#editorial | Logs for 2015-09-14

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[12:41:31] <janrinok> hi guys
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[12:55:14] <janrinok> hi cosurgi
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[13:12:31] <janrinok> Bytram - Sean the Sheep is written and produced in the UK, it has been on TV for several years now. People over 'this side of the pond' have been enjoying it for quite a while. The film is only recently released though.
[13:32:43] <nick> afternoon janrinok
[13:32:49] <janrinok> hi nick
[13:33:09] <janrinok> just catching up with some of today's stories
[13:41:35] <nick> anything good?
[13:43:46] <janrinok> a bit 'meh' - but I shouldn't say that as I posted some of them :)
[13:45:11] <janrinok> weather is getting very blowy here - occasional showers but the wind getting v strong
[13:54:12] <nick> yeah, had rain here last night/this morning
[13:54:24] <nick> was kind of nice, yet i still woke up all hot and blah
[14:13:36] * nick sigh
[14:13:47] <nick> a day of cleaning and organizing shit
[14:14:29] <janrinok> I can't imagine you wearing an apron, holding a broom, and telling shit to get itself sorted out!
[14:15:22] <nick> lol
[14:15:47] <nick> i wouldn't usually bother, but my mum is coming to stay for a couple of weeks
[14:15:49] <janrinok> ... as long as you can still laugh, things are not too bad!
[14:16:05] <janrinok> ah, that answers my next question
[14:18:05] <nick> "Europe's refugee crisis is getting worse by the day. Less than 24 hours after Germany announced it would impose border controls with Austria, followed promptly by the Czech Republic, Slovenia and now the Netherlands, German vice chancellor Sigmar Gabriel predicted that as many as 1 million refugees may arrive by the end of the year as other nations moved to fortify their frontiers. In the
[14:18:05] <nick> meantime, however, Europe is dramatically escalating measures to halt the influx and as AFP reported earlier today, the European Union has now approved military action against human traffickers in the Mediterranean Sea. "
[14:18:23] <nick> got my own immigrant incoming, going to have to leave town...
[14:18:26] <nick> :p
[14:18:29] <janrinok> lol
[14:18:59] <janrinok> will you have to put her into a camp, or will she be able to share a home with an existing person or family?
[14:20:21] <nick> a camp would be good, but she'll be staying here. i'm going to relocate to a friends for the majority of the time.
[14:21:09] <nick> easier to do that than get a hotel, there isn't really space here, especially when i keep odd hours
[14:21:24] <janrinok> on a rather more serious note - remember how all the Schengen countries called us out for not opening our borders? I wonder how they will dress this one up.
[14:21:45] <janrinok> and returning to your mum's visit - Hide The Porn!
[14:22:20] <nick> lol
[14:23:03] <nick> the open borders thing is interesting, but we do essentially have open borders as far as trade goes anyway
[14:23:17] <nick> which is how most of the immigrants are coming in, through trade channels
[14:23:23] <nick> they're not going through passport control at heathrow
[14:24:06] <janrinok> true, but it must stick in someone's throat everytime (s)he has to talk about border closures.
[14:24:15] <nick> oh indeed
[14:24:43] <nick> but i think this is going to have negative consequences
[14:24:45] <janrinok> 'military action' also covers a multitude of sins
[14:25:29] <nick> because we're scared of foreigners coming over here, i dont want to be stuck in a 'papers please' police state - i dont want travel to be more expensive and difficult
[14:26:13] <janrinok> if the borders were closed all over Europe, like they once were, you wouldn't have so many reaching the ports that give direct access to the UK
[14:26:16] <nick> some people are quite up for building a big ol' fence around the UK, which still wouldn't make it possible to actually check all the freight coming in and out of the country
[14:27:19] <nick> because all this border control stuff is all well and good, but it must be done in a way that does not affect 'business as usual' which also includes getting refugees and immigrants in the country for various different reasons
[14:27:54] <nick> the borders should be closed outside europe, my understanding was there are still borders with the nonEU countries where they're coming from
[14:28:40] <janrinok> we have always managed to bring people in when we have wanted to - I can recall RAF flights from Cyprus and Lebanon bringing manageable numbers into the country direct.
[14:28:57] <nick> and then you get the hungarian situation where they actively push people through into other parts of europe, so other EU states are complicit in sending the refugees this way, i doubt any initial phase of border controls will really make much difference to that
[14:29:29] <janrinok> it is certainly one to watch.
[14:30:10] <nick> i was thinking last night, this is possibly the first overt symptom of the next phase of 'cultural development'
[14:30:14] <nick> in a way to put it nicely
[14:31:40] <nick> a situation created and than exacerbated to ensure the surveillience state and social control are seen as necessary regardless of how unpleasant it might be
[14:32:36] <nick> i discussed the other day about the dailymail comments, including the one endorsing drone strikes in the UK, and the person i talked to about this essentially was essentially ok with it
[14:32:44] <nick> as he assumed it wouldn't happen in our part of the country
[14:32:45] <janrinok> I'm not sure I would go that far, but I cannot disprove your view.
[14:33:12] <nick> we are a country of NIMBYs
[14:33:33] <nick> we dont give a shit about other peoples though and have no empathy for the back yards this shit does end up in
[14:34:38] <nick> janrinok, it's a slow process as is the way these things work, an inch at a time is far easier for the population to digest
[14:35:59] <janrinok> Oh, I understand the logic, I'm just not convinced that it is the correct interpretation but, as I say, I cannot disprove it either.
[14:36:26] <nick> well
[14:36:32] <nick> lets hope the bombs for freedom work then
[14:36:40] <nick> as it's apparently the only option
[14:37:53] <janrinok> lol - the cleaning is obviously not cheering you up much :)
[14:39:01] <nick> i'm just depressed, i've yet to be proven wrong over the last year about the nations trajectory
[14:39:46] <nick> i said about a month ago, the immigrant crisis is going to get quite a bit worse, i was told by people with more wisdom than myself that it peaked earlier in the summer
[14:39:50] <nick> yet here we are
[14:40:06] <janrinok> cheer up - things will get much worse in the future which implies things aren't as bad as they could be now!
[14:40:16] <nick> heh
[14:41:05] <janrinok> brb
[14:43:37] <janrinok> just had to get S ready for the nurse who should arrive in the next half hour or so
[14:45:06] <nick> im wondering if i should really pull my finger out over the next year or so, so i can buy a house
[14:45:18] <nick> purely for the purpose of trading it with my parents for theirs lol
[14:45:41] <janrinok> where is their house again?
[14:45:48] <nick> caribbean
[14:46:05] <janrinok> sounds like a good plan - assuming that they would be happy with the deal of course
[14:46:12] <nick> they want to move back
[14:46:14] <nick> or my dad does
[14:46:54] <nick> his retirement dream was not what he had hoped, now he's looking back on the UK like it was the good times
[14:47:12] <nick> ignoring that he spent more time than ive been alive saving and working non-stop to leave the place.
[14:47:56] <janrinok> are you not in danger of discovering the same thing?
[14:48:08] <nick> i could possibly buy it off them, but i'm also trying to stop my uncle becoming homeless.
[14:48:20] <nick> sure, i already did it once
[14:48:52] <nick> but ive learned a lot in the last few years, seeing the world differently
[14:49:09] <nick> now i'm in the real work of london business, learning how the system really works
[14:49:27] <nick> before that, all i'd known was the 9-5 life
[14:49:39] <janrinok> and you are establishing a business and a future.
[14:50:06] <nick> the idea is to establish the business in a way that doesnt tie me to the south east of england.
[14:50:35] <janrinok> that's a reasonable aim
[14:51:06] <nick> for now, i'd be happy to move to wales, but i'm also thinking about the longer term
[14:51:23] <nick> even when i came back to this country, there never was a plan to stay
[14:51:29] <nick> i wanted to go back to australia
[14:51:52] <janrinok> a bit of a difference between Wales and Australia
[14:52:26] <nick> well sure, wales is the short term realism
[14:52:39] <janrinok> Can the business survive a move to Wales - or is your presence in the SE a bit of a given at the moment?
[14:52:51] <nick> at the moment, the south east is a given
[14:54:13] <janrinok> what would it need to break that link?
[14:55:05] <nick> well, there's projects coming up which might send me out there anyway, but otherwise it's the new web-based retail side of the business
[14:55:57] <janrinok> I thought the whole point of the i'net is that you were not tied to one place
[14:56:05] <nick> if that picks up when we promote it, then i could split my time at first and then hopefully base the business from there.
[14:56:22] <nick> indeed, thats the longer term goal, but getting enough revenue to make that sustainable is going to take some building
[14:56:31] <janrinok> ok, that make sense
[14:56:57] <nick> and also, would still need some presence in the UK, which can be done with the business partner, as we need to keep stock and send stuff out for delivery
[14:57:20] <nick> but that could be done anywhere in the UK, and would be far more cost effective to not be in the south east.
[14:57:46] <janrinok> so, ideally, the new web-based retail should earn enough to fund an additional body to keep it going?
[14:58:13] <nick> it's also something i could hire someone to do when it reaches a certain level, as no skilled workers are required, no real training etc, just to box shit up and send it out, deal with phonecalls
[14:58:22] <nick> heh, yeh
[14:58:59] <janrinok> that's pretty much how RS got themselves established, but you are in a slightly different niche
[14:59:24] <nick> and that could be done, not in the south east, as a real living wage here is far too costly for the type of work and skills involved
[14:59:51] <janrinok> exactly, in fact the cost of living in Wales is signifcantly cheaper
[14:59:53] <nick> but i could pay someone £9-10/hr in wales and know they'd be doing good.
[15:00:23] <nick> here, i wouldn't be comfortable paying any less than £15/hr - which just cant be justified
[15:00:26] <janrinok> I'm tempted to ask 'When can I start?"
[15:00:36] <nick> especially when business costs would be even higher to operate here
[15:00:44] <nick> when there's no reason to be located in this area for that business
[15:00:50] <nick> heh, i hope soon ;)
[15:01:39] <nick> i need people to answer the phone for me primarily, thats what my business partner is very good with.
[15:02:19] <nick> good with dealing in person, or via email - i hate being on the phone
[15:02:32] <janrinok> One of my fears is that my fluency in French will suffer as I get older and eventually, I will end up here fairly isolated.
[15:02:51] <nick> i think mainly because there's no time to prepare for a call, you have to answer and go with it on the fly.
[15:02:57] <nick> why do you think that would happen?
[15:03:09] <nick> lack of using it daily?
[15:03:59] <janrinok> well, I don't get to use it much. Most of my time is spent in the home where we both use English. And dementia is common in my family - both my parents suffer(ed) from it.
[15:04:46] <nick> maybe try using french at home sometimes? i'd imagine it would be good for both of you
[15:04:58] <nick> keeping the mind working
[15:06:26] <nick> like in the caribbean often, but the reverse, the locals speak english, but when the conversation gets heated they switch mid conversation to patois
[15:06:36] <janrinok> oh, I keep my mind working, but we both want to use English, it is, after all, our mother tongue. I can get by chatting and doing the routine stuff, but when it comes to using unusual (medical/technical etc) vocabulary it is below par. And I find that I am already losing words faster than I can learn new ones.
[15:07:33] <nick> well, as i think we've demonstrated here, even when we share the language, the technical stuff often gets confused ;)
[15:08:49] <janrinok> yes, but I have to be able to look after us both, and explaining what I need (or S needs) to a doctor or other specialist is not easy.
[15:09:42] <janrinok> I can say what I have to say but I can guarantee that the question they ask back will contain vocabulary or terms that you don't find in the average French book.
[15:12:42] <nick> of course, i appreciate that must be very difficult
[15:13:01] <nick> can be hard enough when everyone speaks the same language
[15:13:34] <nick> not really sure what can be done about it though
[15:14:13] <nick> apparently i didnt unpack from my trip at the start of the year - my suitcase still half full of clothes.
[15:14:21] <nick> and some koolaid.
[15:14:42] <janrinok> lol - so you are finding all those clothes that you were wondering about ....
[15:19:47] <nick> i was indeed wondering where those shorts went
[15:36:53] <janrinok> got to go cook - see you in a while!
[15:37:00] janrinok is now known as janrinok_afk
[16:50:59] <cmn32480|away> *()^#$)*%$@ing meetings
[16:56:16] <janrinok_afk> I can guess that you don't like the said meetings very much...
[16:58:19] <cmn32480|away> good guess Kreskin!
[16:58:40] <cmn32480|away> and made worse by the fact that I have been out of the office all last week.
[16:59:04] <janrinok_afk> but at least you get to go home tonight
[17:00:43] <cmn32480|away> silver lining to every cloud :-)
[17:00:55] <cmn32480|away> ever been punched in the nose by a tree?
[17:01:02] cmn32480|away is now known as cmn32480
[17:01:16] <janrinok_afk> I thought you were back home this week?
[17:01:16] <nick> i hope you learned your lesson with that, cmn32480
[17:01:47] <cmn32480> I was pulling down some deadfall... and it didn't fall the way I expected.
[17:01:51] janrinok_afk is now known as janrinok
[17:01:52] <nick> when chopping down trees, they seem to defy physics, or at least what you'd anticipate.
[17:01:57] <nick> thats been my experience the few times ive done it
[17:02:19] <cmn32480> wasn't chooping down. this was stuff a storm had broken off and left hanging
[17:02:27] <cmn32480> often called "Widow Makers"
[17:02:34] <janrinok> ah, I think that I am beginning to understand....
[17:02:53] <cmn32480> I pulled... and got a smack in the face for it
[17:03:08] <cmn32480> I barely touched it I swear!
[17:03:11] <janrinok> obviously, a very determined tree
[17:03:24] <cmn32480> I dind't even have my chainsaw rto defend myself
[17:04:01] <janrinok> well, the tree was unarmed
[17:04:27] <cmn32480> not true.... it had all kinds of limbs... and some were detached as weapons!
[17:04:48] <janrinok> it used all of its limbs, as did you
[17:05:01] <janrinok> your limbs were merely outnumbered!
[17:05:17] <cmn32480> yes... yes I was
[17:05:36] <cmn32480> after it happened I had to leave
[17:05:47] <janrinok> other than your nose, any other damage caused by the tree?
[17:05:57] <cmn32480> nope just my pretty face
[17:06:03] <cmn32480> :-(
[17:06:13] <janrinok> I will refrain from commenting
[17:06:23] <cmn32480> <finger>
[17:06:32] <janrinok> brb 5
[17:10:15] <nick> lol
[17:10:36] <cmn32480> go ahead... keep laughing....
[17:10:40] <nick> i will ;)
[17:10:42] <cmn32480> I was the one bleeding like a stuck pig
[17:10:52] <nick> if i recall, the mrs found it quite amusing too?
[17:11:06] <cmn32480> yes. after I quite cursing
[17:14:36] <nick> just thought id found a useful hidden stash of useful coins
[17:15:33] <nick> not so useful, is a mix of different currencies. gbp, eur, xcd, bbd, usd
[17:16:11] <nick> i think thb too, probably all together not even $5USD.
[17:20:17] <janrinok> back
[17:20:19] <nick> no dinner for me :(
[17:20:25] <cmn32480> forth
[17:20:25] <janrinok> why not?
[17:20:48] <nick> was hoping to use the change i found to buy foodings
[17:21:00] <janrinok> ah, living very hand to mouth
[17:21:28] <nick> i can still get food, but it would have been nice to get it for free
[17:21:39] <nick> and i did do some book impulse buying on ebay the other night
[17:22:06] <janrinok> sci-fi, technical, or something for the weekend?
[17:22:54] <nick> my usual shtick, history, politics, psychology
[17:23:09] <janrinok> not exactly light reading then
[17:23:27] <nick> it did turn out though, from an earlier impulse book buying frenzy i went on... one of the books appears to have a legit autograph from Bob Woodward
[17:23:50] <nick> i was sorting them out, flicked through one i hadn't got around to and probably wouldn't, saw the autograph inside and thought i'd check it out
[17:23:56] <janrinok> I don't know the gentleman, but I assume that adds value to the book itself
[17:24:18] <nick> Bob Woodward did the initial reporting on the Watergate scandal
[17:24:36] <janrinok> I had forgotten.
[17:25:13] <nick> i assume the book was taken to a signing or a speech or something
[17:25:31] <nick> the book is much older
[17:26:13] <nick> the book is 'Comparative local government' from 1949
[17:26:43] <janrinok> er, I don't expect it in the best sellers list any time soon
[17:27:14] <cmn32480> iot woudl ahve been on the best sellers list far in the past
[17:27:28] <cmn32480> I woudl suggest that it might predate janrinok, but I don't think it is on stone tablet.
[17:27:29] <janrinok> I'm not sure that statement is true
[17:27:47] <janrinok> it only predates me by a few years
[17:28:49] <nick> im glad i found it, i thought it was an interesting and random autograph to stumble across
[17:29:30] <nick> not something i'd ever go out of my way to buy or anything, but finding it in a stack of books i hadn't got around to sorting through was quite a treat
[17:29:46] <janrinok> I spent several days at the end of last week and during the weekend trying to debug my storybot - only to find the SN news feeds weren't working.
[17:29:46] <cmn32480> imagine all the time it took to chisel that autograph into the stone tablet....
[17:30:00] <janrinok> especially with a wooden chisel
[17:30:08] <nick> SN RSS is down?
[17:30:15] <nick> or rss-bot?
[17:30:34] <janrinok> well, both actually, but they fixed RSS fairly quickly.
[17:31:08] <nick> rss is something i should actually use, havnt got into the habit of it
[17:31:14] <janrinok> I had to write my own rss scraper so that I could continue to debug my storybot
[17:31:38] <nick> i was considering setting up an installation of commafeed for my interests
[17:32:07] <janrinok> still, it's a useful chunk of code and I will integrate it into the storybot set at some point
[17:32:27] <nick> storybot will do us out of a job soon enough i'm sure ;)
[17:32:53] <janrinok> well, it could provide a lot more but it still cannot tell good stories from crap
[17:33:26] * janrinok thinks that others have the same opinion of his editing anyway
[17:34:01] <nick> opinions are like...
[17:34:02] * cmn32480 thinks janrinok underestimates himself
[17:36:24] <cmn32480> and arthur MIGHT be considered plaigerism by some
[17:36:29] <janrinok> cmn32480: I do laugh everytime I read your personal description on the authors page - "misspeller of everythign" is a beaut!
[17:38:03] <nick> that is by far the best personal description on the authors page
[17:39:06] <janrinok> 11/10 for effort
[17:40:15] <janrinok> ATK plagiarism? I blame the editors!
[17:42:20] <janrinok> nick: what is your likely meal tonight? We've just had salmon, potatoes, green beans, and onion bahjis
[17:44:08] <janrinok> the bahjis were left over from yesterday but, as they were homemade, I decided to use them up.
[17:45:36] <cmn32480> I am so glad you guys are enjoying that
[17:45:50] <cmn32480> and I am the misspeller of everythign
[17:46:34] <janrinok> as I said, 11/10 for effort
[17:46:52] <cmn32480> :-)
[17:46:59] <cmn32480> I now have to add bringer of joy!
[17:47:33] <cmn32480> and if you guys want to check it out, the Buzzard had the declination of submission response live on dev
[17:47:37] <cmn32480> it works
[17:47:44] <cmn32480> I did some testing over the weekend
[17:47:49] <janrinok> I'll take a look
[17:49:21] <janrinok> cmn32480: where should I be looking
[17:50:12] <cmn32480> on editing page for taking a sub and pusing it to the story queue
[17:51:13] <cmn32480> next to the "Delete" button there is now a reason field
[17:51:34] <cmn32480> free text. so putting in "you suck!" is not a great idea
[17:52:09] <janrinok> not seeing it
[17:52:15] <cmn32480> moment
[17:52:48] <cmn32480> you are logged into dev, yes?
[17:53:23] <cmn32480> Update Submission without Promoting
[17:53:23] <cmn32480> In the last 60 days, there have been 3 submissions from martyb <martyb@soylentnews.org> (0 accepted).
[17:53:23] <cmn32480> Pending submission by martyb at 2015-09-13 12:33:54 08a7a
[17:53:38] <janrinok> found it - I've never deleted using that button - I always do it from the sublist page. I'll have to rethink my system
[17:54:09] <janrinok> where does the submitter receive that Reason?
[17:55:55] <cmn32480> depends on the user preference that is set
[17:56:19] <cmn32480> if you go into your account on dev, and look at the messages tab, you will see a new one for declined submission
[17:56:28] <cmn32480> choose web or email
[17:58:06] <janrinok> ok, that looks usable
[17:58:29] <cmn32480> it works. I qa'd it over the weekend under tutiledge from Bytram
[17:58:32] <janrinok> no use for ACs of course.
[17:58:40] <cmn32480> correct
[17:59:03] <janrinok> was that intentional?
[18:00:49] <cmn32480> how are you going to contact an AC? send it to all email addresses on the internet?
[18:01:11] <cmn32480> or do you mean that I QC'd it
[18:01:27] <janrinok> I'm having the same bug with the reason field as I do with the first editing page - I cannot enter text into that field. Coolhand has the same problem.
[18:02:34] <janrinok> My suggestion of a web page showing the rejected submissions for, say, 7 days along with the reasons would have helped everyone to learn from the submitter's mistakes, and be useable by ATK, tt(number), ACs and others
[18:03:40] <cmn32480> I shoudl think that can be implenented
[18:03:54] <cmn32480> .op
[18:03:54] -!- mode/#editorial [+o cmn32480] by SkyNet
[18:04:03] <cmn32480> .deop
[18:04:03] -!- mode/#editorial [-o cmn32480] by SkyNet
[18:04:18] <cmn32480> I have invited TMB to join us if he is around
[18:04:29] <janrinok> I hadn't noticed that you don't usually have op on here
[18:04:40] <cmn32480> I don't keep OP in any channel
[18:05:07] <cmn32480> most everythign I need (which is very little) I can do with the dot commands
[18:05:17] <janrinok> we needed it in the early days when certain individuals were rather disruptive
[18:05:55] <cmn32480> as long as you ahve voice... things like .kick or .kickban work fine
[18:08:23] <janrinok> still got that bug. I've turned off all add-ons, and it occurs in 2 different browsers.
[18:10:02] <cmn32480> \me wonders what front end you connect to
[18:10:14] * cmn32480 wonders what front end you connect to
[18:11:07] <janrinok> dunno
[18:12:17] <cmn32480> no
[18:12:20] <cmn32480> on dev it is all one box
[18:12:26] <cmn32480> there is no "front end"
[18:15:51] <janrinok> the first editing page is a load of crap for me - I have to go to the second page just to achieve anything.
[18:16:29] <nick> yup
[18:16:42] <janrinok> nick, is it the same for you too?
[18:17:52] <nick> it is indeed
[18:18:33] <janrinok> well, that is 3 of us. It is unlikely to be associated with our configuration but more likely something that SN has changed in the last few months.
[18:18:39] <cmn32480> you ahve to hit the preview button for anyhtign to do anythign?
[18:18:45] <janrinok> yep
[18:18:49] <cmn32480> mine works fine
[18:19:11] <cmn32480> but this is not an excuse for the two of you to stop[ editing.
[18:19:23] <janrinok> I can change topic, but anything that requires a keyboard input is fukt
[18:19:46] <janrinok> the cursor just returns to the Editors Comments field and stay there
[18:20:07] <cmn32480> hmmmm interesting
[18:20:23] <cmn32480> I have adjusted my "Who am I?"
[18:20:24] <cmn32480> Editor. Occasional site breaker. Friend to many. Misspeller of anythign and everythign. Reese's Pieces are my favorite candy. Baby Ruth is my favorite candy bar.
[18:20:40] <janrinok> still like it
[18:20:46] <cmn32480> my typo about 5 lines up made me realize it
[18:21:20] <janrinok> I just get used to reading your responses like that - it is beginning to look normal (for you)
[18:21:40] <cmn32480> I wish I had a snappy comeback to that,.
[18:21:56] <cmn32480> but I got nothin'
[18:21:59] <janrinok> the last one you came up with was 'finger'
[18:22:10] <cmn32480> no it wasn't.
[18:22:15] <cmn32480> it was <finger>
[18:22:30] <cmn32480> fing you but good!
[18:22:47] <janrinok> lol
[18:23:09] <janrinok> quick wit and repartee - not found here!
[18:24:07] <cmn32480> nor good speeling!
[18:29:26] <janrinok> my spilling mistooks are legendary
[18:29:41] <cmn32480> yes.. the community is wonderful as proofreaders
[18:29:50] <janrinok> actually, most of my fuck ups are getting that way!
[18:40:00] <janrinok> damn, it is going dark already, and its only 20:39. That'll be summer on the way out then...
[18:40:13] <cmn32480> yup
[18:40:19] <cmn32480> shit
[18:40:25] <cmn32480> why isn't that server responding
[18:40:35] <janrinok> which server?
[18:40:38] <cmn32480> ruh roh
[18:40:41] <cmn32480> one of the ones here
[18:40:45] <cmn32480> not SN
[18:41:21] <janrinok> ah, I was just going to point out that pj had rebooted prod, but it is not what you were talking about
[18:41:37] <cmn32480> no
[18:41:43] <cmn32480> I got bad thing happenieng
[18:41:49] <janrinok> so I won't ask him to do it again
[18:42:03] <janrinok> - bad moon on the rise
[18:42:05] <cmn32480> I got one of my vsphere servers not responding
[18:42:29] <janrinok> my snurglebracket is tripodially recessing
[18:51:13] <cmn32480> f**k..... Dell ahrdware issue
[18:51:37] <cmn32480> but all my servers hould have VMOtionerd to the other box... WETF????
[18:51:44] <janrinok> did you fix it by hitting it with something bigger than itself?
[18:51:56] <cmn32480> poked it in the eye
[18:52:01] <cmn32480> only resolution
[18:52:05] <janrinok> a good secondary plan
[18:52:13] <cmn32480> stops shark attacks
[18:53:16] <janrinok> someone must have done that round here - not had a shark for decades
[18:53:46] <janrinok> brb - need sammich and something to drink!
[18:53:58] <cmn32480> make sure it has bacon
[18:56:06] <nick> ahh bacon
[18:57:52] <cmn32480> c'mon schartz
[18:58:00] <cmn32480> c'mon schwartz
[18:58:34] <cmn32480> 2 sides to every schwartz... i think I got the down side of this schwartz
[19:00:42] <janrinok> ham and spicy homemade chutney
[19:00:50] <cmn32480> sounds yummy
[19:00:54] <nick> i want!
[19:00:55] <janrinok> yep
[19:01:09] <cmn32480> but at this moment.. I jsut want the bloody server to start
[19:03:02] <cmn32480> praise the lord and pass the ammunition
[19:03:13] <janrinok> large cal or small?
[19:03:21] <cmn32480> .45
[19:03:29] <cmn32480> big and slow
[19:03:39] <cmn32480> 'cuz you still can't outrun it
[19:03:41] <janrinok> ah, you want to frighten it a bit first?
[19:04:14] <cmn32480> less chance of a passthrough than a 9mm
[19:08:04] <janrinok> one sammich is never enough
[19:08:20] <cmn32480> my kids are almost old enought o get them for me
[19:08:35] -!- TheMightyBuzzard [TheMightyBuzzard!~TheMighty@Soylent/Staff/Developer/TMB] has joined #editorial
[19:08:37] <janrinok> do you hire them out at competitive rates?
[19:08:44] <cmn32480> no
[19:08:51] <cmn32480> but they are trained to get me bneer
[19:08:53] <janrinok> uncompetitive rates?
[19:09:03] <cmn32480> absolutely... which explains the lack of clientele
[19:09:11] <cmn32480> heya buzzard
[19:09:17] <janrinok> ah, I've cut down on the bneer by at least a letter
[19:09:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> heya, what's up?
[19:09:39] <janrinok> just sayin' hello TMB
[19:09:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah i meant with the invite from cmn32480 earlier
[19:09:57] <cmn32480> we had a question earlier about the stuff I was tesing on Dev
[19:10:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, fun
[19:10:24] <cmn32480> janrinok> My suggestion of a web page showing the rejected submissions for, say, 7 days along with the reasons would have helped everyone to learn from the submitter's mistakes, and be useable by ATK, tt(number), ACs and others
[19:11:04] <janrinok> that was before we learned that you had broken one of our editing pages
[19:11:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> reason isn't stored anywhere, just sent to the user.
[19:12:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> and i didn't break it. none of my code's gone live in quite a while.
[19:12:52] * TheMightyBuzzard gives paulej72 the hairy eyeball
[19:12:57] <janrinok> np - just a thought. But 3 of us have found a bug - I was chatting to pj on the other channel about it
[19:13:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, bytram's bug
[19:13:32] <janrinok> looks like 4 of us have found it then
[19:13:59] <janrinok> anyway, how was the fishing over the w/e?
[19:14:01] * cmn32480 feels left out
[19:14:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> weird thing is nothing has changed as far as our editing pages go
[19:14:27] <janrinok> cmn32480: you have a broken server - how many bugs do you want?
[19:14:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh, was out running errands this mornin not fishing. did have a quality nap after though.
[19:15:01] <janrinok> that is always worth a bit of effort - I have a nap after lunch each day
[19:15:14] <janrinok> just because I can :)
[19:15:17] * TheMightyBuzzard scratches his head
[19:16:12] <janrinok> I deinstalled takyon's scripts - to discount that as a possible cause - and I have tried 2 different browsers showing the same bug.
[19:16:17] <cmn32480> dunno... but me think s this is a dell problem
[19:16:23] <cmn32480> &*(%^&*()%)ing hardware
[19:16:37] <janrinok> try another .45
[19:17:01] <janrinok> they are like duct tape - if it is working you aren't using enough
[19:17:10] <janrinok> isn't*
[19:17:38] <cmn32480> hollow points work better
[19:17:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> one of yall got noscript installed?
[19:18:05] <janrinok> if it is effect that you want, try going bigger!
[19:18:21] <janrinok> TMB, I certainly have
[19:18:36] <TheMightyBuzzard> try it in both on and off position for the broken page
[19:18:42] <janrinok> k
[19:19:23] <cmn32480> I'm not is a spot ot do any testing. am OTP w/ Dell hardware support
[19:19:24] <janrinok> same bug no matter what the setting
[19:19:40] <cmn32480> thank god for vmotion
[19:20:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> what the entire fuck, i didn't even know it was possible to alter the position of the cursor without javascript
[19:21:57] * TheMightyBuzzard shrugs
[19:22:06] <janrinok> the only field I can edit is the Editor's Notes field
[19:22:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> guess that means it's a paulej72 or NCommander thing
[19:22:37] <janrinok> well, it's beyond you and certainly beyond me - that narrows the options quite a bit
[19:22:42] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, that should be unpossible without javascript. can you even tab between the fields?
[19:23:08] <janrinok> thx for thinking about it though. You been gaming recently?
[19:23:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, i blow shat up in a spaceship regular
[19:23:36] <janrinok> yes tab works
[19:24:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> excellent, a workaround. now we just gotta figure out wtf is going wrong with it which means we gotta reproduce the bug on a non-editor computer
[19:24:23] <janrinok> it is the act of placing the cursor in a field by the mouse - is there a 'mouse over' directive on that page
[19:24:59] <janrinok> can't find one in the source
[19:24:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> no
[19:25:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> you using FF?
[19:25:24] <janrinok> palemoon and ff both have the fault
[19:25:32] <janrinok> 2 different computers
[19:25:36] <cmn32480> try IE
[19:25:40] * cmn32480 ducks
[19:25:42] <janrinok> lol
[19:25:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> regular view source will be wrong then. will need the web developer extension and View Generated Source under that
[19:26:13] <janrinok> k
[19:26:24] <TheMightyBuzzard> seriously though, bug disappeared when Bytram tried opera.
[19:26:39] <cmn32480> I don't ahve the bug in chrome or IE
[19:27:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> i wish i had it. working for me means there's nothing i can do to figure it out really.
[19:28:39] <janrinok> understood - I've got to go for today anyway. Thx again. See you guys tomorrow
[19:28:46] <cmn32480> night janrinok
[19:28:49] <cmn32480> sweet dreams
[19:28:52] <nick> take care janrinok
[19:29:01] <janrinok> my best to you all, and to J and the kids
[19:29:07] <cmn32480> thanks
[19:29:16] <cmn32480> hopefully this is a quick fix and I get to see them tongiht
[19:29:21] <cmn32480> :-)
[19:29:24] <janrinok> I hope so too
[19:30:06] janrinok is now known as zz_janrinok
[19:30:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> cmn32480, you heard the tab between fields workaround, yeah? spread that around if ya would until it can be reproduced and fixed.
[19:33:58] <cmn32480> will do. I'm checking in FF now
[19:50:20] <NCommander> janrwhat broke?
[19:52:05] -!- Cmn32480_phone [Cmn32480_phone!~AndChat41@2600:1003:b00d:goun:t:nu:hmyv:xrtk] has joined #editorial
[19:52:49] <Cmn32480_phone> Ncommander - check scroll back for last 45 min or so. Jan describes the issue.
[21:03:44] -!- Cmn32480_phone has quit [Quit: Bye]
[21:21:06] <NCommander> I'm not getting the bug
[21:21:10] * NCommander is tired and his brain is fried
[21:21:46] <cmn32480> neither am I. Jan also explained to PJ at 14:25 in other channel
[21:22:08] <cmn32480> I was going to test in FF on Windows, but am in middle of massive server problem.
[21:22:15] <cmn32480> will test later adn post results.
[21:22:26] <cmn32480> works fine for me in Chrome and IE.
[21:26:01] * Deucalion retrofits NCommander with a new brain replete with dual roots superchargers... coupla hugs and your good to go :D
[21:26:46] <nick> i dont appear to have the problem anymore
[21:27:04] <nick> i assume it was my browser just being an ass for some reason
[21:28:51] <cmn32480> 890q2457-qing java
[21:29:03] <cmn32480> who the hell thouhgt java was a good idea for a remote console?
[21:29:39] <nick> oracle?
[21:29:59] <cmn32480> ok. fair enough
[21:30:26] <nick> they must be right, you dont get to make hundreds of billions of dollars by being wrong.
[21:30:31] <nick> or at least thats what i was told..
[21:32:33] * nick ponders writing a review or something on the game 'Fallout Shelter'
[21:33:17] <cmn32480> cross your fingers.... firmware update starts... NOW!
[21:34:04] * nick crosses fingers
[21:34:22] <nick> tyoing is mewer diffcult now
[21:34:23] * cmn32480 started praying before I pressed the button
[21:37:04] <Deucalion> nick, ties in with what takyon was saying the other day.... we could do with a gaming nexus / category. Then pray to TMB it doesn't get spammed up with +GG / -GG off topic meta BS. A place for game reviews, hardware etc. and discussion thereof is one thing, if we can do it without the politicised crud that follows that would be great.
[21:37:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, ya, need a politics nexus for that.
[21:37:58] <cmn32480> firmware update complete.
[21:38:02] <cmn32480> no smoke!
[21:38:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> i think we oughta do a nexus for each topic while we're at it. and refine the topics as well to fit what we actually post.
[21:38:48] <nick> Deucalion, i think its crazy we havn't at least got a topic for it yet
[21:38:53] <Deucalion> TheMightyBuzzard, we need a "Keep Ya Drama In Here" nexus for that.... a politics nexus should be about politics if we ever dare have such a thing
[21:39:00] <nick> it would be nice for a little light relief occasionally, because news otherwise is fairly serious business.
[21:39:20] <nick> i like the idea of a politics nexus, but at the same time, i think it would be counterproductive
[21:39:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> oh we have politics all the time between me and gewg_
[21:39:33] <nick> as politics impacts all other topics in some way
[21:39:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[21:40:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> politics nexus needs all other nexus names as topics within it
[21:40:47] <Deucalion> A political reform nexus would be nice... or perhaps it would become /politics/reform or some such.... but then I'd be banging my own little 2c drum in there :D
[21:41:18] <nick> it should really be under an expanded 'digital liberty' or something, in my opinion
[21:41:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> might as well. we can have epic debates and flamewars.
[21:41:28] <nick> as thats as close as we have to politics now, but with a narrow focus
[21:41:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> s/digital//
[21:41:54] <nick> yeah
[21:41:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> we do a lot of just plain old liberty stuff too
[21:41:58] <nick> that would be the easy way to do it lol
[21:42:08] <nick> i think thats more appropriate than 'politics'
[21:42:26] <nick> which is a loaded and divisive thing where people might reflex to a specific side, rather than taking an argument or theory on its own merits
[21:43:12] <Deucalion> TMB... you just went all reddit on me... s/ r/ a/ .. maybe one day I'll bother to grok reddit... or maybe best that I don't, then we can do something different here rather that follow. Or were you doing a sed thing... I get confused.
[21:43:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> still will. there's a lot of folks would disagree with me if i said the sky was blue.
[21:43:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, don't axe me. reddit's interface is too shit for me to even use.
[21:43:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> i was doing a sed thing though
[21:43:59] <Deucalion> Axe you? Why would I do that?
[21:44:09] <nick> cant solve it entirely, but having the 'politics' label will just enable people more easily to reflex into whatever camp they feel they identify more closely with
[21:44:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, good point, socialists don't let normal people go round armed =P
[21:44:42] <Deucalion> pfft
[21:45:26] <nick> liberty means something to everyone, and is generally more positive i think
[21:45:32] <nick> whereas politics is divisive in its nature
[21:45:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> well hell. a commie done snuck in here when i wasn't looking and liberated my tea for the state. that or i drank it when i wasn't paying attention.
[21:46:36] <nick> lol
[21:46:58] <Deucalion> I like to push people toward that political compass thing that looks at things on a 4 axis basis - authoritarian / libertarian & left / right. Personally I don't think it has enough degrees of freedom, but anything that can snap people out of a simple left/right mindset is a win right now.
[21:47:20] <nick> Deucalion, i remember that thing
[21:47:35] <nick> it is much better than the typical left/right, but still room for improvement
[21:47:41] <nick> i should probably take it again, see where it puts me these days
[21:47:52] <Deucalion> baby steps....
[21:48:37] <Deucalion> No doubt it is still online...... I think I ended up in the unpossible in the current climate region. :D
[21:48:41] <nick> i find, for the most part, whatever end of the spectrum, people are generally in agreement in the end results
[21:49:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> we really should just do a line with me on one end and gewg_ on the other. simplify.
[21:49:20] <nick> but somehow that debate has managed to end up being, what type of statist do you want?
[21:49:20] <cmn32480> if everybody agrees that the people in power are morons, wehy the hell are they still elected?
[21:49:45] <TheMightyBuzzard> cmn32480, so the wrong lizard doesn't win
[21:49:46] <Deucalion> Two US viewpoints? Somehow that doesn't really feel inclusive.
[21:50:11] <nick> because we get a choice of 'socialist' statist or 'fascist' statist, when it actually comes to the ballot
[21:50:19] <cmn32480> just don't tell gewg_ that Linux patches things. Linux only updates.
[21:50:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, well we could put you on the other end but there's folks who would be off that end of the line
[21:50:23] <nick> but in the end, they all want to increase the size of the government machine and its influence over life
[21:50:35] <nick> but they do it with a different veneer over the top
[21:50:56] <nick> but that helps people reflex into the veneer they prefer, being against the socialists scroungers or against the capitalist pigs
[21:51:12] <Deucalion> I, personally don't even get that much of a choice nick, residing in a super safe constituency.
[21:51:19] <nick> oh me too
[21:51:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> i really want a government small enough i never, ever notice it.
[21:51:27] <nick> i voted in a local election once
[21:51:55] <nick> would have voted for LibDem before the coalition, but learned a lot since then
[21:52:11] <nick> and informed that no one is going to represent me at any level, because i'm a marginal case
[21:52:21] <nick> my demographic wont win anyone an election, why would they care?
[21:52:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> zactly
[21:53:07] <nick> as as i mentioned before, i was told that by a PR man (in social conversation, out of hours) for currently serving politician
[21:53:20] <nick> too many as there.
[21:53:23] <TheMightyBuzzard> s'part of why i vote for the worst lizard of the pack. cause there is no best.
[21:53:55] <nick> seems more reasonable than 'vote for the least objectionable'
[21:54:01] <nick> which is what ive been told to do by the family
[21:54:29] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's fun. you get to feel like Nero. all fiddling while rome burns.
[21:54:31] <nick> which is a hard one to call when, say potentially in america, you have trump or clinton to choose... pretty hard to find the least objectionable out of that
[21:55:07] <cmn32480> Bernie Sanders!!!!!
[21:55:39] <cmn32480> after all... he is a real socialist
[21:55:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> not really. they're both democrats. every last one of trump's views did a 180 before he decided to run.
[21:56:05] <TheMightyBuzzard> my theory, he's still a democrat and just trolling the election for some lulz
[21:56:24] <cmn32480> they are all as crooked as Lombard St.
[21:56:57] <nick> bernie sanders is interesting, but in the UK we have the same with Corbyn. both have arguably good intentions, but are also appear to be missing the bigger picture.
[21:57:33] <nick> but both in the UK and US seem to be taking a similar approach, making the parties compete to be as similar to each other as possible
[21:57:53] <nick> the sanders/corbyn thing i feel is a distraction and controlled opposition
[21:59:25] <nick> and in the US, i'm pretty sure it's the republicans turn in the chair anyway, so even if sanders does get on the ticket, it's the upper tier D's turn to have a few years on the beach
[22:00:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, don't care what the polls say, there's no way a dem wins after 8 of obama.
[22:01:02] <cmn32480> i'd tend to agree
[22:01:08] <nick> same will probably work in the UK next time round also, Labour or another coalition will get in, Corbyn wont be Prime Minister
[22:01:18] <nick> we'll need someone to be the new tony blair to whoever is the new george bush
[22:02:27] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'd like a new reagan but neither party is anywhere close to where he was anymore.
[22:02:37] <Deucalion> TheMightyBuzzard, I don't think you know where I sit on any line, nt your fault, I am all over the map on many issues, to be honest I am not sure I even do - as no commonly spoken of line suits what I think. I am at a position where I consider the current political situation to be completely at odds to the public will and essentially broken, it represents no-one. This is not democracy as I understand that to be.
[22:02:57] <nick> Deucalion++
[22:02:57] <Bender> karma - deucalion: 1
[22:02:59] <nick> Deucalion++
[22:02:59] <Bender> karma - deucalion: 2
[22:03:47] <nick> i really dont understand the fascination with reagan
[22:04:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, i don't but if you were hard loony left you would have piped up with less sane things on the few instances of you opining.
[22:04:35] <TheMightyBuzzard> nick, he was the closest thing to a libertarian we've had in my lifetime.
[22:04:44] <nick> anyone who has actually spent any time thinking on the subject does not fall into the 'loony left' or whatever right wing equivilant
[22:04:52] <nick> it's the media that creates those stereotypes
[22:04:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> and he wasn't radical in his positions. he was willing to compromise.
[22:04:58] <nick> most people are apathetic
[22:05:37] <Deucalion> nick,The baby boomers loved the reagan/thatcher terms. Still reaping the benefit today :D or should that be :(
[22:05:40] <nick> just gets more confusing, i thought it was supposed to be reagan <3 thatcher, and that lady is not for turning.
[22:06:13] <nick> which is similar to how, in how we're taught to understand it, that blair and bush shouldn't have been best buddies
[22:07:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> i'm a big maggie thatcher fan too but not for her politics though i am a fan of anything resembling austerity.
[22:07:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> i liked that she was a strong woman without being a horrible bitch
[22:07:54] <nick> depends who you ask on that one
[22:08:16] <nick> apparently she wasn't a bitch, because anyone who wasnt on her side, didn't spend very long in government
[22:08:22] <nick> it all works well in a nice echo chamber
[22:08:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> right. ruthless but not mean.
[22:09:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> hillary as a contrast is nothing but mean. she'd drum you out of govt because you pissed her off not because you were standing in her way.
[22:09:49] <nick> you're right on that, but comparing anyone to clinton
[22:09:58] <nick> the other person is probably going to come out looking quite good
[22:10:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> truth
[22:10:42] <cmn32480> i fucking hate java
[22:10:56] <TheMightyBuzzard> mrs. mind you. bill was a political genius. he never blackballed anyone because he never needed to.
[22:11:16] <TheMightyBuzzard> cmn32480, truth
[22:11:31] <nick> ive heard the argument that bill is the frontman and hillary is the brains
[22:11:50] <nick> he's the charismatic charmer, and she does the dirty work
[22:11:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> nah. you'd see it in her campaign if she were.
[22:12:00] <nick> thats true
[22:12:08] <nick> but that ego might have got too big at this point
[22:12:15] <nick> which is really how it appears to me anyway
[22:12:15] <TheMightyBuzzard> likely
[22:12:40] <nick> she spent decades getting to where she is, and thinks shes untouchable
[22:13:00] <Deucalion> TheMightyBuzzard, there you go with your linear thinking again - no I am no hard loony left or right. But some beliefs I have could sit within either camp. Likewise with the Auth / Lib line, on some issues I am in one camp on others way over in the other. We need to re-define how we engage with this and nuance it more. At the moment it is like WWI - just chuck some more effort into defending a hopeless position in the hope of edging a victory
[22:13:00] <Deucalion> by a slim margin at the expense of everyone involved. The smart strategist says "this is pointless, too costly, fall back and go to war on our terms not theirs for that is a losing game".... oh wait, I said that, scrub that smart strategist bit. But you get the gist - the bounds of the battle need to be redefined, this shit is archaic and no longer serves its purpose.
[22:13:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> boy is she right. not with a ten fool pole, that.
[22:13:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, the whole you n me as opposites on a line thing was a joke man. not meant for deep inspection.
[22:14:39] <Deucalion> TheMightyBuzzard, I'm just shooting the breeze, this is the crap that emanates from me after a couple of beers. Nothing personal :D
[22:14:41] <TheMightyBuzzard> but yeah, i agree with ya more or less
[22:15:11] <nick> we need to look forward now, not back, invoking the memories of reagan and thatcher (as examples) are what enabling the current political class to fuck everyone
[22:16:39] <TheMightyBuzzard> my bet, i think we're in for republicans or moderate dems for the next thirty years or so. we only elect one loonball leftist about that often.
[22:16:52] <nick> regardless of the merits of previous heads of state, we can't turn back the clock, and we can't look at things in an isolated bubble, policy extends beyond their term in government.
[22:17:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> FDR->Carter->Obama
[22:17:25] <nick> obama did a good talk of being a 'loonball leftist' in the 2008 campaign
[22:17:34] <TheMightyBuzzard> nod nod
[22:17:38] <nick> but from a european perspective, he has not followed that through at all
[22:18:04] <TheMightyBuzzard> i dunno, he did pretty good with the peace at any cost deal with iran
[22:18:52] <Deucalion> wasn't there a recent accord on that ahead of the two heads of states meeting?
[22:19:06] <Deucalion> on the enrichment thing
[22:19:07] <nick> using one example of the 'obamacare' situation, the way it was sold was a leftists dream, but the reality it's a corporate and financial services heaven.
[22:19:17] <nick> the peace deal will only last until it's politically convinient for it not to
[22:19:21] <nick> thats how deals with the US work.
[22:19:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, no idea. haven't really been following that close.
[22:19:59] <nick> 'we sign a deal, you have to follow it, when it becomes difficult for us politically or economically, it's over.'
[22:20:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> nick, that's how deals between any two political bodies work =P they're all made up of professional liars
[22:20:15] <nick> exactly
[22:20:22] <nick> which is why 0 weight should be placed on the iran deal
[22:20:31] <nick> it's the biggest circus in town this week
[22:20:43] <nick> has no bearing on reality and what the security services will continue to get upto
[22:20:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> fun thing is the next president can scrap that deal without so much as consulting congress.
[22:21:16] <nick> obama had to do something to show he's not out for war with every country in the middle east
[22:21:28] <nick> israel and saudi being the exceptions, obviously
[22:21:33] <nick> too much money involved there.
[22:22:01] <nick> TheMightyBuzzard, which is probably the point, everyone wins political points with the circus at the end of it
[22:22:13] <TheMightyBuzzard> really, the US public doesn't give much of a damn about the middle east if us and israel are left alone.
[22:22:29] <nick> the public doesn't for sure
[22:22:37] <nick> but economic interests have a different perspective
[22:23:17] <nick> the MIC, big energy and transnational finance would have fuck all to do without the clusterfucks going on over there
[22:23:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> eh, doesn't play as big a factor as you'd think. if it did we'd be filling OUR barrels with iraqi oil.
[22:23:53] <nick> how do you mean
[22:24:03] <TheMightyBuzzard> call it billing them for the liberation
[22:24:21] <Deucalion> nick, obamacare was intended to be USNHS, it got negotiated down to what it now is ( as you correctly assess). Akin to our call for a referendum on PR and we got to vote (or spit on) AVR which gave whatever party that be in power the ability to say "well we had a vote on that back in 200N, public said no" - thereby quashing any further discussion of actual PR for ~30 years at least. Such is politics.
[22:24:43] <nick> "Plans to exploit Iraq's oil reserves were discussed by government ministers and the world's largest oil companies the year before Britain took a leading role in invading Iraq, government documents show."
[22:25:12] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, not so much negotiated. not one legislator had read the thing before it was signed into law.
[22:25:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> it was written entirely by lobbyists.
[22:25:29] <nick> Deucalion, i'd really like to agree with that, but an NHS system, was never even put on the table
[22:25:41] <nick> it was always insurance and profit based
[22:25:51] <nick> i may be wrong on that, but thats all ive seen
[22:25:59] <cmn32480> vote completely along party lines, before the replacement senator from Massachusetts (who was a republican) was sworn in.
[22:26:35] <Deucalion> TheMightyBuzzard, I'll leave you to fix that, we have our own similar problems this side of the pond. Just everyone seems to be sleep-walking again.
[22:27:19] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, nah. i don't give a damn about it really since i'm exempt on account of my tribe running itself like a business and investing the profits in things like free tribal healthcare.
[22:27:31] <nick> Deucalion, the sleep-walking will be replaced by fear soon enough sadly :|
[22:30:25] <nick> somewhat related, Deucalion: dailymail ran a story this morning along the lines of "How Corbyn Has Cost the Taxpayer £3million already"
[22:30:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's really a rather refreshing government. ruthless cunts but being ruthless for its people.
[22:30:47] <Deucalion> TheMightyBuzzard, so a tribal co-operative, common good type deal? Mentally, I keep coming back to co-ops as a foundational cornerstone for a sound society. Then Buzz rips co-ops for being a socialist construct even though it seems he himself is benefiting form that self same construct.
[22:30:56] <nick> and how has corbyn cost £3m already? ... well if you add up his salary from being an MP for 30 years, and his expenses attatched to that
[22:31:01] <nick> £3m of taxpayer money!
[22:31:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, eh, not really. it really is operated most closely like a regular corporation but with its shareholders being people with chickasaw blood.
[22:32:37] <TheMightyBuzzard> but for all its superficial resemblance to socialist ways, and this is important, any participation is voluntary.
[22:32:54] <TheMightyBuzzard> there are zero taxes.
[22:32:56] <nick> pretty sure thats what most people envision with co-ops
[22:33:02] <nick> voluntary participation
[22:34:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> i've got no issue with voluntary socialism. do whatever you want with the product of your own labor. it's yours not mine.
[22:34:41] <nick> i never said anything about socialism.
[22:34:54] <cmn32480> fuck this better work
[22:35:01] <TheMightyBuzzard> co-ops are by nature socialist but you get what i mean.
[22:35:20] <nick> my dad says he's a socialist, because thats what he was taught was the opposite of being a greedy asshole
[22:35:30] <nick> but he doesn't actually believe in socialism in any context really
[22:35:32] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeesh
[22:35:43] <nick> but it's the label he was taught that he identifies with in some way
[22:35:46] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's not. it's just greed from the ground up instead of the top down.
[22:37:07] <nick> greed is wrong either side it comes from, it's a shame the top down gets a free pass mostly
[22:37:25] <cmn32480> cross fingers again, please
[22:38:16] <nick> i'm a bad capitalist, trying to run a business without being a lying asshole to maximize profit
[22:38:38] <TheMightyBuzzard> be a truthful asshole
[22:38:44] <nick> or using perception of value as the only marker of worth
[22:38:49] <nick> i am, and people dont like it
[22:38:58] <nick> they rather go for the guy in the suit who tells them what they want to hear
[22:39:00] <TheMightyBuzzard> that's how capitalism is sposed to work. equal, voluntary exchange.
[22:39:10] <nick> which is how politics works
[22:39:46] <nick> thats the ideal, but in reality, the better the liar, the more successful, and there's no real mechanism for dealing with that
[22:39:59] <TheMightyBuzzard> like with your employees. you pay them what you think they're worth, yeah?
[22:40:04] <nick> aye
[22:40:23] <nick> but it also means i cant employ people that often
[22:40:32] <nick> because i wont pay minimum wage or 'going rate'
[22:40:57] <TheMightyBuzzard> well that may mean you need to reevaluate your value judgment on them. the real minimum wage is zero from being unemployed.
[22:41:09] <TheMightyBuzzard> that needs to be taken into account.
[22:41:16] <nick> oh sure, i understand that theory
[22:41:23] <nick> but also i understand the cost of living here
[22:41:57] <nick> a 1 bedroom apartment costs $1600 or more a month in rent in these parts, paying the minimum wage or the going rate doesn't afford anyone any security
[22:42:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, that bugs me. how do normal people afford to live in london?
[22:42:02] <nick> so they need the state to top up their wages
[22:42:05] <nick> provide them with housing etc
[22:42:11] <nick> which is how it actually works
[22:42:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> yeesh
[22:42:30] <nick> big corp, who dont pay taxes, employ people on shitty money, with few hours to avoid employers liability
[22:42:37] <nick> and then the normal taxpayer picks up the difference
[22:42:52] <nick> whilst feeling fucked by the people on welfare
[22:43:13] <nick> the whole system is fucked
[22:43:22] <TheMightyBuzzard> so basically if the government quit subsidizing housing, housing industry would crash and after a huge nasty fallout there would be semi-affordable housing in london?
[22:43:27] <nick> yup
[22:43:37] <nick> but the whole countrys worth is tied into real estate value
[22:43:40] <nick> and financial services
[22:43:48] <nick> we cant pop that bubble
[22:43:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> which is odd since you have so little real estate
[22:43:53] <nick> that is a thatcher legacy
[22:44:11] <nick> and the current gov, who like to talk about how they're inspired by thatcher
[22:44:17] <nick> are doing things like help to buy
[22:44:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> smoke break
[22:44:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> smoke break
[22:44:25] <TheMightyBuzzard> smoke break
[22:44:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> woah, wtf was that
[22:44:53] <TheMightyBuzzard> something made my hotkey go wonky
[22:45:22] <nick> help to buy is pretty much, you find 5% deposit for a property, the gov will give you a 20% loan on the rest
[22:45:32] <nick> and then the bank will loan you after that
[22:46:03] <Deucalion> TheMightyBuzzard, we come back to definitions again - to you socialism means big state, spendy, spendy, high tax. That is cold war era thinking. Co-ops, are indeed social, but I don't think they are necessarily socialist as you may believe that term to mean. Co-ops can be about common good within communities, with no state intervention, each looking out for the other while providing service to the co-op for exchange, this is very much a movem
[22:46:03] <Deucalion> ent about less intervention. People doing it for themselves and for each other. Fuck it, I'll name it..... Humanism. No-one else here wants to so let's go with the Humanist Party..... I may have tabled this thought before. :D
[22:46:45] <nick> Deucalion, if you ever come up with an idea for a co-op, count me in
[22:47:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, could be. i drink too remember. i don't have an issue with co-ops as long as there's a choice to be involved in them or not.
[22:48:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> nick, you're talking in a co-op right now.
[22:48:26] <nick> TheMightyBuzzard, you're also right about not having much real estate, but that does mean, pretty much any reasonable sized house in the London area is technically worth about $750,000
[22:49:17] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, i never did get why people are so fascinated by living in a city. sure there's more to do but not enough to justify the difference in cost of living.
[22:49:20] <nick> house next door had people move in a year ago, sold it for £100,000 profit, was on the market for barely 2 weeks.
[22:49:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> good on them.
[22:50:14] <Deucalion> nick, I have a gadzillion ideas about how they could work. Making them work in our current regulatory framework is another matter. Hence why I suggest a new party - which is no use without PR - which was nixed by the fucked up AVR referendum that was not about PR at all. I'll find away if it kills me.
[22:50:16] <nick> good if you can get it.
[22:50:35] <nick> but it did require getting on the housing ladder in the thatcher era when 'right to buy' was a thing
[22:51:15] <nick> the AVR referendum was the biggest scam going in my book
[22:51:21] <TheMightyBuzzard> heh, right to buy... yeesh
[22:51:39] <nick> " It was announced in Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne's 2013 budget speech, and was described as "the biggest government intervention in the housing market since the Right to Buy scheme" of the 1980s.[2] It is an extension of a previous programme called FirstBuy that was aimed solely at first-time buyers.[3][4] Help to Buy has itself been expanded and extended."
[22:51:52] <nick> "biggest government intervention in the housing market"
[22:52:48] <TheMightyBuzzard> well now in all fairness you lot on that side of the pond come from a looooong history of the government doing a lot more invasive shit than that.
[22:52:51] <nick> showing how fucked it is, the 'help to buy' scheme is available for houses worth upto $900,000
[22:53:22] <nick> 75% (or more, i forget) of the populations wealth in this country is tied to property values.
[22:53:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> ugh
[22:53:43] <Deucalion> Oh woop! Rather than increase the housing stock, let's take the over demanded stock and make it easier to buy, thus hiking prices yet again.
[22:54:17] <nick> i forget the statistics on the numbers of houses they promised to build, or the bullshit 'replacement' quotas they failed to reach
[22:54:32] <Deucalion> Any flat (apartment) comes up for sale... snapped up by a buy to let investor... sane with small houses.
[22:54:53] <nick> yup
[22:55:05] <nick> and as i know from my work, the middle east money is real
[22:55:22] <nick> have clients dumping probably hundred million into the real estate market
[22:55:43] <TheMightyBuzzard> and it doesn't occur to people to move fifteen or thirty miles away where it's cheaper?
[22:55:59] <nick> i'd have to move much further than that
[22:56:13] <nick> move out of london, you're in the nice countryside with the stately homes and old castles
[22:56:26] <TheMightyBuzzard> ahhh.
[22:56:41] <nick> where i am now, it can take me 2 or 3 hours to go 10 miles
[22:56:45] <nick> if im heading into central london
[22:56:49] <nick> by car that is
[22:56:51] <TheMightyBuzzard> forget all you lot's realestate is already used up
[22:57:10] <nick> there's about 25million people within the M25 i believe
[22:57:15] <nick> which is the motorway that goes around london
[22:57:54] <nick> actually it's apparently less than that
[22:58:00] <nick> but also, official statistics on it...
[22:58:02] <TheMightyBuzzard> we're a bit different over here. like my dad before he just retired was driving 90 miles to work and then the same home every day.
[22:58:17] <nick> "The most up-to-date population figures are from Eurostat, that the London metropolitan area is the largest in the EU with a population of 13,879,757"
[22:58:26] <cmn32480> i did that for about 18 months Buzzard.
[22:58:37] <cmn32480> from north of Baltimore to DC. 75miles each way
[22:58:47] <nick> same time in the car, much different distance travelled
[22:58:50] <TheMightyBuzzard> it's annoying but it was worth the extra difference in pay vs cost of living
[22:58:50] <cmn32480> coudl take 90 minutes to 4 hours, depending on traffic
[22:58:51] <Deucalion> TheMightyBuzzard, I could move 200 miles and it would not be cheaper. All the housing is full and people will put up with stupid commute times. Remember the UK is quite small. Vested interests keep new building too a minimum..... this impacts housing prices but also demand for the trades that build new housing. The situation is way out of whack with reality, and it will burst.
[22:59:48] <nick> also, could live a long way away
[22:59:51] <nick> but the commute costs
[23:00:02] <nick> fuel being what 2x at least what it is in US?
[23:00:44] <TheMightyBuzzard> likely. it's running right at $2/gallon right now
[23:00:44] <nick> $7+/gal
[23:00:52] <nick> thats the UK average
[23:01:06] <Deucalion> Take the car.... take 4 hours.... take the train.... any profit wiped out on the season ticket
[23:01:24] <nick> it's been almost $9, before the oil price collapse
[23:01:28] <TheMightyBuzzard> you lot have very expensive trains then.
[23:01:47] <Deucalion> And you have very slow trains
[23:01:52] <TheMightyBuzzard> this is true
[23:02:13] <nick> and the train enables you to get near where you need to go
[23:02:15] <cmn32480> we do, but the trains here are nto used nearly as much, unless you are in particular cities
[23:02:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> NY subway even though won't make anything expensive. even poor folks can afford it daily.
[23:02:22] <nick> when i used to take train to work, it was a 20minute walk to the station
[23:02:29] <nick> an hour on the train, 20minute walk to the job
[23:02:43] <nick> and $15 for it
[23:02:53] <cmn32480> there are only certain cities that have decent trains here
[23:02:57] <cmn32480> New York
[23:02:58] <nick> cost me $6 once to go one stop on the underground.
[23:03:00] <cmn32480> LA
[23:03:10] <nick> over a bridge literally.
[23:03:10] <cmn32480> DC
[23:03:19] <nick> but thats what it cost for a single ticket to go one stop
[23:03:30] <TheMightyBuzzard> ya, we don't even have trains in most cities. everyone drives. but they can since we're spread out enough.
[23:03:48] <nick> i have to drive, cant take ladders and stuff on the train
[23:04:11] <TheMightyBuzzard> got yourself a lorry?
[23:04:20] <nick> when i was an apprentice
[23:04:27] <nick> i used to spend more in parking than i did earn each day
[23:04:33] <TheMightyBuzzard> ouch
[23:04:36] <nick> £30 wages, £35 parking+fuel
[23:04:40] <nick> and maybe get some of it back in a month or two
[23:04:43] <nick> if the company felt nice about it
[23:05:00] <nick> and the joys of 'maximum stay 2 hours'
[23:05:10] <TheMightyBuzzard> heh
[23:05:16] <nick> so every 2 hours, walk 15minutes to car, drive 15 minutes to find a new space, walk 15 minutes back to the job
[23:05:24] <nick> get an hour and a half work done, then repeat
[23:05:37] <nick> i once had to park 3 zipcodes away.
[23:05:42] <nick> because parking restrictions
[23:05:44] * TheMightyBuzzard laughs
[23:05:49] <Deucalion> This is like discussing apples and oranges..... rail and road travel comparison between US and UK.... it's so different to not even be worth consideration.... other than perhaps comparing suburban commute costs into NYC to London suburbs. The rest of the US, outside such dense metropolis is so sparse no rail network could ever be efficient and the personal mobile is the obvious solution
[23:06:08] <TheMightyBuzzard> ^^
[23:06:14] <nick> yup
[23:06:28] <cmn32480> Deucalion, you are correct. yet they kleep trying tho tell us that rail is the best thign that they can do to save the environment
[23:06:58] <Deucalion> cmn32480, which "they" do you mean?
[23:07:01] <nick> a friend of mine in rural america does like to moan about getting stuck in traffic, by that they mean, being held up by a truck going slow, or having to wait for a couple to pass before they can pull out of a side road.
[23:07:11] <cmn32480> they being the idiots that we keep electing
[23:07:15] <cmn32480> for the most part
[23:07:20] <TheMightyBuzzard> nick, zactly
[23:07:43] <cmn32480> sucks when you get stuck behind that tractor
[23:08:06] <TheMightyBuzzard> for real and for true but usually they'll pull off when they get a line built up behind them
[23:08:12] <nick> i time my driving to avoid traffic, and dont drive slow, yet my car tells me my average speed is 20mph.
[23:08:31] <TheMightyBuzzard> ye gads. i do more than that on residential streets.
[23:08:33] <Deucalion> I'd love to get stuck behind a tractor, just enjoy the view of fields and breath the air. It's all relative I suppose.
[23:08:55] <cmn32480> long as they aren't spreading manure!
[23:08:56] <nick> Deucalion, i actually got quite emotional a while back, driving through the countryside
[23:09:07] <TheMightyBuzzard> Deucalion, come out for a visit sometime. i'll show you some fine spots to spend an hour going 15 miles.
[23:09:12] <nick> was a really nice day, was driving the landrover, fields and stuff
[23:09:16] <nick> it made me really sad.
[23:09:58] <TheMightyBuzzard> well crap, i better get out there and finish mowing. been fun folks.
[23:10:07] <cmn32480> c-ya buzzard
[23:10:09] <nick> laters
[23:21:57] <Deucalion> nick, I get emotional when I take the long route back home to see the aged folks - M1 > Chesterfield > Scenic route over the Peak District National Park.... to undisclosed. I tend to travel early morning to avoid traffic... even in the ravages of winter, with rain squalling, that landscape in the early morning light makes me reminisce my youth.
[23:22:46] <nick> glad it's not just me
[23:24:07] <nick> when i was in wiltshire this summer, it was beautiful to see the landscape, rolling fields and fare more nature than development
[23:24:18] <nick> such a contrast when you end up back down the M4
[23:24:20] <nick> :|
[23:24:57] <Deucalion> When I make that journey, I head out at ~4am (time of year dependent) just to take that in when I get up there in the early morning light.
[23:26:34] <nick> sounds like a nice way to do it, being up for sunrise in the country is quite amazing
[23:27:08] <nick> in the right circumstance i enjoy staying up to see the sun come up and get that early morning light
[23:30:09] <Deucalion> TheMightyBuzzard, as long as you promise not to lock me in some teepee smoking peyote to put me on some spiritual guide journey, that you and your buddies piss yourselves laughing about the "idiot" after... oh... and I will come fish with you... as long as you take them off the hook, never mastered that, always end up sticking myself. I'll gut them, cook them and eat them though...... more room for pranks as you tell me what is edible or not.
[23:34:35] <Deucalion> nick, you talking about the blue hour? light but not sun up. Weird time... in spring and summer the birds stop chattering - it's an odd silence if one listens for it. Either that or I experimented too much many years back.
[23:35:06] <nick> that and the initial sun up also
[23:35:40] <nick> i enjoy the whole experience, ive had the opportunity to when working nights at festivals, or having a late night partying
[23:35:53] <Deucalion> Around here - sun up means traffic noise....
[23:36:54] <nick> oh indeed, but here that doesnt stop anyway - only works when out in the country
[23:37:06] <nick> if i go to the window now, im sure i can hear the nearest A road
[23:38:00] <nick> can even shake the house if a large truck goes by the right way, and that can happen 24hrs a day.
[23:38:34] <Deucalion> thankfully I live on a side road
[23:38:41] <nick> when i was in cornwall a couple of years ago, i found it very weird, staying in a hostel for a few nights
[23:38:46] <nick> but there was no sound... silence
[23:38:48] <nick> it was spooky
[23:39:42] <Deucalion> a hostel in cornwall? what was that £100 a night?
[23:39:48] <nick> live on a side road too, but around there parts a main road is never too far away
[23:40:26] <nick> it was the YMCA in Penzance i think, wasn't too bad
[23:40:49] <nick> i am not a fan of shared bathrooms though
[23:41:47] <nick> i think it was less than £30 a night for 2 people.
[23:43:00] <nick> was not in season, very quiet time in general
[23:43:23] <nick> pubs and such closed because it wasnt tourist season
[23:43:49] <Deucalion> I never found hostelling to be arduous.... roof ^ check, food ^ check, running water ^ check. warmth ^ check..... sure it is not glamorous and yeh the shared dorms are not great but I think it does OK.
[23:45:09] <nick> oh for sure, i dont have anything against it at all, i just like to read when in the bathroom of a morning.
[23:46:43] <Deucalion> lol, perhaps you just need to get better at anticipating when the Richard3rds are going to imminent... more fibre or something.
[23:47:29] <nick> my beach shack in thailand was very not glamorous and i loved that, only had cold running water, bare concrete floor in the bathroom, had to flush the toilet with a bucket
[23:48:02] <nick> it's more a time when i can avoid distractions than anything
[23:48:31] <nick> nothing pinging me on the computer, unable to answer the phone or get someone bugging me for something
[23:50:16] <nick> i find it hard to read with the rest of lifes distractions, thats a few minutes of the day it feels possible to escape them
[23:53:48] <Deucalion> The climate is not the same here as in thailand - I have done one winter without heated water in my life here.... never again, ever. I will forgo central heating, light... pretty much anything... to avoid washing in near freezing water then trying to sleep in an unheated room.... I guess it is character forming... I grew up with ice on the inside of the windows and it didn't kill me. But that was normal back in single pane window days.
[23:54:49] <nick> not arguing there, wouldn't want to live without it here, even when i was living in more tropical climates, i still had warm showers.
[23:56:34] <nick> and thats partly because in hot climates, if i have a cold shower, sweat will pour off me as soon as i step out.