xenu spider is paused.
[06:19:49] * mrcoolbp is almost done with this email hopefully
[06:20:00] <bytram> NCommander, good luck with LDAP!
[06:20:19] bytram is now known as Bytram|afk
[06:20:20] <NCommander> bytram, well, they seem to have moved the entire config file in LDAP
[06:20:59] <Bytram|afk> NCommander, you mean moved the config file to a different place?
[06:21:35] MrBluze|afk is now known as MrBluze
[06:21:37] <Bytram|afk> lnk checking paused at 23328 of 63203 URLs (36%) done
[06:21:38] <MrBluze> back, mrcoolbp
[06:21:55] <mrcoolbp> great, can I send you this draft?
[06:21:59] <MrBluze> yes
[06:22:28] <mrcoolbp> okay 4 minutes..
[06:22:31] <MrBluze> no prob
[06:23:42] <NCommander> Bytram|afk, no, I mean they got rid of it
[06:23:54] <NCommander> Bytram|afk, and placed it in the directory, with no examples on how to make a readonly user
[06:27:31] <mrcoolbp> MrBluze: sent (please note I'm quite sleep-deprived at this current moment)
[06:27:38] <paulej72> time for me to sleep as well.
[06:27:41] <mrcoolbp> MrBluze: can you check now?
[06:27:55] <paulej72> back tomorrow all.
[06:28:05] <mrcoolbp> g'nigtht paulej72
[06:28:17] <paulej72> good night
[06:28:25] <mrcoolbp> MrBluze: I need to go to sleep ASAP and I'd like to send to staff before I do so
[06:29:32] paulej72 is now known as paulej72_away
[06:29:50] <MrBluze> okay
[06:29:57] <MrBluze> looking now
[06:40:13] <mrcoolbp> okay I'm getting to bed
[06:40:18] <mrcoolbp> goodnight all
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[06:53:06] <NCommander> FUCK
[06:53:10] * NCommander needs to backport OpenSSH
[06:54:43] <MrBluze> serious?
[06:54:49] <NCommander> MrBluze, if I want SSH keys in LDAP
[06:55:01] * NCommander notes Debian and Ubuntu use some seriously ugly shellscripting to hack around the problem
[06:55:06] <NCommander> on our backends
[06:56:03] <MrBluze> oh
[06:56:39] <MrBluze> that makes my head ache just thinking about it
[06:56:51] <NCommander> MrBluze, LDAP sucks
[06:56:54] <NCommander> I could setup kerberos
[06:57:00] <NCommander> But it doesn't help for initial access on the network
[06:57:07] * NCommander just builds this from scratch
[06:57:13] <NCommander> I'll put it in a PPA for the other nodes
[06:58:15] <NCommander> it will be extremely slick once its seutp
[06:58:19] <NCommander> just ... getting there
[06:58:20] <NCommander> ugh
[06:58:21] <MrBluze> well then it's worth it
[06:58:44] <MrBluze> if u saw how much cleaning house i have to do here, u'd cheerfully go to cleaning code
[06:59:03] * MrBluze 's wife is .... uhm.. behind on her work
[07:05:08] <NCommander> ok
[07:05:12] * NCommander is starting to make accounts
[07:05:13] <NCommander> ugh
[07:05:18] <NCommander> shooooooot me
[07:05:37] * xlefay grabs a water pistol
[07:05:49] <xlefay> nighty night'
[07:06:04] <MrBluze> gnite xlefay
[07:11:07] <NCommander> Holy crap thats slick
[07:11:13] * NCommander has his SSH keys in LDAP
[07:20:13] <MrBluze> :)
[07:21:17] <NCommander> root@soylent-db:/home/mcasadevall# id mcasadevall
[07:21:17] <NCommander> uid=2500(mcasadevall) gid=2501(sysops) groups=2501(sysops),2500(firefighters)
[07:24:10] <NCommander> Oh
[07:24:13] <NCommander> That's really snazzy
[07:24:20] * NCommander just needs to get replication seutp and we're in business
[07:31:34] MrBluze is now known as MrBluze|dinner
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[08:40:12] * NCommander sings the I-HATE-PAM song
[08:56:31] MrBluze|afk is now known as MrBluze
[09:16:56] <NCommander> fuck it , done for tonight
[09:33:59] audioguy is now known as audioguyzzz
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[12:38:35] <bytram> !current-uid
[12:38:35] <Bender> The current maximum UID is 3927, owned by balor
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[14:21:00] <NCommander> ugh
[14:21:55] FoobarBazbot is now known as FoobarBazbot|afk
[14:25:45] <NCommander> xlefay, you awake?
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[15:57:14] <mrcoolbp> stderr: around?
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[16:10:35] <janrinok> hi guys
[16:10:41] <mrcoolbp> hey janrinok
[16:11:04] <janrinok> how are you today?
[16:11:14] <mrcoolbp> okay
[16:11:25] <mrcoolbp> trying to get this whole name change thing underway
[16:11:27] <janrinok> same, same
[16:11:41] <janrinok> Have we decided upon a method?
[16:12:28] <mrcoolbp> I sent out a proposal last night
[16:12:30] <mrcoolbp> check your email
[16:12:52] <janrinok> Sorry - I've literally just switched the computers on - I haven't even started up my email yet!
[16:14:14] <mrcoolbp> no problem
[16:14:50] <janrinok> Oh no! 8 emails to be read!
[16:15:06] <NCommander> man
[16:15:10] <NCommander> Not having a lot of luck w/ irpg
[16:16:20] <janrinok> afternoon NCommander
[16:36:47] <NCommander> w00t
[16:36:48] <NCommander> Ok
[16:36:52] * NCommander has a read only LDAP reader
[16:37:05] <NCommander> This shouldn't be this painful
[16:41:00] * mrcoolbp looks at empty coffee cup
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[16:41:28] <NCommander> YAY
[16:41:30] <NCommander> It does TLS
[16:49:08] <NCommander> WOOOOOOOOO
[16:49:08] <NCommander> Ok
[16:49:10] <NCommander> Progress
[17:01:33] <mrcoolbp> okay breakfast time BRB
[17:06:56] <mrcoolbp> .op
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[17:42:09] <mrcoolbp> I'm off for the weekend (work), I'll try to be available via email
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[21:19:29] <NCommander> Ok
[21:46:10] <NCommander> god
[21:46:15] <NCommander> That is stupidly uninituvity
[21:46:16] <NCommander> hosts: files dns [!UNAVAIL=return] ldap
[21:46:48] <NCommander> (basically, it acts as a circuit breaker because OpenLDAP is too stupid to realize its infinite looping)
[21:53:35] <stderr> NCommander: A couple days ago you said that you thought the non-profit should be US-based, because freedom of the press was good in the US or something like that. Did I understand that correctly?
[21:54:55] <NCommander> stderr, yes, there's a huge amount of case law such as New York Times v. United States
[21:55:08] <NCommander> and bloggers are recongized as journalists under US law
[21:55:38] <stderr> Have you looked at e.g. https://rsf.org where US is number 46?
[21:55:59] <stderr> Netherlands is number 2. Denmark is number 7...
[21:57:43] <stderr> Using "Freedom of the press" as a reason for being US-based seems very silly to me.
[22:01:51] <NCommander> stderr, first, reporters without boarders refers to the harassment of professional journalists or social pressures preventing self-scensorship, it is not a gauge of laws or legal protections provided to reporters
[22:02:04] * NCommander had to check to see if they changed the 2014 criteria in that regard
[22:02:16] <stderr> According to http://en.wikipedia.org the United States was number 32 last year, so they have dropped a lot.
[22:02:31] <NCommander> stderr, same page, you can't compare numbers across years because the criteria changes annually
[22:02:41] <stderr> Ok.
[22:02:49] <NCommander> Same page as well, the US rates "satisifcatory"
[22:03:09] <NCommander> As far as the Reporters Without Borders information goes
[22:03:22] <NCommander> You're right, there are countries that have stronger laws for professional journalists
[22:03:35] <NCommander> However, do those countries recongize bloggers as journalists
[22:03:44] <NCommander> (which is a key criteria)
[22:04:18] <stderr> "It reflects the degree of freedom that journalists, news organizations, and ___netizens___ enjoy in each country, and the efforts made by the authorities to respect and ensure respect for this freedom."
[22:04:19] <NCommander> stderr, for example, Great Britian rates higher than the US on reporters without borders
[22:04:38] <NCommander> However, Britains Libial laws could, if we publish a negative review of something, mean we can be sued even if its fully factual
[22:04:58] <NCommander> http://en.wikipedia.org
[22:05:23] <stderr> You can be sued everywhere...
[22:06:03] <NCommander> Sued yes? Win, no. You can't be sued for speaking the truth under US law (New York Times v. United States extended that as well to confidental information leaked to news papers). That's *not* true in the GB
[22:06:16] <NCommander> stderr, I understand the RWOB metric, but its not a complete yardstick on how to do things
[22:06:43] <NCommander> stderr, furthermore, while we can incorperate internationally, nothing stops us from also being incorperated in the United States
[22:06:51] <NCommander> Which acts as a legal shield for all US citizens who work on the site
[22:07:00] <NCommander> (concept of corporate veil)
[22:07:54] <NCommander> stderr, we'd also need someone in that country to own the business or go through the application process
[22:08:08] <NCommander> (I know thats true for Germany for instance, I'm fairly sure its truth in the Netherlands)
[22:08:13] <NCommander> *true
[22:08:23] <stderr> Ok, I just haven't seen any real evidence from you or anyone else why it would be a good idea to be US-based. It seems like it's just something you feel is a good idea.
[22:10:19] <xlefay> NCommander: am now
[22:14:06] <stderr> NCommander: We have someone in e.g. the Netherlands (I of course can say if he wants to do the job or not). We also had one in Denmark, but since I don't get any clear answers on anything I got a lot of other things I much rather do.
[22:16:06] <NCommander> xlefay, well, being a non-US national, what are your two cents?
[22:17:56] <xlefay> Well, I'm not pro-American with all the leaks and such but I do recognize that spying and crap happens everywhere. I like stderr's link regarding the freedom of press index and I honestly think we need to compare the pros and cons. There's lot's of information available, let's reach out to organizations (have we heard back from those three yet, mattie_p was going to e-mail)?
[22:17:58] <stderr> The tax reason you gave yesterday also didn't make any sense to me... If the non-profit is US-based, I can't put my donations on my tax papers.
[22:19:04] <stderr> Yes, it's good for people in the US, if the non-profit is US-based, but honestly SO FUCKING WHAT?... We got members elsewhere too...
[22:19:11] <xlefay> I think the only way to satisfy most people is to have an actual comparison of pros and cons of a few nations, see which one is the best but the tricky part is first selecting a few nations to write it up about. If we do this, we would actually making the right choice long term without more fuss.
[22:19:49] <xlefay> That's my two cents on it. I agree with both, for now it'd be easy for an US NFP but.. we don't all want one in the US because of GAG orders, etc.. but we do realize the US isn't the only one with those issues
[22:20:38] <xlefay> My take on it.. even though we want an NFP asap... I'd rather wait another month if we sort this all out, so now - to stderr and NCommander, what's your take on my two or three cents?
[22:21:42] <NCommander> xlefay, my problem is that no one has volunteered to do any of this work, nor have I seen serious addressation of the fact that most countries do require residency or citizenship to establish a business. Without someone stepping forward who wants to do it, it will be a lot of talk
[22:21:59] <xlefay> (point is, we can keep arguing about it - but if we have all the facts at hands, we can make a good decision)
[22:23:30] <stderr> NCommander: Nobody stepped forward because it seemed you had already decided that you should do it.
[22:23:56] <NCommander> stderr, I've made it clear, if you see something, say something. Until you brought it up on IRC< no one has said anything.
[22:24:09] <xlefay> So... let's ask the mailing list what they think, if anyone would volunteer for this.
[22:24:39] <xlefay> I personally am not confident that I'll be able to find my way through the legal jumbo mumbo which can be another reason why people might not volunteer
[22:25:48] <NCommander> stderr, if you feel seriously about this (and I think you do), then bring the question up on the list, and I will endorse the search for volunteers
[22:26:09] <NCommander> and if an alternative *is* viable, then we go with it.
[22:26:14] <stderr> NCommander: I might have stepped forward, if I hadn't thought you had already decided to do it. I don't want to do it now, since I honestly don't know how much longer I'm going to be part of staff.
[22:27:10] <xlefay> I think this is a good example of things not going to right way again, let's take a step back here - think about what's being said and what we want.
[22:27:15] <janrinok> NCommander: As a Brit, I would strongly recommend that you do not base yourself in the UK, for the very reasons of libel that have been quoted above. Secondly, how binding in US law is the phrase "All comments are the property of the owner and not the site", and as we normally quote other sources we should be good because we are not the originators of the statement. (IANAL etc)
[22:27:41] * NCommander rubs his temples
[22:27:45] <stderr> NCommander: I'm tired of not getting any clear answers about anything. I said so yesterday, but you still haven't answer whether or not I'm part of the SysAdmin team... That's why I'm now working on some of my own projects instead of SoylentNews projects.
[22:27:47] <xlefay> mattie_p: did we receive a reply from those three organizations? Could they possibly have information?
[22:27:54] <NCommander> janrinok, Safe Harbor provisions of the DCMA, Its legally binding.
[22:28:07] * NCommander hates the cite that law, but it DOES protect us hugely from that
[22:28:43] <janrinok> stay with what you know would be my recommendation - but by all means look elsewhere if you believe that it might be better.
[22:29:30] <NCommander> janrinok, *nods*, thats why I don't take reporters without borders without a grain of salt
[22:30:09] * NCommander notes that while the US has its own version of supergap orders, at least you can fight National Security Letters in court
[22:30:12] <NCommander> (Jewel v. NSA)
[22:31:26] <stderr> Did we ask EFF/FSF/SPI where they would suggest we should be based?
[22:31:57] <xlefay> stderr: I'm still waiting to hear whether the e-mail has been send and if there's been a reply. I'll ask mattie_p on the mailing list.
[22:32:19] <xlefay> Would it be OK if I were to mail the mailing list regarding this matter and ask them what they think about a taskforce figuring out pros and cons?
[22:32:27] * NCommander finds it slightly ironic if we're asking a US company with international subsidaries if we should form in the US or elsewhere
[22:32:44] <NCommander> scratch that, I don't think SPI exists in Europe
[22:32:57] <xlefay> So we can end this unproductive matter here and actually turn it into a positive effort?
[22:33:15] <NCommander> xlefay, I'll get on mattie_p's case about it. I think he might havebeen waiting for me and it fell through the cracks
[22:33:25] <stderr> FSFe does exist. Not sure how much/little they do... I'm not a member of FSFe. I'm a member of the "real" FSF...
[22:33:56] <stderr> While you all wait, I'll go get something to eat...
[22:35:22] <janrinok> NCommander: you might find one of matt_'s contacts will do some work pro bono - I don't think that you will find similar help elsewhere. It might be cheaper just to stay local, as it were.
[22:36:17] <NCommander> stderr, I had a FSFe Smartcard for awhile, I know they exist, but they essentially exist for legal purposes as best I can tell. (I wasn't involved as high with the FSF inner operations as I was with Debian but FSFe was rarely if ever brought up on any FSF list I ever was)
[22:37:23] <stderr> Exactly... It doesn't really seem like they're doing anything at all. That's also why I'm not a member, but a member of the "real" FSF.
[22:38:21] <stderr> It also seems like FSFe was started by someone else, not by FSF itself?
[22:41:38] <NCommander> stderr, likely due to corperate ownership laws
[22:41:42] <janrinok> got to go, cheers guys, cu tomorrow
[22:41:43] <NCommander> Its officially assiocated with the FSFe
[22:41:45] <NCommander> er
[22:41:48] <NCommander> FSF main
[22:43:33] <stderr> Well, FSFe always seemed a bit weird to me. I never understood why it was needed in the first place. As far as I know, I'm not the only one from Europe who's a member of FSF, but not a member of FSFe.
[22:44:22] <stderr> ... and if SN decides to make a NFP in the US and one in Europe (and one in ... and one in ...) I'll also think that's a bit weird.
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[22:47:41] <stderr> Anyway... AFK... Eating...
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[23:35:56] <xlefay> stderr / NCommander / whoever else: http://pastie.org
[23:36:20] <xlefay> My e-mail, comments, changes required, etc..? I'm doing my best here but I'm really not the best person to make these writes up, so gimme feedback!
[23:43:43] * NCommander fiddles with ldap
[23:45:55] <xlefay> sent