#editorial | Logs for 2015-05-23
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[00:17:31] <Bytram> question: I took a poll suggestion from the story queue and ran with it... want to give proper attribution to the submitter...
[00:18:08] <Bytram> I'm thnking of accepting that submission, letting it hit the main page for a moment, and then checking it s NON-display so that it 'disappears'
[00:18:52] <Bytram> might be a short window, less than 30 seconds where someone *might* see it appear.
[00:18:55] <Bytram> any better ideas?
[00:19:20] <n1> not really
[00:19:41] <n1> takyon, i cant see your "e accent aigu" in the submission
[00:20:00] <Bytram> the poll story goes 'live' in about 20 seconds.
[00:20:13] <takyon> um
[00:20:23] <takyon> exposes
[00:20:26] <takyon> with an accent
[00:20:40] <Bytram> done.
[00:20:53] <takyon> Duncan Campbell, who publishes hard-hitting exposés [duncancampbell.org] of government spying [theregister.co.uk]
[00:21:07] <takyon> I have a question
[00:21:13] <takyon> I hate paywalled science
[00:21:39] <takyon> and I'm about to publish a story about marine scientists studying plankton which is dominating the Science magazine
[00:21:50] <takyon> they published 5 studies at once, and they are all paywalled
[00:22:48] <takyon> my question is, should I include links to 5 abstracts after the main blurb, with the expectation that people will justifiably whine about the paywall
[00:22:50] * n1 was looking at the previous submission
[00:22:53] <n1> that is why i couldnt find it
[00:23:20] <n1> 5 seperate studies?
[00:23:29] <takyon> http://www.sciencemag.org
[00:23:32] <Scruffy> ^ 03Tara Oceans studies plankton at planetary scale
[00:23:43] <takyon> scroll past references
[00:24:06] <Bytram> are pre-accepted versions available on arxiv?
[00:24:17] <takyon> Idk
[00:24:40] <takyon> I don't see much other than math/physics on arxiv, and I need a good way to search for that kind of shit
[00:24:47] <takyon> because I am tired of all the paywalled science
[00:24:49] <n1> i would submit the story, and include it in the submission that they're all paywalled
[00:24:57] <n1> because that is some bullshit really
[00:25:41] <Bytram> I agree with the sentiment.
[00:26:02] <n1> without that, i doubt many people would even find out
[00:26:07] <n1> we're as bad at RTFA as ever
[00:26:15] <Bytram> Not that we have a reputation as a site in having the community actually *read* TFS, nevermind the actual journal articles, but it's the principle!
[00:26:28] <Bytram> ninja's
[00:27:38] <n1> ninja's?
[00:29:00] <Bytram> typo. Ninja'd -- both expressed the same thing at the same time.
[00:29:22] <Bytram> or, more accurately, I just got beat out by someone else who expressed the same thing.
[00:30:27] <n1> you made it far more eloquently
[00:34:16] <Bytram> merci!
[00:34:35] Bytram is now known as Roy_Orbison
[00:34:39] <Roy_Orbison> Mercy!
[00:34:43] Roy_Orbison is now known as Bytram
[00:34:49] <Bytram> =)
[00:35:58] <takyon> iMad
[00:36:01] <takyon> bbl
[00:36:13] <Bytram> takyon: ciao for now!
[00:36:22] <n1> laters, takyon
[00:36:46] * Bytram needs new glasses... read that as: "taters, lakyon"
[00:37:32] <n1> https://www.youtube.com
[00:37:33] <Scruffy> ^ 03Later Tater - YouTube
[00:38:36] <Bytram> lol
[00:39:40] <n1> other_barry++
[00:39:40] <Bender> karma - other_barry: 1
[00:53:58] <Bytram> takyon: just ran your TOR story
[00:56:13] <n1> random thing that the current #Soylent chat made me think about in regard to zerohedge stories
[00:56:44] <n1> robert peston has retweeted zerohedge stories
[00:56:52] <Bytram> http://tinyurl.com
[00:56:53] <n1> and he's economics editor for the bbc
[00:56:55] <Scruffy> ^ 03Viagra makes it HARD for malaria, bug-boffins discover • The Register ( http://m.theregister.co.uk )
[00:57:27] <n1> Bytram, are you thinking of using that story?
[00:57:33] * Bytram was reviewing an uncharacteristically short story submission, ostensibly from gewg_
[00:57:54] <n1> takyon mentioned it earlier, we both thought it was not very interesting
[00:58:01] <takyon> it's also days old now
[00:58:08] <Bytram> I dunno, just looked at it and was confused when I saw how short it was... I thought "that's not OUR gewg_"
[00:58:13] <takyon> crusty stale Gates Foundation gets you hard to fight malaria jokes
[00:58:24] <Bytram> but, a look at a couple ipids and it looked legit.
[00:58:46] <Bytram> I don't click on shortenend links as a matter of principle, so I let our bots do it for me, here, to see what it was about.
[00:59:03] <Bytram> that's as far as I got, so far.
[01:00:45] <takyon> how does poll work
[01:01:03] <Bytram> you click choices and we add 'em up.
[01:01:08] <Bytram> ;)
[01:03:01] <Bytram> I just ran a new one on prod, and the one on dev no longer seems to work... (I submitted a bug on that) so it makes it a bit hard to play with it.
[01:03:10] <Bytram> not terribly complicated.
[01:03:32] <Bytram> takyon: can you get to the staff SN site?
[01:04:00] <takyon> ok
[01:04:28] <takyon> i'm there
[01:30:58] <Bytram> back in a bit
[01:38:10] <Bytram> backj
[01:52:53] Bytram is now known as bytram
[12:16:35] <Bytram> n1: ping!
[12:17:24] <Bytram> good morning!
[12:17:31] <Bytram> I was about to push out your story on UK selling off unused IPv4 addresses and noticed you were editing it? Isn't that your submission, too?
[12:21:52] <n1> not editing it
[12:22:12] <n1> i might have previewed it to check the link was good
[12:22:50] <n1> sometimes when submitting stories at 4am i forget to put a link for TFA
[12:24:03] <Bytram> ah! that's it! I figured it was something like that!
[12:24:07] <Bytram> what time is it now for you?
[12:24:28] <n1> now it's 13:24
[12:24:51] <Bytram> do you have daylight saving time in effect?
[12:25:10] <n1> i believe so
[12:25:20] * Bytram has a custom sidebar with 5 analog&digital clocks, one of which is GMT
[12:25:37] * Bytram clarifies that it is on his web browser
[12:26:06] * Bytram feels like he is in the newsroom of a major newspaper with clocks in all the major time zones! =)
[12:26:13] <n1> lol
[12:26:22] <Bytram> n1: thanks a bunch for writing up all those submissions!
[12:26:35] <n1> write is kind of strong, but you know, found them :p
[12:27:03] <n1> i'd spread them out though, as 3 are sourced from bbc
[12:27:13] * Bytram glances over and sees the time in: GMT, New York, Los Angeles, Victoria (Australia), and New Zealand
[12:27:28] <n1> but thats the original source, other minor outlets have run the bbc stories
[12:27:46] <Bytram> yes, I try to not run several stories in a row from the same author... didn't think to watch for same *sources* -- thanks for the heads up!
[12:27:53] <Bytram> nod nod
[12:28:23] * n1 is pondering a journal post today
[12:28:36] * Bytram just remembered that he forgot to add a dept line to a story... brb
[12:29:10] <n1> got any plans for today, Bytram?
[12:30:00] <Bytram> yep, shower and all that, meet with some friends in a couple hours, BBQ, get together with some other friends, nap, another gathering, sleep.
[12:30:06] <Bytram> oh, and do some more testing on SN!
[12:30:12] <Bytram> how about you?
[12:30:25] -!- janrinok [janrinok!~janrinok@Soylent/Staff/Editor/janrinok] has joined #editorial
[12:30:25] -!- mode/#editorial [+v janrinok] by SkyNet
[12:30:31] <n1> sounds like a busy day!
[12:30:32] * Bytram struggles to come up with a 'dept' for the Prostate Cancer story.
[12:30:41] <janrinok> hi Bytram
[12:30:47] <janrinok> hi n1
[12:30:53] <n1> g'day janrinok
[12:31:00] <Bytram> janrinok: ahoy!
[12:31:14] <janrinok> Bytram: "down-the-tubes"
[12:31:17] <Bytram> I think I've got it; maybe it's too obtuse?
[12:31:19] <Bytram> don't take it 'lying down'
[12:31:28] <Bytram> prostate != prostrate
[12:32:08] <Bytram> *crickets* -- must be pretty bad, then.
[12:32:20] <n1> they always are
[12:32:26] <janrinok> no - I didn't realised that you were waiting for approval
[12:32:26] <Bytram> LOL!
[12:32:41] <Bytram> just soliciting opinion, feedback.
[12:33:17] <janrinok> anyway, while I think on that, everbody here OK?
[12:33:18] <Bytram> janrinok: I like your dept idea better
[12:33:22] <n1> feedback is go with whatever, i always get it wrong
[12:33:31] <n1> to me, the best dept. titles are the ones most people wont get
[12:33:58] <janrinok> I often hate dept titles or, more correctly, trying to think of a good one
[12:34:26] <n1> it can be very difficult sometimes
[12:35:02] <Bytram> I remember I ran a poll several months ago about favorite debugging tool, and one of the last choices was "N,N-Diethyl-meta-toluamide"
[12:35:31] <janrinok> very good - but how many understood it?
[12:35:36] * n1 doesn't
[12:35:38] <Bytram> It took about a day or so for someone to realize it was also known as DEET -- a very popular bug repellent
[12:35:42] <n1> but that means it's a good one.
[12:35:52] <Bytram> got some good responses on THAT one!
[12:35:59] <Bytram> yuppers!
[12:36:26] <janrinok> well deserved
[12:37:02] <Bytram> it's one of those things where I came up with the 'hook' first, and then thought of how that I could work that into something.
[12:37:26] <janrinok> too much brain power required for me!
[12:37:43] <janrinok> I appreciate them, but I hate trying to think of them
[12:37:59] <Bytram> nah, my brain naturally 'spiders' with malapropisms and the like, and I get great mirth 'running with it' and seeing what develops
[12:38:00] <n1> i hate staring at that blank text box in frustration
[12:38:23] <n1> 'why cant i be witty on demand damn it?!'
[12:38:26] <Bytram> same here... sometimes the Muses are with me and sometimes they are arrayed against me
[12:38:36] <Bytram> that sounds like a primo dept line!
[12:38:51] <Bytram> I lok forward to seeing it in a story, soo!
[12:38:55] <Bytram> I lok forward to seeing it in a story, soon!
[12:39:03] <n1> it'll get there, just for you ;)
[12:39:06] <janrinok> I lok forward too
[12:39:37] <Bytram> here comes a groaner on the next story I'm pushing out... hold on for a bit while I finish it up.
[12:39:43] <janrinok> you have caught janrinok's syndrome - fingers disconnected from brain
[12:40:11] <Bytram> like "ready, shoot, aim"?
[12:40:41] <janrinok> lol
[12:41:46] * Bytram forgot to set date/time
[12:42:26] * Bytram hits preview
[12:42:33] * Bytram hits submit
[12:42:44] <Bytram> https://soylentnews.org
[12:42:45] <Scruffy> ^ 03Error
[12:43:01] <n1> nice
[12:43:08] <Bytram> I guess ACs can't see future stories?
[12:43:38] <Bytram> was gonna be just 'passing interest' but I couldn't resist the temptation to include the pile-of-poo glyph.
[12:44:21] <janrinok> I see 'passing-interest-in' - but no glyph
[12:44:23] <n1> i like it
[12:44:49] <Bytram> I have a question, while I've got the both of you here... on the main page under 'Navigation' slashbox is a link to 'Authors'...
[12:45:08] <Bytram> I don't know about you, but I feel more like an 'Editor' than an 'Author' -- curious as to your thoughts.
[12:45:39] <n1> agree
[12:45:59] <janrinok> Yes, you are correct, but I think it is legacy. The way we operate now should be author, but /. used to do things differently at first
[12:46:18] <janrinok> sry - should be 'editor' - doh
[12:46:32] <Bytram> now, I can see that, *maybe*, some time in the *future*, things *might* be different, but for the foreseeable future, it just doesn't 'feel' right to me.
[12:47:00] <janrinok> I think it has been reported once as a bug, but not a very important one
[12:47:22] <Bytram> and if even if we become *HUGE*, we'd still need editors anyway.
[12:47:26] <janrinok> but it looks like a 5 minute job, so should be tidied up if we can
[12:47:29] <n1> i'd say 'Hacks' would be more appropriate
[12:47:34] <janrinok> lol
[12:47:34] <n1> but thats just me :p
[12:47:41] <janrinok> us both!
[12:48:16] <Bytram> that was my thought, as well... should be an easy fix. Hmmm, I think I know where it might be in the 'code' (actually it's prolly an entry in the DB)... I'm off to take a look.
[12:48:19] <Bytram> back in a bit
[12:49:00] <n1> need some food
[12:50:16] <Bytram> might not be so easy... a quick grep -irl revealed 131 files.
[12:50:39] <janrinok> lol
[12:50:56] <Bytram> case sensitive match found 'only' 54 files... Much better! :/
[12:51:30] <janrinok> It's only the displayed word that needs to be changed, the files associated with it can be called whatever
[12:51:43] <n1> mhm
[12:52:13] <janrinok> but .... sometime in the future someone will ask "Why is it 'Editors' when the files are called Authors?
[12:52:43] <Bytram> there's also this page: https://soylentnews.org
[12:52:43] <Scruffy> ^✓ 03SoylentNews: Authors
[12:53:00] <Bytram> which needs to have the HTML page title changed, as well as the header, too.
[12:53:11] <n1> but if it stays as authors except on display
[12:53:18] <janrinok> Yeah, it's just become a 10-minute job :)
[12:53:21] <n1> when it does need changing back, it wont be any work
[12:53:57] * janrinok thought that there must have been a reason why it hadn't been done
[12:54:54] <janrinok> well, I blame QA, he/they should have spotted that long ago
[12:55:29] <n1> quite right
[12:55:45] <janrinok> at last - something that isn't 'my fault'
[12:56:08] <Bytram> Oh, I noticed it a week or so after posting my first story! Just because I didn't *tell* you, doesn't mean I didn't *notice*
[12:56:15] * Bytram has lots more up his sleeve
[12:56:26] <n1> lol
[12:56:30] <janrinok> slippery little customer isn't he, n1?
[12:56:51] <n1> thats why we must resort to getting one over on him in his absence
[12:56:55] <Bytram> This seems to be the main culprit: slashcode-master/themes/slashcode/htdocs/authors.pl
[12:56:56] <janrinok> well, who let the error get through to release then?
[12:57:26] <Bytram> I'll be it was one of those Soylents!
[12:58:46] <janrinok> I've become very enthusiastic about Takyon's greasemonkey script!
[12:59:07] <n1> i should probably try it out today
[12:59:33] <Bytram> coffee++ # biab
[12:59:33] <Bender> karma - coffee: 7
[12:59:43] <janrinok> I hadn't used greasemonkey, so I had to do some digging to find out how to install it, but, once known it is a simple job
[12:59:59] <janrinok> tea++
[12:59:59] <Bender> karma - tea: 5
[13:00:20] <Bytram> http://go.theregister.com
[13:00:22] <Scruffy> ^ 03Factory reset memory wipe FAILS in 500 MEELLION Android mobes • The Register ( http://www.theregister.co.uk )
[13:00:34] * Bytram saw that story on Ars, too.
[13:00:54] <n1> im shocked
[13:00:57] <n1> SHOCKED I SAY!
[13:01:43] <janrinok> we still only use traditional landline - you can't get big button smart phones so they are no use to S
[13:02:04] <n1> cant get a smartphone with buttons.
[13:02:11] <n1> as i have complained about countless times here
[13:02:17] <janrinok> well, I was correct then ;)
[13:02:32] <n1> i had to get a samsung galaxy s relay from the USA
[13:02:37] <n1> because you cant buy a smartphone with buttons
[13:02:41] <n1> and i refuse to use touchscreens
[13:03:17] <janrinok> I read about a medical team testing the touchscreens - the germs and nasties that they found was a bit off-putting
[13:03:38] <janrinok> but I suppose the same bad things lurk on any phone
[13:03:47] * Bytram smiles at his trusty, banged-up, but keyboard-blessed blackberry
[13:04:07] <n1> i just like some tactile feedback when typing
[13:04:14] <janrinok> In English English - banged up can also mean pregnant!
[13:04:45] * Bytram rummages around for some spray disinfectant
[13:05:21] * Bytram looks for a tell-tale bulge... looks safe, so far!
[13:05:50] <n1> lol
[13:06:11] <janrinok> Bytram: I've just found a 3-line url in the cute or creepy story - I've reduced it to a 40 character or so version
[13:06:12] <Bytram> As I feared, the terms 'Editor' and 'Author' are used variously throughout the site; sometimes synonymously, other times not. :(
[13:06:24] <Bytram> YAY! Be my guest!
[13:06:44] <Bytram> that would be the goog link to the goog patent, I bet.
[13:07:04] <janrinok> yep
[13:07:20] <Bytram> janrinok: that's a great catch... I saw it, and then forgot to go back and do something about it. Thanks!
[13:07:28] <janrinok> it also included your shoe size, inside leg measurement, and I think your date of birth
[13:08:03] * Bytram glances around nervously for any hidden devices
[13:08:23] <janrinok> you haven't got a creepy teddy bear with a tape measure have you?
[13:08:57] <Bytram> not I
[13:09:12] <janrinok> we're doing a good job on the stories list - it will give cmn, ch, and takyon a bit of a break
[13:09:30] <Bytram> nod nod
[13:09:42] <janrinok> well I say 'we', but I actually mean you 2
[13:10:00] <n1> is all teamwork
[13:10:04] <Bytram> janrinok: It was a brilliant idea (yours, I think) to fill up the weekend time slots to draw down the sub queue to encourage more subs
[13:10:27] <janrinok> do I _have_ brilliant ideas? I don't think so
[13:10:41] <Bytram> what I would *LOVE* to see is some way to make it easier for the community to submit stories.
[13:10:44] <janrinok> normally just random mumblings
[13:11:02] <Bytram> An addon would be the most obvious choice.
[13:11:06] <n1> Bytram, i agree, but also, i recall there is a bot in #Soylent that you can use to submit stories
[13:11:10] <n1> and yet even for some of us on here
[13:11:13] <n1> that is too much like hard work
[13:11:20] <janrinok> I'm not sure what could be simplified - the current page isn't exactly difficult
[13:11:22] <Bytram> Oh, I bet this would be an interesting story on SN... click click click... submit
[13:11:45] <n1> all you have to do for the but is ~submit <url> (or something like that)
[13:11:52] <n1> but no, thats like effort.
[13:11:53] <janrinok> Can you imagine the editing job that we would be left with?
[13:12:19] <n1> not something i'd look forward to
[13:12:21] <Bytram> IOW, while I am reading a story on SomeOtherSite, I could just activate an addon to capture some stuff and make it a simple, snip snip of extra stuff, and hit click to submit.
[13:12:28] <n1> but prefer it over 0 useful submissions
[13:13:08] <n1> i like that idea
[13:13:08] <janrinok> how about a story parser - receives a URL, finds the text and any links it contains, and formats it?
[13:13:27] <janrinok> we just cut out the bits we don't need
[13:13:39] <n1> i think any way we can make it easier and give more ways to submit, is going to help
[13:13:40] <Bytram> OH! /me likes that idea!
[13:13:45] <janrinok> brb - time for tea
[13:13:58] <n1> i agree with you, Bytram, although the submissions process is quite simple now
[13:14:08] <n1> i stil get tripped up every time by missing something
[13:15:59] <Bytram> I often disagree with Joel Spoksky, but this article of his is absolutely *insightful*: http://www.joelonsoftware.com
[13:16:00] <Scruffy> ^ 03Strategy Letter V - Joel on Software
[13:16:17] <Bytram> In short: "commoditize your complement"
[13:16:47] <Bytram> make it as easy, cheap, painless as possible to do the stuff that makes your stuff shine
[13:17:16] <Bytram> afk, biab
[13:17:28] <n1> k
[13:17:41] <n1> food time for me, bbq beef sandwich coming up
[13:18:53] <janrinok> I could write a story parser - theoretially - in Python but it would take me a while to do the same in PERL
[13:21:52] <janrinok> Bytram: n1: Did you see the suggestion the other day about allowing the community to moderate and/or help edit the submissions and, if so, what are your views? I'll keep mine to myself until I hear what you have to say
[13:22:04] <Bytram> I wouldn't be surprised if there were a perl module on CPAN which does that alrady.
[13:22:29] <Bytram> janrinok: didn't see it, but I was a very occasional user of the /. firehose which supported that very thing
[13:22:34] <janrinok> There is a parser, but you still have to decide what is story and what is rubbish
[13:22:57] <Bytram> well, not edit it, but up/down vote and comment on it
[13:22:57] <janrinok> OK, I'll wait until n1 speaks before I say anything
[13:25:04] <janrinok> n1: see my comment at 21 minutes past ^
[13:28:39] <paulej72> people want to vote on subs but we barely have enough to fill the queue let alone having the community down vote ones into oblivion
[13:28:54] <janrinok> thx for your input paulej72
[13:31:20] <Bytram> paulej72: excellent point -- my thanks as well.
[13:31:35] * Bytram looks some more for a perl module that scrapes text from a web page
[13:31:53] <janrinok> Bytram: look for BeautifulSoup
[13:32:48] <paulej72> scraping text from a web page is easy, scraping a good legible summary from a webpage is unbelievable hard
[13:33:24] <janrinok> yeah, my experience too. I can extract URLs quickly, but analysing what is left is not so simple
[13:34:22] <janrinok> But I'll give it some more thought in Python. libxml works well, even for HTML, and I haven't tried to separate story from dross before
[13:34:31] <n1> on the above
[13:34:38] <janrinok> k
[13:34:46] <n1> with the size of the community as it stands, i dont think it would be a good idea yet
[13:35:26] <n1> with the number of submissions and active users, i imagine it would either be crickets all round, or everything interesting would happen there and the final story would be 'meh'
[13:35:30] <n1> if you get what i mean
[13:36:34] <n1> if we were sitting on 100 submissions all the time
[13:36:37] <n1> it would be a good idea
[13:36:41] <Bytram> n1: all interesting stuff happening there -- good point!
[13:36:43] <Bytram> I've got to head out soon, but I am growing increasingly certain that it is important that we make it as easy as possible for the community to submit good stories
[13:36:48] <janrinok> OK, my views tend to be a bit negative on this. Firstly, it becomes another vector for trolls to attack the site by spoiling the subs or hiding unwanted urls. Secondly, it will enable people to supress stories with which they do not agree - gewg and Pickens would be wiped out - and thirdly, it doesn't reduce our workload. We would still have to do the whole editing bit
[13:37:04] <n1> thats basically my perspective also
[13:37:15] <Bytram> yes, I'm not for it at the moment...
[13:37:40] <Bytram> if we have hundreds of stories coming at us each day, then that *would* be useful... but as it now stands, I think it's overkill.
[13:37:46] <janrinok> I suggested that if people want to edit - they join us a chip in a couple of stories a week or whatever
[13:37:52] <n1> if anything it would increase our workload, janrinok
[13:38:07] <janrinok> and chip in*
[13:38:10] <n1> as we'd end up having to try and please everyone that but their 2c in before it got to us
[13:38:20] <janrinok> true
[13:38:40] <n1> and it could discourage people from submitting, if they think it will be butchered by the community with an agenda before it reaches the front page
[13:38:54] <n1> similar to what you're saying about gewg and pickens
[13:38:56] <janrinok> but I had to ask, because I don't feel that it is my right to bin the idea out of hand
[13:39:22] <n1> if we get to the point where there's more submissions than we can handle, it could help
[13:39:24] <Bytram> I'd say, table it for now, but reserve consideration of it in the future.
[13:39:24] <janrinok> at least I can now say that we have considered it
[13:39:28] <n1> to see where the interest is
[13:39:36] <n1> which stories should get pushed first
[13:40:08] <Bytram> then again, if we get to the point that we have too many stories to track, that's when Nexuses become much more useful.
[13:40:08] <janrinok> I think half of this weekend's stories came from editors
[13:40:45] <n1> which i think goes to show why for now, that idea isnt going to really help anyone
[13:40:51] <Bytram> nod nod
[13:41:03] <Bytram> hmmm, has anyone seen TMB around lately?
[13:41:12] <janrinok> so the next question is - how do we encourage people to submit, other than by doing more of what we are already doing?
[13:41:14] * Bytram wonders how things are going for him after his move
[13:41:32] <n1> last i saw was a few days ago saying about how systemd had been causing him some troubles
[13:41:52] <Bytram> LOL!
[13:42:09] <janrinok> his move went well evenutally, and he likes the fishing in the new loc. He took a break in Texas, but I've not seen him since systemd struck
[13:42:10] * Bytram would love to see him write an article about his experiences with it!
[13:42:22] <Bytram> got it. thanks!
[13:42:36] <janrinok> he is not a systemd lover
[13:42:55] <n1> janrinok, i really dont know how to get people to submit stories
[13:43:20] <n1> in a lot of ways, theres not much we can do, as it's the problem with the other outlets having a shit signal:noise
[13:43:24] <janrinok> well Bytram's idea of making it easier seems the only answer - but that isn't as simple as it seems
[13:43:33] <n1> making it increasingly hard to find 'good' or 'real' stories, in my opinion
[13:43:52] <n1> making it easier is about all that can be done on our end
[13:44:15] <janrinok> rss-bot is good but for some reason it is not well used. Perhaps if we had an automatic web page output it would help?
[13:44:36] <Bytram> heck, just a 'drag-select' of text on a web page, hit a hot-key, and have it prefill a submission with the page title and that text as the story along with the user's nick would go a long ways
[13:44:36] <janrinok> e.g. change the format from irc to html
[13:44:52] <janrinok> I could live with that
[13:45:05] <Bytram> a prior discussion suggested it would not be hard to grab the same kind of info and throw it into a table in the SN DB
[13:45:07] * janrinok thinks that some already do that!
[13:46:15] <Bytram> then could have a story submission page on the site which would let you scan through, find an interesting story, and select bits of it for submission.
[13:46:21] <janrinok> I think the url is the bit that we need - we can try to automate the scraping but, at a push, we can cut and paste ourselves
[13:47:57] <janrinok> the first stage - just my thoughts - is we/community need to select the good stories from rss-bot, then scrape the story from what that gives, then we edit for the front page
[13:48:01] <Bytram> well, once they select an entry from the story list we pulled from the DB, we already *have* the URL the story came from.
[13:49:04] <janrinok> PERL/BeautifulSoup and python-lxml will do the raw analysis but I'll have to look at how we select the story and not the dross that surrounds it
[13:50:04] <Bytram> maybe retrieve the URL's contents and display that in an iframe (shudder) where the user can then copy/paste into the submission form?
[13:51:24] <Bytram> even if it doesn't do *everything*, if we can make it, say, 50% easier, that's got to help! Get the computer to do the menial stuff and leave the smarts to the humans to fill in the gaps
[13:51:30] <janrinok> anything that we ask the user to do seems to be almost too much effort. I mean, they can do essentially that now. If it needs an add-on for the browser you have to look at supporting how many browsers?
[13:51:53] <janrinok> Bytram: agreed
[13:51:55] <Bytram> as we gain in experience, we can automagicate more and more of it.
[13:52:49] <janrinok> I would like to try rss-bot on a web page but don't know enough about how to go about it. Does anyone know if it is a big job or a do-able job?
[13:53:16] <janrinok> only a handful of people bother to look at irc
[13:53:40] <Bytram> I've given it a bit of thought... it's not hard to format as entries in a table.
[13:53:43] <Bytram> [ForbesTech] - 'Destiny' Has A Secret Club For The Best Players In 'Trials Of Osiris' - http://www.forbes.com
[13:53:44] <Scruffy> ^ 03'Destiny' Has A Secret Club For The Best Players In 'Trials Of Osiris' - Forbes
[13:54:23] <janrinok> hell, we've already got bots that do most of the work, we just need to output it in html
[13:54:42] <paulej72> bender could probably output html easily enough
[13:55:31] <janrinok> paulej72: I'm trying not to put too much of a burden on you guys - is that an easy thing or a significant job?
[13:55:42] <Bytram> <tr><td class="rss_date_time">2015-05-22 09:53:12</td><td class='source_shortname">ForbesTech</td><td class="story_title">'Destiny' Has A Secret Club For The Best Players In 'Trials Of Osiris'</td><td class="story_URL">http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2015/05/23/destiny-has-a-secret-club-for-the-best-players-in-trials-of-osiris/</td></tr>
[13:56:22] <Bytram> hmmm, make that story_URL an actual <a href="..."> </a>
[13:57:22] <Bytram> in my dreams, I'd like to be able to do a search on text and show/hide all records that do/donot contain a string or pattern
[13:58:06] <Bytram> so, I see a story about, say, 'teddy bear' (that google story I just pushed out)
[13:58:45] <janrinok> well I can do that easily enough in Python - my PERL-foo is weak at the moment
[13:58:46] <Bytram> I could restrict the view to show me all stories that DO match "/teddy bear/i" and see if I can find other and/or better sources
[13:59:09] <paulej72> not sure how easy, it would need to look at the code
[13:59:15] <Bytram> or, hide all records that DO NOT match 'bear'
[13:59:52] <Bytram> I already regulary use some javscript to sort records in a table by clicking on the TH
[14:00:06] <Bytram> stderr helped me a while back and wrote some js that
[14:00:22] <Bytram> did the matching stuff, but I never got it to work quite the way I wanted it to. :/
[14:01:13] <Bytram> the table sorting is done by a simple js function: tablesorter()
[14:01:40] <paulej72> jquery and datatables
[14:01:54] <Bytram> yeah, it uses jquery to do some of the work
[14:02:03] <Bytram> but we already use that on our site.
[14:03:02] <Bytram> aha! here's where I got it from:
[14:03:03] <Bytram> "https://github.com/christianbach/tablesorter/archive/master.zip"
[14:03:46] <Bytram> and here is a simple example from one of my files:
[14:03:46] <Bytram> <script type="text/javascript">
[14:03:47] <Bytram> $(document).ready(function() {
[14:03:47] <Bytram> // call the tablesorter plugin:
[14:03:47] <Bytram> $("#myTable").tablesorter({
[14:03:47] <Bytram> // To sort on the first column (ascending) and third column (descending):
[14:03:48] <Bytram> // sortList: [[0,0],[2,1]]
[14:03:50] <Bytram> //
[14:03:52] <Bytram> // Sort on the first column, order ascending:
[14:03:54] <Bytram> sortList: [[0,0]]
[14:03:56] <Bytram> });
[14:03:58] <Bytram> });
[14:04:06] <Bytram> only need to put an id="myTable" on the table and voila!
[14:04:52] <Bytram> the only other thing that I forgot to mention would be a couple more buttons:
[14:05:12] <Bytram> 1.) Refresh (to load more data from the DB)
[14:05:41] <Bytram> 2.) Reset (Clear out search restrictions and show the whole rss feed)
[14:06:19] <Bytram> if I do NOT reset, and DO refresh, then any other newly arrived stories that match my search would also get displayed.
[14:06:39] <janrinok> brb-5
[14:07:09] <Bytram> Ideally, each nick could select rss feeds that they like to follow/ignore and we would restrict the feed list, accordingly
[14:07:41] <Bytram> e.g., I don't much care for the hackernews feeds in #rss-bot, so I'd like to add that feed to a black list
[14:07:54] <Bytram> or, I might find a feed that we do not have, and would like to add it to a whitelist
[14:09:53] <Bytram> Food for thought, and again, be sure to read that spolsky article I linked to above (Strategy Letter V) which explains incredibly well the power of 'Commoditize Your Complement'
[14:10:24] <Bytram> okay, I gots to get going here. I'll check back in a half hour or so and then need to head out the door.
[14:10:28] <Bytram> afk
[14:12:35] <janrinok> by Bytram
[14:15:36] <n1> laters Bytram
[14:15:51] <Bytram> for further ideas, take a look at the log of #rss-bot, for example: http://logs.sylnt.us
[14:15:52] <Scruffy> ^ 03#rss-bot | Logs for 2015-05-23
[14:16:12] <n1> figure should do some work for a while, as i'm waiting for arma3 to download/install
[14:16:15] <n1> :(
[14:16:29] <Bytram> what is arma3?
[14:16:37] * Bytram thinks it sounds like armageddon
[14:16:39] <n1> is a 'game'
[14:17:16] <Bytram> kthnx
[14:17:32] <n1> 'ARMA (stylized as ARMA) is a first person tactical military shooter on the PC with large elements of realism and simulation. This game features a blend of large-scale military conflict spread across large areas alongside the more close quartered battles.'
[14:17:58] <Bytram> interesting!
[14:19:42] <n1> it takes the fun out of first-person shooters :p
[14:19:47] <Bytram> lol
[14:19:54] * Bytram is drawing a blank
[14:20:23] <Bytram> what is the name of the thing that lets one dynamically retrieve content into a web page? HTPPRequest or something like that?
[14:20:50] <Bytram> I think Microsoft was the first to implement it
[14:20:52] * janrinok shrugs shoulders in bafflement
[14:21:09] <n1> not a clue
[14:22:42] <Bytram> there's a toggle on the submissions page to 'Enable Bin Refresh' which I /suspect/ might make use of it.
[14:26:39] <Bytram> hmm, AJAX?
[14:27:58] <Bytram> http://feeds.sciencedaily.com
[14:28:00] <Scruffy> ^ 03( http://www.sciencedaily.com )
[14:28:08] <Bytram> http://www.sciencedaily.com
[14:38:25] <janrinok> does our site use AJAX?
[14:38:33] <Bytram> idunno
[14:43:46] <Bytram> ISTR that we do not. We do have some dynamic stuff available on the comments pages, but I *think* that's all done with CSS, because some folks, like myself, prefer to not have to load JS in order to see a page.
[14:49:24] * Bytram thinks he can figure out how to do what he wants using FRAME and/or IFRAME, but that is deprecated as it messes with a user's back button.
[14:49:31] <Bytram> okay, afk
[14:50:00] <n1> frame/iframe wont win you any fans
[14:50:06] <n1> take care, Bytram
[14:54:53] <n1> on my trying out ecommerce solutions i was shocked to find that payment portals are all up for using iframes.
[14:56:10] <Bytram> n1: thanks for the confirmation. I was against the idea myself, but it helps convey what I *want* to do.
[14:56:16] <Bytram> afk
[15:07:23] <Bytram> AHA! This is what I was trying to remember: https://en.wikipedia.org
[15:07:24] <Scruffy> ^ 03Wiki: XMLHttpRequest
[15:12:13] <janrinok> well done - I've got a working python bot now :)
[15:15:33] <n1> what does it do?
[15:16:34] <janrinok> it gives me the output of rss-bot so that I can now start diseccting the lines and trying to scrape the url automatically
[15:17:59] <Bytram> janrinok++
[15:17:59] <Bender> karma - janrinok: 26
[15:18:23] * Bytram is not faring so well... from the wiki page on XMLHttpRequest: For security reasons, XMLHttpRequest requests follow the browser's same-origin policy, and will therefore only succeed if they are made to the host that served the original web page.
[15:18:56] <janrinok> sry - I read that as 'is not farting so well'
[15:19:04] <Bytram> so, that would require SN to pull down and cache the requested page so that the user's browser could then access it.
[15:19:09] <Bytram> Phhhhpbt
[15:19:12] <Bytram> =)
[15:19:40] * Bytram suspects that janrinok got an early read on that methane-powered bus story!
[15:19:46] <janrinok> lol
[15:23:18] <Bytram> janrinok: though I suspect you've done this already, I'd encourage you to encapsulate the retrieval of the #rss-bot feed into a function so that you could, at a later time, use a different source of the same info. Return the data as a 'structure' or what ever it is called in python.
[15:23:38] <janrinok> done - but thanks
[15:24:12] <Bytram> I figured as much, but... just in case. /me doffs his QA hat
[15:38:02] <CoolHand> janrinok
[15:38:37] janrinok is now known as janrinok|afk
[15:38:47] <janrinok|afk> hi CoolHand
[15:39:34] <Bytram> janrinok|afk: got a question for you over there
[15:42:15] <CoolHand> i'll let you go jan... didn't mean to disturb u
[15:42:32] <CoolHand> just saying hi and was gonna see what all happened with the big editing uprising..
[15:42:38] <CoolHand> but been reading scrollback
[15:43:02] <CoolHand> thanks everyone for filling up the w/e queue so much! I expected to have to do a lot of work this morning, but it's all full :)
[15:43:43] <janrinok|afk> CoolHand: just give me 10 to avoid burning dinner and I will be back
[18:19:49] janrinok|afk is now known as janrinok
[19:51:59] <Bytram> janrinok: I was wondering how things were going with your #rss-bot tool? Anything I can do to help?
[19:52:20] * Bytram is pretty good at parsing out structure from raw data
[19:53:03] <janrinok> no I've got it working ie. receiving the data, and it looks like it should be possible to strip out <p></p> to get the text in most stories
[19:53:21] <janrinok> been short of time over the last few hours though :)
[19:53:28] <Bytram> receiving the data from just the feed?
[19:53:32] <Bytram> understood
[19:53:41] <Bytram> or from the linked-to stories
[19:53:58] <janrinok> yes, I split it up into sections, but I've decided to leave it now until tomorrow and it is late evening here
[19:53:59] * n1 is back from lidl with some irish cream
[19:54:20] <Bytram> janrinok: I figured as much, but wanted to offer a hand if you were still working at it
[19:54:38] <Bytram> n1: lidl?
[19:55:00] <Bytram> and by 'Irish Creme', I take it to mean a licquor?
[19:55:04] <janrinok> I've got the story html split using libxml. That gives you tags and their content. It looks reasonably simple to strip out the bits I want _if_ all stories behave the same
[19:55:59] <Bytram> they prolly won't. at least that's been my experience. just makes sure there's an intermediary level which takes an arg that identifies which 'parser' to use.
[19:56:39] <janrinok> yes, that would be useful. I've got the data in an etree, so it is very easy to extract data from that.
[19:57:01] <n1> i do indeed, Bytram
[19:57:03] <Bytram> then, parse_type = function(URL); strip_text(URL, parse_type); or something like that
[19:57:16] <Bytram> janrinok: beautiful!
[19:57:57] <janrinok> that's it. I've got to start work on the individual parsers and see how much common ground there is, and how much code can be reused
[19:58:46] <Bytram> I've got like 10 years of HTML that I would D/L each week from my job's HR stuff. Payroll advice, sales productivity, and all that.
[19:58:52] <Bytram> formats have changed over the years.
[19:59:10] * Bytram has scun his knuckles a great many times learning that trick!
[19:59:21] <Bytram> s/skun/skinned/
[19:59:37] <Bytram> anyway, good show!
[19:59:37] <janrinok> well, I've looked at perhaps 6 or 7 stories from rss-bot and they are remarkably similar around the bit we want to have, although they plaster unwanted crap all over the place
[20:00:50] <janrinok> time for me to be off to my bed, after putting S comfy for the night
[20:00:59] <janrinok> see you guys tomorrow
[20:02:12] <Bytram> janrinok: and a good night's sleep to you both!
[20:02:19] <janrinok> by the way, EthFueled recommmends that we go ahead with sigma's latest post, but I would rather someone other than myself processes it
[20:02:25] * Bytram is proud to consider janrinok a friend.
[20:02:28] <Bytram> janrinok++
[20:02:28] <Bender> karma - janrinok: 27
[20:02:48] <janrinok> likewise, who opened the bag of onions....
[20:03:03] <Bytram> btw, before you go?
[20:03:07] <janrinok> bye
[20:03:09] -!- janrinok has quit [Quit: leaving]
[20:03:10] <Bytram> what about the story submission from sigma?
[20:11:40] <n1> its a tough one really
[20:11:43] <n1> i can go either way on it
[20:58:29] <Bytram> n1: I pushed out that story to appear 24hr after J's
[20:59:04] <Bytram> I think the last question is a false dichotomy, but that story is *exactly* as it was submitted.
[20:59:29] <n1> just finished cooking
[21:00:11] <Bytram> we edit submissions to meet the community's expectations of suitability, as outlined in our editing process: http://wiki.soylentnews.org
[21:00:11] <Scruffy> ^✓ 03Wiki: Editing Process ( http://wiki.soylentnews.org )
[21:01:21] <n1> i agree about it being a false dichotomy
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