#staff | Logs for 2014-03-18

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[00:04:37] <MrBluze|afk> in reskinning i am looking at websites for good candidates to emulate
[00:11:50] MrBluze|afk is now known as MrBluze
[00:12:50] <paulej72> MrBluze: no I was just being silly
[00:12:59] <MrBluze> lol
[00:13:16] <MrBluze> i would be prepared to prepare and edit 1 or 2 articles a day
[00:13:50] <MrBluze> but reading comments on sn looks like we need to get more ppl putting work in
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[03:43:04] <mattie_p> ALL STAFF, Please review email on mailling list. Feedback is appreciated before I launch. Thanks
[03:45:02] <matt_> so... I'm guessing NC was less than enthusiastic about my thoughts on incorporation? (haven't heard from him)
[03:46:49] <mattie_p> matt_ we're soliciting feedback from other sources as well. At this point, I don't think it hurts to get advice from anyone willing to give it, especially foundations that might specialize in such
[03:47:17] <mattie_p> NC is still recovering from jetlag, I do believe
[03:48:23] <mattie_p> matt_ I think you are a valuable asset, but you even said you didn't know a CPA or lawyer who could help with non-profit incorporation
[03:49:04] <mattie_p> Since I don't know any either, and if NC did he'd have been emailing them, a wide net might be beneficial
[03:49:55] <matt_> mattie_p, ok, i understand. although, I do know a lawyer who may be able to help with nonprofit incorporation (as mentioned in my email)...
[03:50:14] <matt_> ...but I have not yet reached out to him as I was waiting for feedback.
[03:51:16] <mattie_p> matt_ I'd recommend you send that email to the mail list as-is, so we can get some discussion on it. NCommander will have a large part of influence on that, but I think it might be beneficial to just open it up for discussion
[03:51:51] <mattie_p> Speaking for the staff, I think we've all been burned by back-room deals already, so frank and open discussion might be called for at this point
[03:52:04] <matt_> mattie_p, ok, I was hoping to get NC's feedback first just in case he was vehemently opposed to something.
[03:52:20] <matt_> definitely didn't want to make it seem like I was going over/around him.
[03:52:22] <mattie_p> we can also pursue the two routes simultaneously until they become incompatible
[03:54:01] <mattie_p> well, he was burned once (so were the rest of the staff), so I don't know how much he will appreciate it. However, I honestly feel an open discussion would be beneficial
[03:54:42] <matt_> ok, then. as long as I can say "as per mattie_p's recommendation" so he can blame you ;-)
[03:54:59] <mattie_p> I get blamed for a lot anyway, so what is one more thing? :)
[03:56:28] <mattie_p> But really
[03:56:34] <Landon> did anyone talk to prospectacle about the user rating mods?
[03:56:56] <mattie_p> what is the worst that happens? He doesn't like it and tells you why? Or he disagrees with a couple of things you say?
[03:59:06] <mattie_p> or someone raises a point now that needs to be considered before we go too far down the road?
[04:00:18] <matt_> mattie_p, very true, will send in a minute.
[04:01:17] <mattie_p> Landon, I know I haven't
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[04:02:23] <xlefay> Landon: you mean that suggestion in PHP?
[04:02:41] <xlefay> I forwarded him here to speak about it the other day, think he showed up but don't think anyone spoke to him..
[04:02:46] * xlefay notes someone should .op
[04:03:29] <xlefay> .. so they can see the non-voiced speak
[04:03:35] -!- mode/#staff [+o mattie_p] by what-if-i
[04:03:56] <mattie_p> oh, yeah, good point
[04:04:12] mattie_p changed topic of #staff to: mattie_p is in command. Watch your step.
[04:07:56] * xlefay walks
[04:08:05] <xlefay> dammit, stop making me trip!
[04:10:03] <matt_> ALL STAFF, Please review a second email (from me this time) on mailing list. The email is on the same topic as (and very much in harmony with) mattie_p's recent email. Feedback is appreciated. Best.
[04:11:29] <xlefay> Is that HTML I'm receiving? :O
[04:12:24] <xlefay> "cpa"?
[04:12:34] <matt_> xlefay, I'm sure you can handle it ;)
[04:12:40] <matt_> "certified public accountant"
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[04:13:31] <kobach> welp
[04:13:32] <kobach> http://grantspace.org
[04:13:53] <kobach> brb email
[04:14:57] <mattie_p> looks like one of the summaries on SN lately that people don't like. "Tell me what the article says so I don't have to read it myself"
[04:17:04] <kobach> ok well from what i understood i agree w/ the email
[04:18:31] <matt_> matt's email, matt's email or both emails?
[04:19:09] <kobach> both i think
[04:19:32] <kobach> i tend to miss details occasionaly but im pretty sure
[04:22:08] <xlefay> matt_: the staff's been working together for a couple of weeks, I can honestly say that I trust each and every member of the staff; I'm curious if you are even considered a staff member at this point; how you will fit in, what you'll do etc? From the email it seems you consider yourself at the topic because you might be liable for the SoylentNews name. Don't get me wrong, I'm curious is all. You didn't quiet enter our "ranks" so to speak via the
[04:22:09] <xlefay> regular way.
[04:23:17] <matt_> xlefay, I do understand, I believe. that is honestly one reason why I haven't been saying too much, just wanted to give some time for things to calm down before suggesting anything major.
[04:24:04] <xlefay> I personally would have preferred you formally introduced yourself on the mailing list, which might have given us a better indication about who you are.
[04:24:37] <matt_> I also understand that talk about incorporation stuff, etc. is probably the last thing that the community wants to talk about given the whole reason for this site existing (i.e. the beta fiasco).
[04:25:23] <kobach> now when we say incorporation, do we mean nonprofit incorporation or do you mean somthing like an LLC
[04:25:36] <mattie_p> matt_ I've shared privately a little of your background, but was hesitant to share what you told me and NC without explicit permission
[04:25:38] <matt_> But, as one commenter put it in response to /.'s "we are listening" response: "we are intelligent people, just tell us the facts, say it straight, we can handle it".
[04:26:05] <matt_> kobach, we are talking about a nonprofit corporation very similar to the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
[04:26:19] <kobach> ok just making sure
[04:26:58] <xlefay> matt_: so how do you fit in? What will your position be?
[04:27:02] <matt_> mattie_p, I understand. (also why ideally it would have been nice to get some feedback from NC, I suppose, instead of leaping straight into the staff list).
[04:27:33] <matt_> xlefay, well, we're basically all volunteers here, so I guess I will be a volunteer in some capacity.
[04:27:35] <MrBluze|bbl> NC has been understandably preoccupied with jet lag and such
[04:27:38] MrBluze|bbl is now known as MrBluze
[04:28:18] <mattie_p> matt_: his travel schedule hasn't been ideal. but we're all trying to deal with it as best we can. I'd recommend we just all talk when we get the chance
[04:28:46] <matt_> xlefay, also, as mattie_p alluded to above, my background is somewhat relevant: I have started a company, worked through the incorporation process, dealt with the needed lawyers, accountants, etc.
[04:28:50] <kobach> yea, i think right now its probably best to just wait a few days
[04:29:36] <MrBluze> what relatonship have u had with Barabbas prior to purchasing the domain name?
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[04:29:47] <matt_> MrBluze, zero
[04:29:53] <kobach> welcome blimpie, if you dont mind me calling you that
[04:30:12] <xlefay> matt_: you'll find we have a lot of questions. From the e-mail you send, I got the impression you considered yourself at the top, is this correct?
[04:30:21] <matt_> not even remotely
[04:30:58] <matt_> as far as I am concerned, NC is clearly the leader of this effort.
[04:31:14] <mattie_p> matt_ looks like this is turning into an impromptu interrogation. You'll find the staff is a little nicer than the CIA, I think. Maybe :p
[04:31:33] * MrBluze puts the crowbar away slowly
[04:31:34] <MrBluze> lol
[04:31:39] <matt_> mattie_p, it's ok, I bought some pitchfork-proof armor after last time ;-)
[04:31:50] <audioguy> There is a lot of paranoia here. ;-)
[04:32:03] <mattie_p> matt_ ohh, I need to get me some of that.
[04:32:13] <matt_> audioguy (all the more reason to get the nonprofit set up...)
[04:32:24] <audioguy> I agreee.
[04:32:27] <xlefay> matt_: if I come of in such a way, I apologize. I'm trying to get a clear picture. ;)
[04:32:38] <audioguy> In the end, it comes down to just a few things:
[04:33:05] <audioguy> Have to agree on a govenance model. I believe this will be the hard part with this group.
[04:33:27] <audioguy> Certain officers are required, IRS wants some known neck to wring ;-)
[04:33:52] * mrcoolbp raises hand
[04:33:53] <audioguy> Duties of the board, etc.
[04:33:59] <kobach> sup mrcoolbp
[04:34:05] <kobach> you had your hand raised?
[04:34:07] <mrcoolbp> hey there
[04:34:16] <mrcoolbp> just wanted to feel included = )
[04:34:33] <mattie_p> oh, matt_ is being interrogated. you have questions?
[04:34:36] <audioguy> It is not really complicated. I am on two boards, was present at the begining of one.
[04:34:55] <mrcoolbp> i noticed, no questions yet
[04:36:56] <matt_> audioguy, on the governance model: that's up to you guys and the rest of the community (good luck with that :), as for the officers, I'm guessing there will be a vote of some sort once the new voting system is all set, board, etc. also will require debate etc...
[04:37:04] <matt_> ...however incorporating is different...
[04:37:58] <matt_> ...that just involves bringing the legal entity into existance (without bylaws) for the purpose of divesting personal legal liability.
[04:38:45] <audioguy> Right.
[04:39:45] <matt_> ...also, as soon as the incorporation happens (again, before bylaws), the nonprofit form can be filed with the IRS, which is critical, as it may take some time to process.
[04:40:34] <audioguy> There still need to be some people/roles identified, as I recall.
[04:41:10] <mrcoolbp> .op
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[04:41:20] <matt_> audioguy, the nonprofit application requires some forecasts (budget, etc.) that we will have to put together, but they are all non-binding.
[04:41:27] <mrcoolbp> audioguy: yeah that is in the works
[04:41:28] <MrBluze> one more question, not sure if it was asked, what rights do u believe u bought from B?
[04:42:32] <matt_> MrBluze, the best answer I can give is Answer #6 in my last journal entry "SoylentNews.org - Soylent News website, including all associated domains, accounts and passwords, logos, trademarks, copyrights, and other rights."
[04:42:35] <xlefay> MrBluze: I was curious about that one too. As far as I know, only the domain name was bought - and a domain name doesn't suggest any rights except just that.
[04:42:38] <audioguy> I am involved with for profit, so may be some differences. Also a bit hazy on what was 'stong recommendation' from lawyer, and what was actually required.
[04:42:52] <matt_> the "other rights" is obviously a bit nebulous, but it is important...
[04:43:09] <mattie_p> matt_ did you have a contract with John Barrabas?
[04:43:10] <matt_> for any kind of intellectual property, it is very important to maintain a clear chain of ownership
[04:43:24] <matt_> to avoid any issues with B coming back and making a future claim, for example.
[04:43:26] <MrBluze> other rights
[04:43:43] <xlefay> but... what other rights did B posses?
[04:43:52] <kobach> the right to be an idiot
[04:44:01] <xlefay> All he had was a silly domain name and a boatload of unneeded linodes?
[04:44:07] <kobach> s/idiot/prick/
[04:44:11] <matt_> mattie_p, there is no other contract, aside from the invoice that includes the words that I mentioned above.
[04:44:18] <kobach> whoops i said that out loud, fuck
[04:44:27] <MrBluze> matt_: i am not antsy about u or anything, dont take that the wrong way - i want to be clear about the position we are in
[04:44:33] <kobach> ^
[04:45:15] <xlefay> matt_: could you give a clear indication of what that answer might mean? Since we only know he possesed some linodes and a domain.
[04:45:18] <matt_> MrBluze, very understandable (all the more reason to get things written down in some form... ...like in some kind of founding documents :)
[04:45:31] <audioguy> There is considerable question as to Barrabas legal ability to 'sell' some of that.
[04:45:47] <matt_> xlefay, think about what he might *claim* to own.
[04:46:00] <matt_> then think about the arguement that would follow if you disagree with him...
[04:46:15] <MrBluze> if we changed our domain name
[04:46:17] <matt_> best to recognize a "clean" sale of all rights, and move on, i think.
[04:46:22] <MrBluze> what rights would u have, matt_?
[04:46:29] <MrBluze> that would answer the question
[04:46:31] <audioguy> This is probably correct.
[04:47:00] <kobach> also after a potential name change
[04:47:39] <matt_> MrBluze, the trick there, is that your position could be interpreted as: "B did a lot of work, contributed to creating something, we are simply changing the name, and now what he contributed to creating is something completely different".
[04:47:53] <matt_> ...whether right or wrong, an arguement could definitely follow.
[04:47:55] <xlefay> except, he didn't do a whole lot of work.
[04:48:04] <xlefay> .. least not that I'm aware of...
[04:48:04] <MrBluze> ncommander made the thing stand on its feet
[04:48:10] <MrBluze> B waved his arms about furiously
[04:48:28] <MrBluze> that's my take anyway
[04:48:41] <mrcoolbp> matt_ I think the community is very grateful (myself included) for the gesture but you might look at the poll regarding the "hostage situation" (the majority voted not to pay Barrabas) that's where I think this conversation is coming from
[04:48:42] <matt_> xlefay, hahaha understood, but he would *claim that it was all his idea. again, arguement arguement arguement
[04:48:47] <xlefay> B was all talk, little work - which is one of the reasons he's gone. exactly, MrBluze.
[04:48:50] <kobach> only thing i saw b actually do, is send us to here away from freechode
[04:48:52] <kobach> freenode*
[04:48:58] <audioguy> The simplest approad is to do exactly whast matt_ has suggested, go with this, and he will turn over his rights to the corporation.
[04:49:06] <MrBluze> kobach: but that was xlefay and landon
[04:49:16] <kobach> no, but B was telling people
[04:49:19] <kobach> err yes*
[04:49:25] <MrBluze> the idea was originally mine - but only as a passing idea .. i dunno how it turned into a real thing
[04:49:38] <matt_> audioguy, it seems like the most 'clean' solution.
[04:49:42] <kobach> and thats what i saw him do, that and effectively hold the site random
[04:49:46] <MrBluze> we digress
[04:49:50] <kobach> ransom*
[04:49:51] <kobach> yes we do
[04:49:59] <kobach> bacon topic
[04:50:02] <kobach> back on*
[04:50:03] <xlefay> MrBluze: so, now it's you we're up against eh?!
[04:50:21] <xlefay> :P
[04:50:24] * mrcoolbp get's his pitchfork
[04:50:34] * xlefay grabs the golden one out of his pitchfork cabinet.
[04:50:40] * mrcoolbp dusts it off and looks at Bluze
[04:50:47] * matt_ just realized he has the same number of "Fans" as xlefay on the site :-)
[04:50:54] <mrcoolbp> hahaha
[04:50:59] <xlefay> hmm how much fans do I have?
[04:51:03] <matt_> 9
[04:51:06] <mrcoolbp> = 82387
[04:51:15] <mrcoolbp> that was supposed to be a -
[04:51:18] <xlefay> I've only got 9 fans? Jeez.... time to spank some people then!
[04:51:20] * mrcoolbp sighs
[04:51:31] * xlefay starts with mrcoolbp
[04:51:40] <mrcoolbp> aw crap
[04:51:53] <MrBluze> lol xlefay
[04:52:00] * xlefay spanks MrBluze next
[04:52:21] <xlefay> Also, if you consider this sexual embarrassment, that's fine because it is!
[04:52:51] <kobach> this is why we need to legalize shit
[04:52:59] <kobach> to protect against sexual harrasment lawsuits
[04:53:05] <xlefay> embarrassment*
[04:53:19] <kobach> there is no room for moob fondling in the staff room, now hush
[04:53:32] <xlefay> hey be nice
[04:53:35] <kobach> :p
[04:53:36] <xlefay> XKCD prophecy, remember?
[04:53:37] <mattie_p> matt_ If you need to split, then everyone has your email address by now. They can resume interrogation there. I mean questions.
[04:53:41] <FoobarBazbot_> embarrabassment?
[04:53:53] <xlefay> !grab FoobarBazbot_
[04:53:53] <Bender> Added quote 49
[04:53:56] <xlefay> I see what you did there.
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[04:54:12] <xlefay> OK everyone, let's be quiet now.
[04:54:13] <matt_> mattie_p, ok. any last pitchforks?
[04:54:48] <mattie_p> ask everyone else. They are the ones with questions. I have my own opinions, but we've already talked privately, time for public talk
[04:54:54] <mrcoolbp> matt_: the thing that really stuck out about your email is that you would make the "corp" under yourself
[04:54:57] <xlefay> oblig: http://www.widmannsrl.com
[04:55:06] <Landon> xlefay: no, not php
[04:55:19] <xlefay> mrcoolbp: I second that. Which kinda freaked me out since this is the first time we ever talked.
[04:55:23] <Landon> he was concerned when he found his preferences page that lets you change your mod modifiers
[04:55:34] <Landon> he quit before I could tell him that's normal for a kid his age
[04:55:41] <Landon> s/for a kid his age//
[04:55:41] <xlefay> Landon: ooh we're talking about different things then
[04:55:56] <kobach> Landon: are you logged into irpg
[04:55:56] <xlefay> we = me & matt
[04:56:07] <xlefay> (no he isn't, thank you for messing that up kobach!)
[04:56:09] <matt_> mrcoolbp, I know, (again, really would have loooooved to get NC's feedback first). The most important thing to remember about that is that noone other than me is required to make any kind of committment to the corp. (i.e. sign anything or transfer assets) until after the final community vote on the by-laws.
[04:56:27] <kobach> xlefay: if you can ruin it to stderr i can ruin it to landon
[04:56:40] <audioguy> Note for the paranoid: In the end, the only thing that counts is what goes down, legally, on paper. If you think matt_ might be ther AntiChrist, the time you will find out is on that piece of paper. Anything ANYONE says before that could be a lie. ;-) I see littel value in paranoid interrogations.
[04:57:01] <xlefay> matt_: I think the most important thing here is that we don't want the backroom stuff anymore. I think it's in everyone's best interest if you were to bring those things directly to the list that way everyone can contribute.
[04:57:10] <matt_> audioguy, very true
[04:57:13] <xlefay> What if you were to edit something out because NC didn't like it and yet the rest of us would have?
[04:57:24] <matt_> xlefay, well you've got it now, so contribute away :)
[04:57:48] <xlefay> matt_: I'm just mentioned it for future references. ;-)
[04:58:12] <matt_> xlefay, as mentioned, the original plan was to make sure NC didn't have any major problem, then send to staff for all input (including putting things in, taking things out), then go to full community via journal.
[04:58:51] <matt_> xlefay, to go to the staff before NC, could be interpreted (incorrectly) as an attempt at a coup. ;)
[04:59:22] <xlefay> matt_: aah I see what you mean now. Well, next time that won't be a problem ;-)
[04:59:31] <Landon> I'm going to save you all a lot of back and forth, "Just do it in the order you prefer, as long as both get to see it"
[04:59:32] <mattie_p> matt_ I'd say the major question is on the "domains, site, rights, and IP." depending on what that answer is, NC may or may not have issues with it
[04:59:33] <Landon> :)
[04:59:48] <mrcoolbp> matt_: that's understood, to me, it still feels like someone is steppin in and taking control (I understand you are trying to help)
[04:59:53] <xlefay> ^
[05:00:20] <matt_> mrcoolbp, I think that that may be an unavoidable feeling, because in reality the nonprofit entity will be doing exactly that, taking control
[05:00:30] <matt_> mrcoolbp, so that no one person will have control.
[05:01:54] <mrcoolbp> matt_: that is the goal, the part that made me uneasy is that you would be setting up the corp (and I think I get why), I personally have put so much work into this, it's weird for me to just have someone who kinda purchased it step in and do that
[05:01:56] <audioguy> I would say a voluteer has stepped up to try to get a task accomplished which we have so far proven ourselves incapable of. ;-) How different would the attitiude be if he were just a volutnter.
[05:01:59] <mrcoolbp> does that make sense?
[05:02:21] <mrcoolbp> audioguy: read my last two
[05:02:42] <kobach> agreed w/ audioguy and mrcoolbp
[05:02:46] <xlefay> mrcoolbp: I second that again; I understand audioguy though, but.. it's different somewhat. That's why.
[05:02:46] <audioguy> All that maaters is what os on the paper, not who asked a lawyer to write it. And there will be drafts....
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[05:03:11] <matt_> mrcoolbp, absolutely, but I think it's easy to read too much into it as what is proposed is really just replacing matt_ with a corporate person.
[05:03:26] <MrBluze> i am very thankful to you, matt_ actually
[05:03:46] <kobach> someone whos dealt with legaleze
[05:03:50] * matt_ thinks that someone should voice prospectacle
[05:03:52] <xlefay> Even though I don't agree with the manner you got ripped of, yes, that's how I'm calling it. I too am thankful.
[05:03:56] -!- mode/#staff [+v prospectacle] by what-if-i
[05:04:02] <prospectacle> thanks
[05:04:20] <xlefay> np
[05:04:30] <xlefay> .flags #staff prospectacle +V
[05:04:34] <xlefay> .flags prospectacle +V
[05:04:34] -ChanServ:#staff- xlefay set flags +V on prospectacle.
[05:04:37] <xlefay> err, fixed that
[05:04:53] <xlefay> (auto voice ;-))
[05:04:54] <kobach> its the prospectacle spectacle
[05:04:56] <kobach> !
[05:05:06] * kobach hears the crowd roar
[05:05:10] <matt_> MrBluze, thank you, and hopefully no lawyers are listening, but my willingness to assign rights away, etc. may reflect my own opinion of what my current rights are actually worth by themselves ;)
[05:06:00] <xlefay> Last question from me, what are the rights you "bought" worth, according to you?
[05:06:03] <mrcoolbp> matt_ and that's why we are very intrigued by you, sorr for the interrogation, we are just very passionate about this project
[05:06:18] <xlefay> agreed once again with mrcoolbp
[05:06:30] <xlefay> mrcoolbp: just stop.. before you know it, we're walking hand in hand, this cannot go on!
[05:06:32] <kobach> intrigued i think is the most correct word so far imo
[05:06:41] <matt_> xlefay, since purchasing B's rights eliminated the conflict that was tearing the community apart, priceless ;-)
[05:06:51] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: it's sickening, agreed
[05:07:08] <audioguy> Personally, I think paulej72 has the strongest case for ownership. Our chief asset is the site and its readers; he has contributed more directly visible code than anyone. ;-)
[05:07:17] <xlefay> mrcoolbp: lol | matt_: I see.
[05:07:35] <xlefay> I think we're trying to forgo the ownership thing in its entire, aren't we.
[05:07:49] <kobach> plus paulej72 has contributed greatly on irc
[05:08:29] <mattie_p> or NC who owns the linode it is hosted on ...
[05:08:29] <mrcoolbp> matt_ is there any way we can go on with your plan and have the corp be under someone like NCommander or Mattie_p?
[05:08:55] <mrcoolbp> ...until the NFP is set up
[05:08:58] <audioguy> Corporations have officers.
[05:09:23] <kobach> like the millitary? or like a board of directors?
[05:09:36] <audioguy> Both, usually.
[05:09:41] <kobach> oh ok
[05:09:56] <matt_> mrcoolbp, well, NC could incorporate and transfer his assetts to his corp., and I could incorporate and transfer my assetts to my corp., etc., which would actually be slightly better than our current situation, in which we are all personally responsible for the activities of SN
[05:09:57] <audioguy> Balance of powers.
[05:10:20] <matt_> mrcoolbp, but in reality, that would just wind up being more expensive/complicated, I think.
[05:10:26] <xlefay> which would mean, two corporations?
[05:10:39] <matt_> xlefay, which would then eventually have to merge....
[05:10:58] <matt_> mrcoolbp, again, the key thing to remember is that NC keeps his servers
[05:10:59] <xlefay> Then NC might just as well set up a corp and both of you transfer assets there?
[05:11:19] <xlefay> Or is that impossible for some reason?
[05:11:45] <kobach> ^
[05:12:40] <matt_> xlefay, that is also somewhat less-optimal, because I would either have to wait until the community adopts the final by-laws, in which case I could be held liable for things that happen on SN.org, or I would have to assign my rights to NC's corp. before the bylaws are adopted, in which case all power would be held by NC, which would not be a responsible course of action
[05:13:21] <mrcoolbp> matt_ versus you being responsible?
[05:13:22] <xlefay> Could not, mattie_p, you & NC co-own that coorperation?
[05:13:39] -!- robind [robind!~robind@Soylent/Staff/Sysop/robind] has joined #staff
[05:13:39] -!- mode/#staff [+v robind] by what-if-i
[05:13:48] <xlefay> Share responsibility?
[05:13:50] <matt_> mrcoolbp, Ah, I see the point that has been missed: NC will keep his servers, they do not go to my corp.
[05:14:08] <matt_> mrcoolbp, only the rights that I got from B go to the corp. until the final vote of the community.
[05:14:28] -!- MrBluze_ [MrBluze_!~daniel@Soylent/Staff/IRC/MrBluze] has joined #staff
[05:14:28] -!- mode/#staff [+v MrBluze_] by what-if-i
[05:14:56] <matt_> mrcoolbp, so (*very important*), I will have no more (or less) power after incorporation than before incorporation, I will only eliminate my personal liability.
[05:14:58] <matt_> make sense?
[05:15:08] <mrcoolbp> that does actually
[05:15:26] <mattie_p> back in a few, need to deal with kids, apparently
[05:15:27] <audioguy> This is why you have a board, and a ceo, typically. The ceo runs things, but the board can fire him. The shareholders elect the board. Baslance of power.
[05:15:55] <matt_> also, can you see why I thought it might not be the best idea to try to have this conversation last week? ;-)
[05:16:06] <mrcoolbp> yes
[05:16:07] <mrcoolbp> matt_: did you see xlefay's question?
[05:16:59] <matt_> xlefay, I believe that it could have multiple incorporators, however, this could present a risk as it would basically be like setting up the entire company without any bylaws...
[05:17:23] <xlefay> but it would mean power split of 33% each, correct?
[05:17:36] <xlefay> or are bylaws required for that?
[05:17:39] <matt_> if everyone contributes their assets (rights, servers, etc.), to a corp. with no bylaws, then it is not clear who has decision-making authority.
[05:17:51] <audioguy> ^^^^^^
[05:17:57] -!- MrBluze has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[05:18:28] <matt_> the safest thing seems to be to have the community-wide vote on bylaws before anyone combines their assets, I think.
[05:18:36] <xlefay> I see. So essentially, you won't surrender the domain name to NC or mattie_p only to the corp, or whatever you want to call it we'll set up and when it has bylaws, correct?
[05:18:39] <mrcoolbp> matt_ I think what doesn't sit well is you having all decision making authority (all your previous words notwithstanding, again you seem very cool)
[05:18:59] <audioguy> That is my position as well matt_
[05:19:18] <audioguy> Especially with this fractious bunch. ;-)
[05:19:33] <matt_> mrcoolbp, thanks (for the cool part), but keep in mind that my decision-making authority, by definition, extends only to the assets of the corp., which would only be the assets that I currently have.
[05:19:34] <mrcoolbp> matt_ you have to forgive me, I have very little knowledge of setting up corps and such
[05:19:52] <mrcoolbp> okay
[05:19:55] <matt_> therefore, there is no net increase in my decision-making authority, only a decrease in my personal legal liability.
[05:19:57] <matt_> make sense?
[05:20:34] <mrcoolbp> yes
[05:20:50] <matt_> xlefay, that is basically correct. that way, the community is protected in the event that a member of the leadership goes nuts (could never happen, right? ;)
[05:21:12] <mrcoolbp> matt_ if the vote on the name change happens tomorrow and soylent isn't one, where does that leave you?
[05:21:26] <mrcoolbp> soylent isn't the winner*
[05:21:43] <xlefay> matt_: actually, I've been quite vocal in the past about not having one person have all control. It seems unfortunately, as it stands for both you and NCommander it's a nessecary evil. Again, not personal to either of you, but the sooner all this stuff is setup, the better
[05:21:52] <mrcoolbp> yes he has
[05:21:55] <mrcoolbp> I can vouch
[05:22:06] <mrcoolbp> xlefay and myself often don't aggree
[05:22:13] <matt_> mrcoolbp, well, that gets into the issue of the "other rights" that we were discussing above. to reiterate, the idea here is to maintain a clear chain of ownership of B's rights, whatever he may think they are or whatever they may be in reality.
[05:22:39] <what-if-i> Let me be frank what I think of B's rights, he has the right to go fuck himself over and over, that's all.
[05:22:55] <mrcoolbp> matt_: ignore that
[05:23:00] <matt_> and, I assume you would be willing to testify to that in court ;)
[05:23:13] <matt_> that would be fun to watch ;)
[05:23:17] <mrcoolbp> matt_:I think that is where people are a little hazy
[05:23:20] <xlefay> what-if-i is a bot. Someone used him to say that.
[05:24:19] <matt_> mrcoolbp, think of it this way. i bought "rights" from B, the result of which was that B acknowledges that he gave up all of his rights in SN.
[05:24:52] <matt_> mrcoolbp, so the value of the "rights" is that whoever has them is protected from B making any claims.
[05:25:16] <matt_> mrcoolbp, which sounds like an asset that SN (or whatever the eventual name is) should ideally have ownership of.
[05:25:24] <mrcoolbp> right
[05:25:41] <mrcoolbp> i think you deserve to hear this:
[05:25:42] <mrcoolbp> matt_ all cards on the table you seem like a great person that we desperatly need, I think we are just trying to insure ourselves in case you are not. We've been burned by people who aren't what they seem
[05:25:42] <audioguy> xlefay: 'not having one person have all control...' This is why these forms such as coporations have evolved. To solve exactly that problem. WE are not the only fractious humans around.
[05:26:11] <mrcoolbp> matt_ and we have a lot invested
[05:26:33] <xlefay> audioguy: I figured something like that, but I wasn't entirely sure. Thank you, you've been giving some valuable advice (honestly).
[05:26:50] <matt_> mrcoolbp, very understandable, and as mentioned above (i forget by whom), the only way to have any real assurance of such things is to get it down on paper (i.e. get the incorporation, voting, and by-laws done).
[05:27:02] <audioguy> [looks up at the sky in fear]
[05:27:12] <kobach> lol
[05:27:46] <mrcoolbp> matt_ my inclination is to get a lawyer involved before we do anything, and I really don't want to offend you by saying that
[05:28:07] <mrcoolbp> i'm just a straight-up kind of person
[05:28:22] <matt_> mrcoolbp, also generally a good idea for most important things. of course, the question arises: who does the lawyer work for?
[05:28:33] <mrcoolbp> right, and who pays him
[05:28:36] <audioguy> Many of the organizations we all love have their bylaws and aticles of incorporation online. I know the ITEF does, and the inernet society. We should gather some up and cherry pick the best idea.
[05:28:40] <mrcoolbp> him/her
[05:28:40] <matt_> mrcoolbp, the answer is that the corporation will need its own lawyer.
[05:28:54] <matt_> mrcoolbp, and to have that, at a minimum, there needs to be a corporation :)
[05:28:56] <audioguy> Er IETF
[05:30:07] <prospectacle> I don't think matt_ can claim anything (From NC, the site in general, the staff) with a corp, that he couldn't claim without one. So if he's worried about his own liability in the short term he can incorporate and you can sort out mergers/donations, etc later.
[05:30:42] * matt_ knew that he would be glad to suggest that someone voice prospectacle ;)
[05:32:45] <mrcoolbp> that make sense too prospectacle
[05:32:55] <prospectacle> As a show of good faith you could make NCommander an officer/director/whatever you call it, in the articles of incorporation.
[05:34:33] <matt_> could do something like that. (directors are usually named in the by-laws, but am certainly open to a show of good-faith)
[05:34:57] <xlefay> In that case, might I honestly suggest you do both NCommander & mattie_p (if he's up for it)?
[05:35:04] <xlefay> Just for good measures.
[05:35:06] <audioguy> Interim directors.
[05:35:28] <mrcoolbp> yeah I'd feel great about that guys
[05:35:42] <prospectacle> I daresay if no one tries to pull a fast one, the legal costs could be recouped from donations. But don't hold me to that.
[05:36:03] <matt_> actually, because applying for 501(c)(3) requires specific language in the incorporation documents (i.e. clearly stating that the purpose of the corp. is nonprofit), perhaps that is the most effective showing of good-faith that can be made.
[05:36:09] <audioguy> We are all share holders. The share holders elect a board. The board appoint a ceo. If we hate their decision, we throw the bums out. ;-)
[05:36:31] <xlefay> s/throw the bums out/grab our pitchforks/
[05:36:34] <mattie_p> back, what am I signed up for now?
[05:36:35] <audioguy> As set forth in the intial bylaws.
[05:36:46] <mrcoolbp> mattie_p just sign here
[05:36:49] <kobach> ^
[05:36:55] <mattie_p> ok /scribble
[05:36:56] <audioguy> No pitchforks needed, that is actually the point.
[05:37:05] <xlefay> audioguy: I know, but it sounds so much better!
[05:37:14] <kobach> so we can go back to pitching hay instead, like hes been putting off all day
[05:37:23] * kobach looks at xlefay
[05:38:00] <audioguy> If the board appoints Barrabas, my sympathy will strongly align with your idea.
[05:38:20] <mrcoolbp> okay can someon recap? where are we at?
[05:38:41] <matt_> waiting for NC...
[05:38:49] <xlefay> mrcoolbp: on IRC, irc.soylentnews.org to be exact.
[05:38:56] <mrcoolbp> thanks......
[05:38:59] <mrcoolbp> matt_: yup
[05:41:20] <audioguy> Suggested plan:
[05:41:25] <audioguy> 1. Gahter examples
[05:41:31] <audioguy> 2. Edit to taste
[05:41:41] <audioguy> 3. Sibmit by a submission dealine.
[05:41:46] <audioguy> 4. Vote
[05:41:54] <audioguy> Vonte on any modifiactiopns
[05:41:58] <mrcoolbp> on bylaws?
[05:42:06] <audioguy> Vonte on any modifiactiopns5 .vote on any modes
[05:42:11] <audioguy> arrrgghhh
[05:42:22] <audioguy> 5. Vote on any mods.
[05:42:26] <mrcoolbp> wow audioguy, that's uncharacteristic of you
[05:43:01] <audioguy> 6. Once accepted, send initial bylaws to matt_ , beginf legal process.
[05:43:06] kobach is now known as mattiep
[05:43:17] <audioguy> mrcoolbp: , yeah,yeah...
[05:43:59] <audioguy> Truly, irc sucks for me.
[05:44:09] mattiep is now known as kobach
[05:44:41] <audioguy> Anyone agree?
[05:45:07] <kobach> i live on irc so...
[05:45:12] <mrcoolbp> audioguy: we need a strike-team for that, but it sounds sound
[05:45:19] <xlefay> hmm...
[05:45:20] <kobach> bbl
[05:45:20] <audioguy> The approach,
[05:45:25] <xlefay> I agree on the approach sure
[05:45:29] <MrBluze_> yep
[05:45:42] <MrBluze_> choose a name first
[05:45:43] <audioguy> Who will write it up as a draft to vote on?
[05:45:46] <MrBluze_> that's all i'd say
[05:45:47] <matt_> audioguy, if I can do the initial incorp. and begin filing for nonprofit while you guys work out the bylaws as you suggest, that sounds perfect.
[05:46:21] <audioguy> If the paranoids around here agree ;-)
[05:47:31] <xlefay> well, you got my vote already
[05:47:42] <matt_> MrBluze_, regarding the name (of the corp. not the site), that's why I was thinking that putting out a draft of the plan as a journal entry would be a good way to solicit suggestions from the community (in the comments).
[05:48:11] <mrcoolbp> matt_ let's have a chat with NCommander first, then that sounds logical
[05:48:16] <audioguy> How long a a period before final submissions for bylaws need be submitted? A time limit is important here.
[05:48:19] <matt_> mrcoolbp, absolutely.
[05:48:27] <MrBluze_> ok
[05:48:38] <mrcoolbp> matt_: I know you have been trying to do that BTW
[05:48:50] <audioguy> Two weeks?
[05:48:59] <audioguy> That would be end of month.
[05:49:16] <audioguy> On April 1 we vote?
[05:49:19] <matt_> audioguy, eta on perfectly-incorruptable voting system?
[05:49:30] <audioguy> Let's make that April 2 ;-)
[05:49:35] <xlefay> LOL
[05:49:36] <matt_> hahaha
[05:49:37] <mrcoolbp> yeah
[05:49:43] <audioguy> By email, in staff list
[05:49:45] <mrcoolbp> that would be better
[05:49:59] <mrcoolbp> april 1st = bad idea
[05:50:01] <mattie_p> email is good for staff discussion, but not for voting
[05:50:09] <xlefay> By the way, I still don't agree with months not starting at 0.
[05:50:32] <audioguy> Why is that mattie?
[05:50:32] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: noted
[05:50:45] <xlefay> mrcoolbp: man, I thought you would second that. Now I look silly.
[05:50:51] <MrBluze_> bbs
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[05:50:57] <mrcoolbp> oh sorry....
[05:50:59] <xlefay> k, take care mrbluze
[05:51:11] <mrcoolbp> lol
[05:51:17] <mattie_p> audioguy: we're talking about bylaws for the corporation that hosts the community, yes?
[05:51:41] <mrcoolbp> yeah, community should at least have a say in the bylaws
[05:51:42] <mattie_p> we can all discuss and vote there, but there should, IMO, be a period of public comment before we approve them
[05:52:59] <audioguy> WE are talking about the initial bylaws - preliminary workmg bylaws. Once a clear set of those, plus a draft of the incorporation stuff is available, we would open for the whole community to coment and vote.
[05:53:43] <mattie_p> audioguy, I concur
[05:54:23] <mrcoolbp> concur
[05:55:35] <mattie_p> initial draft should be for our consideration, but once we are ready to turn over domains, site hosting, etc, we need community comments
[05:56:38] <audioguy> Of course. This just helps speed things up a bit. If past experience is any indicator, our larger community tends to split on issues pretty close to how staff does.
[05:56:42] <mrcoolbp> mattie_p and that can be how we present it, we need to protect ourselves as a legal entity
[05:57:10] <mattie_p> yes
[05:57:29] <mattie_p> especially because some of us would like to get paid to do this thing, eventually
[05:57:47] <mrcoolbp> okay, well I need to sleep, otherwise wife will kill me. matt_: thanks for subjecting yourself to our inquisition
[05:58:16] <xlefay> Maybe tomorrow it can involve pitchforks and such? Nah kidding, thank you for your clear and honest answers.
[05:58:22] <xlefay> I most definitely appreciate it.
[05:58:29] <matt_> mrcoolbp, it was my pleasure. (actually, it is a relief, since I knew we needed to have the discussion soon).
[05:58:44] <mrcoolbp> excellent
[05:59:51] * matt_ thinks we may have effectively just accidentally had our first board meeting ;-)
[06:00:06] -!- Bender has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[06:00:25] <mrcoolbp> goodnight people!
[06:00:29] <audioguy> We have people not here. So need to send the basics out to staff list, perhaps with a note that if you agree, say nothing, if you want to revise something comment in staff list. Something like that?
[06:00:33] <mattie_p> oh, we've had plenty of these before
[06:01:00] <matt_> audioguy, perhaps we should wait to get NC's input first...
[06:01:37] <audioguy> I will leave that in your hands then.
[06:01:58] <audioguy> If you want me to write something, let me know.
[06:02:03] <mattie_p> NCommander, please check from here and scroll up
[06:02:06] <matt_> great! I'll just tell him to read the log :)
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[06:03:06] <audioguy> I need dinner.
[06:03:26] audioguy is now known as audioguy-afk
[06:07:15] <mrcoolbp> audioguy: yes that sounds perfect. I'm out see you guys later
[06:07:54] <mattie_p> later, mrcoolbp
[06:08:00] <mattie_p> also, enjoy dinner, audioguy
[06:08:23] <mrcoolbp> thanks for all the discussion guys, I'll catch you soon!
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[06:15:19] MrBluze_ is now known as MrBluze
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[06:28:38] <mattie_p> I'm heading to bed, who is still here who can take over?
[06:31:36] <mattie_p> I guess whoever comes on next then
[06:31:43] mattie_p changed topic of #staff to: need a commander
[06:31:49] <mattie_p> .deop
[06:31:49] -!- mode/#staff [-o mattie_p] by what-if-i
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[07:39:12] <stderr> Oops... Using the wrong from-address on an email to the staff mailing list... :-/
[07:39:50] <stderr> Anyone around to release it?
[07:44:56] FoobarBazbot is now known as FoobarBazbot|afk
[07:47:30] <stderr> Nevermind... Resent it.
[07:47:41] <stderr> Off to work... :-(
[07:47:43] <stderr> See you.
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[08:18:50] <FatPhil> I'm away backpacking for the next couple of weeks, so will sign out of the staff chan
[08:18:55] -!- FatPhil [FatPhil!~pcarmody@Soylent/Staff/Developer/FatPhil] has parted #staff
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[08:59:49] * NCommander is here and awake
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[09:32:30] -!- mode/#staff [+v Bender] by what-if-i
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[09:38:05] <xlefay> .op
[09:38:05] -!- mode/#staff [+o xlefay] by what-if-i
[09:38:12] <xlefay> Popeidol: hope you read the topic before you started speaking here
[09:58:05] <NCommander> .topic NCommander is in command
[09:58:10] <NCommander> huh
[09:58:17] <NCommander> why am I not authorized
[09:58:23] NCommander changed topic of #staff to: NCommander is in command
[09:59:28] <xlefay> .flags
[09:59:34] <NCommander> .flags
[09:59:38] <NCommander> not authroized
[09:59:54] <xlefay> .flags !management +Ff*
[09:59:54] -ChanServ:#staff- xlefay set flags +AFORfst on !management.
[09:59:54] -!- mode/#staff [+o mattie_p] by what-if-i
[10:00:00] <xlefay> .flags !management founder
[10:00:00] -ChanServ:#staff- xlefay set flags -O on !management.
[10:00:05] <xlefay> .deop mattie_p
[10:00:05] -!- mode/#staff [-o mattie_p] by what-if-i
[10:00:11] <xlefay> NCommander: you will find that to be fixed now
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[10:41:07] <MrBluze> .op
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[10:41:13] <MrBluze> .deop
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[10:41:41] <MrBluze> hi NCommander
[10:43:51] * NCommander waves to MrBluze
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[11:03:22] * MrBluze pokes NCommander
[11:03:30] * NCommander pokes MrBluze
[11:03:36] <MrBluze> ok checking
[11:03:39] <MrBluze> hi how are ya
[11:07:29] <NCommander> matt_, what's a good time to touch base?
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[13:59:45] <matt_> NCommander, just saw this. give me 30 min to have some coffee?
[13:59:58] <NCommander> matt_, sure
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[14:32:05] <matt_> hi, NCommander. welcome back to the states.
[14:32:37] <matt_> sorry for spamming your inbox, lately.
[14:32:56] * matt_ notes that his emails are like service packs: the important stuff is rolled into the most recent one.
[14:33:42] * NCommander disagrees, but receives an absurd number of emails per day
[14:34:11] <NCommander> matt_, so, I have skinned through your most recent emails, and the backlog here
[14:36:37] <NCommander> matt_, so right now, I need to figure out a couple of things
[14:36:56] <NCommander> matt_, right now, I'm back stateside, and after sleeping 16h, I'm running on EST (mostly)
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[14:38:46] <NCommander> matt_, I need you to answer one question, in one sentence, what do you see your role in SN as?
[14:41:18] <matt_> well, of course that is necessarily dependent on what SN *is* (in other words, what your vision is). I don't mean to be evasive, but if you want SN to become something like wikipedia, everyone's roles will presumably be very different than they will if you decide to take it in a different direction...
[14:42:01] <matt_> if the plan is to become something like wikipedia (run by volunteers), then I would be willing to volunteer my time if needed.
[14:43:06] <NCommander> matt_, let me rephrase the question. In relation to the staff, and the currently unincorperated group that runs the site, what do you see yourself as?
[14:43:52] <NCommander> (also, please hilight me by saying my nick, or it might take my awhile to notice)
[14:44:10] <matt_> NCommander: ah, that is an easier question to answer: I see myself as the person who is currently acting as caretaker of B's interest.
[14:44:51] <NCommander> matt_, do you see yourself as the owner of SN (as B did)?
[14:45:00] <matt_> NCommander, in other words, acting as caretaker of the rights that B transferred, for the benefit of the community/effort.
[14:45:28] <matt_> NCommander, that is a trick question. (because SN is people! :)
[14:45:42] <NCommander> matt_, legal owner.
[14:47:18] <matt_> NCommander, as discussed here last night, I would advocate maintaining a clear chain of (let's say custody instead of ownership) of whatever rights B may have had as a result of his contributions.
[14:47:24] <NCommander> Right
[14:47:27] <NCommander> That's the problem
[14:47:58] <NCommander> matt_, from where I'm sitting, Jon didn't legally own anything relating to the project
[14:49:05] <NCommander> Before he held us hostage, he resigned as head of SN, and transferred everything to me, including the DNS registar, but requested I didn't change the password/etc because of his personal stuff was on it
[14:49:21] <NCommander> He also asked I recoop his expenses, but before I would do that, I wanted to SAN check the math
[14:49:27] <matt_> I know, but I suspect that he would disagree. without needing to do any further analysis, I can therefore come to the conclusion that whatever he transferred to me had value at least in so far as it eliminated the conflict between the two of you (and the rest of the staff).
[14:49:39] <NCommander> matt_, alright, that's fair
[14:51:17] <matt_> NCommander, I guess my perspective is: since we (collectively) have custody of every part of SN, why not work towards finding a way to come together.
[14:52:08] <NCommander> matt_, right now, the problem is there are trust issues. We all got burned horribly by Jon, and then, (from our perspective), someone comes forth and pays off Jon. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't blame some of the staff for being suspecious
[14:52:55] <matt_> NCommander: for that reason it turned out to be quite a challenge for me to figure out a communication strategy that: A. didn't make it seem like I was trying to do a "back-room" deal by communicating in private, B. didn't make it seem like I was trying to circumvent your authority by communicating in public, and C. conveyed a sense of urgency that we move forward with some kind of plan to formalize the structure of the organization...
[14:52:56] <NCommander> I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but the last thing we need is another repeat of recent events
[14:53:15] <NCommander> matt_, *nods*, that's fair.
[14:53:33] <NCommander> The main reason incorperation was stalled was because I haven't been in the united states, and the 12h timezone difference sucked balls
[14:53:45] <NCommander> I can fairly say my ass is planted in NYC for the forseable future :-)
[14:54:03] <matt_> NCommander, as audioguy rightly pointed out last night: really the only way to alleviate peoples' concerns is to get something down on paper (i.e. move forward with some sort of formalization plan).
[14:54:11] <NCommander> matt_, ++
[14:54:51] <NCommander> matt_, alright, you've got real world experience that is valuable for this, but let me take charge here, I think it will help a lot w/ our recent trust issues.
[14:55:26] <NCommander> matt_, let me get something put together taking in your last email, and have you look it over before hand, then CC it to the rest of the staff
[14:55:42] <matt_> NCommander: also, consider the following question: why did I immediately turn over the linode passwords, etc.?
[14:56:01] <matt_> NCommander, the answer is that I understood that they had the greatest value in your hands...
[14:56:07] <NCommander> matt_, right, which is why I give you the benefit of the doubt :-). I think you are what you say you are.
[14:56:30] <matt_> NCommander, and similarly, I understand that whatever else I may have necessarily has greatest value if it is merged with everyone else's efforts.
[14:56:50] <matt_> NCommander. sounds good.
[14:57:27] <NCommander> matt_, right. ultimately, if we combine what you have (which in fact might be nothing, without a court review, its impossible to say definitively if you own anything at all), with what the rest of the staff owns, then the ownership question is put to bed.
[14:57:47] <matt_> NCommander: exactly :)
[14:59:20] <NCommander> matt_, alright, let me kick something together, then we need to decide what state we want to incorperate in (while I realize a bunch of people want to see us incorperate internationally, with the except of two members of the staff, I think all of us live in the continential united states)
[14:59:35] <NCommander> matt_, I need to acquire a permament address (probably in the state we want to incorperate in for ease of access reasons)
[15:00:02] <matt_> NCommander, ok. are there any specific points in the email that I sent that don't make sense?
[15:01:02] <matt_> NCommander: my thought with the plan as described was that it would allow things to go all the way to a community-wide vote on bylaws before anyone had to merge any assets...
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[15:01:49] <NCommander> matt_, what's needed is to define what SN is. In my perfect world, SN is owned by NFP with a mission statement to be more general, involving News in the Public Interest
[15:02:03] <NCommander> (that's what I would call the NFP if it wasn't a blanant ripoff of SPI)
[15:02:42] <matt_> NCommander, that sounds good for a variety of technical reasons too (getting 501(c)(3) status, getting 'freedom of the press' protections, etc.)
[15:03:49] <NCommander> matt_, I've never setup a NFP from scratch, but I was involved with several in a previous life, as well as fairly versed with criminal and civil law
[15:04:46] <NCommander> The NFP should define a framework for each site to be self-maintained, and the bylaws act as a specific consitute, while sites themselves can set additional policies as they like. The NFP defines also the governance model for both itself, and for the SN website
[15:05:01] <matt_> NCommander: I think the main thing that struck people as a bit off about the email I sent was that because the corporation would be set up to hold my assets while everyone figures out bylaws, it gave the impression that I was trying to increase my authority...
[15:05:15] <NCommander> matt_, yeah, I thought the same on first read :-/
[15:05:27] <matt_> ...when in fact, the point is simply to replace *meat-matt* with *corporate-person-matt*.
[15:05:38] <NCommander> Ie., lets assume we did a politics version of SN with a new slash instance, they would be under the NFP bubble, which defines specific freedoms/rights/etc, but that site can choose other things on its own
[15:06:07] <NCommander> At the risk of getting lighting bolted, I'm thinking something very close to the model of the original US consitution and states. (13 independent nations under a federal government)
[15:06:48] * matt_ I was thinking exactly the same thing (but was too embarrased to say it ;-)
[15:07:29] <Landon> please
[15:07:36] <Landon> everyone on the mailing list that writes comments inline
[15:07:45] <Landon> show some distinction between original message and your comments
[15:07:55] <NCommander> Landon, we need a mailing list 1:1
[15:07:57] <NCommander> er
[15:07:57] <NCommander> 101
[15:08:08] * NCommander doesn't need a 1:1 w/ the mailing list. That would be rather pointless
[15:08:13] <Landon> I don't really care whether they do it inline, above, below, but as long as I can tell what's your content
[15:09:48] <NCommander> matt_, I think the biggest sections that we need to cover is specifically the governence seperate between SN and the NFP, on what grounds the NFP's board of directors can intervene/etc., and a set of protections. Also how funds shall be used, etc.
[15:10:43] <NCommander> I'd like to keep the NFP governence model itself rather tradition to prevent hitting a legal landmine, with SN being a semi-antamous bubble. If the NFP isn't directly interfering with SN affairs, the community shouldn't care (ideally, the board and the site other interact on legal matters)
[15:10:44] <matt_> NCommander: absolutely. (I will point out that in the plan in my email, this part is left entirely to staff+community as nebulous "Step 4").
[15:11:25] <matt_> NCommander: this is sounding very much like the Wikimedia Foundation (a model that seems to be working very well so far)
[15:11:38] <xlefay> [citation needed]
[15:12:21] <stdhell> As long as we don't act like wikipedia is acting at the moment...
[15:12:46] <matt_> stdhell, what have they done? firing paid editors?
[15:13:01] <xlefay> worse, didn't provide citations where required?
[15:13:09] <NCommander> !grab matt_
[15:13:09] <Bender> Added quote 50
[15:13:11] <NCommander> !grab xlefay
[15:13:11] <Bender> Added quote 51
[15:16:43] <NCommander> matt_, that's something of the general idea I want (just looked more closely at how they're setup
[15:16:55] <NCommander> matt_, our interaction with SN should be basically office actions on wikipedia
[15:18:00] <matt_> NCommander, and the finances (handling donations) will be dealt with by the foundation.
[15:18:31] <NCommander> matt_, bingo
[15:18:44] <matt_> NCommander, another benefit of such a structure:
[15:19:26] <matt_> NCommander, there has been some discussion in the comments about "capping" donations to make sure that SN has just what it needs...
[15:20:07] <xlefay> 'capping'?
[15:20:16] <matt_> NCommander, but in a central-foundation-plus-satellite-site model, the foundation can basically establish what would amount to an "endowment", like a university.
[15:20:51] <NCommander> matt_, *nnod*
[15:21:09] <matt_> xlefay, in other words, asking for just enough to pay for hosting, etc., then going back to the community to ask for more, as needed.
[15:21:11] <stdhell> matt_: The constant ads... "Give us money... Money... MONEY!!!"
[15:21:14] <NCommander> matt_, we do need to figure out specific on employement, I see a need for hired staff.
[15:21:25] <matt_> NCommander, by far the most expensive expense.
[15:21:55] <NCommander> matt_, well, for most work, I think we can hire them on I-1099, which at least keeps our burden relatively easy
[15:22:04] <NCommander> If we ever need W-2 staff, life getting annoying
[15:22:57] <matt_> NCommander, what (paid) positions do you believe will need to be filled in the near term?
[15:23:21] <NCommander> matt_, contract developers who can work on specific feature implementations on staff if we can't get in-house efforts to do so
[15:23:49] <NCommander> Possibly full time sysadmins if we find efforts falling short.
[15:24:10] <matt_> NCommander, I know that there has been some push-back in the comments about adding new feature too quickly, but not sure what the right answer/balance there is...
[15:24:20] <NCommander> matt_, most of it is backend work that *has* to get done
[15:24:29] <NCommander> matt_, port to mod_perl 2.x, templating engine rework, etc.
[15:24:29] <matt_> NCommander, I see.
[15:24:57] <NCommander> That isn't features from a user perspective, but sanity from we are
[15:25:06] * NCommander could do the work, but there are only so many hours in a day ...
[15:25:18] <xlefay> If I may suggest, how about a full time editor (if budget permits?) that could also look for stories? We're seeing a bit of low quality stories and the submission queue can get low at times. (just something to consider)
[15:25:40] <NCommander> xlefay, indeed, that was on my thoughts list, I'd actually like to see Soylent be both an aggitatory and primary reporting source
[15:25:49] <NCommander> Get staff on planes to events to report onscene
[15:26:33] <xlefay> Sounds cool but also like a long-term plan
[15:26:35] * NCommander notes he really has to get the Soylent Manifesto written, as well the News in the Public Interest manifestos written
[15:26:44] <NCommander> xlefay, agreed, that's at year+1 if not more
[15:27:31] <xlefay> NC, you've got a lot on your plate, surely you have things others can do? Lower the workload?
[15:27:36] <NCommander> Our goals for the end of the year are full NFP incorperation, formation of governmance models for SoylentNews, cash flow positive w.r.t. to hosting expenses, framework for accepting donations, working business plan
[15:27:52] <xlefay> That sounds like a great start ;-)
[15:28:00] <NCommander> xlefay, I've handed off as much as I think I can
[15:28:00] <matt_> agreed.
[15:28:07] <xlefay> Nice.
[15:28:13] <NCommander> xlefay, TBH, I think I need to write the manifestos because as site leader, it *is* my responsibility
[15:28:26] <NCommander> and Jon's biggest failing is we got a load of hot air on that
[15:28:39] <xlefay> It is your responsibility and yeah.. you should ;)
[15:28:48] <NCommander> I'm kinda ticked I haven't managed it yet
[15:28:51] <xlefay> I was thinking about other stuff, but it seems you got that covered alreayd ;-)
[15:28:53] <NCommander> But we had *DRAMA*
[15:29:04] <xlefay> and then more drama and then more drama
[15:29:06] <xlefay> let's break the cycle ;-)
[15:29:09] <matt_> NCommander, the draft manifesto that you sent last week is focused mainly on organization (as opposed to purpose/vision). is that a fair assesment?
[15:29:20] <NCommander> matt_, it was our basic operation guides for the staff
[15:29:42] <NCommander> matt_, one of the primary problems w/ Jon is we simply couldn't work in a cooridinated fashion. No clear hierachy, method of operations, etc.
[15:29:57] <NCommander> matt_, while ICS is not perfect, it has at least let us managed to *run*
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[15:30:17] <matt_> NCommander, I see. makes sense.
[15:30:22] <NCommander> matt_, the general of feeling in #staff before that was ranging from "ugh" to "we're doomed"
[15:30:41] * mrcoolbp is waking up and reading backlog
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[15:31:00] <NCommander> !todo write quick "what we're doing email" to staff-list
[15:31:00] <Bender> todo item 9 added
[15:31:02] <NCommander> !todo
[15:31:04] <Bender> todo for ncommander: 1) make sure install-slashsite installs proper schema 2) port slash to mod_perl 2 3) confirm w/ paulej72 that we are good to TRANSFORM AND ROLLOUT 4) rename Janek Kozicki to cosurgi 5) quit smoking 6) look at rewiring pollbooth for SERIOUS votes 7) rename stderr_dk -> stderr 8) write up YAFAP for nethack 9) write quick "what we're doing email" to - 1 more
[15:31:16] <NCommander> !todo-done 3
[15:31:16] <Bender> 1 item deleted
[15:31:32] <NCommander> !todo compare notes with mechanicjay+robind on bringing up staging.sn.org
[15:31:32] <Bender> todo item 9 added
[15:31:38] <NCommander> !todo
[15:31:38] <Bender> todo for ncommander: 1) make sure install-slashsite installs proper schema 2) port slash to mod_perl 2 3) rename Janek Kozicki to cosurgi 4) quit smoking 5) look at rewiring pollbooth for SERIOUS votes 6) rename stderr_dk -> stderr 7) write up YAFAP for nethack 8) write quick "what we're doing email" to staff-list 9) compare notes with mechanicjay+robind on bringing - 1 more
[15:31:46] <NCommander> !todo-done 2
[15:31:46] <Bender> 1 item deleted
[15:32:02] <NCommander> !todo find volunteer who may be willing to work on mod_perl rework effort
[15:32:02] <Bender> todo item 9 added
[15:32:55] * matt_ had something to do, but he can't remember what it was...
[15:32:57] <matt_> !todo
[15:32:57] <Bender> todo for matt_: 1) something
[15:33:04] <NCommander> That's incredibly useful
[15:33:04] <matt_> well, that wasn't very helpful.
[15:33:16] <xlefay> heh you're first fight? :)
[15:33:22] <paulej72> NCommander: are we holding off updating the site until we get staging set up?
[15:33:39] <NCommander> paulej72, yeah. Honestly, the last thing we want to do right now is break the damn thing agian
[15:34:59] <paulej72> NCommander: we need to have a meeting with dev and ops to go over all of this and make sure we are doing it in a sane way.
[15:35:11] <NCommander> paulej72, agreed.
[15:35:18] <NCommander> paulej72, we actually need to setup a general staff meeting
[15:35:30] <NCommander> !todo discuss staff meeting on staff mailing list
[15:35:30] <Bender> todo item 10 added
[15:35:32] <NCommander> !todo
[15:35:34] <Bender> todo for ncommander: 1) make sure install-slashsite installs proper schema 2) rename Janek Kozicki to cosurgi 3) quit smoking 4) look at rewiring pollbooth for SERIOUS votes 5) rename stderr_dk -> stderr 6) write up YAFAP for nethack 7) write quick "what we're doing email" to staff-list 8) compare notes with mechanicjay+robind on bringing up staging.sn.org 9) find volunteer - 1 more
[15:35:47] * NCommander winces
[15:36:37] <stdhell> NCommander: Stop making Bender say my name!
[15:36:39] <stdhell> :-)
[15:36:40] <NCommander> !todo get his soylentnews.org email setup from jay/robind
[15:36:40] <Bender> todo item 11 added
[15:36:57] <NCommander> stdhell, let me do you now
[15:37:15] <mrcoolbp> !grab NCommander
[15:37:15] <Bender> Added quote 52
[15:37:29] <xlefay> NCommander: I can do the email if you like.
[15:37:35] <xlefay> Only jay & I have access afaik
[15:37:43] <NCommander> xlefay, on what?
[15:37:48] <NCommander> oh, my email
[15:37:49] <xlefay> You want a mailbox, no?
[15:37:53] <NCommander> s�
[15:37:57] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: mailbox, they are working but a tad buggy
[15:38:01] <NCommander> "joy"
[15:38:07] <xlefay> NCommander: pm
[15:38:31] <paulej72> NCommander: I am still trying to get someone to fully sing off on my last merge. FatPhil was looking at it but never gave me a full go ahead. Audioguy said it should be fine, but that was based off of using slashcott.org. I need to touch base with FatPhil again to see if he looked into my code some more.
[15:38:34] <NCommander> stdhell, er, it appears someone already renamed you
[15:39:02] <NCommander> mysql> SELECT nickname FROM users WHERE nickname = 'stderr'\G
[15:39:02] <NCommander> *************************** 1. row ***************************
[15:39:02] <NCommander> nickname: stderr
[15:39:20] <stdhell> On the wiki?
[15:39:24] <NCommander> stdhell, oh, the wiki
[15:39:28] <NCommander> stdhell, I don't have access to that box :-)
[15:39:32] <NCommander> !todo-done 5
[15:39:32] <Bender> 1 item deleted
[15:39:45] <mrcoolbp> wiki: I have admin, not super admin though
[15:40:04] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: that box is on your accound
[15:40:08] <mrcoolbp> account*
[15:40:13] <stdhell> NCommander: How about slashcott?
[15:40:13] <FunPika> which needs an extension that touches like half a dozen tables (don't ask why MediaWiki does that), so no one just do an update on the user table if they have access please, it could break stuff
[15:40:17] * NCommander renames cosurgi
[15:40:46] <NCommander> !todo-done 2
[15:40:46] <Bender> 1 item deleted
[15:40:48] <NCommander> !todo
[15:40:50] <Bender> todo for ncommander: 1) make sure install-slashsite installs proper schema 2) quit smoking 3) look at rewiring pollbooth for SERIOUS votes 4) write up YAFAP for nethack 5) write quick "what we're doing email" to staff-list 6) compare notes with mechanicjay+robind on bringing up staging.sn.org 7) find volunteer who may be willing to work on mod_perl rework effort 8) discuss - 1 more
[15:40:58] <paulej72> stderr: slashcott is temporary an will be gone soon
[15:41:04] <NCommander> stdhell, I don't believe I still have root there
[15:41:08] <paulej72> hopefully
[15:41:15] <stdhell> paulej72: How soon is soon?
[15:42:21] <paulej72> soon as we get a real dev server set up. Looks like staging will be the first box setup, then what ever we call dev should be shortly after that.
[15:42:22] <mrcoolbp> .op
[15:42:22] -!- mode/#staff [+o mrcoolbp] by what-if-i
[15:42:24] <NCommander> I think we can get staging up today if I can compare notes
[15:42:31] <matt_> NCommander: so, in light of everything discussed above, do you want to take another look at my email and decide whether it should be tweaked, reworked, or torn up and started fresh? it would be nice to get some kind of draft plan for setting up the NFP in front of the full community, I think.
[15:42:33] <NCommander> paulej72, staging *is* the dev server
[15:42:43] <NCommander> matt_, yeah
[15:43:03] <paulej72> OK hard to remember which server is which
[15:43:29] <NCommander> paulej72, we need big sticky notes
[15:43:35] <mrcoolbp> huge ones
[15:43:52] <paulej72> or just better names :)
[15:43:56] <kobach> ^
[15:44:17] <paulej72> I vote we alias some of these names.
[15:44:19] <xlefay> I suggest we all name them "soylent"
[15:44:28] <xlefay> Nothing could possibly go wrong.
[15:44:54] <stdhell> xlefay: "Soylent Green", "Soylent Red" and "Soylent Yellow"?
[15:44:56] <xlefay> paulej72: how about we call one 'adam' and the other 'eve'?
[15:45:03] <xlefay> hmm that works tooo
[15:45:26] <paulej72> I would rather have qa and dev
[15:45:46] <NCommander> Soylent Fudge!
[15:45:48] <NCommander> mmmm fudge
[15:45:59] <NCommander> Honestly, we can color code them
[15:46:07] <paulej72> then it would go dev => qa => production
[15:46:08] <stdhell> "Purple is a fruit..."
[15:46:16] <NCommander> Mainsite is red, dev site is blue, qa site is orange?
[15:46:46] <NCommander> qa should be running against the production database, and we should to the extent possible prevent any destructive schema changes
[15:49:21] <paulej72> the real problem is that templates live in the database and are update during a proper slash install. I still think it is better to run qa against qa_db so we can test both types of changes
[15:49:51] -!- mechanicjay [mechanicjay!~jhowe@Soylent/Staff/Developer/mechanicjay] has joined #staff
[15:49:51] -!- mode/#staff [+v mechanicjay] by what-if-i
[15:50:07] <NCommander> paulej72, to make QA a reality, that HAS to be fixed
[15:50:09] <paulej72> mechanicjay: we were just discussing you
[15:50:34] <mechanicjay> very good -- what's up?
[15:50:36] <NCommander> mechanicjay, we've decided to operate on you, and replace the mechnanic bits with a gerbil on a wheel. You will be known as gerbiljay
[15:50:37] * NCommander ducks
[15:50:45] <mechanicjay> :(
[15:50:58] <NCommander> mechanicjay, making a dev box appear out of the nether
[15:51:05] <NCommander> paulej72, we also need it fixed to support user selected skins, which is a big thing for me
[15:52:17] <NCommander> mechanicjay, I can generate something that is basically a clone of dev or the VM, but I wantd to chat before I did it. Don't want to step on toes here
[15:53:01] <paulej72> NCommander: yes that is important, but I beleve there are other more pressing bugs that should be work on instead. Like the homepage TZ bug that causes the site not to update for a user. A lot of people are having this issue and it may be related to varnish
[15:53:50] <xlefay> stdhell: paulej72: also, I wouldn't use the name 'soylent' ... we might change that in the future so I'd keep that off the hostnames personally.
[15:53:54] <NCommander> paulej72, agreed. recommend that ATM we dump production, search replace domain name, import on dev, disable static page generation (to test that feature as well), then see if you can fix it
[15:54:27] <NCommander> *production DB
[15:54:33] <mrcoolbp> BRB breakfast
[15:54:54] <NCommander> paulej72, we can live without QA persay for the moment, but lets get it on the short-term goals
[15:55:00] <NCommander> *QA server
[15:56:14] <mechanicjay> okay, don't worry about stepping on any toes. I'm busy enough with other (Full time job) stuff for the next few weeks. I'm happy to help to help if you need it, but if you can do it with basically a clone and DB load -- don't wait on my account
[15:58:03] <paulej72> NCommander: I am happy with that plan, although I am not an expert in the backend or varnish, so I am not sure what I can do to fix that bug.
[15:58:36] <NCommander> paulej72, I can setup varnish to match how it is on production, and I can give you admin privelleges on th ebox
[15:58:51] <NCommander> paulej72, so if something comes in and wants access, you can grant it
[16:00:11] <NCommander> !todo
[16:00:11] <Bender> todo for ncommander: 1) make sure install-slashsite installs proper schema 2) quit smoking 3) look at rewiring pollbooth for SERIOUS votes 4) write up YAFAP for nethack 5) write quick "what we're doing email" to staff-list 6) compare notes with mechanicjay+robind on bringing up staging.sn.org 7) find volunteer who may be willing to work on mod_perl rework effort 8) discuss - 1 more
[16:00:19] <NCommander> !todo-done 6
[16:00:19] <Bender> 1 item deleted
[16:00:21] <NCommander> !todo
[16:00:23] <Bender> todo for ncommander: 1) make sure install-slashsite installs proper schema 2) quit smoking 3) look at rewiring pollbooth for SERIOUS votes 4) write up YAFAP for nethack 5) write quick "what we're doing email" to staff-list 6) find volunteer who may be willing to work on mod_perl rework effort 7) discuss staff meeting on staff mailing list 8) get his soylentnews.org email - 1 more
[16:00:32] <NCommander> !todo-done 8
[16:00:32] <Bender> 1 item deleted
[16:00:34] <NCommander> !todo
[16:00:36] <Bender> todo for ncommander: 1) make sure install-slashsite installs proper schema 2) quit smoking 3) look at rewiring pollbooth for SERIOUS votes 4) write up YAFAP for nethack 5) write quick "what we're doing email" to staff-list 6) find volunteer who may be willing to work on mod_perl rework effort 7) discuss staff meeting on staff mailing list
[16:00:43] <NCommander> weee
[16:00:49] <NCommander> Its *starting* to look more reasonable
[16:01:52] <stdhell> !todo Hack NCommanders IRC account and add more stuff to his todo
[16:01:52] <Bender> todo item 2 added
[16:03:29] <NCommander> !todo poof qa server into existence
[16:03:29] <Bender> todo item 8 added
[16:03:53] <NCommander> !todo-done 8
[16:03:53] <Bender> 1 item deleted
[16:03:59] <NCommander> !todo poof development server into existence
[16:03:59] <Bender> todo item 8 added
[16:06:51] -!- robind has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[16:06:56] <NCommander> xlefay, we got signed by CACert?
[16:07:22] <NCommander> mechanicjay, BTW, we need to figure out certificate management at some point
[16:08:08] <mechanicjay> NCommander: agreed. AFAIK, there's a SAN cert on the site for www.sn.org and sn.org. I grabbed a *.sn.org from cacert when trying to set up mail stuff. I don't know of any other certs ATM.
[16:08:45] <mechanicjay> well not only mail stuff, but for the services box, since there about 7 different host names pointed at that box, *. seemed the easiest.
[16:08:48] * NCommander has CACert's root imported locally, but knows he's the exception
[16:09:28] <NCommander> *.sn is properly approate given the sheer amount of crap we have
[16:12:48] -!- MrBluze|zzz has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[16:13:25] * matt_ has to go develop a cure for Alzheimer's disease now (his day job).
[16:13:27] <matt_> NCommander, i will await your email, then, and perhaps we can reconnect later?
[16:13:34] <NCommander> matt_, alright, NP
[16:13:42] <matt_> great!
[16:14:07] <mrcoolbp> see you soon matt_
[16:14:32] <kobach> need a cure? http://www.sciencedirect.com
[16:14:38] <mrcoolbp> paulej72: NCommander: would you (or another dev) like to do a writeup for the main page requesting perl devs?
[16:15:52] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, I'll combine it with the annoucement that dev.soylentnews.org is operational
[16:16:02] <mrcoolbp> great
[16:16:59] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: we are still getting a lot of bounced emails from the newsletter, do you want me to just keept deleting them?
[16:17:06] -!- matt_ has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[16:17:08] -!- janrinok [janrinok!~janrinok@Soylent/Staff/Editor/janrinok] has joined #staff
[16:17:08] -!- mode/#staff [+v janrinok] by what-if-i
[16:17:15] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, which newsletter? Soylent?
[16:17:19] <mrcoolbp> yes
[16:17:35] <janrinok> he guys - welcome back NCommander
[16:17:40] <janrinok> hi*
[16:17:40] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, I think I can change the address those send to to be noreply, and then /dev/null them
[16:18:09] <mrcoolbp> okay, I'll pester you about it in a few days if you forget = )
[16:18:54] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, let me know when noreply is created, and I'll go tinker with the database
[16:19:11] <mrcoolbp> aye sir.
[16:19:39] <mrcoolbp> mechanicjay: are you the email address creator?
[16:19:55] <mechanicjay> mrcoolbp: I can be, I think xlefay has access to.
[16:20:06] <mrcoolbp> can you setup noreply@SN?
[16:20:24] <mechanicjay> Should that be a foward to anywhere, or a real mailbox?
[16:20:31] <mrcoolbp> NCommander ^^^
[16:21:11] <NCommander> Send it to devnull
[16:21:29] <NCommander> We'll set slash to make stuff like the newsletter come from there
[16:23:05] <mechanicjay> Well that gets irritating with virtual domains...stand by.
[16:23:42] <mrcoolbp> We could add a line in the newsletter that says "to unsubscribe: [directions to unsubscribe via prefs]"
[16:24:03] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, I *added* that notice
[16:24:03] <paulej72> mrcoolbp: I thought there is one now
[16:24:19] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: oh sorry, and thanks
[16:24:44] <paulej72> OK I am off to lunch
[16:25:13] <mrcoolbp> okay, later paulej72
[16:25:30] <paulej72> later all
[16:25:38] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: how hard would it be to create a static page that we could link to to this effect: http://soylentnews.org
[16:26:00] <mrcoolbp> obviously not the journal itself, we can wrap it into it's own page and link from the FAQ
[16:26:10] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, trivial. Place the file in theme/slashcode/*, then link to it from somewhere
[16:26:20] <mrcoolbp> not htdocs?
[16:26:21] <mechanicjay> okay, noreply exists -- it's currently a real mailbox, will configure to route to the bit bucket later.
[16:26:31] <NCommander> mechanicjay, thanks
[16:26:55] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: not htdocs?
[16:26:59] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, htdocs is installed to by the symlink script. htdocs just has the template config file, the rest of the contents is autogenerated
[16:27:18] <janrinok> mrcoolbp: I'm currently transferring GungnirSnipers journal to a wiki page - I am waiting for a response from him.
[16:27:21] <mechanicjay> !todo make noreply@sn.org route into the ground
[16:27:21] <Bender> todo item 1 added
[16:27:53] <mrcoolbp> janrinok: Cool, I'd like to have it on the main as a static file also, maybe we should wait for some review on the wiki first
[16:27:54] <mechanicjay> !todo finish documenting mail setup on the soylent-services wiki page
[16:27:54] <Bender> todo item 2 added
[16:28:04] <kobach> route it into the sky, so mail blows all over the ground
[16:28:08] <janrinok> mrcoolbp: OK
[16:28:22] <mechanicjay> kobach: I can alias it to forward to you ;)
[16:28:35] <NCommander> Huh
[16:28:42] <mrcoolbp> janrinok: let me know when you have it up there if you could?
[16:28:47] <NCommander> I just found where you can change the comments min/max scores
[16:28:50] <NCommander> WHO WANTS +10 COMMENTS?
[16:28:54] <mrcoolbp> <---me
[16:29:10] <NCommander> Turns on hardcoded layout (this is a Slashdot only feature)
[16:29:10] <mechanicjay> help me out -- what does that even mean?
[16:29:11] <kobach> mechanicjay: id rather not :p
[16:29:20] <kobach> NCommander: rofl
[16:29:24] <NCommander> mechanicjay, lets a comment get moderated to +10
[16:29:55] <mechanicjay> ah! Yes, please moderate all my comments to +10. It's taking way to long to build my karma to 50.
[16:30:02] <kobach> ^
[16:30:06] <mechanicjay> :)
[16:30:10] -!- kobach [kobach!~nope@Soylent/Staff/IRC/kobach] has parted #staff
[16:30:21] <NCommander> !todo clean production database of unused vars/tables from Tags/FIrehose/Achievements
[16:30:21] <Bender> todo item 9 added
[16:31:04] <NCommander> Enable the ircslash task and connect to an IRC channel whenever slashd starts
[16:31:09] <NCommander> ^- that sounds like something we want
[16:31:21] <NCommander> xlefay, I think we should look at getting ircslash operational
[16:31:39] * NCommander notes there's also jabber slash
[16:31:49] <stdhell> NCommander: Here a +5 Informative about mod points... Make that +10... http://soylentnews.org
[16:33:33] <mrcoolbp> stdhell: that bit of info is in the mod doc now: http://soylentnews.org
[16:33:34] <NCommander> Turn on to disable local search (and invite users to use google.com)
[16:33:34] <NCommander> !
[16:33:43] <NCommander> I think that be something worth enabling
[16:34:01] <NCommander> Ok
[16:34:03] <mechanicjay> can we enable alta vista instead?
[16:34:05] <NCommander> mailfrom variable set
[16:34:07] <NCommander> mechanicjay, probably
[16:34:12] * NCommander bounces apache and slashd
[16:34:41] * mechanicjay notes that altavista.com is yahoo property and now redirects to search.yahoo.com
[16:34:42] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: do we need to modify robot.txt to have internet archive crawl us (notes that sounds sexy)
[16:35:20] <NCommander> slash and apache restarted
[16:36:04] <mrcoolbp> mechanicjay: what else do we need to test/fix before we rollout mailboxes to all staff?
[16:36:47] <mechanicjay> !todo figure-out why squilmail/postfixadmin plugin looses it's mind post password reset.
[16:36:47] <Bender> todo item 3 added
[16:37:06] <mechanicjay> mrcoolbp: seems we're good on the archive.org front: https://web.archive.org
[16:37:42] <mrcoolbp> mechanicjay: I know at least bytram/martyb was doing manual crawls
[16:38:36] <NCommander> mechanicjay, did you grant me shell access to svc? I'd like to get a calendar something up with an ical feed on it
[16:38:47] <mechanicjay> !todo get postfix/ssl/tls working on ports 465/587
[16:38:47] <Bender> todo item 4 added
[16:38:53] * NCommander notes that services box is disturbingly overloaded ....
[16:39:23] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: do you want to set me up with a low-priv accnt on linode?
[16:39:27] <FunPika> Also, for whoever has access to services, it should be safe to nuke the forums from orbit. Anything that I thought was useful is now on the wiki.
[16:39:28] <mechanicjay> NCommander: yeah, I though I made you an account. And, yes it is distrubingly overloaded
[16:39:44] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, what do you need access for?
[16:39:48] <mechanicjay> !todo nuke forums.soylentnews.org
[16:39:48] <Bender> todo item 5 added
[16:39:56] <NCommander> yay
[16:40:04] <NCommander> (need to know what privs to give you)
[16:40:17] <mechanicjay> I'll add a redirect for forums to wiki so people get something useful.
[16:40:41] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: not sure, just trying to duplicate privs as per previous discussions
[16:40:57] <mechanicjay> mrcoolbp: I don't think the archive.org robot needs anything special in the robots.txt to allow crawling.
[16:41:00] <NCommander> mechanicjay, meh, can't we just change the A record? :-)
[16:41:05] <NCommander> or CNAME record
[16:42:17] <mechanicjay> as it all ends on the same box...Could just let the wiki vhost grab traffic for forums as well -- that may lead to unexpected results though.
[16:42:24] <mechanicjay> I'll figure it out
[16:43:13] <stdhell> What do we want archive.org to index? Right now a lot of stuff is disallowed for all crawlers, incl. archive.org.
[16:43:55] <NCommander> mediawiki != slash
[16:44:01] <NCommander> It doesn't go snickersnap as much
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[16:47:28] <mechanicjay> stdhell: okay, that's a better question. Yeah, right now, crawlers I guess are getting the main index and comments. Not sure we need to exclude the users pages, as I think that is of historical significance as well.
[16:48:39] <xlefay> NCommander: sure we can get that working, last I checked that code it wasn't really that useful tho ?
[16:49:23] <NCommander> xlefay, hadn't checked, but I thought it put a log fom a channel we choose in a slashbox
[16:49:31] <NCommander> Which might be interesting to get people to check out IRC
[16:49:32] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: wrt to linode account: nevermind, looking over privs, not sure there's much I could do
[16:49:53] <xlefay> https://github.com lets take a look
[16:49:54] <NCommander> mechanicjay, actually, you should have an "unrestricted" linode account as well
[16:50:10] * NCommander *does* restrict it slightly to prevent deletetion/account cancelation as a safety check
[16:50:34] <xlefay> https://github.com maybe even the most interesting from it all.
[16:51:51] <xlefay> NCommander: by all means set it up, don't think it actually logs anything to a slashbox. I still have to rewrite "loggie" to provide plain text logs that can be parsed individually.
[16:52:19] <NCommander> xlefay, we can experiment w/ it on the dev box
[16:52:47] <xlefay> Sounds good. With we, you mean you since I don't have access there :p
[16:52:54] <xlefay> Did I read something about an email that needed adding?
[16:53:33] <mrcoolbp> xlefay: all set
[16:53:38] <mrcoolbp> mechanicjay: what else do we need to test/fix before we rollout mailboxes to all staff?
[16:53:39] <mechanicjay> xlefay: i got it -- though if you wanted to beat postfix/dovecot over the head to get noreply to end up at /dev/null/ be my guest ;)
[16:53:41] <NCommander> xlefay, mechaniackay got it. a noreply email that goes to dev/null
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[16:54:09] <mrcoolbp> .voice FungnirSniper
[16:54:15] <mrcoolbp> .voice GungnirSniper
[16:54:15] -!- mode/#staff [+v GungnirSniper] by what-if-i
[16:54:20] <xlefay> <NCommander> xlefay, we got signed by CACert? -> mechanicjay can you create/give me the stuff for an irc cert?
[16:54:53] <mrcoolbp> GungnirSniper: we'd like to make use of your journal entry, did janrinok contact you?
[16:54:58] <xlefay> mechanicjay: good luck with that. Best bet is to simply disregard anything that comes in there, or just set up a mailbox that gets pruned every day or so
[16:55:07] <GungnirSniper> Yes, I gave the OK.
[16:55:10] <mechanicjay> mrcoolbp: Need to get postfix and SSL/TLS working on ports 465/587. Figure out why password resets make the squirellmail/postfix plugin lose it's mind.
[16:55:18] <mrcoolbp> ah
[16:55:27] <xlefay> mechanicjay: postfix + TLS works fine here.
[16:56:11] <mrcoolbp> GungnirSniper: cool thank you for that!
[16:56:14] <mechanicjay> Yeah, but it's running over port 25, since lots of places still filter direct connections to 25, getting working on one of the "Mail submission ports" would be good
[16:56:15] <xlefay> except auth is plain :'(
[16:56:35] <mechanicjay> xlefay: Like I said, not quite fully baked yet
[16:56:36] <xlefay> mechanicjay: should be as simple as editing the master file, iirc
[16:56:59] <xlefay> mechanicjay: it's tricky ;-)
[16:57:13] <mechanicjay> Postfix is listening on 465, but there's a problem with the way I have the certs configured, I guess, since it blows errors in the logs faster than you can read when a connection comes in there.
[16:57:30] <xlefay> Mail servers might very well be the worst services to config
[16:57:38] <mechanicjay> xlefay: Agreed!
[16:58:01] <mechanicjay> xlefay: it's just a bunch of random ass services that sort of maybe play together nicely.
[16:58:06] <xlefay> Honestly, 5+ years and they still bug me!
[16:58:09] <xlefay> Yes, exactly!
[16:58:10] <mechanicjay> xlefay: also, I'll email you the cert tonight
[16:58:21] <xlefay> Thank you, that's most appreciated! :-)
[16:58:52] <xlefay> mechanicjay: honestly though, it might have been better if we had just thrown some open source baked config panel on the machine
[16:59:10] <mechanicjay> at this point, you might be right!
[16:59:12] <xlefay> That would have saved us a lot of trouble, but it would have came with a lot of unneeded crap
[16:59:16] <NCommander> I swear, the damn svc box is going to become sentient and eat us
[16:59:27] <xlefay> (SysCP is awesome, since you can define what services you want and which not)
[16:59:37] <NCommander> Honestly, what we need to do is probably rebuild it as a lxc master
[16:59:44] <NCommander> THen get each service in a seperate lxc bubble
[16:59:59] <xlefay> lxc, I've heard of that. It's a container virtualization, no?
[17:00:09] <xlefay> Comparable to FreeBSD jails?
[17:00:15] <NCommander> Yeah, similar to Solaris zones or BSD jails
[17:00:15] <xlefay> or more like OpenVZ?
[17:00:26] <mechanicjay> huh - clever: https://linuxcontainers.org
[17:00:27] <NCommander> LXC isn't perfect, but it would make shit a bit more managable
[17:00:27] <xlefay> Good, cause OpenVZ makes me wanna cry.
[17:00:48] <mechanicjay> crap meeting, gotta run
[17:00:56] <xlefay> k tc mechanicjay :)
[17:00:56] mechanicjay is now known as mechanicjay|afk
[17:04:49] Cyprus is now known as Cyprus|afk
[17:05:32] <mrcoolbp> guys I got to get ready for work, BBL tonight
[17:06:03] <xlefay> I'm going to set up a virtual machine with that LXC crap later tonight
[17:06:12] mrcoolbp is now known as mrcoolbp|afk
[17:06:14] <xlefay> mechanicjay|afk: ping me if you want a snapshot after I get it up and running
[17:09:19] <xlefay> OK... after reading the short web page about LXC, I'm just going to say, LXC = Linux's version of FBSD's jails..
[17:09:35] <xlefay> Linux jails doesn't have quite the same ring to it, guess that's why they call it containers instead.
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[17:35:28] <mrcoolbp|afk> mechanicjay: email
[17:35:47] <mrcoolbp|afk> mechanicjay: email "reply" button doesn't populate the reply to address?
[17:36:11] <mrcoolbp|afk> oh, I'll just email him....
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[17:48:03] <NCommander> xlefay, we *could* migrate a box to *BSD for you :-)
[17:48:04] * NCommander ducks
[17:48:15] <xlefay> NCommander: not a bad idea actually ;-)
[17:48:32] <NCommander> xlefay, there's unofficial support on linode
[17:48:34] * xlefay honestly doesn't mind BSD.
[17:48:39] <NCommander> */is semi-serious on saying he'll do it*
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[17:48:54] <NCommander> I don't mind us having a variety of backend stuff, makes root exploits harder
[17:48:55] <xlefay> I would love to use FreeBSD but let's stick to something we know is supported.
[17:49:00] * NCommander looks
[17:49:41] <mattie_p> I haven't looked at MUD code in a while, but I"m pretty sure it runs on freebsd
[17:49:50] <mattie_p> =D
[17:49:54] <NCommander> xlefay, http://www.hungryhacker.com
[17:50:39] <xlefay> NCommander: interesting
[17:51:03] mrcoolbp is now known as drcoolbp
[17:51:24] <xlefay> NCommander: it does seem like a disaster waiting to happen
[17:51:55] <xlefay> I like bsd, but if it's not supported by default how about snapshots? Will that go well?
[17:52:01] drcoolbp is now known as Admiral_coolbp
[17:52:07] <NCommander> xlefay, snapshots?
[17:52:14] Admiral_coolbp is now known as mrcoolbp
[17:52:33] <xlefay> Linode makes backups/snapshots no?
[17:52:45] <xlefay> e.g. they make a snapshot of the VM so you can download it for home usage?
[17:52:57] <mattie_p> ok, so I gotta check backlog in this channel. Did I miss anything significant?
[17:53:28] <NCommander> mattie_p, clarification of stuff w/ matt
[17:53:40] <mattie_p> yeah, that's what I'm looking at
[17:55:07] <xlefay> NCommander: I'm guessing that's not possible then?
[17:55:30] <xlefay> but cloning is at the very least possible, I'm guessing?
[17:56:41] <NCommander> xlefay, eh, we should have a proper off-site backup solution in general :-)
[17:56:48] <xlefay> I agree :)
[17:57:10] <xlefay> I mention the snapshots, because if that's possible, one could take it, deploy it at home and try upgrades, etc... without being on production ;)
[17:57:21] <NCommander> xlefay, huh, I though they did, but seems not
[17:57:22] <xlefay> in a "very close to exact" environment
[17:58:12] <NCommander> xlefay, you can copy disks across notes, but you can't download them
[17:58:19] <xlefay> hmm that's unfortunate
[17:58:56] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: we started changing Overloard -> Team Leader, I hope that was your desire....
[17:59:14] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, I was going to use line officer, but that works
[17:59:15] <xlefay> mrcoolbp: s/Team Leader/chief/
[17:59:46] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: whatever works
[18:00:00] <xlefay> anyhow
[18:00:31] <xlefay> NCommander: if you really want a FreeBSD, I'd be happy to try a FBSD 10 install
[18:00:58] <mrcoolbp> okay I'm off for now. See you guys soon
[18:01:08] <NCommander> xlefay, er, honestly, its whatever you'd like
[18:01:16] * NCommander would just be happy stapling Ubuntu to everything
[18:01:31] <xlefay> I'm a stickler for standardization ;-)
[18:01:32] <NCommander> But there *is* value in not being a mono-culture
[18:01:48] * NCommander creates the dev node in the Dallas datacentre
[18:02:03] <NCommander> <3 dpkg --get-selections, then recloning it on a new box
[18:02:10] <xlefay> I realize there is, but there's more value in the same OS everywhere
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[18:02:19] <xlefay> e.g. every sysadmin would know how a box works, etc..
[18:02:33] <NCommander> paulej72, are we done with dev.soylentnews.org?
[18:02:35] <xlefay> In the general sense.
[18:02:37] <NCommander> (can I blow it away?)
[18:03:51] <xlefay> NCommander: you want me to experiment with the containers?
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[18:04:28] <NCommander> xlefay, well, at some point, I think we're going to have to rebuild svc, that poor box is running far too much crap
[18:04:53] <xlefay> SN services?
[18:04:55] <xlefay> The centOS?
[18:06:07] <NCommander> Yeah
[18:06:15] <NCommander> Basically if its not slash, its on SN Services
[18:06:38] <xlefay> Yeah, I understand. So let's drop the "SN" prefix ahead of schedule.
[18:06:56] <xlefay> At some point, we're (probably) going to get rid of the SN name, might as well stop using it for new boxes now
[18:07:46] <xlefay> Anyway, so, let's say Ubuntu with containers, one service per container?
[18:08:22] <NCommander> xlefay, yeah
[18:08:32] <xlefay> does the containers play nice with resources?
[18:08:37] <stderr> NCommander: I see your "dpkg --get-selections" and raise with a "debconf-get-selections".
[18:08:44] <NCommander> stderr, that's also sexy
[18:08:46] <xlefay> LOL
[18:08:48] <xlefay> !grab stderr
[18:08:48] <Bender> Added quote 53
[18:08:50] <xlefay> !grab NCommander
[18:08:50] <Bender> Added quote 54
[18:08:59] * NCommander notes he never found an equivelent for Red Hat/Fedora
[18:09:12] <NCommander> I think mail at some point should migrate to a dedicated host
[18:09:25] <NCommander> I'd like to offer all staff and subscribers mail + shell accounts
[18:09:37] <NCommander> (think SDF)
[18:09:38] <xlefay> Which would be nicely isolated with a container
[18:09:39] <stderr> Agree. And if we have 2 MX-records, they should point to different hosts...
[18:09:58] mechanicjay|afk is now known as mechanicjay
[18:10:15] <mechanicjay> NCommander: yes to everything you just said
[18:10:53] <xlefay> NCommander / mechanicjay: can one of you provide me with SSH to the svc box - so I can take a peak at the configs? This'll help set up a similar environment once the container stuff is workin'
[18:11:04] * NCommander isn't sure if he has SSH access
[18:11:08] <NCommander> We need to get LDAP setup soonish
[18:11:08] <NCommander> ugh
[18:11:29] <xlefay> LDAP would be nice.
[18:11:39] <stderr> xlefay: Damn it! stdhell didn't have voice in #irpg, so you didn't see the "ping?". :-( And there I was, hoping you would say "pong!"...
[18:11:41] <xlefay> mechanicjay: can you help me out on that one?
[18:11:56] <xlefay> LOL stderr... it's set to +mz... so only ops saw ya message
[18:12:26] <mechanicjay> yeah, I'
[18:12:33] <mechanicjay> ll you two setup in a few minutes.
[18:12:43] <stderr> xlefay: It would be easier to make people do something stupid, if everyone could talk in there. (Hint hint!)
[18:12:52] <xlefay> rofl
[18:13:09] <xlefay> done
[18:13:13] <NCommander> ugh
[18:13:17] * NCommander needs to focus on the job job
[18:14:11] <xlefay> NCommander: let me know when the other box is up. I'm going to sleep in a lil bit though, so I'll probably get on it afterwards. Can you just mail me? xlefay@soylentnews.org
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[18:15:21] <xlefay> ooh that reminds me
[18:15:37] * xlefay notes that imap is annoyingly slow.
[18:15:38] Cyprus|afk is now known as Cyprus
[18:16:38] <xlefay> Anyway, I mailed AHBL last night - requesting permissions to use their dnsbl's on IRC (e.g. anti proxies, not sure if we should allow tor just yet..) and they responded within minutes saying it's fine.
[18:16:49] <xlefay> (they requested they first be asked via e-mail before enabling them)
[18:18:16] <NCommander> AHBL?
[18:18:33] <xlefay> dnsbl ( http://ahbl.org )
[18:18:47] <xlefay> It's commonly used to protect against mass "proxy" flood attack
[18:19:12] <NCommander> Handy
[18:19:29] <xlefay> It's where some loads a huge proxy list into a program, and fires it at an IRC server, clients connect, if proxy exists in ahbl, or efnet's BL, *bam k-lined!*
[18:19:59] <NCommander> xlefay, huh, we should probably import that into slash's No AC Posts blocklist
[18:20:20] <xlefay> Yes, we could. We have to keep in mind that we cannot use arbitrary dnsbl's though.
[18:20:31] <xlefay> e.g. most anti spam dnsbl's block entire "dynamic IP ranges"
[18:20:35] <xlefay> s/most/some/
[18:20:55] <xlefay> That's why we're only using a few specialized IRC dnsbl's, but fairly sure we can find a few good sources for the website
[18:21:13] <xlefay> stopforumspam's DB would be useful, there are a couple of others we could use as well. I'll make a list.
[18:21:39] <xlefay> but.. we do have the whitelist ability, correct? (in case someone gets listed).
[18:22:14] <xlefay> Even better, could we have a "challenge" like cloudflare does? e.g. suspicious visitor, cloudflare provides them with a captcha, if they pass, they're allowed, otherwise they aren't.
[18:23:12] <NCommander> xlefay, we do have a whitelist ability
[18:23:21] <NCommander> We need to convert the whitelists into Slash's IPLD format
[18:23:27] <NCommander> blacklist too
[18:24:14] <xlefay> "IPLD" haven't heard of that yet. I wonder how hard it would be to implement such a "challenge" system at our scale (and still allow it to scale)
[18:24:33] <xlefay> If we had a load balancing set-up, would sessions get shared between servers?
[18:26:10] <NCommander> xlefay, slash doesn't store IP addresses
[18:26:11] <mechanicjay> xlefay: depends on how we do it. If session information is stored in the db, then sessions could float between nodes. If it's not, then you need session persistance on your load balancer, which is less cool, but still workabel
[18:26:13] <NCommander> It turns it into a funky IPLD
[18:26:42] <xlefay> hmm...
[18:27:26] <xlefay> Well I suppose, technically if we/I am able to implement such a system we _could_ whitelist the "IPLD" .... but, that could turn into madness, unless it's temporarily, sessions would be much nicer though.
[18:27:38] <xlefay> and with "I" I mean, me after I've read about a dozen perl books.
[18:28:42] <xlefay> Let me ask a better question, are there actual docs that can be of use in understanding Slash or is there only the code?
[18:29:16] <audioguy> Everything I could find is on the wiki
[18:29:35] <audioguy> The oly thing not there is the man pages, which are spotty at best
[18:30:26] <xlefay> audioguy: thanks, I'll look at that. I think such a challenge system would be useful, if we can combine the dnsbl's with the bandb, I'm curious if we can mark their origin, e.g. "ipdl-hash(?) -> dnsbl" in which case, in the banning section one could extend that based on the "marking/description" and provide a challenge
[18:30:59] <audioguy> http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[18:31:15] <xlefay> Woa...
[18:31:20] <xlefay> you are thorough aren't you?
[18:31:45] <audioguy> It is still very rough, will get better
[18:32:03] <xlefay> audioguy: Thank you a ton! | mechanicjay: can you mail me the login infos when you have them at xlefay@soylentnews.org?
[18:32:27] <audioguy> Some is just dumps of what is where, it is easier to scroll through a web page than jump all over the damn place in cli
[18:32:47] <NCommander> xlefay, there is a book about slash
[18:32:51] <NCommander> xlefay, its probably years out of date
[18:33:12] <xlefay> Yes, I'm aware of that book. Is that mostly about it's code though?
[18:33:23] <audioguy> Juyst don't expect the docs to be accurate, or up to date. ;-)
[18:33:50] <xlefay> I noticed there were inline docs in some/most files, I'm curious if we can generate those, "perldoc" or something?
[18:34:16] <xlefay> api docs*
[18:34:18] <audioguy> Yes, my problem is that I know very littel about perl. ;-)
[18:34:21] <NCommander> xlefay, I might just have to buy it
[18:34:29] <NCommander> xlefay, perldoc, they're actually installed as manpages
[18:34:38] <NCommander> If you add the right folder to the MANPATH, you can get them automatically
[18:35:06] <xlefay> I see. That's somewhat disappointing, I was hoping web based API docs.
[18:35:18] <NCommander> xlefay, ....
[18:35:21] <audioguy> There are 'man pages' for (some of) the modules, on slashcott you can type man Module::blah to get the perdoc.
[18:35:27] <mechanicjay> xlefay: check your email for account info
[18:35:27] <NCommander> xlefay, I do believe you can get perldoc to generate that
[18:35:56] <xlefay> NCommander: well you can get man pages online, they're just not so thorough as general API docs. I'm curious if I can figure that out ;-)
[18:35:56] <mechanicjay> NCommander: you have a login to the service box, sent email Friday afternoon with account info.
[18:36:06] <audioguy> What is actually in the files is minimal, there are a few good notes, and some stuff that is just flat wrong. Amusing to read some of them.
[18:36:13] <mechanicjay> NCommander: let me know if you need passwd reset or something
[18:36:16] <NCommander> mechanicjay, oh thanks
[18:36:19] * NCommander is still buried in email
[18:36:32] <xlefay> Thank you mechanicjay, imap is still loading though :/
[18:36:37] <xlefay> Is there a bottleneck somewhere?
[18:37:00] <xlefay> nvm...
[18:37:18] <mechanicjay> yeah, the box is starved for memory
[18:37:29] <xlefay> waiting for the mail to come true
[18:37:46] <xlefay> through*
[18:37:54] <mechanicjay> sent to xlefay@soylentnews.org
[18:38:03] <xlefay> yep, waiting on that account
[18:38:15] <xlefay> Figured it'd have arrived already
[18:38:29] <xlefay> Do we have greylisting?
[18:38:35] * NCommander dislikes greylisting
[18:38:42] <xlefay> Me too, but it works *well*
[18:38:57] <mechanicjay> bah
[18:39:07] <xlefay> and I don't generally argue with things that work well, unless that has changed recently?
[18:39:26] <mechanicjay> !todo stop local postfix delivery from trying use a AAAA record hence preventing local delivery
[18:39:26] <Bender> todo item 6 added
[18:39:39] <xlefay> LOL
[18:39:48] <xlefay> Is it deferring itself?
[18:40:27] <mechanicjay> just bounced hard
[18:40:50] <xlefay> postqueue iirc
[18:40:56] Cyprus is now known as Cyprus|harrassmenttraining
[18:42:07] <mechanicjay> just resent with personal account
[18:42:11] <xlefay> Got it now
[18:42:27] <xlefay> I assume everyone here has SSH keys?
[18:43:41] <mechanicjay> yeah, I think restricting password logins is on the "we should proabably do that list" somewhere
[18:44:36] <xlefay> When I set up "that" dev box, that'll be one of the first things to get done so just a heads up ;-)
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[18:45:51] <audioguy> Set it to password initially, with a cutoff date, to give us time to fix any problems. I have ssh keys, not sure others do
[18:46:49] <xlefay> That's a good option too. we'll do that for now. ;-)
[18:47:48] <NCommander> mechanicjay, just install IPv6 locally
[18:47:56] <NCommander> I'm a bit shocked that's not the default on CentOS
[18:48:05] <audioguy> I had to set up one person with Putty, coming in on a windows box, and keygen is slightly awkward on putty.
[18:48:08] <NCommander> mechanicjay, ifconfig lo inte6 ::1 should do the trick
[18:48:38] <xlefay> mechanicjay: I can also find my servers IPv6 settings in /etc/sysconfig/network*scripts/ if you like, to enable IPv6.
[18:48:50] <mechanicjay> ipv6 is running, and ::1 is localhost
[18:49:04] <xlefay> hmm
[18:49:08] <NCommander> are we getting bounces because SMTP's aren't listening to IPV6?
[18:49:23] <xlefay> trying to use a AAAA, which?
[18:49:43] <mechanicjay> the local delivery mechanism is hawking up a hairball
[18:49:58] <xlefay> aah, that's something in master.cnf
[18:50:08] <mechanicjay> yes
[18:50:17] <paulej72> NCommander: take a dump of the db on dev so we have a copy of the bug list for historical reasons, and then you can kill dev.soylentnews.org
[18:50:25] <NCommander> paulej72, that was the plan
[18:50:27] <NCommander> Awesome, tahnks
[18:50:36] <mechanicjay> xlefay: Mar 18 17:35:46 li50-41 postfix/smtp[4249]: A512041FB: to=<xlefay@soylentenews.org>, relay=none, delay=0.11, delays=0.01/0.02/0.09/0, dsn=5.4.4, status=bounced (Host or domain name not found. Name service error for name=soylentenews.org type=AAAA: Host not found)
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[18:51:01] <paulej72> NCommander: just make sure you don't take a dump on the db :)
[18:51:09] <xlefay> Why is it trying soylentnews.org and not mail.soylentnews.org?
[18:51:14] <mechanicjay> not sure why it's trying to default to ipv6 -- esp if there's no record
[18:51:26] <mechanicjay> because I probably have something configured wrong
[18:51:27] <xlefay> mechanicjay: that's the problem it's facing
[18:51:37] <xlefay> That box feels rather sluggish btw...
[18:51:40] <NCommander> mechanicjay, because everything had real IPv6
[18:51:43] <xlefay> just copied my ssh key and ssh'd in and man....
[18:51:50] <NCommander> mechanicjay, all our nodes have actual IPv6 functionality; you can reach ipv6.google.com
[18:52:15] <mechanicjay> hmm
[18:52:25] <xlefay> mechanicjay: you mentioned sudo functionality, it doesn't work?
[18:52:35] <mechanicjay> it should be fine
[18:52:40] <xlefay> "xlefay is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported."
[18:53:25] <mechanicjay> sudo should be via membership in the wheel group, of which you are infact a member
[18:54:01] <xlefay> works now
[18:54:20] <audioguy> Have to relogin, I found.
[18:54:33] <mechanicjay> indeed -- sorry, I forgot which box this was -- sudo acces *NOW* works via membership in wheel
[18:54:49] <xlefay> hehe, thank you.
[18:55:20] <mechanicjay> when robin initially config'ed this box, he set explicit sudo entries, forgot this wasn't the old linode services box.
[18:56:30] <paulej72> NCommander: if we are asking for access to boxes, I only have sudo access to web, I would like to have access to db, and svc. I also need full admin access to Slash production. right now I only have editor or slightly higher access.
[18:56:59] <NCommander> !todo give god bits to paulej72
[18:56:59] <Bender> todo item 10 added
[18:57:09] <paulej72> thanks
[18:57:31] <audioguy> Same here, for emergencies. And it is actually useful for certain coding situations to be able to look at the config actually running.
[18:58:18] <xlefay> mechanicjay: it may be an idea to use the variables in main.cf more?
[18:58:25] <xlefay> #myorigin = $mydomain
[18:58:27] <xlefay> myorigin = soylentnews.org
[18:58:28] <xlefay> e.g.
[18:58:38] <xlefay> $mydomain instead of 'soylentnews.org' will save us later a whole lot of editing?
[18:58:49] <NCommander> audioguy, eh, can't you look at the dev.* version vs. production
[18:58:53] <NCommander> I want to keep suadmin as limited as possible
[18:59:06] <mechanicjay> brb
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[19:00:02] <audioguy> We have limited staff, have already had four emergencies that required this. I also feel people in dev should generally had access, what are you afraid of?
[19:00:26] <audioguy> There are only a few of us.
[19:03:50] <NCommander> audioguy, fair enough
[19:04:00] -!- mechanicjay [mechanicjay!~jhowe@Soylent/Staff/Developer/mechanicjay] has joined #staff
[19:04:00] -!- mode/#staff [+v mechanicjay] by kobitch
[19:04:13] <audioguy> I promise I won't do random things. ;-)
[19:04:37] <xlefay> cowsay fortune >> /etc/motd ?
[19:04:38] <NCommander> audioguy, what's your slash username?
[19:04:48] <audioguy> AudioGuy
[19:05:46] <NCommander> paulej72, upgraded
[19:05:50] <NCommander> audioguy, enjoy your suadmin bits
[19:05:59] <audioguy> One other things is that maybe a few more of us should have admin access to slash, paulej72 had to put up a story the other day due to lack of editor coverage.
[19:06:14] <audioguy> Thank you, NC.
[19:06:15] <FunPika> While we're on the topic access, would it be possible for me to have access to the wiki's files so I could take care of the stuff at http://wiki.soylentnews.org (such as stderr's rename)?
[19:07:18] <NCommander> FunPika, ^- xlefay mechanicjay
[19:07:40] * NCommander needs to get slap/slurd/kerberos setup
[19:07:45] <NCommander> yay!
[19:08:02] * NCommander notes we can use kerborized rsh instead of SSH for security through obsecurity
[19:08:04] <xlefay> I could grant you access, but I haven't gotten a good look at the system yet. I would prefer if you can wait till mechanicjay's here to do that.
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[19:09:24] <audioguy> All of this needs to be recorded on the wiki. Any new addresses, whatever. I cretaed a section for System Administration under Development.
[19:09:50] <audioguy> (leaving out any security related stuff, of course)
[19:10:16] * xlefay wonders why clamd is executing a selfcheck every 10 minutes?
[19:10:28] <xlefay> Seems somewhat excessive?
[19:10:37] <audioguy> And who has what privileges, so that in an emergency, people can look up who might be able to fix something.
[19:10:50] <mechanicjay> xlefay: default setting
[19:11:04] <xlefay> mechanicjay: we should probably change that to ease the load on the machine
[19:11:11] <mechanicjay> makes sense
[19:11:14] <xlefay> a selfcheck could easily be planned, once a day?
[19:12:10] <audioguy> My personal believe, which is carried out in my business practice, is that things should be documanted well enough that if I got hit by a bus, another sysadmin could carry on fairly seamlessly.
[19:12:22] <NCommander> We need to get the LDAP up
[19:12:28] <NCommander> That's really becoming a dire priority
[19:12:38] <audioguy> I keep information on an internal, not public, wiki though.
[19:12:39] * NCommander is going to host the damn thin on the DB server once I purge out zford's setup
[19:12:49] <mechanicjay> selfcheck gets new virus defs -- so maybe a few times / day.
[19:13:05] <xlefay> mechanicjay: do new virusdefs really get updated that often?
[19:13:36] <xlefay> I think one a day is common, most of us use Linux ; others on Windows also have their own virus scanner (often); is more than one needed?
[19:13:41] <mechanicjay> uknown for clam - at the last job, we got new spam/virus defs from Proofpoint multiple times /day.
[19:13:42] <xlefay> once*
[19:13:59] <xlefay> Let's set it to twice a day then
[19:14:03] <xlefay> e.g. every 12 hours
[19:14:37] <mechanicjay> ok
[19:19:04] <xlefay> Self checking every 43200 seconds.
[19:19:35] <mechanicjay> xlefay: any thing you see to make the mail config better, please feel free. I got it to the basically working state, haven't had time to go through and make sure it makes sense yet.
[19:19:43] <xlefay> audioguy: where's that wiki?
[19:20:05] <audioguy> ?? What do you mean?
[19:20:17] <xlefay> mechanicjay: yeah I'd like to replace those references with variables wherever possible
[19:20:46] <xlefay> e.g. myorigin = $mydomain ; instead of myorigin = soylentnews.org, which will save us a lot of time later ;-)
[19:20:47] <mechanicjay> totally, go for it
[19:20:52] <mechanicjay> :)
[19:20:54] <xlefay> audioguy: you mentioned a private wiki for stuff?
[19:21:20] * NCommander has semi-indigestion
[19:21:31] <audioguy> Well, if it is private, what good would it be for you to know where it is?
[19:21:50] <mechanicjay> xlefay: http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[19:21:51] <xlefay> aah I thought it was one for the staff, to update stuff in
[19:22:15] <xlefay> Yeah, figured I'd have to put it there - but was interested to see about the "secrets of this system"
[19:22:20] * NCommander is having one of those days
[19:22:23] <audioguy> In businesses,I put them on the internal network.
[19:23:06] <audioguy> I also haveone at home, internal only, that has extensive notes about EVRYTHING, all programs I use, individual server setups, etc.
[19:23:29] <xlefay> That's pretty cool
[19:23:35] <xlefay> It's like your own wikibook eh?
[19:23:43] <audioguy> What I would LIKE to do here, is have a private wiki for dev. But I would not use mediawiki.
[19:23:55] <mechanicjay> audioguy: I've been meaning to that as well. My wife is afraid if I get hit by a bus, she won't be able to keep the house infrastructure running. :)
[19:24:08] <audioguy> Yeah, it has literally hundreds of pages.
[19:24:09] <xlefay> I would personally prefer something like redmine ...
[19:24:13] <FunPika> What's wrong with MediaWiki for that?
[19:24:22] <xlefay> it includes wiki's, etc.. (per project), it's just easier that way.
[19:24:27] <NCommander> I really like mediawiki personally
[19:24:32] <xlefay> audioguy: woa, that's really neat!
[19:24:39] <audioguy> I use Twiki, because it has features just made to order for sysadmin type stuff, and for hacking around.
[19:25:24] <xlefay> This machine is really slugging around isn't it?
[19:25:36] <audioguy> IT has 'webs', subwikis. So I have 'webs' for my house, my computer stuff, web design stuff, and various projects (like thisone) I work on.
[19:25:51] <xlefay> and all we're running is a mail server on it and a webserver?
[19:26:24] <mechanicjay> xlefay: I don't find it too bad
[19:26:34] <mechanicjay> yes, mail and web
[19:27:32] <xlefay> it's just a bit sluggish. I wonder if we were to replace it with nginx or lighttpd if things would speed up substantially? As a bonus, lighttpd has some neat "vhost" stuff which would make life easier. | Have you & robin considered such an approach?
[19:27:41] <xlefay> (just inquiring, not suggest we actually change it!)
[19:27:54] <audioguy> FunPika: Mediawiki was actually designed for a very specific purpose, which it does well. But it lacks some trditional wiki features, and hides others that are very useful
[19:28:13] * NCommander likes lighty :-)
[19:28:34] <FunPika> audioguy: What traditional wiki features are you thinking about exactly?
[19:28:49] <xlefay> I generally use either Apache or nginx, or both... :) but I have used Lighty in the past, and I do recall it having pretty net vhost modules.
[19:29:14] <xlefay> s/net/neat/
[19:29:47] * xlefay notes he wishes sedbot was here.. but that would probably be to noisy. ;-((
[19:29:48] <mechanicjay> xlefay: not really -- this has been a chuck-it-together as fast as possible box from the get go. Actually, could tune apache waaay down to use less memory given the actual webserver load
[19:29:58] <audioguy> Twiki gives you diff at the bottom of every page, uses traditional plain text wiki page storage, whcih makes hacking arounf with it very easy, and has better implementations of some of the things mediawiki does, like tables.
[19:30:13] <mechanicjay> Currently has a ton a idle servers sucking up memory
[19:31:12] <audioguy> It's hard to explain in a line or two, you have to work with both to see.
[19:32:47] <xlefay> mechanicjay: I'm going to smoke a cig and then leave for bed, I'll take a look at the mail config when I return. We're currently using Apache 2.2, I'm fairly certainly lighttpd for instance would be way faster and less config work (once we've got PHP running next to it, for the wiki and such); would it be worth considering this as an alternative?
[19:32:52] <audioguy> FunPika: Here is an example - Here, I have been collecting docs. Some of those are in man pages. On twiki, because it is plain text pages, I could put those up just by using 'man2html PAGE >
[19:32:59] <audioguy> page.txt
[19:33:09] <audioguy> and it would bbe up on the wiki.
[19:33:19] <mechanicjay> also needs to support mailman lists in python and postfix admin
[19:33:36] <audioguy> On Mediawiki, I have to paste those in one by one, or do something more complicated with a database.
[19:33:39] <NCommander> argh
[19:33:40] <xlefay> Good point. Postfix admin is still PHP, correct?
[19:33:43] <NCommander> xlefay, YOU HAD TO SAY CIG
[19:33:47] <mechanicjay> yes
[19:33:50] * NCommander hasn't had one in 72 hours and was doing ok
[19:34:14] <xlefay> mechanicjay: well, when NCommander sets up the dev box for me, we could try lighttpd there with the current stuff on the svc box?
[19:34:27] <NCommander> xlefay, Slash only works with Apache
[19:34:30] <xlefay> So far as I understand it, it's just the plain files + a database connection to another server?
[19:34:40] <xlefay> NCommander: I'm talking about the wiki and such, e.g. the services
[19:34:49] <NCommander> xlefay, ah
[19:34:58] * NCommander is going to get LDAP setup sometime today
[19:35:06] <mechanicjay> xlefay: be my guest!
[19:35:08] <xlefay> I just want to get some metrics, regarding memory usage, etc.
[19:35:17] <NCommander> mattie_p, if you were serious on setting up a MUD, we can get a games box setup
[19:35:32] <mattie_p> semiserious
[19:35:36] <xlefay> mechanicjay: If you could tune the apache down as much as you can, we can run some Apache Benchmarks on both servers (wouldn't be entirely fair, but we'd get a good estimate)
[19:35:38] <FunPika> okay well...I think MediaWiki still works well for the public wiki at least
[19:35:55] <mattie_p> it is retro and right in line with our community
[19:36:02] <NCommander> mattie_p, well, I won't mind a nethack server, and there's some need for a unnethack server US based
[19:36:08] <xlefay> mechanicjay: just to be sure, I'm not stepping on your hard work tho, eh?
[19:36:10] <NCommander> Might be able to pull some of that crowd in
[19:36:52] <mechanicjay> xlefay: As we're all volunteers here with limited time, it's important not to get too territorial about anything.
[19:36:54] <mattie_p> plus it would allow me to code without being forced into perl, which I've never used
[19:37:03] <mechanicjay> xlefay: If you can improve on something, go for it.
[19:37:17] <xlefay> mechanicjay: just checking, since you've worked quite hard to move everything, don't want to step on your toes giving things a shot.
[19:37:43] <NCommander> mechanicjay, thoughts if LDAP should be on SVC or on the database?
[19:37:46] <mechanicjay> xlefay: not worries, happy for the 2nd set of eyes and another brain on it.
[19:37:53] * NCommander notes database is our critical services box, might be a good idea to have it there
[19:37:56] <mechanicjay> given how loaded svc is, DB might be a better idea
[19:37:58] <audioguy> xlefay Apache is very flexible though.
[19:38:20] <xlefay> audioguy: I know, that's why I want to compare it a bit, performance wise, etc.
[19:38:21] <mechanicjay> also, what is LDAP, but a database?
[19:38:49] <xlefay> Generally, all the service box needs to serve is mailman, and some php scripts/packages at this point.
[19:39:04] <NCommander> mechanicjay, point taken
[19:39:52] <xlefay> If mechanicjay can get Apache's footprint down, and we benchmark the two, apache & lighty (which wouldn't be entirely fair since Apache is already under load by regular visits), we'd get a clear indication ;)
[19:40:11] <audioguy> If the plan is to have user accounts on this machine, with web spaces, which I want dearly, I would prefer apache because I know it can do somethings I would want to do.
[19:40:23] -!- robinld [robinld!~robind@Soylent/Staff/Sysop/robind] has joined #staff
[19:40:23] -!- mode/#staff [+v robinld] by kobitch
[19:40:31] <xlefay> Is there going to be webspaces for staff on the services machine?
[19:40:50] <xlefay> I suppose mod_userdir would come in handy
[19:41:28] <audioguy> Then I would not have to do this: http://remote.demmers.org
[19:41:30] <mechanicjay> xlefay: audioguy: I'd want separate boxes for stuff at some point. A user login box with personal sites should be it's own thing.
[19:41:44] <xlefay> I agree, it should be.
[19:41:54] <xlefay> By the way, are we going for A 2.2 or 2.4?
[19:41:58] <audioguy> It would be useful to me NOW, actually
[19:42:15] <xlefay> A 2.4 is insanely fast compared to 2.2 (least, last I heard...)
[19:42:30] <mechanicjay> I've heard the same, not played with 2.4 -- the centos system package is 2.2
[19:42:48] <xlefay> My CentOS system has 2.4 but that's probably because I fiddled with cPanel's easy apache.
[19:42:54] <audioguy> 2.2 would be closer to what the main site must run, after NC gets the changes needed to modperl done.
[19:43:30] -!- rdavis has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[19:43:56] <mechanicjay> okay, got apache tuned down, no longer keeping 20+ spare server threads running, also turned On keepalives. Currently hundreds of meg of memory free -- which is an improvement -- we'll see how memory usage grows over the next few hours.
[19:43:57] <NCommander> We've got mod_perl for Apache 2.4
[19:43:58] <stderr> My vote is on Apache 2.2... Cause that's what in Debian stable...
[19:43:59] <NCommander> yay Debian
[19:44:17] <audioguy> Sounds good to me.
[19:44:22] <FunPika> Apache 2.2 is also what is in the current Ubuntu LTS (12.04)
[19:44:37] <xlefay> 2.2 is nice.. but if you can get twice or more the performance running a stable 2.4? :)
[19:44:56] <xlefay> Seems one has to call a Canonical developer to get some debs in Ubuntu's repos :P (a)
[19:45:04] <audioguy> This is littel stuff for staff use, hardly seems a worry.
[19:45:57] <xlefay> The main thing I like about lighty, is that a vhost is just one dir away ;-)
[19:46:59] <mechanicjay> clamd is a pig, isn't it?
[19:47:02] <xlefay> OK NOTE TO SELF:
[19:47:12] <audioguy> Sounds fun. Not sure we actually NEED that for this, though.
[19:47:14] <xlefay> An electric cigaret isn't going to light a non electric one.
[19:47:28] <stderr> xlefay: You're holding it wrong.
[19:47:40] <xlefay> Woa.. clamd is using a lot yea
[19:47:43] <xlefay> rofl stderr
[19:48:26] <xlefay> audioguy: I'm just thinking about comparing Apache & lighttpd for the needs we need at the service box and the long term maintenance.
[19:48:43] * NCommander is debating what to use for the LDAP DC
[19:48:51] <NCommander> dc=soylent,dc=local?
[19:49:01] <xlefay> One directory vs. a vhost file, does make a big difference in maintainance, but will cost flexibility etc.. that's why I want to do a compare and such, to see what and let y'all know
[19:49:05] <xlefay> NCommander: don't soylent please :[
[19:49:28] <xlefay> Call it teamawesomenauts or something
[19:49:29] <audioguy> I'd guess a lot more people familiar with Apache than lighthttpd
[19:49:30] <mechanicjay> dc=noname,dc=org
[19:49:33] <stderr> NCommander: No soylent, if you can avoid it.
[19:50:00] <xlefay> audioguy: that's true, another thing to take into consideration ;)
[19:50:13] <NCommander> mechanicjay, noname?
[19:50:23] <NCommander> eh
[19:50:23] <NCommander> fuck it
[19:50:27] <audioguy> Maybe even editors and such will have uses for web pages of their own.
[19:50:28] <stderr> audioguy / xlefay: We could use blackfoot...
[19:50:29] * NCommander just uses li64 whatever
[19:50:45] <xlefay> Hey that's cool, li64 will be an inside joke
[19:50:58] <xlefay> in about 10 years them new kids will be on our block wondering WTF 'li64' means
[19:51:15] <mechanicjay> NCommander: noname, you know since we dont' have a name? eh?
[19:51:17] <xlefay> haha stderr, we could've
[19:51:30] * mechanicjay understand that was not a good joke.
[19:51:49] <stderr> xlefay: It does support vhost... Or CGI-scripts... or anything else fancy...
[19:51:50] <xlefay> mechanicjay: happens to me about 100 times a day, just let it slide off ;-)
[19:52:02] <stderr> But on the plus side... I wrote it. :-)
[19:52:06] <audioguy> does or doesn't?
[19:52:12] <xlefay> which are we talking about now?
[19:52:17] <xlefay> wait
[19:52:17] <stderr> s/does/doesn't/
[19:52:23] <xlefay> blackfoot wasn't a name suggestion?
[19:52:23] <audioguy> beats me ;-)
[19:52:34] <xlefay> it's an actual application?
[19:52:35] Cyprus|harrassmenttraining is now known as Cyprus
[19:53:05] <stderr> xlefay: It's a webserver.
[19:53:25] <xlefay> stderr / audioguy / mechanicjay: however: lighttpd <-> apache <-> blackfoot <-> nginx then? :)
[19:53:28] <xlefay> To compromise :p
[19:53:42] <audioguy> Just run them all.
[19:53:45] <xlefay> ^
[19:54:00] <audioguy> I want
[19:54:00] <stderr> Written by me for some stupid course where everyone else used Java and didn't actually do any coding themselves...
[19:54:13] <audioguy> Apache on port 80 though ;-)
[19:54:24] <xlefay> haha
[19:54:25] <stderr> audioguy: No, no... Varnish on port 80....
[19:54:25] <mechanicjay> Lets just run WASD on some VMS boxes.
[19:54:34] <xlefay> stderr: dat sucks
[19:54:47] <xlefay> Hey.... let's be fair now, let's include IIS while we're at it
[19:54:49] <audioguy> Wite our own as a shell script.
[19:54:59] <xlefay> We'll just have a DNSBL and everyone listed gets send to the IIS as punishment!
[19:55:05] <FoobarBazbot_> awk is better
[19:55:08] * NCommander stabs xlefay
[19:55:11] <NCommander> !todo
[19:55:11] <Bender> todo for ncommander: 1) make sure install-slashsite installs proper schema 2) quit smoking 3) look at rewiring pollbooth for SERIOUS votes 4) write up YAFAP for nethack 5) write quick "what we're doing email" to staff-list 6) find volunteer who may be willing to work on mod_perl rework effort 7) discuss staff meeting on staff mailing list 8) poof development server into - 1 more
[19:55:29] <NCommander> Well, the AArch64 boxes are work are down
[19:55:29] <mechanicjay> had a guy a couple years ago, hanging a web redirect script of a xinetd service
[19:55:32] <xlefay> NCommander: that hurt maaan
[19:55:33] * NCommander has unexpected free time
[19:55:37] <audioguy> I have a wiki written in awk
[19:55:42] <xlefay> eh what?
[19:55:50] <xlefay> xinetd service?
[19:56:09] <xlefay> well least he was being efficient somewhat...
[19:56:39] <xlefay> mechanicjay: so what happened to him?
[19:56:55] <mechanicjay> it worked great under solaris, he couldn't get it to work under the new RHEL vm.
[19:57:16] <xlefay> lol
[19:57:17] <mechanicjay> xlefay: he's still working at the place I left a year and 1/2 ago
[19:57:36] <stderr> ... redirecting requests by hand.
[19:57:45] <xlefay> It does seem somewhat silly to hang a redirect after a xinetd script... any justification for doing so?
[19:58:43] <xlefay> err, script is misplaced. but ya get the question
[19:58:56] <mechanicjay> ....let me think for a minute...
[19:59:16] <xlefay> I think for one, it'd have saved some resources?
[19:59:59] <mechanicjay> This was some box, that held the ip address for organization.tld. The script hung on port80 and just echo'ed back 304 redirect to www.organization.tld. I think this was actually a mailserver, and he didn't want to run a webserver on it.
[20:00:38] <xlefay> That seems like an odd setup
[20:00:56] <FunPika> mechanicjay: I mentioned it earlier, but could I have access to the wiki's files when you get a chance?
[20:00:58] <audioguy> Makes sense. Trivil task, trivial program.
[20:01:01] <mechanicjay> historical accidents that persist
[20:01:18] <mechanicjay> FunPika: sorry missed that -- will do soon.
[20:01:21] <mechanicjay> be back soon.
[20:01:30] -!- mechanicjay has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
[20:01:39] <xlefay> audioguy: true but the setup itself looks somewhat silly.
[20:01:45] <xlefay> I'll give the guy credits for being creative tho ;-)
[20:02:07] <stderr> But you could avoid making MX-records... :-)
[20:02:08] <audioguy> Putting it under inetd is a bit weird.
[20:02:24] <xlefay> stderr: rofl
[20:02:29] <stderr> Just fall back to the A record for organization.tld and you got the mail-server.
[20:03:07] <NCommander> Solaris is "fun"
[20:03:18] <NCommander> We should move everything to Joylent and use ZFS for awesomeness :-)
[20:03:20] * NCommander ducks
[20:03:41] <stderr> ... So who's with me in replacing NCommander? :-)
[20:03:46] <xlefay> I'm seriously going to whack you for making fun of everything non ubuntu :P
[20:03:52] <xlefay> !grab stderr
[20:03:52] <Bender> Added quote 55
[20:04:05] <NCommander> xlefay, er, I like Debian
[20:04:11] <NCommander> Its mostly sane.
[20:04:12] <xlefay> [03/18/14 20:03:56] <Cyprus> zfs: for when you care about data more than performance, portability, or your sanity
[20:04:16] <xlefay> .voice Cyprus
[20:04:16] -!- mode/#staff [+v Cyprus] by kobitch
[20:04:20] <xlefay> NCommander: :P
[20:04:40] <NCommander> Cyprus, I thought that was btrfs
[20:04:41] * NCommander ducks
[20:04:42] <xlefay> .flags Cyprus +v
[20:04:42] -ChanServ:#staff- xlefay set flags +v on Cyprus.
[20:04:51] * xlefay notes he may or may not be using brtfs...
[20:04:54] <Cyprus> btrfs so far hasn't proven you care about data
[20:04:56] <stderr> NCommander: It's not an XOR...
[20:05:06] <xlefay> Cyprus: btw, now you can /cs voice #staff in the future
[20:05:08] * NCommander still remembers when ext4 had issues blanking files
[20:05:14] * Cyprus note all you need for voice is to harass zfs
[20:05:20] <NCommander> er
[20:05:27] <NCommander> what happened to only staff having voice here
[20:05:47] * stderr still remember when reiserfs decided to swap the content of two files...
[20:06:13] <xlefay> NCommander: some people often contribute in here, e.g. prospectacle, makes sense they can get autovoice/voice themselves it ehy have something valuable to contribute
[20:06:16] <stderr> Probably more than two files... I gave up when /etc/inittab suddenly was a binary...
[20:06:33] <xlefay> when they*
[20:06:48] <xlefay> (especially, when people forget to .op themselves)
[20:07:00] <xlefay> I can rever it though if you prefer, your call
[20:07:03] <xlefay> s/rever/revert/*
[20:08:05] <xlefay> My typing degrades the more tired I get ;)
[20:08:09] <NCommander> nah its fine
[20:08:18] <NCommander> Lets just buy UnixWare, VOS and NonStop licenses!
[20:08:34] <xlefay> You're right though, I should have asked the staff first, didn't think it was big deal though ;)
[20:09:15] <audioguy> I know we can make YET
[20:09:33] <audioguy> ANOTHER channel where this never happens. ;-)
[20:09:58] <xlefay> lol
[20:10:07] <xlefay> If you're really that inclined :P
[20:10:39] <audioguy> staf, staffsome, staff only, staffjustme
[20:11:24] <xlefay> /dev/mapper/luks-0d4dd071-eb49-400c-b483-f9e01210f68e on /home type btrfs (rw,relatime,seclabel,ssd,space_cache)
[20:11:29] <xlefay> brtfs really that evil?
[20:11:36] <xlefay> Its been running like a charm for a while now.
[20:12:02] <Cyprus> evil implies malice. btrfs is more like the mad hatter. It's probably fine, just dont ask him about special dates
[20:12:29] <xlefay> hmmm...
[20:12:45] <xlefay> I'll try to avoid that inquiry, but what if I happen to strawl by it, what'll happen?
[20:13:01] <xlefay> !grab Cyprus
[20:13:01] <Bender> Added quote 56
[20:13:05] <xlefay> FoobarBazbot: wrong client
[20:13:18] <FoobarBazbot_> yeah, i saw
[20:13:21] <xlefay> :p
[20:14:47] <NCommander> Cyprus, you sound like a disgusted Ted T'so :-P
[20:14:50] -!- MrBluze|zzz [MrBluze|zzz!~daniel@Soylent/Staff/IRC/MrBluze] has joined #staff
[20:14:50] -!- mode/#staff [+v MrBluze|zzz] by kobitch
[20:15:22] <Cyprus> joking aside, i think it's mostly safe now. I just fear using it for anything production as opposed to zfs, which should be safe, if a bit slow and the memory version of cookiemonster
[20:16:35] <xlefay> I see, hmm.
[20:16:43] <xlefay> FunPika:
[20:16:46] <NCommander> Cyprus, ZFS's memory can be reduced
[20:16:49] <Cyprus> and i just had to google Ted T'so
[20:16:58] <xlefay> wait for it...
[20:17:07] <NCommander> er, disguised, not disgusted
[20:17:11] * NCommander is still jetlagged
[20:17:22] -!- mechanicjay [mechanicjay!~jhowe@Soylent/Staff/Developer/mechanicjay] has joined #staff
[20:17:22] -!- mode/#staff [+v mechanicjay] by kobitch
[20:17:26] <xlefay> wb! :)
[20:17:37] <Cyprus> taking it as a compliment regardless, i wish i was confused for smart asian programmers more often
[20:17:50] <xlefay> !grab Cyprus
[20:17:51] <Bender> Added quote 57
[20:18:09] <stderr> For once I think I'll make dinner before midnight... Wish me luck...
[20:18:20] <xlefay> stderr: good luck! don't forget the bacon.
[20:18:43] <stderr> I'm making burgers. Of course I won't forget the bacon...
[20:18:47] <stderr> Silly xlefay...
[20:19:09] <xlefay> =)
[20:19:30] <xlefay> bbs
[20:19:45] <xlefay> try not to break anything down peeps ;-)
[20:19:49] <NCommander> You know, this might be blasphomey, but there are other things beside bacon
[20:20:03] <xlefay> (e.g. no throwing the *BSD cd's around!)
[20:20:05] <xlefay> :o
[20:20:23] <xlefay> NCommander: for your sake, I hope, you'll never let kobach here you say that :p
[20:20:32] <xlefay> hear*
[20:20:41] <mattie_p> I'm making some bacon right now for lunch + dinner
[20:21:09] * NCommander want to sleep, but has to be a responsible PM for this project
[20:21:32] <xlefay> anyways kidding aside, I'll be back soon.
[20:21:43] <xlefay> Go sleep NCommander, the others can hold down the fort
[20:22:02] <NCommander> xlefay, well, I also have day job crap to do
[20:22:32] <xlefay> aah yes. Well as long as you realize, an exhausted PM is no good to anyone, so get some rest when you can ;-)
[20:22:42] <xlefay> Take care all and bbs! :)
[20:25:48] <mechanicjay> see ya xlefay!
[20:40:08] MrBluze|zzz is now known as MrBluze
[20:44:01] <janrinok> MrBluze: how are you today?
[20:44:16] <MrBluze> hey janrinok
[20:44:18] <MrBluze> im ok
[20:44:22] <MrBluze> how r u ??
[20:44:25] <janrinok> good, same here
[20:44:52] <janrinok> running just to stand still on the editorial front but we're coping.
[20:47:03] <MrBluze> ah yes
[20:47:16] <MrBluze> i was gonna say, if u need i can edit maybe 2 articles a day
[20:47:25] <MrBluze> its not much but not nothing
[20:48:17] * NCommander really hates jetlag
[20:48:36] * MrBluze nods
[20:48:49] <MrBluze> morning exercise, well timed coffee is all i know about that
[20:48:57] <NCommander> you know what
[20:48:58] <NCommander> fuck it
[20:49:03] * NCommander is going to do something to relax
[20:49:16] <MrBluze> omg u cant be serious
[20:49:57] <NCommander> ?
[20:50:38] <mechanicjay> NCommander: Where abouts in NY are you...or do you have easy access to NYC?
[20:51:11] <mattie_p> speaking of which, I'll be there in about 4 weeks, we should do a meetup or something
[20:51:20] <NCommander> mechanicjay, upper east side
[20:51:23] <mechanicjay> mattie_p: you're reading my mind
[20:51:56] <mattie_p> I have a cousins wedding to go to, but we can start catching up on the drinks we all owe each other
[20:52:00] <mechanicjay> But make it an official SN NYC meetup event, open to the whole community.
[20:52:04] <NCommander> Sure
[20:52:12] <mechanicjay> mayeb, as a marketing ployt
[20:52:15] <NCommander> mechanicjay, where are you based in meatspace
[20:52:19] <mechanicjay> North Jersey
[20:52:34] <NCommander> mechanicjay, eh, I can just take NJ Transit to darken your day :-)
[20:52:39] * NCommander is going out for awhile
[20:52:47] <mattie_p> ohh, you taking the PATH? horror of horrors
[20:52:57] * NCommander likes the PATH
[20:53:02] * NCommander likes trains in general
[20:53:06] <NCommander> Anyway, chow
[20:53:12] <mattie_p> LIRR for me, team
[20:53:20] <mattie_p> well, it was while I lived there
[20:53:30] <mattie_p> later, NCommander
[20:53:43] <mechanicjay> laters
[21:25:21] -!- MrBluze has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[21:50:46] <paulej72> here is a good article that was passed to me by weeds: http://www.paulgraham.com
[22:00:15] -!- janrinok has quit [Quit: leaving]
[22:14:14] <mattie_p> saw him post, I'll have to look at it
[22:20:30] <stderr> "February 2009"
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[23:18:10] <NCommander> ugh
[23:21:18] <paulej72> uga uga uga
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