#editorial | Logs for 2014-03-22
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[16:10:46] <janrinok> hi
[16:39:27] <n_x6> hey janrinok
[16:39:30] n_x6 is now known as n1
[17:33:54] <janrinok> n_x6 you still around?
[17:34:23] <janrinok> n1 you still around?
[17:34:58] <n1> yeah
[17:35:38] <janrinok> hows things?
[17:36:22] <n1> up and down, but i can't really complain. work stopping me from thinking too much.
[17:36:24] <n1> how have you been?
[17:37:16] <janrinok> v busy here. Only 2 active eds for the last week - it's beginning to wear me down a little. Did LamX get in touch yet?
[17:38:38] <n1> no he hasnt
[17:38:46] <n1> ive been viewing the site, seeing you've been working hard
[17:39:07] <n1> other eds busy with stuff?
[17:43:28] <janrinok> Sorry - news flash from the crimea. It'll be out in a few minutes.
[17:45:11] <n1> has the Snowden-NSA-Sysadmin story been submitted yet?
[17:45:30] <n1> whenever you're back, if im not here i'll only be making some dinner
[17:49:05] <janrinok> n1 - no, not seen.
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[19:40:57] <n1> ahoy
[19:44:52] <janrinok> n1 hi
[19:47:06] <n1> how goes things?
[19:47:20] <janrinok> back to the editing grindstone.
[19:47:49] <n1> i really tried to make my submission so it didnt need editing, but you know how it goes :(
[19:48:48] <janrinok> LamX has a few candidates lined up as new eds - and I know he has your name. The problem is, I suspect, that taking time away from this task to train someone up would be like tying one hand behind our backs. We are both working quite hard just to stay on top of the stories.
[19:49:08] <janrinok> I'm just working on your story now - :)
[19:49:38] <n1> i remember being in here when they were training you up, so i can fully understand that
[19:50:19] <janrinok> I'm not sure that I learnt very much!
[19:50:24] <n1> lol
[19:50:40] <janrinok> I've made all the mistakes I can think of to date, but I'm sure to find a few more...
[19:50:49] <n1> i think it's really one of those learn as you go things
[19:51:10] <janrinok> I agree - but currently it is somewhat a baptism by fire!
[19:51:38] <n1> yeah, you cant even really win to be honest
[19:51:58] <n1> someone or a group of people will always be unhappy with the editors actions
[19:52:12] <janrinok> I don't know where the others are, but there are many perfectly understandable reasons why they might be otherwise engaged. But, until they return, we'll not know.
[19:52:49] <n1> i think the solution is to have more editors than less, obviously finding appropriate candidates isnt that easy
[19:52:50] <janrinok> I try to answer sensible criticism by a written response - I have to ignore the ACs who just want to complain about something.
[19:53:25] <janrinok> We agree, but training them presents its own burden when there are only 2 eds active.
[19:54:21] <n1> also need editors also ideally need to have different areas they're knowledgeable in, as one editor may overlook a story but another who has a better understanding of the subject will publish it
[19:54:27] <n1> yeah, i totally understand that
[19:54:28] <janrinok> We need more eds, better geographic spread (and therefore tz spread) and people with at least a little spare time.
[19:54:54] <janrinok> agree with your comments re areas of expertise - another area I've made mistakes in...
[19:55:29] <n1> what sort of mistakes?
[19:55:32] <janrinok> your story is queue for release at 23:05 UTC
[19:55:54] <n1> ooo im excited!
[19:57:06] <janrinok> The problem with weekends is that there is a lull in the submissions, and lower hits on the site in general, resulting in fewer comments. But if people only submit stories during the week, we come unstuck when the weekend rolls around again.
[19:57:40] <janrinok> People spend more time on the site when they are 'working' than when at home!
[19:57:42] <n1> there's a lull in news generally also, which doesnt help
[19:58:01] <n1> not surprising really
[19:58:13] <janrinok> I'm taking a pause now before I start on tomorrow's stories - which I haven't even got yet!
[19:59:53] <janrinok> We have a submissions queue of 7 stories, or which 3 are usable unless we are backs against the wall. That means I can cover the first 4-5 - 6 hours of tomorrow before it all dries up!
[20:00:10] <janrinok> 4.5*
[20:00:53] <n1> i'll see if i can make some submissions, instead working :P
[20:01:31] <n1> got a list of the current subs?
[20:01:38] <janrinok> with around 4000 members we only need a small number of them to post 1 story per week, preferably spread across the 7 days to make this easy for everyone.
[20:03:34] <janrinok> NSA spying on Chinese (no surprise there!), the Lunar Apatite Paradox (not read it yet so I don't know what it is) and a semi-dupe that recovers an existing story about the anti-vaxxers in the USA, but does add a little new info. It will be hard to make it a story on its own.
[20:04:58] <n1> Any existing stories on "'Exploding' cancer cells: Scientists discover new way to combat the disease"
[20:05:07] <janrinok> no go ahead
[20:19:56] <n1> one more submission for you to complain about ;)
[20:20:08] <janrinok> lol thx
[20:26:22] <janrinok> n1 good article - the only changes I need to make are those caused by the submissions system over which you have no control. We are getting it changed eventually but for now we have to live with it.
[20:38:30] <n1> anyone submitted the story re toyota 1.2bn penalty?
[20:38:42] <janrinok> not yet!
[20:38:44] <n1> its like 3 days old now
[20:38:45] <n1> but still
[20:48:51] <n1> well i hope now i have doubled your usable submissions :p
[20:49:04] <janrinok> lol, you have, thx
[20:49:33] <n1> i did want to ask a question on my last submission, which i'll save for if it gets published
[20:50:13] <janrinok> I'll go read it now if you want...
[20:50:39] <n1> i'm curious as to how the government can announce a charge and that it's being deferred on an agreement with the company being charged on the same day, apparently in the same announcement.
[20:51:59] <n1> to me that says there's something seriously wrong with how the wheels of justice are turning, im imaginging PR people from DoJ and Toyota in a meeting working out how they can both 'win'
[20:53:08] <janrinok> I suspect it is a US-specific idiosyncrasy. It will have been arranged beforehand, the charge then brought, then agreement to defer if they accept responsibility (same as pleading guilty?) but pay a significant fine. I can't imagine it happening elsewhere but..... what do I know?
[20:53:15] <n1> to me, someone clearly suggested the largest fine/penalty in history in return for no actual prosecution of the criminal acts.
[20:54:30] <janrinok> its the same travesty of justice as plea bargining to me.
[20:54:57] <n1> i dont think it's the same as pleading or a plea deal guilty, as there wont be a prosecution. it's more like a 'settle out of court for a disclosed amount, with an admission of wrongdoing but not to a criminal extent'
[20:55:13] <n1> as there wont be any 'convictions' as the charges will be dropped in 3 years
[20:55:20] <janrinok> agreed, my terminology was probably wrong.
[20:55:25] <n1> with a plea deal, they still get conviction
[20:55:39] <n1> and even with a plea deal, it wouldnt be announced in the same statement as the actual charges being brought
[20:55:48] <janrinok> no usually...
[20:55:53] <janrinok> not*
[20:55:55] <n1> it neatly ties it into one bad news story
[20:56:04] <n1> if it was charges then a week later the $1.2bn
[20:56:09] <n1> it would be two dips in share prices
[20:56:18] <n1> and a week of uncertainty
[20:56:44] <janrinok> yep, your summary of it makes sense to me, but it still stinks.
[20:57:30] <n1> "Toyota Gets Prosecution Deferred, No Corporate Crime Plea, No Individuals Charges"
[20:57:48] <janrinok> Perhaps there will be a succinct and erudite comment in the thread that explains what it all means, or someone will blame the editor for a dupe or for having a private life, or something....
[20:58:15] <n1> lol
[20:58:51] <n1> i hope so, but i hope my confusion could also start or be part of an informative discussion on the subject
[20:59:48] <janrinok> we can but hope..
[21:00:14] <janrinok> But there is nothing wrong with the quality of submission.
[21:01:09] <n1> glad i could help
[21:01:52] <janrinok> I'm leaving it for an hour or two. Hopefully I can put someone else's submission in between each of yours. ;)
[21:03:49] <n1> yeah, dont want accusations of collusion between editors and submitters to push some hidden agenda furthering the economic interests of the SoylentNews dictator.
[21:04:03] <janrinok> lolol - you've got it
[21:04:47] <janrinok> If only I could get as many submissions as we have conspiracy theories, my job would be much easier...
[21:09:21] <n1> heh
[21:09:30] <n1> i dont know where people find the time for thats hit
[21:09:32] <n1> that shit
[21:11:12] <janrinok> some people want us to fail - some because they were asked to leave, some because they imagine they look intelligent by forecasting our doom and then being 'proven' to be correct, and others because that is what they do. I've stopped trying to understand it.
[21:13:06] <janrinok> brb 5
[21:14:38] <n1> I can understand people thinking that SN could fail, as with all these ventures, the odds are not in our favour.
[21:15:18] <n1> but coming to actively forecast doom, to use the site to say how it will fail is immature and pointless. if anything it's counter-productive to their ideal, it makes me even more inclined to see the site succeed.
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[21:22:10] <janrinok> back now - yes I agree but some people are like that.
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[21:23:04] <n1> the more i learn about people, the less i want to have anything to do with the vast majority lol
[21:23:36] <janrinok> Unfortunately, even our small community has a few 'odd-balls' so to speak
[21:24:23] <n1> not always a bad thing, need people on the fringes of all sides
[21:24:31] <janrinok> true
[21:24:44] <n1> if we all think the same, we wont learn anything
[21:29:39] <n1> there can be an issue with the people with the loudest voices are not necessarily the ones most deserving of being heard
[21:31:45] <janrinok> very true - and you have to be selective as to which ones you listen to. Initially, some of the criticism on the site got me down a bit, but then I realised that they would be critical regardless of what I did or didn't do. I've tried to listen to those that have a valid point but to filter out the rest. And it is not always easy to differentiate between the two.
[21:38:38] <n1> its an example of how even though everyone here was united with a common purpose of fuckbeta, it doesn't take long for people to want to find division again, something to complain about and to fight against
[21:39:59] <janrinok> takes all sorts, I suppose
[21:40:15] <n1> im not sure why people think every part of discourse needs to be adversarial
[21:40:55] <n1> there always seems to be a need for winners and losers in a debate, never trying to reach a common understanding or agreement.
[21:41:56] <janrinok> Well, being an Ed certainly makes you something of a target lol
[21:42:36] <n1> ive been really impressed with SN and its direction, at this point no one but the staff has invested enough in it to act like some people have, if you dont like it there's alternatives still, you havn't devoted 10 years of comments and submissions to this site, be civil and constructive or leave... i dont think thats an unfair position at this point
[21:43:09] <janrinok> No, that's a good attitude to have
[21:43:35] <n1> yeah, the editors got a lot of shit on the old site, it was inevitable to happen here too
[21:44:36] <n1> some will never be satisfied unless the site is edited by them and only containing the most obscure stories relating to science and programming
[21:45:21] <janrinok> I think part of it is that people don't actually know what we do - they think that they do, but if they would just try it for a short while they might change their opinions. However, in most cases, I've had loads of support from the community, so I don't plan on going anywhere soon! But I've not had a day off for over a month and I would love to have a few days chilling.
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[21:46:52] <n1> well, if the powers that be want me as an editor, i should be pretty much here for the majority of next week (things may change but my plan is to chain myself to my desk) so i can be drip fed information if necessary.
[21:48:23] <janrinok> When I cross paths with LamX again I'll see how he wants to play it. Our first priority is someone who is in a completely different tz and I know he has someone lined up for that slot. We currently have a 'dead spot' when neither of us can be near a keyboard.
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[21:50:52] <n1> my timings are highly variable depending on work, i dont really have a routine so i'm around at all hours, but inconsistently
[21:52:23] <janrinok> that could work out very well for us. I would guess that we need about 10-12 eds spread around the globe, and for 6 to be active on any one day, allowing 4 to have some down time. But that is just my feel for it.
[21:53:30] <n1> that sounds reasonable, trying to do a story an hour still or as it rolls or what?
[21:54:26] <janrinok> however suits the individual, I suppose. But certainly at a much slower pace than at present. Mistakes happen more frequently when we are rushing.
[21:55:35] <janrinok> There is no one correct way of doing this job. There are things that one must avoid and nasty poo-traps every now and then, but otherwise it is pretty much as you want it.
[21:55:50] <n1> i mean as far as schedule for publishing, every hour?
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[21:59:03] <janrinok> The system is - If we have more than 20 stories in the submissions list, releast them as they arrive. Between 10-20ish, start spreading them to cover a reasonable period because you don't know when your next submission will arrive. Less than 10, start actively chasing submissions, or start collecting stories yourself. This means you cannot edit and report, nor can you release your own stories. Spread what you have to release about e
[22:01:39] <n1> That seems logical, how many of the submissions are being accepted at the moment?
[22:01:49] <n1> like 8/10, 5/10?
[22:03:21] <janrinok> Depends, today about 60% are original stories worth putting out. Some of the others are similar submissions to others (dupes or same topic), some are spam/insults/crap and some have too much of a bias.
[22:04:48] <janrinok> A bias is OK if you can find something covering the opposite viewpoint but, when the list is low like today, you haven't got time to do lots of research. If you don't find what you want in, say, 15 minutes, you leave the sub on the queue and look for lower hanging fruit.
[22:05:06] <n1> getting some attempted advertising-as-news submissions?
[22:06:48] <janrinok> Yep - and I got bitten by one of those a few days back. It looked like a reasonable article until someone pointed out that an AC had submitted something that he was, in all likelihood, the original author of, and furthermore, when you read the submission and the linked pages the sub was not entirely honest.
[22:07:21] <n1> link?
[22:07:43] <janrinok> I think it got taken down by LamX or someone else.
[22:08:37] <janrinok> Normally, we want 2 eds to see every released story before it goes out - but currently we haven't got the resources for that luxury.
[22:09:34] <n1> it's a good way of doing it, but not always practical
[22:10:08] <janrinok> Sometimes you have to go with your gut instinct - and it cannot always be correct.
[22:10:46] <n1> we all make mistakes, we dont all admit that we do.
[22:11:12] <janrinok> You can't hide them as an Ed - the community are not slow at telling you!
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[22:11:37] <n1> the old site used to manage it by just ignoring it all
[22:12:25] <n1> so far, i think ive seen most of the staff dealing with criticism head on, and accepting responsibility if necessary
[22:12:31] <n1> its been refreshing to see it
[22:12:49] <janrinok> Yes - but we _are_ trying to meet the community's expectations and listen to feedback. You can't please everyone but when you get something wrong you've got to apologise, explain what happened, and move on.
[22:13:38] <janrinok> I'm going to have to do a bit more work and then stack for the evening. Enjoyed the chat, thanks for that.
[22:13:55] <n1> take it easy, a pleasure as always.
[22:14:08] <janrinok> cu tomorrow?
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[22:14:43] <n1> yup
[22:14:51] <n1> have a good evening :)
[22:15:00] <janrinok> have a good one yourself. cu.
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