#soylent | Logs for 2024-05-21

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[00:00:47] <kolie> https://github.com
[00:00:47] <systemd-oomd> ^ 03Issues · SoylentNews/rehash
[00:04:01] <AlwaysNever> what different backend? non-Perl based?
[00:04:08] <kolie> Yes not perl.
[00:04:19] <AlwaysNever> so what is it based on?
[00:04:32] <kolie> I've looked at it in a few different languages.
[00:05:23] <kolie> PHP, Python, JS/TS, Rust, and C#
[00:06:23] <kolie> Theres a lot in the backend for admins/staff and processes that aren't immediately obvious to a user of the site.
[00:07:12] <kolie> And the other systems that ties into, theres a lot of stuff that would make it easier to run SN, with less effort, which would increase staff happiness
[00:07:35] <kolie> Certainly lowering the bar for participation.
[00:07:43] <AlwaysNever> You had a non-Perl backend capable of rendering a dynamic, pixel identical SN front page? Hmm...
[00:08:01] <kolie> Yea, I went and looked at the templates in perl
[00:08:11] <kolie> And basically converted them to modern templating systems.
[00:08:21] <kolie> And then threw in mock data where appropriate.
[00:09:02] <kolie> I started to write up feature lists for each rendered page too but didn't get that far into the process.
[00:09:39] <kolie> I ended up down a rabbit hole in the karma system and then later the staff backend.
[00:10:27] <AlwaysNever> I don't understand how the consensus is the rehash-Perl is so cumbersome, but then it's so easy to grasp it and rewrite it into other languages
[00:11:06] <kolie> I can tell you what the code does line by line, I can't write/structure/test it competently, or make a change in one area and know what the effect will be globally, nor does anyone else.
[00:11:21] <kolie> It's not well written, people that know perl don't like the task of touching it at all.
[00:11:56] <kolie> And we haven't been able to find anyone willing to do so, it's a one bus problem even if we did.
[00:12:58] <AlwaysNever> but then, the Rehash page at Github boast its adherence to the MVC paradigm
[00:13:04] <kolie> lol.
[00:13:05] <AlwaysNever> https://github.com
[00:13:06] <systemd-oomd> ^ 03GitHub - SoylentNews/rehash: Forked from Slashcode, rehash is the codebase that powers SoylentNews.org, powered by mod_perl 2
[00:13:47] <kolie> rehash is how you did mvc in 1990 when we were still figuring this out, and if perl programmers were abundant, then maybe we can carry on.
[00:14:03] <kolie> As perl programmers are essentially hens teeth these days.
[00:14:32] <kolie> For the longevity of the site and community, it would seem possible that changing rehash in some way to embrace those points, may be beneificial.
[00:15:03] <kolie> And could likely be done with 100% end user acceptance by the community if things like the front end were essentially, identical.
[00:15:55] <AlwaysNever> There are plenty of modern sites in the Internet, but people who remain in SN probably do it becauase it's old school
[00:16:08] <AlwaysNever> in the SN universe, old school is an asset
[00:16:34] <AlwaysNever> SN could totally kill its star if it loses the old school factor
[00:17:05] <kolie> Preaching to the choir on that one.
[00:18:30] <AlwaysNever> anyway, I will hope for the best
[00:19:12] <AlwaysNever> the rewrite from Netscape to Firefox was a nightmare, took so long, so much more effort than initially expected
[00:19:30] <AlwaysNever> those who were there, remember it
[00:19:54] <kolie> I know the #2 on that project, we had wine over those conversations in those days.
[00:20:35] <AlwaysNever> so you know the easy planned rewrite can be very hard at the end of the day
[00:21:24] <kolie> My day job is digital archaeology, maintaining old forgotten systems no one speaks anymore, and also reimplementing them in certain cases.
[00:21:32] <kolie> I'm uniquely situation to appreciate that task, yes.
[00:21:57] <kolie> Which is why I wanted to go feature by feature in the perl code to fully understand the scope.
[00:22:23] <kolie> This wasn't some hand waving, the perl sucks, I can do this, I've looked into it pretty deep and had some time to dig around and feel out the scope of it.
[00:23:07] <AlwaysNever> ok, as I say, I will hope for the best; it would be much easier to stabilize what-is, to make it buildable-from-scratch, and just keep going - but it there is people willing to invest TONS of time and effort in another apporach, so be it
[00:23:09] <kolie> And given the tasks, headaches, and future ahead I've heard from staff from the beginning, it would seem you could get a lot to gain, if the fud of, its not perl is the only concern.
[00:23:18] <kolie> That can be concurrent efforts.
[00:23:55] <kolie> Because the infra is one thing, the community is one thing, the legal/operations is on thing, and what software the main website uses is one thing.
[00:24:11] <kolie> So stabilizng what is, yea seems like efforts being made there.
[00:24:20] <kolie> The legal/operations, efforts being made there.
[00:25:13] <kolie> And hopefully the efforts in those areas, and maybe even the software stack, that grows the community and encourages more activity in the form of posts, or staff participation.
[00:26:46] <kolie> Theres a good portion of the SN community that has dried up over 10 years, nothing exactly new about that, other then recently its been more of the same.
[00:27:09] <kolie> Maybe even scoop up some of those people, and other soylent-minded out there.
[00:27:46] <AlwaysNever> all web forums are drying up, there is much competition for people's attention by Youtube, FaceBook, Reddit, etc.
[00:28:34] <kolie> I don't think SN was ever attempting to capture the likes and attention that drives a reddit or youtube.
[00:28:38] <AlwaysNever> and Twitter, ii is a black hole for people's time
[00:29:04] <AlwaysNever> reddit has subforums which are very technical
[00:29:19] <kolie> Yea I participate in a few.
[00:29:35] <kolie> NSFWGooDumpsters is a personal favorite.
[00:30:26] <AlwaysNever> I guess I liked the idea of SN being the last remaining javascript-free, Perl-powered, web site of the Internet...
[00:30:39] <kolie> There's plenty of perl power.
[00:30:49] <kolie> I mean if someone who knows perl wants to fix it, by all means.
[00:31:17] <AlwaysNever> "fix it", but it is feature complete
[00:31:53] <kolie> You say that from an end user perspective.
[00:32:00] <kolie> And I say it from an operations / maintenance perspective.
[00:33:34] <kolie> I mean if its an age thing, write it in C++, lol it predates perl.
[00:34:00] <kolie> I will not be participating in that rewrite lol, once its done I could maintain it though.
[00:35:03] <kolie> crusty as fuck apis, the OGs of the world, I think they were all C mostly C based interfaces in the web 1.0 days.
[00:35:25] <kolie> CGI so fun.
[00:35:52] <AlwaysNever> we'll see... there is a worry that there will be no manpower to keep the Perl going, but there is hope that there will be manpower enought the totally rewrite and replace the backend - we'll see
[00:36:23] <AlwaysNever> *to totally rewrite and replace
[00:36:40] <kolie> Well, if there was interest, I'd volunteer to do a rewrite for sure.
[00:37:47] <kolie> Perl seems to be a gatekeeper for the tech stack in the community and not in a positive way.
[00:38:03] <kolie> There is a ton of neat ideas in the rehash codebase.
[00:38:15] <kolie> A lot of it isn't used or turned off too.
[00:38:25] <kolie> The karma system is gimped from what it originally was.
[00:38:50] <kolie> nexus's
[00:39:56] <kolie> integrating community votes into the site seemed pretty cool given the ideas and diverseness of the community.
[00:40:39] <AlwaysNever> I just like it as the end-user currently sees it - also, I don't like change, in fact, I hate change
[00:41:03] <kolie> I think it's pretty perfect on the front end.
[00:41:37] <kolie> All the former perl maintainers and sys admins I've spoke with are pretty inline with that sentiment too.
[00:42:14] <kolie> I think that's why SN split was after the changes from /. being shite and unnecessary.
[00:42:27] <kolie> It was worse than shite.
[00:43:15] <AlwaysNever> and that experience I think left a scar in many old /. users who came to SN
[00:43:24] <AlwaysNever> we don't want no change
[00:44:05] <AlwaysNever> SN is like UNIX, it is fine as originally devised
[00:45:55] <kolie> It was devised with a younger community, with greater participation, and on different technology then we have now. You can keep the same. The worlds changed around it.
[00:46:18] <kolie> So the goal would be maintain the sameness, while improving the pain points.
[00:46:51] <kolie> Idk I'd love to find a pool of perl devs somewhere that would be interested in fixing the rehash issues.
[00:47:04] <kolie> Far more resourceful staff then me have tried.
[00:48:04] <kolie> Pipedot is interesting, but I think it only mirrors SN superficially.
[00:48:33] <kolie> It certainly doesn't have a staff infrasutrcture like rehash does.
[00:48:46] <AlwaysNever> ok, kolie, I've to go - thanks for fixing the last downed of the site, and for your work in general, for caring about SN
[00:48:58] <kolie> Yea of course. Take care interesting chat.
[00:49:45] <kolie> I really value what SN is already, that's why I told NC theres no way this is closing down, what can be done to reverse that.
[00:50:04] <kolie> It doesn't need to be anything different really. Just needs room to exist.
[00:50:31] <AlwaysNever> yeah, you came to the front just on time to avoid the clousure
[00:51:20] <kolie> Yea I have a small part in that, and it's seems to be progressing even as I've taken a back seat to others so yea.
[00:51:30] <AlwaysNever> it is great that you have time to work on all this crazy things
[00:51:48] <kolie> I work on things that interest me, SN always has
[00:52:21] <kolie> Take care for now.
[00:52:26] <AlwaysNever> I hope for a long future for SN
[00:52:32] <AlwaysNever> bye for now
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[04:04:47] <chromas> the technology of sn was far outdated when we started
[04:05:41] <chromas> we don't even have the java-based perl!
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[07:27:06] <Ingar> it works! what happened?
[07:28:33] <chromas> kolie popped in and kicked some things around
[07:29:39] <chromas> I recall the main thing being that varnish died
[07:33:57] <janrinok> Ingar, we switched it back on as soon as you left last time :D
[07:34:44] <chromas> What suspicious timing
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[08:24:16] <Ingar> I should leave sooner next time then!
[09:25:46] <chromas> while(httpd.status == 404) irc.kick("Ingar");
[09:27:49] <janrinok> lol - you just know that 'someone' will quote that as proof that we attach certain people, while ignoring the thousands of other comments we have had with the same person!
[09:28:04] <janrinok> *attack
[09:29:26] <fab23> and an Error 404 is easy to produce on any website :)
[09:30:29] <chromas> oh whoops I mean 500 or whatever
[09:30:37] <janrinok> It is not easy on our site - you have to catch the site while it is working!
[09:31:35] <chromas> would be a good time for a !grab if we had a bot for that
[09:31:51] <chromas> I'll still steal it for my personal db though
[09:35:24] <fab23> not sure how long e.g. 'wget --mirror ...' would run :)
[09:36:53] <janrinok> :D
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[12:21:31] <janrinok> It looks as though pius bird is having difficulty maintaining a connection.
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[15:59:07] <Ingar> chromas: 't was a 503!
[16:12:18] <janrinok> That's inflation for you ....
[16:19:49] <Ingar> once it reaches http error 666 we're in trouble
[16:30:09] <kolie> We used Holy C to compile the kernel thus eliminating all Http 666: Possessed Shell
[16:32:06] <drussell> Helpful error messages, you know, like "process died unexpectedly"
[16:32:08] <drussell> Gee, thanks.
[16:49:08] <fab23> Ingar: you could add your own code :) https://en.wikipedia.org
[16:49:09] <systemd-oomd> ^ 03List of HTTP status codes - Wikipedia
[17:02:14] * Ingar gives fab23 http error 418
[17:03:00] <fab23> Ingar: why did you know that I have just prepared a tea for me?
[17:04:06] <Ingar> just practicing that suspicious timing
[17:04:25] <fab23> I see
[18:11:50] <chromas> What's the error code for "process died expectedly"?
[18:11:58] <chromas> 0 I guess
[18:17:40] <drussell> I was meaning more about the "unhelpfulness" of locally logged debug messages...
[18:19:31] <drussell> In the case of an http status code 666, it would probably just be something like "something has gone horribly awry" or just 666 with no associated text or somesuch...
[18:20:32] <Ingar> "the server is a smoldering pile of ashes"
[18:20:58] <Ingar> "and it was summoned briefly from hell to tell you so"
[18:22:16] <drussell> :)
[18:22:26] <drussell> lpr on fire
[18:23:49] <chromas> running iis
[18:28:04] <drussell> If you're running IIS, your hair is probably already on fire.
[18:30:13] <janrinok> 'the hard drive is spinning so fast the server is now precessing perpendicular to it'
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[21:02:02] <Ingar> https://www.youtube.com
[21:02:03] <systemd-oomd> ^ 03Fire Is Good