#editorial | Logs for 2017-06-03
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[00:00:39] <nick> pretty much... there are exceptions, but it's a long way from the bias you'd expect from the 'liberal media'
[00:01:20] <nick> worth noting the last 'leftist' and 'liberal' leader the UK had was best friends with GWB
[00:01:50] <nick> thats the kind of leftist we like, one that has an ideological common ground with the american right.
[00:01:58] <charon_> US election functioned exactly the same way. Sanders, if given coverage at all, was always treated as an also-ran laughing stock
[00:02:40] <nick> yeah, it was very much the same, never afforded any credibility
[00:03:01] <nick> and even now, they look for any opportunity to undermine him, any hint of discontent from within the party
[00:03:12] <nick> or the old refrain of 'it was the unions that voted for him, not the people'
[00:03:44] <nick> ignoring how the conservative leadership is the main decider in their leader, not the people either
[00:04:39] <nick> Lord and Lady Fuckface are credible in their choosing of a political party leader, but a workers union is totally reprehensible if they do it.
[00:05:23] <charon_> of course, we know the Lords have a vested interested in their cattle's well-being
[00:05:46] <nick> and dont get me wrong, i don't support Labour
[00:07:26] <nick> same as the brexit vote... i have long term interests, short term interests, conceptual preferences, realistic expectations and to top it off, i make considerations for other people's interests too
[00:08:14] <nick> as someone with reasonable liquidity, no onerous debts and decent earning power... i could say fuck 'em all, i got mine.
[00:08:14] <charon_> crazy talk
[00:08:29] <nick> but i can't do that, knowing the less fortunate circumstances of friends and family
[00:10:23] <nick> i'd like to give everyone the opportunity to make their lives better, get out from underneath the debt slavery and have some financial security, a home to call their own, rather than just focus on what's best for my bank account
[00:12:38] <charon_> i think many, possibly a majority of people would feel the same way. but they are by and large the quiet people who raise their voices about it
[00:13:18] <charon_> who don't^^
[00:14:36] <nick> it's difficult, even for people who feel that way, as they have their own shit to take care of still, in our society now, especially if you're in a city, it's very hard to find the time and resources to build the society you want to live in
[00:14:53] <nick> it take all the energy and time you have to perpetuate your tolerable existence in the one you already live in
[00:17:20] <charon_> how is Corbyn still the Labour leader? i'd think after the no confidence vote and mas resignation of his cabinet, he'd take a hint
[00:18:44] <charon_> but yeah, i get that the party members vote, not the MPs
[00:45:07] <nick> popped out to the supermarket
[00:45:13] <nick> as i realised it was closing within the hour
[00:46:04] <nick> charon_, "Corbyn was re-elected as Labour leader on 24 September, with 313,209 votes (61.8%) compared to 193,229 (38.2%) for Owen Smith – a slightly increased share of the vote compared to his election in 2015, when he won 59%. "
[00:46:33] <nick> so after the no-confidence vote, he was re-elected by the membership
[00:49:43] <nick> his competition would be the poster child for what i mentioned before, about lip service to the traditional labour ideology... as Owen Smith was apparently a lobbyist for pharmaceutical companies before becoming a politician.
[00:49:47] <charon_> i'd probably take it a bit personally if 3/4 of my own hand picked shadow cabinet resigned
[00:52:00] <nick> hand picked is a bit of a stretch, it was basically open to anyone who wanted to associate themselves with old labour values
[00:52:04] <nick> from what i recall anyway
[00:53:19] <charon_> i guess
[00:54:05] <nick> for most of the last decade it has been a competition between the labour and conservatives as to who could be the most centrist
[00:54:37] <nick> there was no real ideology, just who could be the most middle of the road
[00:57:12] <nick> from what i understood there was still the blairite and brown camps in the labour party, and corbyn was an unwanted interloper in that particular brand of infighting
[00:58:16] <nick> personally though, i don't support any of them... after any time of one government i seem to be inclined to support the other, only to be let down
[00:59:42] <charon_> wait, blair was Labour?
[01:00:05] <nick> yes
[01:00:15] <charon_> here i thought he was held up as the arch-conservative
[01:00:27] <nick> thats why i said about about the last leftist being best buddies with GWB
[01:01:15] <charon_> maybe because he was only too happy to support GWB in war matters
[01:02:01] <nick> but that was 'new labour' whereas corbyn represents 'old labour' which is actually traditionally socialist and supported by worker's unions
[01:02:45] <nick> 'new labour' was conservative policy with some liberal window dressing
[01:03:19] <charon_> i see
[01:03:39] <nick> the policies are generally consistent between labour and conservatives since blair.. the only difference is what parts they decide to do more of, rather than take a different approach
[01:04:17] <nick> and the conservatives get a blank cheque book, because they're the 'responsible' party, so when they're building the national debt, they do it for the right reasons
[01:05:14] <nick> in 2010 is was going to be a balanced budget by 2015, in 2015 it was going to be 2018, in so 2017 it's now going to be in 2020* (so long as brexit goes perfectly)
[01:05:35] <charon_> ...
[01:06:10] <charon_> y'all are like a mirror of US politics
[01:06:43] <nick> pretty much
[01:07:15] <nick> but we had the 2010 coalition, which gave us an opportunity to discover the 'third party' once in power, ends up being indistinguishable from the other two
[01:07:16] <charon_> except i don't think anyone even pays lip service to a balance budget anymore in the US
[01:07:39] <nick> well of course not, now with DJT in the white house you don't need to, it will just happen because of his amazing business skills
[01:08:15] <charon_> he *is* getting us the best deals, you know
[01:08:25] <nick> and if not, will just declare some states bankrupt and sell the remaining off to an international asset management firm
[01:08:54] <nick> by the end of his government the US might only be a few blocks in NYC, but it will have a balanced budget.
[01:08:56] <charon_> sad irony, the states most likely to be bankrupt are the ones who voted for him
[01:10:20] <nick> thats the issue i really have with this 'we need a business man to lead government' ... its like the people don't understand what businessmen actually do
[01:10:56] <charon_> lie to get someone to agree to give them money?
[01:11:16] <nick> a society/nation is not a for-profit enterprise where you can liquidate underperforming sectors
[01:12:05] <nick> personal enrichment is generally the idea, even at the cost of the business, as we can see in plenty of places where successful CEO's get paid a lot of money to drive a business into the ground until it's acquired by another
[01:12:12] <nick> all the assets are stripped, most of the jobs disappear
[01:12:44] <nick> but the businessman has got his pay deal, and the business was acquired for however many billions, so it was a success
[01:12:48] <charon_> cf Mitt Romney
[01:13:25] <nick> yeah, he's a good example of how that kind of business works
[01:14:07] <nick> In my opinion, Trump is a less sophisticated version of that, as is my understanding his businesses have never really been long term profitable ventures, they're short term opportunities
[01:17:09] <nick> He's a successful businessman, especially when it comes to leasing his brand... his businesses, employees and other investors involved, seem to be much more quiet about their successes in association with him
[01:17:58] <charon_> where did i read the story suggesting that no US bank will lend him money because they always lose... so he turned to foreign banks, including Russian
[01:19:01] <nick> i havn't done enough of it... i only recall a story about him refusing to renegotiate with some foreign bank about his debts, until they loaned him some more money to make it worth his while to not default
[01:19:13] <nick> read/done
[01:19:41] <charon_> http://www.motherjones.com
[01:19:41] <upstart> ^ 03Trump Has a Huge Foreign Bank Problem | Mother Jones
[01:19:47] <nick> https://www.washingtonpost.com
[01:19:48] <upstart> ^ 03This White House statement on Trump’s ‘positive energy’ reads like a parody - The Washington Post
[01:19:51] <nick> did you see this story?
[01:20:25] <charon_> yeah, saw that the other day. it is so fucking north korea
[01:21:06] <nick> some commentary i heard on it made a valid point... the white house staff, when they are speaking or writing a statement
[01:21:12] <nick> they're doing it for an audience of one, DJT
[01:21:17] <charon_> yes
[01:21:37] <charon_> like briefing papers that mention him once per page to keep his attention
[01:23:06] <nick> and you're right with the north korea thing, when i heard the statement it's the first thought i had... 'read this kind of stuff about kim jong-il from the north korean government'
[01:23:38] <nick> at least in the UK we're more honest, with May characterising herself as a 'bloody difficult woman'
[01:24:43] <nick> "Our President is choosing to put American jobs, American consumers, American energy, and American industry first." - Mike Pence on Twitter yesterday
[01:24:53] <nick> i always wondered how many times you could fit America into 140 characters
[01:25:15] <charon_> and of course, The Shove
[01:26:04] <nick> when he pushed some other world leader to the side?
[01:26:51] <charon_> yeah
[01:27:23] <nick> that was definitely symbolic, even after seeing it a dozen times or more, it doesn't lose it's impact
[01:27:34] <charon_> granted, being the PM of Montenegro is not so high prestige... but yeah, dick move
[01:27:51] <nick> doesn't matter if the guy was a PM or not, you don't do that do people
[01:27:55] <nick> whoever they are
[01:30:19] <nick> the perception seems to be, that if you play to his ego, you can get whatever you want... Saudi Arabia being the best example... project his image onto buildings and put up billboards of his tweets, and he'll do whatever you ask of him
[01:31:29] <charon_> pretty sure it's reality
[01:33:19] <nick> although i talk about it quite a bit, the last few years have taught me to just not get involved in politics, dont support a party or ideology, just try to be a decent individual in your own terms and not attach yourself to any larger ideological group
[01:35:20] <charon_> i was thinking along those line myself earlier. i hate politics stories on the site, and would be glad to stamp them out. but you and i have had several conversations about current events. probably doesn't hurt that we're in fairly close agreement afaict
[01:36:24] <nick> as ive said before, if we remove politics from the site... where do we stop? do we just stick to reprinting press releases for new hardware?
[01:37:17] <nick> most of the time there is some element of politics, or potential commentary to be made in a news story, otherwise it wouldn't be news
[01:39:12] <charon_> i like to think the harder line i take prevents it from overwhelming everything else, which it easily could
[01:39:29] <nick> just taking yesterday as a random sample, 8/15 stories have some political ramifications
[01:39:57] <nick> only 2 or 3 are explicitly political
[01:40:09] <nick> but 8 provide an opportunity to make political commentary
[01:40:26] <nick> and are about 'social' issues
[01:41:21] <nick> if we tried to exclude politics we'd have a mix of press releases for new tech, space science (omit nasa/esa where possible), security exploit news
[01:41:50] <charon_> i counted 3. the ones with some political spillover, i don't think of as politics.
[01:42:01] <charon_> because they are primarily about something else
[01:42:43] <nick> it's not something i want to be in the position of deciding on what counts
[01:42:44] <charon_> i could even be argued around to feeling that way about the paris agreement story
[01:43:07] <nick> same as peoples feelings on what counts as a legitimate news source/report
[01:43:19] <nick> because i can argue against all of them, if you really want to be serious about it
[01:44:27] <charon_> but if it's "donald trump fires FBI director" there's nothing non-political about that. and people submitted story follow-ups for a week on that
[01:45:21] <nick> there is a difference between the explicitly political and others, but if we went the route of 'no politics'
[01:45:27] <nick> the comments would be full of "but this is politics"
[01:46:32] <nick> and they'd have valid points... at some level, stuff that matters and ...is people, is going to touch on political and social issues, and the comments will invariably go down that route, even if the story isnt explicitly political
[01:47:04] <charon_> it's not discussion that bothers me, it's both sides cover their ears and screaming at each other
[01:47:29] <nick> heh
[01:47:50] <nick> of course, and the result of that is i generally stay out of the comments
[01:48:46] <nick> it's hard to have a discussion, as someone without an agenda or ideology, when the majority of those involved in a discussion treat it like a sport
[01:49:08] <nick> rather than any attempt to learn different perspectives and trying to reach a common understanding
[01:51:42] <nick> but i guess that's my problem, as society we have decided that competition, picking a team and winning is what's important
[01:52:19] <nick> if there's an element of life we havn't found a way to turn into a competition with winners and losers, i don't know about it.
[02:04:24] <charon_> video games... pshhh, who am i kidding?
[02:05:51] <charon_> alright, last bit of work and then home. cheers nick
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